A rough time for the Polish people.


Polish President, Others Killed in Plane Crash (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304170204575175252038977076.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection#project%3DSLIDESHOW0 8%26s%3DSB1000142405270230417020457517562250566751 4%26articleTabs%3Darticle)
APRIL 10, 2010, 10:29 A.M. ET | The Wall Street Journal (wsj.com)
By GREGORY L. WHITE in Moscow and MARCIN SOBCZYK in Warsaw

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-IC672_1polan_F_20100410055134.jpg (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304170204575175252038977076.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection#project%3DSLIDESHOW0 8%26s%3DSB1000142405270230417020457517562250566751 4%26articleTabs%3Darticle)

Polish President Lech Kaczynski and dozens of others in a high-level delegation were killed Saturday when their plane crashed on landing outside the western Russian city of Smolensk, officials said.

Russian state television reported that the Tu-154 jet crashed about a kilometer short of the runway on its fourth attempt to land in heavy fog at the Smolensk-Severnyi military airport, shortly before 11 a.m. Moscow time.

Reports of the number killed in the crash varied. Polish officials put the figure at 88, while Russia's Ministry of Emergency Situations said 96 had died and Russia's Investigative Committee said the total was 132.

"We still cannot fully understand the scope of this tragedy and what it means for us in the future," said Foreign Ministry Spokesman Piotr Paszkowski. "Nothing like this has ever happened in Poland."

"We can assume with great certainty that all persons on board have been killed."

Passengers included the president and his wife as well as other top officials. Slawomir Skrzypek, president of the National Bank of Poland, was also on board. Polish Foreign Ministry spokesman Piotr Pszkowski said that the army chief of staff and Deputy Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer were also on board the plane.

continue here (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304170204575175252038977076.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection)

http://www.wikiwak.com/image/Lech+Kaczy%C5%84ski.jpg

~String

Just wanted to post about this. When was the last time when a European government high official died due to bad weather??? Unless the Russians' hands were in it, it is a shame, like a small African or south American government would do....

Very sad , what a catastrophe to happen . My condolences to all involved. Even with the foggy conditions it would seem that planes today could land with the electronic instruments they have without any problems. I guess we will have to wait to find out what made this plane crash.

Just wanted to post about this. When was the last time when a European government high official died due to bad weather??? Unless the Russians' hands were in it, it is a shame, like a small African or south American government would do....

I read about that earlier in the yahoo news this morning. The plane happened to cut a top of a tree as it approached the airport to land.

That is sad.

I'm sure Vladimir Putin is one happy man today. Makes you wonder.

I'm sure Vladimir Putin is one happy man today. Makes you wonder.
No it doesn't.

Why is Polish history so depressing?
:bawl:

I'm sure Vladimir Putin is one happy man today. Makes you wonder.

The pilot tried to land like four times before he crashed the plane. Pretty cut and dry.

Unless the pilot was a Russian agent, or unless those pesky Russians have learned to control the weather--to the extent that they can create fog--I'm pretty sure they aren't behind this particular series of deaths.

~String

Even with the foggy conditions it would seem that planes today could land with the electronic instruments they have without any problems.


The Smolensk airfield is not equipped with an instrument landing system to guide planes to the ground.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36352097/ns/world_news-europe/page/2/




Why is Polish history so depressing?Not all of it... ...They peaked early:

Map of Poland circa 1550 (http://www.kresy.co.uk/Images/map.jpg)




Unless the Russians' hands were in it, it is a shame, like a small African or south American government would do.... Or a glorified third world sty like Russia, where the airports ain't even got a friggin' guide-beam for landing during inclement weather.
:crazy:

As for Russian involvement in the crash... ...Much as I loathe them for no good or rational reason, I doubt such is the case... ...on the other hand - this is the same "post-Soviet Russia" that tried killing former Ukranian President Viktor Yushenko with dioxin, and poisoned ex-Russian agent Alexander Litvinenko with radioactive Polonium, so who knows what the no good sons of bitches are capable of...
:mufc:

Sheesh...

My condolences to the families and a raised eyebrow http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/23.gif to the conspiracy speculators.

I read about that earlier in the yahoo news this morning. The plane happened to cut a top of a tree as it approached the airport to land.

So? That doesn't make it acceptable for a European country... We supposed to have technology and such....

Seriously, if a European country (or actually any country) in the 21st century can not afford to have at least 1 plane that can land in zero visibility, then that nation should be extinct or take the bus at least....

Why is Polish history so depressing?
:bawl:

Bad location, between 2 stronger empires...

What kind of airplane was it...

So? That doesn't make it acceptable for a European country... We supposed to have technology and such....

Seriously, if a European country (or actually any country) in the 21st century can not afford to have at least 1 plane that can land in zero visibility, then that nation should be extinct or take the bus at least....

Are European countries supposed to be immune from accident or what? :p There was heavy fog, they didn't see the tree. The airport is near forest, but supposedly some km radius around airport should be free from trees especially if it is often foggy. Anyway, when the surrounding airport is free from trees, there will always be other factors, like a slippery landing road or whatever. Accident happens.



What kind of airplane was it...

According to the link in the OP, it's a TU-154 (whatever that means :p), I guess Dywyddyr must know about this. Specifically, this is the one that carry them (from the article in the OP):

http://sg.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-IC746_PLANEC_NS_20100410163845.gif

To me, it's seems like Putins political adversaries always suffer. First it was the Ukraine, then Georgia, now Kyrgyzstan and Poland. He's the luckiest politician alive.

Sheesh...

My condolences to the families and a raised eyebrow http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/23.gif to the conspiracy speculators.Hey - I said I doubted Rooskie sabotage.

Still...this is the country that sent a submarine to plant their flag at the bottom of the ocean over the North Pole so they could claim they owned it.

I'm just sayyin' - they're wacky.





According to the link in the OP, it's a TU-154 (whatever that means :p)Tupolev-154 is the manufacturer and the aircraft model number - Like Boeing 727 or Airbus A320, &tc.

Are European countries supposed to be immune from accident or what? :p

No, but from stupidity, yes. Although we could insert a Polish joke here.

My point was that landing in zero visibility has been around for 30 years or more, so unless they were using a Cessna turboprop with Windows 78, they should have been able to land safely, fog or no fog. And should we mention this was Polish Air Force One???

What do you think how those multimillion dollar airplanes with 4-500 passengers land when the weather is shitty? By praying, I guess...

I got curious, just how many decades are the Polish behind the times:

" The first such landing was achieved at Bedford (home of BLEU) in March 1964. The first on a commercial flight with passengers aboard was achieved on flight BE 343 on 10 June 1965, with a Trident 1 G-ARPR, from Paris to Heathrow with Captains Eric Poole and Frank Ormonroyd."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland

"In the 1980s and 1990s there was, however, increasing pressure globally from customer airlines for at least some improvements in low visibility operations; both for flight regularity and from safety considerations. "

Without looking. Don't cheat now.
What is his surname? "Lech something" won't do.

Without looking. Don't cheat now.
What is his surname? "Lech something" won't do.

Kaczyński. In my country, there are actress with such names, such as this famous Indonesian actress Tamara Natalia Christina Mayawati Bleszyński (http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamara_Bleszynski), lol :D

I got curious, just how many decades are the Polish behind the times:

" The first such landing was achieved at Bedford (home of BLEU) in March 1964. The first on a commercial flight with passengers aboard was achieved on flight BE 343 on 10 June 1965, with a Trident 1 G-ARPR, from Paris to Heathrow with Captains Eric Poole and Frank Ormonroyd."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland

"In the 1980s and 1990s there was, however, increasing pressure globally from customer airlines for at least some improvements in low visibility operations; both for flight regularity and from safety considerations. "
Did you actually read the page you linked to?

This clearly imposes a requirement for the GROUND based guidance element to conform to specific standards, as well as the airborne elements. Thus, while an aircraft may be equipped with an autoland system, it will be totally unusable without the appropriate ground environment.


Please note:
The Smolensk airfield is not equipped with an instrument landing system to guide planes to the ground.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36352097...europe/page/2/

..and I am sure there were no other airports 100s of miles in the distance, where they could have gone...

Now there is a rumor that the passengers (highly influental people) wanted to land against the pilot's wish...

Looks like social Darwinism at its best:

"Still, attention has been drawn to the pilot’s state of mind because of a previous incident involving the Polish president, Lech Kaczynski, who died along with numerous other senior Polish government and military officials in the crash.

In August 2008, during Russia’s brief war with Georgia, Mr. Kaczynski got into a dispute with a pilot flying his plane to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, according to reports at the time. Mr. Kaczynski demanded that the pilot land despite dangerous conditions, but the pilot disagreed and diverted to neighboring Azerbaijan.

Mr. Kaczynski threatened that there would be consequences for the pilot, the Polish newspaper Dziennik reported. “If someone decides to become a pilot, he cannot be fearful,” Mr. Kaczynski said. “After returning to the country, we shall deal with this matter.”

That pilot was not disciplined and received a medal for his service. But the defense minister later said that the pilot had suffered depression in the wake of the incident."

..and I am sure there were no other airports 100s of miles in the distance, where they could have gone...
Minsk.

The article quoted in the OP states that the Russians claim they attempted to divert the flight to Minsk, but that "the crew decided not to."

I know, that was sarcasm....

There is nothing to say, just to shake your head. When I am on a plane, 2 words never mix in my mind, "trying" and "landing". We either land or we do not. The only time when I am happy with a try when the engines are on fire or there is only 2 gallons of kerosine left. Anyhow:

---------------------------------------

"The crew of the Polish president's plane, which crashed in Russia last Saturday killing President Lech Kaczynski and other top officials, attempting to land without permission, an air traffic controller said on Tuesday.
A Soviet-made Tu-154 plane was carrying a delegation of Poland's top public figures to pay tribute to some 20,000 Polish officers executed by Soviet secret police in 1940. It hit the top of trees while attempting to land at the Severny military airport near the western Russian city of Smolensk in thick fog. All 96 people on board were killed in the crash.
Col. (Ret.) Anatoly Muravyov, the air traffic controller who was guiding the plane during the landing, told the Komsomolskaya Pravda Russian daily that the crew "did not listen" to recommendations to divert to another airport.
"The head of the traffic control group warned of poor weather conditions, but the crew went ahead with the landing without permission. And [they] also made their landing approach without permission," Muravyov said.
"The [control tower] head said three times to execute a flyby procedure. When the crew did not listen, the control tower could only continue to guide the plane and watch it. It was the only landing approach, the plane crashed at once," he added.
Muravyov said the controllers were unable to give a direct command to divert because "we have no rights to give orders to civilian pilots."
"Conversations with the crew were in Russian and sometimes in bad English. It hampered understanding," he said, adding that the fatal crash was caused by a combination of factors."

--------------------------

I mean holy fuck! Isn't there an international language for aviation? I thought different nationalities have been landing on each other's airports for 8 decades or so... What part of "Nyet, nyet" was hard to understand???
Also, I am all for democracy, but when it is about to land or not to land in bad weather, it is NOT up to the passengers to decide, OK?

Too bad the guy wasn't riding in a helicopter. Somebody once told me that the Poles invented ejection seats for those things.

Speaking of helicopters, the Poles don't have very good luck with them either. If they have ejection seats, they sure need them. I read somewhere that 2 or so years ago one went down killing a bunch of high ranked military officers...

Well, trying to find it I came accross these:

2009 Nov 1st:

"It has been informed that the crashed helicopter (MI-2 analogue) was found 200 meters away from the border with Poland (near the village of Vysokoye, the Kamenets region) at 4.48am on 1 November. All three crewmembers (Polish nationals) were killed. "

2 months later:

"(Aftermath) A Mi-24 helicopter gunship with ten Polish soldiers on board has had to make an emergency landing in Afghanistan as concern over how forces are equipped increases.

The incident happened at 11.00 CET this morning, several dozen metres away from the Polish military base in Ghazni province, while the helicopter was taking off. No casualties have been reported."

10 months earlier:

"Tuesday, 17 February 2009 15:17

Two people have died after an air ambulance helicopter en route to a multi-vehicle traffic pile-up crashed near Jarostow, in southwestern Poland."

7 years ago:

"Poland's prime minister, injured in helicopter crash, says he will make EU summit next week"

6 years ago:

"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A Polish helicopter made an emergency landing near Karbala on Wednesday, killing three soldiers and wounding four, the Polish military said."

OK, I have found it, 2008 January:

"A Polish military aircraft has crashed in the country's northwest, killing everyone on board.
At least 19 people were on the Casa C-295M military transport plane when it came down 2km (1.2 miles) from an air base in the town of Miroslawiec.
It was carrying officials who had attended an air safety conference."

------------------------------

After all these, I wonder why they even try flying...

Correction, in the accident 2 years ago killing the 19 military officers it was NOT a helicopter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirosławiec_air_accident

"on 23 January 2008. An EADS CASA C-295 military transport plane of the Polish Air Force flying from Warsaw to the 12th Air Base in Mirosławiec crashed as it approached the Mirosławiec runway. All passengers and crew aboard were killed. There were 20 victims, among them high-ranking air force officers"

very sad day for all Polish people around the world

i will assume that the president himself urged for the plane to attempt landing, likely because he wanted to be at the destination of the memorial asap... if it weren't such a packed plane and the trip was for some other reason, i'm sure a diversion would've been made.

I'll bet money that those sneaky Russians shot that plane down.

By the way, there were reports of gun shots heard at the site shorly after the plane crashed to the ground. Probably poppin of the survivors. Good luck finding those reports now though.

Poland leans more to wards the Russians, less to wards NATO and the west.

the whole damn polish government dies, on Russian soil.

coincident i think not.

The west had more to gain by this crash then the russians. Our governements are just as dirty and slimy as any of the eastern governments

Poland leans more to wards the Russians, less to wards NATO and the west.

the whole damn polish government dies, on Russian soil.

coincident i think not.

The west had more to gain by this crash then the russians. Our governements are just as dirty and slimy as any of the eastern governments

You couldn't be more wrong. poland leans toward Russia??? the poles despise the russians

You couldn't be more wrong. poland leans toward Russia??? the poles despise the russians

the people, yes. this government that was in power no.

look it up sir.

The west had more to gain by this crash then the russians. Our governements are just as dirty and slimy as any of the eastern governments

if i'm not mistaken the president of Poland was rather pro-US and apparently steps were being taken to build a large US-missile facility on Polish soil... with Poland's close proximity to Russia, this could have been grounds for some tension.

i don't really think there was any foul-play involved in this accident though. In such an international tragedy I'm sure many different parties have had access to all black box data and in-flight recording sessions.

yeah, ur probally right, but i trust our government as much as i trust the russians, there all sneaky cunts.

That could be part of the payment to Russia.

The deal: 3/29 Moscow subway bombing planed to justify a coming terror attack in US. (it failed to go through)

The payment: Regime change in Kyrgyzstan and the air plane accident that killed top leaders of the Poland a few days later. Here is what I have wrote in the other thread.


The bombing of Moscow's subway station played the same role of London 7/7 bombing in 2005. Both would justify planed terror attack in US. (Both failed to be carried out because the framed drug case went soured)

U.K. was awarded the Host of 2012 Olympic game on 7/6/2005. What is the prize for Russia for its 3/29 subway bombing?

The new Kyrgyzstan regime is said pro-Russia and has been admitted by Moscow immediately. The similar story we had seen in 8/8/2008. (The opening ceremony of 2008 Olympic Game in China) On same day, Russia invaded Georgia and had a piece of Georgia’s land "being independent". It is coincidence with the attempt of war with Iran in August 2008.

your ignorance people makes me, a Russian, sad.

your ignorance people makes me, a Russian, sad.

The Poles hate the Russians worse than they hate the Germans,


Zbrodnia Katyńska

The Poles hate the Russians worse than they hate the Germans,


Zbrodnia Katyńska

your ignorance people makes me, a Russian, sad.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/04/24/world/international-us-russia-poland-crash.html

Anything associated with Katyn will take more lives the longer the hatred continues.

He'll be replaced, and life will go on.

He'll be replaced, and life will go on.

Yeah but I am saying the conflict between Poland and Russia with Katyn and missiles and the diplomatic disuputes and now death of Polish president on Russian soil...its just going overboard there.

I just hope the new president will honestly want good relationships with Russia and all will be good for two countries.

your ignorance people makes me, a Russian, sad.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/04/24/world/international-us-russia-poland-crash.html

Anything associated with Katyn will take more lives the longer the hatred continues.

Yes, the Russian State will kill anyone, who dare to bring up the subject, till no one is alive to question.

Yes, the Russian State will kill anyone, who dare to bring up the subject, till no one is alive to question.

you are ignorant of reality.

you are ignorant of reality.

No, I know the reality, half of my retaliation on my fathers side are Polacy, and I grew up listening to the history of Russian aggression against Poland from the first person experience.

One of my prized possessions is a pistol used by my uncle's, uncle, in defense of Rzeczpospolita Polska against the Russian Invaders in 1939 to avenge


The Zbrodnia Tatyńska,

And brought justice to Stalin"s NKVD thugs.


http://caseystawicki.com/images/polish%20eagle%20casimir.jpg

Buffalo Roam, if you want a new future between Poland and Russia, you need to halt the hatred and your blind patriotism.

Hey, my Polish and Russian friends, why don't you take it somewhere else? I mean I don't mind a nice national match up in the appropriate forum, but this thread is about backseat driving a plane in the fog and not about historical justice..

Yeah but I am saying the conflict between Poland and Russia with Katyn and missiles and the diplomatic disuputes and now death of Polish president on Russian soil...its just going overboard there.

I just hope the new president will honestly want good relationships with Russia and all will be good for two countries.

It was a facetious post. I have an odd sense of humour.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36777478/ns/world_news-europe/

Hey, my Polish and Russian friends, why don't you take it somewhere else? I mean I don't mind a nice national match up in the appropriate forum, but this thread is about backseat driving a plane in the fog and not about historical justice..

I'm not Polish, point of fact is that my ancestry is Swedish.

I'm not Polish,

Yet my point still stands, take your offtopic bickering to somewhere eles. :)

Yet my point still stands, take your offtopic bickering to somewhere eles. :)

Off point? Really, Russia is not and has not been very happy with the Poles for a long time, they were very up set with Poland's move to NATO, the missile shield, and NATO bases, and it wouldn't be the first time the Russians sent a very heavy handed message in what they consider their sphere of influence, and the timing of the accident (supposed) with the Katyn Memorial seem more than a little coincidental.

Russia is not know for playing nice with it's neighbors, especially those who embarrass them.

Invasions of:

Poland

Hungary

Czechoslovakia

Afghanistan

Georgia,

Speaking of which, remember Viktor Yushchenko--the Russians tried to poison Him, for becoming to independent minded.

Yes tell me that I am off subject.


Zbrodnia Tatyńska

A long and bloody history that hasn't ended.

you are ignorant of reality.

Says the guy who believes that the Poles killed at Katyn were traitors and some how believes even if that lie were true its justification for murder by a foreign power.

Yes tell me that I am off subject.

OK, you are offtopic. Feel better?

This is a thread about the accident and not what happened 65 years ago and who was at fault...
(I don't mind if you duke it out with Draqon on that subject because he needs a little education, just make a separate thread about it.)

Damn, Draqon has been back about a week, and banned once again.

Anywho, GO POLAND! DOWN WITH RUSSIA!

Oh, and President Kaczynski's plane crash: I wonder if someone was trying to decapitate the Polish government. Just musing a little.

OK, you are offtopic. Feel better?

This is a thread about the accident and not what happened 65 years ago and who was at fault...
(I don't mind if you duke it out with Draqon on that subject because he needs a little education, just make a separate thread about it.)

I really don't think you understand what Kaytn means to the Polish people and the implications of the disaster going to the site.

Again, this is either a technology thread (what went wrong) or a conspiracy thread (the Russians did it), but not a history revisionist one...

Again, this is either a technology thread (what went wrong) or a conspiracy thread (the Russians did it), but not a history revisionist one...

How about, other powers (banking interests) did it, and made it look like Russians did it, when they only had a small part in it?

Again, this is either a technology thread (what went wrong) or a conspiracy thread (the Russians did it), but not a history revisionist one...

and again your ignoring what Kaytn means to the polish history and how Russian action during WW2 have colored the relations between Russia and Poland since. to the Polish people the Russians are guilty until proven innocent and even than they probably be viewed as guilty. Rather than ignore what is being said that Poland still views Russia poorly because of Kaytn you have been rambling about how people are trying to revise history which no one but Draqon is trying to do.

and again your ignoring what Kaytn means to the polish history

Probably I am, because I treat it as a technical issue. The PM's presence (possible even his order) made the pilot to try to land no matter what the advice was from the airport. End of story...

Anyhow, this topic reached the end of its usefullness...

Frankly, I've reached the conclusion that reptoids are at fault. They're the worst. I can't see how you people can't understand that.

The president of Poland died in an air crash. That is part of the payment to Russia. There was a subway bombing in Moscow on 3/29 which killed 38 people. The bombing was planed to justify the coming terror attack in US, though it failed to be carried out. Then there came the payment: a regime change in Kyrygzstan and this air crash.


Quote, “This is a video filmed by a guy who were at the crash scene right after it happened (you can see the flames). You can see several unknown people walk around in the area, and people SUPPOSEDLY yelling "Dont kill us" etc in Polish, in which after you hear multiple gunshots (or something else, i dont know) all while a siren is blowing to maybe cover up the sounds. Now, like most people, i would discard this as crazy conspiracy theorist bullshit, but then:

Quote:

Author of the video seen by everyone by now has been stabbed near Kijow on 4.15 and transported in critical condition to the hospital in Kijow.
But i still thought "hm...nahh its just a coincidence". But then:
Quote:

On 4.16 three unidentified individuals unplugged him from life support system and stabbed him 3 more times. Andrij was pronounced dead that afternoon. Russian government claims it was a coincidence
So now i dont know what to think. What about you guys? The polish president is known for opposing the Lisabon Treaty and similar things. Also, Putin himself is in charge of the investigation.

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxIFh3NkEvM




http://gazbom.blogspot.com/2010/04/guy-who-filmed-shots-fired-at-polish.html#ixzz0lnx7WBy2

The president of Poland died in an air crash. That is part of the payment to Russia. There was a subway bombing in Moscow on 3/29 which killed 38 people. The bombing was planed to justify the coming terror attack in US, though it failed to be carried out. Then there came the payment: a regime change in Kyrygzstan and this air crash.



Quote:

Im not laughing. That's not funny.

Frankly, I've reached the conclusion that reptoids are at fault. They're the worst. I can't see how you people can't understand that.

The obvious question: What did the late president of Poland do to piss off David Icke to the point that he sent his lizard-assassins after him?

Im not laughing. That's not funny.

I was not joking. I think it was part of the "Ninety days utmost" terror attack plan. To show all this was done by Muslim terrorists, they had paid G.B. to do it, (London bombing) and this time, they paid Russia to do it. (Moscow subway bombing. I think the "New York Time square bombing" event is a continuation of that "90 days utmost" plot.

A lot of anti-Russia rhetoric in this thread...is this still one of those hatreds US people are chewing on?
I mean..we've got a plane that crashed in Russia..and everybody's spluttering how the dirty soviets were behind it...

Anyway, yep, it was quite a shock for Poland, and Europe as a whole...

By the way, there were reports of gun shots heard at the site shorly after the plane crashed to the ground. Probably poppin of the survivors. Good luck finding those reports now though.

Here is something.

http://davidoconnor.ning.com/video/footage-of-people-killing?xg_source=facebookshare

Poland leans more to wards the Russians, less to wards NATO and the west.

the whole damn polish government dies, on Russian soil.

coincident i think not.

The west had more to gain by this crash then the russians. Our governements are just as dirty and slimy as any of the eastern governments

Really now just where do you come up with this assessment?

Poland leans more towards Russia? Remember they were in Russia to seek justice for the Heroes of Katyn, murdered by Russian.


Czech, Poland, Hungary to join NATO March 12

`
The plot thickens...
:scratchin:

MOSCOW - At least two passengers visited the cockpit of Polish President Lech Kaczynski's plane before it crashed last month, and others may have chatted on cell phones, possibly affecting navigation as the crew battled heavy fog over challenging terrain.

Those were among the details revealed Wednesday by Russian and Polish officials investigating the April 10 crash that killed Kaczynski, his wife and 94 others outside the western Russian city of Smolensk. The preliminary report drew no conclusions about what caused the crash...

...The plane went down in a ravine 15 meters (50 feet) below the level of the runway, just a kilometer away.

"The presence of this ravine can have a natural influence on the readings of the radio altimeter," Morozov said. "This is one of the subjects the technical commission is working on."

He also said the commission was probing whether the use of cell phones aboard the Tu-154 affected its navigation.

The most tantalizing detail was that two voices not belonging to crew members showed up on the cockpit flight recorders. Officials said it was not clear to whom one of the voices belonged, declined to identify the other person and didn't report what either person said.

The information could feed speculation in Poland that Kaczynski or someone in his entourage pressured the crew to land despite visibility that had shrunk to about 200 meters (660 feet). The plane was carrying senior political figures to a memorial ceremony for thousands of Polish officers who were killed by Soviet secret police in 1940.

Edmund Klich, Poland's envoy to the investigation, said only that "certain suggestions" were made by the passengers that he believed had no influence on the plane's fate, though he acknowledged he had not heard the recordings. The voices were heard no later than 16 minutes before the crash.

Poland's PAP agency said it learned from a source close to the investigation in Moscow that one of the two voices in the cockpit that did not belong to a crew member was that of the Air Force Commander, Gen. Andrzej Blasik.

Morozov said the Polish air force crew piloting the plane had been assembled only a few days before the flight and that they had not received regular training that could have helped them cope with unusual conditions.

About five seconds before the plane hit a tree in the ravine, the captain switched off the autopilot and started to bank around for a second landing attempt, Morozov said. An automated voice warned "pull up" about 18 seconds before the crash, and before that the crew twice heard the phrase "terrain ahead," Morozov said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37236207/ns/world_news-europe/

Again, this is either a technology thread (what went wrong) or a conspiracy thread (the Russians did it), but not a history revisionist one...

Then it should have been posted in the Technology Forum.