SELF-Realization: When absolutely Nothing Happens
yet what was a rock-solid and certain reality
becomes a Hallucination
in which Nothing Ever Happens.

-- the Living SELF; Eternal and Infinite Sri Birgit Bhagavati-Bhagavan Vishnu Fukkamee Swami

I don't get how a hallucination can be nothingness, then what is hallucinating if not something thats happening?.

actually even if you are hallucinating and think that a snake looks like a rope, both rope and snakes actually exist ... its simply a case of mistaken identity
:)

a rock-solid and certain reality becomes a Hallucination in which Nothing Ever Happens.

During my hallucinations a whole bunch of shit happens! Perhaps you just don't hallucinate in the right way.

During my hallucinations a whole bunch of shit happens! Perhaps you just don't hallucinate in the right way.

suggestions?
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/164808/

When I was younger I tried LSD a few times and I never really saw anything everything just changed colour alot and shiney things looked extra shiney, graffiti moved a little and looked wierd. My hands were interesting and freaked me out a bit and I kept hearing sounds distorted.

My imagination is better sober I think.

Peace.

I tried LSD a few times and I never really saw anything everything just changed colour alotYou probably didn't have real LSD, or it wasn't 100 mics.

A trip usually takes about 3 days to come down completely from.
(Not that I'd know that from personal experience, of course)

I don't get how a hallucination can be nothingness, then what is hallucinating if not something thats happening?.

things appear to happen in a movie, but it's just the pictures that are changing. the pictures are not changing either, they just appear to be. and there is also no hallucination happening, because the hallucination is a hallucination (it isn't real).

and if everything is hallucination, if nothing is real, then everything must be nothing (reality). self-realization is catch 22: when you "realize" that there is nothing to realize.

No, it's more like realising who you are, that all the time you've been looking for something you already have, or you're already home. Or like seeing what colour you really are, just another shade in an endless sea of colours everywhere, and all the different colours come from the same colour. Or how you're just a note in a big chorus, a single clear note that is of course, a myriad of different notes and sounds. If you know it isn't your imagination, sort of thing.

Something like that.

You probably didn't have real LSD, or it wasn't 100 mics.

A trip usually takes about 3 days to come down completely from.
(Not that I'd know that from personal experience, of course)

Then you've never tripped, personally that is! :p

No, it's more like realising who you are, that all the time you've been looking for something you already have, or you're already home. Or like seeing what colour you really are, just another shade in an endless sea of colours everywhere, and all the different colours come from the same colour. Or how you're just a note in a big chorus, a single clear note that is of course, a myriad of different notes and sounds. If you know it isn't your imagination, sort of thing.

Something like that.

Boy you really don't know what you are talking about but you really want to make people think you do. Why is that anyway?

Why is what?

Why is it that you think I like to think something, or why is it that you've gone to the trouble to let everyone know?

SELF-Realization: When absolutely Nothing Happens
yet what was a rock-solid and certain reality
becomes a Hallucination
in which Nothing Ever Happens.

-- the Living SELF; Eternal and Infinite Sri Birgit Bhagavati-Bhagavan Vishnu Fukkamee Swami

I really like that quote.

You probably didn't have real LSD, or it wasn't 100 mics.

A trip usually takes about 3 days to come down completely from.
(Not that I'd know that from personal experience, of course)

maybe cause 100 mics is baby and 3 days is very unusual

maybe cause 100 mics is baby and 3 days is very unusualOr maybe there's a lot of people who have never actually tried 100 or 200 micrograms of LSD-25?

Maybe a lot of people get told that's what they just got ahold of, but maybe it's some kind of marketing hype?

Or maybe there's a lot of people who have never actually tried 100 or 200 micrograms of LSD-25?

Maybe a lot of people get told that's what they just got ahold of, but maybe it's some kind of marketing hype?

I have never known anyone that took 100 to 200 mics of LSD 25 or any other LSD and last for more than 12 hours. Your facts do not add up to what reality is. Again , I believe that you have never taken LSD and all your doing is trying to impress people that you have. Well, you dodn't imnpress me because I know better so go ahaead and tell your tales and make up your stories for whatever reasons you have. But people will only have to look up LSD on the net to find the truth.

DMT is so much better than LSD, at least for 'self-realization'.

I have never known anyone that took 100 to 200 mics of LSD 25 or any other LSD and last for more than 12 hours. 200 mics should be a pretty good 12-18 hours. But what about the next 24-36 hours. You're saying after 12 hours, regardless, you're back on ground zero? Bullshit, dude.

What are you talking about? What's this "they will find the truth" crap? The only way to "find out" what 100 or 200 or 1000 mics of LSD will do to you is to ingest it - get it into your bloodstream somehow.


You "believe" whatever you like, too. Like I give a stuff.

Would you take another place to see what they say, or are they full of shit too?

"The precise mechanism by which LSD alters perceptions is still unclear. Evidence from laboratory studies suggests that LSD, like hallucinogenic plants, acts on certain groups of serotonin receptors designated the 5-HT2 receptors, and that its effects are most prominent in two brain regions: One is the cerebral cortex, an area involved in mood, cognition, and perception; the other is the locus ceruleus, which receives sensory signals from all areas of the body and has been described as the brain's "novelty detector" for important external stimuli.

LSD's effects typically begin within 30 to 90 minutes of ingestion and may last as long as 12 hours. Users refer to LSD and other hallucinogenic experiences as "trips" and to the acute adverse experiences as "bad trips." Although most LSD trips include both pleasant and unpleasant aspects, the drug's effects are unpredictable and may vary with the amount ingested and the user's personality, mood, expectations, and surroundings."

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/lsd/f/lsd_faq04.htm




"How long does the feeling last?
The effects of LSD come on gradually within an hour of taking the drug, "peak" at two to four hours and gradually taper off, with the entire trip lasting up to 12 hours. The intensity of the effect depends on the size of the dose.

Some users feel let down or fatigued for 12 to 24 hours after the trip is over. "


http://www.camh.net/About_Addiction_Mental_Health/Drug_and_Addiction_Information/lsd_dyk.html

So, because some idiot says, "it takes about 3 days to come down completely", another idiot then assumes what, exactly?
You're going to have to take it from here.
Presumably you know people who do this on a Sunday night and are bright and early at work on a Monday then?

FFS dude, it's LSD. Albert Hoffman took a test dose of 0.2 mg of the stuff, expecting a mild reaction.
He took a while to get back on planet earth, right?

P.S. another really stupid thing to call the after-effects, that can take a day or so to fade, is: "a refractory period".

Smoke that.

SELF-Realization: When absolutely Nothing Happens
yet what was a rock-solid and certain reality
becomes a Hallucination
in which Nothing Ever Happens.

-- the Living SELF; Eternal and Infinite Sri Birgit Bhagavati-Bhagavan Vishnu Fukkamee Swami

Well, the realization of the self, is also a principle of consciousnes i brought forward not long ago on another site.

It seems that consciousness is not actually real, unless the system itself can reflect on their own existences. As yet of discovered, only three other animals in the Kingdom of the World share this.

The Dolphin, the Elephant, and the Ape family have a ''Self-Reflection Principle,'' as i named it.

Presumably you know people who do this on a Sunday night and are bright and early at work on a Monday then?

No, they usually did it on either Friday or Saturday night. But your claim was 3days they were "tripping" which I was in disagreement with. Then you said I was full of shit but I presented facts that proved my point making you seem to not understand what you were talking about. Instead of just agreeing with me you can't even say that you were wrong, why is that?:shrug:

But your claim was 3days they were "tripping" which I was in disagreement with.I'm in disagreement too. That isn't what I said at all.

This is what I actually posted: "A trip usually takes about 3 days to come down completely from."
You appear to have come to some sort of conclusion about what the above sentence is saying.
Do you know what the word "refractory" means?

Yeah, Ive never had a trip last more than about 20 hours max. Probably somewhat less really. I dont know anyone who tripped for three days on one dose of ANY size. LSD like any drug metabolizes at a certain rate.

It could last 3 days though, if you took a dose once then 24 hours later then 48 hours later.

My actual recollections of ingesting the stuff (California clear light, say) was that I was 'peaking' in about 2-3 hours. That was about the only consistent effect; the next 18-24 or 48 hours were 'fuzzy'. Discussions with other users of the stuff reflected that mostly, the 2-3 hour buildup (presumably as the bloodstream level of LSD got to a peak), was not unique to my individual experience of it.

I was usually 'down' after 24 hours, but as I've said (once or twice in this thread), there seemed to be a definite recovery, or refractory period.

The 'after-effect' effect is very common, I believe (not that I'm a pharmacist, or a physiologist, or biochemist).
But hey, believe what you want.

I dont know anyone who tripped for three days on one dose of ANY size. LSD like any drug metabolizes at a certain rate.
I do. I know people who tripped for days (nine days one dude reckoned). They dropped a LOT of LSD (for some reason) to achieve this.

Probably they had a massive trip for ~6-12 hours, then tripped for a day or two, then gradually came back to earth over a week, say. I don't really know but I imagine dropping 10-20 trips wouldn't be like dropping 1 trip.

Would you take another place to see what they say, or are they full of shit too?

"The precise mechanism by which LSD alters perceptions is still unclear. Evidence from laboratory studies suggests that LSD, like hallucinogenic plants, acts on certain groups of serotonin receptors designated the 5-HT2 receptors, and that its effects are most prominent in two brain regions: One is the cerebral cortex, an area involved in mood, cognition, and perception; the other is the locus ceruleus, which receives sensory signals from all areas of the body and has been described as the brain's "novelty detector" for important external stimuli.

LSD's effects typically begin within 30 to 90 minutes of ingestion and may last as long as 12 hours. Users refer to LSD and other hallucinogenic experiences as "trips" and to the acute adverse experiences as "bad trips." Although most LSD trips include both pleasant and unpleasant aspects, the drug's effects are unpredictable and may vary with the amount ingested and the user's personality, mood, expectations, and surroundings."

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/lsd/f/lsd_faq04.htm




"How long does the feeling last?
The effects of LSD come on gradually within an hour of taking the drug, "peak" at two to four hours and gradually taper off, with the entire trip lasting up to 12 hours. The intensity of the effect depends on the size of the dose.

Some users feel let down or fatigued for 12 to 24 hours after the trip is over. "


http://www.camh.net/About_Addiction_Mental_Health/Drug_and_Addiction_Information/lsd_dyk.html

That's a description of the bulk of people's reactions. Some people never come down: IOW they are permanently changed - some simply eccentric, some damaged. Some people experience much more than the top end that is listed above. You are talking about radically changing perceptions, something the brain can do on its own and does on occasion once the pattern is shown to it.

Flashbacks, for example, do not happen when LSD magically reaches a threshhold in the blood years later. The brain can repeat states it has been 'taught'. For both good and ill.

When we dream we think it is real, and then when we wake up we recognize that it was all a dream. In the dream, if we are in it, we think we are there climbing mountains, running from someone etc, but it was all illusionary yet seemed so real. And, was there any substance to this dream - was there any solidity to it - no. So, can it not be then that when we see what we really are, we see that it was all illusionary, an hallucination made up of nothing substanstantial? Just nothingness!

When I dream, I don't think my dreams are "real". I'd say my unconscious mind is aware that it's dreaming.
It could explain why we don't generally act out what we dream as we dream it.

Obviously when we wake up we know that the dream is not real, but while we are dreaming, are we thinking 'I am dreaming'? Mostly not! So my point is what is the difference between seeing the dream as real while we are asleep and seeing this 'awake' reality as real while we 'sleep' (I say 'sleep' because we are not truely awake to our true self).

If your dreams took off where they left off, just like our 'waking' state seems to do, how would you know the difference between the dream and waking state?

How could the 'unconscious mind' ever be aware of anything. 'Unconscious' implies 'over and out'.

So I'm seeing a lot of ignorance about entheogens.

Get over to http://www.erowid.org and educate yourselves.

I also recommend http://www.maps.org

Obviously when we wake up we know that the dream is not real, but while we are dreaming, are we thinking 'I am dreaming'? Mostly not! So my point is what is the difference between seeing the dream as real while we are asleep and seeing this 'awake' reality as real while we 'sleep' (I say 'sleep' because we are not truely awake to our true self).

If your dreams took off where they left off, just like our 'waking' state seems to do, how would you know the difference between the dream and waking state?

How could the 'unconscious mind' ever be aware of anything. 'Unconscious' implies 'over and out'.

At this point in my life I am almost always aware that I am dreaming while I am dreaming. This isnt to say that the sensory "substance" if you can call it that, is notably different from the sensory substance I experience while awake, its just that a certain "qualityness" of dream reality almost alway comes through, noticeably so. I suspect at least part of the difference comes from the obvious inconsistencies that exist in dreaming compared to waking.
Even if your dreams started where they left off each time you were to dream, youd know it because youd always wake up to your normal waking experience in between dreams. The reason we can say that dreams are insubstantial and illusory with ease but by contrast we stuggle to say the same about our waking experience of things is because from the waking experience our only escape from what we believe to be real and solid is in dreaming or maybe death. In other words there is no greater or more substancial reality to return to allow us to view our waking reality as being without substance or concern. Apparently anyways.

Its said that certain Eastern traditions and religions that utilize meditative means can lead us to a space from which our real illusory nature is apparent, exist.
One can not really know whether this is possibly though, without seriously investigating these methods for one's self.

onemoment how would you know the difference between the dream and waking state?

Doesn't matter.
Always treat the reality you find youself in as real.
Always do non destructive reality testing.

Think you can fly? Lift off from the ground or jump off a chair.

Remember, we never completely wake up out of our dreams.

Remember, we never completely wake up out of our dreams.

why do you say that?

Swarm: Always treat the reality you find youself in as real.
Always do non destructive reality testing.

Here's a perfect example of advice that means nothing. What are people meant to do with this? Of course people treat the situation they are in as real, even an 'enlightened' being, one who recognizes his/her oneness, is going to jump out of the way if someone throws a snake at them. The question is though, is it 'me' who is making the decision to act? How can it be if it is all the one?

A more beneficial pointer to our oneness is to see for ourselves what in us has never changed, regardless of the ever changing experiences of life. Aren't we always aware? And are there any parts to this awareness?

And what the hell does 'always do non destructive reality testing' mean? Quite apart from the fact that this direction could never lead anyone to 'enlightenment' (more appropriately referred to as re-cognition of our true essence), what the hell is someone to make of this statement?

Here's a perfect example of advice that means nothing. What are people meant to do with this? Of course people treat the situation they are in as real, even an 'enlightened' being, one who recognizes his/her oneness, is going to jump out of the way if someone throws a snake at them. The question is though, is it 'me' who is making the decision to act? How can it be if it is all the one?Wouldn't this argument make the difference between advice that 'means nothing' and advice that people can 'do something with' rather moot?


A more beneficial pointer to our oneness is to see for ourselves what in us has never changed
are there 'parts' that have?

And what does it matter to the 'oneness' this advice you are giving?

Simon, in your first question are you saying that you cannot do something with what I have written? I promise I would answer your question if I understood what exactly you were asking.

As to your question 'are there 'parts' that have?' changed - I would have to answer 'No'. Nothing in effect changes, it just appears to change. Those changing things to which I refer are the thoughts we have, the body we have, the changing experiences etc. But that awareness that is ever there, can you divide that? Hasn't that always remained the same as far back as you can remember?


And what does it matter to the 'oneness' this advice you are giving?
You are right, nothing matters to the oneness - there is no concern in the awareness that is always and ever there. Everything is just appearing. It is like you are a character in a hologram movie with sensations and feelings included and the sadness/happiness that is felt is not felt by a person because you are not the person you are the awareness in which it all appears(well it is felt by a person in a way in that the experiences are of an 'apparent' body and mind). If it is not you that things are happening to, then there is just the experiencing. Nothing matter because there is no-one for it to matter to.

Simon, in your first question are you saying that you cannot do something with what I have written? I promise I would answer your question if I understood what exactly you were asking.
In a sense I am saying 'What can we do with anything, including what you have written, if what you have written is true?

What I bolded below seem to continue pointing to a certain fruitlessness in advice, 'good' or 'bad', workable with or not.


As to your question 'are there 'parts' that have?' changed - I would have to answer 'No'. Nothing in effect changes, it just appears to change. Those changing things to which I refer are the thoughts we have, the body we have, the changing experiences etc. But that awareness that is ever there, can you divide that? Hasn't that always remained the same as far back as you can remember?And then referring to the second bolded portion above, the words of both swarm and you (and me) would be exactly equivalent to these thoughts.



If it is not you that things are happening to, then there is just the experiencing. Nothing matter because there is no-one for it to matter to. And so, again, what matters whether his advice is something someone can use?

Can you not see the irony of one part of the oneness telling another part of the oneness that there is something wrong with the thoughts 'he' is writing down for 'others'?

I don't really hold to this oneness doctrine, at least not in the dominant way you seem to, and so what I experience from a different perspective on 'things' is that there is something ludicrous about correcting him, given what you say as part of that correction.

Simon: so what I experience from a different perspective on 'things' is that there is something ludicrous about correcting him, given what you say as part of that correction
Of course, that is the paradox that is so often referred to when people think about non-duality. Activity doesn't cease just because someone becomes clear that they are not the body and not the mind - that they are just the awareness - 'Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.'

So, yes, I am involved in an argument of logic firstly, but ultimately what I am pointing to is that awareness which is undeniable, unrefutable, ineffable and indescribable. Can you ever say 'I am not aware'? We can argue what else you may be but that awareness must be there for any argument to appear. No?

So what I am pointing to is not a matter of opinion or 'holding to this oneness doctrine' as you put it. It is evident now.

Don't you see that the truth we think in words is all our 'own' devising and assumes that just because we have named something we know it. So this is a computer - but what, really, is it?

I said above that nothing matters to the oneness. I could also say from the point of view of an individual that it does matter - it matters to the one who sees himself as an individual and thinks he/she is suffering. And in the play, the appearance, there is another individual that points and says 'Suffering is not necessary and this is how you might end it.'

From the point of view of the individual still seeking answers it does matter whether the advice being given is useful or not, don't you think?

Of course, that is the paradox that is so often referred to when people think about non-duality. Activity doesn't cease just because someone becomes clear that they are not the body and not the mind - that they are just the awareness - 'Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.' Pretty concrete stuff. Not all these heady hairsplitting and breaking things up into pieces with competing mental acts.


So what I am pointing to is not a matter of opinion or 'holding to this oneness doctrine' as you put it. It is evident now.

Don't you see that the truth we think in words is all our 'own' devising and assumes that just because we have named something we know it. So this is a computer - but what, really, is it?
yeah, well, I keep getting the sense that chopping wood and carrying water would be a hell of lot better in your system.


I said above that nothing matters to the oneness. I could also say from the point of view of an individual that it does matter - it matters to the one who sees himself as an individual and thinks he/she is suffering. And in the play, the appearance, there is another individual that points and says 'Suffering is not necessary and this is how you might end it.'

From the point of view of the individual still seeking answers it does matter whether the advice being given is useful or not, don't you think? You are breaking off a part of your posited oneness and using it to justify actions that involving breaking up this oneness and above getting into disagreements with swarm - who it seems has a similar philosophy.

I can't see how this will help end suffering if you are correct about its origins.

But I'll leave it at that. Somehow I hoped you would at least find what you were doing funny even if you still felt it was good to disagree with swarm and tell him about oneness. But without a shared sense of irony.....

take care. I'll leave you to swarm. It's a good name, it's a set of 'things' and it is a verb. So I mean it both ways.

Swarm
Always treat the reality you find yourself in as real.
Always do non destructive reality testing.


onemoment
Here's a perfect example of advice that means nothing. What are people meant to do with this? Of course people treat the situation they are in as real

That is an assumption which is not always true.

If it means nothing to you personally, just file it away.

There are people for whom it means something and if you explore your consciousness to its limits, it will come to mean something to you as well. There are various ways in which meditation, hypnosis and other techniques can result in states where you might be tempted to ignore that advice. My recommendation is: Always treat the reality you find yourself in as real. Always do non destructive reality testing.


The question is though, is it 'me' who is making the decision to act? How can it be if it is all the one?

A more beneficial pointer to our oneness is to see for ourselves what in us has never changed, regardless of the ever changing experiences of life. Aren't we always aware? And are there any parts to this awareness?

I’m not posing this as a theoretical matter. It is pragmatic advice.


And what the hell does 'always do non destructive reality testing' mean?

Simple when testing your assumptions about reality like: I can fly, I’m invulnerable, I can pass through solid objects, I’m god, etc.; do not use a means which is destructive like: jumping in front of a car, jumping off the roof, running full force into a brick wall, destroying the universe.

Instead choose non destructive tests like: poking yourself with a needle, jumping up from the ground, resting your hand on the wall and trying to push through, leaving the universe alone.


Quite apart from the fact that this direction could never lead anyone to 'enlightenment' (more appropriately referred to as re-cognition of our true essence), what the hell is someone to make of this statement?

You have good focus, but there is more to life than just leading to enlightenment.

Enlightenment is more than one thing; if you're enlightened about your personal state of enlightenment. then you're aware that you aren't really enlightened (yet).
If you are truly enlightened (whatever that means), then you aren't especially aware of it, because you don't need to be, just like you don't need to be aware that oxygen goes into your lungs when you draw a breath. You still get the oxygen - even if you don't know what oxygen is.

It's not an arrival, it's a journey.

Vkothii: It's not an arrival, it's a journey.

'Enlightenment' may appear to be a journey but once it is 'reached' there is knowing that it has always been so, that there is nothing other than enlightenment. Enlightenment is a re-cognition of your true essence ('re' because it is already something that is always there that you come to cognize).

You do not become aware of it, it is the awareness. Does that awareness you have have any parts? Can you say 'I am not aware'? No, that awareness must be there for you to even say 'I am not aware'. That awareness is what you come to identify with or that you come to re-cognize as your true essence.

That awareness that is always and ever there is missed - it is like the wind that cannot be grasped or known except for by the rustling leaf or moving flag on a pole etc.

What you have written is very confusing and confused. If you are really interested in what is being pointed at in teaching on enlightenment then check out the free podcasts on urbangurucafe.com. The 'teachers' on there won't lead you astray and they tell you right from the start, 'You are already what you seek. You need no practices and it takes no time. In fact, it is only 'now' that you can see this. Any thoughts of gaining something in the future is taking you away from re-cognizing your true nature because the thoughts of the mind are masking what is already there.'

Vkothii: It's not an arrival, it's a journey.

'Enlightenment' may appear to be a journey but once it is 'reached' there is knowing that it has always been so, that there is nothing other than enlightenment. Enlightenment is a re-cognition of your true essence ('re' because it is already something that is always there that you come to cognize).

You do not become aware of it, it is the awareness. Does that awareness you have have any parts? Can you say 'I am not aware'? No, that awareness must be there for you to even say 'I am not aware'. That awareness is what you come to identify with or that you come to re-cognize as your true essence.

That awareness that is always and ever there is missed - it is like the wind that cannot be grasped or known except for by the rustling leaf or moving flag on a pole etc.

What you have written is very confusing and confused. If you are really interested in what is being pointed at in teaching on enlightenment then check out the free podcasts on urbangurucafe.com. The 'teachers' on there won't lead you astray and they tell you right from the start, 'You are already what you seek. You need no practices and it takes no time. In fact, it is only 'now' that you can see this. Any thoughts of gaining something in the future is taking you away from re-cognizing your true nature because the thoughts of the mind are masking what is already there.'[/QUOTE]

onemoment
'Enlightenment' may appear to be a journey but once it is 'reached' there is knowing that it has always been so, that there is nothing other than enlightenment. Enlightenment is a re-cognition of your true essence ('re' because it is already something that is always there that you come to cognize).

This sounds like you are repeating another’s words.

The funny thing about it is something said by one who is speaking from their own realization doesn’t work right repeated by someone who is not also speaking from their own realization. There is a certain je ne sais pas which is lost.

Swarm: The funny thing about it is something said by one who is speaking from their own realization doesn’t work right repeated by someone who is not also speaking from their own realization. There is a certain je ne sais pas which is lost.


Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. It depends on why it does not work right.

If it doesn't work right because you are clearer than the other person, then that 'I do not know' (because it does not ring a bell) is legitimate. Then you have to trust with what rings true for you.

But if it is 'lost' because you are totally engaged in a story of time and it's got to be my way or the highway - then you need to try harder to understand. Be more earnest and sincere and ask to have it explained.

Or, you can just stop and smell a rose or admire that beautiful flower.