View Full Version : Pope To Arafat:Break Cycle of Violence
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope John Paul (news - web sites) told Palestinian President Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) on Thursday the Middle East had reached a point of ``unheard of'' violence and urged both Arabs and Israelis to break a cycle of attacks and reprisals.
The Pope and Arafat, who is on a 24-hour visit to Rome, talked for 25 minutes at the pontiff's summer residence at Castelgandolfo, southeast of Rome.
A statement issued at the Vatican (news - web sites) said the Pope felt the Middle East was mired in ``unheard of violence which continues to mow down victims, above all among the civilian and unarmed population.''
``His Holiness...firmly repeated that there is an absolute need to put an end to all types of violence, be they attacks or reprisals, and to get the much hoped for negotiations on the table,'' the statement said
What do you think about the whole situation? Will it continue for another thousand years or the end is in sight?
08-02-01, 10:58 AM
...not for a century at least. The only conceivable hope is that Israel becomes a secular state and accepts the Palestinians as eaual partners in a democratic country. Partition won't work, and I can't see Israel becoming a secular state any time soon. Sadly, it looks like things will continue to get worse for the Palestinians.
08-03-01, 02:01 AM
that is not that simple since they are not used to democracy
in a state where one can get himself sent to jail simply if they speak against the regime is kinda lame.
look at egypt 52 gays face trial for doing nothing
egypt kills fanatic muslems by law by the hundreds every year.
egypt has military forces around its hisotirc sites to prevent islamic terror (some even want do demolish those sites same as they did in afganistan) to prevent japs or germans visiting being kidnaped.
even i nthe rich nations like lest say kuwait 50% of the population can not even vote since females are simply not allowed to vote in kuwait.
the plo and arafat suck.
arafat closed down an arabic t.v station branch(el-gezira) simply because they dared to air something against arafat.
it is kinda hard dealing with people that have high infamily killings rate due to "dumb" reasons and hamolot cells killings(hamolot=family cells they wage small "wars" among families)
it is also kinda hard to understand how come they shoot up in the air in celebrations and such.
the pals throw stones since that is what they "know"
3 years ago a pirate lighter factory burnt down and the locals went to the plo offices and started throwing stones on it so the plo officers went out and started shooting at them live ammo.
and Israeli arabs live under better conditions than most arabs in arabic nations.
btw in jordan just as the intifada started in Israel
the king there shut down electrical power and made it ilegal for them 2 demonstrate even peacefully.
you should go and check the USA human rights site
and see how bad arabic and islamic nations are
those things are only due to the regime since among arabic or muslem populations living in the "west modern world" infamily killings rates are low and other variables.
it is all due to education and such.
08-03-01, 06:16 AM
I personally think it was pretty sick putting children in the front lines of protests throwing stones and then getting shot and killed just to try and get a sympathy vote. All the Muslims I knew were all complaining how Israel kills little children. I say they just want an excuse to start a fight. Even the dumb media saw through that.
but what I really don't get is that a Muslim group who fight by force and who were holding a meeting planning to cause trouble. The Isrealites come and get them, then the US condemns Israel. All I can say is that if that happened to the US the US would do what Israel did and a lot worse.
08-03-01, 06:36 AM
dude even the federation sat down with the dominion to discuss issues.
08-03-01, 08:34 AM
I never dreamed that such an innocuous post daring to suggest pessimism over the tragic situation in Israel and the occupied territories would bring such hatred bubbling to the surface. The word 'democracy' seems to be taken as a lisence to rant in such a context.
I find it difficult to discern a cogent argument through the vitriol, but you, and Deadwood, seem to be putting forward the following propositions:
Palestinians have no conception of democracy because:
A: They are unused to it.
B: They are not intelligent enough to comprehend it.
C: The dominant religion of Islam is incompatible with it.
Israel is justified, and not to be blamed, for its response to Palestinian protest.
Arabs are 'better off' in Israel, with Palestinians, by implication, much better off accepting Israeli occupation of the West Bank.
Palestinians are "dumb", "throw stones becaeuse that is all that they know", and place their children in the frontline in order to gain international sympathy.
An array of allegations were also thrown at Arabs and Muslims in general.
The Palestinians being 'unused' to democracy: Even if it were true, it would in no way prevent nations from following it. If it did, there would never have been any democratic nations on earth.
Not intelligent enough to comprehend: This is simply a mean-spirited, racist undertone. I would expect more from an Israeli.
Islam's incompatability with democracy: Simply not the case. Like the bible, The Koran is interpreted in different ways. Strict bible readings are just as undemocratic as strict Koran readings. Iran has a representative democracy. But you are also make the mistake of assuming democracy to mean more than a system of imparting power through the determination of the popular majority of citizens. What you refer to by 'freedom of speach' etc. is a liberal democracy, which is in itself an assumption of the popular will.
Palestinians 'better off' in Israel? I really don't think so. They are denied equal rights, no property rights, are discriminated against and treated as fifth class citizens. Your comment reminds me of those who suggested black South Africans were better off under apartheit, weren't educated enough to live in a civilised society would make a mess of running the country. Not so.
Children used as shields? How dare those children! To have the nerve to get in the path of a democratically fired Israeli bullet! This suggestion is madness. Maybe the children should be rounded up and put in special camps. Maybe they should be hidden in underground bunkers - oops, that would mean that they were once again just being used as 'shields' to protect evil plotters. It's an easy, disingenuous excuse to deflect the blame for attrocities.
Palestinans throw stones: Primarily because they lack tanks, helicopter gunships and military jets to respond to Israeli attacks in kind. Rocks hurt, but bullets kill.
State sponsored assasination is hardly a legitimate policy. Plotting to bomb. Isn't some sort of evidence usually required? Are citizens in the US executed by the state for what is alleged to go on in their head without evidence, a trial and a conviction?
There's far more to say, but'm not trying to write a book. A few thoughts though:
The Palestinians did talk - for 7 years! Difficult to carry on when all you get from the other side is broken promises and creeping annexation.
The UN has asked Israel to vacate the occupied territories for more than three decades. Interesting how Israel manages to avoid the usual punishment (Iraq doesn't).
08-03-01, 11:52 AM
1) arabs are not used to democracy!!(name a democratic arabic nation)
2) who said they are not They are not intelligent enough to comprehend it.
3) Islam is an incompatible religion that differs since simply it clealry states that jewdaisem and xtianity are religions of the book while budaisem or whatever are totaly false and must be delt way more harder.
(do i needa remind you that jews do not assimilate non jews and for one 2 become a jew one must undergo some tests and study
alot and express that he is converting out of his own free of will).
clealry you are ignorant about arabic nations and way of life i suggest you go check some facts.
infamily killings are very common among arabs in arabic nations while it is not among arabs living in the west world.
arabs also use more contact which means they touch each other what to the westerns will look like pro gay (which is not) is usual and casual.while if you will dare to insult an arab family,mother(esp mother he will be very insulted while i nthe west if i called u wazzup mother f***er one will not even notice)
arabs are tribal and have hamola values.
arabs do not see throwing stones as something odd or different
it is in thier tribal behaviour and education(odd how come arabs living in the west world do not throw stones!! duh!)
go check some facts!!! it is very uncommon for arabs not to throw stones no matter in what nation and for what they are demonstrating in/for(more like rioting)
you are right shooting up in the air in celebrations like weddings and such is not tribal (even among israeli arabs that phenomenon is kinda wide spread altough less cases are taking place every year)
btw flailing weapons in your hand is not tribal?!?
iran is not an arabic nation but still go check your facts females are not allowed to run(last elections some1 wanted to apply as a candinate and she was banned)
who said palestinians are better off in Israel? (i said israeli arabs live under better conditions than most arabs in arabic nations)
(do i need remind you that arabs in the west bank,gaza and such are not israeli citizens while israeli arabs are and they have the same rights as any Israeli has!)
btw in lebanon palestinians that live there can not buy land(there is a law that prevents that)
the last two cases in which pals were systematixcly being wiped out was in sabra and shatila in which barbaric xtian arabs killed pals,and before in the black september in jordan
*do note that before the sabra and shatila events yaser arafat had his plo go and kll an entire xtian vilage named monir or something like that i'll check it up i 4got its name
oh one more thing afew weeks ago gibril ragob(one of the plo heads) went back from a visit in this or that arabic nation and he wanted to enter arafats' chanmber and arafat's chief of stuff said he can't so he simply slapped him and went in.
do also go and see how come arabic nations stopped giving money to the plo and pals and are now only giving donations by supplies since most of the money ended up in the plo head's pockets.
just as i speak 60 pals now got arrested by the plo cause they are being suspected of colaberation with Israel
(not to mention that yesterday 2 plas were sentenced to death in a 10 min trial and in its end 200 pals that watched the trial went out and celebrated guess how?!?!
(right!! shooting up in the air)
i suggest u go you go and read two sites:
http://www.albawaba.com a pro arabic site but speak its mind without any fear from any arabic nation if they say some stuff the local regime does not like.
http://www.debka.com a pro israeli site
08-03-01, 12:06 PM
shahids are those who bomb themself
do u deny that those who detonate themself are just too stupid/cheap to install a decent timer/trigger?
so heaven must be filled with stupid people
and every stupid man has 70 very ugly virgins(cause you must be one ugly duddet to die a virgin unless she is very young which will make him a child molester and i doubt GOD has phedopiles in heaven altough in some arabic nations if you are above 10 you can marry a 10-12 year old girl.(yes a 50 year old male can marry a 12 year old girl)
but you won't reach heaven if your are being burried while wrapped in a pig skin (uk did it early this century to muslem terrorists to prevent terror attacks and amazingly it worked u can check it out!!)
(wow !!! so many variables i think cold fusion will be achived before they reach heaven)
<h12>if ( (((stupid) || (cheap)) && (! burried_while_wrapped_in_pig_skin)) )
In case of Arab-Israeli conflict, it is wise not to take sides. On the otherhand as a community of nations, we should create a peaceful environment for all concerned.
Letting the two groups fight it out could result more damage to the area. Consider the possibility of germ warfare that could kill a very large number of people. Even if Palestinians decide to live in peace, it could be for a purpose called revenge. The western Christian society are not really exposed to the Islamic Fundamentalists in a day to day basis, so it is very hard to comprehend the underlying structural flaw in their thinking.
One solution could be to work with the Palestinians directly and thorugh Egypt in a more agressive way (deeds and not words). The Jewish group of America should organize a serious effort to work with Egypt on a commercial level towards a greater change in the region. In the past, Israel depended on US to solve this complex problem without realizing that US government can not force GE or Boeing to do business with anybody (Think about Russia...).In US we have a very large Jewish business population. They need to take an active role.
I have talked to a few Rabbis in the past. What I was told that, the US Jewish population do not understand the under current of the social fabric specially the Palestine issue and the greater context of Islamic fundamentalists, some of which has nothing to do with the state of Israel but a lot to do with the Islamic world verses the rest of the world.
And if the US Jewish population have this issue, the rest of us are more oblivious to complexity and hence have a tendency to ignore the issues hoping it will go away.
Simply asking "Why we can not get along?" will not solve the problem.
I could be more sympathetic to your position were it not for the fact that there has been, and still is, considerable enmity between Sephardic and Ashkenazic Jews in Israel.
08-03-01, 05:21 PM
Are not the real issues why there is a war. There is no reason whatsoever for people to kill eachother, it´s just a violent expression of deep rooted fear in a whole population. I don´t know HOW to make them feel safe and stop killing, do you? I wish I had the time and possibility to go there and talk to everyone of these warmongers and hug them and convince them that we CAN all get along. The Earth belongs to everybody and we should not divide it in countries. We all have the right to live here.
08-07-01, 06:56 AM
08-07-01, 11:24 AM
The preposterous rantings and barely comprehendable language does not warrant a response. I simply provide a quote from a member of the Knesset, MK Bishari:
“while it is permissible in Israel to call for ‘Death to the Arabs’ and ‘Death to Azmi Bishara,’ those who support the right of resistance to occupation and call for peace based on historical compromises are indicted. In other words, those who promote war indict those who promote peace.”
I call for a united, secular state as the only peaceful way forward. Which side are you on?
PS - Don't assume my 'ignorance' of the Arab world. I can assure you, I have more experience of Arab countries than do you.
08-09-01, 12:34 PM
kinda hard 2 come into terms with arabs due to all of what i posted in the past
esp due to 200 xtian lebanese arrested in lebanon simply cause they do not "care much" for syria in leb and all they did was simply demonstrate.
100 pals arrested by the plo on charges of colaberting with Israel.
85 muslems being arrested in egypt since they raised money for the pals and tzeznians(russia did not like it so egypt made some arrests).
kinda hard to talk with a nation like syria that arrested a mmeber of its parlament since he went on a starvation strike stating that some reforms needa be done.
and all this just in the last 3 days.
maybe Israel should simply arrest all the pals that demonstarte?
(pals are allowed to demonstarte unlike in jordan)
the pals are so lucky Israel is not an arabic nation or else it would have treated them in the same manner.
the pals support genocide since they support iraq and saddm hussain (some1 well known for his love to the kords)
you are forgetting muslems wish to assimilate to others even by force while some xtians talking here and there about xtianity got arrested in afganistan.
08-09-01, 12:44 PM
dou know what they will do to a citizen if he went in his arabic/islamic nation and said the regime sux,our leader is gay?
or simply say real things our leader sux since we got high unemployment rate,low life expentency rate,bad economics
i bet things u can not even imagine
if u did it in syria,egypt,jordan,iraq or such
check some political arrests and such in :
08-09-01, 12:57 PM
PLO or the IDF?
On February 29, students at Bir Zeit University staged a large protest against PA policies and practices at which several demonstrators threw stones at a foreign head of state. Following the protest, PA police arrested about 30 students (see Section 1.d.). The PA police commissioner also banned unlicensed public gatherings. Several human rights groups and political factions filed a petition with the Palestinian High Court protesting the action. On April 29, the Court suspended the police order and gave the police commissioner 8 days to clarify the reasons for issuing the order. The police order had not been enforced by year's end. In March hundreds of Palestinians demonstrated in Ramallah to demand the release of the Bir Zeit university students
go read this and more
(the foreign dude they mean is ... guess who?!?!
right !!! some1 really improtant from france
managed to guess yet?)
08-10-01, 07:49 AM
Judging from your posts, I assume that your arguments amount to something along the lines of:
Arabs have poor governments which violate human rights, the right to protest and are undemocratic. Therefore, Palestinians (as Arabs) are unable to live in a democratic nation.
Well. First off, I think it is a mistake to draw conclusions based on the 'Arabs'. As you must be well aware, the countries in the Middle East that fall under the 'Arab' umbrella are quite different. To group them as one of the same mentality is simplistic. We are not talking about Egyptians, Lebanese or Syrians - we are talking about Palestinians and Israelis. Saudis are quite different to Tunisians I'm sure you'd agree.
It is part of a de-humanising process to group quite different individuals under certain banners be they Muslim or Arab and ascribe views to them. I could just as easily claim that 'all Jews are...' but I don't. It would be a simplistic mistake.
Presumably what follows from your talk of 'Arabs' is that they have no conception of democracy so....what? What conclusion are you drawing? Is this simply an effort to rant against Arabs and de-huamnise them? Immunise the west to the death of over 600 Palestinians at the hands of Israelis in the past year?
If we're talking about respect for human rights, democratic process etc. then there must be blame all round. Israel has been condemned by amnesty, the very US state department you site (despite their bias), the UN - the list endless. Successive Israeli governments have tortured, detained without trial, demolished people's houses, sponsored assassination, targeted civilians, refused the right of protest and denied property rights among a whole litany of human rights abuses that amount to a violation of nearly every article of the fourth Geneva Convention.
But it is beside the point. What should be concerning you as an Israeli is how the violence can end. Demonising Arabs is hardly the answer. But if you dislike the way Palestinians live so much, why don't you let them govern themselves in their own country? That is, after all, what they're asking for.