Why does everyone place the question mark directly behind the last word, instead of inserting a space first ?
Since the question mark also functions as a full stop I can see the logic in omitting the space, but it is aesthetically unpleasing (to me).

Same goes for the exclamation mark.

Punctuation always (?) comes directly after a letter.

Punctuation always (?) comes directly after a letter.

Yea.. but doesn't it look like shit ?
Also, when adding the space, the question or exclamation marks stick out more; they are more readily noticed in a text.

I'm the opposite from you (at last!!), I prefer the question mark to come directly after the word.

I'm the opposite from you (at last!!), I prefer the question mark to come directly after the word.

Hmm.. before posting this I looked around here and there; I seem to be the only one that does it.
It struck me as strange that, in spite of the apparent illiteracy of some people here, these punctuation marks are placed correctly by (as far as I can see) everyone but me.

:(

Could be from laziness that the semi-literates get it correct.
One less keystroke...

Could be from laziness that the semi-literates get it correct.
One less keystroke...

Good point..
Do you think the way I write them looks weird ? I have become weirdly over-conscious about it now lol

No it doesn't look weird.

No it doesn't look weird.

:)

I just realized, people do leave a space between the last word and a question mark when writing by hand..

Is the space before the question mark like a small pause, you know the way we do when talking ? I don't use a space, or rather I didn't, but now I see the charm in it.

Is the space before the question mark like a small pause, you know the way we do when talking ? I don't use a space, or rather I didn't, but now I see the charm in it.

:thumbsup:

I just find it more aesthetically pleasing to leave the space.

And it's all about aesthetics. Definitely.

:)

I just realized, people do leave a space between the last word and a question mark when writing by hand..

I don't

Hmm, maybe it's just my imagination..

There appear to be spaces:

http://www.buytaert.net/cache/images-drupalcamp-paris-2008-writing-tests-for-drupal-700x700.jpg

http://www.rossettiarchive.org/img/thumbs_big/3-1876.facsimile.m.jpg

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/4/2008/04/thumb463x_computer-handwriting.jpg

I have to admit that I also came across plenty examples showing no spaces though..

And it's all about aesthetics. Definitely.

Well, I'm now somewhat torn between writing correctly or aesthetically pleasing..
I think I will go for the latter though :)

You know what Enmos ? Fuck convention. If you're intelligent enough to know the rules then you're damn well intelligent enough to break them too. And while writing may be a means of communication it's also somewhat of an artform. I think it shows flair and panache when someone can take what they've been taught and origami the fuck out of it.

If you're intelligent enough to know the rules then you're damn well intelligent enough to break them too. And while writing may be a means of communication it's also somewhat of an artform. I think it shows flair and panache when someone can take what they've been taught and origami the fuck out of it.
Hear hear :worship:

...If you're intelligent enough to know the rules then you're damn well intelligent enough to break them too. ....

like ee cummings?

Oh yeah.
That guy rocks.

if i love You

if i love You
(thickness means
worlds inhabited by roamingly
stern bright faeries

if you love
me) distance is mind carefully
luminous with innumerable gnomes
Of complete dream

if we love each (shyly)
other, what clouds do or Silently
Flowers resembles beauty
less than our breathing



Is that not like literary opulence poured into a wide brimmed glass and sipped with an olive in front of a roaring fire ? Damn, I can feel my chest becoming taught and my head dizzying even now, years after my first reading of ee cummings.

One good reason not to put in a space is that if you're using a word processor you risk having your question mark bumped to the next line, dangling.

I have a more relevant question...

Who the hell decided that ? should denote a question?

The Yogic Punctuation Committee. After much deliberation it was decided that questions asked in English should be marked at the end with the symbol we know as the question mark. Those questions asked in Spanish should be marked with one at the beginning with an upside down one also. So spake the Committee, so it was done.

The question mark originated in the second half of the 8th century, as the punctus interrogativus. At that time, it looked like a lightning flash, striking right to left.

Hmm.. before posting this I looked around here and there; I seem to be the only one that does it.
It struck me as strange that, in spite of the apparent illiteracy of some people here, these punctuation marks are placed correctly by (as far as I can see) everyone but me.

:(

Why the bias? I notice you did not leave a space for your ellipsis (which should have three dots, btw, Just so...), period, comma and semi-colon. Not even the brackets. Why?

It does look a little weird putting a question mark directly after the last word. It's just too close. It also looks weird putting a space there, though (at least, I think so). It looks like its a whole separate word rather than a punctuation mark. I mean, not a word but...just a separate entity. When it's an equal distance from the end of one sentence and the beginning of another, it's not a definite "Here's where the sentence ends, and now here's a new one." It kinda runs together.

I think keyboards ought to have a special space bar for using between the last word of a sentence and a question mark. A halfway point.

As for the exclamation mark, I think it looks fine immediately after the last word!

The space between the end of a sentence and the question mark may be a hangover from the old days of mechanical typewriters (I'm guessing).

A lot of people have various habits they were taught when they learned to type. Another one is putting two spaces instead of one between the full stop (period) at the end of one sentence and the capital letter starting the next sentence. That's fine if you're using a mechanical typewriter, but any word processor worth its salt should add in a little extra space automatically. This is what professional typesetting software does. If you insist on adding the extra space, as a lot of people still do, the text looks a little odd when word processed.

That's fine if you're using a mechanical typewriter, but any word processor worth its salt should add in a little extra space automatically. This is what professional typesetting software does. And try to get rid of it when you don't want it. Pain in the ass? ass ? (note: there are three space bar spaces between the period after "it" and the P of Pain, in that last sentence. At least, there are in my typing and desired format.

And why is there no space before an ellipsis... but there is one after it? Hmm...

Similar to a comma, full stop, colon, semi-colon...
There's a space after ALL, except apostrophe(?), punctuation.

Examine a question mark carefullu and you will see that iy consists of two parts, the top curly bit and the bottom bit, which is a full stop. The full stop comres at the end of a sentence and the marlk of interrogation is placed on top of it to save space.

( ...Is that clear... ) ?

Why the bias? I notice you did not leave a space for your ellipsis (which should have three dots, btw, Just so...), period, comma and semi-colon. Not even the brackets. Why?

The answer is simple, I think it looks better ;)
I put two dots, in stead of three, on purpose.
The comma and the full stop are there to break or stop a sentence abruptly.
The question mark and exclamation mark appear to belong to the word they are 'stuck' to. I guess I want it to be clear they have an effect on the whole sentence, not just the last word.
Brackets.. hmm.. they are ugly either way. Sometimes I use spaces, sometimes I don't.. depends on the situation I guess.

Buttercups ( Family Ranunculaceae )

It does look a little weird putting a question mark directly after the last word. It's just too close. It also looks weird putting a space there, though (at least, I think so). It looks like its a whole separate word rather than a punctuation mark. I mean, not a word but...just a separate entity. When it's an equal distance from the end of one sentence and the beginning of another, it's not a definite "Here's where the sentence ends, and now here's a new one." It kinda runs together.

I think keyboards ought to have a special space bar for using between the last word of a sentence and a question mark. A halfway point.
I like that suggestion.

And why is there no space before an ellipsis... but there is one after it? Hmm...

Aesthetics.. ;)

Examine a question mark carefullu and you will see that iy consists of two parts, the top curly bit and the bottom bit, which is a full stop. The full stop comres at the end of a sentence and the marlk of interrogation is placed on top of it to save space.

( ...Is that clear... ) ?

Yes.
But.. it looks like shit.
Besides, you put a space too ! :p

Yes.
But.. it looks like shit.
Besides, you put a space too ! :p

Dat heb ik voor jou gemaakt. I knew you would appreciate it. I always us e a space but have never really thought about why I do it.

Dat heb ik voor jou gemaakt. I knew you would appreciate it. I always us e a space but have never really thought about why I do it.

lol :thumbsup:

I have to have the '?' at the very end. Not a space and then the very end. I just like standardization.

I like standardization too. If I was going to insert a space between the end fo my sentence and the question mark, I would have to do the same thing with periods, commas, and every other punctuation mark.

I have to have the '?' at the very end. Not a space and then the very end. I just like standardization.

Whose standards ?

I like standardization too. If I was going to insert a space between the end fo my sentence and the question mark, I would have to do the same thing with periods, commas, and every other punctuation mark.

No you wouldn't. You could choose to do otherwise. Go on, be a rebel !

What I'm saying is, I wouldn't have to, but I would want to, because I would want my writing style to be standardized rather than having arbitrary spaces after only some of the punctuation marks. It wouldn't feel right to me to use a spae after just one or two punctuation marks, but not the rest.

I have to have the '?' at the very end. Not a space and then the very end. I just like standardization.


I like standardization too. If I was going to insert a space between the end fo my sentence and the question mark, I would have to do the same thing with periods, commas, and every other punctuation mark.

Ever hear of Obsessive-compulsive disorder ? :p

What I'm saying is, I wouldn't have to, but I would want to, because I would want my writing style to be standardized rather than having arbitrary spaces after only some of the punctuation marks. It wouldn't feel right to me to use a spae after just one or two punctuation marks, but not the rest.

There are lots of exceptions in language already.
Besides, what wrong with personalizing your writing style a bit. Everyone does it, you included.. we don't have the same handwriting.

Whose standards ?

I supposed every english/grammar teacher I have ever had. It also seems to be my nature to like it. Its why I have the job I have.

There are lots of exceptions in language already.
Besides, what wrong with personalizing your writing style a bit. Everyone does it, you included.. we don't have the same handwriting.

My writing style is personalized already. I write in all capital letters (often).

My writing style is personalized already. I write in all capital letters (often).

That's exactly what I meant.. :p
Me too btw.. capitals.

I was going to comment on the semi colon... but I'm too half arsed!

I was going to comment on the semi colon... but I'm too half arsed!

My semi colon ? Go ahead, I probably didn't use it the right way.. (?)

My semi colon ? Go ahead, I probably didn't use it the right way.. (?)

You've got a persecution complex now too?

No it was my usual pathetic attempt at humour semi ( half), colon (arse?), that's all.

You've got a persecution complex now too?

No it was my usual pathetic attempt at humour semi ( half), colon (arse?), that's all.

Ah ok.. :)

No, I don't have a persecution complex. It's just that I'm never sure about using semi colons.

Ah ok.. :)

No, I don't have a persecution complex. It's just that I'm never sure about using semi colons.

Yeah, best to keep 'em under wraps!

Yeah, best to keep 'em under wraps!

Why aren't you out chasing kangaroos or whatever you Aussies do ?

Babies' colons are kept under wraps.

You know what Enmos ? Fuck convention. If you're intelligent enough to know the rules then you're damn well intelligent enough to break them too. And while writing may be a means of communication it's also somewhat of an artform. I think it shows flair and panache when someone can take what they've been taught and origami the fuck out of it.The problem with using unconventional typography is that it slows down the readers. Yes, that extra little space isn't going to mislead anyone but it's going to make our eyes dally just a few milliseconds longer, wondering what special meaning is lurking there. Multiply it by every question mark in an entire piece of writing and multiply that by all the people who are going to read it (hopefully, or you wouldn't bother writing it), and you're wasting people's time just to make the point that you're an iconoclast. It's rather rude if you look at it that way.

It's like people who don't bother to use their spell checker. We've recently discovered that we read words holistically, all the letters at once rather than sequentially. So when there's one missing or wrong or extra, we have to stop and puzzle it out. Those people are being rude to us, wasting a lot of our collective time to indulge their laziness and save a little of their time.
like ee cummings?We expect reading poetry to be hard work, so if it's typeset unconventionally it's just one more thing to struggle with on our way to the revelation that comes with understanding. Or it's just one more thing that makes many of us simply not ever read poetry. Life's too short to spend any of it trying to figure out what the hell a poet is trying to tell me. :)
The space between the end of a sentence and the question mark may be a hangover from the old days of mechanical typewriters (I'm guessing).Intheearliestwritingthewordsjustallranto getherwithoutanypunctuationatall (That space in the middle of the line showed up at random, I didn't put it there!)

Then somebody got the bright idea of putting spaces between the words so we could tell where one leaves off and the next one begins. It was simply for readability. There's no readability problem with punctuation marks because it's obvious that it comes between the end of one word and the beginning of the next. (With obvious exceptions like the apostrophe in contractions.) So from the standpoint of reading ergonomics, there's really no need to put a space on either side of a punctuation mark!

Spaces take up--well--space, and printers hate to waste space. Which is why they have spaces of different width in professional typesetting and always use the smallest one they can get away with. I don't really know why the convention arose to put a space to the right of a period or any other punctuation. I'd guess it was because the space between the words was there first, and when they invented punctuation marks they just left the one space and put the punctuation mark with the sentence it belongs to. It would be pretty weird to read:

How are you feeling today ?I'm just fine !Even my cat is having a nice day ,when he bothers to get out of bed.
A lot of people have various habits they were taught when they learned to type. Another one is putting two spaces instead of one between the full stop (period) at the end of one sentence and the capital letter starting the next sentence.That is indeed an old typing convention which I remember, as an old typist. It took me years to stop putting the extra space in on word processors.
That's fine if you're using a mechanical typewriter, but any word processor worth its salt should add in a little extra space automatically.Au contraire. The word processor embedded in SciForums, for example, compresses out extra spaces!
And try to get rid of it when you don't want it. Pain in the ass? ass ? (note: there are three space bar spaces between the period after "it" and the P of Pain, in that last sentence. At least, there are in my typing and desired format.They show up in the composing window so your original characters are obviously preserved, but they do not appear in the actual post. As I said, this WP software compresses them out. I'd say it was to save space, but there is no economy of space on this SciForums. Half the screen is whitespace. There's way too much space between paragraphs, and the quote boxes are ridiculous.

The problem with using unconventional typography is that it slows down the readers. Yes, that extra little space isn't going to mislead anyone but it's going to make our eyes dally just a few milliseconds longer, wondering what special meaning is lurking there. Multiply it by every question mark in an entire piece of writing and multiply that by all the people who are going to read it (hopefully, or you wouldn't bother writing it), and you're wasting people's time just to make the point that you're an iconoclast. It's rather rude if you look at it that way.
I suspect the extra space doesn't slow down people at all.
In fact, I think the question mark is spotted more readily this way.


It's like people who don't bother to use their spell checker. We've recently discovered that we read words holistically, all the letters at once rather than sequentially. So when there's one missing or wrong or extra, we have to stop and puzzle it out. Those people are being rude to us, wasting a lot of our collective time to indulge their laziness and save a little of their time.
Doesn't this contradict what you said above ? The question mark isn't part of the word, yet it's stuck to it. Word recognition should suffer from sticking the question mark to a word.


Intheearliestwritingthewordsjustallrantogetherwith outanypunctuationatall (That space in the middle of the line showed up at random, I didn't put it there!)

Then somebody got the bright idea of putting spaces between the words so we could tell where one leaves off and the next one begins. It was simply for readability. There's no readability problem with punctuation marks because it's obvious that it comes between the end of one word and the beginning of the next. (With obvious exceptions like the apostrophe in contractions.) So from the standpoint of reading ergonomics, there's really no need to put a space on either side of a punctuation mark!
:bugeye: For real.. ?


Spaces take up--well--space, and printers hate to waste space. Which is why they have spaces of different width in professional typesetting and always use the smallest one they can get away with. I don't really know why the convention arose to put a space to the right of a period or any other punctuation. I'd guess it was because the space between the words was there first, and when they invented punctuation marks they just left the one space and put the punctuation mark with the sentence it belongs to. It would be pretty weird to read:

How are you feeling today ?I'm just fine !Even my cat is having a nice day ,when he bothers to get out of bed.
It's weird not because you put the spaces between the word and the punctuation marks, but because you left out the space between the sentences.

My writing style is personalized already. I write in all capital letters (often).

I know a German guy who starts every noun with capital letter! ;)


Back on topic, I don't know if any of you has ever read the Portuguese writer José Saramago... he's got a very interesting way to use ponctuations.

cheers

I know a German guy who starts every noun with capital letter! ;)


Back on topic, I don't know if any of you has ever read the Portuguese writer José Saramago... he's got a very interesting way to use ponctuations.

cheers

Lots of commas ?

If I remember, I will start putting a space prior to ? & !. It does look better, Putting a space prior to a period or comma just looks like a mistake and is not aesthetically pleasing.

BTW: I wonder if it is incorrect usage to not spell question mark & exclamation point, requiring an awkward period following one of them.

One good reason not to put in a space is that if you're using a word processor you risk having your question mark bumped to the next line, dangling.

Not if you use a nonbreaking space.

Why does everyone place the question mark directly behind the last word, instead of inserting a space first ?


Why would you want to type an extra space?