Questions about Islam! - SciForums.com

heflores

01-17-03, 03:15 PM

__________________________________________________ __
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sycoindian
[B]hef... thanks for your answers firstly... i didnt mean to hide the beginnin of the surah... i was just puttin down what i thought was relevant.. okk.. i get ur interpretation of that surah.. makes sense to me... so i guess u can explain certain things to me...

- why is polygamy allowed in Islam?
- how did the sharia law come about? are there any specific references in the Quran that points out to the current government systems based on your holy book?
- I dont have any reference for the question i posed in my first post... its something that i've observed living in an Islamic country at present... men can marry non believers while it is condemned if women do... seems like double standards to me...]
__________________________________________________ _

I wish I can thank you too, but one thing I have learned from this cruel forum is to not say anything that I might want to take back later even if it was nice, so please let's hold of on the thank yous.

Please note that Islam meaning "Submission to the creator" must be understood and studied through the Koran only without external influences such as other muslims, Sharia, Hadith, ect. Right now, you're getting my version of Islam. Please don't mistake that as the correct interpretation of Koran. Let your heart and mind judge in the matter before you absorb any further information from me. I'm struggling you know...and I don't want to pull you in my struggle.... You need to reach your own Islam, or state of submission to god. Islam doesn't belong to a group or to individuals.

Secondly, The Quran doesn't allow or disallow things. As I said, we're in a test and we have a free will to choose. The Koran represents to us alternatives, and holds individuals accountable of their choices. It's not kindergarden here, where god is laying on a couple of rules that must be blindly followed. Your question was why did Islam allow polygamy??? My question to you is what is the alternative?? The alternative of god allowing polygimy is:
a- God prohibits polygamy
b- God doesn't mention anything in regards to it.
Well, in the Koran, god didn't choose to prohibit it or to stay impartial to it, which it could have. The koran chose to allow it but allowed it under very strict condition in the orphan situation. He gave the father of the orphans a choice and emplored him to think hard and to be just. Now, please don't make a mockery of our elevated discussion and start talking about such and such person doing such and such thing in the name of Islam....In that case, let's not waste each other time and go follow such and such person footsteps.

Thirdly, I don't believe in Sharia, Hadith, ect. Many may call me a non muslim for that, but oh well, May god decide between us in matters that we may differ.

Finally, I mght have not answered all parts of your question or no part at all, but I'll stop here and let you take over again.

heflores

01-17-03, 07:36 PM

Then we are in perfect agreement my friend. Your opinion is perfectly yours and you are accountable for your beliefs. Same here, I'm accountable for mine.

Vienna

01-17-03, 07:57 PM

Islam or Isn'tlam? Who gives a crap.

Vienna

01-17-03, 07:59 PM

You're right Blackstone, he's a phoney.

heflores

01-17-03, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
buddy, i dont represent my opinion, i represent the actual islamic opinion from the quran itself, not my own opinion, unlike you, you should display the actual picture without trying to decorate facts and change in them trying to make your religion look better, i quoted the real explaination of the verses from the biggest most reliable quran-explaination sources, you, created up a fake one to justify it.

okay, loet me follow your logic here, except I suspect no logic to be present.

-You are very hatefull of Islam, so you must not be a muslim.
- You hate my opinion and accuse me of purifying Islam,
- You admit that the reality is that Islam is full of shit.
- you condemn me for purifying it.

What may I ask you wish to accomplish my friend.??? You don't like the Islam you see and you don't want to see reform, so what the hell do you want??

Then, you must be a decoy also.

heflores

01-17-03, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Vienna
You're right Blackstone, he's a phoney.

She my love, She. I'm a she.

Anyways, what are you nodding about anyways. DIdn't I tell you in another forum to go to bed already because Chris is not here to save your butt.

Ms. Little Vienna, have you always felt the impulse to be the follower, I can teach you to be a leader for a change. You seem always to follow things and don't have the guts to come up with your own shit. I pity you.

spookz

01-17-03, 08:26 PM

With respect to the to the treatment of women in Islam, there are two sides visible; the theoretical side as proscribed in the Holy Qu�ran and the reality of everyday treatment as practiced currently in society. It is important to comprehend this theoretical side of thought to gain a better understanding of the Islamic faith. From this one can see that Islam indeed does not support or condone the subjugation of women, as some would have you believe. A typical error made when analyzing Islam is many of the verses in the Qu�ran may at first appear sexist with no background to why they are stated as such. In other aspects however, it is quite clear and distinct such that unlike its past relatives, Judaism and Christianity, it denounces certain practices against females and even gives a different perspective on the �initial sin�. The reality of the matter though is still very grim to a degree. Some men do abuse their wives, mistreat them, and go against the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and the Qu�ran. This is unfortunate for Islam since these are the representations of Islam them often shown as what the �majority� supposedly does. This is not to negate the fact that it does indeed occur in Islam as with all faiths. That is to say, all faiths have bad members that would not be ideal in anyway to represent the majority, but this is especially negative for Islam when the western hemisphere truly knows very little with exception to what is shown on television. Often times certain �negative� images and practices are talked about and shown on television about Islam. In the following sections this writer will try to explain these misunderstandings of practices and explain why/what their actual significance and meaning(s) are.

"Western mass media has presented Islam and Muslims in various images and stereotypes and as a result, the majority of people think that most Muslims live in the Middle East. Few know that the largest populated nation is Indonesia in Southeast Asia and that tens of millions live in Central Asia, China, and India. Few know that there are more Muslims in Great Britain than Methodists; ten percent of France is Muslim; or that Muslims outnumber the Episcopalian community in the United States. The casual observer does not know Islam is an expanding world religion present on all continents and within many populations" (Braswell, 1).

http://salam.muslimsonline.com/~muslimrr/muslimwomen.html

http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/hijab.htm

spookz

01-17-03, 08:33 PM

sorry blackstone
you exposed nothing but yourself

;)

heflores

01-17-03, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
that was so hard to get eh?

i dont hate your opinion, i hate your lieing.

yes,you did that ..you lied..and i exposed to people the real deal ..

nothing...i just saw a muslim lieing about islamic facts and decorating it, so i recorrected the info and supported my talk with islamic sources itself..

i want to expose the real islam from islamic sources itself to let non-muslims know things that the islamic lieing machine dont want them to know.

Again you make absolutely no sense.

You said you hate my opinion because I lie.

I say: Using the words lying and openion can't be used together by a coherent person, since opinion implies point of view, and thus may not be called a lie. As long as I say, opinion or my point of view, I can't be lying.

You said:
nothing...i just saw a muslim lieing about islamic facts and decorating it, so i recorrected the info and supported my talk with islamic sources itself..

I say, it is none of your business stupid ass....How can you support a view to falsify a belief without providing alternative proof to support your side. Again an undecover Athiest have managed to show his true colors by falsifying a point of view without stating an alternative ground for us to stand on.

So back to my question, what do you want to accomplish????
Let me answer for you, because you don't seem to have a good hold on logic.
You want to proof that I'm wrong, yet you have nothing to offer to me in it's place, so you just want to confuse the hell out of everyone and me, so we may finally be at your level and share your same agony of being a non educated idoit.

heflores

01-17-03, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
:rolleyes:

please get some balls and actually debate about what i said if you have something against it..otherwise piss off.

I can testify for Spook's balls.......:) :) .They are very Islamic...very beautifull.......I want to go to bed tonight with that thought, so maybe I'll get out now.

spookz

01-17-03, 08:53 PM

blackstone
grab your ankles and wait for me.
i am gonna get islamic on your ass freak

:D

spookz

01-17-03, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by heflores
I can testify for Spook's balls.......:) :) .They are very Islamic...very beautifull.......I want to go to bed tonight with that thought, so maybe I'll get out now.

and i thought i could never blush! my hot arab princess!!!

:D

spookz

01-17-03, 09:09 PM

The advocates of hadith are fond of saying that the hadith explains the Quran
without which, they say the Quran cannot be understood. In other words
without hadith they will have to reject the Quran or at least ignore it.
The scholars also say that the hadith they call "Sahih Bukhary" is the best
hadith.

It can be easily proved that the hadith does not in any way explain the Quran
and that the "Sahih Bukhari" is not worth the papers it is printed on.

For evidence please refer to, and check all references of "Sahih Al-Bukhary"
by Dr. Muhammed Muhsin Khan, Islamic University, Medina Al-Munawwara.
Publisher "Kitab Bhavan, New Delhi, which is the Nine volume encyclopedia.
Vol. 6 of "Sahih Al-Bukhary" is devoted to the explanation of the Quran
(Tafsir). The other eight volumes prescribe things like drinking camels urine
to cure fevers (vol 7, hadith no 590), burning people first and then their
houses if they do not go the mosque on time, (vol.1, hadith no.626), dreaming
of undressing women (vol 9, hadith no.139 and 140), using shoes to garland
camels (Vol 2, hadith no 763), and other such non-sense.

But let us focus on vol. 6: the explanation of the Quran by Imam Bukhary.
Although the Quran has 114 suras or chapters, Bukhari does not explain all
the verses in all the suras. Sura 2, Al Baqarah has 286 verses, but Bukhari
only provides hadith for about 50 verses. This is slightly over 20% of Al
Baqarah. Bukhari has left the Ulamma groping the dark over the remaining 80%.

Sura AL Kauther (Sura 108) is the shortest sura in the Quran, only 3 verses.
However Bukhari "attempts" to explain the meaning of just one word "Kauther"
as sufficient to explain this whole Sura. Bukhari says; "Kauther" is a river
in heaven.

But simply, "Kauther" means "good in abundance". (Translation by President of
Islamic research, IFAT, Saudi Arabia). This also suggests that Imam Bukhari
did not know Arabic. It is a fact that Bukhari was a Persian from Bukhara and
his mother tongue was Farsi. The scholars have no records to show when
Bukhari learned Arabic. More about this later.

The greatest surprise of all is that 28 suras of the Quran are NOT
"explained" at all. The sura numbers are as follows; 23, 27, 29, 35, 51, 57,
58, 64, 67, 69, 70, 73, 76, 81, 82, 86, 88, 89, 90, 94, 100, 101, 103, 104,
105, 106, 107, and 109. Bukhari explains this away as follows "no hadith were
mentioned here."

According to the scholars only the Prophet is supposed to be the source of
the hadith. The hadith is supposed to explain the Quran. The BIG question is,
"Who went on un authorized holiday for 28 WHOLE SURAS of the Quran ?!!!

The scholars insist that the hadith explains the Quran. Hence the scholars
have to do away with 28 SURAS of the Quran because Bukhari did not explain
these 28 SURAS..

Therefore the boast by the scholars that those who uphold the QURAN ALONE and
do NOT depend on the hadith at all, cannot understand the Quran, falls FLAT
on its face. The scholars are in a far worse situation. 28 Suras are missing
and none of the other suras are explained in full by Bukhari.

To revert to the earlier point that the Persian Bukhari may not have known
Arabic, this is suggested by the way Bukhari has changed the names of certain
SURAS. By itself this is a strange phenomenon. The scholars themselves do NOT
know why Bukhary did this.

Non-Arabs sometimes refer to a Sura by its first verse. This is because they
may not have known the Arabic name for the SURA because they are not scholars
of the Quran or simply because they are not Arabs. Bukhari displays the same
characteristics.

Sura Al Naba (Sura 68) is labelled as Sura "Amma yatasa'alun", this is
actually part of the first verse of the sura.. Sura Al Baiyina (Sura 98) is
labelled as Sura "Lam Yakun". Again the beginning verses. Sura Al Takwir
(Sura 81) is labelled Sura "Idhash Shamsu Kuwirat". This is the start of
the first verse again. Sura Al Maarij (sura 70) is labelled Sura "Sa'ala
Sa'ilun".

Some SURAS have been given two names. Sura Al Insan (Sura 76) is labelled
Sura "Hal-Ata-insani" or Sura "Dahr".

But this is a revealing point because such labelling is more akin to reciters
who are not Arabs, who do not know the Arabic language. Apart from the fact
that Bukhari was Persian from Bukhara many scholars believe that he was also
blind. The next question is "WHO WROTE the Sahih Bukhari?!" It will also be
pertinent to see how Bukhari handles some of the explanations of the
verses-if and when he cares to explain them.

For example some explanations end with a blank space.:
Vol 6, Hadith number 50 seeks to explain Sura 2:223. After some narration it
continues like this;
Nafi' added regarding the verse: "So go to your tilth when or how you will.
Ibn Umar said; " It means one should approach his wife in........" The
explanation ends with a blank space. But not to worry. A footnote completes
the picture. The footnote says "Al Bukhary left a blank space here because he
was not sure of what Ibn Umar had said !." And yet this called "Sahih Al
Bukhary" Perhaps this is why some scholars have much problems in this
department.

There is also one of the most foolish and incredible explanation by Bukhari
for Sura 11:5. The beautiful meaning of the verse is actually :11:4 "To God
is your return and He has power over all things."

11:5 "Behold ! They fold up their hearts, that they may be hid from him. Ah!
Even when they cover themselves with their garments. He knows what they
conceal, and what they reveal. For He knows well the (innermost secrets) of
the hearts." 11:6 There is no moving creature on earth but its substance
depends on God; He knows its resting place and its temporary deposit. All is
in a clear Record." Translation by Presidency of Islamic Research, IFTA,
Saudi Arabia..

This meaning is crystal clear. We all answer to God. There is nothing we can
conceal from God. Every single thing that we do is in a clear Record.
"Kitaab-un Maubeen". So do not think you can hide anything from God.

NOW, Here is Bukhari's ridiculous explanation of the same verse in 11:5. Vol.
6 Hadith no. 203: Narrated Muhammed bin Abbad bin Jaafar that he heard Ibn
Abbas reciting: " No doubt! they fold up their breasts." 11:5 and asked him
about the explanation. He said, "Some people used to hide themselves while
answering the call of nature in an open space lest they be exposed to the
sky, so the above revelation was sent down regarding them.

According to Bukhari, the whole purpose of this narration was to tell the
Sahaba that God could see them defecating and sleeping in the desert!.
According to Bukhari's logic then, after this verse was revealed, the Sahaba
who travelled with their wives in the desert lost all their inhibitions,
since God could see them anyway. No need to hide anything.

Similarly Bukhari twists sura 5:87. To explain "5:87" Bukhari first quotes it
partially only, not in full, as follows : "O you who believe DO NOT make
unlawful the good things which God has made for you" 5:87

The explanation by Bukhari (Vol.6 Hadith no. 139) is as follows : Narrated
Abdullah "We used to participate in holy wars conducted by the prophet and we
had no women with us. So, we said (to the prophet) "Shall we castrate
ourselves "? But the prophet forbade us to do that and therefore he allowed
us to marry a woman temporarily) by giving her even a garment, and then the
prophet recited. "O you who believe ! Do not make unlawful for you...."
There is a footnote "Temporary marriage (Mut'a) was allowed in the early days
of Islam., but later, at the time of the Khaibar Battle, it was prohibited
(God knows it better)."

The uncertainty in the footnote lends support to the fact that this is an
evil lie against God and the prophet by Bukhari.

Sura 5:87 is actually as follows : "O ye who believe, make not unlawful for
you, but commit no excess. For God loveth not those given to excess."

Is prostitution an excess ? Worse than that it is an evil. Which Muslim
scholar will allow his daughter to receive "even a garment" as a payment for
temporarily servicing the lusts of some Sahaba ? Note how the Bukhari has
the sahaba coolly suggesting "Shall we castrate ourselves ?" as though it is
done every morning after breakfast.

In Sura 24:33 God and the messenger told us: "Let those who find not the
means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of
His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing, (for freedom)
give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given you. But
force NOT your girls into prostitution when they desire chastity, in order
that you make a gain in the goods of this life. If anyone compels them, (on
them) God is forgiving, Merciful."

In other words, do not look for sex outside marriage. If you cannot marry, it
is better to keep chaste. Control your lust. The messenger said do not force
anyone into prostitution, but instead Bukhari says the messenger set the
price for hanky panky at merely a piece of garment. This is Bukhari's
malicious lie against the Messenger. In truth the messenger told his men to
control their lusts : Sura 24:30 "Say to the believing men that they should
lower their gaze and guard their modesty, that will be better purity for
them, and God knows all that they do."

If anyone insisted on following their lusts, the Messenger would have told
them " God doth wish to turn to you, but the wish of those who follow their
lusts is that you should turn away from them, far away " Sura 4:27 (All
translation from Presidency of Islamic Research, IFTA- Saudi Arabia).

The Quran is crystal clear. But Bukhari says you can but a woman for a price
of cloth. Perhaps the scholars are gleeful at this suggestion also.

Here is another hadith that has neither head nor tail, It is started under
"The book of the Virtues of the Quran". May God saves us. Vol 6, hadith No
503. Narrated Valium Utham. "I was informed that Gabriel came to the prophet
while Um Salma was with him. Gabriel started talking (to the prophet). Then
the prophet asked Um Salma, "Who is this ? " She replied "He is Dihya (Al
Kalbi). When Gabriel had left Um Salma said; "By God, I did not take him for
anybody other than him ( i.e. Dihya) till I heard the sermon of the prophet
wherein he informed about the news of Gabriel." The subnarrator asked Utham :
From whom have you heard that ? Utham said "From Usama Binzaid".
God sent Gabriel with the revelations to be delivered to Muhammed. Therefore
Gabriel delivered the revelations to Muhammed. But here Bukhari says the
prophet did not know Gabriel had come to him. Instead he asks his wife !!.
Was the prophet's wife a Messenger also, such that she could hear Gabriel ?
And she calls him strange names like Dihya and Al Kalbi.

There is some confusion. Is God that inefficient that His angel Gabriel is
called Dihya and Kalbi, all in the course of duty of delivering revelations
to His messenger Muhammed ?

Let us see 2:97-98: "Say, who is an enemy to Gabriel for he brings the
revelation to thy heart by God's will, a confirmation of what went before.
And Guidance and glad tidings for those who believe. Who ever is an enemy to
God and His angels and prophets, to Gabriel and Michael, Lo..! God is an
enemy to those who reject faith. "

Gabriel brings the revelation straight into the prophet's heart (alaiqa
Qalbika bi idhnillah) with God's permission. But Bukhary says Gabriel just
started talking and the Prophet did not know who it was. He had to ask his
wife...!

"Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. With it came the
truthful spirit (Ruhil Kudus) to thy heart that thou mayest admonish, in the
perspicuous Arabic tongue" 26:192-195

Gabriel brought the revelation straight to the Prophet's heart . But Bukhari
says the prophet had to ask his wife of Gabriel : "WHO IS THIS ?"

It is easy to refute the Christian argument by referring to his own Bible. In
a similar way the "muslim" scholar who insists on giving eminence to
fabricated hadith can be countered by referring to his own books written by
the hands of their leaders like Imam Bukhari, without God's permission.

In Sura Al Baqarah, God says : Therefore woe to those who distort the
scripture with their own hands then say; "This is from God" Seeking a cheap
gain. Woe to them for distorting the scripture, and woe to them for their
illicit earnings."

As stated earlier the hadith of Bukhari is not worth the paper it is printed
on. By following such ludicrous hadith which clearly taint the good name of
the Prophet Muhammed, the Muslims have been lost for over 1000 years now.
They can only recall the glorious days of the Prophet. Little do they realize
that during the glorious days there was no hadith. There was only the Quran.

God is Great.

odin

01-17-03, 09:10 PM

This is good shit!
:cool:

odin

01-17-03, 09:14 PM

Welcome to this forum post often my friend!
:cool:

spookz

01-17-03, 09:20 PM

Many Muslims and non-Muslims who study Islam are overwhelmed by the number of
Ahadiths narrated by or attributed to Abu Hurayra. The corruption that entered traditional
Islam came through many false hadiths. Thousands of these hadiths were narrated by Abu
Hurayra. Next to QURAN, the word of God, Abu Hurayra is the second source for many
religious matters for traditional Muslims.

Who is Abu Hurayra any way ?
Islamic history books have enough about him to support the commandment in the Quran to
accept no hadiths but the Quran. See Quran 7:185, 45:6, 77:50, 39:23, 50:45......etc.

Abu Hurayra, came from Yemen in the seventh year of Hijra and converted to Islam.
He stayed in the company of the Prophet Muhammed less than two years

He narrated more than 5000 hadiths, about 5374 hadiths, from this two years
company, (Compare this with the few hadiths narrated by Aisha, Abu Baker, or
Omar after very long company of the prophet) .

" Taken from a book entitled Hadith Literature: It's Origin, Development, &
Special Features by Muhammed Zubayr Siddiqui:

1. Abu Hurayra narrated 5374 hadiths

4. 'Aisha Umm al-Mu'minin, 2210 hadiths

10. Umar Ibn al-Khattab, 537 hadiths

11. Ali Ibn Abi Talib, 536 hadiths

31. Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, 142 hadiths

First number indicates rank among all of those who narrated hadiths,
...second number indicates number of Ahadith given.

Compare the numbers of Hadiths given by Abu Baker by that of Abu Hurayra
while keeping in mind that Abu Baker accompanied our beloved Prophet for
about 23 years, while Abu Hurayra accompanied the Prophet for less than 2
years. 142 hadiths for 5374 hadiths.

Most of Abu Hurayra's narrated hadiths are called the "Aahad" hadiths, i.e.
hadiths only witnessed by one person, this one person was Abu Hurayra
himself. ( where is the rule of two witnesses for the truth, disregarded for
the sake of Abu Hurayra).

Some of the Prophets companions (Sahaba) accused him of being a liar, telling
lies about the prophet just to make up more hadiths and gain some status.
Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second guided Khalifa threatened Abu Hurayra to
send him to exile if he does not stop telling hadiths about Muhammed, he did
stop until Omar's assassination then started again.

He kept telling hadiths to please the Khalifa of the Muslims then, all the
time, including the time he lived in the royal palace of Muawaya in Syria.
Abu Hurayra told his audience that he is telling them hadiths that if he ever
mentioned when Omar was alive, he would be given several lashes.

Abu Jaafar Al Iskafy mentioned that the Khalifa, Muawaya, chose some of the
people, including Abu Hurayra to tell fabricated stories and hadiths about
Ali Ibn Abu Talib, the Prophet's cousin, to degrade him. Abu Hurayra lived in
Mu'aawiyah's royal palace then and served him including serving his political
views. He produced some of the hadiths that demean Ali, insult him and at
least make him in a lower grade to Abu Baker, Omar and Othman, only for the
pleasure of Mu'aawiyah. Abu Hurayra's stomach was more important than the
trtuh, then.

During Mu'aawiyah's rule, many hadiths, with the help of Abu Hurayra were
invented that support the view that the Imam or Khalifa, should be obeyed
just like God or the messenger. Contradicting the rule of the Quran that all
the matters should be democratic by consultation.(Do not forget that Abu
Hurayra was living in the Khalifa's royal palace at the time.)

Many of the hadiths that were narrated by Abu Hurayra contradict other
hadiths, including his own narrated hadiths and other people's hadiths and
contradict the Quran and contradict common sense.

Abu Hurayra narrated hadiths after Kaab Al Ahbar, who was a Jewish convert
who tried to explain the Quran by using the corrupted books of the Jews. He
produced some of the most outrageous hadiths that is full of contradiction to
the Quran, taken from false stories in the Torah.

The Islamic historians told the story of Abu Hurayra after given the
governorship of Bahrain by Omar, got very rich in two years, so Omar called
him back and told him

" You, the enemy of Allah, you stole the money of Allah. I made you the Emir
of Bahrain when you did not even have a pair of shoes, Where did you get
all this money (400,000 Dirham)?? " The history indicates that Omar took
10,000 Dirham from him.(Abu Huraura admitted for only 20,000 Dirham)

Abu Hurayra was the one accused most of fabricating hadiths. Aisha, the
Prophet's wife always accused him of telling inaccurate or incomplete stories
and of fabricating hadiths that she never heard the prophet saying them.

AISHA AND ABU HURAYRA, ON THE ODDS;

In the famous book "Taa'oueel Mukhtalaf Alhadith " by Ibn Qutaiba Al-Dinory,
the story of Aisha (the Prophet's wife) telling Abu Hurayra; " You tell ahadiths
about the prophet Muhammed that we never heard them from him"

He answered (as Bukhary reported); "You (Aisha) were busy with your mirror and
make up" She (Aisha) answered him; "It is you who were busy with your stomach
and hunger. Your hunger kept you busy, you were running after the people in
the allies, begging them for food, and they used to avoid you and get away from your
way, and finally you would come back and pass out infront of my room and the people
think you were crazy and step all over you."

If we apply the supposedly rigid criteria used to select those who narrated hadiths, Abu
Hurayra will be the first one to fail the test and his hadiths will be the first to be counted
among the fabrications.

spookz

01-17-03, 09:30 PM

dunno
lemme read the thread and see if i can justify my posts

:D

spookz

01-17-03, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by sycoindian

In Surah 4:129 it says 'Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire'

How can you justify marryin more than one when it also states that you will never be able to treat them fairly?

Many forget the authentic hadith (as reported in Sunan Ibn Majah) which reported that the Prophet (s.a.w.), when asked if he would permit Saidina Ali to marry another woman, said that he would not, "....unless and until Ali Ibn Abi Talib divorces my daughter, for surely she is part of me and what troubles and agitates her, troubles and agitates me too; and what harm befalls her befalls me too."

"In other Muslim countries such as Syria, Jordan, Morocco, Egypt and Iran, they have adopted the ruling that a husband who has agreed in his marriage contract not to take another wife during the marriage, is bound by that stipulation. The awareness about being able to do this is high in those countries and many couples do insert this stipulation into the marriage contract."

spookz

01-17-03, 10:04 PM

blackstone

Originally posted by heflores
Thirdly, I don't believe in Sharia, Hadith, ect. Many may call me a non muslim for that, but oh well, May god decide between us in matters that we may differ.

your reply

Originally posted by Blackstone
quite trying so hard to justify it, muslim men are allowed to marry up to 4 women + slaves regardless to whats the case they are in..if you are wealthy...you can marry 4 women, fuck them, then devorce them after a few days and no one can do a damn thing about it..it happens, its allowed.. stop lying.
--------------------------------------------------------
who cares about your version of islam? it seems that you'r having a hard time trying to purify islam from the shamful stuff in it and deny them then claim that this is islam! no my friend, you get to know a religion from its scripture, not the point of view of some of its people like you.
--------------------------------------------
no body cares about what you believe in or not or your sweet "updated" version of islam, your god said in quran : obey allah and obey the prophet" .

so since hadiths seem to be a bunch of crap, i would think hef should be commended for following a purer form of islam (what ever that might be) rather than being castigated and reviled .

spookz

01-17-03, 10:08 PM

blackstone
do you ever fantasize about gunning down a mosque full of people?
you know, disgruntled employee style?

;)

spookz

01-17-03, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
are you shia or sunni?

this is the first time i even knew what a frikking hadith was
dolt!

heflores

01-17-03, 10:18 PM

Spookz...

Who are you?? I'm stunned, completely stunned , :confused: and to think that I told you in another post to throw the mold of a muslim woman out the window because people are not molds. I better start with myself and throw my molds out, because your posts and knowledge have just humbeled me a great deal, . :confused:

spookz

01-17-03, 10:21 PM

:D

google is god!
i know shit!

heflores

01-17-03, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
about my reply, she said that she dont believe in sharia, that what i was talking about, is sharia only from hadiths..spookz?

In my view, Sharia is in much worse shape than Hadith. If we can assume that Hadith was a saying reported by someone who heard it from everyone who heard it from noone that seemed to have heard it from Prophet Muhammed, then Sharia is much weaker than Hadith, because it can not even be attributed to Prophet Muhammed or god at all.

Sharia means the Islamic law. It is a humanly study of the Quran by human to try to put it in a practical code of conduct that could be applied by a government. The qualifications of such individuals that prepare Sharia, don't really exceed ours, so I don't feel the need to justify it or follow it. I certainly was not asked anywhere in the Quran to follow Sharia or Hadith.

Here are Quranic verses about Hadith:

The Quran utilizes "the double negative" to emphasize that the prophet had NO duty EXCEPT delivering the Quran.

"You have NO duty EXCEPT DELIVERING the message." 42:48

"Your ONLY duty is delivering, we will call them to account." 13:40

"The messenger has NO function EXCEPT delivery of the message." 5:99

So if The prophet himself of the religion Islam was told so strongly to butt of the subject of teaching religion, what gives anyone, I mean anyone the right to do so.

heflores

01-17-03, 10:54 PM

You are a confused soul Blackstone.

If Shaira and Quran are one, then I only need the one book Quran to be a muslim. What the hell is Sharia??? Is it a complilation of some things out of the Quran that Bin Laden think we have to follow????

I'm stating my position very very clear to you, I can't be any clearer. I believe in a book called Koran. I speak and read fluent arabic, so I read it everyday in Arabic. I'm enclosing a translation copy of the Quran for you, it's no Sharia. Please send me a copy of the Sharia, so I may know what you are talking about.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

This argument between me and blackstone is sounding like

Blackstone is saying: Milk the bull you Bi...h
I say: I can't, it's a male, you SOB

heflores

01-17-03, 11:17 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blackstone
[B]no, you dont need another book to follow sharia, its in your quran itself, the dos and dont and your other islamic duties to obey your allah's quranic orders..not out of it...all what sharia books and studies did is organising these orders instead of them beeing spreaded around in quran.

There's a freaking good reason for the spreading the rules that god dictates....but no...we must freaking organize, and put things out of context...we can't be humans if we don't do that??? Simplify Simplify until you confuse the hell out of people with your good well intentioned simplifications.

Hey milking the bull is my quote, I have copy writes over it, you may not use it the otherway around. It can only be used my way. Come up with your own shit. I have to answer your worthless questions and come up with funny homerun shit for you too...next what???, you'll ask me to type your posts.

heflores

01-17-03, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
organising is not putting things out of contests..if you find something in a sharia law that is made up and is not from quran verses..throw it the fuck away..plain and simple.

My friend you're hovering over my point and refusing to land. Land already. It's freaking 12:30am where I'm.
Why should I read something and then throw it away if it didn't make sense, while I can read the whole book of Koran the right way and not have to thow anything out. Or better, by your standard, I should let Mr. Khomeiny or Bin Laden read it for me.

sycoindian

01-18-03, 06:08 AM

heflores...

okk.. from readin all what you have written.. would it be safe to say that most muslims are following a delusional version of islam that your Prophet never intended to happen? so that equates with human error, not the error of your Prophet of your book... so if what im proposing is true, dont u think islamic culture has disintegrated and deviated from the 'word of God'? also the system is so rigid now that no one wants to change it cuz that would reflect on human fallibility..

im raisin these points becuz i've seen how muslims behave and i dont want to generalize cuz that wouldn't be fair... but i've seen them to be quite rigid in their beliefs and they've not investigated the truth behind those beliefs.... which equates to brainwashin to some extent...

and about polygamy... i know tons of muslims who have more than one wife... its completely acceptable and considered to be part of the islamic law.... the govt even gives the couple money for the wedding and an apartment... so if you say that that is not what is written in the Quran, dont you think that what these ppl are following is pure fallacy?

heflores

01-18-03, 07:53 AM

Amen to that. Then we agree. I don't think I have anything to offer here then.

I have developed a logic to argue the case of thestic believes against atheistic believes with Chris. I'll be spending sometime there.

heflores

01-18-03, 09:36 AM

Hi sycoindian
Chris seems to not want to confront my challenges, after I got so excited thinking I proofed the theistic view, so let me elaborate here a bit on what you said when you made your Islam versus Muslim distinction.

I believe that judiasm, christianity, Islam are phases of development for the same theistic idea of believing in the creator and the hereafter. By default and to admit that they are developmental phases, one must accept the last word, the Koran as the final correct version.

The plight of all religions is the desire of people to define it to others. I think that defining a view to oneself is okay, but when one venues into trying to implement their thoughts on others, they make the fatal mistake of selfishly erasing the future unknowingly and depriving the future of their opportunity to develop theirselves just as the past did. You may ask, then how may we all exist in harmony without interacting, exchanging ideas, and keeping order. This is the liability that we all will be accountable for. Our purpose is to find the balance for us, implement our ideas to the fullest, but keep an open mind that new ideas are coming to replace ours, and hand things over to others at the right time to handle it.

Excercing religion or living one life should be similar to writing acomputer program. One must reserve hard codes for the basics, and soft codes for the heirerchy.

heflores

01-18-03, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Blackstone
i didnt say "throw it away if it doesnt make sence" , i said if you find some sharia law that is not in quran, throw it away..if you saw a sharia law that doesnt have a quran backup then deny it.

you are trying hard to deny and refuse shamefule shit in sharia by claiming that its a something and quran is something else, while they are two sides of the same coin.

I'm trying hard and refusing to accept your ideas...Why can't your thick head that used to be a muslim then became a christian get that.....????

heflores

01-18-03, 11:05 AM

Oh, I forgot you are an u derecover atheist.....

Why are you beating around the bush for???? Just say what you are already, so I may get out your mold and deal with you accordingly????

heflores

01-18-03, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by Blackstone
it sucks, i still dont believe how i actually was following this shit once..

Blackstone: Do you oftern follow things that you don't believe in, then go switching around and rationalizing your wrong position by sayiing: I still don't believe it......??

Try to answer my question, or I'll keep posting it as an answer to every future question you'll ever post on this site.

heflores

01-18-03, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Blackstone

what a pathetic hypocrite.

And, do you always try to dictate on muslims how to excersize their PERSONAL BELIEFS using the same erroronious standard that was applied to you and caused you to quit on your own beliefs.

You said that belief belong in another site that you'll open soon. I encourage you to go ahead and do that right now.....Go along.

heflores

01-18-03, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
I was a product made by my parents, brainwashed, i followed islam i wasent as rational thinking as i am now, i accepted things without thinking about it, when i started to think by my own more logically without any influence, i converted out of islam..

You bring an extremely interesting point. Raised..Brainwashed. So I get it from your explanation that your bringing up was full of brain washing techniques. I'm a firm believer that a person is a product of their environment. May I assume that, the reason you converted was because you relocated outside of the corruptive environment, and that you finally could take a free breath of air, then you started looking again.....But why are you looking...if you are an Atheist, then nothingness should satisfy you,...So you must be a Theist.....The problem is that you were looking for something that is diametrically opposite than what your parent taught you instead of looking for the truth.

heflores

01-18-03, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
*sigh*..

3-BUT you dont have the right to claim that your updated version is the actual code.

do i make myself clear here?
And you must think that you are Jesus that came back and will start telling me what is the ACTUAL CODE, and all it's meanings, you and all the Khomeinies and Bin Ladens or this world.

Once again, you have outdone yourself. You are clear as mud Blackstone......:D :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Here's my logic:
- Code is very difficult and meant for all humanities and all ages.
- To explain code in lament term, one must insert personal opinion to the equation.
- So what makes you so damn sure you exactly know what the code says, You probably don't even speak or read arabic, and what makes me the dumb idiot that will allow you to brain wash me using your interpretation of the ....??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

PS.. Your attitude is getting better though, you were very polite in your last message and made at least 2 good points. Work on number 3.

heflores

01-18-03, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
I want everyones opinion here please, from looking to both my posts and hef's posts in this thread from the begining, who was the one telling his view as the actual code, and who was the one who posted his evidences from islamic sources without posting his own opinion with it?
:rolleyes:

Are you always like that....seeking help from the outside while help is just infront of you.....:D :D :D
Don't go insane on me now, I was having fun conversing with you.;)

So my friend, you were following Ibn katheer, Al tabari, al baidawy, al galalain, who explained and eased out the quranic verses for you.

I see you needed four men so that one may boil your potatoe, the other to mash it for you, the third to chew it, and the forth to swallow it for you.

No wonder you got an indigestion from Islam.
:D :D :D

odin

01-18-03, 02:17 PM

I want everyones opinion here please, from looking to both my posts and hef's posts in this thread from the begining, who was the one telling his view as the actual code, and who was the one who posted his evidences from islamic sources without posting his own opinion with it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are right Blackstone!Please keep coming here,as this site really needs some one like you,to put the other point of view on
Islam.
All we ever seem to get are people saying its wonderful & you don't know,because you cannot read Arabic & excuses like that.
Lets face it you know the truth about this subject!

UltiTruth

01-19-03, 01:51 AM

sycoindian

01-19-03, 08:33 AM

---1- you have the right to change in the code of your religion, and make an updated "personal" version of it.. and i highly respect this.

2- you have the right to share this updated "personal" version with others.

3-BUT you dont have the right to claim that your updated version is the original actual code. ---

i agree with you blackstone... claiming your version to be the same as what is being practised is tweaking the truth..... i do believe hef has some good points to make and there is a distinct difference btw the holy book and the followed accepted version which is being practised everywhere.... and when you grow up in such a household you automatically inherit the religious views... which is just pure bullshit... even i strayed from my famililal religious beliefs becuz they didn't make any sense to me..

---Never-the-less, Hef is one of the few, who dares to accept that reform is essential and I commend that, in spite of some generalizations she makes---

yes... i agree with that too... i was surprised that hef agreed with what i had to say cuz most muslims i have talked to have given me bullshit explanations regarding various laws... i'll give you an example...

regarding polygamy... i was told by a couple of muslim guys that it is in place as when women reach menopause they are no longer sexually desirable to men... also, they cannot produce any more offsprings.. so it is unreligious for men to just have any sexual relations with such women... so they need women who haven't reached that stage in life to satisfy their sexual desires... and they cannot commit adultery so they have to marry them to have sexual relations...

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP :bugeye:

that explanation completely debases the status of women and brings them down to pure sexual objects... i argued that with them and they said, Prophet Mohammed commanded that, so we believe that... no substance in their explanation...

williamwbishop

01-19-03, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Blackstone
lol...so thats it? :rolleyes: all you need is to be justful between your harem ..oh man what a so-damn-hard term !!!

quite trying so hard to justify it, muslim men are allowed to marry up to 4 women + slaves regardless to whats the case they are in..if you are wealthy...you can marry 4 women, fuck them, then devorce them after a few days and no one can do a damn thing about it..it happens, its allowed.. stop lying.

who cares about your version of islam? it seems that you'r having a hard time trying to purify islam from the shamful stuff in it and deny them then claim that this is islam! no my friend, you get to know a religion from its scripture, not the point of view of some of its people like you.

no offence..thats the biggest load of crap i'v ever read..."Quran doesnt allow or dissallow things" and "you are free to choose" ? who do you thing you'r fooling here..guy? ever heared of sharia? islamic law? punishments by islamic law? and they are al taken from quran and hadith, dont tell me that YOU dont believe in it cause i dont give a damn.

STOP LIEING !!

its allowed under ANY condition, its just sayd that oh-so-hard condition: "you must be justful between your women" ...

As for what you call the "orphan situation", stop twisting the meanings, according to ibn-katheer, and al-tabari quran explaination: the meaning of "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans" : if the one of you was a wali' (in charge) of an orphan girl, and in charge of her mony and then wanted to marry her and feared that he woulnt pay her mahr' (money that you pay for your bride) as much as someone else who would marry her, then he shall leave her and marry another one or 2 o 3 as allah didnt tighten it on him.

link (arabic) of this explaination:
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KORTOBY&nType=1&nSora=4&nAya=3

see? its from ibn-katheer, and al tabari explaination, the most reliable sources for explaining quran verses..not the lies you spew....stop lieing and twisting meanings to make islam "look better" for fucks sake, you can marry 4 women without any restrictions according to quran and sharia.

no body cares about what you believe in or not or your sweet "updated" version of islam, your god said in quran : obey allah and obey the prophet" .

Does allah not care for the compassionate? Please think prior to posting.

williamwbishop

01-19-03, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Blackstone
what the hell are you talking about exactly??:confused:

Your response was rude and unbecoming. Are you so high that you cannot stoop to share what you know with someone without getting angry?

williamwbishop

01-19-03, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Blackstone
im not angry at all..i just dont understand what were you refereing to..care to explain your point??

Your response to the young poster who asked the question. I would assume you just had a momentary lapse, because you generally are gentle with people, and answer to satisfaction each question put to you. Apologies if I have offended.

Bruce Wayne

01-20-03, 11:11 AM

I don't feel like responding to all you posted, 'cause it was a lot

To heflores and Spookz, of the top of my head. Hadiths are narrated of the prophet by poeple who lived with him. Now being the Prophet he could have branded some of them as liars if they were indeed. And those that showed their deceiving nature i.e. lying about the prophet after his death would have been penalized By Either Abu Bakr or Omar. As a muslim I view Abu huraira as A very trustworthy source. There is a explanation for his 5000 hadiths, but I don't have enough timenow...:cool:

Now hadiths are not there to explain the Koran. They are Anecdotes recorded of the life of the Prophet (saw) and as such they show how he practised Islam... And Any one claiming or thinking of himself as a Muslim cannot deny the example of the Prophet (saw).:)

To Blackstone, my coptic ;) friend, Islam needs not be decorated for the Westrn audience. It is Splendid by itself....

:m:

heflores

01-20-03, 11:20 AM

Welcome Bruce,

Remeber slow down and don't show all your cards at once.. This is the trick to winning the debate game.

In Pidgin: I agree with you.

Bruce Wayne

01-20-03, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by heflores
Welcome Bruce,

Thx.

Remeber slow down and don't show all your cards at once.. This is the trick to winning the debate game.

:D, this is not my first dance...

In Pidgin: I agree with you.
:confused:

Bruce Wayne

01-21-03, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by sycoindian
Hi! I have a few questions about the interpretation of the Quran...

polygamy...

In the Quran it says,

'Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one,'
Surah 4:3

In Surah 4:129 it says 'Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire'

How can you justify marryin more than one when it also states that you will never be able to treat them fairly?
[quote]
It's the man's right although he's warned that he also has a big responsability.
[quote]
I haven't found any quotes from the Quran that actually describes Sharia Law and how to build a system on it. So either it has been extrapolated from the Quran by humans or i've not been thorough in my investigation...

Sharia as Islamic law is the laws as found in the koran, and in the Prophet's practice.

Why are men allowed to marry non muslim women yet a woman is condemned when she does it?

In a marriage it is more often the man who is in charge and the women is dependent on him (this is not an opinion or a dogma but reallity through history). A Muslim women should not be dependent on a non-muslim, Also her childeren will more often than not follow their father...

These come to my mind right now.. [/B]
if you have more, I 'll be happy to respond to any of your questions.

heflores

01-21-03, 07:48 AM

Bruce Wayne:

Is this an open invitation for the blackstones of the world .... I was so glad to kick his butt indefinetly....

I have some questions for you....

What is your interpretation of the following Quranic verses and where do you see a verse in the Quran that states anything about a government responsible for applying some of the laws stated in the Quran..or an indication that Abu Hurarira will be a trustworthy source....or that the Prophet actions are to be followed..... Who do you think should be applying the rules of the so called Sharia...please base your answers on Quranic versus only....

The Quran utilizes "the double negative" to emphasize that the prophet had NO duty EXCEPT delivering the Quran.

"You have NO duty EXCEPT DELIVERING the message." 42:48

"Your ONLY duty is delivering, we will call them to account." 13:40

"The messenger has NO function EXCEPT delivery of the message." 5:99

Green_World

01-21-03, 09:52 AM

If you really want to understand Islam and the wisdom of the Noble Quran, then you not only have to read the Noble Verses in the Quran, but also study the history of each verse that you might have questions about.

Let us look at Noble Verse 4:3 "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." Notice how Allah Almighty orders men to be either fair to their wives or never marry more than one wife.

Let us look at Noble Verse 4:129 "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." Here we clearly see that Allah Almighty tells men that they will never be fair to their wives.

Let us see why then Allah Almighty temporarily ordered polygamy but yet very highly discouraged it, and why I personally believe from the Noble Quran that polygamy should not be allowed today.

What was the purpose of the Noble Verse 4:3?

Noble Verse (4:3) was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in Madina after he migrated to it from Mecca and established an Islamic state there right after the battle of Uhud in which the Muslims not only had lost badly against the Pagans, but also suffered a dramatic decrease in the number of Muslim men. The Muslim men before that battle were approximately 700. They became only 400 after the battle. This loss had left so many Muslim women (1) Widows, and (2) Not able to get married if they were single.

To make matters even worse, the Muslims had faced yet another battle against the Pagans in Mecca and its neighboring tribes who wanted to attack the Muslims in Madina to finish off Islam once and for all, and by the Jews and the Christians in Madina who betrayed the Muslims in the battle of Trench after signing a defense treaty with Muhammad peace be upon him against the Pagans.

All praise due to Allah Almighty. With Allah's will and mercy, the Muslims had miraculously won the battle against the Pagans of Mecca and drove them back to where they came from, and then attacked the Jews and the Christians who betrayed the defense treaty and kicked those hypocrites out of Madina forever!

These continuous battles against the Muslims were very costly in terms of Muslim men's lives. The women had to be taken care of one way or another. For this reason, Allah Almighty had revealed the Noble Verse 4:3 to Muhammad peace be upon him to solve the social problems that the Muslims were facing. That is why at the very beginning of the Noble Verse 4:3 we see Allah Almighty setting a conditional clause for Orphans "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans...(4:3)." This Noble Verse came down for the purpose of protecting the Orphans and to increase the number of the Muslims by allowing the men to marry multiple wives (preferably from the grown Orphans at that time), up to four wives only. The purpose was absolutely not for man's sexual pleasure nor privilege, nor it was to support man's personal ego. It was revealed to solve a major social problem to prevent major sins such as illegal sex and prostitution.

Polygamy is not encouraged in the Noble Quran, nor Allah Almighty had allowed it because He liked it. He was clearly careful to highly discourage polygamy to men by telling them "but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one...(4:3)" which clearly orders men to either be fair or to not marry at all, despite the fact that we lost many men, Allah Almighty still didn't want polygamy to really take place. That's why He later told men "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire...(4:129)" which clearly nullifies the excuse that He gave them to practice polygamy. Is this a contradiction then? Absolutely not!. It clearly proves that when Allah Almighty allowed polygamy, He only allowed it because we (the Muslims) had an emergency; we lost almost half of our men if not even more. When Islam later became much stronger and Muslims defeated the infidels in the continues battles that were forced upon them (the Muslims), Allah Almighty nullified the excuse that he gave to men to practice polygamy, which would then lead to prohibiting polygamy altogether.

heflores

01-21-03, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Green_World
If you really want to understand Islam and the wisdom of the Noble Quran, then you not only have to read the Noble Verses in the Quran, but also study the history of each verse that you might have questions about.

Let us look at Noble Verse 4:3 "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." Notice how Allah Almighty orders men to be either fair to their wives or never marry more than one wife.

Let us look at Noble Verse 4:129 "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." Here we clearly see that Allah Almighty tells men that they will never be fair to their wives.

Let us see why then Allah Almighty temporarily ordered polygamy but yet very highly discouraged it, and why I personally believe from the Noble Quran that polygamy should not be allowed today.

What was the purpose of the Noble Verse 4:3?

Noble Verse (4:3) was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in Madina after he migrated to it from Mecca and established an Islamic state there right after the battle of Uhud in which the Muslims not only had lost badly against the Pagans, but also suffered a dramatic decrease in the number of Muslim men. The Muslim men before that battle were approximately 700. They became only 400 after the battle. This loss had left so many Muslim women (1) Widows, and (2) Not able to get married if they were single.

To make matters even worse, the Muslims had faced yet another battle against the Pagans in Mecca and its neighboring tribes who wanted to attack the Muslims in Madina to finish off Islam once and for all, and by the Jews and the Christians in Madina who betrayed the Muslims in the battle of Trench after signing a defense treaty with Muhammad peace be upon him against the Pagans.

All praise due to Allah Almighty. With Allah's will and mercy, the Muslims had miraculously won the battle against the Pagans of Mecca and drove them back to where they came from, and then attacked the Jews and the Christians who betrayed the defense treaty and kicked those hypocrites out of Madina forever!

These continuous battles against the Muslims were very costly in terms of Muslim men's lives. The women had to be taken care of one way or another. For this reason, Allah Almighty had revealed the Noble Verse 4:3 to Muhammad peace be upon him to solve the social problems that the Muslims were facing. That is why at the very beginning of the Noble Verse 4:3 we see Allah Almighty setting a conditional clause for Orphans "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans...(4:3)." This Noble Verse came down for the purpose of protecting the Orphans and to increase the number of the Muslims by allowing the men to marry multiple wives (preferably from the grown Orphans at that time), up to four wives only. The purpose was absolutely not for man's sexual pleasure nor privilege, nor it was to support man's personal ego. It was revealed to solve a major social problem to prevent major sins such as illegal sex and prostitution.

Polygamy is not encouraged in the Noble Quran, nor Allah Almighty had allowed it because He liked it. He was clearly careful to highly discourage polygamy to men by telling them "but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one...(4:3)" which clearly orders men to either be fair or to not marry at all, despite the fact that we lost many men, Allah Almighty still didn't want polygamy to really take place. That's why He later told men "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire...(4:129)" which clearly nullifies the excuse that He gave them to practice polygamy. Is this a contradiction then? Absolutely not!. It clearly proves that when Allah Almighty allowed polygamy, He only allowed it because we (the Muslims) had an emergency; we lost almost half of our men if not even more. When Islam later became much stronger and Muslims defeated the infidels in the continues battles that were forced upon them (the Muslims), Allah Almighty nullified the excuse that he gave to men to practice polygamy, which would then lead to prohibiting polygamy altogether.

Justifications...Justifications....Must we always justify like that.

Come back Blackstone we despretely need you...Come back whatsupyall, everyone, truthseeker, william bishop, Jaxom, live4him, ect...I need everyone.....help??
Show us the alternative prespective...I hate it when one opinion is presented with no challenge....
Vienna, Tiassa, Cris, Raithere, give us your two cents worth please...

567

01-21-03, 11:18 AM

You are right Blackstone!Please keep coming here,as this site really needs some one like you,to put the other point of view on
Islam.
All we ever seem to get are people saying its wonderful & you don't know,because you cannot read Arabic & excuses like that.
Lets face it you know the truth about this subject! [/QUOTE]

Oh boy mr odin you love to see anything against islam. If any one want to check out the history of odin, you can find he never had any possitive for islam oh also he hate palestanians. am i wrong?

sycoindian

01-21-03, 01:08 PM

if what you said is true Green... then why is polygamy practised blatantly still in muslim cultures? surely, such men vs women ratios dont exist anymore... what you personally believe is for you to keep... its commendable that you would want to investigate the history, meaning behind the laws... any sensible person would do that...

i made a distinction about muslims vs islam before... so if most muslism accept everythin cuz they are spoon fed, doesn't that negate the whole point of being religious? so if the current laws have been manipulated from the Quran, the entire muslim social culture is a farce in the name of Islam....

i still find the double standards favouring men in muslim culture appalling.... if you believe that God made all humans equal, why humans make women inferior? human fallibility... a trait no one wants to admit when it comes on a personal level...

---A Muslim women should not be dependent on a non-muslim, Also her childeren will more often than not follow their father...---

Bruce... why cant a muslim woman be dependent on a non muslim man? cuz of religious diff? if that's true, i find it to be quite a ridiculous reason... also why is that in muslim families, the children are automatically muslim? wat if they dont want to be muslim? seems like its forced... the whole deal about only marryin muslims just seems like its an exclusive club...

sycoindian

01-21-03, 01:10 PM

hef.. i thought ud agree with green...

if not, im interested to know your response to what green's said..

Markx

01-21-03, 04:59 PM

Sorry for the delay in my Reply.

First, I like to say Mr/Mrs Blackstone is not muslim to be exact never was a muslim. Or he could be Shiaat, who think that a goat ate the half of the Quran. Common belief among them. Anyway, let me get back to the real topic and explain you the issue regarding 4 wives.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course. (Quran 4:3)

Islam allows Muslim man to have upto four wives if he can do justice between them. By "doing Justice" means that man should give equal and same means of life to all his wives. That is, same type of accommodation, same food, distribute his days equally to all of them, whatever he provides to one he must provide to others too.

It �s very difficult for a man to do justice with more than one wife. That��s why Islam says to marry only one woman if you cannot do justice between your wives. Basically Islam is not allowing but restricting polygamy. Before Islam, there was no restriction on the number of wives. And even today, people (having different beliefs & religions) practicing polygamy have no such restrictions.

There are many situations that might require a man to marry more than once. Few examples include:
Check the world population.

The number of women is greater than men. So there will always be women who will never get married if every man marries one woman. So what do you think those women, who doesn't get married, will do. So what is the solution?

�� Men die in war. Just analyze the wars in the past and the number of men who died in those wars in this century. Result: millions of women get widowed. What should they do? Even just look in the past 30 years. The wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Somalia, East Timor and the list goes on & on. Hundreds of thousands of men died in these wars. So what is the solution?

After the death of man, the woman has to look after the whole family. So basically her life virtually finishes, i.e., earn money, raise children, cook food etc. No one to take care of her and her family. What to do? So what is the solution?

��i There is large number of disabled population. Some are blind, some deaf, some have physical disabilities etc. But they also want to marry a man. But majority of them does not. Why? So what is the solution?
��

If some elder woman becomes widow than doesn't she want to marry after some time? So what is the solution?

Islam is a practical and realistic religion. It is not here to fulfil the dreams or philosophy or personal opinion of some individual but it provides the practical solutions to the problems and it is the way of life for humanity. No other religion in the world provides the solution to the above problem which is just one of the problem facing the human race.

Islam provides an answer to these problems. In Islam, it is the duty of a man to take care of woman, to provide her with all the means of life. And for a Muslim man, it is a great test to take care of a woman. Because they might have to marry women twenty years elder just to support them. They might have to marry disabled women. And women with children. And they have to take care of their children. In Islam, the concept of life is doing as many good deeds as possible. Life is not about enjoying at the expense of the misery of other people but its about satisfaction and peace by being a helping hand to those in misery and pain. And all that is not easy.

You can easily see the outcome of ignoring this one very important concept of multiple wives. The prostitution rate is high. And so is the number of sexually transmitted diseases. The family system is diminishing. The status of above-mentioned people (disabled women etc) is not good at all. This factor also contributes to the increase in poverty rate. And in the spread of social evils.

Some more explanation!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Polygamy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------
Polygamy was a way of life until the Quran was revealed 1400 years

ago. When the earth was young and under-populated, polygamy was one

way of populating it and bringing in the human beings needed to carry

out God's plan. By the time the Quran was revealed, the world had been

sufficiently populated, and the Quran put down the first limitations

against polygamy.

Polygamy is permitted in the Quran, but under strictly observed

circumstances. Any abuse of this divine permission incurs severe

retribution. Thus, although polygamy is permitted by God, it behooves

us to examine our circumstances carefully before saying that a

particular polygamous relationship is permissible.

Our perfect example here is the prophet Muhammad. He was married to

one wife, Khadijah, until she died. He had all his children, except

one, from Khadijah. Thus, she and her children enjoyed the Prophet's

full attention for as long as she was married to him; twenty-five

years. For all practical purposes, Muhammad had one wife - from the

age of 25 to 50. During the remaining 13 years of his life, he married

the aged widows of his friends who left many children. The children

needed a complete home, with a fatherly figure, and the Prophet

provided that. Providing a fatherly figure for orphans is the only

specific circumstance in support of polygamy mentioned in the Quran

(4:3).

Other than marrying widowed mothers of orphans, there were three

political marriages in the Prophet's life. His close friends Abu Bakr

and Omar insisted that he marry their daughters, Aisha and Hafsah, to

establish traditional family ties among them. The third marriage was

to Maria the Egyptian; she was given to him as a political gesture of

friendship from the ruler of Egypt.

This perfect example tells us that a man must give his full attention

and loyalty in marriage to his wife and children in order to raise a

happy and wholesome family.

The Quran emphasizes the limitations against polygamy in very strong

words: "If you fear lest you may not be perfectly equitable in

treating more than one wife, then you shall be content with one."

(4:3) "You cannot be equitable in a polygamous relationship, no matter

how hard you try." (4:129)

The Quranic limitations against polygamy point out the possibility of

abusing God's law. Therefore, unless we are absolutely sure that God's

law will not be abused, we had better resist our lust and stay away

from polygamy. If the circumstances do not dictate polygamy, we had

better give our full attention to one wife and one set of children.

The children's psychological and social well-being, especially in

countries where polygamy is prohibited, almost invariably dictate

monogamy. A few basic criteria must be observed in contemplating

polygamy:

1. It must alleviate pain and suffering and not cause any pain or

suffering.

2. If you have a young family, it is almost certain that polygamy is

an abuse.

3. Polygamy to substitute a younger wife is an abuse of God's law

(4:19).

I hope it clears up some problems I noticed here.

heflores

01-21-03, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by sycoindian
hef.. i thought ud agree with green...

if not, im interested to know your response to what green's said..

hey sycoindian, I don't know all the answers...too much pressure to be expected to know something about the Quran....It's very difficult to understand, but if you want a two cents view on the status of woman, so here's my very womanly answer. :o

First, god equated between man and woman in the Quran. God didn't at all make a distinction between them to show that one is better than the other in his view, yet god seems to have shown that they have different degrees and proportions to their internal makeup or soul...if I may be blunt and presumptive in my vocublry....

First, it should be understood that god never ever has given a man a pass to be blunt or forcefull with a woman, even if the woman is as strong minded with Atheistic viewes as I do. God warns you not to try to straighten a woman, we like being crooked and god loves me crooked, or he'll kick your butt no stop...nanananananananana See relevant Quranic verse below

The Divorce
[65.6] Lodge them where you lodge according to your means, and do not injure them in order that you may straiten them;

Now don't go giving me another out of context Sura to belittle me and to try to trick god or he will trick you back...using your own trick.....again the degrees are mentioned...ooh scary stuff...I'm still dealing with Raithere on my emotional trauma with the degrees and proportion of the conscious.

The Pen
[68.44] So leave Me and him who rejects this announcement; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not:

Second : Do you feel bad sycoindian that Woman are given the pain of bearing life, suckling the young...not much strength..those stinkin monthly cycles, roller coaster emotions.....Don't feel bad my dear...it's all part of the plan in which god knows that they are different than men in internal makeup and proportion....God excused woman from many responsibilites...even praying....when emotional and having her monthly time.....So next time your wife mother or acting weird, start being nice to them. Woman are given a special waiver...men don't have any waivers..exemptions, out of jail card, ect......thank god all mighty I'm a woman...

Now don't run away yet, Because of that, men get a degree of responsibility toward god than woman...Would you say that by god giving man one degree of responsiblity over woman that god is not treating the woman right....I say...contrary, I can use less responsibilities toward god anytime of the day, for the responsibilities are often breaking my own back. See the relevant Quranic verse.

The Cow
[2.228] And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

So I have rights similar to yours against me, and you have one degree of responsbility over me.....

Thank god all mighty for being a woman...:p :o

See you later

spookz

01-21-03, 08:27 PM

i think i'll go with green world
little hef's got unresolved issues!

whaddya say syco?

:D

odin

01-21-03, 08:55 PM

I don't like any of mans religions,they are used as excuses for killing & justification for any act that man wants.
They all pray to race gods,& I am not talking as in race issues!
So thats what I think.
If you have checked my posts then you would know what I think.
You only checked them along the lines that suit you!I think we are all in school & that we are here to learn responsibilities.Only when you have learnt to be responsible your actions can you move on.

spookz

01-21-03, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by odin
I don't like any of mans religions,they are used as excuses for killing & justification for any act that man wants.
They all pray to race gods,& I am not talking as in race issues!
So thats what I think.

do you really think we need an religion as an excuse to fuck each other? how about i simply fuck you cos you smell bad? or i want the water on your land? or you are monkey people?

;)

odin

01-21-03, 09:07 PM

how about i simply fuck you cos you smell bad? or i want the water on your land? or you are monkey people?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats up to you,but you will have to carry the responsibility for it.
Even if you think you will not!

williamwbishop

01-21-03, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by heflores
Justifications...Justifications....Must we always justify like that.

Come back Blackstone we despretely need you...Come back whatsupyall, everyone, truthseeker, william bishop, Jaxom, live4him, ect...I need everyone.....help??
Show us the alternative prespective...I hate it when one opinion is presented with no challenge....
Vienna, Tiassa, Cris, Raithere, give us your two cents worth please...

Why come back? The main problem is that you said to him:
Justifications...Justifications....Must we always justify like that.

But that is exactly what you do when confronted by verses in the bible that are not to your taste. I do not understand the need for the pot to callt he kettle black...Seems kind of hypocritical to me.

Green_World

01-22-03, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by sycoindian
if what you said is true Green... then why is polygamy practised blatantly still in muslim cultures? surely, such men vs women ratios dont exist anymore... what you personally believe is for you to keep... its commendable that you would want to investigate the history, meaning behind the laws... any sensible person would do that...
===================================
Green_world answers:

Polygamy is not practiced widly in the muslim 'culture', you mentioned the word culture, this is the word I want to use.

about the men vs women ratios: this ratios STILL exist and it's getting worse specially in the western world, more and more girls are born.

Changes in human sex ratio

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewScience/reproduction/sexratio/sexratio.htm

==============================

i made a distinction about muslims vs islam before... so if most muslism accept everythin cuz they are spoon fed, doesn't that negate the whole point of being religious? so if the current laws have been manipulated from the Quran, the entire muslim social culture is a farce in the name of Islam....
==================================
Green_world answers:

You have here to distinguish between Islam as religion and the practices of some muslim societies. culture sometimes override religion specially in India and Pakistan.

The laws of the holy quran does not change to suit everyone, those laws dont change because they are the source of change.
=====================================

i still find the double standards favouring men in muslim culture appalling.... if you believe that God made all humans equal, why humans make women inferior? human fallibility... a trait no one wants to admit when it comes on a personal level...

======================================

Green_world answers:

I dont accept that at all, while I agree that in some muslim 'cultures' men have the upper hand, but in other Muslim countries where true islam is practiced women have the SAMEA rights as men.

Now, I have a question for you: name me one AMERICAN PRESIDENT WHO HAPPENED TO BE WOMAN ??????????????

In islam we have many women who became prime ministers and presidents, in fact, the president of the largest muslim country of the world is WOMAN: president megawati of Indonesia.
==================================

Bruce... why cant a muslim woman be dependent on a non muslim man? cuz of religious diff? if that's true, i find it to be quite a ridiculous reason... also why is that in muslim families, the children are automatically muslim? wat if they dont want to be muslim? seems like its forced... the whole deal about only marryin muslims just seems like its an exclusive club...

=================================
green_world answers:

Because Non-muslim man DOES NOT recognize Islam, Islam recognize ALL the religions before it.

In the Muslim families childern will be Muslims because at early stage of their lives, they CAN'T distinguish what's right and what's wrong for them, once they are 18 they can choose to change if they wish to.

jusmeig

01-22-03, 05:39 AM

Hi,

I am more concerned that both Islam and Christianity teach understanding and tolerace for your fellow man, Yet this petty bicking, and vain attempts to prove each others view points incorrect, based on 2000 year old evidence, is shunning the very ideals your religions are based on. It is not the goal of one religion to prove another incorrect. It is the goal of every man to fins his own truths and faith.

J

Green_World

01-22-03, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by jusmeig
Hi,

I am more concerned that both Islam and Christianity teach understanding and tolerace for your fellow man, Yet this petty bicking, and vain attempts to prove each others view points incorrect, based on 2000 year old evidence, is shunning the very ideals your religions are based on. It is not the goal of one religion to prove another incorrect. It is the goal of every man to fins his own truths and faith.

J

I agree with you totally but when you have some FANATIC christians who want to demonize the great religion of Islam then someone must step in and show the world how ABSURD their bible is and how PATHETIC their faith is.

This is my job, if they respect Islam, they will be respected, if they dont, then they will have very hard time refuting and defending all the wicked stuff in their faith.

sycoindian

01-22-03, 03:47 PM

---Polygamy is not practiced widly in the muslim 'culture', you mentioned the word culture, this is the word I want to use. ----

oohh yes it is... i currently live in a middle eastern country and i have a whole buncha local friends who attest to that too... i've seen it to be a quite common occurence... my sponsor himself has 4 wives and a gazillion kids... i know i was generalizin to an extent, but i can't help it in this discussion...

---about the men vs women ratios: this ratios STILL exist and it's getting worse specially in the western world, more and more girls are born. ---

i still find that quite baseless... what if suddenly in a decade, the ratio was overturned? what then? will you accept women havin more than one husband? ratios dont have anythin to do with this.. i find this so that women are perpetually kept subservient to men...

---culture sometimes override religion specially in India and Pakistan. ---

so cultural applications might vary... but does the word of Quran hold more importance than cultural influences?

---but in other Muslim countries where true islam is practiced women have the SAMEA rights as men.---

oohh yeahh? give me one example of that... and im not talkin of political recognition... benazir bhutto was also PM of pakistan... and you gave an example of indonesia.. im talkin about social implications... women are restricted in every manner and form... i was last week at the beach and i saw one arab family chillin out there.. the father and son in shorts and tshirt and the wife and daughter fully dressed in black from top to bottom... now what kinda justice is that?

---Now, I have a question for you: name me one AMERICAN PRESIDENT WHO HAPPENED TO BE WOMAN ?????????????? ---

i dont give a damm about the american political system myself...

---Because Non-muslim man DOES NOT recognize Islam, Islam recognize ALL the religions before it. ---

how can you say that.. someone might just not be a follower of Islam... that's a nice way to say that we're better than you so sod off... aint gonna marry you cuz u aint followin my Book...

---In the Muslim families childern will be Muslims because at early stage of their lives, they CAN'T distinguish what's right and what's wrong for them, once they are 18 they can choose to change if they wish to.----

i have to see that yet... it sounds like a nice idea... what about social taboos?

---I agree with you totally but when you have some FANATIC christians who want to demonize the great religion of Islam ---

i donno if that was targetted to me, but dont make assumptions... im not christian... im askin some legitimate questions... if you dont like it, ur free not to post...

sycoindian

01-22-03, 03:55 PM

hef... i dont pity women cuz of all the stuff you mentioned.. child bearing, raisin em etc etc... its a bounty given especially to women... im referrin to how women are treated in arab countries... and about the whole deal of men bein give a degree of responsibility compared to women... i see that from a social perspective... not that men are better than women...

i just wish men would give their women some freedom and some air to breathe...

sycoindian

01-22-03, 04:06 PM

i started this thread to understand some of the social practices of islamic ppl... i dont want this to be a right vs wrong argument... and im not here to bash islam or any other religion for any matter... so id really appreciate if we have a healthy discussion instead of trynna get the upper hand... im trynna have a rational understanding of the Quranic laws and the current interpretation of em... thanks..

p.s. Markx... i just re read ur post... got a clear idea of the polygamy laws... so is it left upto the individual to decide if he should marry more than one wife? and if his judgement is erroneous, he is punishable by God only... right?? also, do women have a say if they're marryin someone who already has a wife/wives? i wanna know if women have any control over such a situation...

also, what you said is theoretically very practical.. but is it being practised that way?

spookz

01-22-03, 04:55 PM

It is often claimed that Islam is not only a religion but a culture and a civilization. 'The Islamic world' and 'Islamic history' are commonly used terms, both in popular public discourse and in academic writing, suggesting some kind of coherent unity. At the same time, writers point to the diversity of Muslim countries from Morocco to Indonesia, from Nigeria to Turkey. Is there a unity behind the diversity, at least in the 'heartlands' of Islam in the Middle East and North Africa, as Ernest Gellner and others have claimed?

Now, more than ever, with Islamic voices contesting politics, culture and society in practically every country with a Muslim population, Islam would appear to have a unity and a common purpose across political and cultural frontiers: to provide a common identity for Muslims who wish to live in a society of their faith and be ruled by their sacred law. This picture can only confirm in the public mind the idea of Islam as a common essence of all these societies, one that rules and determines their culture and their social and political processes.

The views asserting the uniqueness, unity and exceptionalism of Muslim society and history are all the more potent in the current intellectual climate which has seen the demise of universalist theories of historical causation and social analysis such as Marxism. The idea of cultural and civilizational essences and identities underlying unique histories of particular civilizations have been most prominently stated in Samuel Huntington's 'clash of civilizations' thesis. Even though this has been widely criticized, the assumptions behind it are equally widely held, not least by many Muslim and Arab intellectuals.

Muslim exceptionalism and uniqueness and the centrality of religion to Muslim society and history are, of course, the pillars of Islamist political advocacy. Many 'secular' intellectuals, specially in Egypt, while challenging Islamist illiberal interpretations, would, nevertheless, wish to base their own advocacies on 'authentic' Muslim and Arab 'culture'. Many advocates of Human Rights, for instance, insist on deriving these rights from liberal (and strained) interpretations of the Qu'ran and the traditions. I have encountered strong hostility to my argument that the modern discourses of Human Rights are products of recent political struggles and ideologies, many of them against the establishments of state, church and dominant classes, and which have no ancestry in the much older ethical and legal discourses of any religion.

What is unique about Islam? I argue, alongside many colleagues, against this cultural essentialization of an exceptional 'Islamic world', contrasted implicitly or explicitly with an equally exceptional and totalized 'West'. Of course, every history is unique. The conceptual tools of social and historical analyses are however common, and are used to analyse diverse unique histories. The question also arises of what is the object whose unique history is being told? Does 'Islamic society' constitute a unitary entity with a common and consistent history extending to the present and underlying the current 'Islamic phenomenon'? Many eminent writers such as the hisorian HAR Gibb and the anthropologist and philosopher Ernest Gellner, have advanced arguments to that effect. These arguments are the products of deep scholarship and often thorough familiarity with the histories and cultures of the region. The question however is conceptual: the essentialism rests on a totalization of histories and societies as 'Islamic'. This label cannot be denied: yet, what commonality does it entail? It can be argued for instance, that the modern history (from the eighteenth century) of Iran shows a totally different political and social structure to that of Turkey or Egypt, let alone Arabia. It can be plausibly argued that the Christian and Muslim shores of the Mediterranean shared many common features of popular culture: Tunisian coastal cities had more in common with Sicily and the Italian south than with Arabia or Iraq. The manifest reality, for instance, of women in southern Europe covering their heads in a similar manner to their Mediterranean Muslim counterparts seems to have escaped the notice of observers intent on totalized contrasts! Indeed, we can date the divergence from previous common elements between the two shores of the Mediterranean to the second half of the twentieth century as many Muslim Mediterranean cities, such as Alexandria or Algiers, became 'peasantized' by the great rural influx, and European Mediterranean cities increasingly integrated into a national culture dominated by the North, a process accelerated by the regional policies of the European Community.

I still have to deal with the question of what it is that lends credence to the essentialist arguments: what is the common denominator which makes diverse societies Muslim beyond the obvious fact of religion? Perhaps a good way of answering this question is by drawing parallels with European Christianity. The Christian world shares a universe of discourse referring to sets of institutions, doctrines and personnel: the church, the priesthood, the Holy Trinity, the Bible, the problems of salvation and grace. These are not restricted to the religious sphere but have involved many spheres of culture, law, morality and family. Divorce, homosexuality and abortion, for instance, continue to be issues in the politics of several Western countries. A good historian of Europe will tell you however, that these entities of Church, scriptures, law and so on, have taken vastly different forms and social significance at various points in European history and in different regions. The Medieval Catholic Church, for instance, was a very different institution from the eighteenth century Church and with very different role in society and politics.

Similarly, we find in Islam a common set of vocabularies referring to institutions, doctrines and personnel: the Qu'ran and Hadith (traditions of the Prophet), the ulama, the Shari'a (religious law) and many others. These have similarly varying structures, forms of organization and social significance over the centuries and in different societies. Ernest Gellner in his characterization of a constant pattern of Muslim history and society, attributes a central role to the ulama and the Shari'a. His model, however, crumbles before the many different forms of ulama organization, power, and institutions, not only in different societies and histories but even within the class structure of the same society. The elite ulama of late Ottoman times, for instance, were integrated into the ruling institutions and bureaucracies, while their Iranian counterparts of the same time constituted parts of local, decentralized power elites with their own revenues and institutions separate from the govenment. Both were distinct from the ulama 'proletariat' of their own time, the multitude of students, preachers, dervishes and mendicants, performing services for the poor. Similarly, Sufism and sufi brotherhoods, regular features of practically all Muslim societies display a great variety of manifestation and of relations to the mainstream religious institutions, from elite intellectual mystics counting the higher ulama in their ranks, to illiterate rural charismatic saints ruling peasant communities with magic, medicine and ceremony.

And how do we understand these social formations and their historical and geographical variations and transformations, the logic of their coherence and contradiction? Well, by the same repertoire of social and historical concepts and analyses which we use for Western or any other societies. It is by these means that we grasp the uniqueness of each manifestation, not of a totalized history with an Islamic essence.

Finally, does the current 'Islamic resurgence' vindicate the essentialist position that Islam remains the essence of Muslim society, which is peculiarly resistant to secularization and to separating religion from politics? I am more convinced by the opposite argument: that current political Islam is partly a reaction and a defence against the secularizing processes that have inevitably come with modernity and which continue to have their effect on all societies in the region. Law, even where elements of religion have remained within it, has become codified state law, subject to political and social exigencies; education has been largely removed from religious spheres and authorities (that is why these authorities are trying, in vain, to hang on); religious authorities cannot, try as they may, control the manifold channels of information and entertainment of the modern media; modern economic exigencies have forced women into the labour market and the public spheres, subverting patriarchal authority and traditional values (associated with religion). Only in a society so thoroughly destroyed by successive wars such as Afghanistan can the religious reactionaries succeed in reversing these inexorable processes. Saudi Arabia where petrolic wealth has partly exempted the authorities from the exigencies of modern socio-economic processes has also partly succeeded in arresting these trends, but for how long? In Iran, the 'mullocracy' of the Islamic Republic has had to retreat repeatedly (but discreetly) in the face of these contingencies. Family planning, for instance, initially denounced by Khomeini as contrary to Islam and an imperialist measure against Muslims, was restored after a few years as government policy. Family law, after initial reversals, has now restored most of the Shah's reforms and more. Regarding working women, the level of employment in the work force was mostly maintained, and there is increasing participation of women in public life, politics, the arts, sport and even as junior judges. Crucially, Khomeini, faced with the exigencies of governance, ruled in 1988 that in the interests of the whole Islamic umma, the Islamic government is empowered to suspend any provision of the Shari'a, including prayer and fasting! Since then the category of 'interest' (maslaha) has been written into the constitution and institutionalized, opening the gates wide for pragmatic legislation and policy. I rest my case.

Dr Sami Zubaida is lecturer at Birkbeck College, University of London

Muslim Societies: Unity or Diversity? (http://www.isim.nl/newsletter/1/general/01AA01.html)

"The use of 'Muslim Laws' reflects two equally important issues. First, laws formally considered Muslim vary, sometimes radically, from one cultural context to another.

Second, a plurality of legal codes co-exist in each cultural, social and political context. At the very least, each society has a formal, codified legal system and a parallel system in which customary laws and practices combine. Further sub-divisions can also occur - for example, some countries may have two formal codes, religious and civil. Similarly, customary laws are diverse."

heflores

01-22-03, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by sycoindian
hef... i dont pity women cuz of all the stuff you mentioned.. child bearing, raisin em etc etc... its a bounty given especially to women... im referrin to how women are treated in arab countries... and about the whole deal of men bein give a degree of responsibility compared to women... i see that from a social perspective... not that men are better than women...

i just wish men would give their women some freedom and some air to breathe...

You are so kind sycoindian, seriously...in a milk the cow kindda way....in a very islamic kindda way....but as you see Spookz already got the point about the men having more responsbility and already posted a very very interesting educational post that talks about all these things that you mentioned..

Later sycoindian

heflores

01-22-03, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
I assure you that i will be justful between my harem..now, get me my 4 wives please. :)

Blackstone, ever had 4 wives before? Do you think they all live in the same house? Do they all have separate bedrooms and stuff? How does a man decide who's wife turn it is that night? Do they really take turns? I was just wondering...

heflores

01-22-03, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
no i didnt have the honor to marry 4 wives before, i dont even believe in mirrage and i dont need it... but as far as i know, they are usually put in seperate rooms, and sometimes in seperate houses...depends on the wealth of the master, i mean husband..but why you ask?

as for knowing whose turn is, they do take turnes...each one have her night...unless he married a seconed one a temp secret marrage without telling his first wife and spending half the day with her and lie to his first one...you know these stories..

btw..check your pm

well, blackstone, you are describing to me a very weird situation..of course you should be bothered by it, so now we know how YOU feel. I think I also know how you feel about a muslim man who excersing polygamy...Now, i want your opinion about a woman who has allowed a man to marry with her permission 3 other women? I mean under her nose, she has allowed it....What do you think about a woman like that?

I would like to make three buckets here to store the data...One for Islam...one for the man responsbility...one for the women responsbility....If you can kindly help me figure out this puzzle.

sycoindian

01-23-03, 04:31 AM

blackstone.. i agree with what you are saying... at least you are backin up what im thinkin with more evidence... :D

i need a better reason to believe that polygamy is okk to practise other than the ratio explanation cuz it just sounds kinda silly... and as i said and blackstone said, what if the ratios were overturned in the favour of women... what then?

there is a blatant disparity between theory and practise as pointed out by blackstone... and i have witnessed it too....

p.s. good post spookz...

heflores

01-23-03, 07:59 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blackstone
[B]he doesnt need her permission to marry on her, but he will need her permission weather she will want to be one of them or not.[B]

Since you can not give any proof from the Quran that god is the responsbile entity for human behaviour, and that the man or woman are excercing pure free will and abilities that they're responsible for their actions, then you have strayed as far from the topic of studying Islam and have placed us in a another topic that I'm not a bit interested in discussing which is human behavior....why does man or woman do what they do?

Religion is not a justification you people for anything...please get it through your head...people justify things...religion doesn't justify anything....

Man Woman make a CHOICE....CHOICE is by free-will....unless they're crazy and hearing voices...

I don't give a shit about reality...If I do...I'll go insane thinking about Iraq, Palestine, native Americans, extinct dinasours, ect......I only give a shit about myself..That's the object of salvations my friends....Don't stray from the goal...Focus

Remember...Judging is only for god...unless you're hearing voices that you're gonna be part of the panel of trustees.

Green_World

01-23-03, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by sycoindian
---Polygamy is not practiced widly in the muslim 'culture', you mentioned the word culture, this is the word I want to use. ----

oohh yes it is... i currently live in a middle eastern country and i have a whole buncha local friends who attest to that too... i've seen it to be a quite common occurence... my sponsor himself has 4 wives and a gazillion kids... i know i was generalizin to an extent, but i can't help it in this discussion...
==========================================
Green_world Answers:

It was SHEER generalization, I am from the Middle East myself, I have NEVER KNOWN someone in all my life who is married with even 2 !!!! I AM FROM SYRIA.
===================================
---about the men vs women ratios: this ratios STILL exist and it's getting worse specially in the western world, more and more girls are born. ---

i still find that quite baseless... what if suddenly in a decade, the ratio was overturned? what then? will you accept women havin more than one husband? ratios dont have anythin to do with this.. i find this so that women are perpetually kept subservient to men...
===================================
G W:

I provided a link, what did you provide ? rants.

The problem with women marrying more than one is the emotional difficulties in establishing WHO is the father, something very common in the ADULTUROUS world of the west.
===================================

---culture sometimes override religion specially in India and Pakistan. ---

so cultural applications might vary... but does the word of Quran hold more importance than cultural influences?
=======================================
G W:
In some Ignorant muslim societies, YES it does.

==============================

---but in other Muslim countries where true islam is practiced women have the SAMEA rights as men.---

oohh yeahh? give me one example of that... and im not talkin of political recognition... benazir bhutto was also PM of pakistan... and you gave an example of indonesia.. im talkin about social implications... women are restricted in every manner and form... i was last week at the beach and i saw one arab family chillin out there.. the father and son in shorts and tshirt and the wife and daughter fully dressed in black from top to bottom... now what kinda justice is that?
=================================

GW:

I will give more than 1 example; SYRIA: we have 3 woman ministers in our government, women constitues 32% of our work force.

Turkey: women in turkey enjoys western-style freedom.

Indonesia: the largest muslim country in the world where they have WOMAN as their president.

=========================================

---Now, I have a question for you: name me one AMERICAN PRESIDENT WHO HAPPENED TO BE WOMAN ?????????????? ---

i dont give a damm about the american political system myself...
================================
G W:

It is VERY embarrassing question for you, so admit it.

==================================

-Because Non-muslim man DOES NOT recognize Islam, Islam recognize ALL the religions before it. ---

how can you say that.. someone might just not be a follower of Islam... that's a nice way to say that we're better than you so sod off... aint gonna marry you cuz u aint followin my Book...
======================================
G W:
I did not say that, what I said is that ISLAM recognize and RESPECT and GLORIFY the religions before it, but other religions does not even recognize Islam, so why on earth our PURE women should marry men from other unrespectful faiths ??
=======================================

---In the Muslim families childern will be Muslims because at early stage of their lives, they CAN'T distinguish what's right and what's wrong for them, once they are 18 they can choose to change if they wish to.----

i have to see that yet... it sounds like a nice idea... what about social taboos?
================================
G W:

What do you mean social taboos ?? if you mean your western traits of adultry, alcohol and drugs, then NO. peroid.
=====================================
---I agree with you totally but when you have some FANATIC christians who want to demonize the great religion of Islam ---

i donno if that was targetted to me, but dont make assumptions... im not christian... im askin some legitimate questions... if you dont like it, ur free not to post...
==================================
G W:

Thank you for clarifying your position, I am more than happy to reply.

Where are you from ? are you indian ?

Green_World

01-23-03, 08:27 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blackstone
[B]I want everyones opinion here please, from looking to both my posts and hef's posts in this thread from the begining, who was the one telling his view as the actual code, and who was the one who posted his evidences from islamic sources without posting his own opinion with it?
:rolleyes:

you need help.

1- I read, write arabic fluently..
=====================================

I am here to CHALLENGE you and refute your LIES about Islam one by one.

You said you speak arabic fluently, ok:

IZA KONTA TATAKALM ALARABIA BETALAKA IZAN ARIDKA AN TOGAWEB ALA HAZA ALSOU'AL: MEN AYANA ANTA WA MA HEYIA GENSIATOKA WA MAHOW BALADOKA ????

If you really speak and read arabic fluently, then answer the above question just to make sure and then we can go together in front of everyone here REFUTING your lies about Islam.

Green_World

01-23-03, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by williamwbishop
Does allah not care for the compassionate? Please think prior to posting.

Women's breasts are important sexual objects:

The Bible in numerous places teaches us about women's breasts and talks about them at the same time it is talking about sexual fantasies and intercourse.

Comparing the sister's breasts to the size of the towers: Let us look at the following verses: "We have a young sister, and her breasts are not yet grown. What shall we do for our sister for the day she is spoken for? (Song of Songs 8:8)" and later about the sister....."I am a wall, and my breasts are like towers. Thus I have become in his eyes like one bringing contentment. (Song of Songs 8:10)"

Let us look at Song of Songs 4:5 "Your two breasts are like two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies."

Let us look at Proverbs 5:19 "A loving doe, a graceful deer, may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love." Could it be meant to say "may her breasts sexually satisfy you"?

Let us look at Song of Songs 1:13 "My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts."

Praising the bed that they had sex on: Let us look at Song of Songs 1:16 "How handsome you are, my lover! Oh, how charming! And our bed is verdant"

Having sex all night long: Let us look at Proverbs 7:18 "Come, let's drink deep of love till morning; let's enjoy ourselves with love!"

Let us look at Song of Songs 1:2-4 "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth-- for your love is more delightful than wine. Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the maidens love you! Take me away with you--let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his chambers. We rejoice and delight in you; we will praise your love more than wine. How right they are to adore you! " I don't think this would be appropriate for a kid under 18 to read. Also, I don't think it is appropriate to have such open sexuality in a divine book anyway.

His right arm sexually feeling her body: Let us look at Song of Songs 2:6 "His left arm is under my head, and his right arm embraces me."

Let us look at Song of Songs 3:4 "Scarcely had I passed them when I found the one my heart loves. I held him and would not let him go till I had brought him to my mother's house, to the room of the one who conceived me." So in other words, she was not married to him, and when she found him, she took him back to her bed room to have illegal sex with him? If she were married to him, she wouldn't take him to her "mother's house". She would take him to their house.

Let us look at Song of Songs 3:10 "Its posts he made of silver, its base of gold. Its seat was upholstered with purple, its interior lovingly inlaid by the daughters of Jerusalem." Why does the Bible teach young men to spend all of their time and effort to try to impress all of the girls in their town so they can possibly end in bed with them?

Fantasizing about a girl he calls his "sister". Her vagina tastes like wine for him. And they had sex all night long. After he satisfied her really good, she wished if he were her brother (her biological brother nursed by her "mother's breast" as she said) so she doesn't have to take him home secretly:

Note: Even though she may not be his biological sister, but calling her a "sister" in a pornographic and sick situation as shown in details below is not proper, and may suggest that the sick pervert would fantasize about his biological sister if he had one, especially after knowing that Sarah (Isaac's mother) was Abraham's biological sister in the Bible.

Let us look at Song of Songs 4:9 "You have stolen my heart, my sister, my bride; you have stolen my heart with one glance of your eyes, with one jewel of your necklace." Fantasizing about his sister? at least he shows in this verse that he would!.

Let us look at Song of Songs 4:10 "How delightful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much more pleasing is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your perfume than any spice!" Making love to his own sister? "pleasing is your love (making???) than wine"?

Let us look at Song of Songs 4:12 "You are a garden locked up, my sister, my bride; you are a spring enclosed, a sealed fountain."

Sleeping with his sister: Let us look at Song of Songs 5:4 "I slept but my heart was awake. Listen! My lover is knocking: 'Open to me, my sister, my darling, my dove, my flawless one. My head is drenched with dew, my hair with the dampness of the night.' I have taken off my robe [showed off his groin in other words] must I put it on again? I have washed my feet, must I soil them again? My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening; my heart began to pound for him." What a disgusting way for someone to talk so pervertly about his sister like that!!.

Let us look at Song of Songs 5:8 "O daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you-- if you find my lover, what will you tell him? Tell him I am faint with love." Teaching women to be sexually too open.

Her vagina tastes like wine: "How beautiful your sandaled feet, O prince's daughter! Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands. Your navel is a rounded goblet that never lacks blended wine. Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies. Your breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle. Your neck is like an ivory tower. Your eyes are the pools of Heshbon by the gate of Bath Rabbi.
.......
I said 'I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.' May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine. (The NIV Bible, Song of Songs 7:1-4, 8-9)"

According to the movie "Sex in the Bible" on A&E TV Station, the Hebrew translation to "Your naval" is referring to the woman's VAGINA. The English translators substituted the word "NAVEL" WITH "VAGINA." Please rent a copy of the movie and watch it. This was sent to me by my dear brother in Islam Mike who embraced Islam just recently; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

Further proofs from Jim; a non-Muslim guy who tried to prove that I was not accurate about the translation of the word "Naval" in this Porn-full verse. He sent the following to the Christian "Answering Islam" team:

"Mr. Abdallah seems to have done little homework in this matter, since his whole analysis seems to stem from someone named Mike. Here is actually what this video says:

The word navel and the umbilical cord both come from the woman's vagina since this is a natural part of childbirth."

So Mr. Jim, what exactly did you disprove here? Whether "Naval" accurately means "vagina" or something inside the vagina it wouldn't make much difference. You just further proved how porn-full and disgusting the bible really is.

Please answer this question for me:

Why should vaginas and illegal sex done by unmarried lovers be talked about in a sexual fantasy in the book that is supposed to be the True Living Words of GOD Almighty from the first place?

sycoindian

01-23-03, 09:07 AM

---I provided a link, what did you provide ? rants.---

your link didn't substantiate your argument at all... all it did was prove that there are more boys born than girls... what if that ratio was overturned? what then? would the laws of Quran still be applicable... and plz refrain from makin such ridiculously stupid statements and retort with logical arguments...

---In some Ignorant muslim societies, YES it does.----

so you do agree that there are ignorant muslim societies... and you claim that you are better than them?

---The problem with women marrying more than one is the emotional difficulties in establishing WHO is the father, something very common in the ADULTUROUS world of the west. ---

have you ever heard of DNA testing? women could easily find out who the father was.... and have u ever lived in the west? if not, quit makin assumptions about the sexual lifestyle of ppl there...

also i mentioned in my last post.. im not interested in who is the president and what not... im talkin from a social perspective... a woman might be a president, that doesn't necessarily reflect on the social status of women in the country except from a political stand point...

---It is VERY embarrassing question for you, so admit it.---

how is it embarassin for me? as i said, i dont give a damm about the american political system...

---I did not say that, what I said is that ISLAM recognize and RESPECT and GLORIFY the religions before it, but other religions does not even recognize Islam, so why on earth our PURE women should marry men from other unrespectful faiths ??---

that's not true.. muslims dont recognize the Bahai' Faith as a religion.. what does purity have to do anything with religious beliefs? just cuz someone doesn't recognize islam doesnt mean they're not PURE... what kinda logic is that?

---What do you mean social taboos ?? ----

---ever heared of the rudda (converting out of islam ) punishment ? getting killed if im not mistaken? do you know what will happen to you if you dared to criticize islamic shit in an islamic country?---- (posted by blackstone)

---Where are you from ? are you indian ?---

im from antarctica... what the hell difference does it make??

also from your last post... can you not bring the bible in this discussion... we are not trynna have the bible vs quran here...
Prophet Mohammed recognized Christ and his teachings, so if you can't stand that quote that u mentioned about sexuality, then you are goin against your Prophet's words... right?? if everything you believe He said is true, then why question the bible?? it has to be true cuz He said its true... wat u say?

Green_World

01-23-03, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Blackstone
I assure you that i will be justful between my harem..now, get me my 4 wives please. :)
thats what happen, polygamy is allowed, polygamy happens everyday..get over it...
================================

Polygamy is allowed in Islam NO on deny that, but it does NOT happen everyday for very simple reason: MOST OF THE MULIMS ARE POOR FINACIALY, THEY CANT AFFORD TO MARRY FOUR...SO STOP PROMOTING YOUR LIE.......

==================================

now we'll go into the famouse excuse that marx posted : this verse is the solution when women are more than men....If you argue for the necessity of polygamy due to imbalance of the sexes (however this might have come about), are you willing to allow several husbands for a woman in those societies or circumstances where the balance is tilted the other way? If not, then this shows that "ratios" never was the true reason.
======================================

The number of men will NEVER exceed the number of women, I provided a link in earlier post regarding this balance, and here again I am provising MORE links:

China thrown off balance as boys outnumber girls:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/06/19/china-usat.htm

WHERE HAVE ALL THE BOYS GONE?

http://www.chem.unep.ch/pops/POPs_Inc/press_releases/sciamer1.htm

============================

thanks for the annoucment, sadly though i was a sunni muslim, im quite entertained how you said it as a fact: "I like to say Mr/Mrs Blackstone is not muslim to be exact never was a muslim"

do you know me? do i know you? it gets me how muslims are having a hard time accepting the fact that there are people who convert out of islam....heh..anyway.
==================================

You are a LIAR, it is an old christian messionary TRICK.

Anyway, even if you were convert out of Islam, the number of convert INTO islam is FAR more than the ones who are 'allegdly' leaving.

I am here to REFUTE your lies ONE by ONE and in front of every one here, so be prepared MR.MESSIONARY !
===========================

maybe when you guys learn to leave us (kafirs, non muslims in general) the fuck alone we will have some respect for you.
===============================

G W : you need to leave us alone, if you dont like Islam, then why the FUCK you are here in this thread, get the hell out of here and go play somewhere else.

==============================

ever heared of the rudda (converting out of islam ) punishment ? getting killed if im not mistaken? do you know what will happen to you if you dared to criticize islamic shit in an islamic country?

*sigh*...the islamic hypocricy. [/B]
=====================================

G W: let us read again what you wrote: getting killed if im not mistaken ?? is that the answer of someone who claim to be sunni muslim and knows Islam well ???

FILTHY LIAR.

Green_World

01-23-03, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by sycoindian
---I provided a link, what did you provide ? rants.---

your link didn't substantiate your argument at all... all it did was prove that there are more boys born than girls... what if that ratio was overturned? what then? would the laws of Quran still be applicable... and plz refrain from makin such ridiculously stupid statements and retort with logical arguments...
=======================================
G W:

You DID not provide any links to support your lies, if you want to be more credible then provide some links.

====================================

---In some Ignorant muslim societies, YES it does.----

so you do agree that there are ignorant muslim societies... and you claim that you are better than them?
===================================

Yes I agree that there are ignorant Muslim societies as there are ignorant christian societies and terrorist jewish society called Israel.

I dont claim I am better than them, I am just more fortunate to be highly educated with master degree from England.

My travels in the west enables me to have excellent pictures about the western societies which help me so much in refuting their misconceptions about the great religion of Islam.

===================================

---The problem with women marrying more than one is the emotional difficulties in establishing WHO is the father, something very common in the ADULTUROUS world of the west. ---

have you ever heard of DNA testing? women could easily find out who the father was.... and have u ever lived in the west? if not, quit makin assumptions about the sexual lifestyle of ppl there...
======================================
I used the word EMOTIONAL, I know about the DNA, but how this poor ADULTEROUS woman will feel about that?

Is that the freedom you gave to your women in the west ? to not be able to find who's the father of her baby ?? do you call this freedom ??????????????????????? :confused:

Yes, I lived in the west for many long years, I know your societies VERY well.

=============================

also i mentioned in my last post.. im not interested in who is the president and what not... im talkin from a social perspective... a woman might be a president, that doesn't necessarily reflect on the social status of women in the country except from a political stand point...
==============================
G W: How absurd can you be ? are you saying that it is possible to have MUSLIM woman as president and yet have the society oppressing the woman !! what kind of logic is that ???

Social and political perspective are connected, if Muslim women have no rights in pakistan as you would like to claim, then you will not have MUSLIM woman as prime minister.

If the muslim women are oppressed in Indonesia, then you will not have the HEAD OF THE LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY IN THE WORLD to be woman.

It is very hard for you guys to accept defeat.
======================================

-It is VERY embarrassing question for you, so admit it.---

how is it embarassin for me? as i said, i dont give a damm about the american political system...
==================================

G W:

It is not the American political system, it is the political as well as social....shall I provide you with links about DOMESTIC VIOLENCE against women in the USA( THE CASTLE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOM ) !!!!

In the U.K where I used to live, every 4 days one WESTERN woman dies as a result of domestic violence.

In Russia, every 4 minute a woman dies as a result of domestic violence:

Russian Federation: Women and girls victims of human rights abuses (selected case studies)

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/EUR460052002?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\RUSSIAN+FEDERATION

And the list goes on and on....so stop being HYPOCRITE.
===================================
---I did not say that, what I said is that ISLAM recognize and RESPECT and GLORIFY the religions before it, but other religions does not even recognize Islam, so why on earth our PURE women should marry men from other unrespectful faiths ??---

that's not true.. muslims dont recognize the Bahai' Faith as a religion.. what does purity have to do anything with religious beliefs? just cuz someone doesn't recognize islam doesnt mean they're not PURE... what kinda logic is that?
========================================
G W :

Why you are twisting my words, I used the word PURE to refer to muslim women not to other non-muslims.

The Bahai' is not faith, it is corrupted version of Islam.

I am talking about the big ABRAHAMIC faiths: christianity and judaism.
===================================

---What do you mean social taboos ?? ----

---ever heared of the rudda (converting out of islam ) punishment ? getting killed if im not mistaken? do you know what will happen to you if you dared to criticize islamic shit in an islamic country?---- (posted by blackstone)

---Where are you from ? are you indian ?---

im from antarctica... what the hell difference does it make??

also from your last post... can you not bring the bible in this discussion... we are not trynna have the bible vs quran here...
Prophet Mohammed recognized Christ and his teachings, so if you can't stand that quote that u mentioned about sexuality, then you are goin against your Prophet's words... right?? if everything you believe He said is true, then why question the bible?? it has to be true cuz He said its true... wat u say? [/B]
===================================

The prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) talked about the ORIGINAL bible that got lost not this FALSE one you are using now which promote MAN to be GOD !!

What parts of the Bible do Muslims believe are closest to the Truth?

http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm

sycoindian

01-23-03, 02:54 PM

Green... the sex ratio link that you gave.. i forgot to post this earlier.. but hey, seems like you dont read your refs too well.. quote from your link..

---Several researchers, however, have reported apparent recent declines in the proportion of male births, in the US, Canada, Denmark and the Netherlands. These declines have been very small but statistically significant. Fewer boys are being born than would be expected on the basis of the recent historical worldwide average.----

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewScience/reproduction/sexratio/sexratio.htm

so now... fewer boys are being born... what have you to say about your ratio argument?

sycoindian

01-23-03, 03:14 PM

---You DID not provide any links to support your lies, if you want to be more credible then provide some links. ---

im not the one answering the questions... and i haven't made any outrageous claims that need any support... if there is anythin specific, ask me.. and i'll go support it...

---I used the word EMOTIONAL, I know about the DNA, but how this poor ADULTEROUS woman will feel about that?---

how can you claim emotional trauma on that one? have you experienced it? and why would the woman be adulterous? cuz she slept with more than one man (considerin she is married to more than one man).... that would make a man havin more than one wife adulterous too?

---The Bahai' is not faith, it is corrupted version of Islam.---

that is your opinion... right? Bahai's claim that their religion is independent of islam, not a version of it...

---so why on earth our PURE women should marry men from other unrespectful faiths ?---

if you claim that muslim women are 'pure', that means logically that non muslims aren't pure... and u said 'unrespectful faiths'... as if you are very respectful of anyone else's faith... dont preach what you dont practise... for e.g. read your statement

G W : you need to leave us alone, if you dont like Islam, then why the FUCK you are here in this thread, get the hell out of here and go play somewhere else.

real respectful you are...

---The prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) talked about the ORIGINAL bible that got lost not this FALSE one you are using now which promote MAN to be GOD !! ---

oohh yeahh? u've read the so called original bible? if u haven't, ur statement is already false... let me point out to you AGAIN... im not christian... so if you have somethin against the bible and christians, go and discuss that with christians... we're just talkin about islam here...

interestin link you posted at the bottom.... quite biased i have to say... for eg...

---Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded:---

heflores

01-23-03, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Blackstone
im egyptian...i live in egypt..its written in my profile...
it seems that this wasent so challenging after all....

Blackstone...My parents are Egyptian...I lived in Alex and Cairo for 12 years...

What can I say...you have a big struggle infront of you...I myself couldn't adjust until I completely left the environment. The environment was standing between me and adjustment.

I'm sorry for not being nice to you before...I had issues.

Try to look at my question below without the self pity element and tell me what your answer:

If everyone around you is a hypocrite, how do you find the truth?

sycoindian

01-24-03, 02:01 AM

oooooppss...i just realized that i misunderstood the ratio argument in your link...ehehe.. my mistake... :)

so we have less boys and more women...
what if there are more boys and less women?

Green_World

01-24-03, 02:54 AM

Green_World

01-24-03, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Blackstone
im egyptian...i live in egypt..its written in my profile...
it seems that this wasent so challenging after all....
========================================

So, are you one of those COPTI losers that pretend to be Muslims?

I dont believe you are living in Eygpt, I shall ask the people who run this forum to forward me your IP location..
=================================
and i live in a mid eastern country, there are many polygamy families here, sure, they do not overnumber the one wife families, but they still make quite a big number...
===================================

This is LIE and you know it, specially in MASR and Syria and other arab countries, you know that the majority are ONE WIFE FAMILY
SO STOP YOUR LIES....I AM FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

==================================

what is this crap?
poor in wich scale exactly? each country have its own wealth scale, there are poor, moderate, above moderate and rich people..,moderate in each country scale makes the majority...what is rich in my country can be considered poor in your country and vice versia.
in south egypt..even some not-so-wealthy men marry more than one.
==================================

are you stupid or what ? if you are POOR, how can you afford to house 2 wifes+ childern and spend of them ???

You are refering to RARE exceptions MR. COPTI.

===================================

good for the chienease men, now what is this supposed to proof in your opinion? if china have more females than males then males can never exceed females ever?:rolleyes:

====================================

My link prove that there is decline in the birth of boys...FACT.

===================================
im asking you again: if it happens that males become more than females, are you willing to give women the right to marry more than one man?
===============================

Until that happen I will be more pleased to it, but NOW we are talking about FACTS. I dont want to speculate about what MIGHT happen in the future. no one knows what will happen tomorrow, you might die tomorrow and end up being kafir in JAHANNM WA BE'SA ALMASIR.
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you'r a sad person, if you bothered looking at my posts you would have realised that im an athiest, secular..not christian or any other of your stupid religions...you may read my debates about creation,afterlife and atheism in other threads if you dont believe it.
:rolleyes:
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OK, fair enough.

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i can write wherever i want...if you are having troubles accepting this fact go fuck yourself.

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Or why you dont go and FUCK your ignorance and your blindness
you pathetic kafir who will surely end up in eternal hell fire.
at the day of judgment, you will wish you were DUST....you will see by your own eyes the hell fire...

41. Fussilat:
And (remember) the Day that the enemies of All�h will be gathered to the Fire, so they will be collected there (the first and the last).
20.
Till, when they reach it (Hell-fire), their hearing (ears) and their eyes, and their skins will testify against them as to what they used to do.
21.
And they will say to their skins, "Why do you testify against us?" They will say: "All�h has caused us to speak, as He causes all things to speak, and He created you the first time, and to Him you are made to return."
22.
And you have not been hiding against yourselves, lest your ears, and your eyes, and your skins testify against you, but you thought that All�h knew not much of what you were doing.
23.
And that thought of yours which you thought about your Lord, has brought you to destruction, and you have become (this Day) of those utterly lost!
24.
Then, if they have patience, yet the Fire will be a home for them, and if they beg for to be excused, yet they are not of those who will ever be excused.

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:confused:
um...how does that^ makes me a liar exactly? are you denying the rudda punishment for people who convert out of slam in sunna or what? please be more specefic. [/B]
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You claim to be ex-muslim, if so, you should know the punishment for leaving Islam !!!! should not your MR. KAFIR !!

Green_World

01-24-03, 04:38 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blackstone

ISLAM ATTRACTS CONVERTS BY THE THOUSANDS,
DRAWN BEFORE AND AFTER ATTACKS

By Jodi Wilgoren, The New York Times

ALLWIN, Mo., Oct. 20 - Since she became a Muslim six months ago, Angela Davis has given up many things. She stopped listening to music, started sleeping on the floor, put away her 100 Disney videos and traded her porcelain doll collection for velvet posters with verses from the Koran.

Now, in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Ms. Davis may have to give up her children.

After her photograph, in full veil, appeared in the local newspaper on Sept. 30, Ms. Davis's soon-to-be-ex-husband refused to return their children, 5 and 2, from a weekend visit. She has not seen them since.

"It's a test that is given to me from Allah to see if my faith is strong enough," said Ms. Davis, 27, who discovered Islam in an Internet chat room this spring and now teaches pre-kindergarten at the Al-Salam Day School in this St. Louis suburb. "I'm asked to give up my religion for my kids, but I won't do it. On Judgment Day, as much as I love my kids, they won't be there with me."

Though her situation is extreme, Ms. Davis is one of thousands of new Muslim converts struggling with their identities amid anti-Muslim fervor and declarations of an Islamic holy war being broadcast on television. Already estranged from relatives and friends, some of whom accuse them of joining a cult, these new Muslims face catcalls and fresh challenges to their faith.

Many say the events of Sept. 11 only confirmed their commitment. Shannon Staloch is not sure why, but upon hearing of the hijackings, she immediately grabbed a book from her backpack and recited the Arabic declaration of belief; she made the conversion official 12 days later.

"You know how the world changed when that happened and everyone was shaky?" Ms. Staloch said. "I wanted something steady."

With some 6 million adherents in the United States, Islam is said to be the nation's fastest-growing religion, fueled by immigration, high birth rates and widespread conversion. One expert estimates that 25,000 people a year become Muslims in this country; some clerics say they have seen conversion rates quadruple since Sept. 11.

Experts say Islam is attractive because of its universal message - the faithful believe that everyone is born Muslim and thus call the transformation reversion, not conversion - and because its teachings incorporate other traditions, honoring Jesus Christ, the Jewish patriarch Abraham and other Biblical figures as prophets. Though missionary work is rare in Islam, spreading the message is demanded by the Koran. Conversion is as simple as reciting one sentence - "I bear witness that there is no deity except Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger" - in front of witnesses, a ceremony known as Shahadah.

"There's no class," said Khalid Yahya Blankinship, chairman of the religion department at Temple University. "There isn't really a formalized requirement, you don't have to be tested." Mr. Blankinship, who converted to Islam in 1973 and has since witnessed 100 Shahadahs, added: "It's very important that Islam should spread. The idea is that one should want other souls to be saved."

The vast majority of converts are African-Americans, who make up about a third of Muslims in the United States. Thousands find Allah while in jail or in recovery from drug or alcohol addiction. Less familiar are the lapsed Catholics and lost Jews, often highly educated professionals, who come to the mosque.

Many convert because they want to marry a Muslim who demands it, a common reason for conversions in any religion.

"I would never have changed if it wasn't for Rania," David Nerviani, a St. Louis police officer, said of his Egyptian-born wife, a bartender he met on patrol. "It's probably not that deep for me."

Others find Islam through friendships on college campuses, research papers on world religions or trolling the Internet.

Some just feel called. Abdullah Reda of Reston, Va., said the news of Susan Smith, the South Carolina woman who drowned her two sons, brought him to Islam. A 13-year-old California girl had an epiphany during a sunset drive through the red rocks of Arizona. Katie Mathews, a graduate student at Washington University in St. Louis, who plans to make her Shahadah on her 23rd birthday in November, prayed for a sign and soon saw a license plate, "4 ALLAH."

Nine years ago, Jim Hacking was in training to be a Jesuit priest. Now, he is an admiralty lawyer in St. Louis who has spent much of the last month explaining Islam at interfaith gatherings. Mr. Hacking's search began in the 12-step program Overeaters Anonymous and intensified when he befriended an Egyptian-born woman, Amany Ragab, at the law review at St. Louis University. He made the Shahadah on June 6, 1998, and proposed marriage to her the next day. This summer, the couple traveled to Mecca.

"The thing I've always latched to is that there's one God, he doesn't have equals, he doesn't need a son to come do his work," Mr. Hacking, 31, said. "Giving up the pork and the alcohol was the easy part - I never drank much, but I did like bacon. The hard part, and the part I still struggle with every day, is being a good person, and living a good clean life."

To help with the social transition, the All Dulles Area Muslim Society in Sterling, Va., pairs converts with mentors. Other mosques offer seminars in the basics of Arabic prayer. Web sites like jews-for-allah.org and understandingislam.tripod.com provide glossaries to common Muslim expressions, step-by-step guides to ritual washing, interactive games to teach Arabic, and profiles of fellow converts, organized alphabetically, by county of origin and by former religion.

Perhaps the greatest challenge is maintaining family relationships, as parents often view conversion as a betrayal. One Web site offers a how- to guide for telling relatives. "Do not allow them to drag you into a conflict regarding religion at all," it lectures.

Ms. Stolach, who teaches middle- school literacy, said her mother had helped her shop for hijab, the traditional Muslim head covering, but Ms. Mathews says the main reason she has delayed her Shahadah is that she is living with her parents.

"My mom, she's Christian and she's very upset," Ms Mathews said. "I told her about my signs. She said, how do I know it's not the Devil?"

"The Koran says you have to obey your parents, heaven is at the foot of your mother," she added. "I have to obey God before I obey my mother."

On Sept. 11, Ms. Davis's mother exhorted her to remove the hijab, saying it would endanger her grandchildren. (Ms. Davis's divorce lawyer, and her husband, did not return telephone calls.) Ms. Davis, who wears a shoulder-to-ankle robe over her clothes, also faces resistance from her older two daughters, from a previous marriage, whom she enrolled in an Islamic school this fall, but who have lately said they would prefer to live with their father.

As the afternoon call to prayer sounded from the mosque above Ms. Davis's classroom, the girls, white scarves around their heads, scrambled up to the women's balcony, where they bowed and knelt like old pros. They murmured "bismillah" ("in the name of Allah") before starting a game, "astaghfirullah" ("I beg Allah for forgiveness") after a misstep. But they say their father says their mother worships Satan.

"I got one person saying they want me to be Muslim and then I got my dad saying no Muslim," said Krashanna Agers, 9. "I don't know, I'm not grown up yet."