Ok people

i was reading one of those crapy womens mags (ok i was REALLLLLLLLLLLLY bord)

It had a servey in it that said less than 10% of women would ask the fathers opinion before deciding to abort or adopt out their child

Now womens groups have been complaning for YEARS that guys get a girl pregnant then don't surport the mother or his child

i think guys like this are ASSHOLES but what do people think about this servey?

I mean if women are asking guys to pay for there child shouldn't they at least ask his OPINION before killing the child? and if they are chosing to give the child up for adoption then the father might want to look after it. Whats better? the biological father or a total stranger?

The outcome of the survey is no surprise. But it is annoying!

Women (I am speaking in general terms now, don't feel personally offended if n/a) should stop and have a look at how they've become with their feminism.
I often wonder what motives other than egotistical feminists have for their actions.
Don't get me wrong: I'm for equal rights all the way. emancipation is a very good thing.
an implication of this:
The father is as important as the mother in a pregnancy.
For this reason guys turning their backs on their pregnant girlfriends are **sholes.
For the same reason girls not talking it through with the guys are bitches.
Failing to see this puts you in the unemancipated group!

edit: changed a word that fitted better to my taste. no big deal

I agree with both of you that a woman should get the fathers advise before aborting or adopting out. But I would like to offer a bit of insight from a womans point of view. Most women who abort, do so because they are not in a serious relationship with the guy, and it was a complete accident. Alot of guys would get mad if you werent in a committed relationship and you came along and said "Hey Im pregnant!" - they wouldnt like it at all. They would most likely be mad at the woman for letting herself become pregnant. (how a guy can think that is a wonder to me). But that is the mentality alot of women hold. I was deathly afraid to tell my daughters father that I was pregnant, but I did so because I thought he would want a say so. Well he did, and he said to get an abortion - no ifs, ands, or buts about it. When I said no, well, I still havent heard a word from him 5 years later. So if I were ever to become pregnant again, and I wasnt serious with the guy, I would most likely not tell him I was having an abortion. Only because of my past experiences. Men can be very cruel when it comes to things like that. Most men will say it is the womans responsibility when it comes to child bearing. That is why alot of women are afraid to tell.
Also, there is a sense of failing, if the preganancy was a mistake. They dont want to upset the man, they dont want to argue about it, they dont want the man to leave them because of it. They just want it all to go away.
These are just a few examples why a woman wouldnt tell. But there are creeps for women too. Maybe they were cheating and got pregnant from someone else. Maybe there just hoes:) Who knows, but not all women are bad because they dont tell the father.
Adoption is a totally different subject, to which I have to experience in. Sorry.

Take care:)

Yes, i am afraid you're right Star. I feel somewhat embarrased for my gender, even though I would never react in a shitty way like that. But I've seen it happen. :(
In dutch we have a word that perfectly describes males like that "hufter" the sound of it really fits the meaning.

What is a mystery to me is, why do so many women feel mainly attracted to the "hufters"? It has puzzled me ver since I saw the 'players' get to use most of the girls... is there a blind spot or something?

i know if i got a girl pregnant (in a serious relationship or not) i wouldn't want her to abort the baby and if she didn't want it i would take the child in an INSTANT

I really can't understand guys who wouldn't want there own child

There are women too, who don't want their own child. Now that is something I do not understand.

Maybe men can be hufters, yes, women can play their fair share in this, though. I knew a woman who was fooling around with everything which had a penis. During the years, she got pregnant three times. All three times she aborted the babies. Just like that. No talking to her would help. It was really ridiculous.

Then there are women who do not want to have a baby with that particular man, if that man is not a to friendly person for instance. If these women do not make enough money to take care of themselves and their baby, they will take the easy way out and have an abortion.

Adoption has become a whole new "world", with the coming of the kind of fast food windows in Germany in which women can leave their baby, after it's been born. They can go to the hospital and place the baby in such a window in front of the hospital. After a certain period of time (a few minutes I think it was), a bell rings and the people from the hospital come to pick up the newborn. So the mother gets a chance to reconsider whether she really wants this. It's done to prevent women from killing their newborns, right after it's been born. The rates of dead baby bodies, found back in the garbage cans, have brought the people in Germany to this experiment.

(now I don't know if I told it in the right words. I did the best I could, though. Merlijn, do you have something to add to it? it was a little while back I read about this )

I should chose to give the baby to the father if I was in that situation. While this is not the case and I never ever would give up my own child, I cannot speak about this really well. I can't imagine giving my child away, even if it is to the father...

Hm. True, I wouldn't want my girlfriend to abort without at least telling me about it.

But there is the physical pain and labor involved in pregnancy. Not to mention the handicaps in physical activity while the woman is pregnant. She might not want to go through that. The thing about men is that we don't go through that. We just watch her pain and try our best to help her out (or maybe some people don't). Watching the pain and inconvenience is not the same as experiencing it.

But a lot of men do pay for their wife/girlfriend. A pregnancy might take its extra toll on the guy by requiring him to work harder to get more money. So we're not exactly just standing by.;)

Any thoughts?

Merlijn:

The father is as important as the mother in a pregnancy.

Huh?

The father is the one who is parasitized (for lack of a better word) for nine months?
The father is the one who risks death?*
The father is the one who endures the pain of childbirth?

I don't mean to be mean, but that's kinda funny.

In spite of what doctrinare feminists would have us believe, the father is not as important as the mother. That is not the way humans evolved. Seahorses are like that, but not primates.

As such, I think it's up to the woman in question. And indeed, if her mind is made up either way, there's no real point in asking her partner.

Which leads us to another question:

If the male does not wish for the foetus to be brought to term, and offers to pay for an abortion, and the female insists on carrying the foetus to term -

Is he liable for child support?



I note that you're still referring to a lifeless mass of cells as a child, Asguard? ;)

*Admittedly rare in the developed world, but diseases such as eclampsia do claim lives

Originally posted by Zero
But a lot of men do pay for their wife/girlfriend. A pregnancy might take its extra toll on the guy by requiring him to work harder to get more money. So we're not exactly just standing by. ;)

You are talking united states. I can imagine men are running a lot harder in the US, because of the financial aspects. In the Netherlands it is pretty good doable to have a pregnancy and raise a baby on your own, without interference of any man, if you chose to do so.

The physical pain is just a minor inconvenience. As are the handicaps. At least, that's the way I see it. It doesn't last forever, there is an end to it. Sure, moments of despair and being fed up with the whole pregnancy are always there I guess. It's just how you look at it though. In the way of: "OMFG, I have nine, hideous months ahead of me" or "Hey, it's only nine months, it will pass."

Case of how you view life and your optimism or depressimism (is that a word in English? depressimism? it doesn't sound right)

It can be very nasty on some women who are real sick and feeling real terrible. I think in those cases, nine months seem forever...

;)

minor inconvenience???? I thought it would hurt more than that...

actully banshee you would have a VERY hard time keeping ME away from MY child

the first thing i would do if i found out a girl was carrying my child and was telling me she wanted nothing to do with me is go to court to get joint coustady and as legaly the mother and father are equal id get it to

Xev 9 months is still NOTHING compared to 40 years or whatever, the primary carer puts WAY more into a child than the biological mother

as to calling it a child you still haven't given me a reason NOT to so it IS a child

Asguard:

Xev 9 months is still NOTHING compared to 40 years or whatever, the primary carer puts WAY more into a child than the biological mother

Yes, but how often is the father the primary caregiver?

Seems that in this rush to have everybody be legally equal we've forgotten the fact that humans are not in fact equal.



as to calling it a child you still haven't given me a reason NOT to so it IS a child

Other than the fact that a foetus is not alive and does not think or possess a human mind. ;)

Originally posted by Zero
minor inconvenience???? I thought it would hurt more than that...

Yes it does hurt. More than you'll ever know. Haha, it strikes me immediately that you cannot know 'cause you are a man. ;)



Originally posted by Asguard
actully banshee you would have a VERY hard time keeping ME away from MY child

No, no, no, you take my words wrong or I didn't say it right. :) I am just saying that it is easier to do, if a woman should take that choice in the Netherlands. By all means, I am for the idea to let a father be a part of a childs life. In any case, in any way. If the father is a good person is another story. I think the child has a right on both father and mother.

I'm sorry if I said it wrong...

if the mother is giving the child up or thinking of aborting it then the father is WAY more likly to be the one who wants to care for it

sorry but your wrong, i know heeps of single fathers


and PROVE IT

you can't

there is no difference before birth to after

Asguard:
"if the mother is giving the child up or thinking of aborting it then the father is WAY more likly to be the one who wants to care for it"

What makes you say that?

"sorry but your wrong, i know heeps of single fathers"

More single fathers than single mothers? Really? In the US;

Percentage of all households run by single moms:
9.2%

Percentage of all households run by single dads:
1.9%

Interesting. source (http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml)

Seems to be the same for Oz, where single mothers are the fastest growing demographic re: parenthood.

So I'm right. Males are less likely to stick around to raise their children.

"there is no difference before birth to after"

There's no difference between this (http://www.kent.edu/biology/courses/Embo2cell.JPG) and a baby?

Ooookay....

I'll decimate your arguments later, must be going now. ;)

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, I have a question for Zero. :)

Are you a man Zero? I wonder, it's easy to play a part on a message board. Do you want to tell, I am curious. :)



Originally posted by Asguard
if the mother is giving the child up or thinking of aborting it then the father is WAY more likly to be the one who wants to care for it

If the mother is thinking of abortion, you can jump high and low, you cannot do a thing about it. It's the body of the woman, if she really doesn't want the baby, she can easily do an abortion. I am sorry to say so, this is a fact. It can happen while you are at your work or whatever.

What if she does not want to carry the baby for 9 months? What if the troubles are to much on her? What if she's worrying about her figure?

I agree with you though, the father should have a chance to raise the child, if the mother is not willing to do so. Anyways, I think it's not much of a choice you have here...

sorry its not HER body

if i said inorder for you to stay beautiful you had to kill 5 inocent children you wouldn't do it (well i HOPE you wouldn't)

your killing an inocent life because you don't feel like losing your figure??????????????????

strange, i expected a coment like that from xev but i thought YOU had more heart

and YES xev there are more single mothers, i said i know a lot of single FATHERS

and they have a lot harder time B\W

antidescrimation laws and stuff protect single mothers and alow them to work during school hrs and the like, none of that seems to protect single fathers

My goodness Asguard! Are you having your period or something like that? Or are you willingly not listening to what I say?

It are examples "silly" man, it's not how I am...:confused:

BTW, how do you know single fathers are having a much more hard time than single mothers? Have you ever been in that position?

I have! You want some stories on it? To feed your anger or whatever mood you're in...

actully i have friends who are both single mothers AND single fathers and the goverment makes it WAY easier for a single mother (NOT saying its easy for them because its NOT, its very difficult) than for a single father

im confused by what you mean tho

your saying that its ok to have an abortion if a womens worried about her figure

i responded to that

the rest of that post was for xev

I don't recall I've said it was ok to do an abortion. As a matter of fact, I am against abortion. I was just giving you examples from what some women bring up as an excuse to get an abortion or to not go through a pregnancy. And yes, there are certainly women who do not want to lose their figures and because of that one, stupid reason, they don't get pregnant or are having an abortion.

I think an abortion is only ok if there are major complications expected during pregnancy. A very good reason it has to be though. Again, that is only my opinion.

I think it's never easy, raising a child, whether you have to do it alone or with both, mother and father...

My opinion is that an abortion should require a court order and that it can only be obtained if its a rape case or if the womans life is at risk

other than that there are 100's of couples who can't have children and would LOVE to adoped one

abortion should require a court order and that it can only be obtained if its a rape case or if the womans life is at risk

That should take care of the so called getting pregnant by accident? I think a woman who's consistently not wanting to be pregnant and gets pregnant by accident, still will have an abortion anyhow. It's only taken into illegality again then. I do not think this a good thing, 'cause then you get all the fucked up doctors who only do abortions for a high price and who don't do their jobs good.

There are up and down sides to every subject. What about getting pregnant like some godbelievers do. Having babies like rabbits. Sometimes 12 - 16 or so. That's not normal is it? Poor woman who has to carry out all these pregnancies/delivering babies and has to look after the younger children while being pregnant all the time. The Arabs are good in it too, in getting babies like rabbits I mean.

I agree with you that a lot of couples without children would love to adopt one. Then again, a lot of those couples have rules and demands on what kind of child they want. Like it's a children store or so.

It doesn't work out all that well in practice. Intentions are good, as it concerns humans, there's always something going another way than expected...

*stRgrl*, very sorry to hear about that guy. People should take responsibility for their actions.

That's really all there is to it for me. If two people are involved (as in sex), two people are responsible for the consequences.

I should also add that I am reasonably certain I will not know exactly how I feel about pregnancy and abortion until/unless I am personally involved in that situation.

Originally posted by Asguard
Ok people

i was reading one of those crapy womens mags (ok i was REALLLLLLLLLLLLY bord)

It had a servey in it that said less than 10% of women would ask the fathers opinion before deciding to abort or adopt out their child

Now womens groups have been complaning for YEARS that guys get a girl pregnant then don't surport the mother or his child

i think guys like this are ASSHOLES but what do people think about this servey?

I mean if women are asking guys to pay for there child shouldn't they at least ask his OPINION before killing the child? and if they are chosing to give the child up for adoption then the father might want to look after it. Whats better? the biological father or a total stranger?

I think, it really depends on the situation as each case is unique. If the child is going to come into the world with no support, no prosepcts no money, then save it from its destiny. It need two loving parents who are capable of supporting it. Otherwise if one of the parents is prepaed to support it properly then there is no problems.... as far as aborting without consulteing the father, unless the father is violent and dangerous to the welfare of the mum and baby, then the father has every right to have a say. But again, it is all very subject to its own circumstance......

Asguard:

your killing an inocent life because you don't feel like losing your figure??????????????????

strange, i expected a coment like that from xev but i thought YOU had more heart

I'm confuuuuuused.....what does my figure have to do with anything?

Are you suggesting that I am the Elizabeth Bathony (http://www.abacom.com/~jkrause/bathory.html) of Sciforums? :p


and YES xev there are more single mothers, i said i know a lot of single FATHERS

You miss my point. My point is that males are much less likely to attempt to raise a child.

And you've not answered my question - do you really think there is no difference between that mass of cells and a child?

Me?? Are you doubting that I am a guy???? Awwwkk!!!! *Zero bangs head on floor*

Ahem, yes I am indeed a guy.

Originally posted by Asguard
My opinion is that an abortion should require a court order and that it can only be obtained if its a rape case or if the womans life is at risk

other than that there are 100's of couples who can't have children and would LOVE to adoped one

But asguard, it is not like there arnt plenty of children to adopt. If the child is brought into the world unwanted, what point is there of having the child at all? If simply the parents do not want the child, because they are financially unstable, or the baby would be in a threatening environment isnt that solid enough reason for not having the child. You will never know what you loose by not having the baby. That can be a good and a bad thing, but if you bring the baby into the world with the odds againts it, it is not fair on the child, the family or the government who have to end up supporting it. I realise that gives wealthier family's better prospects of ahving children, but really its the welfare of the children you need to be concerned about. I dont mind if you bring a child into the world loving it and being prepared for it, but if you bring it into the world with no want for it, it would be better off not being had at all. THats sounds harsh, but isnt it reasonable?

Originally posted by Zero
Me?? Are you doubting that I am a guy???? Awwwkk!!!! *Zero bangs head on floor*

Ahem, yes I am indeed a guy.

Hahaha, c'mon, pick up your head from the floor. :bugeye: It was not the intention to hurt your feelings in any way. I take your word for it! I was just wondering. ;)

And wandering offtopic, so I leave...(still laughing :D )


BTW, if we are gonna talk adoption here, I have some things to say too. There are people who take a child for adoption and then if the child is not exactly what they want him/her to be, they get rid of the child just as easy again.

Want an example of it..?

Originally posted by Banshee


Hahaha, c'mon, pick up your head from the floor. :bugeye: It was not the intention to hurt your feelings in any way. I take your word for it! I was just wondering. ;)

And wandering offtopic, so I leave...(still laughing :D )


BTW, if we are gonna talk adoption here, I have some things to say too. There are people who take a child for adoption and then if the child is not exactly what they want him/her to be, they get rid of the child just as easy again.

Want an example of it..?

I would not be suprised Banshee, every single case is so different. It is hard to apply one rule i.e. No abortion, across the board. People have the power to create life, this isnt a reason to say we should have to power to destroy it, but knowing what life is, be able to make the decision whether to begin it or not!

Originally posted by Agent@5
I would not be suprised Banshee, every single case is so different. It is hard to apply one rule i.e. No abortion, across the board. People have the power to create life, this isnt a reason to say we should have to power to destroy it, but knowing what life is, be able to make the decision whether to begin it or not!

Yes! I agree with that. :) Good points you make. :) Especially the last sentence:"but knowing what life is, be able to make the decision whether to begin it or not!

It's a case/decision from as well men and women together...

yay, that sthe first time anyones agreed with mee!! w00t!

has anyone ever heard of a father forcing (by law) a mother to give birth?(just curiouse)

we need to channel our energy into quality trustworthy
contraception in a form that parents may force thier children to have and that all children must have "by law" up to a certain age and then all parents must be schooled and finacialy supported .
banshee... no wonder there seems to be more unpredjudice people from your home country if they raise thier children in a caring supported enviroment :D

you sound like you would be a good mothers-teacher! :D .
me...? you ask...? .. my childhood...?
i am an exception to the rule
but luckly i was born insane so i can deal with this crazzy world on a level playing feild :D

until children are looked after better than money and jewels we can only hope that by mear chance most will be educated and cared for and provided with a loving home.

peace and light

Originally posted by Ripleofdeath
until children are looked after better than money and jewels we can only hope that by mear chance most will be educated and cared for and provided with a loving home.

Now, that is very well spoken Ripleofdeath. :) Stay your beautiful self. If you call yourself "insane", then I can only hope there will be more like you walking down on Earth...;)

whether biological kid or adopted, if you have that special bond...it really doesn't matter who made the kid. It is THE kid, and the kid the mother will cherish. The mother and the kid both made efforts to establish the bond, and therefore they belong to each other as a family. That is why I do not like the see some guy or girl using legal force to 'take back' their biological kid away from a foster parent. It's just taking a kid away from parents who put a lot of effort and love into the kid.

I am a Christian girl. I belive that abortion is wrong, NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!!!!!! My cousin was raped when she was 16. All of her friends and part of her family was pressing her towards abortion. They told her that she is too young to have a baby and that it wasn't her fault. No, it wasn't her fault at all!! She could have listened to them and killed the most precious thing that has ever happened to her, but she chose to listen to God. Now I am happy to say that my baby cousin is going to turn 4 in April. He is a true blessing.

Hi! My name is Johnny and the giant floating head of Mohammed Ali in the sky (though, he sometimes prefers to be called Cassius - or CC) says that walking out my front door with my left foot first is wrong, just like abortion, so I don't do it. I don't know what I'd do without my giant floating head of Mohammed Ali! Jeez, I'd have to think for myself!

Note: I, of course, also believe in the giant floating head of Mohammed so much that I find it a good idea to enforce my religious beliefs on everyone else, despite that they may not share my religion - for example, I believe abortion should be illegal because Cassius says it's wrong. Yes, yes, I know it's technically against the law to enforce religious beliefs on people - but dang it, Cassius really thinks it's wrong!!!

Wow... how helpful and on-topic. An excellent post pointing out how those that are pro-abortion often are completely unable to empathize with the other side. Thank you very much Tyler.


And about the actual topic... Either the father's opinion should be equally important as that of the mother's, or the father should have no say, and no responsibility. The former is a bit preferable, but fairly unlikely. Choosing one or the other is the only fair way to go about it...

"Wow... how helpful and on-topic. An excellent post pointing out how those that are pro-abortion often are completely unable to empathize with the other side. Thank you very much Tyler."

I have a serious problem with people who want abortion to be illegal because it is "wrong" in the bible (or any other religious text). I'm strongly for the right to be religious, but am strongly against people who wish to base laws on their religion. That is called forcing one's religion on others. And that seems just a tad bit bad to me. Perhaps you differ in views on this - in which case feel free to argue that forcing one's religion on society is good!

So, if someone came to the conclusion that abortion was wrong through personal thought and was not influence by religion, you would have no problem with them wanting to "force" their beliefs on the rest of the population?

Frankly, beliefs are forced on us all the time, that we may or may not agree with. I don't see how it is relevant if the belief was derived from religion or otherwise.

Actually, I don't believe laws should be based on right/wrong - but that's a whole nother story.

Religious doctrine implies zero to minimal thought. It means that a person has seen a set of rules and follows them. What you've described ("someone came to the conclusion that abortion was wrong through personal thought") implies that they thought it out and came to some sort of logical conclusion. I believe it's in society's best interest to have the people think for themselves and go about with coming to logical conclusions rather than follow a pre-existant doctrine. Had the latter been all we do - well, society would still be one backwards place.

Sue me - I prefer thinking to blindly following. And yes, I do realize that all of us even while thinking on our own have been largely influenced by outside forces - but that's better than being outright controlled.

actully this thread was about wether its right to make laws which say the guy MUST pay (not a bad thing) but has no legal rights

all responcabilitys and no rights

is this just? (that was the question)

No, if the male leaves, the female will simply have to wait untill she is picked up by another male who will kill the old males children to ensure only his genes will be passed on,
simple, makes sense
....... oh wait thats lions, aaaaah I don't know, I don't really understand humans.

all responcabilitys and no rights

is this just?

Who cares?

xev you DO realise this is an ethical debate section

the asumption would be that anyone who posts in the thread cares enough to post there opinion

Some issues that seem somehow relevant, which arose during the nine months prior to my daughter's arrival:

- I was not consulted re: "To keep or not to keep" until after Tigger "decided" to keep the child. This is, for a period, a reversible decision, but that's beside the point.

- Tigger calculated the pregnancy and lied about her immediate medical condition.

- Absolutely none of the parenting democracy was democratic. Tigger said, "You name her." I said, "Grace Katherine" and Tigger replied by handing me a baby-name book. I made a list. None of the names on the list made it. In the end, we settled for a "compromise" in Emma Grace de Cleyre. Turns out the "if we don't find anything better" compromise was what Tigger wanted all along. She named my daughter after the baby on Friends.

- I found out that I was to be a father while on a planned eight-week withdrawal from the world; I had quit my job and intended to do something about it in a couple of months, as I had survival money. I've never been back to work since.

- We live in a very nice house which is a gift from Tigger's parents in lieu of an apology for their crappy parenting. Seriously--this is their big offering of amends and Tigger doesn't get it.

- As a result, I live in a nice house that I don't pay for, do not work a standard 5x8 week, and get the better role of raising my daughter.

Sure, I'm pissed that all of the decisions I was supposed to be in on were sort of taken away from me, but why bother? I'm in paradise.

I realize this does little to help the issues of the topic, but I figured it was a chance for me to actually gloat (mark your calendars, I usually strive for subtlety).

And it's two cents' worth on decisions, responsibilities, and general respect.

(Emma calls ....)

:m:,
Tiassa :cool: