What is it? IYO? Other than humans.

What is it? IYO? Other than humans.
Nature.

Ref: Bacteria

They've been around longer than anyone else.

That's a real dynasty.

Proof that dumb but talented really does work. :D

Vote Dem.!

i vote for ants.

Same thing. :)

Of course.

Elephants.

dolphins are the smartest.
http://www.orbit.zkm.de/files/dream2.jpg

Elephants.
Damn I forgot those things had theory of mind.

Damn I forgot those things had theory of mind.

some of them barely self recognize themselves in mirrow.

Nobody thinks parrots are smart? Some can get as smart as a 4 year old.

Nobody thinks parrots are smart? Some can get as smart as a 4 year old.

they just repeat words and numbers

i mean you think they do math...by telling them 2 times 2...but all they do is remember that when you said that phrase u also said 4.

Apparently someone thinks they can understand what they're saying. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_grey_parrot#Mimicry_and_intelligence)
African grey parrots are particularly noted for their cognitive abilities, which are believed to have evolved as a consequence of their history of cooperative feeding on the ground in central Africa.

Irene Pepperberg's extensive research with captive African greys, especially the one known as Alex, has shown that these parrots are capable of associating human words with their meanings, at least to some extent. Ambitious claims of language use have also been made for another African grey, N'kisi, who has a vocabulary of over one thousand words and has demonstrated an impressive knowledge of half a dozen Congolese dialects.

Apparently someone thinks they can understand what they're saying. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_grey_parrot#Mimicry_and_intelligence)

to tell you the truth...i dont like parrots or birds for that matter...I am a cat type of person.

I'm undecided but here's a fascinating summary of the more reliable elephant studies:


Theory of Mind and Insight in Chimpanzees, Elephants, and Other Animals?: Elephant Cognition

http://www.is.wayne.edu/mnissani/ElephantCorner/conscrev.htm#_Elephant_Cognition

The only complete study of elephant cognition was conducted on a 5-year-old Asian female at the Munster Zoo. She faced two small wooden boxes whose lids were painted with two different patterns, for example., circle and cross, and had to remove the correct lid to get a food reward. It took her about 330 trials, over a period of several days, to consistently choose the reinforced pattern, e.g., the cross (Rensch, 1956, 1957). By the fourth single-pair discrimination task, she reached criterion on the 10th trial. After learning to discriminate between 20 symbol pairs, she performed superbly on a test that combined all 20. The test lasted several hours, yet her performance actually improved toward the end. A year later, her scores ranged from 63 to 100 percent—a scientific demonstration, Rensch says, of the adage that elephants never forget.

In a partial study, Leslie Squier (reported in Stevens, 1978) confirmed the elephant’s ability to learn a simple discrimination task and to remember it 8 years later, “a remarkable performance and one that many Homo sapiens might have difficulty emulating” (Markowitz, 1982). In another study, Povinelli (1989) reported that elephants do not recognize themselves in the mirror (an observation that we have confirmed with our two Asian elephants—Nissani and Hoefler-Nissani, 2002, unpublished observations). Thus, the few controlled experiments on record seem to lend credence to Carrington’s conclusion that “elephants are not sufficiently intelligent to grasp an idea easily or quickly in the early stages, but once it has penetrated to their somewhat slow brains it is virtually ineradicable.”

In contrast to the picture which emerges from these zoo studies, field observers of elephants in the wild are often more impressed by their minds (e.g., “the more we learn about elephants, the fainter the line we have drawn between man and other animals will become”—Poole, 1997). In one field study, McComb et al. (2000) found that an average female can recognize the contact calls of about 100 other females. Equally remarkable, the “legend” of coming to the aid of a wounded comrade is true. In one confirmed instance, when a bull was shot, two younger elephants came to his rescue and tried to lead him away (Denis, 1963; cf. Carrington, 1958). Romanes’ (1882) seemingly tall tale that, during an operation, “elephants behave like human beings, as if conscious that the operation was for their good, and the pain unavoidable,” is likewise probably true (Blashford-Snell and Lenska, 1997; Groning and Saller, 1999; Shand, 1995). Aelian’s fantastic 3rd century recount of an Ethiopian tale that “if one elephant sees another lying dead, it will not pass by without drawing up some earth with its trunk and casting it upon the corpse, as though it were performing some sacred and mysterious rite on behalf of their common nature” has been likewise confirmed by contemporary researchers. During drought, the African elephant is the only animal known to dig for water, and there is moreover an account of an elephant chewing bark to fashion a plug, using it to plug a water hole, and hiding the hole from other animals by covering it with sand (Gordon, 1966). In Burma (=Myanmar), according to one observer (Williams, 1950), raiding young elephants often stuff their bell with mud in order to avoid detection.

Elephants are proficient tool users (Chevalier-Skolnikoff and Liska, 1993; Hart and Hart, 1994). They often scratch themselves with sticks and break fences by piling logs—or even young elephants—over them. There are likewise many reliable accounts of elephants hurling objects (Chevalier-Skolnikoff and Liska, 1993; Wickler and Seibt, 1997). A 27-year-old bull, for instance, routinely concealed a rock in his trunk and hurled it at his keeper (Linden, 1999). Once the training of elephants in playing cricket or soccer is over, they “play the game with the enthusiasm of boys having a knock-up on the village green” (Carrington, 1958; I. T. Sanderson, 1962).

I have tried to confine my very partial account of the elephant’s mind to the more trustworthy, or to independently-corroborated, observations, omitting the more anecdotal, and even more fantastic, tales. Even so, the picture that emerges is of an animal whose mentality deserves closer scientific attention than it has so far received.
If only you could edit polls, eh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_grey_parrot#Mimicry_and_intelligence

Ambitious claims of language use have also been made for another African grey, N'kisi, who has a vocabulary of over one thousand words and has demonstrated an impressive knowledge of half a dozen Congolese dialects.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=61513

redarmy11...stop being samcdkey....say it in your own words...dont give ambiguous google text snaps and links...

Say what in my own words? And what is ambiguous about the 'text snaps' I provided? And what is a 'text snap'?

Edit: In the 2nd link (about N'kisi) I refer you to my 1st post. Thankyou.

And what is a 'text snap'?

its a new double word I invented...just now. u know like text snapshot...so its a text snap.

Nobody thinks parrots are smart? Some can get as smart as a 4 year old.
That's so insulting. Do you know how much a parrot has to deal with in it's day to day life? Finding food and water and digging in dirt for minerals with medicinal qualities, navigating through the social politics of flock life, etc.
Smartest thing I've ever seen a 4 year old do is pull it's pants down to shit.
It still shit into it's pants, but I suppose we should be impressed that it knew to pull them down.

Polar bears would be another candidate for smartest animal.

Individually, I think lots of animals are as smart as many humans, or smarter.
I mean many adult human beings have absolutely no conscious grasp on their reality, not retards either just normal people. Most aren't that bright.
Then on top of that they don't live very challenging lives which exercise the brain, and they're just kind of blissfully in a clouded daze 24 hours a day floating along.

Meanwhile there's some alpha wolf out there sniffing a moose's saliva remnants left on a branch and determining it's illnesses and making executive decisions as to when the pack should move in on this moose they've been keeping an eye on and deeply analysing comprehensively for the last 2 months.
I doubt there are many people here which are that on the ball, thinking strategically about such complex and serious matters.

i would add pigs too

dogs and cats, perhaps even gold fish - all three have trained the dumber humans to care for them.

We measure intelligence verbally, so it's hard to assess animals we can't talk to. That's why the ones at the top of our list are:

- Gorillas and chimpanzees, our closest cousins, who have learned American Sign Language.
- African Greys, who have demonstrated a rudimentary ability to use language, not merely mimicking what they hear (budgies and other psittacines also show promise).
- Cetaceans, who communicate with each other using sounds that may be primitive languages.

We may never establish good communication with whales and dolphins. Their view of the universe must be so much different from ours since they don't have hands to manipulate it. Primates and parrots do. Parrots are zygodactyl--each foot has two opposable digits--and combined with their beak they are as adept as a four-year-old child at manipulating their universe. Our view of the universe is probably more compatible with apes and parrots, giving us more to talk about.

Notice that apes, parrots and cetaceans all live in a three-dimensional environment. Up and down to them are not just the sky and the ground that constrain our two-dimensional world, they are places they can go. Their processing of sensory and kinesthetic data and their planning of motion requires far more complicated brain activity than an animal that can only move along the ground. It's been postulated that a three-dimensional environment nurtures high intelligence. It's no accident that we're apes and that the equally acrobatic rodents--who share a common ancestor with primates--are close on our heels in the maze.

Elephants, yes, an anomaly. They have no close relatives. They even have their own order, Proboscids, being neither Artiodactyls (even-toed hooved animals) like horses and pigs nor Perissodactyls (odd-toed hooved animals) like rhinoceroses. They evolved that prehensile nose, which combined with their physical strength gives them a substantial ability to manipulate their universe. So perhaps my theory still barely holds up. They have a physical attribute like swimming, flying, or climbing, that both promotes and supports intelligence.

Dogs were left out, so were elephants. Cats can do pretty much the same things like dogs, except they choose not to...(they also don't eat dogshit) :)

Anyway, as communication goes, the African parrot is the winner, I had a post on N'kisi, I am just lazy to find it. The second place goes to gorillas, with 300+ vocabulary. (or more, I forgot the exact number)

But not all intelligence can be measured just by the ability to communicate.
Thus it is possible that dolphins beat parrots and gorillas.

I still vote for cats, because they seem to be thinking most of the time...

Here is an interesting comparison about logical deduction done by dogs and cats, you tell me which one is smarter:

Dog: "Humans. They care for me, protect me, feed me. They must be gods."

Cat: "Humans. They care for me, protect me, feed me. I must be god!!"

Anyway, as communication goes, the African parrot is the winner, I had a post on N'kisi, I am just lazy to find it.
I found it for you.

The second place goes to gorillas, with 300+ vocabulary. (or more, I forgot the exact number)
Highly dubious also.

Koko (born July 4, 1971, in San Francisco, California) is the name of a captive, acculturated gorilla trained by Dr. Francine 'Penny' Patterson and other scientists at Stanford University to allegedly communicate with more than 1,000 signs based on American Sign Language, and understand approximately 2,000 words of spoken English. She has lived most of her life in Woodside, California, but plans for a move to a sanctuary at Maui, Hawaii are nearing attainment.

N'kisi had a vocabulary of about 950 words and used them in context, frequently in complete sentences, has approximated verb forms to maintain the correct tense (such as saying flied as the past tense of fly), and does not depend on learned phrases to communicate his thoughts. According to these sources, N'kisi is capable of understanding photographic images, and is able to name objects (within his vocabulary) appearing in a photo. He is also capable of inventing new terms for things he does not know words for.

Wikipedia is your friend...

Here is an interesting comparison about logical deduction done by dogs and cats, you tell me which one is smarter:

Dog: "Humans. They care for me, protect me, feed me. They must be gods."

Cat: "Humans. They care for me, protect me, feed me. I must be god!!"

haha so true

Just found this, I think 100 is a typo and it is more like 1000:

Alex is an African grey parrot. Since 1977 he has been the subject of a running experiment under animal psychologist Irene Pepperberg, initially at the University of Arizona and currently at Brandeis University.

Alex had a vocabulary of around 100 words as of 2000, [1] but is exceptional in that he appears to have understanding of what he says. For example, when Alex is shown an object and is asked about its shape, color, or material, he can label it correctly. If asked the difference between two objects, he will also answer that, but if there is no difference between the objects, he will say “none.” When he is tired of being tested, he will say “I’m gonna go away, ” and if the researcher displays annoyance, Alex tries to defuse it with the phrase, “I’m sorry.” If he says “Wanna banana”, but is offered a nut instead, he will stare in silence, ask for the banana again, or take the nut and throw it at the researcher. When asked how many objects of a particular color or a particular material are on a tray, he gives the correct answer approximately 80% of the time.

Speaking of nuts, N'kisi's tester is one, by all accounts:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2001-02-12-parrot.htm

http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies/Ofcom_full.html

Links to those others?

The question is to what extent these animals are simply 'parroting' rote-learned phrases in exchange for anticipated rewards. I'm not convinced that any of them show enough linguistic flexibility for us to say that they've truly learned anything.

Mice

Mice are the physical protrusions into our dimension of a race of hyperintelligent pan-dimensional beings who commissioned the construction of the Earth in order to find the Question to the Ultimate Answer of Life, the Universe, and Everything. As such, they are the most intelligent life forms on that planet.

In their home dimension, a popular sport is Brockian Ultra-Cricket, a horribly violent game which involves hitting people and running away, before apologising from some distance - preferably through a megaphone.

sorry couldn't resist;)

I think many animals are smart dophines, dogs, apes. It's important that they are social animals that life in groups so they know and learn how to interact...

I voted for gorillas & apes, but I think the mainstream view votes for chimps, which were not provided as a choice.

Whales and dolphins are given credit for intelligence due to the size of their brains, but complexity of the inrterconnections is probably a more significant factor.

I have never seen it suggested in a book, but I suspect that a large amount of the brain capacity of dolphins/whales is used up with the maintenance & use of extensive information about the geography of oceans floors. I have read that they seem to be able to navigate very accurately using a sonar sense.

The question is to what extent these animals are simply 'parroting' rote-learned phrases in exchange for anticipated rewards. I'm not convinced that any of them show enough linguistic flexibility for us to say that they've truly learned anything.What a ridiculous thing to say. The African Grey is putting together crude sentences. Within a couple of years he'll be speaking English better than George Bush.

Koko the gorilla has been studying longer and is even more impressive. When someone led a zebra past her quarters, an animal she had never seen before, she signed, "White tiger."

No one expects these creatures to develop a human-level mastery of language but that doesn't mean we have to gainsay their modest but impressive accomplishments. There is substantive communication taking place, and that's the point.

Rats.

- N

Links to those others?


I feel lazy today. I used Wikipedia: N'kisi,Alex,Koko

Also you can watch N'kisi on Youtube, the 12 mins part shown on Discovery channel. He has mindriding abilities too...

Dolphins, since they have sex for fun.

So do white trash teenagers.
Dolphin's have many intelligent behaviours, having sex for fun isn't one of them.

Dolphins, since they have sex for fun.That just came up on another thread. Dolphins are one of very few species of mammals (like humans) in which the females are capable of copulation when they're not in estrus. It may be that the males are having non-procreative sex for fun. But the females--who are the ones making the decisions--may be doing it just as a ritual for strengthening social bonds within the pod.

Also you can watch N'kisi on Youtube, the 12 mins part shown on Discovery channel. He has mindriding abilities too...
Grrr. Syzygys: read this (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1251352&postcount=4) post, which I've provided for you once already in this thread. Then read the links I also provided (the 2nd one in particular, and try not to skip bits). Then come back and talk to me about N'kisi. But don't mention N'kisi's 'mind-reading' abilities again until you've done that - 'k?

What a ridiculous thing to say. The African Grey is putting together crude sentences. Within a couple of years he'll be speaking English better than George Bush.

Koko the gorilla has been studying longer and is even more impressive. When someone led a zebra past her quarters, an animal she had never seen before, she signed, "White tiger."

No one expects these creatures to develop a human-level mastery of language but that doesn't mean we have to gainsay their modest but impressive accomplishments. There is substantive communication taking place, and that's the point.
Mr. Fraggle, there is room for some doubt. N'kisi the parrot has never been subject to a rigorous scientific test. Koko the gorilla has been studied a little but is generally too busy being a TV star and doing magazine shoots to show the rest of us the true extent of his her abilities. Here's a revealing extract from one of Koko's conversations:

http://www.csicop.org/articles/koko/

Question: Koko are you going to have a baby in the future?
Koko signs: Pink
Patterson explains: We had earlier discussion about colors today.

Question: Do you like to chat with people?
Koko signs: Fine nipple.
Patterson explains: Nipple rhymes with people, she doesn't sign people per se, she was trying to do a "sounds like..."

Question: Does she have hair? Or is it like fur?
Koko signs: Fine.
Patterson explains: She has fine hair.

Question: Koko, do you feel love from the humans who have raised you?
Koko signs: Lips, apple give me.
Patterson explains: People give her her favorite foods.

Now maybe Koko was having an off-day, I dunno - but I'd prefer to reserve judgement until Koko can be persuaded out of the TV studios, away from the loving arms of her trainers at the Gorilla Foundation, and into the cold, clinical environment of an independent laboratory. Let's not be cynical about Koko's considerable abilities - but let's try not to romanticise them either. Do bear in mind that her trainers have had 25 years to get Koko as smart as she is.

I thought koko was a she?

Um, some gender confusion in that post. Corrected.

Then read the links I also provided (the 2nd one in particular, and try not to skip bits). Then come back and talk to me about N'kisi. But don't mention N'kisi's 'mind-reading' abilities again until you've done that - 'k?

I clicked on it, but honestly, I skipped it. On the other hand I know what I SAW on TV.

By the way it isn't the mindreading part that is showing intelligence, but the usage of correct sentences in context.

Youtube N'kisi and watch the video...

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=N%27kisi

I watched it months ago. Now read the li... oh, never mind.

Basically, Rupert Sheldrake, the bloke who tested N'kisi and claimed all kinds of extraordinary abilities for it, is regarded as a bit of a crank. Sceptical researchers repeated his experiment with a different parrot and and achieved similar results - then pointed out some serious flaws in his methodology. I won't bore you with them here though. Read the link.

Dolphins are smarter than Chimpanzees...Dolphins can have real language...

The DOG

Cats are pretty damned smart.

I watched in the back yard as our young barn cat first tried to pick birds off the bird feeder by jumping up to get them. Then he tried to climb the skinny pole the feeder was on, unsuccesfully. Then he looked around, saw the tree, his head moved as he followed the tree from root in the ground to tip of the branch hanging over the bird feeder!!! He scampered up the tree, poised in the branch, another bird landed on the feeder, and the cat jumps out and freakin BODY-SLAMS THE BIRD OUT OF THE AIR to the ground and kills it.

It was so intense! But even cooler, it was like watching the gears in his head work. No doubt in my mind that cats have some serious problem solving skills, and i know instinct is at play, but i don't think instinct can teach a cat to solve a problem like this, i mean, it was kinda freaky how this cat seemed to piece observations together...

Dolphins are smarter than man.


...Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much... the wheel, New York, wars, and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely the dolphins believed themselves to be more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons.
(Douglas Adams)

The DOG

My dog eats catshit (it is dessert for him), rolls in any kind of shit and carcasses, and can die of eating chocolete or chickenbones. How smart is that?


Dolphins are smarter than man.


That doesn't say so much... :cool:

Meanwhile there's some alpha wolf out there sniffing a moose's saliva remnants left on a branch and determining it's illnesses and making executive decisions as to when the pack should move in on this moose they've been keeping an eye on and deeply analysing comprehensively for the last 2 months.

I doubt there are many people here which are that on the ball, thinking strategically about such complex and serious matters.

That's very well said and shows a depth of insight not too commonly seen. Why don't you repost this on the "Why Wolves Roll in Carcasses" Biology forum. I'll save it for later.

I think negroes are pretty smart, for animals.

I think negroes are pretty smart, for animals.

:bugeye: this is inappropriate.

:bugeye: this is inappropriate.

Says who, the homophobe?

Says who, the homophobe?

I got the infractions for my homophobic comments.

And you are a racist for saying that about black people.

Aren't all people animals? How do you know that wasn't a compliment? This dude's an animal, he'll beat your ass.

Aren't all people animals? How do you know that wasn't a compliment? This dude's an animal, he'll beat your ass.

the way he said it, was not a compliment. A normal way would be: black people just as the white and all other races are intelligent animal species. He used the word "animal" in its lowest meaning there...

the way he said it, was not a compliment. A normal compliment way would be: black people just as the white and all other races are intelligent animal species.

What if he was saying that black people are animals, referencing to the fact that black people in sports(at least in America) have a high ratio to black people within the general population?

What if I was mocking black people?
Other than black people, who the fuck cares?

What if he was saying that black people are animals, referencing to the fact that black people in sports(at least in America) have a high ratio to black people within the general population?

and you really think he meant that? :bugeye: guess what that was 2 points of infraction from me...and soon after he gave me 9 points of infraction for supposevly flaming and trolling. Now it shows that he/Roman has released his anger on me, for me pointing out that it is wrong what he has said.


I think negroes are pretty smart, for animals.

What if I was mocking black people?
Other than black people, who the fuck cares?

I, a white person, care for all races. I do not wish KKK minds to be back to USA.

Roman:
What if you were black? Then how could you be a racist for mocking black people?

Roman:
What if you were black? Then how could you be a racist for mocking black people?

Good point.
What if I was black?

Good point.
What if I was black?

it doesnt matter what skin the person is...and since you are asking me this...you do not understand this.

I wish I could give myself and infraction for being off topic.

Maybe I'll get a sock to keep me in line....

Cats.

They manage to be fed, lodged, generally taken care of without doing anything of value. Come to think of it, they're basically imitating most people...

But yeah, cats.

Cats rule, if only my appartment lease let me have one.

People are animals, true, but a racial clasification, biologically, is incorrect as genetic make up of humans are not divergent enough to merit clasification as a race. So that remark i find wrong on two different levels...

Squid or octopus supposedly have the intelligence of a 5 year old human child.
They can problem solve pretty well.

Pigs catch hell but have sensitive feelings.

Cats.

They manage to be fed, lodged, generally taken care of without doing anything of value. Come to think of it, they're basically imitating most people...

But yeah, cats.

Cats catch mice. How many people can do that barehanded?

Cats catch mice. How many people can do that barehanded?

How many people get to see mice on everyday basis? :bugeye: :p

Apparently you are never more than 2m away from a rat.

Apparently you are never more than 2m away from a rat.

...and in space?...rats love to chew on wires...there would be electrical discharge and malfunctions all the time...seems like astronauts are safe there...

How many poeple in space at the moment?

How many poeple in space at the moment?

7 perhaps...STS14 or 13...

Pigs catch hell but have sensitive feelings.Pigs are very intelligent. Not in a league with parrots and dolphins, but smarter than dogs and cats. Probably somewhere in the range of rats. We don't like to think about it because they are the most intelligent animal that we eat.

Pigs evolved to be scavengers and opportunistic feeders tend to develop high intelligence: raccoons, bears, crows. Even carp, for cold-blooded gill-breathers who don't have the chance to metabolize very much oxygen, they are amazingly bright.

Any animal that stays away from humans.

So do white trash teenagers.
Dolphin's have many intelligent behaviours, having sex for fun isn't one of them.

Point taken... but to me, it's never really quite as simple as that.

Pigs are very intelligent. Not in a league with parrots and dolphins, but smarter than dogs and cats. Probably somewhere in the range of rats. We don't like to think about it because they are the most intelligent animal that we eat.

Pigs evolved to be scavengers and opportunistic feeders tend to develop high intelligence: raccoons, bears, crows. Even carp, for cold-blooded gill-breathers who don't have the chance to metabolize very much oxygen, they are amazingly bright.
How the hell can pigs be smarter than dogs? And no, pigs are not the most intelligent animals we eat, Dogs are a delicacy in parts of Africa and Asia. When it comes to intelligence, animals are good in different things. Elephants and whales can vividly remember things 30 years apart. Dogs can smell miles away, can do tricks, and can read human emotion and intent. Apes are very nimble with their fingers, improvisation masters, and very good with reading emotions. Parots of cause can talk.

Hello.

"Besides humans, the ten most intelligent animals are: chimpanzees,
gorillas, orangutans, baboons, gibbons, monkeys (many species,
especially macaques), smaller toothed whales (especially killer whales
or Orcas), dolphins, elephants, and pigs."
source: Wildly Weird Facts, hosted by rarespecies.org
http://www.rarespecies.org/kids/weird.htm

Mice, dolphins, then humans - 42.

How the hell can pigs be smarter than dogs? And no, pigs are not the most intelligent animals we eat, Dogs are a delicacy in parts of Africa and Asia. When it comes to intelligence, animals are good in different things. Elephants and whales can vividly remember things 30 years apart. Dogs can smell miles away, can do tricks, and can read human emotion and intent. Apes are very nimble with their fingers, improvisation masters, and very good with reading emotions. Parots of cause can talk.

cat and dog is a delicacy in switzerland too. what i hate most is the eating of live monkey brain. People the world over have gone to remote places to try this and it makes me shudder. Those poor monkeys sense a horrible fate awaiting them and scream, panic. Then they are running, crying and screaming in the cage as people try to crack their head open with a hammer. Sick bastards. I saw a documentary on it and it hurt just watching it as if it was happening to a loved one.

are you a westerner who eats pork?? is that why you think pigs are less intelligent than dogs to quell your guilt?

hahahahahahha!hehehehehehehe!

How the hell can pigs be smarter than dogs?Uh... It's not easy to answer a question phrased that way, I'm not sure what you're driving at. In the past 25 years since pigs have become popular pets in the USA, their owners have discovered a very high level of intelligence. There are of course multiple species of "pigs" and they hardly all have the same traits. I believe the Vietnamese potbellied pig that was originally domesticated as a pet is a different species from the barnyard pig, but they have been hybridized so much that there's no telling what you've got. As for dogs, we have been breeding them domestically for about 12,000 years so we've developed "breeds" with different characteristics. Poodles are really bright, whereas my Lhasa Apsos have the IQ of a brick.
And no, pigs are not the most intelligent animals we eat, Dogs are a delicacy in parts of Africa and Asia.When I said "we" I meant "we." Dogs have been loyal, loving companions in our homes and partners in our work for 15,000 years: they are family members. For a tribe of humans to devolve to the level where it can regard these creatures as food is a local breakdown of the process of civilization. Most Americans are nauseated--as well as angered to the point of irrationality--by the idea of anyone eating dog meat.
When it comes to intelligence, animals are good in different things. Elephants and whales can vividly remember things 30 years apart. Dogs can smell miles away, can do tricks, and can read human emotion and intent. Apes are very nimble with their fingers, improvisation masters, and very good with reading emotions. Parrots of cause can talk.Not all of the things you mention are necessarily components of the intelligence vector but still your point is well taken.
are you a westerner who eats pork?? is that why you think pigs are less intelligent than dogs to quell your guilt?I have enough cognitive dissonance to handle the newfound knowledge that pigs are at least the intellectual equal of dogs and probably their superiors, yet continue to eat their flesh. I wonder how many more generations of westerners will be able to do that? It will be interesting to see how the "pet pig" phenomenon affects our eating habits. We've lately been educated to see pork as a healthier food than beef because the fat is less saturated.

When we first started seeing pet pigs 20 years ago I asked my wife, who has a habit of filling the house with a menagerie, whether she wanted one. She said, "No. Pork is the only red meat that I really like and if I had a pig as a member of the family I know I wouldn't be able to eat it any more. I don't want to spend the rest of my life eating chicken and fish."

Dogs can smell miles away,

And that would prove intelligence just how? We are talking here about learning ability not what they are born with....

By the way dogs use their excellent smelling ability to find other dog's shit and roll in it. Now that is a conrarian evidence... :)

And that would prove intelligence just how? We are talking here about learning ability not what they are born with....

By the way dogs use their excellent smelling ability to find other dog's shit and roll in it. Now that is a conrarian evidence... :) intelligence is the abilit to evaluate and solve complexities. Dogs can smell miles away, which tells them who and what is coming, in fact some studies have shown that dogs can evaluate things such as danger, emotion, and even health, just by smell alone. When you live in the wild, it certainly helps to have a nose for what's going on before you become part of it. This even helps when you live in the city. Basically any tool that helps in your intent and interest is intelligence, especially when animals are concerned, after all you don't expect a dogs to rise up in the morning and dress to work with newspapers and prescription glasses. Prey birds have magnified 20/20 panoramic vision from hundreds of feet above land, which is a form of intelligence because it helps than evaluate better. Cats have physiokinetics second to none, Cheetahs can sprint 70 miles/hr, a devastating problem for their pray, we humans use machines to get to that speed. Out of all these bad ass attributes, where the hell do you find ...(laughs)...pigs?

if you had a pig for a pet then you would know. Even barnyard pigs are intelligent. They are just not usually socialized to people but if you socialized them, they respond.

In the past 25 years since pigs have become popular pets in the USA, their owners have discovered a very high level of intelligence.
Humans have known the intelligence of pigs since the dawn of time, nothing exposes an animal's cunning and intelligence quite like hunting it does (at least with traditional methods). It's in the last 25 years (or probably 150 more like it) that people have been detached from this knowledge.
Athough perhaps people didn't realise how affectionate and personable they could be, and keeping them as pets has brought this to our attention.


Dogs have been loyal, loving companions in our homes and partners in our work for 15,000 years: they are family members. For a tribe of humans to devolve to the level where it can regard these creatures as food is a local breakdown of the process of civilization. Most Americans are nauseated--as well as angered to the point of irrationality--by the idea of anyone eating dog meat.
THANK YOU.
As I explained here to a roomful of ignorant morons;
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=60081
The eating dogs thread.
You really should have chimed in fraggle. You still can...

As I explained here to a roomful of ignorant morons
Plus me.

ESPECIALLY you...

Chatha, your argument is ridiculous. Ants can lift 100 times of their weight thus they must be intelligent. Bats can radar in the dark, so they are genius!!
A born with ability doesn't equal learnt intelligence. End of story.

-------------------

Hey, nobody mentioned CROWS!!!!

They are social, can mimic sounds, they can CHEAT! They were observed that when food was rare, one crow gave the signal for "danger" to scare away the others and ate the food. They also very hard to hunt, they can recognize a riffle and fly away...

From Wiki:

"Intelligence

As a group, the crows show remarkable examples of intelligence, and Aesop's fable of The Crow and the Pitcher shows that humans have long viewed the crow as an intelligent animal. They top the avian IQ scale[1]. Crows and ravens often score very highly on intelligence tests. Crows in the northwestern U.S. (a blend of Corvus brachyrhynchos and Corvus caurinus) show modest linguistic capabilities and the ability to relay information over great distances, live in complex, hierarchic societies involving hundreds of individuals with various "occupations", and have an intense rivalry with the area's less socially advanced ravens. One species, the New Caledonian Crow, has recently been intensively studied because of its ability to manufacture and use its own tools in the day-to-day search for food. Wild hooded crows in Israel have learned to use bread crumbs for bait-fishing. Crows will engage in a kind of midair jousting, or air-"chicken" to establish pecking order."

P.S.:In literary and fanciful usage, the collective noun for a group of crows is a murder.

I have enough cognitive dissonance to handle the newfound knowledge that pigs are at least the intellectual equal of dogs and probably their superiors, yet continue to eat their flesh. I wonder how many more generations of westerners will be able to do that? It will be interesting to see how the "pet pig" phenomenon affects our eating habits. We've lately been educated to see pork as a healthier food than beef because the fat is less saturated.

When we first started seeing pet pigs 20 years ago I asked my wife, who has a habit of filling the house with a menagerie, whether she wanted one. She said, "No. Pork is the only red meat that I really like and if I had a pig as a member of the family I know I wouldn't be able to eat it any more. I don't want to spend the rest of my life eating chicken and fish."

This is very similar to what I am thinking, actually.

Academic is also important in contributing intelligence. You can take an academically educated human vs a human that grew up in a dumpster in the middle of nowhere with no form of education.

Just like exercising is important for training the physical body, academics and other mind exercises are important for training the brain. Smart animals usually have good education.

Uh... It's not easy to answer a question phrased that way, I'm not sure what you're driving at. In the past 25 years since pigs have become popular pets in the USA, their owners have discovered a very high level of intelligence. There are of course multiple species of "pigs" and they hardly all have the same traits. I believe the Vietnamese potbellied pig that was originally domesticated as a pet is a different species from the barnyard pig, but they have been hybridized so much that there's no telling what you've got. As for dogs, we have been breeding them domestically for about 12,000 years so we've developed "breeds" with different characteristics. Poodles are really bright, whereas my Lhasa Apsos have the IQ of a brick.When I said "we" I meant "we." Dogs have been loyal, loving companions in our homes and partners in our work for 15,000 years: they are family members. For a tribe of humans to devolve to the level where it can regard these creatures as food is a local breakdown of the process of civilization. Most Americans are nauseated--as well as angered to the point of irrationality--by the idea of anyone eating dog meat.Not all of the things you mention are necessarily components of the intelligence vector but still your point is well taken.I have enough cognitive dissonance to handle the newfound knowledge that pigs are at least the intellectual equal of dogs and probably their superiors, yet continue to eat their flesh. I wonder how many more generations of westerners will be able to do that? It will be interesting to see how the "pet pig" phenomenon affects our eating habits. We've lately been educated to see pork as a healthier food than beef because the fat is less saturated.

When we first started seeing pet pigs 20 years ago I asked my wife, who has a habit of filling the house with a menagerie, whether she wanted one. She said, "No. Pork is the only red meat that I really like and if I had a pig as a member of the family I know I wouldn't be able to eat it any more. I don't want to spend the rest of my life eating chicken and fish."

I have to disagree with your idea that eating dog is a breakdown of civilization because your premise is if an animal is socialized to respond to humans, they are worth saving and all others are expendable. Even though, they feel pain, stress, fear etc. It's a self-centered moralistic point of view, though its common and understandable. Cows have helped humans build civilization too but people eat them. Horses have been more instrumental in helping man than any animal and a number of them are slaughtered in america as a delicacy for human consumption, and are sold to zoos to feed their carnivores. Americans are trying to stop this practice altogether but a number of european countries produce and eat horseflesh and i don't see a big outrage over that by americans. Aah, of course its obvious, because its not rover who gets your morning paper for you and lives in your house. You also still hunt deer which are so beautiful and have no remorse. Americans have strange, hypocritical morals. The only part that is not a mystery is the self-centered self-righteousness.

Humans have known the intelligence of pigs since the dawn of time, nothing exposes an animal's cunning and intelligence quite like hunting it does (at least with traditional methods). It's in the last 25 years (or probably 150 more like it) that people have been detached from this knowledge.
Athough perhaps people didn't realise how affectionate and personable they could be, and keeping them as pets has brought this to our attention.


THANK YOU.
As I explained here to a roomful of ignorant morons;
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=60081
The eating dogs thread.
You really should have chimed in fraggle. You still can...

you 're the ignorant moron. you eat bambi, you should be shot.

This thread is about the intelligence of animals. So get your offtopic shit out of here and take it to MY other thread, titled Eating dogs...

Thank you...

I'm in the Elephant & Gorilla/Chimp group.

However, I think that Octopus and crows are amongst the smartes unrecognised species.

I saw a show on crows last month where a town in northern Eur-asia had a problem whrer the local crows had figured out that a stick in a hole in the ice was often attached to a fish (ice fishing rig). so if the fisherman left his gear alone, the crows would real in the line, and eat the catch.

I've mentioned this story here before; my undergrad icthyology professor did his doctoral thesis on 'grunters', a breed of fish in the Maryland, USA area. One day, one of his fish was missing. the next day, a second fish was gone. So he set up a camera in the corner of the room to determine which of the other grad students were stealing his study subjects.
The next morning, he reviewed the tape to discover the octopus in a tank across the lab unlatch the wire mesh cover on its tank, walk across the floor, open the grunter's tank, grab a fish and eat it, then climb out, re-latch the grunter's tank, crawl back across the floor, get back in it's own tanks, and re-latch it's tank cover.
:bugeye: :bugeye: they are MUCH smarter then they are given credit for.

horses and deer are more intelligent than dogs, i don't know about cats. I worked with horses when i was young and they are much more perceptive than a dog. They can read more subtle emotions and cues.

I'm in the Elephant & Gorilla/Chimp group.

However, I think that Octopus and crows are amongst the smartes unrecognised species.

I saw a show on crows last month where a town in northern Eur-asia had a problem whrer the local crows had figured out that a stick in a hole in the ice was often attached to a fish (ice fishing rig). so if the fisherman left his gear alone, the crows would real in the line, and eat the catch.

I've mentioned this story here before; my undergrad icthyology professor did his doctoral thesis on 'grunters', a breed of fish in the Maryland, USA area. One day, one of his fish was missing. the next day, a second fish was gone. So he set up a camera in the corner of the room to determine which of the other grad students were stealing his study subjects.
The next morning, he reviewed the tape to discover the octopus in a tank across the lab unlatch the wire mesh cover on its tank, walk across the floor, open the grunter's tank, grab a fish and eat it, then climb out, re-latch the grunter's tank, crawl back across the floor, get back in it's own tanks, and re-latch it's tank cover.
:bugeye: :bugeye: they are MUCH smarter then they are given credit for.

I agree, and horses are known to do this type of behavior when their owners aren't 'watching' as well.

horses and deer are more intelligent than dogs, i don't know about cats. I worked with horses when i was young and they are much more perceptive than a dog. They can read more subtle emotions and cues. I got to write down this statement. How old r you? Do you even have any proof?

are emotions and inate responses to emotions the same as "smarts"?

Are we talking book smarts or street smarts? Intelect?

Squirells often score higher than domesticated dogs in problem-solving tests, and wild turkeys are generally considered more than twice as "smart" as thier domesticated cousins.

When I said "we" I meant "we." Dogs have been loyal, loving companions in our homes and partners in our work for 15,000 years: they are family members.
Some breeds are. But I imagine that in areas where dogs are eaten, there are 'food breeds' and 'pet breeds', and people don't really think of both types as the same.

I have to disagree with your idea that eating dog is a breakdown of civilization because your premise is if an animal is socialized to respond to humans, they are worth saving and all others are expendable.You have a woeful misunderstanding of anthropology and you're misquoting me. I don't know which bothers me worse. :)

Dogs were not "socialized to respond to humans." They became members of our tribes 15,000 years ago. We were still nomadic hunter-gatherers without permanent settlements. We did not have the knowledge, surroundings, or other resources to domesticate any animal. Dogs and humans responded to each other, naturally. This was the first voluntary multi-species community ever to exist on this planet. (Not counting biological imperatives like parasitism or symbiosis.)

The relationship between Homo sapiens and Canis lupus domesticus is unique and special. You cannot categorize dogs with parrots, monkeys, seals, dolphins, hamsters, or even cats, much less with the animals we domesticated deliberately as sources of food.

I have at no time said that all other animals are expendable. If you made a concerted effort to shame me over my carnivory you might be successful, although you'd have had better luck when I was younger and more idealistic. (Today I'd find something just as shameful that you do and throw it back at you.) Still I recognize it as cognitive dissonance. We all do illogical things and it's even easier when everyone around us is doing them. Humans do have the instinct to eat meat after all; becoming predators was one of the first things that differentiated us from the other apes. It's part of our heritage and we have to learn to deal with it. I think replicated organic tissue a la Star Trek is not too far off and that will solve the problem.
Cows have helped humans build civilization too but people eat them.No, humans hunted bovine animals before we settled down and learned to farm, much less invented wheels. Training them to work for us came much later than eating steak.
Horses have been more instrumental in helping man than any animalNo. As I said, you have not studied your prehistory. Dogs helped us make a quantum jump in the amount of food we could collect, at a time when we were always one drought away from starvation. Horses have been good to us but they do not approach that level of service. Sure they plow our farms but they were domesticated rather late in our history and we'd have to give the credit for increasing our plowing capacity to earlier domesticated herbivores like the donkey and goat.
and a number of them are slaughtered in america as a delicacy for human consumption, and are sold to zoos to feed their carnivores.Most Americans are pretty uncomfortable with the idea of horsemeat. They tolerate it in zoos because of the old "cycle of life" thing with the wild animals, but very few people will even buy it to feed their dogs.
Americans are trying to stop this practice altogether but a number of european countries produce and eat horseflesh and i don't see a big outrage over that by americans.There are European societies who feel about horsemeat the way we do. The only one that keeps a high enough profile that most Americans are conscious of it is France. Half of us have so much gratitude and respect for France for helping us out in our revolution etc. that we'll forgive them for anything. The other half are so angry at France that a taste for horsemeat isn't high enough on their list to complain about.
Aah, of course its obvious, because its not rover who gets your morning paper for you and lives in your house. You also still hunt deer which are so beautiful and have no remorse.You still don't get it. Dogs are unique among all animals. They came to us. They partnered with us. They hunted with us, joining their speed and sense of smell to our size and pointy sticks, so we all ate better. They risked their lives to protect our camps while we gave them warm fires to sit by while they were on duty. This was voluntary. We did not capture, enslave, or train them to do these things as we did with horses, camels, llamas and elephants. They came to us.

For that, we owe them.
Americans have strange, hypocritical morals. The only part that is not a mystery is the self-centered self-righteousness.You can hardly get away with calling this an American thing. We're newcomers. i don't think any people are as sentimental about dogs as the English. (And yes I do mean English, not British.)

Consumption of horsemeat or dog is purely an individual cultural ethical value. It IS NOT that "a tribe of humans devolve to the level where it can regard these creatures as food [and as such] is a local breakdown of the process of civilization." There is no "de-evolve" involved - whatever that means? In China, in some provinces dog is taken as a delicacy while in others it is distained. And yes, although you'll be pressed to find anyone to admit it, they do raise dogs for food in remote areas. But this is in no way a regression of society or a breakdown: it is called sustenance.

Many Chinese often came up to me in China when I had my dog there and just couldn't understand the social bond. They were just not aware of this type of beneficial situation. They would ask, "What do you get out of that?" Call it ignorant maybe, yes.

Dogs were not really domesticated by people: they domesticated themselves because of the mutual benefit. The ancestral Canis lupus familiaris first started hanging around human encampments to munch up on our sraps we left on the side. The mutual bond grew from there and both have come to realize the benefits.

Chatha: I understand what you say and I also question Fraggle's initial assertion about pigs, but I just don't know anything about pigs to respond. Still, most people know very little about the supremacy intelligence of dolphins and whales. Look at the difference in habitat that they are restricted to in order to exhibit that intelligence, yet those who work with them know how so intelligent they are. Excellent points about parrots and dogs.

fraggle,

So you are saying because they came voluntarily you owe them because it was beneficial to them? And the ones you enslaved you don't owe? That doesn't make sense. You can just admit you revere dogs. If you agree you are a friend, if not you are a foe. That is pretty simple, why didn't you say so, why all the coy disguises. I disagree that dogs have done more for humans than horses. Without horses human civilization would not have progressed to the point it has but that is really not the point. The first domesticated dogs were used to help man just as horses, cows, sheep, pigs etc. Some for work, others for consumption. Dogs were useful as guards, tracking etc. Even the sled dogs of alaska were used for work and to benefit man and not seen as pets though some developed an attachment to their dogs. The pet phenomenon is relatively new. For those societies that do not facilitate the social bonding of man and dog, dogs are easier to eat. It's cultural. Just as in india cows are more revered.

Chatha, your argument is ridiculous. Ants can lift 100 times of their weight thus they must be intelligent. Bats can radar in the dark, so they are genius!!
A born with ability doesn't equal learnt intelligence. End of story.

-------------------

Hey, nobody mentioned CROWS!!!!

They are social, can mimic sounds, they can CHEAT! They were observed that when food was rare, one crow gave the signal for "danger" to scare away the others and ate the food. They also very hard to hunt, they can recognize a riffle and fly away...
No, not all ants. You are talking about the rhinocerous ant, which is pound for pound the strongest animal. Of cause its a form of intelligence because it helps them resolve problems in that area, say for instance a rhino ant needs to move something out of its way. But consider this, for us to lift 100 times our weight we have to use machines. Bats can radar in the dark, which gives them feedback info almost instantenously, it is their way of solving their complexities. We humans need street lights to navigate our way in the dark, which is our way of solving our complexities.

Dogs are unique among all animals. They came to us. They partnered with us.

Somebody read too much Kipling... :)

According to The cat that walked by himself, all domesticated animals made a deal with early humans, but of course, the cat was the smartest...

I think Hillary is a cat in human form intent on world domination for cats.

Algae or plankton...not too stressful really.