I think that The U.S. forces and their allies should pull off Afghanistan soon .
What do you think folks ?.

Yes, and the high command ought to be executed (US).

Yes, unless they have lost all sense of survival

Yes, unless nothing. Khalasniba!

No, it would become a haven (again) for bad guys. We need to win this one.

No, it would become a haven (again) for bad guys. We need to win this one.

It's already filled with the bad guys called the US Army.

And the bad guys called Islamic extremists.

Both need a good hangin'.

No, it would become a haven (again) for bad guys. We need to win this one.
The U.S. and their allies NATO are full of bad guys and bad gals.....:wallbang:

That's badass, there's a difference.

Yes, and the high command ought to be executed (US).

That would include all the former as well as present congressmen and senators as well as the old and new administrations. That's a lot of people to execute, Norsefire. The executioner would be busy for weeks or longer.

Baron Max

That's badass, there's a difference.

A murderer is a murderer regardless to nationality, religion, race, color, wealth, health and life style .

A murderer is a murderer regardless to nationality, religion, race, color, wealth, health and life style .

Yeah, but there's a big difference between a murder and killing.

Baron Max

Yeah, but there's a big difference between a murder and killing.

Baron Max
Killing under the orders of G.W. Bush, Ronald Rumesfelf and Dick Cheney is actually pure terrorism at 100% .

Killing under the orders of G.W. Bush, Ronald Rumesfelf and Dick Cheney is actually pure terrorism at 100% .

Just because those idiots were wrong about Iraq does not make the war in Afghanistan wrong. The tribal areas in Pakistan have become the haven of our enemies, and they would readily move into Afghanistan if that became on option.

9/11 tragic events were an inside job to justify to the sheeple and the world two unfair, unjust, and unnecessary wars . The U.S. and its allies NATO are in both Iraq and Afghanistan for three reasons :
1 : The oil .
2 : The PERMANENT military bases .
3 : To help Israel against the Muslims regimes in the Middle East .

That would include all the former as well as present congressmen and senators as well as the old and new administrations. That's a lot of people to execute, Norsefire. The executioner would be busy for weeks or longer.

Baron Max

Hey, it creates jobs:)

Hey, it creates jobs:)

It is really very painful to see those who kill innocent men, innocent women and innocent children free and enjoying life as if they did nothing wrong .
Although I believe in both pacifism and humanism, I also believe that the laws should be universal and all CRIMINALS are treated swiftly according to the laws of the land . :) .

Humanism doesn't apply to criminals. They have no right to life, and justice is their execution.

I doubt the Americans are going anywhere real soon


In the forbidding Afghan desert, US engineers are carving out a sprawling military camp as part of a dramatic American troop build-up designed to confront Taliban insurgents.

The desolate plain in southern Helmand province that Afghans call the "desert of death" has turned into a hive of frenetic activity, underscoring President Barack Obama's decision to expand the US military commitment to the war.

Defence Secretary Robert Gates flew into Camp Leatherneck on Thursday to get a first-hand look as dozens of bulldozers kicked up clouds of dust and soldiers swung hammers in searing heat.

Some of the newly arrived soldiers at the camp told Gates they were still waiting for radios and other equipment to arrive.

Gates promised to look into the problem and said later at a news conference in Kabul that moving such a large number of troops and so much equipment was a "logistical challenge" in a country with a shortage of airports and major roads.

Every day military planes ferry in more marines and soldiers to the camp that has emerged out of the desert seemingly overnight, protected by miles of sand walls topped with barbed wire along with rows of barrier walls.

"It's been real busy," said Captain Jeff Boroway from the 25th Naval Construction regiment.

"This place was desert at the end of January. I mean nothing. And now you've got a 443-acre (179-hectare) secure facility," he told reporters.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iQsdQAuKzZl3hMgVzG60jVJVgRiQ

There is something else going on here.

Humanism doesn't apply to criminals. They have no right to life, and justice is their execution.
I agree.....:cheers: .

9/11 tragic events were an inside job to justify to the sheeple and the world two unfair, unjust, and unnecessary wars . The U.S. and its allies NATO are in both Iraq and Afghanistan for three reasons :
1 : The oil .
2 : The PERMANENT military bases .
3 : To help Israel against the Muslims regimes in the Middle East .

Based on what evidence?

America shouln't be there for as soon as they leave, as with Iraq, there's going to be more problems for the people that are remaining. It is a no win situation in the long run unless troops are left there forever to insure some kind of order and peace. But who's order and peace?

Based on what evidence?

Based on reality and the truth as seen by everyone .
Do NOT expect politicians to tell you their hidden agenda in their bubbling speeches .
Most policies are done in closed doors with a complete secrecy .
The speeches are just a mere public relation scheme . :) .

America shouldn't be there for as soon as they leave, as with Iraq, there's going to be more problems for the people that are remaining. It is a no win situation in the long run unless troops are left there forever to insure some kind of order and peace. But who's order and peace?

In fact America created problems for both Iraq and Afghanistan .
1 : The U.S. and its allies should leave Afghanistan and let the Afghans live their lives according to their traditions, customs and beliefs .
2 : The U.s. and its followers NATO should leave Iraq and let the Iraqis sort out their mess created by foreigners like the C.I.A. and MOSSAD who want the complete destruction of Iraq to obtain oil, military bases and to help Israel rule the Middle East like it is ruling poor Palestine .
P.S : The U.S. and its NATO followers want PERMANENT military bases in both Iraq and Afghanistan for strategic purposes .

Based on reality and the truth as seen by everyone .
Do NOT expect politicians to tell you their hidden agenda in their bubbling speeches .
Most policies are done in closed doors with a complete secrecy .
The speeches are just a mere public relation scheme . :) .

The reality and truth seen by the witnesses to September 11 do not support your claims apparently the witnesses are not part of your "everyone".

The reality and truth seen by the witnesses to September 11 do not support your claims apparently the witnesses are not part of your "everyone".


So you are happy to see millions of lives destroyed, billions of dollars wasted.....etc..?!.
Add to that 9/11 tragic events were an inside job to achieve support for two illegal and horrifying wars .

So you are happy to see millions of lives destroyed, billions of dollars wasted.....etc..?!.

In America, we have this thing called "voting" .....and we, the American people, voted into office a president who vowed to continue the fight in Afghanistan, and even vowed to send in more troops. So, ...in answer to your question, the obvious answer is ...YES!

The Afghans could have stopped the whole thing before it started by handing over Obama bin Laden and his al-Queda group. They refused ....so fuck 'em.

Baron Max

The reality and truth seen by the witnesses to September 11 do not support your claims apparently the witnesses are not part of your "everyone".

Which witnesses? What did they see? The only witnesses I know of are the ones who saw the five dancing Israelis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw

Which witnesses? What did they see? The only witnesses I know of are the ones who saw the five dancing Israelis.

SAM, don't you think that it's a little silly to be talking about that issue at this late date? I mean, the US has been in Afghanistan now for umpty-eleven years and have killed 452,678,295 innocent Afghans who were only celebrating weddings. And that's not even counting the two or three Taliban bad guys that we might have killed. A little late to be worried about the witnesses to anything, don'tcha think?

Baron Max

Not at all, if someone actually bothered to find out what happened on 9/11, they could stop chasing phantoms halfway around the world and take care of their disintegrating society instead.

Instead of assuming that people who live like this:

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/af2_07_17/a02_19251231.jpg

are a danger to them.

Instead of assuming that people who live like this ......snip.... are a danger to them.

Well, those people, who live in those hovels, have been killing American soldiers and Marines since we got to Afghanistan .....so, yes, they are a danger to us. ...especially when they're celebrating weddings! :D

Baron Max

Well, those people, who live in those hovels, have been killing American soldiers and Marines since we got to Afghanistan .....so, yes, they are a danger to us. ...especially when they're celebrating weddings! :D

Baron Max

Yeah they're picking up western democracy. Previously, they still lived by their ancient notions of hospitality where any guest was to be protected with their lives, even if it was an enemy who had taken asylum with them. Once they "learn" what real modern democracy is, they'll emulate the secular dutchbat and hand over anyone who takes asylum with them to be massacred. After all, honour is such an outdated undemocratic value.:rolleyes:

.... Previously, they still lived by their ancient notions of hospitality where any guest was to be protected with their lives, even if it was an enemy who had taken asylum with them. ....

Now they see that that was a pretty damned bad choice, huh? ...LOL!

Protecting old Obama bin Laden and his boys, and it brought the horrendous might of the US military down on their heads! No wonder they're seeking to become more westernized! After the US killed 473,812,493 innocent Afghans, they're probably thinking that protecting anyone is a bad idea! :D

Baron Max

Canada's out in 2011. Hopefully out of NATO in 2012 and NORAD in 2013. Friends like that , there is no need for enemies.

While the boys are off in afganifuck, everyone from Danes to Americans to Russians are legally or illegally raping our resources and completely ignoring our sovereign waters, land and mineral rights. Canada seriously needs its military at home and at least capable of giving some of these belligerents a fucking hassle.

Canada's out in 2011. Hopefully out of NATO in 2012 and NORAD in 2013. Friends like that , there is no need for enemies.

While the boys are off in afganifuck, everyone from Danes to Americans to Russians are legally or illegally raping our resources and completely ignoring our sovereign waters, land and mineral rights. Canada seriously needs its military at home and at least capable of giving some of these belligerents a fucking hassle.

Countries like Canada, France, U.K. , Italy....etc are spending billions of dollars in Afghanistan and having their troops killed there in order to kiss the ass of uncle SAM in Washington . Also many nations are helping the U.S. in both Iraq and Afghanistan instead of helping their own people at home .
Only in few days some Canadian and French troops were killed in Afghanistan and the question is : why did they die for ?. Of course they died because of an ill politics by their ill regimes back home......:crazy::crazy:

Not at all, if someone actually bothered to find out what happened on 9/11, they could stop chasing phantoms halfway around the world and take care of their disintegrating society instead.

Instead of assuming that people who live like this:

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/af2_07_17/a02_19251231.jpg

are a danger to them.


Yes these are the people who are really a huge danger to the U.S. and its allies NATO . Wake up folks. Killing INNOCENT people is not a joke at all .
The U.S. and its allies went through a barrage of a manipulative, deceiving propaganda to start two very sad wars . Their goals are mainly :
A : The oil .
B : The PERMANENT military bases .
C : To help Israel dominate the whole Middle East .

Please do not expect politicians to tell you how decisions of wars are started in closed doors . If they tell you they will be hanged by any court of law .

...
Instead of assuming that people who live like this:



are a danger to them.

That's racist.

That's racist.
Racist...?. Why...?. :) .

Killing under the orders of G.W. Bush, Ronald Rumesfelf and Dick Cheney is actually pure terrorism at 100% .
Well said Mike. :)

Just because those idiots were wrong about Iraq does not make the war in Afghanistan wrong. The tribal areas in Pakistan have become the haven of our enemies, and they would readily move into Afghanistan if that became on option.
You HAD no REAL enemies before you started plundering the ME. And NO, the criminal element that perpetrated 9/11 were NOT the citizens of Afghanistan or Iraq, that are NOW your self created enemy.

The Afghans could have stopped the whole thing before it started by handing over Obama bin Laden and his al-Queda group. They refused ....so fuck 'em.
For the quadrillionth time, all the Afghans asked for was the EVIDENCE incriminating Bin Laden. Of course, this was not forthcoming. This whole debacle could have been avoided if Bush did not want to play John Wayne.

Racist...?. Why...?. :) .

Those people can't be just as dangerous as us? Why not? Aren't they capable of anything other humans are capable of?

For the quadrillionth time, all the Afghans asked for was the EVIDENCE incriminating Bin Laden. Of course, this was not forthcoming. ....

And look what it cost the people of Afghanistan. Was Obama bin Laden worth that much to the people of Afghanistan? And even now?

And remember, they could have given bin Laden up after the war started ...but they didn't. They chose to watch their countrymen be killed in a war that they could have stopped at any time.

The Afghans have no one to blame but themselves. They wanted it this way, so they should quit complaining.

Baron Max

Those people can't be just as dangerous as us? Why not? Aren't they capable of anything other humans are capable of?

The super power is the U.S.A. and NOT afghanistan who can not even find enough food and enough clean water .

The super power is the U.S.A. and NOT afghanistan who can not even find enough food and enough clean water.

Those same poor, poor Afghans killed three more of our soldiers and Marines this weekend!! They ain't to be pitied, they're to be killed for fighting and killing our troops. The Afghans wanted the war, they asked for it, they could stop it if they wanted to .....they continue to fight and kill our troops. Fuck 'em.

Baron Max

And look what it cost the people of Afghanistan. Was Obama bin Laden worth that much to the people of Afghanistan? And even now?
By the same token. Was Afghanistan worth that much to the people of the US? To the gov? And now, when the money could have, over and again, paid for a functional health care system? What is the point NOW of the US even being there?

And remember, they could have given bin Laden up after the war started ...but they didn't. They chose to watch their countrymen be killed in a war that they could have stopped at any time.
Nonsense. Bush wanted to invade and occupy. Period.

The Afghans have no one to blame but themselves. They wanted it this way, so they should quit complaining.
That is what your gov would have you believe. The INNOCENT Afghan people NEVER wanted this. The Taliban NEVER wanted this. And they WILL prevail. Period.

Those same poor, poor Afghans killed three more of our soldiers and Marines this weekend!! They ain't to be pitied, they're to be killed for fighting and killing our troops. The Afghans wanted the war, they asked for it, they could stop it if they wanted to .....they continue to fight and kill our troops. Fuck 'em.

Baron Max
The media and the Administration made an excellent job brainwashing the sheeple . Afghanistan did NOT ask for any war let alone a war with the strongest power on earth known as the U.S.A. and backed by NATO and many other wannabees . How many U.S. soldiers died in this country compared to the millions of Afghans who were killed or ended up as refugees in Pakistan, Iran or other countries ??!!.
This is a uselees war that costs billions of dollars and millions of lives . The solution is to the masses to wake up and see the truth as it is and NOT as dictated by the Administration and their deceiful media . Peace for always .

By the same token. Was Afghanistan worth that much to the people of the US? To the gov? ...

Obviously it was and is .....we keep funding the war. And in addition to that, our new pres is going to send in more troop so they can killl Afghans faster.

The "innocent" Afghan never wanted this war? Then why don't they get together and stop it? They could do so in ten minutes or so ...maybe sooner.

Baron Max

The media and the Administration made an excellent job brainwashing the sheeple. ...

Well, they did a good job of brainwashing, then. Cause the new pres is sending in more troops and the congress is funding more money.

Y'all blamed Bush before, who are you gonna' blame now?

Baron Max

Obviously it was and is .....we keep funding the war. And in addition to that, our new pres is going to send in more troop so they can killl Afghans faster.

The "innocent" Afghan never wanted this war? Then why don't they get together and stop it? They could do so in ten minutes or so ...maybe sooner.

Baron Max
Hahahah...!.
Keep on funding two unjust wars and let the economy be ZERO....hahaha !.
:crazy::crazy:

To find an answer for this, you must first understand the reasons why you went there in the first place, also you need to know why you are still there, then you need to know what you want change over there, and finally, you must ask yourself if those things really worth remaining there!

Then you will get your answer yourself! But it is more complicated than it sound, as do you REALLY think that you know the REAL reasons why the Army is still in Afghanistan?

What I mean here, is in order to find an answer you must educate yourself on why this is it, then after having found all the reasons, you could make your decision. Otherwise, an uneducated decision become a bad decision! So much for democracy...

@Sentynox : what is your take on this then ?. Do not let us guess and guess and guess.....( :: ).

And look what it cost the people of Afghanistan. Was Obama bin Laden worth that much to the people of Afghanistan? And even now?

And remember, they could have given bin Laden up after the war started ...but they didn't. They chose to watch their countrymen be killed in a war that they could have stopped at any time.

The Afghans have no one to blame but themselves. They wanted it this way, so they should quit complaining.

Baron Max

Let me get this right. It was their fault they asked for due process?

Obviously it was and is .....we keep funding the war. And in addition to that, our new pres is going to send in more troop so they can killl Afghans faster.

Obviously it was and is Do you have any logic or explanation as to WHY?

The "innocent" Afghan never wanted this war? Then why don't they get together and stop it? They could do so in ten minutes or so ...maybe sooner.
How do you propose they stop this?

Obviously it was and is .....we keep funding the war. And in addition to that, our new pres is going to send in more troop so they can killl Afghans faster.

The "innocent" Afghan never wanted this war? Then why don't they get together and stop it? They could do so in ten minutes or so ...maybe sooner.

Baron Max


9 Soldiers Killed in Afghanistan

KABUL, Afghanistan — Insurgents killed nine American and NATO soldiers in Afghanistan over the weekend, underscoring the alarming increase in the sophistication and frequency of roadside bomb attacks that contributed to making July the deadliest month of the allies’ eight-year campaign against the Taliban.(http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/world/asia/03afghan.html?_r=1)

Its tragic that American youngsters have to die. The resistance is getting stronger and stronger. When are the foreigners going to understand that they are not WELCOME in Afghanistan?

In North Korea Christian missionaries are punished by death sentences . In Afghanistan the missionaries have a carte Blanche to spread their propaganda everywhere . Although the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are for oil, permanent military bases , Israel domination of the Middle East; they have a religious dimension as well which is simply put " the war against Islam and Muslims ".

@Sentynox : what is your take on this then ?. Do not let us guess and guess and guess.....( :: ).

Well from my point of view and what I have read, the Army isn't in there because of freedom or Bin Laden at all, at least not for freedom in Afghanistan...
The real reason is energy supplies. Oil reserves are getting depleted, and since the US economy and the currency is based on oil dollars instead of gold, it is important to have the most oil resources possible in order to pay the US debt, or else the US is going bankrupt if someone else than the US take possession of the oil supplies in those regions (Russia, China, India....).
So for the US to continue growing, they need to secure as much oil as possible into their hands. Because remember, the US is an Empire, not really a country at all! If the conditions that makes the US an empire falls into the hands of someone else, then your country is history, because it is based entirely on its foreign oil trade that is controlling (because oil is mainly traded with US dollars all around the world so far).

In short the pipeline going in the North of Afghanistan is the strategic reason why the US are remaining there.
So if I was in the shoes of Obama I would be stuck with two scenarios, the first, continue the war in Afghanistan and pour enough troops to occupy it (which will displease a lot of peoples), or else, prepare an energetic revolution to get rid of the petro dollars and coming with something completely new!!
So now, which one is cheaper?

Let me get this right. It was their fault they asked for due process?

Yes. The "due process" was to take place on American soil. And more to the point, the Taliban was not the legitimate government ...they were and are nothing but criminals and terrorists.

Baron Max

Its tragic that American youngsters have to die. The resistance is getting stronger and stronger. When are the foreigners going to understand that they are not WELCOME in Afghanistan?

During World War II, the Germans nor the Japanese welcomed the USA into their countries either, but we went anyway, didn't we?

And interestingly, the German and the Japanese nations are highly prosperous and admired over most of the world ....after we beat the shit outta' them and rebuilt their nations!

Baron Max

Yes. The "due process" was to take place on American soil. And more to the point, the Taliban was not the legitimate government ...they were and are nothing but criminals and terrorists.

Baron Max

Why?


During World War II, the Germans nor the Japanese welcomed the USA into their countries either, but we went anyway, didn't we?

And interestingly, the German and the Japanese nations are highly prosperous and admired over most of the world ....after we beat the shit outta' them and rebuilt their nations!

Lets hope the Chinese are watching to see what kind of model you like best in an occupation.

Why?

Because.

Baron Max

Why?

[quote]During World War II, the Germans nor the Japanese welcomed the USA into their countries either, but we went anyway, didn't we?

And interestingly, the German and the Japanese nations are highly prosperous and admired over most of the world ....after we beat the shit outta' them and rebuilt their nations![/qote]

Lets hope the Chinese are watching to see what kind of model you like best in an occupation.
The U.S.A. still has military bases in both Japan and Germany although the masses there oppose them . Is this your freedom ?!. Add to that the fact the U.S. wants always permanent military bases here and there for occupation purposes .......

:crazy:

Its tragic that American youngsters have to die. The resistance is getting stronger and stronger. When are the foreigners going to understand that they are not WELCOME in Afghanistan?
They were welcome enough when we provided them the means to defeat the Russians.

Funny that how works, Spider.

They were welcome enough when we provided them the means to defeat the Russians. A few invited guests, bringing means for one's own ends, leaving upon request - welcome.

Tens of thousands of Uninvited occupiers, doing violence for their own ends, setting up house and refusing to go away - not welcome.

I'm sure you have similar rules in your own living room.

countezero: "Funny that how works, Spider."

It's a simple and universal principle: Don't try to run my life, and we'll get along just fine. The Founders of the USA understood and recognized this, and intended for the USA to never become entangled in any other nation's affairs. The present campaign in Afghanistan is the USA learning (the hard way) the most basic lessons of history and human nature.

A few invited guests, bringing means for one's own ends, leaving upon request - welcome.

Tens of thousands of Uninvited occupiers, doing violence for their own ends, setting up house and refusing to go away - not welcome.

I'm sure you have similar rules in your own living room.

Then why do the polls I keep posting show they support US troops there, Ice?

I think that The U.S. forces and their allies should pull off Afghanistan soon .
What do you think folks ?.

I didn't vote in the poll.

I'm not really sure what the wisest course of action is at the moment, and can only hope that our military is doing its best to keep our quality of life up to par.

Example: Heroin is becoming somewhat of a Black Dragon to human consciousness. If we give up Afghanistan then foreign forces will control the heroin trade. If we give up on Afghanistan then women there will continue to not have any rights under the rule of idiots.

They need our money, and "our" addicts need their heroin. We need them to need our money, in order to keep inflation down. Can the world really be as damned as that? Maybe so...

In some cases, good things can come from bad karma. That's the nature of this mortal existence, that cannot be denied.

:shrug:

I didn't vote in the poll.

I'm not really sure what the wisest course of action is at the moment, and can only hope that our military is doing its best to keep our quality of life up to par.

Example: Heroin is becoming somewhat of a Black Dragon to human consciousness. If we give up Afghanistan then foreign forces will control the heroin trade. If we give up on Afghanistan then women there will continue to not have any rights under the rule of idiots.

They need our money, and "our" addicts need their heroin. We need them to need our money, in order to keep inflation down. Can the world really be as damned as that? Maybe so...

In some cases, good things can come from bad karma. That's the nature of this mortal existence, that cannot be denied.

:shrug:
With all due respect...talking about idiots...you can easily be number one on the list .
You debate as if you are addressing walls and not people with brains.
:shrug: .

Then why do the polls I keep posting show they support US troops there, Ice?

The polls are influenced by the lies of the US Administratioin and their media supporters who deny the masses the truth .:):) .

A few invited guests, bringing means for one's own ends, leaving upon request - welcome.

Tens of thousands of Uninvited occupiers, doing violence for their own ends, setting up house and refusing to go away - not welcome.

I'm sure you have similar rules in your own living room.

We are there with the consent of the Afghani government, helping build their army so that they will not crumble if we leave.

We are there with the consent of the Afghani government, helping build their army so that they will not crumble if we leave. And the Afghani government is there with the consent of the US military, and not otherwise.

Mutual consent, the basic foundation of ethical behavior. Now, about the inhabitants of the landscape, who seem somehow unenthusiastic about all of this - - -
Then why do the polls I keep posting show they support US troops there, Ice? Dunno. Think we can get any of them to fight as they supposedly poll, sometime in the next few years?

We are there with the consent of the Afghani government, helping build their army so that they will not crumble if we leave.
The so called president of Afghanistan Hamid Karzai was working for the C.I.A. for ages before 9/11 . The same goes for many so called Iraqi leaders .
Are the C.I.A. operatives, coroborators the real presidents of the sovereign nations ?!!!.

So? Who says the Afghani people don't want us there? It would be a humanitarian disaster if we left now, the Taliban would sweep in, murder the current government and anyone that was friendly with them, establish sharia law, and welcome their Al Quida brothers from accross the border. Is that what you want to happen? The Taliban are worse than the Russians, because they think God is on their side.

So? Who says the Afghani people don't want us there? It would be a humanitarian disaster if we left now, the Taliban would sweep in, murder the current government and anyone that was friendly with them, establish sharia law, and welcome their Al Quida brothers from accross the border. Is that what you want to happen? The Taliban are worse than the Russians, because they think God is on their side. And the Taliban are much more fearsome fighters than the Russians, too, apparently - all the US had to do was slip the Afghanis some weapons and intelligence and the Russians had no chance. Against the awesome Taliban, even direct air support and much more extensive logistical aid does not suffice. Who are these Taliban, that fight so much harder than Afghanis even, let alone Russians? Where are they from, so that the Afghani people can drive them back to their homes?

The US and NATO are in Afghanistan and Iraq for their own interests and absolutely NOT for the interests of the Iraqis or the Afghans . Yes....oil, permanent military bases and many other interests .

The polls are influenced by the lies of the US Administratioin and their media supporters who deny the masses the truth .:):) .

That is what people such as yourself always cry when confronted with evidence that does not support a preordained conclusion: Propaganda, you all cry, like lemmings!

İt is an old game - and one İ will not indulge in here. İf you think BBC and ABC, who İ think conducted the poll, are agents of the US, then no argument or dose of reality can cure such delusion.

And the Taliban are much more fearsome fighters than the Russians, too, apparently - all the US had to do was slip the Afghanis some weapons and intelligence and the Russians had no chance. Against the awesome Taliban, even direct air support and much more extensive logistical aid does not suffice. Who are these Taliban, that fight so much harder than Afghanis even, let alone Russians? Where are they from, so that the Afghani people can drive them back to their homes?

Again you show your ignorance of Afghanistan, history and the current conflict. Bravo. And your above response? You know the one where you say: Dunno. Can you really come up wıth nothıng else? :rolleyes:

They were welcome enough when we provided them the means to defeat the Russians.

That is a less than candid statement. They NEVER asked for assistance. The CIA, penetrated, recruited, trained and ultimately USED elements of the resistance movement as a vehicle in pursuing its agenda against the then "insert enemy of the day here", in this case, commies. The Russians left defeated, and so will Uncle Sam.

Then why do the polls I keep posting show they support US troops there, Ice?
Simply (duh) because the polls are designed to keep gullible Americans, like yourself, supportive of the OCCUPATION. You don`t seriously believe they are accurate? :rolleyes:

We are there with the consent of the Afghani government, helping build their army so that they will not crumble if we leave.
No. With the support of the illegal US puppet regime, who are NOT representative of the people. Rest assured, they will not crumble. They were not crumbling BEFORE the occupation, and they certainly won`t crumble after you are gone. Where in G-d`s name does this misplaced arrogance come from?

Elections are always a "problem" for "liberators"


When Hamid Karzai was installed as president by the international community in 2001, he was widely seen, particularly by the United States, as the bright hope of Afghanistan's future after the fall of the Taliban.

Now, as Mr. Karzai runs for re-election, the picture has changed markedly. The Taliban, once thought of as a defeated entity, has re-emerged as a full-blown insurgency. And Mr. Karzai is now widely seen as presiding over a corrupt government, says analyst Nora Bensahel of the RAND Corporation.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-03-voa34.cfm

Even the erstwhile Karzai seems to be going on a tangent to American aspirations


As insurgency spreads across larger territory in Afghanistan, the voice for negotiations with militants gets more attention and importance.

Afghan Government has been asking Taliban militants to come for talks and join the process of stabilization in the war-torn country.

President Hamid Karzai recently asked Taliban to join the electoral process and use their right of franchise as a common Afghan.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/03/content_11818707.htm

İf you think BBC and ABC, who İ think conducted the poll, are agents of the US, ABC has been a reliable conduit for US government war propaganda for many years. You know that.

Do we really need to go back and consider the taking and using of polls of Iraqis, polls of Vietnamese, during those respective wars? Can't we just learn these lessons once?

During World War II, the Germans nor the Japanese welcomed the USA into their countries either, but we went anyway, didn't we?

And interestingly, the German and the Japanese nations are highly prosperous and admired over most of the world ....after we beat the shit outta' them and rebuilt their nations!

Baron Max

That was a real war, this thing in afganifuck is an expensive CIA hide and go seek.

That was a real war, this thing in afganifuck is an expensive CIA hide and go seek.

That's only because we chose to do it that way. If I'd been in charge, things would have been just one helluva lot different, believe me!! :D

Baron Max

ABC has been a reliable conduit for US government war propaganda for many years. You know that.

Do we really need to go back and consider the taking and using of polls of Iraqis, polls of Vietnamese, during those respective wars? Can't we just learn these lessons once?
It is a well known fact that the The Administration and the media sleep in the same bed when it comes to wars propaganda and deception . :D .

Elections are always a "problem" for "liberators"



Even the erstwhile Karzai seems to be going on a tangent to American aspirations
President Hamid Karzai is picked by the US to protect the US interests .
Do we really call a puppet a president to start with ?.
:wallbang: .

Strategically it's a good place to have military bases to maintain control over China. With bases in Afghanistan, Korea and Okinawa we're the boss. That's the main point. BUT, I personally think we should work hard to get off oil and make bilateral agreement with China for what common interests this planet holds for our two great nations. What does China want? Need? How can these be met through agreements with the USA? China does have a claim over Afghanistan, I mean, it used to have control over that land, at one time, and honestly, as the world shrinks, well, it may be time again to rethink boarders. Chinese need land. Afghanistan would do well to invite as many Chinese into their country as want to move. It would do wonders for their economy. Helping both people. China gets more land and resources and Afghanistan gets security and a much improved living standard and high education. Much better than being heroin drug pushers that they are now anyway.

Win Win

Yeah I can just see the fiercely independent Pashtuns under the centralised Chinese Rule. Anyone ever wonder why the Chinese don't expand in the direction of Afghanistan? They'd probably find their entire population adopting the Jirga system.

During World War II, the Germans nor the Japanese welcomed the USA into their countries either, but we went anyway, didn't we?

And interestingly, the German and the Japanese nations are highly prosperous and admired over most of the world ....after we beat the shit outta' them and rebuilt their nations!

Baron Max
Well firstly Japan and Germany were civilized first world nations. If you went 1000 years back into history, they were still technologically more advanced than Afghanistan. After the war WE were the ones learning from the Germans! The Japanese built larger warships then us!

See the difference?

Secondly, to mold someone into your image you must pound this fight out of them. Hard. Afghan people do not deserve this. Just leave them with their huts and their herds.

I promise you, it's only a matter of time before one of the larger nations swallows them up anyway. That's a simple fact of history.

Yeah I can just see the fiercely independent Pashtuns under the centralised Chinese Rule. Anyone ever wonder why the Chinese don't expand in the direction of Afghanistan? They'd probably find their entire population adopting the Jirga system.History suggests it's China that does the swallowing.

Anyway, it's a simple matter of logistics. China has BILLIONS of people. They are growing millions of new people every day. The entire population of Afghanistan is turned over in China every month or so. China will need land. They need it. Afghanistan has that land.

Deals can and will be made with a rich and powerful China. There's no doubt in my mind. Warlords will sell out.


The exact same thing is happening in Africa. Saudi's are buying large chucks of land they need to farm. Money talks.

Anyway, it only makes sense.

Strategically it's a good place to have military bases to maintain control over China. With bases in Afghanistan, Korea and Okinawa we're the boss. That's the main point. BUT, I personally think we should work hard to get off oil and make bilateral agreement with China for what common interests this planet holds for our two great nations. What does China want? Need? How can these be met through agreements with the USA? China does have a claim over Afghanistan, I mean, it used to have control over that land, at one time, and honestly, as the world shrinks, well, it may be time again to rethink boarders. Chinese need land. Afghanistan would do well to invite as many Chinese into their country as want to move. It would do wonders for their economy. Helping both people. China gets more land and resources and Afghanistan gets security and a much improved living standard and high education. Much better than being heroin drug pushers that they are now anyway.


1 : It is good to have military bases in Afghanistan to maintain control over China....these are your STUPID words here . Hahaha...!!!.
You make it sound that the world is a jungle with no laws whereas the big fish eat the small fish . Shame on you to think like that !!!. 2 : You are the boss in people's sovereign nations and that means you are a tyrant and a bully with no justice attached to you . 3 : China did not invade Afghanistan but both the US and Russia did .:wallbang::wallbang:

History suggests it's China that does the swallowing.

Anyway, it's a simple matter of logistics. China has BILLIONS of people. They are growing millions of new people every day. The entire population of Afghanistan is turned over in China every month or so. China will need land. They need it. Afghanistan has that land.

Deals can and will be made with a rich and powerful China. There's no doubt in my mind. Warlords will sell out.


The exact same thing is happening in Africa. Saudi's are buying large chucks of land they need to farm. Money talks.

Anyway, it only makes sense.
Living in fantasies is a bliss .
Ignorance is a disaster .
China, Saudis, afghanistan...?.....:shrug::shrug:.

And the Taliban are much more fearsome fighters than the Russians, too, apparently - all the US had to do was slip the Afghanis some weapons and intelligence and the Russians had no chance. Against the awesome Taliban, even direct air support and much more extensive logistical aid does not suffice. Who are these Taliban, that fight so much harder than Afghanis even, let alone Russians? Where are they from, so that the Afghani people can drive them back to their homes?
Many Taliban are Afghans, to be sure. The Taliban are much better organized and equipped than most Afghan warlord groups, since they defeated many of them during the civil war which followed the pullout of the USSR (it wasn't the Taliban that defeated the Russians as they hadn't formed yet). There just isn't anyone left to oppose them.


That is a less than candid statement. They NEVER asked for assistance. The CIA, penetrated, recruited, trained and ultimately USED elements of the resistance movement as a vehicle in pursuing its agenda against the then "insert enemy of the day here", in this case, commies. The Russians left defeated, and so will Uncle Sam.
How do you know what they asked for?


No. With the support of the illegal US puppet regime, who are NOT representative of the people. Rest assured, they will not crumble. They were not crumbling BEFORE the occupation, and they certainly won`t crumble after you are gone. Where in G-d`s name does this misplaced arrogance come from?
I could ask you the same question. Where will your arrogant self-righteousness be when the fundamentalist Islamists are in power? Will you show the same outrage at the ethnic cleansing and public executions?

The Taliban are much better organized and equipped than most Afghan warlord groups, So after seven years of training and a fortune in equipment etc, air support and satellite intelligence and fancy weaponry and all that, the US allies are still badly disorganized and poorly equipped compared with a bunch of cave-dwelling tribal guerrillas from the same basic people.

How does that happen?

I could ask you the same question. Where will your arrogant self-righteousness be when the fundamentalist Islamists are in power? Will you show the same outrage at the ethnic cleansing and public executions? Speaking for myself, I will show more outrage at the probable Taliban behavior than most US apologists have shown at similar behavior among the US allies in neighboring Central Asian countries such as Uzbekistan.

And that is in spite of the fact that outrage at the behavior of US allies has some point to it - it's outrage that can have an effect. Maybe that's why it seems to be discouraged or deflected away from the major media's concerns.

So after seven years of training and a fortune in equipment etc, air support and satellite intelligence and fancy weaponry and all that, the US allies are still badly disorganized and poorly equipped compared with a bunch of cave-dwelling tribal guerrillas from the same basic people.

How does that happen?

I was only talking about warlords, the only non-governmental forces remotely capable of resisting the Taliban.

So after seven years of training and a fortune in equipment etc, air support and satellite intelligence and fancy weaponry and all that, the US allies are still badly disorganized and poorly equipped compared with a bunch of cave-dwelling tribal guerrillas from the same basic people.

How does that happen?
Speaking for myself, I will show more outrage at the probable Taliban behavior than most US apologists have shown at similar behavior among the US allies in neighboring Central Asian countries such as Uzbekistan.

And that is in spite of the fact that outrage at the behavior of US allies has some point to it - it's outrage that can have an effect. Maybe that's why it seems to be discouraged or deflected away from the major media's concerns.
I see things differently :
1 : The Taliban have no power . If you compare the total deaths of the Afghans to those of the US and their allies ; it is like nothing for the latter .
2 : Millions of Afghans refugees scattered in Iran, Pakistan and other countries as well .
3 : The western media are supportive of both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and they are a willing participant in the propaganda machine of lies and manupilation .
4 : According to many reports, both Bin Laden and his deputy were killed in 2001 in Afghanistan and all the videos attributed to them are made by the C.I.A. and MOSSAD for propaganda purposes .
5 : Afghanistan is a very poor country and people are happy to have enough bread and enough water . So kidding ourselves does not hide the truth .
6 : The notion of foreign fighters is created by the US to put pressure on other nations to help them occupy and rule other nations .

That is a less than candid statement. They NEVER asked for assistance. The CIA, penetrated, recruited, trained and ultimately USED elements of the resistance movement as a vehicle in pursuing its agenda against the then "insert enemy of the day here", in this case, commies. The Russians left defeated, and so will Uncle Sam.

This is bullshit, and the list of things you get wrong, don't know or refuse to acknowledge about the history of Afghanistan and the conflict there now runs several posts in multiple threads.

The Afghans were fighting the Russians long before we showed up and the begged for US weapons. In fact, they initially balked at what Carter was dedicating to the program. This is all dramatized rather well in the film Charlie Wilson's War, which I mention only because you seem incapable of reading the best available books -- that I recommended numerous times to you.


Simply (duh) because the polls are designed to keep gullible Americans, like yourself, supportive of the OCCUPATION. You don`t seriously believe they are accurate? :rolleyes:

It's bold, displaying ignorance as often as you do, to run about calling people "gullible," but so you do. I believe the poll because I have no reason to doubt it and because, having read through its methodology and checked the results with what I know from friends on the ground there, I find it matches up with my own anecdotal evidence.

In other words, I have no reason right now to disbelieve, but you are free to try to post something that will convince me to do so. Only, consider that it will take more than name-calling and illustrations. You will actually have to provide some substance.


ABC has been a reliable conduit for US government war propaganda for many years. You know that.

Do we really need to go back and consider the taking and using of polls of Iraqis, polls of Vietnamese, during those respective wars? Can't we just learn these lessons once?

So you say something and it's so, right?

Oh, wait.

Wrong.

As usual, it's just your bullshit opinion, and in this case, on its face it's just plain dumb. For starters, your buddy Hype has been citing certain parts of the same poll. Didn't see you bitch then. Haven't seen you actually bitch the several other times I posted the poll, it's only now, when you've been cornered that you attack it. This is the old game of yours. And you can say what you like about ABC, but how do you account for BBC, that old propaganda machine for the US, right? And did you even bother to read the methodology, explained in the links I provided, are you just dismissing the poll because I cited it, it made you look dumb and it undermines your preordained worldview? I think I know the answer.

I was only talking about warlords, the only non-governmental forces remotely capable of resisting the Taliban.

Before the US and its allies started the war in Afghanistan, the Taliban were fighting the Western alliance for power and control of the nation . General Massoud did not want the US there and he was killed by....ghosts...I suppose...:D .

There's still much latent desperation within the inertial center of US culture, to regress into a new cold war. But China is not competing (and never will) with the USA militarily (or ideologically) as the Soviet Union did. They will not make those now-obvious mistakes. A larger lesson in history / historical trends is that martial empire is no longer feasible here in the dawn of an unprecedented information-access age, and here late in the sunset of the Industrial "Revolution" (centralization of production). Those who consider Afghanistan from a Sino-US cold-war perspective are at least a century behind a look around from the perspective of present reality. China will do just fine anywhere the US intervenes militarily- without rattling a silo, and without public comment. The reality has changed.

I predict there will never be a war between China and the US as the price is too high on both sides of the equation . The fact that NATO follows the US in its colony endeavours is a gross injustice towards their own peoples and towards the occupied nations .
In the past few days some Canadian and French troops were killed in Afghanistan and the question is : what did they die for ?. They died there because their political morons back home wanted to kiss the ass of uncle Sam in Washington ! . :mad: .

I see things differently :
1 : The Taliban have no power . If you compare the total deaths of the Afghans to those of the US and their allies ; it is like nothing for the latter .
2 : Millions of Afghans refugees scattered in Iran, Pakistan and other countries as well .
3 : The western media are supportive of both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and they are a willing participant in the propaganda machine of lies and manupilation .
4 : According to many reports, both Bin Laden and his deputy were killed in 2001 in Afghanistan and all the videos attributed to them are made by the C.I.A. and MOSSAD for propaganda purposes .
5 : Afghanistan is a very poor country and people are happy to have enough bread and enough water . So kidding ourselves does not hide the truth .
6 : The notion of foreign fighters is created by the US to put pressure on other nations to help them occupy and rule other nations .

1. 400,000 people were killed in Afghanistan's civil war.
2. The fact that there are refugees is tragic, but that does not discount that some wars are worth fighting.
3. What lies?
4. "according to many reports". Is that like Fox News' "some say..."?. Hardly a credible source, and Al Quida and the Taliban would be dangerous with or without Bin Laden.
5. No, they are not simple cretins satisfied with bread and water, they are human beings who want education, infrastructure, and a reasonable set of public laws. They don't want to be oppressed by a violent ultra-religious gang.
6. If they are from Pakistan, they are technically foriegn.

1 : If your neighbour is a murderer and if you follow him it does not make you less guilty .
2 : Millions of refugees because of the US war against their homeland .
3 : Lies like 9/11 tragic events and all the war propaganda machine attached to it .
4 : There were dozens of Al Qaeda memebers in Afghanistan before 9/11 and NOT thousands as speculated . Afghanistan is terribly poor and can NOT be a danger to the super power U.S.A.
5 : They do not want to be the slaves of the US as they are now . their governments are picked by the US and their lives are hell because of the US too .
6 : How come all NATO have troops in Afghanistan ?. what are NATO troops dying for ?!.
7 :.......:wallbang:

Before the US and its allies started the war in Afghanistan, the Taliban were fighting the Western alliance for power and control of the nation . General Massoud did not want the US there and he was killed by....ghosts...I suppose...:D .

You are an idiot, and I tire of reading your nonsense.

It's the Northern Alliance.

And Massoud was a paid US asset. He welcomed the US presence and argued for more. He was killed by Al Qaeda. This is well known.

You are an idiot, and I tire of reading your nonsense.

It's the Northern Alliance.

And Massoud was a paid US asset. He welcomed the US presence and argued for more. He was killed by Al Qaeda. This is well known.
You are an idiot .
I do not call people names unless they start .
Do not read me and do not reply . Who is begging you to read me ?!!!.
Messaoud was a commander of it and he refused the US involvement in his country . He wanted cash, weapons but NOT military bases .....dear pure idiot....:D .

This is bullshit, and the list of things you get wrong, don't know or refuse to acknowledge about the history of Afghanistan and the conflict there now runs several posts in multiple threads.
OK. You must be right and I must be wrong, eh?

The Afghans were fighting the Russians long before we showed up and the begged for US weapons. In fact, they initially balked at what Carter was dedicating to the program. This is all dramatized rather well in the film Charlie Wilson's War, which I mention only because you seem incapable of reading the best available books -- that I recommended numerous times to you.
And how did they approach the Americans? The Americans were ALREADY there. As they are in practically any given conflict situation around the globe. This meddling, far, far away from US borders (unlike the Russians) is now biting back, as the US stumbles around trying to find an unembarrassing way out of the crisis.

It's bold, displaying ignorance as often as you do, to run about calling people "gullible," but so you do. I believe the poll because I have no reason to doubt it and because, having read through its methodology and checked the results with what I know from friends on the ground there, I find it matches up with my own anecdotal evidence.
Granted. There are various polls showing various outcomes. Perhaps the best way to judge the situation is via the fierce resistance to the occupation. The US is not fighting "terrorists", it is fighting Afghanis who are resisting occupation. Simple.

In other words, I have no reason right now to disbelieve, but you are free to try to post something that will convince me to do so. Only, consider that it will take more than name-calling and illustrations. You will actually have to provide some substance.
Apologies for the name calling. :m:

Even when the US was bombing Afghanistan day and night Donald Rumesfeld was telling the media that this war is the war of the Northern Alliance and not the US .
At first the Northern Alliance leaders like Doctor Abdullah abdullah were openly complaining to the media that the US and its allies sent too many troops to their country and that they want them out . After that , the US bought them with money and high places and stayed there as real colonialists and real imperialists . When you have clowns like Donald Rumesfeld controlling a nation ; one just wonders what this nation stands for if it stands for anything to start with...!!!.

Enemies are created when the US meddles overseas and sticks its nose where it doesn't belong.

I daresay if the US didn't meddle overseas and support Israel, and such, the Islamic "terrorists" would not be attacking.

Enemies are created when the US meddles overseas and sticks its nose where it doesn't belong.

I daresay if the US didn't meddle overseas and support Israel, and such, the Islamic "terrorists" would not be attacking.

Man....the whole world knows that 9/11 was an inside job .
The Administration version of events just does not add up .
Did you see all the lies of King G.W. Bush... ?!!.

We are not at war with Afghanistan, we are helping Afghanistan rid itself of a plague of Islamic Fundamentalism that went way too far, even for an Islamic country. They crossed the line when they helped Al Quida attack us, and they are still politically and philosophically aligned to them. The Taliban are standing in the way of peace and prosperity for the Afghans. I agree that Afghans are also wary of foreign intervention, and I do not agree that most Afghans view the US as a colonizing force.

We are not at war with Afghanistan, we are helping Afghanistan rid itself of a plague of Islamic Fundamentalism that went way too far, even for an Islamic country. A. They crossed the line when they helped Al Quida attack us, and they are still politically and philosophically aligned to them. The Taliban are standing in the way of peace and prosperity for the Afghans. I agree that Afghans are also wary of foreign intervention, B. and I do not agree that most Afghans view the US as a colonizing force.

A. Of course, as I am sure you are no doubt aware, there is NO evidence connecting the Taliban to 9//11 whatsoever.
B. What do you think they view them as?

A. Of course, as I am sure you are no doubt aware, there is NO evidence connecting the Taliban to 9//11 whatsoever.

No one said that you had to believe the evidence ...but it's there, nevertheless. And if it was good enough evidence for the majority of the US congress, then it's good enough for me.

But you don't have to believe it if you don't want to. But believe this ....the US is at war in Afghanistan against the Taliban (and any other radical Muslims that might be trying to kill people).

Baron Max

A. Of course, as I am sure you are no doubt aware, there is NO evidence connecting the Taliban to 9//11 whatsoever.
B. What do you think they view them as?

Oh no, Al Quida just happened to be another Islamic Fundamentalist militia residing in their territory without their knowledge or consent.

We are not at war with Afghanistan, we are helping Afghanistan rid itself of a plague of Islamic Fundamentalism that went way too far, even for an Islamic country. They crossed the line when they helped Al Quida attack us, and they are still politically and philosophically aligned to them. The Taliban are standing in the way of peace and prosperity for the Afghans. I agree that Afghans are also wary of foreign intervention, and I do not agree that most Afghans view the US as a colonizing force.

Afghanistan is less extreme than Saudi Arabia; yet, why isn't the US at war with Saudi?

Ah, yes, connections...and oil...and plunder. This has nothing to do with spreading democracy, and entirely everything to do with spreading puppet governments and unwanted American influence.

There's no grand strategy. The USA has lost her way and won't confront reality, like any declining empire before.

Oh no, Al Quida just happened to be another Islamic Fundamentalist militia residing in their territory without their knowledge or consent.

Al Qaeda does not and did not represent any government or any peoples so to speak . Bin Laden was kicked from Saudi Arabia for his ideology, his deputy Doctor Ayman zawahiri was kicked from Egypt after spending some time in jail for his political views .....etc . So with all fairness Al Qaeda is and was a bunch of squeegee kids from different countries who got into trouble back home and they found refuge in Afghanistan . Their number was and is still highly exaggerated . They were few dozens and absolutely not thousands from all what I read and made sense to me. So Al Qaeda is and was a minuscule group who represented no one but itself . Des anyone really take such a group seriously when its memebers living a primitive life in caves ?!.
Al Qaeda and terrorism are just pretexts for the US and their allies NATO to obtain colonies and fight Islam and Muslims . So far the wars of propaganda, lies and manipulation are a great success otherwise how can anyone believe a word said by G.W. Bush, Donald Rumesfeld, Paul wolfowitz, Dick Cheney......and the rest of the disgraced gang ???!!!.

No one said that you had to believe the evidence ...but it's there, nevertheless. And if it was good enough evidence for the majority of the US congress, then it's good enough for me.

But you don't have to believe it if you don't want to. But believe this ....the US is at war in Afghanistan against the Taliban (and any other radical Muslims that might be trying to kill people).

Baron Max

Well then, if there is evidence. Point me to it.

Al Qaeda does not and did not represent any government or any peoples so to speak . Bin Laden was kicked from Saudi Arabia for his ideology, his deputy Doctor Ayman zawahiri was kicked from Egypt after spending some time in jail for his political views .....etc . So with all fairness Al Qaeda is and was a bunch of squeegee kids from different countries who got into trouble back home and they found refuge in Afghanistan . Their number was and is still highly exaggerated . They were few dozens and absolutely not thousands from all what I read and made sense to me. So Al Qaeda is and was a minuscule group who represented no one but itself . Des anyone really take such a group seriously when its memebers living a primitive life in caves ?!.
Al Qaeda and terrorism are just pretexts for the US and their allies NATO to obtain colonies and fight Islam and Muslims . So far the wars of propaganda, lies and manipulation are a great success otherwise how can anyone believe a word said by G.W. Bush, Donald Rumesfeld, Paul wolfowitz, Dick Cheney......and the rest of the disgraced gang ???!!!.

They chose to live simply, because it's like a che thing, it's their style. However, Al Quida is well funded and organized. People train in making bombs and related skills. They have attacked several countries already, and are an ongoing threat. I agree their attacks are no strategic threat to us, they are not effective militarily, but people could be hurt, and we have to deal with them.

Norsefire, we aren't at war with the Saudis just like we aren't at war with the Afghans.

Well then, if there is evidence. Point me to it.

You aren't worth the effort.

Baron Max

We're all well worth and attentive to the effort- but you are particularly, consistently frightened to make it, when called out. It is understandable why you're feeling insecure: Your worldview is not supported by the realities of history and human nature, and moments like these can be awkward.

Or surprise me- answer StrawDog.

They chose to live simply, because it's like a che thing, it's their style. However, Al Quida is well funded and organized. People train in making bombs and related skills. They have attacked several countries already, and are an ongoing threat. I agree their attacks are no strategic threat to us, they are not effective militarily, but people could be hurt, and we have to deal with them.

Norsefire, we aren't at war with the Saudis just like we aren't at war with the Afghans.

I refer you to a book written by " Barry Zwicker " with a simple title " Towers Of deception " . When you read it you will realise that so many so called Al Qaeda terrorist activities in Iraq, Afghanistan and around the world are actually acts by the US C.I.A. to destroy and disturb the nation ( US added for emphasize purposes only ). :D:D .

I suppose we bombed the USS COLE too? And the first WTC? Then we bombed mosques in Iraq, and the trains in Spain? And England? And Africa?

I agree there are unanswered questions about 9/11, but that doesn't mean this is a grand conspiracy involving all these events. The evidence does not support this.

What evidence?

Many of the people responsible were arrested and the evidence presented at trial convicted them.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/26/terror/main3414029.shtml

Is that the same kind of evidence the prosecution is searching for in the case of Guantanamo detainees?

The US has little credibility where its "justice" system is concerned. Their own global war crimes go unpunished.

I suppose you have evidence that these bombings were ordered or masterminded by the US?

Wouldn't be the first time a military industrial complex created an excuse for war.

I suppose you have evidence that these bombings were ordered or masterminded by the US?

Please refer to Barry Zwicker book " Towers Of Deception ". it has many very interesting links as well......:D .

I will defer consideration of your conspiracy theory until you have some evidence.

Wouldn't be the first time a military industrial complex created an excuse for war.

Wouldn't be the first time Muslims blew up shit because the world isn't Muslim enough for them.

I think that The U.S. forces and their allies should pull off Afghanistan soon .
What do you think folks ?.

I'm glad we're deciding foreign policy on an internet discussion forum.

You're not a Joint Cheif, are you?

I will defer consideration of your conspiracy theory until you have some evidence.

By reading all sides of the equation we can make our own conclusion . Following the Administration and the media version of events is helpless .
There are tons of documents on the Internet and elsewhere to convince anyone who is open to see the truth as it is and not as dictated by some precise agenda folks .

I'm glad we're deciding foreign policy on an internet discussion forum.

You're not a Joint Cheif, are you?

Sad and sad indeed .
In a world of conflicting ideas...you come with this non sense....:D .

By reading all sides of the equation we can make our own conclusion . Following the Administration and the media version of events is helpless .
There are tons of documents on the Internet and elsewhere to convince anyone who is open to see the truth as it is and not as dictated by some precise agenda folks .

OK, but nothing I have read convinces me that the US deliberately bombed themselves. They could have neglected the problem, leading to missing their chance to prevent the attacks, but that still leaves Al Quida as an enemy.

Spidergoat why do you think its in U.S interest to be in Afghanistan? I do believe we should pull out and leave the people of Afghanistan alone to decide their own fate. All we have managed to do in this insane war in Afghanistan and Iraq is provide fuel to the fire of islamic extremism. Its not wise, it in no way is helpful for the people in these countries (notice how they rejoiced at the U.S exit in Iraq and were not thankful?) and it doesn't provide us with any security in the West. Its Obama building on Bush's mistake and Obama's war will be just as wasteful. You say the US has to 'win' this one, Why? Win what exactly?

Spidergoat why do you think its in U.S interest to be in Afghanistan? I do believe we should pull out and leave the people of Afghanistan alone to decide their own fate. All we have managed to do in this insane war in Afghanistan and Iraq is provide fuel to the fire of Islamic extremism. Its not wise, it in no way is helpful for the people in these countries (notice how they rejoiced at the U.S exit in Iraq and were not thankful?) and it doesn't provide us with any security in the West. Its Obama building on Bush's mistake and Obama's war will be just as wasteful. You say the US has to 'win' this one, Why? Win what exactly?

No one should be thankful for his enemies who destroy his country by killing and bombing everything they can in order to steal his oil and to establish permanent military bases there......etc. You are thankful if you are a US puppet whereas you are put in a high place and you read the US speeches like a parrot . Karzai, Chalabi.....etc just little puppets who have been serving the CIA for ages .
Note : Obama plan does NOT include the withdrawal of the US military bases from Iraq . Congressman Denis Kucinich and Ralf Nader had a plan of complete withdrawal of US troops including military bases .

OK. You must be right and I must be wrong, eh?

On thıs topıc, yes. You have consıstently shown you do not uds the hıstory of the regıon or ıts current polıtıcs, probably because you read nothıng but naıve antı-Amerıcan nonsense peddled by Europeans on websıtes.

İ have consıstently lısted sources and lınked to artıcles about the conflıct, past and present. Many tımes thıs was done to show the utter folly and nonsense of your posıtıons.


And how did they approach the Americans? The Americans were ALREADY there.

Well you could go over to youtube and watch the old clıps of them beggıng for guns to Dan Rather. Or read the books I keep tellıng you to read. They also sent delegatıons to Europe, the US and the UN, but ın the end, they met up wıth CIA and got the operatıon rollıng. Nobody forced these people to fıght the Sovıets and take arms.


As they are in practically any given conflict situation around the globe. This meddling, far, far away from US borders (unlike the Russians) is now biting back, as the US stumbles around trying to find an unembarrassing way out of the crisis.

Agaın, your ıgnorance ıs astoundıng. The Russıans meddled ın far more places than the US ever dıd. Look at Ethıopıa, Afghanıstan, Congo and a host of other places where the Sovıets funneled money and weapons to Marxıst guerıllas.


Granted. There are various polls showing various outcomes.

They all tend to show support for democracy, anger at the talıban.


Perhaps the best way to judge the situation is via the fierce resistance to the occupation.

There was more resıstence to the Talıban prıor to the Amerıcan arrıval. Agaın, ıf you knew the actual hıstory you would know thıs. It ıs obvıous you do not know ıt -- nor do you want to.


The US is not fighting "terrorists", it is fighting Afghanis who are resisting occupation. Simple.

The US ıs fıghtıng the Talıban and Al Qaeda, both of whıch have sıgnıfıcant foreıgn numbers ın theır ranks. The majorıty of the Afghans do not support eıther and never have.

Wouldn't be the first time a military industrial complex created an excuse for war.

Evıdence sam. not bullshıt.

The US and its NATO allies are fighting to establish colonies, permanent military bases , to steal the oil and resources , to fight Islam and Muslims....etc . The US and NATO are doing no one a favour . I expect Both Iraq and Afghanistan will be FREE one day because the colonialists and the imperialists failed again and again throughout history .

Spidergoat why do you think its in U.S interest to be in Afghanistan? I do believe we should pull out and leave the people of Afghanistan alone to decide their own fate. All we have managed to do in this insane war in Afghanistan and Iraq is provide fuel to the fire of islamic extremism. Its not wise, it in no way is helpful for the people in these countries (notice how they rejoiced at the U.S exit in Iraq and were not thankful?) and it doesn't provide us with any security in the West. Its Obama building on Bush's mistake and Obama's war will be just as wasteful. You say the US has to 'win' this one, Why? Win what exactly?
We will win if Islamic extremism doesn't take hold in Afghanistan. What's going to happen, we leave, the Taliban take over, Al Quida gets a whole country to operate in, and we just wait around for them to attack us and our allies again? If there is a pipeline involved, then that's also a win-win, good for us and good for Afghanistan, which is a very poor country.

We will win if Islamic extremism doesn't take hold in Afghanistan. What's going to happen, we leave, the Taliban take over, Al Quida gets a whole country to operate in, and we just wait around for them to attack us and our allies again? If there is a pipeline involved, then that's also a win-win, good for us and good for Afghanistan, which is a vey poor country.
Afghanistan is a MUSLIM nation and it will always be . The west sent hundreds of Christian missionaries to change the Afghans and they failed . The US and its allies make the Afghans starve and then they send them some bibles to make them change their religions . What a crap politics this is .
It is a well known fact that the Christian missionaries follow the US army everywhere . How naive are the Americans : they kill people, they steal their resources, they build huge military bases in their backyards, they bring them Christian missionaries to teach them holy crap.....and they do not understand why their crazy politics is not working.....:crazy::crazy:

There are all kinds of Muslims. The Taliban do not represent any "truer" sect of Islam. The Afghan people will probably always practice Islam. I'm very much against any christian missionary action associated with our military directed at the natives. I'm sure the military is aware of the cultural sensitivity required to be successful there.

We will win if Islamic extremism doesn't take hold in Afghanistan. What's going to happen, we leave, the Taliban take over, Al Quida gets a whole country to operate in, and we just wait around for them to attack us and our allies again? If there is a pipeline involved, then that's also a win-win, good for us and good for Afghanistan, which is a very poor country.

Well first of all Al-Qaeda doesn't need a base nor a head to operate. Al-qaeda operates from single self-contained cells and operate everywhere. Remember the bus bombing in London was carried out by British citizens many of whom were not even of middle-eastern descent so you cannot guarantee safety in the west as long as we engage in an ideological war. Second if you look at oil rich countries in developing countries it generally doesn't help the majority of the people at all as corruption ensures wealth for a few, just look at oil and mineral rich nations in Africa not to mention Burma and even Cambodia. U.S involvement is turning the people of Afghanistan against the americans as drones bomb innocent people and create animosity towards the west and strengthens support for the Taliban. The U.S remember allied themselves with the Taliban and Bin Laden against the Soviet Union so its not like the firs time that we have simply 'allowed' extremism to take over Afghanistan, as a matter of fact we couldn't have cared less about their extremism until we needed an excuse to go in.

When will the U.S learn the lessons of Vietnam? Meaning that when you fight an 'ideological' war against guerillas who are fighting for something definite like independence from foreign 'invaders' and 'bombers' that you don't 'win'. They are fighting for their autonomy, land and their lives, what are we fighting for?

The Taliban did not exist at the time the Soviet Union was fighting in Afghanistan, and Bin Laden had not formed Al Quida yet. Anyway, it's true that they do not need a large base of operations, but it makes things more difficult for them. The drone attacks have been a setback in terms of our public relations, but they are also hugely successful against our enemies. They have been forced to change their tactics. At this point, I wouldn't say that the tide of Afghan public opinion is moving overwhelmingly against us. They know the alternative.

The Taliban did not exist at the time the Soviet Union was fighting in Afghanistan, and Bin Laden had not formed Al Quida yet. Anyway, it's true that they do not need a large base of operations, but it makes things more difficult for them. The drone attacks have been a setback in terms of our public relations, but they are also hugely successful against our enemies. They have been forced to change their tactics. At this point, I wouldn't say that the tide of Afghan public opinion is moving overwhelmingly against us. They know the alternative.

The drones are not successful when they are hitting innocent people. We are not 'winning' yet as you say. The taliban was supported by the U.S and so was Bin Laden. What message do you think this sends to the Afghani people now that we have changed our minds and are fighting again like the soviets? You still have yet to tell me what we are fighting for? The americans used to say that about south vietnam, that they knew what the alternative was what they didn't understand is that the consequences were in our minds not theirs. Remember it isn't the average Afghani that is out there fighting the Taliban it is the americans. If we really believed in THEIR struggle we would let them fight themselves, something they are very apt to do since they have a very very long history of fighting major powers (just like the vietnamese)

We have a long way to go before we fight like the soviets. I realize the enemy is doing their best with the propaganda war. Anyway, the goal is to provide the time and space for the Afghan army to handle their own country.

The Taliban is a group of people who want to establish a strict Islamic regime . They were fighting the Northern Alliance before the US went there . Do you not think that the Taliban, the Northern Alliance and the rest of the Afghans can solve their affairs without the US presence ?. Also, it is a well known fact that the US is there for their own interests and absolutely not for the interests of the Afghans . People do not die for others' interests and everyone can see that . So it is fair to say that the only solution is for the US to leave Afghanistan and Iraq very soon . I deeply respect the sovereignty of all nations . Afghanistan and Iraq can not be a danger for the US as they are poor and living close to stone ages .

They are fighting for their autonomy, land and their lives, what are we fighting for?

The US is fighting for oil, resources, military bases and they bring tons of pretexts for their sheeple .

Mike, i think you qualify as the personification of a sheeple.

The Taliban is a group of people who want to establish a strict Islamic regime . They were fighting the Northern Alliance before the US went there . Do you not think that the Taliban, the Northern Alliance and the rest of the Afghans can solve their affairs without the US presence ?. Also, it is a well known fact that the US is there for their own interests and absolutely not for the interests of the Afghans . People do not die for others' interests and everyone can see that . So it is fair to say that the only solution is for the US to leave Afghanistan and Iraq very soon . I deeply respect the sovereignty of all nations . Afghanistan and Iraq can not be a danger for the US as they are poor and living close to stone ages .

Before we got there the Taliban won, who do you expect will defeat them? The losers?

Before we got there the Taliban won, who do you expect will defeat them? The losers?
The people of Afghanistan have the full rights to choose who govern them . If and when the US and its allies leave the country, the Afghans will live their lives as they wish . Leader Messaoud of the Northern Alliance wanted weapons and cash from foreigners but he refused military bases and interference on the soil of his nation . Obviously he was killed before the US went there . The Taliban regime is bad but it is not the only one : the world in fact is full of bad regimes .

Do you have any sources on the Messaoud story?

Spider don't bother. He has already changed his story. Initially. a few pages back, the "Western Alliance" didn't want anything from the US.

Now they wanted weapons and made all these other stipulations which weren't even considered at the time (bases and such; the US didn't want or ask for bases in the 80s, it was a covert op). He has no idea what he is talking about, just as the majority of the people in this thread do not.


The drones are not successful when they are hitting innocent people.

They are hitting guilty people, too. Or do you think the US just likes firing off multimillion dollar missiles for the fun of it?


Well first of all Al-Qaeda doesn't need a base nor a head to operate.

Sure, it does. The idea of franchise terrorism has never happened. And Al Qaeda have not been able to put together anything big precisely because they now lack the manpower, leadership a and ability to plan longterm. Everything they have done post-9/11 has been small potatoes, and in many instances, has little or nothing to do with bin Laden.


The taliban was supported by the U.S and so was Bin Laden.

These are probably the two most common lies repeated by Leftists and there is not a shred of evidence to support either.


Remember it isn't the average Afghani that is out there fighting the Taliban it is the americans. If we really believed in THEIR struggle we would let them fight themselves, something they are very apt to do since they have a very very long history of fighting major powers (just like the vietnamese)

The average Aafghani has been fighting the Taliban since the Taliban first emerged.

The average Afghani has been fighting the Taliban since the Taliban first emerged.

I never stated that the Taliban are or were good . The whole world knows that they are religious fanatics who impose their religious beliefs and mix religion and politics to govern . I see all religions as man made and things of the past . Having clarified this point, I add that NOT only in Afghanistan that the world saw civil wars . In fact there were many civil wars that led to millions of deaths such as in Rwanda, Ouganda, Congo......etc . The heart of the matter is that the US went to war in Afghanistan for goals that the Administration and the media do not mention to the masses . These goals do not include in any way the interests of the Afghans .

I did not claim you said anything of the sort, but you have said plenty wrong in this thread, displaying your ignorance for all to see: "Western Alliance," remember?

And you already backtracked on your Masood statements, so should anyone take your empty-headed claims about motive seriously? I think not.

You peddle bullshit and animosity. That's about it. Truth does not enter into it for you.

I never stated that the Taliban are or were good . The whole world knows that they are religious fanatics who impose their religious beliefs and mix religion and politics to govern . I see all religions as man made and things of the past . Having clarified this point, I add that NOT only in Afghanistan that the world saw civil wars . In fact there were many civil wars that led to millions of deaths such as in Rwanda, Ouganda, Congo......etc . The heart of the matter is that the US went to war in Afghanistan for goals that the Administration and the media do not mention to the masses . These goals do not include in any way the interests of the Afghans .

I think the fact is that the US didn't go to war in Afghanistan in a meaningful comprehensive way precisely because there was nothing to be gained there. That's why we subcontracted to the warlords and Bin Laden easily slipped through.

I did not claim you said anything of the sort, but you have said plenty wrong in this thread, displaying your ignorance for all to see: "Western Alliance," remember?

And you already backtracked on your Masood statements, so should anyone take your empty-headed claims about motive seriously? I think not.

You peddle bullshit and animosity. That's about it. Truth does not enter into it for you.
I meant Northern Alliance . All people make mistakes sometimes .
As far as Messaoud....my facts stand everywhere .
You are brainwashed by a strong propaganda from the Administration and the media . I do not blame you.....I pity you .
:D .

On thıs topıc, yes. You have consıstently shown you do not uds the hıstory of the regıon or ıts current polıtıcs, probably because you read nothıng but naıve antı-Amerıcan nonsense peddled by Europeans on websıtes.
My position, being contrary to your own, does not suggest that I am tainted by anti Americanism, but rather that I review the broader picture, and draw conclusions.

Well you could go over to youtube and watch the old clıps of them beggıng for guns to Dan Rather. Or read the books I keep tellıng you to read. They also sent delegatıons to Europe, the US and the UN, but ın the end, they met up wıth CIA and got the operatıon rollıng. Nobody forced these people to fıght the Sovıets and take arms.
No one is entirely innocent in this. But how can you deny that US meddling has not escalated and exacerbated this conflict? The US just happened to be there when they were begging for weapons eh?

Agaın, your ıgnorance ıs astoundıng. The Russıans meddled ın far more places than the US ever dıd. Look at Ethıopıa, Afghanıstan, Congo and a host of other places where the Sovıets funneled money and weapons to Marxıst guerıllas.
That is funny. For my ignorance to be astounding, you must perceive yourself as some kind of genius. The Russians, under communism, meddled globally to offset the (perceived or real) threat of Uncle Sam, who seriously considered invading and emasculating Russia after WW2. When this intel became known, it certainly did not endear Russia to the US. Russian intel demanded Russian geo strategy to counter US dominance. The BIG difference is that Russian meddling belongs in the past, and since the end of the cold war, the US has amplified its global meddling ten fold with largly negative consequences to human life and dignity. Look at Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, Pakistan, Georgia, Honduras, etc.

They all tend to show support for democracy, anger at the talıban.
They "ALL" certainly do not. Unfortunately the concept and pursuance of "Democracy" US style, is tainted with blood, and Afghanis know that from first hand experience. There is a certain amount of anger at the "Taliban", but that does not indicate wholehearted support for the US "occupation". On the contrary, they want foreigners OUT.

There was more resıstence to the Talıban prıor to the Amerıcan arrıval. Agaın, ıf you knew the actual hıstory you would know thıs. It ıs obvıous you do not know ıt -- nor do you want to.
Yes. And now the resistance has united, and turned against the invaders.

The US ıs fıghtıng the Talıban and Al Qaeda, both of whıch have sıgnıfıcant foreıgn numbers ın theır ranks. The majorıty of the Afghans do not support eıther and never have.
The sad, very sad fact is, that the US was never an enemy of the Taliban, or Afghanis, until the misguided invasion. Al Qaeda (allegedly) committed a criminal act that the US used as a pretext to invade and attack Afghanistan/Taliban for whatever reason you would like to believe. There is as yet no evidence to tie 9/11 to the Taliban.

You make it sound as if the US is fighting a JUST war. That is laughable. Regarding Afghan support, consider DiamondHearts posts on this topic, he has stated the reality of the average Afghan civilians perspective re the occupation on many occasion.

A few examples:


...These attacks have been going on for several months, butchering whole families. It is a completely ineffective strategy which creates animosity towards the occupying forces, and makes peace impossible... There is a gulf of difference between random assailants and resistance fighters who solely target occupational forces. The US strategy right now is to blur the line between the two, and also to blame the innocent civilians of the region for America's own failures in the neo-colonial Afghani, Iraqi adventures.


The basic lesson, predator missile attacks and air strikes are not effective and are isolating the US in the region, for both the governments and populace. So much for winning hearts and minds.


This is exactly the opinion of the Afghanis. Afghanistan for Afghanis. Foreigners, whether British, Russian, Indian, Americans, have caused nothing but problem for Afghanis, in particular the Pukhtoon people.

The sooner they leave, the closer we are to peace and a just resolution of this conflict. This is Afghani land, they have lived here for 3,000 years. If some people think they cannot manage themselves, they are sadly mistaken. Americans have only been here 8 years, in a few more they will leave. Then it will be only Afghanis here again. Afghanistan will always return to the way its always been. Free and independent.


Musharraf even mentions in his book, In the Line of Fire, that the US provided NO evidence to link anyone in Afghanistan with 9/11. He was forced to side with the Americans, even after he asked for proof, by a threat on a telephone conversation by an American official, "You either support us or we will bomb you back into the stone-age." It's in his book, you can read it for yourself. Neither of the nations were provided any proof to allege wither Alkaeda or Afghanis were involved in the tragedy of 9/11. Those who required more proof, such as the Pakistani government, were silenced by threats.


We can compare South Asia to Europe. The continent has about 1.5 billion individuals. Each province/state has its own language, culture, history, and identity, yet they are united by the concept that of religion and common historical past. This is also why Afghanistan and Kashmir will eventually become part of the Pakistan federation. The will of the people resides in unification, not division. Inshallah...

It is not uncommon for people in Pakistan to speak at least 3 languages sometimes even 4 or 5. Culture is defined more by what one sees himself as, where he resides, and what language he speaks than about ethnic makeup. The concept of race, in the Western definition, is foreign to the Muslim world.

It was known as the Indus River Valley Civilization. Under the Persian rule, Khurasaan. In Arabia, it was known as Sindh, whereas the Ganetic civilization as known as Hind. Today, it is known as Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Indian-occupied Kashmir...

It is very difficult for outsiders to grasp the internal realities of the region. They end up making strange theories based on little evidence. The Americans call us invaders. LOL. LOOOL.

The propaganda machine turns, the ignorant masses are receptive. Reality is that Pukhtoon are the native people of Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan. Case closed.


Actually, Pashtoon/Pukhtoon/Pathan people see themselves as part of the Pakistan Federation. What many Westerners forget is that Pakistan is not a state in the traditional sense, but a federation of six and more ethnic groups who share a common culture, religion, and ethnicity. The Pukhtoon are but one of these groups, and anyone who states that Pukhtoons see themselves as separate that Pakistan are deluded. Pukhtoons are Pakistan, they have always been. Also, the ethnic groups have a very high degree of intermarriage, and these ethnic groups are further divided into tribal groups. Futhermore, the Pukhtoons are divided between two main countries: Pakistan (in which 60% of Pukhtoons live) and Afghanistan (the remaining 40%). Afghanistan, as a state, has always relied on Pakistan, since ancient times, for food, water, fruit, wheat, animals, leather, and technology. The two are interconnected and require each other for survival. It has always been this way. Furthermore, they are related, all the people, the Pukhtoons, Punjabis, Kashmiris, Baluch, etc. All have a common historical experience in which they were important in the Mughal rule, and they all groups faced oppression and massacres under the British for being sympathetic to the Mughals, Afghanis, and also the Ottomans. No matter what happens. The people of Afghanistan and Pakistan will be brothers forever. Together, they survived the pagan Mongol destruction, Safavi invasions, British-supported Sikh tyranny, then outright British rule, Russian invasion, and no doubt they will survive the present invasion of their lands.


... Americans have ZERO knowledge of Afghanistan. What they imagine to be the situation in Afghanistan exists only in their minds. The Afghanis will decide themselves what they desire, regardless of what any Americans wish. The Americans are only a minor force in the history of Afghanistan, they are minuscule in comparison to the heritage of 3,000 years or more which exists in the great country of Afghanistan.

A few examples:

Thanks for that friend Hype.

So why the emphasis on US troops in Afghanistan?

Last I checked, there were about 35,000 troops from 41 other countries currently deployed there.

In the past 24 hours 4 US troops were killed in Afghanistan and the question is : what did they die for ?. They died for the propaganda and lies of G.W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld , Henry Kissinger.....and the rest of the gang who use the US people to achieve their purposes of aggression, bullying, and sabotage of sovereign nations . People in the US armed forces and elsewhere should obey orders only if the orders are according to the laws of the land, their own conscience and logic . They are not robots but their actions are as such since they follow any good or bad order . The neo cons , the Zionists and their supporters started two illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan . Now they enjoy life while the sons and daughters of the others die for their craziness .:mad: . If the US gets out of both Iraq and Afghanistan, the Americans save lives and billions of dollars . If they stay , more lives will be wasted and more billions of dollars sent to the toilets .:bawl: .

Absolutely No. The US should stay in Afgan until the Taliban is defeated and destroyed. I am against us in Iraq though.

Absolutely No. The US should stay in Afgan until the Taliban is defeated and destroyed. I am against us in Iraq though.

And what are your reasons for that ?.
To waste more money and more human lives ?!. :wallbang:

Mike: To free the poor population of that country from religious tyranny. To bring the modern world to these impovershed people with nothing. To prevent the Islamic infection from spreading. To stop the crimes against humanity committed against girlls & women there. To castrate radical fundamentalism.

Mike: To free the poor population of that country from religious tyranny. To bring the modern world to these impovershed people with nothing. To prevent the Islamic infection from spreading. To stop the crimes against humanity committed against girlls & women there. To castrate radical fundamentalism.
1 : The US is there for their own interests and NOT for the interests of the Afghans .
2 : The US is after oil, military bases and resources .
3 : I can not see any Muslim tyrant as bad as G.W. Bush, Donald Rumesfeld , Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney....and the rest of their gang . They are responsible for the destruction of millions of lives in Iraq and Afghanistan .
The huge number of innocent dead folks, at least 4 million refugees in Syria alone, about 3 million refugees in Pakistan, and around 3 million refugees in Iran . I think The Bush gang are the worse gang of the new millennium . The US is the biggest threat to crimes against humanity . As far as women are concerned they are happier with their lives if the US keep away from them .
Add to that the hundreds of Christian missionaries who follow the US army everywhere to try to spread their virus of the holy crap . The propaganda of the media and the Administration made a real circus from the American Masses .
:rolleyes: .

To leave the impoverished under such a brutal set of conditions is inhumane! Iraq was a war crime and the US had no right to be there but afghan is an entirely different place. The Soviets got a great start there till the US armed the mujahadeen/taliban. Now WE are trying to topple them. There should be a swcorched Earth policy there. The fundies must be wiped out for the greater good.

The US declared war on Afghanistan for their own interests and it has nothing to do with the state of the Afghans . The US did not even look after their own people when Katrina hit them let alone caring about the folks in Afghanistan . What the politicians say and do are two complete different things . :) .

So why the emphasis on US troops in Afghanistan? Last I checked, there were about 35,000 troops from 41 other countries currently deployed there.

41 countries under the command of the US .
If the US did not attack Afghanistan NATO would have not gone to war there . Many months Before the tragic events of 9/11 there was a barrage of media propaganda preparing to the war on Afghanistan . I know three languages and I can remember how when the US talked about Bin Laden or Taliban the rest of NATO followed blindly . If and when the US decides to get out of Afghanistan the rest of 41 countries will follow and obey uncle Sam in Washington . Do you expect for a minute or a second that countries like Spain, Canada, Croatia.....etc will go to war against Afghanistan or Iraq without the direct orders from the US ?!.

So why the emphasis on US troops in Afghanistan?

Last I checked, there were about 35,000 troops from 41 other countries currently deployed there. Combine that with: the universal hostility of the great majority of all Afghanis to rule by anti-American forces (see Countezero's interpretations of his esteemed polling service reports); the seven years of training, equipping, etc, the pro-American forces have enjoyed; and the large advantage in air support, intelligence, etc, any pro-American forces would enjoy;

and it would seem we hardly need any actual American soldiers in Afghanistan any more, no?

Time to bring them home, mission accomplished. Unless the situation and US agenda are somewhat other than that.

Afghans never liked the US and they will never do .
They differ in religion, culture, customs, values, language......etc.
The US is there for their own interests .
By the way the US casualties are increasing and not decreasing .

Afghans never liked the US and they will never do .
They differ in religion, culture, customs, values, language......etc.
The US is there for their own interests .
By the way the US casualties are increasing and not decreasing .

So what is new? Russia was there for their own interest, the Afghans are their for their own interest, so what don't you get, about their own Interests, every human serves His own Interest first last and always, or they die, at the hands of some one else serving His own Interest.

We're evolving past your Law of the Jungle, BR- because it utterly sucks.

We're evolving past your Law of the Jungle, BR- because it utterly sucks.

Agreed.
Right on .
The world has laws and there is always right and wrong .
The big fish eats the small fish is not a human behaviour .

As far as Messaoud....my facts stand everywhere .


Then post some -- with sources.

All I see you peddling here is a mixture of animosity, bullshit and trash. And yet you have the gall to turn around and accuse others of being victims of propaganda? What's your news source Pravda?


My position, being contrary to your own, does not suggest that I am tainted by anti Americanism, but rather that I review the broader picture, and draw conclusions.

I love the implication here: Your political views are the result of broader pictures, thus, those who do not share them are narrow-minded. I would take that as an insult if I didn't know just how narrow your view of the conflict really is, especially in light of what I know about it.


No one is entirely innocent in this.

Then why all the focus on one party?


But how can you deny that US meddling has not escalated and exacerbated this conflict? The US just happened to be there when they were begging for weapons eh?

I've denied nothing.

The simple fact is I do not have a problem with what the US did in the 1980s. Not a problem at all. Where we fucked up, to quote Charlie Wilson, is that we walked away "from the end game" and let the country go to shit. Now you and all the other hate-America crowd want history to repeat itself and your anger at the US has blinded you to this simplicity.


That is funny. For my ignorance to be astounding, you must perceive yourself as some kind of genius.

Not at all.

You just don't know much about anything on this topic. I've read maybe 7 or 8 books on the country and the conflict, and in addition to just reading the news, talk to an office-mate who is a Tajik with an Uncle very high up in the Northern Alliance. I make no claims at being an expert, but I wager I know more than most of the folks crowing in this thread about things they barely understand.


The Russians, under communism, meddled globally to offset the (perceived or real) threat of Uncle Sam, who seriously considered invading and emasculating Russia after WW2.

LOL.

You must be reading Pravda, too!


When this intel became known, it certainly did not endear Russia to the US. Russian intel demanded Russian geo strategy to counter US dominance.

You know as little about Russia (USSR, BTW) and its history as you do about the topic here. Russia, as you call them, were meddling with the US when the US thought it was an ally. A good book to see is The Sword and the Shield, which has pages of operations and campaigns against the US by the Soviets, who thoroughly penetrated the American govt. in the late 30s and early 40s.


The BIG difference is that Russian meddling belongs in the past, and since the end of the cold war, the US has amplified its global meddling ten fold with largly negative consequences to human life and dignity. Look at Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, Pakistan, Georgia, Honduras, etc.

In the same breath you mention Russia not meddling you mention Georgia, a place where they most definitely meddle. Please continue. You are making an ass of yourself. You need no help from me.


Yes. And now the resistance has united, and turned against the invaders.

So why the support for US and govt. troops?

And who is fighting the Taliban, much of which is foreign and therefore invading, if everyone has "united" against the US?


The sad, very sad fact is, that the US was never an enemy of the Taliban, or Afghanis, until the misguided invasion.

So are the UN and Nato -- both of whom support the invasion -- equally as misguided and nefarious?


Al Qaeda (allegedly) committed a criminal act that the US used as a pretext to invade and attack Afghanistan/Taliban for whatever reason you would like to believe. There is as yet no evidence to tie 9/11 to the Taliban.

Like Ice, you live in fantasy world where you refuse to acknowledge that Afghanistan was Al Qaeda's sanctuary and the Taliban its ally. You refuse to acknowledge the ties between the two groups. Nobody, at least nobody with a brain, has accused the Taliban of direct involvement in the attacks, because there was none. But to pretend they are completely blameless --given the ties and support and sanctuary -- is convenient logic created by people like you to fit preordained conclusions.


You make it sound as if the US is fighting a JUST war. That is laughable.

They are fighting a just war, and pretty much everyone other than fringe, hate-America Leftists like yourself agree on this point. Even Barrack Obama called it the right war.


Regarding Afghan support, consider DiamondHearts posts on this topic, he has stated the reality of the average Afghan civilians perspective re the occupation on many occasion.

Oh, Diamondhearts said so.

That makes it gospel right? He speaks for Afghanistan whenever he isn't speaking for the entire Muslim world, so we should all stop and listen to his incoherent babble, right? :rolleyes:

I love the implication here: Your political views are the result of broader pictures, thus, those who do not share them are narrow-minded. I would take that as an insult if I didn't know just how narrow your view of the conflict really is, especially in light of what I know about it.
You know what you know. You are far from the final authority on this topic.

Then why all the focus on one party?
War creates criminals. The guilty party is the one who created the war.

I've denied nothing.

The simple fact is I do not have a problem with what the US did in the 1980s. Not a problem at all. Where we fucked up, to quote Charlie Wilson, is that we walked away "from the end game" and let the country go to shit.
That is telling, a sense of arrogant righteousness. We can`t be wrong, can we?

Now you and all the other hate-America crowd want history to repeat itself and your anger at the US has blinded you to this simplicity.
How can one hate a nation that birthed John Steinbeck and Tom Waits?
What the hell was the US doing there in the first place? The constant meddling in far away nations with subsequent negative impact on the average citizen is my issue.

Not at all.

You just don't know much about anything on this topic. I've read maybe 7 or 8 books on the country and the conflict, and in addition to just reading the news, talk to an office-mate who is a Tajik with an Uncle very high up in the Northern Alliance. I make no claims at being an expert, but I wager I know more than most of the folks crowing in this thread about things they barely understand.
What is your friend`s position regarding the US presence? And civilian casualties?

LOL.

You must be reading Pravda, too!
I used to, when it was still a propaganda tool for the Kremlin :)

You know as little about Russia (USSR, BTW) and its history as you do about the topic here. Russia, as you call them, were meddling with the US when the US thought it was an ally. A good book to see is The Sword and the Shield, which has pages of operations and campaigns against the US by the Soviets, who thoroughly penetrated the American govt. in the late 30s and early 40s.
Thanks.

In the same breath you mention Russia not meddling you mention Georgia, a place where they most definitely meddle. Please continue. You are making an ass of yourself. You need no help from me.
Does the US meddle in Mexico. Being kinda right ON the border and sharing a LONG history? Suppose Russia approached Mexico and asked permission to establish military bases and interceptor missiles on Mexican soil as a counter measure against rogue states like New Zealand.

So why the support for US and govt. troops?

And who is fighting the Taliban, much of which is foreign and therefore invading, if everyone has "united" against the US?
Support for the US occupation is far from definitive. Instability, and lack of a cohesive central government has created inter tribal conflict.

So are the UN and Nato -- both of whom support the invasion -- equally as misguided and nefarious?
It was not that simple, and the word "support" is a little tenuous.

Like Ice, you live in fantasy world where you refuse to acknowledge that Afghanistan was Al Qaeda's sanctuary and the Taliban its ally. You refuse to acknowledge the ties between the two groups. Nobody, at least nobody with a brain, has accused the Taliban of direct involvement in the attacks, because there was none. But to pretend they are completely blameless --given the ties and support and sanctuary -- is convenient logic created by people like you to fit preordained conclusions.
How many individuals in Afghanistan with proven ties to Al Qaeda, and subsequently PROVEN ties to the Taliban, have been been apprehended and found guilty of terrorist attacks against the US?

They are fighting a just war, and pretty much everyone other than fringe, hate-America Leftists like yourself agree on this point. Even Barrack Obama called it the right war.
Barack Obama is no measure of justice. I would look to those that have a truer sense of JUST.

Perhaps it is right to ignore Afghans who have been struggling for freedom and women’s rights for many years, and to assign responsibility for their country’s future to foreigners whose record in this regard is less than distinguished. Perhaps, but it does not seem entirely obvious.

The approach favored by Afghans who were ignored had considerable support in much of the world. Many in the South would surely have endorsed the recommendations of the UN representative of the Arab Women’s Solidarity Association: “providing the Taliban with evidence (as it has requested) that links bin Laden to the September 11 attacks, employing diplomatic pressures to extradite him, and prosecuting terrorists through international tribunals,” and generally adhering to international law, following precedents that exist even in much more severe cases of international terrorism. Adherence to international law had scattered support in the West as well, including the preeminent Anglo-American military historian Michael Howard, who delivered a “scathing attack” on the bombardment, calling instead for an international “police operation” and international court rather than “trying to eradicate cancer cells with a blow torch.

Washington’s refusal to call for extradition of the suspected criminals, or to provide the evidence that was requested, was entirely open, and generally approved. Its own refusal to extradite criminals remains effectively secret, however. Noam Chomsky writing in early 2002 - http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20020201.htm

Oh, Diamondhearts said so.
Yes. :)

That makes it gospel right? He speaks for Afghanistan whenever he isn't speaking for the entire Muslim world, so we should all stop and listen to his incoherent babble, right? :rolleyes:
Strange that some of us find his posts incredibly COHERENT.

You know what you know. You are far from the final authority on this topic.

And I never set myself up was one.

The difference between you and I is that you are repeatedly stating things that can be demonstrated to be completely untrue, and yet, you present these "conclusions" as fact.


War creates criminals. The guilty party is the one who created the war.

So that would be the Taliban and Al Qaeda then?


That is telling, a sense of arrogant righteousness. We can`t be wrong, can we?

No, we can be wrong -- and what's more we have been.

I would not, for example, hesitate to say the US was "wrong" to invade Iraq. And looking further back, Vietnam was "wrong," but I can understand why that "wrong" was chosen and am less critical of the decision there and more critical of the way it was prosecuted, having been chosen.

The important point is that just because I see something in the past as "right" and you see it as "wrong" has nothing to do with "arrogance" and "righteousness" and everything to do with our differing ideologies. You will get no "my country right or wrong" from me, and anyone who reads my posts will be aware of this.


What the hell was the US doing there in the first place? The constant meddling in far away nations with subsequent negative impact on the average citizen is my issue.

They were helping a beleaguered people oppose a tyrannical and evil empire that had invaded them. Now, of course, the US was doing this primarily for its own purposes, but one should never lose site of the fact that it was the "Russians," as you called them, who were the aggressor and who were doing the meddling and not the Americans.

What's more you need to broaden your horizons and check your ideology at the door. Or to be more precise, the US did a lot of foolish things in the Cold War, but it also ensured the safety and security of a great many people who had neither the will, money or ability to do so for themselves. Hate the US all you like, but somebody had to dance with the Russian bear, and you should be glad we did and that we won.


What is your friend`s position regarding the US presence? And civilian casualties?

I saw him, once, stand up and berate George H.W. Bush for leaving Afghanistan to its own devices in the early 90s and doing nothing to stop or slow the Civil War there that the US helped create by leaving (an example of how doing nothing -- or not meddling -- is not always the right thing to do). He then argued that the US needed to stay this time or educated people like himself who were trying to rebuild the nation would all be killed by religious fanatics as the country slipped back into tribal warfare. Nasir is a smart, educated and honest person. He leaves in a few weeks, with a pregnant wife, to work for something that resembles the Afghan govt.'s development agency. He does not want the US to leave.


Does the US meddle in Mexico.

You need to define meddle. The US does plenty of things with Mexico, many of them in Mexican territory. But it does not threaten Mexico and pull the sort of capers Russia does to its neighbors (shutting off oil, rigging elections, cyberattacks, etc.)


Support for the US occupation is far from definitive. Instability, and lack of a cohesive central government has created inter tribal conflict.

I never said it was definitive. My claim is that the majority still support US troops in the country. And nobody "created" inter-tribal conflict in Afghanistan. It has been there for hundreds of years.


It was not that simple, and the word "support" is a little tenuous.

Bullshit. Both entities supported the US attack on Afghanistan. NATO provided troops and the UN has provided cash for rebuilding and for the new govt. and its programs. Both were engaged from the very beginning. Both are still there now. See this is a problem for the whiners like you. The international community, outside the Leftist-hate-crowd, support the mission there and are actively involved. This does not square with your appreciation of reality.


How many individuals in Afghanistan with proven ties to Al Qaeda, and subsequently PROVEN ties to the Taliban, have been been apprehended and found guilty of terrorist attacks against the US?

I don't know, offhand. Don't care, either. The symbiotic relationship between Al Qaeda and the Taliban is documented fairly thoroughly, like in those books I keep telling you to read (Ghost Wars, Taliban, Looming Tower). The fact the latter did not know or participate in 9/11 in no way, shape or form absolves those ties and somehow makes them a blameless party. Al Qaeda was given a safe haven from prosecution, weapons and bases in Afghanistan. This infrastructure allowed it to organize and plan numerous attacks throughout the world.


Barack Obama is no measure of justice. I would look to those that have a truer sense of JUST.

Like Noam Chomsky?

Give me a break.

Noam Chomsky is a joke to everyone but radical Leftists like yourself. I fully expect him to back you up. One kooky opinion follows the other. . .

And I am not going to do the whole extradition argument again. It's just a waste of time. You Leftists hang so many hats on that peg. The problem is it just won't hold any of them -- if you really examined the facts and had a political appreciation that isn't warped.

[QUOTE=StrawDog;2338168] Strange that some of us find his posts incredibly COHERENT.

Not strange. You share the same delusions as he does. I never even bother to read him. Oh, I used to. But then I learned there is little to learn there, once you have acquainted yourself with his brand of foolishness. The sad thing is there a lot of people out there who think as he does. Apparently, you are one of them.

No, it would become a haven (again) for bad guys. We need to win this one.

its been to fucked up too win.

We have a new strategy there under a new president. I think it will take a good 3-5 years to make progress, but it's not impossible.

SO what's your solution, PJ?

Pretend you're president for a day: Do you just walk away, cross your fingers and hope the SERIOUS killing does not start?

SO what's your solution, PJ?

Pretend you're president for a day: Do you just walk away, cross your fingers and hope the SERIOUS killing does not start?

I don't know. There may not be one.

We have a new strategy there under a new president. I think it will take a good 3-5 years to make progress, but it's not impossible.
Since the US invasion of Afghanistan until today every Afghan president has been a US puppet and picked by the US . Afghanistan is a US colony controlled by the US . Grow up.....:shrug:.

I don't know. There may not be one.

I applaud you for being honest, but you should realize, you don't get to say you do not know when you are a policymaker.


Since the US invasion of Afghanistan until today every Afghan president has been a US puppet and picked by the US . Afghanistan is a US colony controlled by the US . Grow up.....:shrug:.

Spare us.

Buy a dictionary and look up the word "colony."

I applaud you for being honest, but you should realize, you don't get to say you do not know when you are a policymaker.



Spare us.

Buy a dictionary and look up the word "colony."

Robots with loads of dictionaries will never understand a thing.....just like YOU...:shrug:.

So that would be the Taliban and Al Qaeda then?
Hardly. Al Qaeda may be a criminal organization, but the Taliban did not conduct ONE single proven military or criminal act against the US. Nor did the Taliban INITIATE war.

No, we can be wrong -- and what's more we have been.

I would not, for example, hesitate to say the US was "wrong" to invade Iraq. And looking further back, Vietnam was "wrong," but I can understand why that "wrong" was chosen and am less critical of the decision there and more critical of the way it was prosecuted, having been chosen.

The important point is that just because I see something in the past as "right" and you see it as "wrong" has nothing to do with "arrogance" and "righteousness" and everything to do with our differing ideologies. You will get no "my country right or wrong" from me, and anyone who reads my posts will be aware of this.
OK. We differ.

They were helping a beleaguered people oppose a tyrannical and evil empire that had invaded them. Now, of course, the US was doing this primarily for its own purposes, but one should never lose site of the fact that it was the "Russians," as you called them, who were the aggressor and who were doing the meddling and not the Americans.
Agreed. Poor Afghans, unbroken occupation.

What's more you need to broaden your horizons and check your ideology at the door. Or to be more precise, the US did a lot of foolish things in the Cold War, but it also ensured the safety and security of a great many people who had neither the will, money or ability to do so for themselves. Hate the US all you like, but somebody had to dance with the Russian bear, and you should be glad we did and that we won.
Is Cuba still a threat? The US and Russia are mutually to blame for the Cold War. Strangely the world felt safer back then.

I saw him, once, stand up and berate George H.W. Bush for leaving Afghanistan to its own devices in the early 90s and doing nothing to stop or slow the Civil War there that the US helped create by leaving (an example of how doing nothing -- or not meddling -- is not always the right thing to do). He then argued that the US needed to stay this time or educated people like himself who were trying to rebuild the nation would all be killed by religious fanatics as the country slipped back into tribal warfare. Nasir is a smart, educated and honest person. He leaves in a few weeks, with a pregnant wife, to work for something that resembles the Afghan govt.'s development agency. He does not want the US to leave.
Thanks for that. This is interesting.

You need to define meddle. The US does plenty of things with Mexico, many of them in Mexican territory. But it does not threaten Mexico and pull the sort of capers Russia does to its neighbors (shutting off oil, rigging elections, cyberattacks, etc.)
Alleged actions. Surely you don`t think gas should be free? There are always two sides to the story. Ukraine were playing games. They suffered the consequences. Rigging elections? Doesn`t the US have the colorful monopoly on that one?

I never said it was definitive. My claim is that the majority still support US troops in the country. And nobody "created" inter-tribal conflict in Afghanistan. It has been there for hundreds of years.
Yes, due to foreign occupations fomenting instability.

Bullshit. Both entities supported the US attack on Afghanistan. NATO provided troops and the UN has provided cash for rebuilding and for the new govt. and its programs. Both were engaged from the very beginning. Both are still there now. See this is a problem for the whiners like you. The international community, outside the Leftist-hate-crowd, support the mission there and are actively involved. This does not square with your appreciation of reality.
Of course those that condone, justify and promote war, regardless of civilian casualties, and damage to infrastructure to eradicate some hypothetical "boogeyman raghead threat to global peace and security" appreciate the finer points of reality? :)

I don't know, offhand. Don't care, either. The symbiotic relationship between Al Qaeda and the Taliban is documented fairly thoroughly, like in those books I keep telling you to read (Ghost Wars, Taliban, Looming Tower). The fact the latter did not know or participate in 9/11 in no way, shape or form absolves those ties and somehow makes them a blameless party. Al Qaeda was given a safe haven from prosecution, weapons and bases in Afghanistan. This infrastructure allowed it to organize and plan numerous attacks throughout the world.
Well there you go. Because they can be counted on ONE hand.

Like Noam Chomsky?

Give me a break.

Noam Chomsky is a joke to everyone but radical Leftists like yourself. I fully expect him to back you up. One kooky opinion follows the other. . .
The facts contained in his articles, speak for themselves. What you cannot DENY is that this approach:

“providing the Taliban with evidence (as it has requested) that links bin Laden to the September 11 attacks, employing diplomatic pressures to extradite him, and prosecuting terrorists through international tribunals,” and generally adhering to international law, following precedents that exist even in much more severe cases of international terrorism. was rejected OUT of HAND. Can you provide one good reason why this approach was not pursued?

And I am not going to do the whole extradition argument again. It's just a waste of time. You Leftists hang so many hats on that peg. The problem is it just won't hold any of them -- if you really examined the facts and had a political appreciation that isn't warped.
That is just ONE of a series of solid pegs my friend.

Not strange. You share the same delusions as he does. I never even bother to read him. Oh, I used to. But then I learned there is little to learn there, once you have acquainted yourself with his brand of foolishness. The sad thing is there a lot of people out there who think as he does. Apparently, you are one of them.
Well that explains it. If you don`t read it, I don`t think you can really comment can you? Did his patriotic fervor and sense of injustice and Western incomprehension of the realities on the ground and which perhaps conflicted with your reading list disturb you?

Hardly. Al Qaeda may be a criminal organization, but the Taliban did not conduct ONE single proven military or criminal act against the US. Nor did the Taliban INITIATE war.

The Taliban initiated a war. It attacked the ruling parties in Afghanistan, largely with foreign fighters and foreign money -- and it continues to do so, under the same conditions.

Al Qaeda is more than a criminal organization, it is a paramilitary terrorist group that has declared open warfare on the US. You don't go after such people in such places as Afghanistan with lawyers and words and judges in robes.


Is Cuba still a threat?

A strange question here, but I will answer: No, not anymore, and my stance on Cuba has been softening for year, in part, because of what some members on this site have made me realize. However, people mythologize Cuba, and in doing so, overlook the role it played in all this "meddling" you seem to dislike. The Cubans sent men, money and war materials all over the world until the late 1980s.


The US and Russia are mutually to blame for the Cold War. Strangely the world felt safer back then.

The US was largely reactionary throughout much of the Cold War.

If you go back and read about Stalin, he was obsessed with Western plotting against him. Most of these plots were nonexistent. There was no will in the US, for example, to fight the Soviets after WW2, as Churchill and MI6 wanted to do (see Operation UNTHINKABLE). It was the Soviets who kept pushing and pushing that upped the ante. Even so, you had leaders like Eisenhower, who could remember working with the Soviets in WW2, trying as late as the mid 50s to push initiative like Open Skies to end or ease the Cold War. The problem, of course, is that you had a loon like Khrushchev on the other side and a corrupt and fearful party structure that would not be moved.


Alleged actions. Surely you don`t think gas should be free? There are always two sides to the story. Ukraine were playing games. They suffered the consequences. Rigging elections? Doesn`t the US have the colorful monopoly on that one?

They were all playing games, but nobody I know who looks at Eastern Europe applauds Russian behavior under Putin. And the US history of rigging elections is much less colorful than you might imagine. I can think of three cases, successful ones, off the top of my head: Japan, Italy and Greece in the 1950s.


Yes, due to foreign occupations fomenting instability.

That's debatable. Afghanistan has never really been a "country" as we like to think of them. From Alexander's day up until now, that territory has always been fractured alone ethnic lines.


Of course those that condone, justify and promote war, regardless of civilian casualties, and damage to infrastructure to eradicate some hypothetical "boogeyman raghead threat to global peace and security" appreciate the finer points of reality? :)


The facts contained in his articles, speak for themselves.

I don't question his facts (he's much to smart to lie). I question his biased assembly and presentation of them. I have read Chomsky and found him to be boring. I know what I am going to get with him, and the ideology, while interesting to a certain degree, is not terribly nuanced or persuasive. And it's all filtered through his hatred, which is palpable.


Can you provide one good reason why this approach was not pursued?

This is such a Holy Grail for the Left.

Look, the US and the Saudis had been trying to get the Taliban to deliver bin Laden for years. They were not interested.

After 9/11, they hemmed and hawed and started setting all kinds of stipulations they were in no position to ask for (not even being an official govt.) and basically were stalling. The US knew it had to move fast to catch these guys, who were already melting away into the mountains. It did not have time to negotiate for months, nor is there any reason the believe such negotiations would have produced anything. For starters, bin Laden was not under the Taliban's control. I mean, it was not like they could go get him and put him in a car and bring him to the US. He had an army of men around him and pretty much went where he wanted, and so long as he stayed out of the Taliban's way, they did not care. To think that the Taliban would have been able to secure OBL and actually extradite him is a fantasy.


Well that explains it. If you don`t read it, I don`t think you can really comment can you? Did his patriotic fervor and sense of injustice and Western incomprehension of the realities on the ground and which perhaps conflicted with your reading list disturb you?

I read enough to get the flavor.

I even argued with him for a few months, but then I realized what a waste of time it was. As for his fervor and whatnot, I don't know or care. I can't even remember what country he claims to live in (Syria?). Whichever it is, it is not Iraq or Afghanistan, so all he is doing is parroting what he sees on ME television. The fact he is "closer" to those places does not somehow make his opinion more noteworthy or valid.

Before 9/11 Afghanistan had a civil war . However the world was full of civil wars . The US and its allies started a huge barrage of propaganda and lies regarding Taliban and El Qaeda months before 9/11 . So the invasion of Afghanistan was well prepared politically months before 9/11 . El Qaeda and Taliban are just a bunch of silly pretexts for the US to made Afghanistan a colony . Some people ignore the fact that Afghanistan is a very poor nation and is no danger to the super power the USA . When Horny Bill Clinton had a disgrace problem with his mistress Monika Lewinsky he found some imaginary pretexts and attacked both Sudan and Afghanistan . In the US the human life is worthless and when the political heat strikes the missiles follow. What a banana republic it is !.

Mike, you embarrass yourself.

If you start to speak like an adult and express ideas worthy of consideration, then perhaps I will pay attention to you again. Until then, I will not.

Mike, you embarrass yourself.

If you start to speak like an adult and express ideas worthy of consideration, then perhaps I will pay attention to you again. Until then, I will not.
Try to educate yourself on world issues because you know zero% .

I'm sorry, is English your first language?

My answer is yes of course . Afghanistan should be a sovereign nation controlled by its own citizens and NOT by the US and their allies NATO .

It will be.

I applaud you for being honest, but you should realize, you don't get to say you do not know when you are a policymaker. Why not I would respect a leader who said he didn't know the answer to a question so long as i thought he was making an effort to find an answer.

Do people out there remember what rule was like when the Taliban ruled with its iron fist. The horrific deaths of women, mass graves with educated women and children filled to the brim and covered over dampening out the screams..Oh well guess you had to be there. Its easy to pass judgement when you have no idea of what its like in real life. The blood, gore, screams, and the cries. I would take the lesser evil people. For those of you who cast stones go and visit, take a stroll along the Taliban streets, I am sure you will be safe. Before you go, let me take an insurance policy out on you. I could use the money..And yes, been there and have done that stuff.

Do people out there remember what rule was like when the Taliban ruled with its iron fist. The horrific deaths of women, mass graves with educated women and children filled to the brim and covered over dampening out the screams..Oh well guess you had to be there. Its easy to pass judgement when you have no idea of what its like in real life. The blood, gore, screams, and the cries. I would take the lesser evil people. For those of you who cast stones go and visit, take a stroll along the Taliban streets, I am sure you will be safe. Before you go, let me take an insurance policy out on you. I could use the money..And yes, been there and have done that stuff.
This is just another piece of crap .
The US and its allies went to Afghanistan for their OWN interests and NOT for the interests of the Afghans .
Hiding the truth should be CRIMINAL .

My answer is yes of course . Afghanistan should be a sovereign nation controlled by its own citizens and NOT by the US and their allies NATO .

Funny how you went back to edit your initial post and the sloppy prose it exhibited. I like the PM by the way. Very mature.

Why not I would respect a leader who said he didn't know the answer to a question so long as i thought he was making an effort to find an answer.

I would, too.

But what I meant was, policymakers cannot do "nothing" and just let a problem spiral worse and worse. They have to make a decision.

I asked you what you would do, because a lot of folks in this thread run their mouths about the situation in Afghanistan, and in doing so, never face the reality of what should be done there. Instead, they make simplistic and naive statements that do not take into account the real-world outcomes.

After 9/11, they hemmed and hawed and started setting all kinds of stipulations they were in no position to ask for (not even being an official govt.) and basically were stalling. It takes thirty minutes to file an extradition request, and you can arm up for the invasion the whole time its reply is awaited. They were governing the country.
It did not have time to negotiate for months - Seven years later, that's kind of a sad joke, isn't it.

Al Qaeda is more than a criminal organization, it is a paramilitary terrorist group that has declared open warfare on the US. You don't go after such people in such places as Afghanistan with lawyers and words and judges in robes. You don't go after such people by jettisoning your laws, treaties, and common sense, either.


I asked you what you would do, because a lot of folks in this thread run their mouths about the situation in Afghanistan, and in doing so, never face the reality of what should be done there. Instead, they make simplistic and naive statements that do not take into account the real-world outcomes. Like this one, for example: "The US knew it had to move fast to catch these guys, who were already melting away into the mountains."

The US and Russia are mutually to blame for the Cold War. Strangely the world felt safer back then.

Not in my recollection. People used to build fallout shelters and stockpile dry goods in anticipation of the obliteration of human civilization, back then.

It takes thirty minutes to file an extradition request, and you can arm up for the invasion the whole time its reply is awaited. They were governing the country.

They were not governing the country, according to the entire world, save the two countries that recognized them. So how is a request made?

And you still haven't dealt with the actual logistics of handing someone over who they had limited control of.

Or the fact that such requests were made in the past and ignored.

Or the fact that the Taliban stalled and rebutted attempts after 9/11.


Seven years later, that's kind of a sad joke, isn't it.

No, it's the truth -- and for the reasons I stated. The fact you don't agree means fuck all to me. It's just your opinion.


You don't go after such people by jettisoning your laws, treaties, and common sense, either.

Sorry, but I have not seen that happen. Again, your bullshit opinion. You are welcome to it.


Like this one, for example: "The US knew it had to move fast to catch these guys, who were already melting away into the mountains."

That's what was happening -- factually. So I fail to see how it meets the criteria you think it does. Again, Ice. Come with something substantive. I tire of you trying to pick fights with little more than your ideology to back up your text. It's boring.

Not in my recollection. People used to build fallout shelters and stockpile dry goods in anticipation of the obliteration of human civilization, back then.

People never fell safe and secure due to human greed and selfishness that cause all kinds of trouble . It always seems that the strong one finds a pretext to invade the weaker one .

They were not governing the country, according to the entire world, save the two countries that recognized them. So how is a request made?

And you still haven't dealt with the actual logistics of handing someone over who they had limited control of.

Or the fact that such requests were made in the past and ignored.

Or the fact that the Taliban stalled and rebutted attempts after 9/11. Lessee: the Taliban are so involved and responsible for protecting OBL, giving him sanctuary, and abetting any terrorism on the planet connected with him, that we are justified in declaring war on them,

but they have so little contact with him or power over him that any thought of them capturing and delivering him is a "fantasy" not even worth the pro forma attempt.

Even their offers of delivery to allied countries, once provided evidence, are fantasy - they had no such ability, and so we were right to avoid the usual diplomatic trap of agreeing and cornering them.

And so the various informal and lawless requests we were alleged to have made were based on fantasy, and the accounts of them rebuffing our evidence-free demands in the three weeks after 9/11 before we launched the invasion were just propaganda.

It's all speculation, of course, but one can't help but wonder what happened to whomever Unocal was so eager to sign pipeline contracts with, as if they were governing the place and logistically capable. Is it that a pipeline contract is not as serious as an extradition request, or what?

Seven years later, that's kind of a sad joke, isn't it.
”
No, it's the truth -- and for the reasons I stated. The fact you don't agree means fuck all to me. Your reading comprehension glitches can still surprise me, even after all this time.

Many intelligent observers think that Both Osama Bin Laden and his deputy Dr Hyman Zawahiri are dead and died in the early days of the war . As far as El Qaeda there were dozens and not thousands . Among people who said Bin Laden was killed a long time ago : President Musharraf, a former French defence minister....etc .

Osama Bin Laden was suffering from kidney problems and had two dialysis machine . It will be impoosible for him to survive in the mountains of Afghanistan . According to the US there were lots of people working for them inside Afghanistan before their invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 . As far as Taliban , they were living a primitive life and could not possibly hide Bin Laden .

It is thought he is in Pakistan in the tribal areas. Anyway Al Quida still exists with or without him.

Lessee: the Taliban are so involved and responsible for protecting OBL, giving him sanctuary, and abetting any terrorism on the planet connected with him, that we are justified in declaring war on them, but they have so little contact with him or power over him that any thought of them capturing and delivering him is a "fantasy" not even worth the pro forma attempt.

Why is this difficult to grasp?

The Taliban gave OBL sanctuary. They refused numerous US and Saudi efforts to extradite, and while those refusals were being made, OBL authorized numerous terrorist attacks. In common legal language, you bet your ass that's harboring and abetting.

I never said that had "little" contact with him, I said they did not have complete control over him. They didn't. Even if they wanted to deliver him on Sept. 12, it's highly unlikely they could have laid their hands on him, as he had already fled to Tora Bora, and even less likely they would have committed the necessary troops to attack his men and retrieve him.

What's more, you seem to think it's acceptable and reasonable, politically and otherwise, for America to sit back and wait and hope for the Taliban -- an extremely hostile and radical bunch of dudes -- to do the above. Yes, Ice. I call that a dumb fantasy. D-U-M-B. And it's one people like you invented to justify their bullshit claims about pipelines and backroom deals.


Even their offers of delivery to allied countries, once provided evidence, are fantasy - they had no such ability, and so we were right to avoid the usual diplomatic trap of agreeing and cornering them.

We wanted him.

End of story.

The Taliban was in the position to request or demand nothing.

It was unacceptable for him to be delivered to arcane legal systems in places like Saudi Arabia. I mean, it's funny to me. You wail and moan about Saudi involvement in 9/11, then you turn around and think it reasonable to extradite him there? Get your thoughts straight. . .


It's all speculation, of course, but one can't help but wonder what happened to whomever Unocal was so eager to sign pipeline contracts with, as if they were governing the place and logistically capable. Is it that a pipeline contract is not as serious as an extradition request, or what?

You seem to forget that UNOCAL and other entities all stopped their negotiations precisely because they went nowhere and the Taliban could never deliver on any of their claims (see Rashid). So your point here only proves my arguments. Thanks.


Your reading comprehension glitches can still surprise me, even after all this time.

Your bullshit doesn't surprise me anymore. I am used to it and I know you for exactly what you are.

You seem to forget that UNOCAL and other entities all stopped their negotiations precisely because they went nowhere and the Taliban could never deliver Is that the story now? Interesting. Doesn't match the sequence of events (http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/119.html ), but saves face among the amnesiacs.


The Taliban gave OBL sanctuary. They refused numerous US and Saudi efforts to extradite, and while those refusals were being made, OBL authorized numerous terrorist attacks. In common legal language, you bet your ass that's harboring and abetting. The law is sometimes convenient, isn't it? A few sentences ago, you were claiming they had no means of controlling OBL's activities or complying with requests for extradition.

Legal wording for justification you find helpful, but legally speaking neither the US - nor the Saudis - ever made any effort at all to "extradite" OBL, before or after 9/11. No legal extradition request was ever made. In common legal language, they were in contempt of court.


It was unacceptable for him to be delivered to arcane legal systems in places like Saudi Arabia. Our "ally", Saudi Arabia, didn't want him - that was their problem. So accepting the offer from the Taliban corners everyone we allegedly want cornered in one step.


I never said that had "little" contact with him, I said they did not have complete control over him. They didn't. Even if they wanted to deliver him on Sept. 12, it's highly unlikely they could have laid their hands on him, as he had already fled to Tora Bora, and even less likely they would have committed the necessary troops to attack his men and retrieve him. So there was no rush to "catch him before he faded away into the mountains" - he'd already gone there, and the Taliban was not providing sanctuary and so forth any more.

Which brings up the actual motive of invading, without even an attempt to either coopt the Taliban or split it via diplomatic means, using OBL hung on their necks like an albatross and their pipeline deals heading south.

Or was the problem that their pipeline deals, if saved, were not with Unocal?

The Taliban initiated a war. It attacked the ruling parties in Afghanistan, largely with foreign fighters and foreign money -- and it continues to do so, under the same conditions.
The Taliban did not attack the US.

Al Qaeda is more than a criminal organization, it is a paramilitary terrorist group that has declared open warfare on the US. You don't go after such people in such places as Afghanistan with lawyers and words and judges in robes.
So, better yet, one invades an entire nation to apprehend a handful of criminals?

A strange question here, but I will answer: No, not anymore, and my stance on Cuba has been softening for year, in part, because of what some members on this site have made me realize. However, people mythologize Cuba, and in doing so, overlook the role it played in all this "meddling" you seem to dislike. The Cubans sent men, money and war materials all over the world until the late 1980s.
Yes, they certainly got around. Perhaps its time for the US to normalize relations.

The US was largely reactionary throughout much of the Cold War.
If you go back and read about Stalin, he was obsessed with Western plotting against him. Most of these plots were nonexistent. There was no will in the US, for example, to fight the Soviets after WW2, as Churchill and MI6 wanted to do (see Operation UNTHINKABLE). It was the Soviets who kept pushing and pushing that upped the ante. Even so, you had leaders like Eisenhower, who could remember working with the Soviets in WW2, trying as late as the mid 50s to push initiative like Open Skies to end or ease the Cold War. The problem, of course, is that you had a loon like Khrushchev on the other side and a corrupt and fearful party structure that would not be moved.
Hm. No will? What do you think Stalin would have thought if his intel provided him with this:

(pg.2) OBJECT
The overall or political object is to impose upon Russia, the will of the United States and the British Empire.
Even though the "will" of these two countries may be defined as no more than a square deal for Poland, that does not necessarily limit the military commitment.
A quick success might influence the Russians to submit to our will at least for the time being; but it might not. That is for the Russians to decide. If they want total war, they are in a position to have it." From the original document - "Operation Unthinkable: 'Russia: Threat to Western Civilization,'" British War Cabinet, Joint Planning Staff [Draft and Final Reports: 22 May, 8 June, and 11 July 1945], Public Record Office, CAB 120/691/109040 / 002 (http://www.history.neu.edu/PRO2/)

They were all playing games, but nobody I know who looks at Eastern Europe applauds Russian behavior under Putin. And the US history of rigging elections is much less colorful than you might imagine. I can think of three cases, successful ones, off the top of my head: Japan, Italy and Greece in the 1950s.
Can you point out the instances you are referring to?

That's debatable. Afghanistan has never really been a "country" as we like to think of them. From Alexander's day up until now, that territory has always been fractured alone ethnic lines.
Yes, but that does not negate the sovereign nature of Afghanistan, and the FACT that internal issues are internal, and not a pretext for invasion.

I don't question his facts (he's much to smart to lie). I question his biased assembly and presentation of them. I have read Chomsky and found him to be boring. I know what I am going to get with him, and the ideology, while interesting to a certain degree, is not terribly nuanced or persuasive. And it's all filtered through his hatred, which is palpable.
He is a humanist, deals in facts, and brings attention to disinformation and skew. That of course does not make him easier to read. :)

This is such a Holy Grail for the Left.
Look, the US and the Saudis had been trying to get the Taliban to deliver bin Laden for years. They were not interested.
On what grounds should they have delivered him?

After 9/11, they hemmed and hawed and started setting all kinds of stipulations they were in no position to ask for (not even being an official govt.) and basically were stalling. The US knew it had to move fast to catch these guys, who were already melting away into the mountains. It did not have time to negotiate for months, nor is there any reason the believe such negotiations would have produced anything. For starters, bin Laden was not under the Taliban's control. I mean, it was not like they could go get him and put him in a car and bring him to the US. He had an army of men around him and pretty much went where he wanted, and so long as he stayed out of the Taliban's way, they did not care. To think that the Taliban would have been able to secure OBL and actually extradite him is a fantasy.
They certainly moved fast. Sadly, they did not catch these guys, and then changed the agenda to catch the Taliban instead. Either way the fact remains, the diplomatic route was rejected out of hand. The outcome could have been vastly different.

I read enough to get the flavor.
I even argued with him for a few months, but then I realized what a waste of time it was. As for his fervor and whatnot, I don't know or care. I can't even remember what country he claims to live in (Syria?). Whichever it is, it is not Iraq or Afghanistan, so all he is doing is parroting what he sees on ME television. The fact he is "closer" to those places does not somehow make his opinion more noteworthy or valid.
His understanding of the situation was realistic and accurate.

In my opinion OBL had no chance of running anywhere since the US had so many people working for them inside Afghanistan long before 9/11. However catching and bringing an innocent person to court is risky to the whole Administration . No evidence was ever given that OBL caused the tragic events of 9/11 . All we heard were lies and propaganda from both the Administration and their supporters in the media circles . :D .

Besides him admitting as such on tape?

Besides him admitting as such on tape?
The tape was a fake one made by the CIA for war propaganda .

It was made by Osama Bin Laden for war propaganda.

It was made by Osama Bin Laden for war propaganda.

It was not the pic of OBL .
It was not the voice of OBL .
It was not the stupidity of OBL .
It was made by the C.I.A. for war propaganda and to justify an unjust war .
You can not judge an innocent man because you can not predict the outcome of a trial . So the Administration never had a plan to capture and put OBL on trial . 9/11 is a conspiracy and an inside job .

i don't think afganistan ever was a treath

It was made by Osama Bin Laden for war propaganda.

osama bin laden is X cia of the US of A

hmmz

Besides him admitting as such on tape?

like i said in another topic


the illuminatie can tell us anything
and as soon as it is in the newspaper or on the TV news YOU WILL BELIEVE!!!

i recommend not to watch TV

like i said in another topic


the illuminatie can tell us anything
and as soon as it is in the newspaper or on the TV news YOU WILL BELIEVE!!!

i recommend not to watch TV
Sad enough....the MASSES are brainwashed by a dishonest Administration and provocative frenzy and zealous media . When dealing with both the Administration and the media be very careful as they spread lies and propaganda all the time .

osama bin laden is X cia of the US of A

hmmz

Not true, the CIA supported Mujahideen groups not Osama directly.

Look up Tim Osman

Not true, the CIA supported Mujahideen groups not Osama directly.
When OBL was fighting the Soviets he and his followers were called " Mujaheddin ". Once the Soviets were kicked out, OBL and his group were called " terrorists ". As always : political games and political gains.....:D .

So what's the problem with that?

So what's the problem with that?
It seems that the US uses people and then just hangs them dry....from friends to foes...;) .

And? Those people turned against us for ideological reasons.

So what's the problem with that? Betrayal of allies is not generally acceptable, to Americans. Neither is using people as a means, at their expense and risk, with deception.

So it involves lying to Americans, as well. Building an entire foreign policy on lies and deceptions of one's own citizenry by one's own government has a poor prognosis, if freedom and all that good stuff is a desired state in perpetuity.

Betrayal of allies is not generally acceptable, to Americans. Neither is using people as a means, at their expense and risk, with deception.

So it involves lying to Americans, as well. Building an entire foreign policy on lies and deceptions of one's own citizenry by one's own government has a poor prognosis, if freedom and all that good stuff is a desired state in perpetuity.
Like the CIA lies and betrayal regarding rendition (one example) the British government are dealing with now. No, not acceptable.

Betrayal of allies is not generally acceptable, to Americans. Neither is using people as a means, at their expense and risk, with deception.

So it involves lying to Americans, as well. Building an entire foreign policy on lies and deceptions of one's own citizenry by one's own government has a poor prognosis, if freedom and all that good stuff is a desired state in perpetuity.

Did we betray the Mujahedeen? How?

It would have been a good idea to invest more in Afghani infrastructure, but nation building wasn't exactly on the Republican agenda. If anything we gave them a false sense of power. They thought God was on their side, but it was only technology.

Betrayal of allies is not generally acceptable, to Americans. Neither is using people as a means, at their expense and risk, with deception.

So it involves lying to Americans, as well. Building an entire foreign policy on lies and deceptions of one's own citizenry by one's own government has a poor prognosis, if freedom and all that good stuff is a desired state in perpetuity.

bullshit it isn't we do it all the time.

Except for ridiculous amount of aid given to Israel annually; that seems rather biased for a nation that is supposed to be non-interventionalist and isolationist.

bullshit it isn't we do it all the time.

And it is done to us all the time.

Except for ridiculous amount of aid given to Israel annually; that seems rather biased for a nation that is supposed to be non-interventionalist and isolationist.

Sorry, which nation is it that is supposed to be non-interventionist and isolationist?

And the annual aid to Israel is matched by the annual aid to Egypt, Jordan and Palestine (and dwarfed by the annual aid to Iraq or Afghanistan). So the bias, such as it is, appears to be for the region as a whole, rather than for a particular country.

And? Those people turned against us for ideological reasons.
I think the USA turned against them because they were poor and could not defend themselves . The US policy is to invent excuses against sovereign countries, incite and bring sanctions against them and when they have nothing , the US just goes ahead and attacks them . It is a long planned process .

Sorry, which nation is it that is supposed to be non-interventionist and isolationist? America


And the annual aid to Israel is matched by the annual aid to Egypt, Jordan and Palestine (and dwarfed by the annual aid to Iraq or Afghanistan). So the bias, such as it is, appears to be for the region as a whole, rather than for a particular country.
Actually they only support Egypt and Jordan, and Iraq And Afghan because they want puppet governments

America


Actually they only support Egypt and Jordan, and Iraq And Afghan because they want puppet governments

Actually the US has the biggest debt in the whole world . This debt will never ever be paid as it is too much . Even just paying the interest on this debt is a huge problem !!.

Actually the US has the biggest debt in the whole world . This debt will never ever be paid as it is too much . Even just paying the interest on this debt is a huge problem !!.

OK...what does that have to do with what I just said?

OK...what does that have to do with what I just said?
It just means they are not throwing the money away as they pretend....they steal oil and resources from other nations . :D .

It just means they are not throwing the money away as they pretend....they steal oil and resources from other nations . .

Obviously, this is a well-known fact. And the worst part is, the criminals in Afghanistan and Iraq, the high command, are just going to walk away without any punishment.

I think the USA turned against them because they were poor and could not defend themselves . The US policy is to invent excuses against sovereign countries, incite and bring sanctions against them and when they have nothing , the US just goes ahead and attacks them . It is a long planned process .

How? We didn't invade Afghanistan until long after the inception of Bin Laden's organization.

How? We didn't invade Afghanistan until long after the inception of Bin Laden's organization.
The invasion was in planning for a long time before 9/11 with all the propaganda about OBL and the Taliban . Even NATO allies were spreading too much propaganda such as having women with burkas appear in front of committees in their own countries which has nothing to to do with them , the media at their peaks of misrepresentation of facts.... . The burkas issue is an interior issue but the European Union had hearings about it .
No one went to India and told them NOT to worship a cow or a monkey..... also there were no hearings in this regard as well.....:D .

Propaganda? Like the fact they bombed one of our warships in Yemen? Burkas? What in the world are you talking about? Do you know anything about the Muslim Brotherhood, or Sayyid Qutb? This was going on way before the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.

one of our warships in Yemen

If one of "their" warships was off the Hudson, what would be its fate?

The KKK would come pick them up and make them all squeal like pigs.

If one of "their" warships was off the Hudson, what would be its fate?

With Yemen's consent.

You mean the Yemen puppets protected by US troops consent/

Way to change the subject. Keep your panties on, consent of the current regime, so your notion that we would attack a foriegn warship docked in the US - WITH OUR CONSENT - is absurd.

You mean the Yemen puppets protected by US troops consent/
The Yemeni government was forced by the US to have American military bases on their soil . This is called " bullying in the first degree ". The US used Al Qaeda as a pretext to expand their military bases around the world .
Al Qaeda as the whole world knows it were dozens of people in Afghanistan .
They were either kicked out or were not welcome in their origin countries : Osama Bin Laden was kicked out from Saudi Arabia and his deputy Dr Ayman Zawahiri was kicked out from Egypt . Such cave people in remote Afghanistan were no danger to the strong super power the USA or to the rest of the world . Obviously most of them if not all of them were either captured or killed . But look.....the propaganda of the Administration and the media still continue without end............:).

They were obviously a danger, as they claimed responsibility for multiple bombings around the world.

America

News to me. What is this, the interwar period?



Actually they only support Egypt and Jordan, and Iraq And Afghan because they want puppet governments

Likewise Israel. So what? The money and guns still keep showing up, right?

They were obviously a danger, as they claimed responsibility for multiple bombings around the world.
We should be very careful with the videos we see on TV and other media outlets as most of them are made by the CIA for war propaganda purposes .

News to me. What is this, the interwar period?



Likewise Israel. So what? The money and guns still keep showing up, right?

They aren't supporting any of the countries actively at war with Israel...so they're biased. Obviously they favor Israel

Hardly non-interventionalist

The neo cons and the Zionists have a big say in the US foreign policy and therefore they affect the US directions and paths . Those who are at war with Israel have no strong lobby in Washington so they are called " terrorists " . ;) .

Syria and Lebanon are the only countries "at war" with Israel

Like N. and S. Korea, there is a ceasefire, but the war is not over; in this case Israel is N. Korea, evil and barbaric, and we are the righteous defenders of the Palestinian name