It's interesting that we often try to use the wrong tool to get the answers we seek. The rational mind, with its exquisitely evolved capability for logic and reason, is fantastic for finding food and shelter and increasing wealth. It's a hindrance for revealing what you know.

My point is that the Western mind is trained from day one to be the ultimate dualistic machine; and so it is very hard for us to break out of that mold. Maybe that's the reason psychedelic drugs were so remarkable here in the West in the Sixties, and caused such a vast convulsion in the culture. They ripped away the carefully constructed facade of rationalism and allowed a glimmer of the enormous potential energies that lie beyond.

Interesting that when Richard Alpert allowed a self-aware Hindu (later to become his spiritual guide) to use LSD, his response was more or less... "so what?". It points out that in the West, we are so reliant on the rationalist view that it takes a major shift in conciousness (a ethogenic drug, an extreme emotional event, a death, etc.) to break us out far enough to even begin to address the questions of "what we are" and "what we know".

Watcher,


Wonderful topic!

Consequent rationalism is one of those things I really really hate. It is an inductive fraud of the most hideous kind, since it considers itself as valid and reliant, while at the same time saying that its basis is "empirical evidence" which depends on observation, and observation can be faulty. Thus, whatever you build on this evidence (which can be faulty), can also be faulty. -- But rationalists, even though they admit it is true, like to dismiss this consequence, as it just doesn't fit their scheme.

So what exactly are you trying to say? That we become irrational?


Yeah that'll help us a lot...

not 'irrational', but nonrational, which could also be defined as wonder. when the mouth hangs open in ecstatic wonder droolingly
yu see, this is what i see happening with emphasis on so-called rationality, inevitable irraionality happens. this insight i am sure was seen by ancinet philosophical Taosim. I.e that whenever a movement reaches an extreme--unconscious of its dynamic poar relionship, or better, complimentarity with its opposite, then it can turn into its opposite.
thus we have now a severely rationalistic-heavy culture which acts irrationally...war on abc, running round making everything worse. all kinds of confusion

NON rationality is got from ecstatic exploration via hallucinogens. this is the easiest route

i am fresh from such an excursion. having just had a holiday in Devon, and on the Wednesday, Tripping with two people by the sea

We looked at the stars. walked through woods, say fairy dust colming from the lighted torch....'FAIRY DUST!!" the rationalist screams....'yeah'

later we all happened upon a TV docu about life in Israel under the conflict. any rationalist observing my behaviour would have concluded i was a l;ughing, hysteical, slobbering fool/imbecile. but i was seeing directly through those dripping with tears eyes.
i was seeing nonrationally. 'rationality' wasn't binding me. i SAw that as simple as eggs. IF those people dont stop clinging to their beliefs-which-divide themselves from each other, then the horrible atmoshere will inevitably continue. it is so.

not 'irrational', but nonrational,

You mean irrational.

which could also be defined as wonder.

How does wonder help us more than rationality does?
when the mouth hangs open in ecstatic wonder droolingly

This benefits us how?

yu see, this is what i see happening with emphasis on so-called rationality, inevitable irraionality happens. this insight i am sure was seen by ancinet philosophical Taosim. I.e that whenever a movement reaches an extreme--unconscious of its dynamic poar relionship, or better, complimentarity with its opposite, then it can turn into its opposite.
thus we have now a severely rationalistic-heavy culture which acts irrationally...war on abc, running round making everything worse. all kinds of confusion

Please, try English next time. I can't understand what you are trying to say.

NON rationality is got from ecstatic exploration via hallucinogens. this is the easiest route

.....so you're saying we should all just takes drugs, and forget everything we know? Good plan...

i am fresh from such an excursion. having just had a holiday in Devon, and on the Wednesday, Tripping with two people by the sea

...

We looked at the stars. walked through woods, say fairy dust colming from the lighted torch....'FAIRY DUST!!" the rationalist screams....'yeah'

Fairy...dust?

later we all happened upon a TV docu about life in Israel under the conflict. any rationalist observing my behaviour would have concluded i was a l;ughing, hysteical, slobbering fool/imbecile. but i was seeing directly through those dripping with tears eyes.

English?
i was seeing nonrationally.

Irrationally

'rationality' wasn't binding me.

You mean you were being stupid.

i SAw that as simple as eggs.

Huh?

IF those people dont stop clinging to their beliefs-which-divide themselves from each other, then the horrible atmoshere will inevitably continue. it is so.

What horrible atmosphere? And who are you to say it is so? You don't have a very good grip of the language, why should ANYTHING you say be so?



Please try to learn English before you post next time.

look, dude or girl, you seem awfully lazy and sarcastic, ANd rude. i have better things to do with my time than try and communicate important insights with people like yourself who assume that showing disrespect will not have its effect

do you understand THAt english?

NON rationality is got from ecstatic exploration via hallucinogens. this is the easiest route

i am fresh from such an excursion. having just had a holiday in Devon, and on the Wednesday, Tripping with two people by the sea
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

This may be another side-effect of rational imperialism: losing the ability to see things without a reasonable explanation responsibly. It's Spock having to take hallucogenics in order to show emotion. Overcorrection leads to oversteering and overreacting. Ironically, a reason-addict will start losing (or suppressing) the ability to be reasonable by any other standards than the empirical. If reason were really so imminent, people would have lost their ability to deal with life. Fortunately, matter over mind is just as hard to maintain as mind over matter.

Is drugs the only way a scientist can relate to his wife and children? No. Is empirical evidence his only reason for relating to them? No. If he is neither completely rational nor irrational, what is he?

I would say: human.

How does wonder help us more than rationality does?
when the mouth hangs open in ecstatic wonder droolingly
It's so much, much more than that! If reason is your world, then everything else might seem about as meaningful as giggling at butterflies - but that's only possible if you deny of a lot of the assumptions your life already operates on.

That denial usually comes in the form of some sort of justification, like "everybody does it, and whether I agree with them or not, I'm part of that society". That's like saying you only believe raping is wrong because everybody around you thinks so, but otherwise... who knows? This happens under extreme circumstances, like war. But some things are easier to justify under less controversial circumstances - like stealing. If you're broke and hungry, you might actually feel you have a case. Rationally, you might. Morally, you don't. See the conflict?


Irrationally
'rationality' wasn't binding me.
Neither was anything else, am I right? If drugs were a valid escape from rational behaviour, then date rape could be defensible, and drunk driving could be excusible. The "drugs made me do it" mentality is just as morally irresponisble as "my DNA is programmed to make me do it".

Jenyar, i am curious....have you had experience with psilocybin mushrooms?

i ask this because it is difficult to communicate in words about the experiences you may have after ingesting them. Your reponses seem to suggest to me you haven't, but i will listen to you

whn i say 'nonrationality' i am not suggesting rationality doesn't EXIST any more. of COURSe it does......
look, you have to understand that -as Heisenberg said--we are 'suspended in language".....yeah?
the way we use language, abstracting 'terms' like 'rationality' 'feelings' etcect. is abstracting isn't it. the trouble is is when we conduse that semantic overlay with reality. when we assume there is a 'thing' which is 'rationality'
rather rationality as we are brought up with its emphasis in our so-called educational institutions, BINDs us in the limits of what 'it' says is 'true' 'sane' and so on
so in that context then "NONrationality' means not losing the mode of rationality, but rather not being under its spell. a spell which can dull the best of us

Jenyar, i am curious....have you had experience with psilocybin mushrooms?

i ask this because it is difficult to communicate in words about the experiences you may have after ingesting them. Your reponses seem to suggest to me you haven't, but i will listen to you
I've never smoked a cigarette, not to mention mushrooms. I prefer steinpilser and natural highs. I appreciate your understanding.

whn i say 'nonrationality' i am not suggesting rationality doesn't EXIST any more. of COURSe it does......
look, you have to understand that -as Heisenberg said--we are 'suspended in language".....yeah?
the way we use language, abstracting 'terms' like 'rationality' 'feelings' etcect. is abstracting isn't it. the trouble is is when we conduse that semantic overlay with reality. when we assume there is a 'thing' which is 'rationality'
rather rationality as we are brought up with its emphasis in our so-called educational institutions, BINDs us in the limits of what 'it' says is 'true' 'sane' and so on
so in that context then "NONrationality' means not losing the mode of rationality, but rather not being under its spell. a spell which can dull the best of us
I am in full agreement with Heisenberg, but did he suggest we escape it? Should babies jump their cradle, or old men discard their walking sticks? They're there for a reason. Sure, don't make it the extent of your world, but why try to transcend it? Our so-called educational institutions are so-called because we have realized the merits of having an education. It's good that we take note of our sources and assumptions, and I can understand that you feel you have to go out of your mind to escape their influence, but those "bindings" are what binds people to each other, for better or for worse. The perspective you get on truth while being high is still available without drugs, and neither do you need drugs to appreciate it. It's an excuse to, but not a good one.

If you don't wish to be under the spell of something, take control of it. Face it and overcome it. If reality dulls you, show some responsibility and be creative. Use your imagination, don't look for an inferior substitute.

I can assure you it is not an 'inferior substitute" my friend, by ANY means...haha
in fact, what are hallcuinogens have enthralled our species from time immemorial, and most myth and religion has been created as a reult of our ancestors obviously experimenting with them

what went wrong is when that was prohibited and/or forgotten about, and then we got left with just empty dry symbolism

regarding education being a binding agent 'for good or worse'....well, for worse i am afriad. it is an hoorendous indoctrination factory that dulls the mindbody.
most people are confomists robots leading dull meaningless lives.
what hallucinogenic experience does is shakes you out of that dull meaningless conformity....even if for a little while. then it is up to you ti integrate the deep insights you may have

you know, really, your judging of hallucinogens even before any have passed you lips, is a little like talking about onion soup having never tasted it.....a 'little'...VERY V E R Y little

most people are confomists robots leading dull meaningless lives.
But you're not, right? Is marriage not an institution? And who taught you to read and write?

Heroin is addictive after first use. And that's just the "normal" dose. If you have ever tried to help someone restore some resemblence of a life who was caught up in drugs, you might have a different opinion of what is dull and meaningless.

no i'm not. which doesn't mean i am 'content' have 'arrived' am 'enlightened' exploring is nonending. but if you knew me i am sure you wouldn't think me conformist

about drugs. yes i am very familiar with heroin. not from personal use--as i've never tried it--but from working at a needle exchange for two years. i got to know a lot of users of heroin, crack cocaine etc in a frinedly way

please dont confuse the hallucinogens with narcotics. they are not the same at all. in fact properly used they can even help resolve habitual use of narcotics and alcohol (i will leave you to research this for yourself)

again i say, to try and dismiss hallucinogenic experience as 'inferior' or anything withOUT having put your toe in the water--metaphorically speakin--is like trying to talk about sex never having tried it. supefluous.

i am not trying to do a superior number on you here. i would be if i claimed i was 'enlightened' and was a guru. THEN it is on you to follow me, and maybe just maybe one day you might get my insight. all of that is a scam in my opinion. but with hallucinogens, ANYone can make the effort to al least try them to see for themselves.
If you are fearfel they could be addiictive, then all i can recommend is you do the research. i am convinced you will find out they are not

Admittedly some people DO abuse them. i put this down to ignorance regarding their beneficial potential, and their very ancient history. So the discussing about all of that is meaningful in that context.
Our culture is extremely commodity based, and the youth fall into the pattern of that. So all that has to be understood

the important thing is also what YOU bring to the hallucinogenic experience. it is like a meeting...a flowering

no i'm not. which doesn't mean i am 'content' have 'arrived' am 'enlightened' exploring is nonending. but if you knew me i am sure you wouldn't think me conformist
Here's the thing: everybody's different. You're not more different because you realize you are or act that way. It's like Gary Larson's penguin shouting, "I gotta be me!" out of a monotonous crowd of other penguins. It's a good attitude.

again i say, to try and dismiss hallucinogenic experience as 'inferior' or anything withOUT having put your toe in the water--metaphorically speakin--is like trying to talk about sex never having tried it. supefluous.
No, I'm sure it provides a superior (at least comparably) experience. My point is that your life doesn't have to be so dull in comparison. That's why the Hindu above could say "so what?" That's all I'm saying. I think I life filled with wonder and imagination beats a fleeting (not to mention expensive and possibly illegal) high. I appreciate the sentiment that it "taps into history" - but that's just another justification. As you say: it's about what you bring to the experience. Isn't that true about life in general? Hallucogenics are narrow-minded and desensitizing in my opinion, because they force life to seem boring in comparison; a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's a form of escapism, and nothing wrong with that, but if it's so different than the rest of your life, maybe you're missing more than you realize. Remember, the chemicals and receptors that allow you to have a hullucogenic experience are still there without the shrooms. Maybe they exist for something more lasting?

I'm going river-rafting this weekend at the Victoria Falls (http://www.places.co.za/html/vicfalls.html). It's bigger than the American Falls and the Horseshoe Falls (at Niagara Falls (http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0004975.html)) put together. Hallucogenics is like a kid offering me his licked lollipop in comparison. I'm just politely declining the offer. It's the same reason I don't smoke.

Jenyar says: "Hallucinogenics are narrow-minded and desensitizing in my opinion, because they force life to seem boring in comparison; a self-fulfilling prophecy."

well, are you talking for me or you. it can't be you caus you admit you've never tried any hallucnogens. And i know for sure it aint me, because my experience with hallucinogens has greatly enriched my life experience, in fact my first LSD sessions when 15 OPENED me up to Nature, which i now realize had been dulled by shooling and life in general--as dictated by media etc.

so this debate could go round in circles jenyar. if you had had hallucinogenic experience and said that, then it would be a differnt debate. but it is absurd for you to assume that without the experience. surely you see that..?

I actually see us a CONTINUUM. a dynamic be-ing. one moment you can feel up, then down, then something else. you could have a cup of tea and get a subtle shift of mood. go for a walk. go river rafting, etc etc. hallucinogenic experience really is inspiration inot Deepening. it would be silly to want that experience all of the time. no experience is all of the time. but insights are got from deep experiences. THAt is the point

I actually see us a CONTINUUM. a dynamic be-ing. one moment you can feel up, then down, then something else.
Life.

I see what you mean. But how deep should an experience be for experience to include all of life? How deep should you cut before you start to feel?

Jenyar asks: "I see what you mean. But how deep should an experience be for experience to include ALL of life? How deep should you cut before you start to feel?

whist pondering your question, two images came to me--making love to a lover, and the self-harming behaviour (becoming more and more common amongst the youth, especially young girls) of cutting.

When making love to your lover, i am assuming you are wanting a deep experience. To as 'how deep' is eally putting a coneptual limit on deepness. there is no 'how' as such, but 'going with'. so deepness is un-fathomable. there is no bottom (excuse the pun)....the more you go with the flow, the more intense is climax. and then that climating ecstatic release could be said to 'include all life', for at that instance your limiting sense of yourself, your social persona ("you") disappears or expands (however you want to term it). orgasm has been called "the little death".
I am using this analogy, because i experience the hallucinogenic experience as ecstatic, and thus erotic, sensual. For now--in the experience--your whole organism is open and receptive to Nature. So it is orgiastic. Of course how you APPROACH this experience--set&setting--is vitally important, which is why i previously said that it is what YOU bring to the experience. not just lying back and seeing the experience as 'entertaining' you. it is a meeting. a making love, and there is no limits to the deepness you may feel

as for the 'cutting'. I have also been extremely interested in the phenomenon of self-cutting--though i haven't dont it myself. i feel what it includes is this:
that the person feels SO overwhlemed with the all-pervasive mixed emotions resulting from complex intermingling problems that the act of cutting. focussing on parts of the body, FOCUS the pain to A site. AND many say that doing that MAKES them feel. makes them feel alive.
Of course they may end up covered in scars. And this problem defeats many people even having trained in that 'field'. They might suggest 'anti-depressants' or whatnot. For in this culture emotions are feared. mainly because they are indicators about the REAL state of things. NOT what the cultural paradigm dictates as to how things should be, or really are.
When you take hallucinogens, you can see right through that paradigm. what you do with that insight depends on how deep you wanna go

Sex is both the fulfilment of being and the essence of it, so it's a good analogy. I have heard from people who cut themselves that it's a pain they can deal with. It substitutes a pain or a reality they don't know how to deal with, one that's intangible.

Death is a reality we have to face, not escape. But like sex, when it becomes an act of escapism or purely pleasure, it ceases to be relevant - it loses it's roots in reality. It becomes a fantasy, and fantasies have no limits. I'm just cautioning you: beware of your fantasies, that they don't water down reality. Drugs are a cut into your spiritual arm as well. The feed a desire that has other purposes. Hallucogenics have their uses, but they are ultimately only subsititutes.

one could say this about 'extreme sports'.....water-rafting, maybe?..hehe
that some people really NEED that adrenalyne, them endorphins, and get restless unless they are throwin themselves off cliffs, risking thie rlives doin all sorts

eating, shopping, etc etc. you can apply what you are saying to any activity

i am trying to open up debate about hallucinogens because of their profound importance, respectfully approached. but FIRST you have to be brave and try em. only THAN can you criticize them if you want to. i would still challenge that though
but as i keep saying, to right them off, withOUT having explored them is folly, and a kind of fear. there must be SOME attraction for you to be so eager to continue this debate.
tis thge season you know. dont know whereabouts you live.....but Liberty Caps are fairly easy to find all over. 30 of the little buggers should do it

one could say this about 'extreme sports'.....water-rafting, maybe?..hehe
that some people really NEED that adrenalyne, them endorphins, and get restless unless they are throwin themselves off cliffs, risking thie rlives doin all sorts
:) Yes I thought of that. That's why I asked: how deep should we cut? It's's certaintly a form of enjoyment, of escapism. But experiencing life as it presents itself is still line with reality.

People who sell Liberty Caps go to jail where I live. (South Africa, by the way). The attraction to me is revulsion. What I've seen of hallucogenics (not even drugs) is that they present immieiate gratification, and leave you stoned. If you're not going to use them consistently, what's the point? And if you're going to use them consistently, to what end? Then it's not "deepening" anymore, but shallow and superficial. I don't go on adventure trips every weekend, but I don't need to. I have an imagination. I don't want something that only promises to let me down to replace that.

I wonder what you mean by "in line with reality"...whose reality is that? sciences', what they term reality should be. how do you KNOW there aren't hidden depths till you take the plunge?
you are looking at it from outside. you seem to say you have experienced people who have taken hallucinogens and dont like what you see. and thus have no qualms about them being sent to jail. for me that is obscene. truly obscene. if you knew the experience you would realize why i feel like that. it is spiritual, and full of depth and love.

yet you are constantly judging it from an UN epxperienced position. i might as well judge water-rafting. i wouldn't presume to tell you how to do it, or what it's like. i do not know. i certainly wouldn't send you to jail for the freedom of doing it

it iant long ago that there was apartheid in your country, yet now the persecuted seem to be people who take hallucinogens. truly sad

i am TOTALLY against the drug war. it is evil
when--IF--you even DO take the plunge. live 'dangerously' and experiemnt, put yer money where yer mouth is, an eat some hallcuingenic substance, this might give you a more empathic view regarding people and their free right to eat and drink what the hell they want as autonomous adults

I wonder what you mean by "in line with reality"...whose reality is that? sciences', what they term reality should be. how do you KNOW there aren't hidden depths till you take the plunge?
Oh, I know there are hidden depths. And by reality I include those depths that science can't explore.

you are looking at it from outside. you seem to say you have experienced people who have taken hallucinogens and dont like what you see. and thus have no qualms about them being sent to jail. for me that is obscene. truly obscene. if you knew the experience you would realize why i feel like that. it is spiritual, and full of depth and love.
It's not so much that they peddle their wares like religious fanatics to people who are still on "the outside", but the way they do it and who they target. There's no depth and love in the business, only money. It's the same thing that can go wrong with religion, and anything else. If that experience isn't available through honest means, it shouldn't be checked. And who checks the hallucogenic business? Those with the most money - those who are most successful at it. They are in jail not because they sold a deeper experience, but because they got people in trouble.

They're selling a cheap experience at a tremendous price.

Look, I have a close friend and fellow Christian who tried Ecstasy at a suggestion like yours, so that he could "know" what he was talking about. He took a few precautions, and had the experience. He had great fun describing to everyone how you could move colours and sound as if they were tangible things. He smoked for three years, then stopped one day. He also genuinely considered suicide, and then didn't. I was a thousand kilometres away and about to lose my best friend.

You don't know what's precious until you imagine losing it. I imagined losing hallucogenics, and didn't miss anything. The same with smoking, weed, suicide and prostitutes. In fact, I felt as if I had gained something. Another kind of experience that was even more "deepening", something I wanted to tell people about. Something I could live out passionately, without wondering if I'm missing something, or having to pay some peddler behind the school's bicycle shed for it.

well you dont get potatoes fon nuthin neither. someone goes to the trouble...the effort to get what you want, you sually pay. you dont land them in jail. so i am seeing hypocrisy about all of this

i know someone who is close to me who sells shrooms. there involves an effort and patience picking them, so why NOt sell them, the life he lives is very simple and close to Nature. he also loves stuff like you seem to...in the wilds of Nature

the last pice of your post was a bit hard for me to grok what you mean
I can understand your trepidation about even experimenting with various substances if you experienced seeing your friend get in trouble post Ecstasy. i never personally have never tried Ecstasy, but know many who have.
Ecstasy--the drug, is tricky because OWING to the drug war, people cannot be sure what they are swallowing. Apparently there is no kosher Ecstasy/MDMA anymore, it is all mixed rubbish!
A very VERY moving article i read (which i have in my notes) from the MAPS site concerned a young man who had terminal cancer and was in terrible pain. His partner was despearately agonizing over his suffering and the eventual loss to come. They decided to take MDMA togther. Apparently for that time his pain totally went, and they had SUCH an intimate time togther that it reolved the crisis they had felt. And once he had died, she was much more able to accept her loss due to that deep experience shared.

so you see, like everything, there is good and bad, and inbetween.

I think that nowadays, there is a trend to hate everything that comes from the west and embrace everything that comes from the east. I also think that you all are just suckers with very little individuality just going along for the ride.

frisbinator?...ae you sure you are in the right thread?....if you are, what do you mean?

look, dude or girl, you seem awfully lazy and sarcastic, ANd rude. i have better things to do with my time than try and communicate important insights with people like yourself who assume that showing disrespect will not have its effect

do you understand THAt english?

Lazy? Explain. Sarcastic? Only when you make your posts so idiotic that I can't help myself
:p

You try to communicate? You fail anyway so what's the point. Important insights about Fairy Dust I can pass up.

"assume that showing disrespect will not have its effect"? What?


And no, I barely understand that. Please use better wording.

I apologize for ignoring the thread that I started, unfortunately that's my pattern here, I often don't have enough time to follow up.

Interesting that the main topic of conversation here was not so much the Western love of rationalism, but psychedelic drugs... we do seem to have some pretty strong views on that one way or another.

To re-phrase this, it seems to take an extreme event to break the average Westerner out of the rigid rational mindset that is constructed for him/her from the instant of birth. We are so conditioned to assess everything from the point of view of utility that transcendence is nearly unattainable without some sort of breakthrough event.

One poster way back in this thread wondered about the "usefulness" of a psychedelic experience (or a transcendent experience of any sort, I suppose). I found that viewpoint interesting; it illustrates that we in the West evade the fundamental mystery of birth/death by hiding from it within our logic-facade.

From the point of view of Maslow, we have done a fantastic work here in the West of bulwarking the basic needs, but an extremely poor job of addressing our metaneeds. Once we are fed, clothed and relatively safe, what then? Is that all we need?

Hi watcher....tis nice to have someone who resonates with me. most times i come across differing forms of anti-hallucinogenic attitudes, EVEn from pagans, Grofian Holotropic Breathworkers, people who claim to not need them and can see auras, etc....and so-called religious people, new agers etc
all this reallytells me--without being patronizing--is the success of the drug war propaganda

i differ though from yur use of the word 'transcendence' defining the hallucinogenic experience. i prefer 'Deepening' mostly because, in my study of mythology, and so on, i have seen this emphasis on transcendence coming from all of the patriarchal religions, and philosophies, and the new ageers, and the transpersonal community. so i want to go DEEP.....down rather than up. tho i dont exclude 'up'. its just i see it as more a two way deepening at the same time....in that the deeper you go, the more you have to see the Dark as well as the Light. whereas most people focus on 'en-lighten'ment'

Hello duendy. Words are always a problem when we start trying to talk about "this". At the very best they serve as pointers, indicate a direction; but words usually get in the way. Silence is a very profound form of meditation, ever hear of Meher Baba? He existed for many decades without saying a word; used a letterboard to get ideas across.

<img src="http://www.meherbabainformation.org/images/silentbaba.jpg">

Speech and language form such an essential part of the dualistic structure that supports the Ego that it is hard to imagine doing without them, especially in Western culture. Let's face it, their ultimate purpose is to define/describe/control what is "out there", in the rational mind's endless effort to stay safe.

Whether you choose meditative practice or mescaline, isn't the destination outside the framework of words, at least words in the conventional sense?

well, there are differnt ways of USING languages.......for example we--English/Americans/Europeans (because english is quite well used) tend to use nouns a lot to explain verbs. whereas some indigenous languages dont do that. they use verbs, and this must affect their feeling-beingness

one thing i VERY much noticed on my VERy first Trip on LSd when 15, was the extraordinary gulf between the spken word and what body language was doing. This was an observation of people who weren't themselves Trippin at a party i was at. i was sat on a couch and observing them as the hallucinogen gained momentum. i found it hysterically funny

i have noticed this again and again, both
psychdelicized and 'straight', though of course in the former dimension it is much more pronounced

these insights remind me of other stuff i have researched. for example the Native american experience of their whiteman invaders.....we know of their term 'forked tongue' meaning 'say one thing do another' and ict could also mean what i am talking about too....seeing how body language contradicts spoken word

Also, a very important insight concerning people who have been dagnosed 'mentally ill' by this culture. this subject is very contentious for me....it is a massive subject and is too complex to go into in detail in this thread i would say. to be brief, i do not believe in modern culture's belief in 'mental illness' as they presume it to be biologically caused........just thought i would get that clear before i described next insight

it is to do with people classed as mentally ill being VERY aware of the contradiction between what people say and body language. for me they are really people who are more in touch than the general dull consensus, and are punished in various ways for it

So, yes language has many pitfalls. Heisenberg said that we are 'suspended in language'!