A family in our church buried their 19 year old son today.

He had committed suicide at home.

He was an atheist who according to the official church response, "believed Satan's lie that his life was worthless and not worth living".

But isn’t it the Church and his own family that drilled this into him year after year after year? How is this "Satan's lie" when the Bible and the Church openly teach this over and over again for anyone who cares to see it? The unbelievers in the congregation can surely see it clearer than anyone else because the finger of disapproval and condemnation is pointed directly at them every single day of their life, even by their own family members.

How many other children have killed themselves for not being able to live up to the standards in a Christian home, for being a constant disappointment to their parents and family, simply because of unbelief?

In the "inspired" Old Testament days his own parents would probably have been required to stone him themselves.

This was a good and loving young man.

What a senseless tragedy! :mad:

He will be dearly missed! :bawl:

See this right here and many many other reasons is why ALL religion should be banned. And all the people involved should be charged with murder for forcing this kid into a corner that he saw no way out of this is what disgusts me about religion.

I told a Buddhist Priest I was atheist and he just said: Maybe you're right. So really, I think it all depends on the religion. I know my family are all Christian and they get a little leary around me. Certainly they don't want to talk about GOD but at the same time are worried about my mortal soul burning in hellfire for all of eternity. Kind of puts a damper on their whole nice life in heaven with me being in hell and all.... SO, I think it's also about the family and the religion. The Buddhist Priest I know has three daughters and no of them are religious - one said she didn't believe in Buddha. He said that was perfectly OK. I mean, he didn't think it mattered in the least. Each life supposed has it's own purpose and being a Buddhist doesn't have to be it in this one. Maybe fixing something else? Or whatever?

Don't blame religion. Blame people. I can guarantee you that any true practicing Christian family would have shown their son unconditional love regardless of what he had or had not embraced. The problem is that too many people, whether they are Christian, or Buddhist, or Atheist, are selfish clueless idiots.

The only truly judgmental Christians I've ever seen weren't Christians at all. They were either half arsed Sunday Christians who are condemned by their own Bible for being so lukewarm and hypocritical or they are those who've taken issue with a few fundamental aspects and twisted the entire religion into some unrecognizable and psychologically damaging mess.

Seriously, the worst thing about Christianity are the complete morons who pretend to practice it or who are in reality practicing something else entirely.

A family in our church buried their 19 year old son today.

He had committed suicide at home.

He was an atheist who according to the official church response, "believed Satan's lie that his life was worthless and not worth living".

But isn’t it the Church and his own family that drilled this into him year after year after year? How is this "Satan's lie" when the Bible and the Church openly teach this over and over again for anyone who cares to see it? The unbelievers in the congregation can surely see it clearer than anyone else because the finger of disapproval and condemnation is pointed directly at them every single day of their life, even by their own family members.

How many other children have killed themselves for not being able to live up to the standards in a Christian home, for being a constant disappointment to their parents and family, simply because of unbelief?

In the "inspired" Old Testament days his own parents would probably have been required to stone him themselves.

This was a good and loving young man.

What a senseless tragedy! :mad:

He will be dearly missed! :bawl:

reminds me of the Hood (fort)

some people realize how wrong their admired (even family members) leading them are, and it hurts

I told a Buddhist Priest I was atheist and he just said: Maybe you're right.

...

The Buddhist Priest I know has three daughters and no of them are religious - one said she didn't believe in Buddha. He said that was perfectly OK. I mean, he didn't think it mattered in the least.

I think you are interpreting his words in ways he does not mean them.

He is Japanese, and a Buddhist priest. He is not likely to get into any serious discussion with a Western lay person like you.

He is probably very polite to you and very acccomodating, but this doesn't mean that he believes what you think he believes.

Don't blame religion. Blame people. I can guarantee you that any true practicing Christian family would have shown their son unconditional love regardless of what he had or had not embraced. The problem is that too many people, whether they are Christian, or Buddhist, or Atheist, are selfish clueless idiots.

The only truly judgmental Christians I've ever seen weren't Christians at all. They were either half arsed Sunday Christians who are condemned by their own Bible for being so lukewarm and hypocritical or they are those who've taken issue with a few fundamental aspects and twisted the entire religion into some unrecognizable and psychologically damaging mess.

Seriously, the worst thing about Christianity are the complete morons who pretend to practice it or who are in reality practicing something else entirely.


The message, according to the Bible, is that anyone who is not a Christian is wicked, is living a life of hopelessness, worthlessness, is condemned by The Law, and is worthy to be thrown away and executed by stoning. This is foundational to Christianity and upon this “truth” the entire rest of the religion is built. This state is what you are saved from when you become a Christian. Remove this and the entire religion falls to the ground.

How can this not have a destructive affect on at least some people?

I can guarantee you that any true practicing Christian family ...

Ah, it's always fun to see the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.

I fail to see how this boy's suicide had anything to do with his spiritual beliefs, atheistic or otherwise.

i do have to agree with cellar door, yes opinions can impact mood but its not really compleatly fair to blame the church for a suicide. What people really need to realise is that suicide is no more someones fault (including the person who does it) than death by any other disease would be. Depression is a potentually fatal illness and the way it kills is by suicide rather than by shutting down someones internal organs

A family in our church buried their 19 year old son today.

He had committed suicide at home.

He was an atheist who according to the official church response, "believed Satan's lie that his life was worthless and not worth living".

But isn’t it the Church and his own family that drilled this into him year after year after year? How is this "Satan's lie" when the Bible and the Church openly teach this over and over again for anyone who cares to see it? The unbelievers in the congregation can surely see it clearer than anyone else because the finger of disapproval and condemnation is pointed directly at them every single day of their life, even by their own family members.

How many other children have killed themselves for not being able to live up to the standards in a Christian home, for being a constant disappointment to their parents and family, simply because of unbelief?

In the "inspired" Old Testament days his own parents would probably have been required to stone him themselves.

This was a good and loving young man.

What a senseless tragedy! :mad:
He will be dearly missed! :bawl:
so any atheist who commits suicide within a theistic family structure is doing so because of religious persecution or is there some reason why it is particular to this example?

The message, according to the Bible, is that anyone who is not a Christian is wicked, is living a life of hopelessness, worthlessness, is condemned by The Law, and is worthy to be thrown away and executed by stoning. This is foundational to Christianity and upon this “truth” the entire rest of the religion is built. This state is what you are saved from when you become a Christian. Remove this and the entire religion falls to the ground.

How can this not have a destructive affect on at least some people?
*************
M*W: This young man's family was responsible for his suicide. They probably fed him eggs, toast and guilt, every morning. If he had a condition of chemical imbalance in his brain, they should have seen to it that he got treatment, but they probably only told him to pray for recovery. Come to think of it, I've never known anyone to commit suicide except for alleged "christians." Wonder why that is? I'm not talking here about Kamakazis or suicide bombers... just average folk.

He believed what he wanted to believe in, he believed in Satan, and died as a result.

He is an idiot.

He believed what he wanted to believe in, he believed in Satan, and died as a result.

He is an idiot.

Outside of being used as a war tactic isn't suicide a mental illness regardless to religion ?.

A soldier jumping on a handgrenade in a bunker to save his mates, is he a suicide victim?

so any atheist who commits suicide within a theistic family structure is doing so because of religious persecution or is there some reason why it is particular to this example?


There must be any number of reasons why a person might do this. Religion is only one of them.

In some cases Religion can prevent a person from committing suicide.

This family loved this young man. And this was a good family but...

I think that when someone is told over and over again from birth, by the very ones that love them, and by Church authority, that they are wicked unless they have faith, they can end up believing it and eventually even begin to loath their own thoughts and feelings and so themselves. That can be the seed of depression and eventually suicide.

Do you disagree?

This is the last thing his family wanted, because he might be in hell now according to their faith.

A soldier jumping on a hand grenade in a bunker to save his mates, is he a suicide victim?
In my opinion......no.....:) .

*************
M*W: This young man's family was responsible for his suicide. They probably fed him eggs, toast and guilt, every morning. If he had a condition of chemical imbalance in his brain, they should have seen to it that he got treatment, but they probably only told him to pray for recovery. Come to think of it, I've never known anyone to commit suicide except for alleged "christians." Wonder why that is? I'm not talking here about Kamakazis or suicide bombers... just average folk.


Perhaps there should be a study done on this. I was wondering if anyone else has either seen this or felt like committing suicide because of their own belief or unbelief in Christianity.

It is already painfully obvious what Islam can do to people's minds in this area.

*************
M*W: This young man's family was responsible for his suicide.

really MW? did you actually know this man and his family? or do you just automatically jump on any anti-christian bandwagon that comes along? :rolleyes:

Perhaps there should be a study done on this. I was wondering if anyone else has either seen this or felt like committing suicide because of their own belief or unbelief in Christianity.

It is already painfully obvious what Islam can do to people's minds in this area.
Islam ?.
Suicide is a sin in Islam .

yeah, it's all christ's fault. it's all the bible's fault. let's completely ignore the hopelessness embedded in today's society. everything is institutionalized, commercialized, industrialized, and about making money. quality of life is going down the toilet at about the same pace as technological advancement. people are lonely. people are desperate. people are on drugs. our role models are hollywood starlets, overpaid athletes, and shitty pop artists. everything is disposable. why not people too? and let's forget about everything good taught in the bible like the importance of charity, and forgiveness, humility, truth, and love. let's forget that christians are not supposed to judge or condemn others, but to set an example. a light for others to see...not a spotlight for an interrogation. yeah, religion sucks for all the reasons you all think it sucks...i agree. but it's not god's fault, and it's not christ's fault, and it's not the bible's fault. if there is fault, and there is plenty, it belongs to the practitioners.

The message, according to the Bible, is that anyone who is not a Christian is wicked, is living a life of hopelessness, worthlessness, is condemned by The Law, and is worthy to be thrown away and executed by stoning. This is foundational to Christianity and upon this “truth” the entire rest of the religion is built. This state is what you are saved from when you become a Christian. Remove this and the entire religion falls to the ground.

How can this not have a destructive affect on at least some people?

If this young man did indeed commit suicide as a result of his parents drilling these ideas into his head everyday, then Christianity is not to blame. They are. Decent Christian parents would of course have been strongly encouraging their son to devote himself to God, but would have also ensured that he didn't feel condemned by them. After all, it is not the role of a Christian to condemn anybody. Instead they should be leading others to God by being shining examples of what it means to be a genuinely decent human being. If this was the case, then this young man wouldn't have felt like he was in that much more of a difficult position than anyone else who is free to chose to follow, or not the follow, the teachings of the Bible.

Also, and I know many of us including myself are making assumptions here given the limited information we have to go on, but I wouldn't be surprised if the parents are even less "right" with God, according to the teachings of the Bible, than their son was.

The Bible clearly teaches that in the eyes of God, it is better not to be a Christian at all than it is to be a Christian in name only. Nothing disgusts God more than a half-arsed hypocritical idiot condemning others in his name. I'm sure that many of us share God's position on this point. Again, it's always the people that do the real damage to each other in this life.

Finally, and please forgive me for this quick succession of posts, but I'd also like to suggest that maybe the parents aren't entirely to blame, if at all. Having known people and the families of those people who have committed suicide, it's sometimes difficult to lay the blame on anyone. I've seen people struggle to cope with a depressed family member. I've seen them make sacrifices and do everything they can think of to try to help. But we are all human, and we don't always know how to fix problems. Sometimes, no matter what we do, tragedy will strike.

I am also sure that most people here will have at least read about a suicide that came as a complete shock to everyone who knew the person. No obvious signs of depression and then bang, gone, and everyone is left trying to understand how it was even possible.

I think that when someone is told over and over again from birth, by the very ones that love them, and by Church authority, that they are wicked unless they have faith, they can end up believing it and eventually even begin to loath their own thoughts and feelings and so themselves. That can be the seed of depression and eventually suicide.

I agree, because I know how this works, having myself been an atheist/undecided at the mercy of "loving Christians".

There is something fundamentally evil and insane about the main premise that everyone who does not accept Jesus deserves to burn in hell for all eternity, with no chance of redemption. It says that a person is so corruptible that nobody, neither the person themselves, nor God, nor anyone else, can or wishes to do anything about it; that there are mistakes and crimes for which no amends can be made, ever. It says that God's willingness to help people is limited.

When people believe such things, in the name of God, this also reflects in how they treat others.


I think that in the name of "religious tolerance", this belief about eternal damnation is often being overlooked, or presented as harmless, because "everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs".


Of course, we do not know the full story of what happened in that family, we don't know how much that child was pressured in the name of Christianity.

But I do believe that Christians have it in them to drive someone over the edge.

If this young man did indeed commit suicide as a result of his parents drilling these ideas into his head everyday, then Christianity is not to blame. They are. Decent Christian parents would of course have been strongly encouraging their son to devote himself to God, but would have also ensured that he didn't feel condemned by them. After all, it is not the role of a Christian to condemn anybody. Instead they should be leading others to God by being shining examples of what it means to be a genuinely decent human being. If this was the case, then this young man wouldn't have felt like he was in that much more of a difficult position than anyone else who is free to chose to follow, or not the follow, the teachings of the Bible.

Do you really think that a person can believe "everyone who does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will burn in hell for all eternity", and still act kindly and lovingly toward others, especially those who do not accept Jesus?

In my opinion......no.....:) .


then what's a suicide bomber?

A family in our church buried their 19 year old son today.

My condolences for the friends and family.


He was an atheist who according to the official church response, "believed Satan's lie that his life was worthless and not worth living".

Xtianity is insane and this is part of its malignant form. Why do you subject yourself to it?

Do you really think that a person can believe "everyone who does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will burn in hell for all eternity", and still act kindly and lovingly toward others, especially those who do not accept Jesus?

why wouldn't they? seems to me it would be even more reason to do so.

why wouldn't they? seems to me it would be even more reason to do so.

Why? And wouldn't that make them better then God?

Islam ?.
Suicide is a sin in Islam .


Then it is both a sin and is also a ticket to heaven at the same time for the Islam suicide bomber. Do you think the Islam suicide bomber thinks his act will send him to heaven or hell? I think to heaven. Why does he think that? Is it not because of the teachings in the Qur'an? And is he right?

yeah, it's all christ's fault. it's all the bible's fault. let's completely ignore the hopelessness embedded in today's society. everything is institutionalized, commercialized, industrialized, and about making money. quality of life is going down the toilet at about the same pace as technological advancement. people are lonely. people are desperate. people are on drugs. our role models are hollywood starlets, overpaid athletes, and shitty pop artists. everything is disposable. why not people too?

I agree, let's not.

I am just asking that you don't completely ignore the hopelessness, worthy only of eternal fire and torture, etc. paint brush that Christianity paints the entire unbelieving world with as well. I see a real danger here.


and let's forget about everything good taught in the bible like the importance of charity, and forgiveness, humility, truth, and love. let's forget that christians are not supposed to judge or condemn others, but to set an example. a light for others to see...not a spotlight for an interrogation. yeah, religion sucks for all the reasons you all think it sucks...i agree. but it's not god's fault, and it's not christ's fault, and it's not the bible's fault. if there is fault, and there is plenty, it belongs to the practitioners.

I agree, let's not.

There exists much good in the Christian religion and in the Bible but let's not fail to see that there also exists some evil. Almost everything on this earth that man is involved with is like this. The Bible (which man was also involved with) does teach some evil things, that is undeniable personally to me at least. That takes the Bible out of the "perfect", "inspired word of God", standing and brings it down to some degree. Does that mean that it is all false and evil? No, I am not saying that either.

If this young man did indeed commit suicide as a result of his parents drilling these ideas into his head everyday, then Christianity is not to blame. They are. Decent Christian parents would of course have been strongly encouraging their son to devote himself to God, but would have also ensured that he didn't feel condemned by them. After all, it is not the role of a Christian to condemn anybody. Instead they should be leading others to God by being shining examples of what it means to be a genuinely decent human being. If this was the case, then this young man wouldn't have felt like he was in that much more of a difficult position than anyone else who is free to chose to follow, or not the follow, the teachings of the Bible.


It does not even take "bad parents" for this to happen. This kid was loved. I think that it is just part of growing up and living in that environment. I think kids can be motivated to do this because they feel like they are such a failure and disappointment to their loving parents and feel like they bring shame to their whole family. They can perhaps think that because of them their parents feel like they have failed as well. And they hate bringing pain and heartache to them simply by their very existence.


Also, and I know many of us including myself are making assumptions here given the limited information we have to go on, but I wouldn't be surprised if the parents are even less "right" with God, according to the teachings of the Bible, than their son was.


Possible, but I don't know.


The Bible clearly teaches that in the eyes of God, it is better not to be a Christian at all than it is to be a Christian in name only. Nothing disgusts God more than a half-arsed hypocritical idiot condemning others in his name. I'm sure that many of us share God's position on this point. Again, it's always the people that do the real damage to each other in this life.


I think that the Bible can often confuse well meaning people by presenting two opposite views on the same topic as "truth".


Finally, and please forgive me for this quick succession of posts, but I'd also like to suggest that maybe the parents aren't entirely to blame, if at all. Having known people and the families of those people who have committed suicide, it's sometimes difficult to lay the blame on anyone. I've seen people struggle to cope with a depressed family member. I've seen them make sacrifices and do everything they can think of to try to help. But we are all human, and we don't always know how to fix problems. Sometimes, no matter what we do, tragedy will strike.

I am also sure that most people here will have at least read about a suicide that came as a complete shock to everyone who knew the person. No obvious signs of depression and then bang, gone, and everyone is left trying to understand how it was even possible.


The parents indeed probably were not directly to blame in their intent. Undoubtedly this is not the end game they wanted or were praying for. I just think that the Christian world as a whole is almost completely blind to the possibility that this can and does happen to children in the Christian family and Church environment. They are in almost complete denial of this danger.

At least some of the members of this young man's church are apparently waking up to this danger, at least from what I have heard this week. They are now worried about their own children. Some small good!

Thank you very much for your comments!

Best Regards!

why wouldn't they? seems to me it would be even more reason to do so.

Generally, they do not.

*************
M*W: ... Come to think of it, I've never known anyone to commit suicide except for alleged "christians." Wonder why that is? I'm not talking here about Kamakazis or suicide bombers... just average folk.

After reading this thread, I thought I would Google for some statistics.

I tried "suicide rates Christianity atheism"

Before we go further, let me remind those who have forgotten and inform those who do not know that I am agnostic, or "ignostic" to be more precise. If anything I lean towards the atheist ticket, but not by much...

Anyhow, I expected to find studies showing positive correlations between suicide and atheism, but was wary of sites slanted to or ran by Christian groups. I figured I have to do some quote mining to find any dissenting opinions.

However, I was not prepared for the total absence of any quotes supporting the opposing view, namely, that Christianity or religiousity in general correlated with suicides and and suicide attempts.

Not being wiling to spend all day, I tried to select a representative quote from what appears to be a relatively unbiased site:

www.mentalhelp.net (http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=13737&cn=9)

Religiosity seems to have a protective effect against suicide. Exactly which religion(s), during what ages/developmental periods, and among which ethnicities remain unanswered questions. Many of the studies of the relationship between religion and suicide have been too small, contradictory, or flawed to make overall conclusions. However, research suggests that in the United States, areas with higher percentages of individuals without religious affiliation have correspondingly higher suicide rates. Involvement with a religion may provide a social support system, a direct way to cope with stressors, a sense of purpose and/or hope, and may lead to a stronger belief that suicide is wrong.

I was really quite surprised at this outcome, but seems at first glance to be somewhat of a more popular position than the converse. It is nearly impossible to quickly find a study that supports the converse, that suicide is more likely if you are a Christian.

First page of Google:


#
Facts about suicide
Feb 9, 2001 ... Non-theistic... Atheism ... The average suicide rate in the U.S. is about 11 per 100000 per year. ... Followers of religions that strongly prohibit suicide, like Christianity and Islam, have a higher suicide rate than ...
www.religioustolerance.org/sui_fact.htm - Cached - Similar
#
Religion and Suicide: Religious Affiliation, Atheism, Suicide
Apr 26, 2005 ... It is important to keep in mind that atheism and agnosticism have no inherent proscription against suicide, so higher rates of suicide among ...
www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html - Cached - Similar
#
Christianity vs. Atheists? - Yahoo! Answers India
Christianity vs. Atheists? I was wondering if there was a study done regarding the suicide rate of Christians compared with Atheists? 2 years ago ...
in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid... - Cached - Similar
#
Friendly Atheist by @hemantmehta » Ask Richard: Perplexed by ...
Jul 7, 2009 ... I'm an atheist, my wife is a fairly liberal cafeteria christian. .... Are suicide rates the same for theists and atheists? ...
friendlyatheist.com/.../ask-richard-perplexed-by-irrational-religious-explanations-for-a-suicide/ - Cached - Similar
#
Atheist divorce rate is Lower than Christian
Seen as an atheist in the U.S. in the mid-late 1900s was frowned upon more so than being a ... -6/+38Not to mention the lowest minimum wages, hightest suicide rates, etc. etc. .... Christian divorce rate is 36 times lower than average. ...
digg.com/.../Atheist_divorce_rate_is_Lower_than_Christian - Cached - Similar
#
Atheism - Conservapedia
"Concerning suicide rates, this is the one indicator of societal health in which ..... Lee Strobel converted from atheism to Christianity and then became a ...
conservapedia.com/Atheism - Cached - Similar
#
If atheism is so great, why are suicide rates so high among its ...
Jan 13, 2008 ... At 25.6, the total suicide rate is markedly highest in Atheist countries (e.g. .... I am a Christian and I still beg God to end my life asap because I'm ...
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid... - Cached - Similar
Why is the suicide rate for Atheists so very high?‎ - Sep 19, 2009
Are Christians and atheists equally happy and fulfilled?‎ - Nov 1, 2008
Rates of suicide among Christians and Atheists?‎ - Mar 26, 2008

More results from answers.yahoo.com »
#
Christianity, Atheism, and Suicide
Christianity, Atheism, and Suicide. Thursday December 30, 2004 ... to The American Journal of Psychiatry, non-belivers have a higher rate of suicide. ...
atheism.about.com/b/.../christianity-atheism-and-suicide.htm - Cached - Similar
#
Religion and Suicide: Buddhism, Native American and African ...
religion practiced in the United States following Christianity and Judaism. ... suicide among Native Americans, with a suicide rate approximately 2.5 .... Although there is exceptionally limited data on Atheism and suicide, limited ...
www.springerlink.com/index/w238202221436w03.pdf - Similar
by D Lizardi - Related articles - All 2 versions


So - do we go with: :shrug:

Not enough effort put into searching for studies to back up the atheist position
Too many studies biased towards religion to find one that tells the "truth"
Accepting that suicide is, in fact lower among those with an affiliation with a religious group
Some other anomaly


The first one is an easy choice, but go ahead and knock your socks off trying to find some other conclusion. :bugeye:

More importantly, is this the result that most of the agnostics / atheists here would have expected?

What about the theists? (Silly question probably, but, in the interest of fairness, etc...)

What do ya'll think? I was surprised, for sure...

Why? And wouldn't that make them better then God?

because love is theraputic, and is representative of god and of christ (to answer your 2nd question).

i know i've told you this before...hell is not a punishment, it is a chosen state of existence. can't you see that when you look at the way people choose to behave?

Generally, they do not.

then they are wrong, and to blame.

hell is not a punishment, it is a chosen state of existence.

Err WHAT!?
That's complete nonsense..

He believed what he wanted to believe in, he believed in Satan, and died as a result.

He is an idiot.


Only from these very few words above, you do not seem to be a very understanding or loving person.

You may be, but from the above you do not appear to be.

Ok so from the tone of this thread I am to assume that it had nothing at all to do with the Church telling his parents and friends and likely even the kid that if he does not see the things the way the chruch does then he has to beleive in Satan. And that the kid was just spontaniously depressed and there was nothing anyone could do or save this kid or help him out of his depression. Nothing at all could have been done he was going to do it anyway is that about right for the tone of this thread.

My condolences for the friends and family.

Xtianity is insane and this is part of its malignant form. Why do you subject yourself to it?


Thank You.

But I do not regard all of Christianity as being insane, just all of the insane parts. You know the parts where the Bible teaches that a girl's rapist should marry his victim, and things like that. Welcome to the family son! Would you like to rape some of my other daughters? Now I am not the sharpest tack in the drawer but I call that insane. There is also love to be found in the Bible as well, and that is what draws most people to it.

I subject myself to going to church because my wife, kids, and extended family on both sides, are all Christians. My wife knows how I feel.

I have seen how terrible the other “free thinkers” in our extended family have been treated and I have chosen to keep a low profile. I will challenge anyone in my family when things get way out of hand, when reason has been thrown entirely out the window. I try to bring them back to some basis of reality when needed but most of the time things are fairly mellow. It keeps me in the loop on what they are really being taught in church so I can counterbalance it a bit when needed. When the teaching truly is evil or wrong.

I can learn from the good teachings myself and, as I said, serve them as a counterbalance.

the bible isnt christian.


I subject myself to going to church because my wife, kids, and extended family on both sides, are all Christians. My wife knows how I feel.

so what are you telling us for?

the bible isnt christian.


Please explain what you mean. Our church teaches that both the Old and New Testaments in the Bible are the perfect "Word of God". I think it is something less than that. The Bible is the primary source for teaching in our particular church. There are of course many different views on this topic. What is yours? I look forward to your comments.


so what are you telling us for?

I was just trying to answer swarm's question.

Please explain what you mean. Our church teaches that both the Old and New Testaments in the Bible are the perfect "Word of God". I think it is something less than that. The Bible is the primary source for teaching in our particular church.

the old testament is not christian.



There are of course many different views on this topic. What is yours? I look forward to your comments.

what is my opinion on what?



I was just trying to answer swarm's question.

well then you can deal with it or not. maybe you should have made a thread about that instead of using someone else.

the old testament is not christian.


I agree, the Old Testament is Jewish in origin. Is that what you mean?

The problem is that the New Testament quotes from the Old as if it is trustworthy scripture. In the New Testament Jesus refers to the Old Testament as if it is true and trustworthy. And He even teaches that one must follow the Old Testament Law to be saved.

Perhaps I am getting too far away from the thread topic here. Sorry.

Perhaps I am getting too far away from the thread topic here. Sorry.

of course you are:rolleyes:.....

my advice is to go with the flow.

yeah, it's all christ's fault. it's all the bible's fault. let's completely ignore the hopelessness embedded in today's society. everything is institutionalized, commercialized, industrialized, and about making money. quality of life is going down the toilet at about the same pace as technological advancement. people are lonely. people are desperate. people are on drugs. our role models are Hollywood starlets, overpaid athletes, and shitty pop artists. everything is disposable. why not people too? and let's forget about everything good taught in the bible like the importance of charity, and forgiveness, humility, truth, and love. let's forget that Christians are not supposed to judge or condemn others, but to set an example. a light for others to see...not a spotlight for an interrogation. yeah, religion sucks for all the reasons you all think it sucks...i agree. but it's not god's fault, and it's not Christ's fault, and it's not the Bible's fault. if there is fault, and there is plenty, it belongs to the practitioners.
Whose fault is it ?.
If you create a screwed world are you not to blame ?.

Err WHAT!?
That's complete nonsense..

no it's not. some people like being in hell.

let's do a mental exercise. think about our state of existence right now. i would call it quasi-hell, and getting worse by the second. people are suffering right? it's relative i know, but in some way, to some degree, all of us are suffering. can't you see that some people like it? people choose the behaviors that cause suffering all the time. why is that? some people don't even realize or admit they're suffering. i think that's because they're used to it and they can't fathom an existence without it. i think ego is a factor too. people don't want to admit that they're flawed. they don't want to see how bad it really is. could be fear of the truth about themselves.

Whose fault is it ?.
If you create a screwed world are you not to blame ?.

yes...it's our fault. we are all flawed.

yes...it's our fault. we are all flawed.

Then God is flawed too.

Then God is flawed too.

no. not if there's a good reason for it. which of course there is. we're supposed to be learning something.

the bible isnt christian.so what are you telling us for?
If the bible is not christian then what is it ?.

A soldier jumping on a handgrenade in a bunker to save his mates, is he a suicide victim?

nope

If the bible is not christian then what is it ?.

it's a tool.

yes...it's our fault. we are all flawed.
We did not create this world....you believe your God did and therefore he is the guilty one and not us....us....the poor little creatures.

it's a tool.
Indeed.....a Christian tool to promote and to spread the religious hoax .

We did not create this world....you believe your God did and therefore he is the guilty one and not us....us....the poor little creatures.

oh brother. :rolleyes:

oh brother. :rolleyes:
Oh.....sister...........:bugeye:

Indeed.....a Christian tool to promote and to spread the religious hoax .

no, that's just what ignorant people think (including some religious). the bible is a tool of the holy spirit.

Oh.....sister...........:bugeye:

my nun days are over. :shake:

my nun days are over. :shake:
I am the celibate now........:cheers::cheers:

I am the celibate now........:cheers::cheers:

wanna try to beat my record?

wanna try to beat my record?
No thanks .
I become a priest and screw all the nuns now......:worship: ......

No thanks .
I become a priest and screw all the nuns now......:worship: ......

they would probably appreciate that. ;)