Sometimes, just for fun, I write essays. Never done anything with them, but lately, I've been wanting to write an essay about Islam, and American involvement in the middle east. So I'm starting this thread to gain a better understanding of Islam. Let me preface by saying that I DO NOT want this thread to degenerate into any form if argument over how one thinks Islam is wrong, or religion is wrong or belief in God, Allah, Jesus or any religious figure is wrong or stupid. Since I do not have Mod powers, I WILL report any such postings. I am ONLY interested in Islamic beliefs. here.

First question:
I remember reading once Muslims believe that God appointed certain duties to the other monotheistic religions. And that the duty he gave to Muslims was to see to it that justice is served in the world. I can't remember where I read this. I was wondering if this is true, and if so, can someone point me to some literature on this or Koranic verses.

Also, what do Muslims believe concerning the bible? Both the Torah, and the new testament. If I am correct, they believe that they are worshiping the same God as Jews and Christians, but it has never been clear to me how they feel about The Hebrew Bible, Jesus, and the new testament.

I know I could just google a lot of this info, but I would certainly enjoy discussing some of these things with some of the people here. Particularly SAM.

Also, what do Muslims believe concerning the bible? Both the Torah, and the new testament. If I am correct, they believe that they are worshiping the same God as Jews and Christians, but it has never been clear to me how they feel about The Hebrew Bible, Jesus, and the new testament.

According to the Quran:


If Allah so willed, he would have made you a single People, but his plan is to test each of you separately, in what He has given to each of you: so strive in all virtues as in you are in a race. The goal of all of you is to Allah. It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute. (Qur'an 5:48)


And dispute not with the People of the Book, except with means better than mere disputation, unless I be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury, but say to them: "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him that we bow." (Qur'an 29:46)

The Quran criticizes Christians and Jews who believed that their own religions the only source of Truth.


They say, if you want to be guided to salvation, you should either become a Jew or Christian. Say: What about the religion of Abraham, he also worshiped no one but Allah. We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, to Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes of Israel, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to all prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah. So, if they believe, they are indeed on the right path, but if they turn back, Allah will suffice them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. This is the Baptism of Allah. And who can baptize better than Allah. And it is He Whom we worship. Say: Will you dispute with us about Allah, He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and you for yours; and that We are sincere in Him? Or do ye say that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah. But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do! That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case.( (Qur'an 2:135-141)


The Jews say: "The Christians have nothing to stand upon"; and the Christians say: "The Jews have nothing to stand upon." Yet they both have something to stand upon, they both recite the Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. (Qur'an 2:113)


Say: “O People of the Book! Come to what is common between us and you: That we worship none but God, that we associate no partners with Him, that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords other than Allah. If then they turn back, say: 'Bear witness that we are bowing to Allah’s will.'" (Qur'an 3:64)

So to Muslims, it is all one God

Meanwhile:


The Zabur of Dawud (David) is referred to in the Qur'an as one of God's books revealed to four selected messengers. The Zabur is preceded by the Taurat (Torah) given to Moses and followed by the Injeel (Gospel) given to Jesus and finally the Qur'an given to the Islamic prophet, Muhammad.

According to Islam, it has been there even since the time of Adem (Adam, who is considered the first human) and not beginning in the 7th century. The Aqeedah (belief system) of Islam is believed to be exactly the same in every single one of the four scriptures and several scrolls and is thought exactly the same by every prophet. Considering this it can be assumed the theological aspects of the Zabur be exactly the same as the Qur'an.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabur

It is all the same aqidah through various deens


We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
—Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayah 163[4][5]


And it is your Lord that knoweth best all beings that are in the heavens and on earth: We did bestow on some prophets more (and other) gifts than on others: and We gave to David (the gift of) the Psalms.
—Qur'an, Sura 17 (Al-Isra), ayah 55[6]


Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message : My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."
—Qur'an, sura 21 (Al-Anbiya), ayah 105[3]


Does this answer your queries?

Thanks SAM. As always, your a lady and a scholar! So I get the impression that Muslims believe that It's not about whether you are Jew, Christian, or Muslim, but more about if you are faithful to what Allah has prescribed to you. And that Jews, Christians and Muslims are not supposed to argue and fight over who is right or wrong, but they are supposed to find common ground between the three different beliefs. Is that correct?

:( My Quran doesn't have surah 5:135-141. It only goes to 120...

From what I understood of the Quran, Muhammad was not against the scriptures and teachings of Christianity and Judaism. But he was against their “Pharisees” just like Jesus was.
I don’t use the word pharisees as in Judaism, but as people who go to church (or synagogue) and perform the rituals of their religions (Judaism and Christianity), but do not follow the true teachings. He said that christians fight against jews because they each claim to have the ultimate truth and said that: “Ignorant people speak in a similar matter”. For dogmatic christians say: “My God is the real one” and dogmatic jews: “my god is the real one”. Ignorance sounds similar indeed.

If you study Islam then you have to consider the environment on which Muhammad lived; it was a very hostile environment were christians and jews were at war with everybody who didn’t believe as they did. And they were fighting as always also because their “sacred territory” is the same and off course they cannot share it like civilized people. But that very fighting is against their own scriptures.

Christians and Jews have killed in the name of their religion, even when they share the “You shall not kill” commandment; it is very stupid since they somehow manage to twist the words of certain quotes of the scriptures so they can quench their thirst for blood. This is what Muhammad was against, but not the scriptures; Muhammad was against the Christian hypocrites, and Jewish hypocrites.

I think Muhammad tried to do with Christianity and Judaism what Jesus was trying to do with Judaism. It was just to give a more accurate interpretation of their scriptures, an interpretation that came from their hearts, and not from a hypocritical priest.

S.A.M.: pls correct me if I'm mistaken since my knowledge of Islan is limited to my own reading of the Quran. I don't know the Suras by memory, but I just transmit my own undertanding of the lecture.

:( My Quran doesn't have surah 5:135-141. It only goes to 120...

Sorry its 2:135-141

Most of the rules of the religion are in al Baqarah

Umm... Whats al Baqarah?

Also, do you hav e any information on the whole justice thing? Thats kind of going to be a major theme of my essay.

Thanks SAM. As always, your a lady and a scholar! So I get the impression that Muslims believe that It's not about whether you are Jew, Christian, or Muslim, but more about if you are faithful to what Allah has prescribed to you. And that Jews, Christians and Muslims are not supposed to argue and fight over who is right or wrong, but they are supposed to find common ground between the three different beliefs. Is that correct?

Yes. The Qur'an forbids zannah or what it calls pointless speculation about religion. People should be more concerned about how they act towards one another than fight over pointless stuff that neither can prove nor determine without the intervention of God.


Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and those who doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. Qur'an 2:62


Umm... Whats al Baqarah?

Also, do you hav e any information on the whole justice thing? Thats kind of going to be a major theme of my essay.

What do you mean by "the whole justice thing"? Al Baqarah is the second chapter in the Qur'an



S.A.M.: pls correct me if I'm mistaken since my knowledge of Islan is limited to my own reading of the Quran. I don't know the Suras by memory, but I just transmit my own undertanding of the lecture.

Thats pretty much what I do, as well. I've read the Qur'an and but only a few suras are memorised, mostly due to prayer or if I especially like it.

What do you mean by "the whole justice thing"?




I remember reading once Muslims believe that God appointed certain duties to the other monotheistic religions. And that the duty he gave to Muslims was to see to it that justice is served in the world...


I seem to recall that Justice is an important thing to Muslims because God appointed the to see to it that it is served, and that the world is a just place. I can't even remotely recall where I read this.

My inspiration for this is a discussion I had with a friend who said that Justice was served when Bin Laden was killed. While I agreed with him on that point, I also pointed out that Americans, and Muslims probably have differing views on what justice is. He claimed that justice is the purest of all things and can't be seen differently. I argued that it very easily can be viewed differently, because while America may see our actions in the middle east as just, I am sure there are a lot of people in the middle east who do not see it as just, and quite possibly may see it as just to do some of the things they are doing that we see as unjust... Does this make sense?

So, what I am looking for, is Koranic verses that have to do with Justice and get an idea of of Muslims see is Justice.

According to the teachings of Islam, everyone is equal before God. And the rules of God demand that everyone be treated justly


“God commands justice and fair dealing...” (Qur'an 16:90)

“O you who believe, be upright for God, and (be) bearers of witness with justice!...” (Qur'an 5:8)

“We sent Our Messengers with clear signs and sent down with them the Book and the Measure in order to establish justice among the people…” (Qur'an 57:25)

“O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even if it be against yourselves, your parents, and your relatives, or whether it is against the rich or the poor...” (Qur'an 4:135)

“Let not the hatred of a people swerve you away from justice. Be just, for this is closest to righteousness…” (Qur'an 5:8)

“…If you judge, judge between them with justice…” (Qur'an 5:42)

“We have revealed to you the scripture with the truth that you may judge between people by what God has taught you.” (Qur'an 4:105)

“…Say: I believe in the Scripture, which God has sent down, and I am commanded to judge justly between you...” (Qur'an 42:15)

“…Be just, for it is closest to God-consciousness…” (Qur'an 5:8)

“…When you speak, speak with justice, even if it is against someone close to you…” (Qur'an 6:152)

But as you rightly said, what is justice?



Equivalence is the Law [2:178-179]

IOW, when someone commits a crime, he has to compensate until the scales of justice are balanced. In capital crimes like terrorism and murder - which are the only two crimes in Islam where a death penalty is permitted if the victims of the crime demand it - the victims can choose, under due process, the compensation that they desire - be it monetary compensation, the death penalty, a life imprisonment or a pardon.



"O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety."

- Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah (5:8)

In ALL cases, forgiveness is superior to punishment


“… They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? " (Qur’an, 24:22)

“The repayment of a bad action is one equivalent to it. But if someone pardons and puts things right, his reward is with Allah…” (Qur’an, 42:40)

“…. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Qur’an, 64: 14)

“But if someone is steadfast and forgives, that is the most resolute course to follow.” (Qur’an, 42:43)

“control their rage and pardon other people.” (Qur’an, 3:134)

It is the belief in Islam that while punishing the offender is payment for the crime, forgiving the offender is healthier for the victim.


My inspiration for this is a discussion I had with a friend who said that Justice was served when Bin Laden was killed. While I agreed with him on that point, I also pointed out that Americans, and Muslims probably have differing views on what justice is

According to the rules of Islam, the people who were wronged by bin Laden i.e. his victims, get to determine what his punishment should be. But this is only after both the offender and victim appear before a third party, a neutral party that is the justice system.

According to the rules of Islam, the people who were wronged by bin Laden i.e. his victims, get to determine what his punishment should be. But this is only after both the offender and victim appear before a third party, a neutral party that is the justice system.

So The US killing him in the way they did, would be seen as unjustby Islamic standards? Even by Muslims who do not support him?

So The US killing him in the way they did, would be seen as unjustby Islamic standards? Even by Muslims who do not support him?

Yes, vigilante killing is not subscribed to by Islam. You cannot take the law into your own hands, no matter how much you hate the person - the only time this is permitted is if you are directly under attack

This does not mean, however, that all Muslims will see it that way as well. There are many Muslims who feel that Osama's crimes contributed to the last 10 years of war which killed people in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere. He was used to justify the torture and killing of so many innocent people. So to many people his crimes make him liable for all the fitna of the last decade and they will be relieved that this excuse no longer exists.

I am of course, a satyagrahi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha) in addition to being a Muslim, and I tend to err on the side of truth - I believe that every human being has the right to face his accusers and have his day in court

So The US killing him in the way they did, would be seen as unjustby Islamic standards? Even by Muslims who do not support him?

As far as I know, violence is prohibited in the Quran; but Muhammad did say that fighting and killing is permitted by god in self defense. This was probably used as an excuse for terrorists whom are said to be muslims, but the killing of innocent people is strongly condemned in the Quran.

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors." (2:190)

"Oh you who believe: do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors." (5:87)

"... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them." (4:90)

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed to God's will in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy the good things of this life and to please themselves: let false hope amuse them: soon will knowledge undeceive them." (15:2-3)

One has to have very clear that "self defense" does NOT equal vengeance. And by no means a person has to held guilty for the actions of another person.

This is all very helpful! Thanks very much SAM and WS!

In ALL cases, forgiveness is superior to punishment

It is the belief in Islam that while punishing the offender is payment for the crime, forgiving the offender is healthier for the victim.
if only america was like that..<sigh>

if only america was like that..<sigh>

one has to begin as an individual

Sometimes, just for fun, I write essays. Never done anything with them, but lately, I've been wanting to write an essay about Islam, and American involvement in the middle east. So I'm starting this thread to gain a better understanding of Islam. Let me preface by saying that I DO NOT want this thread to degenerate into any form if argument over how one thinks Islam is wrong, or religion is wrong or belief in God, Allah, Jesus or any religious figure is wrong or stupid. Since I do not have Mod powers, I WILL report any such postings. I am ONLY interested in Islamic beliefs.It'd be interesting to look into the "Islamic" beliefs that are unique to Islam, verses those the existed prior to Islam - so as to better define what is, and is not, "Islam".

There once was a mathematician from the middle east that used to post here. He was atheist. But he still considered himself Muslim and stated his culture was 'Islamic'. IOWs, lacking a belief in the Qur'an and Mohammad didn't seem to relate to what was 'Islamic' in his mind as 'Islam' was a culture.

Is circumcision Islamic? Is not eating pork Islamic? Is the star and crescent Islamic? Is the Christian Bible Islamic? Is the burka Islamic? How about taking 4 wives, is that Islamic? Inviting people in as guests? Music? Non-religious Literature?

I'd be interested in the pre-Islamic rituals that are considered Islamic. Such as praying 5 times a day, circumventing a square stone in a particular direction a specific number of times, etc....

The aqidah is the same since Adam. So what you want to know is whether people have always worshipped in the same way. And the answer to that is sometimes yes, sometimes not.


Is circumcision Islamic? Is not eating pork Islamic? Is the star and crescent Islamic? Is the Christian Bible Islamic? Is the burka Islamic? How about taking 4 wives, is that Islamic? Inviting people in as guests? Music? Non-religious Literature?

There are a lot of traditions mixed up with religion

According to the Quran, there is no mention of circumcision; eating pork is considered unhealthy like eating blood and both are haram; the star and crescent are both symbols which were adopted by Muslims as a symbol of Islam after the Ottomans but have been present since antiquity going as far back as the Maobites [in that it is simlar to the Christian cross], the Christian Bible is called the Injeel in Islam, the burka was first adopted by the ancient Assyrians, polygamy is permitted in Islam but it did not begin with Islam

As since we are on the topic of justice,

“If you fear that you can not be just, then marry only one…” (Quran 4:3)

There are a lot of traditions mixed up with religionIs Islam tradition or religion and can the two be separated? Can a person be Muslim and not believe in God? If a person lives their entire life in complete accordance with "Islam" but the whole time lacks a belief in God, is she still "Islamic"? Is anything she did "Islamic"? Can her actions BE Islamic if she's isn't able to believe in God?

You mention the Star and Crescent. You seem to argue it's not Islamic because it's use predates Islam. Well, so does belief in One God. I'd argue most of the Qur'an predates Islam.

Also, you base a number of notions of what is "Islamic" by prefacing your argument: According to the Qur'an.... Does this mean that people who lived and died prior to the codification of the Qur'an were not Islamic (seeing as in there's be no Qur'an to accord with)? Is Islam static, like the Qur'an or does it evolve? Is Islam only based on the whim of the interpretation of a person on that day?

It's been suggested that most of the Qur'an makes little sense when read in "Classical Arabic" and that meaning can be found when read in a more natural language of the time: Syro-Aramaic. Using the argument: According to the Qur'an, when read in Syro-Aramaic, the word huri, universally interpreted by "Islamic" scholars as white-eyed virgins (who will serve the faithful in Paradise; Qur'an 44:54, 52:20, 55:72, 56:22) means, when read in Syro-Aramaic: white grapes. Which makes good sense when we view the Qur'an for what it is: one of the multitude of Christian Bibles in use by the wide array of Christians at that time in that place (some of whom did not think Jesus was the Son of God, that he was not crucified and that he was a Prophet - hell, some thought he was Satan, some thought he was a dualistic spirit. It's a fact that some of these Christians used the word Mohammad as Jesus's Title - were they Islamic? Was the pre-Islamic belief that Jesus was not Crucified, actually an Islamic belief? It's no accident that many Syrian Christian "secs", like the one that evolved into "Islam", described Christian Paradise as abounding in pure white grapes - certainly not virgin girls.

So: Which is Islamic? White Grapes or White Virgins? I'd say the virgins.

So: Which is Islamic? White Grapes or White Virgins? I'd say the virgins.

Whichever you want it to be

In classical Arabic:


According to classical Arabic usage in the time when the Qur'an was recited by Muhammad, Hur'in is made of two words Hur as well as In. The word 'Hur' is the plural of both Ahwar (Masculine) and Hawra (Feminine) which literally translates as "white-eyed", or persons distinguished by Hawar, signifying "intense whiteness of the eyeballs and lustrous black of the pupils." (ref: Qamus ), hence 'the purity' (ref: Tafsir al'Tabari, and Tafsir al-Razi in 3:52). And as for the phrase, "In it is the plural of both 'Ayan' (Masculine) and 'Ainao' (Feminine)",[23] it was also used to refer to the beautiful eyes of the wild-cow whose eyes are blond. In general, this word implies 'most beautiful eye' irrespective of the person's gender. Thus, it seems that the most appropriate English rendering of the compound word Hur'In might be: "Companions pure, most beautiful of eye."[24] and it is applicable to both male and female.[25]

Whichever you want it to be

In classical Arabic:Oh, so it's all up to me. Good, we have to agree for once. Then, as I said, I suggest Virgin 'Companions'.

Good thing the idiot who made-up Islamic Virgin 'Companions' who regrow their hymen (if it should, you know, happen to break), didn't have a predilection for dressing himself in "Islamic" man-diapers and sitting in a "Islamic" crib sucking his fat "Islamic" toe :eek: Although, equally as embarrassing from a religious POV, at least the Islamic sex-virgins in heaven makes sense - from a 15 year old boy's perspective anyhow. Or anyone with the mental aptitude of a 15 year old boy. Pretty much most men ;)

So, we agree, a perfect example of Islam.



A good chapter on Islam could be how Historically the Greeks and Italians thought of it as a joke of a religion. They seriously had a laugh. Some couldn't believe anyone could be so stupid. I mean, come to my Church, get a free Virgin when you die. You'd have to be an idiot. Or so they thought. One could also find some parallels into the perception of Chinese Buddhists -at least the few who bothered to read about Islam.

What I'd like to know is when Christianity diverted from being a reasonably 'religious' paradigm and twisted into "Islam" with all the trappings of a wingnut politician making idiotic promises on the stump. When do you suppose that happened? I wonder if the polytheistic Arabs brought those beliefs into Christianity or were they from a lone nut having 'visions'? Which earlier Gods promised men 72 virgins in heaven to bonk? Or is this as example of something that one could call "purely" Islamic? As the White Grape verse is Christian, it only makes sense to suggest a half illiterate mutton head politician had a go, tested the market, found a winner among a segment of the population. Who knows, sexually repressed Christians might have converted just for the 72 virgins? Makes sense.

So, we agree, a perfect example of Islam.
No man, that is textbook religious fundamentalism.


What I'd like to know is when Christianity diverted from being a reasonably 'religious' paradigm and twisted into "Islam"
Christianity did not "diverted" into Islam, anymore than Judaism "diverted" into Christianity.
It is not like that. Muhammad lived in the 6th century, and many converted to Islam willingly from other religions, in the 7th century Sufism was born due to the "worldliness" of the mainstream Islam that already had taken place by then.

Both Christianity and Islam have violent, ugly pasts that aren't caused by the nature of the religion itself, but the stupidity and ignorance of some people.

Both Christianity and Islam have violent, ugly pasts that aren't caused by the nature of the religion itself, but the stupidity and ignorance of some people.

Not just Christianity or Islam, the stupidity and ignorance of some people pervades all areas of the world and all aspects of life

No man, that is textbook religious fundamentalism.


Christianity did not "diverted" into Islam, anymore than Judaism "diverted" into Christianity.
It is not like that. Muhammad lived in the 6th century, and many converted to Islam willingly from other religions, in the 7th century Sufism was born due to the "worldliness" of the mainstream Islam that already had taken place by then.

Both Christianity and Islam have violent, ugly pasts that aren't caused by the nature of the religion itself, but the stupidity and ignorance of some people.I'm not so sure Islam has a violent beginning. Is there any contemporary evidence of that having occurred? It seems pretty reasonable that Islam, or at least Muslims, were violent, but, probably not any more than anyone else, anywhere else. But, I suppose you'd have to decide when Islam actually started. Sometime in the 7th-9th century.

As for Mohammad, the only contemporary evidence for Mohammad existing is as a word on a coin being used as a Title for Christ. That's on a Syrian coin. We have these coins. This is strong evidence that Islam is a type of Gnostic Christianity. Why else is it that the Qur'an is 80% a contemporary modern Bible. It's a Bible. Or was one rather. Other than that, there isn't a single specific reference to Mohammad anywhere. So, it makes no sense to start "Islam", something that seems to exist, with a protagonist in a fictional myth.


Lastly, Christianity was derived from Judaism. Many early Christians were Jews living in Alexandria and Greece.


Regardless, modern Islam, doesn't seem to be so compatible with the modern multicultural shrinking world with it's many Gods and Goddesses and non-Islamic cultures. Thus, either Islam will change, or modern Muslims will continue to exist stage right. Not just Muslims mind you, most people in the modern world. Perhaps now is a good time to redefine Islam.

No proof of Muhammad, no proof of Jesus, no proof of Moses; but I don't think that is relevant to this thread.

But no, Islam is not a form of Christianity, since it explains that Jesus was one the many prophets.

In any way, I think this thread would be more interesting if people stick with their interpretations on the Quran or other islamic literature.

Not just Christianity or Islam, the stupidity and ignorance of some people pervades all areas of the world and all aspects of life

I like to think that stupid people are not the mayority, but they do make more noise.

No proof of Muhammad, no proof of Jesus, no proof of Moses; but I don't think that is relevant to this thread.

But no, Islam is not a form of Christianity, since it explains that Jesus was one the many prophets.

In any way, I think this thread would be more interesting if people stick with their interpretations on the Quran or other islamic literature.

Don't worry, those are not Islamic beliefs but Michael's beliefs about Islam. The two are mutually exclusive and the latter irrelevant to this thread.

But no, Islam is not a form of Christianity, since it explains that Jesus was one the many prophets.That may be true of modern Christianity NOW, however, 50% of Christians THEN did NOT believe in trinity.

Believing Jesus was a Prophet was Christian. Believing Jesus was Satan, was (believe it or not) Christian. Believing in dual souls, Jesus being one, was Christian. Believing Jesus never actually existed, was Christian.

It all depended on the particular Christian you were talking to. Lots of different beliefs back then. Some almost identical to modern Islam - which actually evolved into modern Islam.



This makes me at least, wonder WHAT exactly is Islamic? IMO, an interesting perspective would be the history of "Islam". Which is why FMPOV distinctions between early pre-Islam/Christianity and modern Islam are points that are important.

What is and is not uniquely Islamic? Anything?

Walking around a square stone counter clockwise three times and tossing rocks at it while cursing the underworld, is apparently pagan, for example.

Is that Islamic?

Don't worry, those are not Islamic beliefs but Michael's beliefs about Islam. The two are mutually exclusive and the latter irrelevant to this thread.Actually, as stupid as it sounds, that is an Islamic belief.

Google 'Islam" + '72 Virgin'
About 17,100,000 results (0.12 seconds)

First Link:
WikiIslam.net
72 Virgins (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins)



Is there ANY other religion that promises 72 virgins that regrow their hymen in paradise? I mean, pretty much ALL superstitions have a paradise, but as I know it, only Islam promises a carrot of virgins. While I, and pretty much 99% of non Muslims in the world, find it hilarious and indicative of Islam, many a 15 year old boy and man-children, spent their life thinking they get virgins in heaven if only they abstain from pepperoni pizza....



Surely such a unique superstitious belief qualifies as Islamic?

Actually, as stupid as it sounds, that is an Islamic belief.

Google 'Islam" + '72 Virgin'
About 17,100,000 results (0.12 seconds)

First Link:
WikiIslam.net
72 Virgins (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins)



Is there ANY other religion that promises 72 virgins that regrow their hymen in paradise? I mean, pretty much ALL superstitions have a paradise, but as I know it, only Islam promises a carrot of virgins. While I, and pretty much 99% of non Muslims in the world, find it hilarious and indicative of Islam, many a 15 year old boy and man-children, spent their life thinking they get virgins in heaven if only they abstain from pepperoni pizza....



Surely such a unique superstitious belief qualifies as Islamic?


Lol, I'm well aware that that site is anti-Islamic.

You have to respect a belief that says there is sex in heaven. I don't think Christians ever say that.

Who the hell would want sex with a virgin for all eternity?? That would be hell!

She wouldn't be one for long.

You have to respect a belief that says there is sex in heaven. I don't think Christians ever say that.
there has to be..

Who the hell would want sex with a virgin for all eternity?? That would be hell!
what a bloody mess..
but does it say you will be having sex non-stop? that would be hell..no matter how hot she is..

Is the belief you'll have sex in heaven with 72 'companions', Islamic? I certainly don't recall Judaism or Christianity preaching about being virtuous now so you can be a letch with 72 perpetual virgins then.

I also was wondering, do 'companions' have any form of freewill? Are 'companions' free to refuse to have sex with It's human master? And if so, does the virtuous human have the right to rape said 'companion'?


Google: 72 companions
About 6,200,000 results (0.25 seconds)

Houri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri)


In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية‎) are commonly translated as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)", [2] "lovely eyed",[3] of "modest gaze",[4] "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinn who enter paradise after being recreated anew in the hereafter.[5] Islam also has a strong mystical tradition which places these heavenly delights in the context of the ecstatic awareness of God.


Speaking of Islamic pornography. Check out this 15th century Persian classic right here. Hmmmm Mmmmmmm that thar Whouri on the right is looking might-tee fine.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Houris_on_Camelback_-_15th_century_Persia.png

I don't think the belief on this weird unlikely paradise depicted in Islam, defines Islam. i think this is corrupted Islam by politics.

Islam is one of the religions that has followed the old patterns of manipulation of the masses (such as Christianity and Hinduism):
* Fear god, for if you disobey his law you will suffer eternally. This is fear-oriented manipulation.
* Sex is evil, and if you have profane sex in this life you will suffer in eternal damnation.
* If you obey god you will have sex in heaven (with 72 virgins nonetheless).

I mean, come on isn’t it obvious? Repress the sexual drive of the masses, and then promise them the relief if they follow your orders. As if it’s not a known fact that sex is one of the most hard-wired instincts of all animals, and the basis for life and evolution.

And the manipulation out of fear is as basic as it gets.

Both heaven and hell will be so overwhelming that it's inappropriate to even think about likening them to this worldly life. And there are verses in the noble Quran to support that.

There are a lot of traditions mixed up with religion The OP is not clear whether the query concerns ideal Islam as modern interpretations of the Quran would have it be some day, or the collection of the actual religions and sects labeled "Islam" as practiced by living human beings - the beliefs people actually have.

I don't think the belief on this weird unlikely paradise depicted in Islam, defines Islam. i think this is corrupted Islam by politics.

Islam is one of the religions that has followed the old patterns of manipulation of the masses (such as Christianity and Hinduism):
* Fear god, for if you disobey his law you will suffer eternally. This is fear-oriented manipulation.
* Sex is evil, and if you have profane sex in this life you will suffer in eternal damnation.
* If you obey god you will have sex in heaven (with 72 virgins nonetheless).

I mean, come on isn’t it obvious? Repress the sexual drive of the masses, and then promise them the relief if they follow your orders. As if it’s not a known fact that sex is one of the most hard-wired instincts of all animals, and the basis for life and evolution.

And the manipulation out of fear is as basic as it gets.It's not so much that it defines Islam, but that it IS an example of Islam.

I'm not saying that the 72 Virgin companions are to Islam, what Enlightenment is to Buddhism, but only that it is an example of Islam. That aside, Islam certainly utilizes it's fair share of fear to maintain faith in Allah. It's difficult (to impossible) for most Muslims to even think critically about Allah. Whereas, AFAIK, Buddhism OTOH, critical thinking is encouraged. Not to make comparisons with Buddhism, but, certain elements of the Muslim faith can be considered Islamic in the same way that certain elements of the Buddhist's faith can be considered Buddhist.

It's not so much that it defines Islam, but that it IS an example of Islam.

I'm not saying that the 72 Virgin companions are to Islam, what Enlightenment is to Buddhism, but only that it is an example of Islam. That aside, Islam certainly utilizes it's fair share of fear to maintain faith in Allah. It's difficult (to impossible) for most Muslims to even think critically about Allah. Whereas, AFAIK, Buddhism OTOH, critical thinking is encouraged. Not to make comparisons with Buddhism, but, certain elements of the Muslim faith can be considered Islamic in the same way that certain elements of the Buddhist's faith can be considered Buddhist.

Well, I think you are right about that. Note aside, I don't think "Enlightenment" defines "Buddhism" either, the idea is just a motivation.

This is why it's interesting, and difficult, to write about "Islam" as it can have a large number of meaning to various people.

Nuns wear strict head covering most would consider "Christian". I think most people would consider burka's "Islamic". Not all Christians wear, or think anyone should wear, habits. To say, habits are not in the Bible, therefor they are not Christian, seems like a narrowly defined, ax to grind, argument. Likewise, to say the Burka is not an example of something "Islamic" would be disingenuous. Yet, you'll find a great number of apologists doing just that. Hence these threads go nowhere.