Suicide bomb in Jerusalem

A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up in a crowded restaurant in Jerusalem's central shopping district. Israeli radio said 18 people were killed and nearly 90 wounded, in the bloodiest bomb attack the city has seen since 1997. The militant group Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.


Somebody need to tell these people that when you violate "Thou shalt not kill" you go to hell not heaven. This does not generate world sympathy for Palestenian cause at all...

Hi kmguru,

I totally agree, but do not forget to look at the other side of the medal aswel: Israel is not that innocent either.

The media suddenly seems to have a tendency to be "pro-Israel" all the way if I read/heard the news correctly. This smells like manipulation for an upcoming world-wide economy boost (with the good ol' fashioned warmachine)

Bye!

Crisp

That is why fighting will continue until God/Allah intervenes - meaning beyond our lifetime.

It is called bad Karma...or in Feng Shui terms - a really unholy place...

It is sad though...God's chosen people Vs Allah's chosen people...

(Sometime I take one side at other times I take the other. So far the average is 50/50. Someday the whole medal may disappear from this planet - then we will have a story to tell to our grandchildren)

Well, as Terry Jones said:
according to the pope, justifying the crusades, "God has been misquoted - thou shalt not kill fellow christians."

Crisp: don't forget we (in the Benelux) often think it is politically correct to tend towards a pro-palestine point of view.
And even though Israel has been doing some disgusting things, what do those particular individuals (among which many children) in the restaurant have to do with that?

Bobby Lee: What reason do you have that "thou shalt not kill" is a universal value?

~Merlijn

In the heat of passion over the subject apparently those radicals on both sides have seemed tp have forgotten this. To condem inoccents, who have had nothing to do with the conflict only assures that more will follow. ON BOTH SIDES.

I think that the media tends toware Israel probably because it is a much friendlier nation to them. Plus they have a better human rights record.

However, Israel did used to wrap Dobermans(a breed of dog just in case you thought the man at the meant anything :D ) in bombs then send them to crowded places and detonate them. this is a very bad act of cruelty to animals to say the least.

But apparently Muslims are supposed to believe in the Old Testament(testament means contract) and the Gospels(Gospel means good news), however, they think that they are corrupt when it disagree with the Quran. But also, they have the holy War Law. This means that they can wage a holy war. I thought Jihad did mean holy war?

You may also not know this but the suicide bombers(Islamic) are promised 21 virgins in the after-life. So this is like a motivation. As well as this, when you hear it on the news just think that this is probably the same way that the immediate family and relatives of the Islamic suicide bomber also found out. Unless the group rang them straight afterwards. To me the 21 virgins in the after life is pretty sick. I mean if you were a woman how would you feel about that? Being stuck with some dirty man? Though I don't think that Islam actually states this. Which means that a hard lined Islamic group is actually changing their religion to get what they want.

"However, Israel did used to wrap Dobermans(a breed of dog just in case you thought the man at the meant anything ) in bombs then send them to crowded places and detonate them. this is a very bad act of cruelty to animals to say the least. "

when,where did Israel do such things?!?!?

never ever Israel wrapped dobermans(german sheperds) in bombs and sent them to explode

what the fu_ck are you talking about?!?!
(only USA been involved in such stuff (bombs on dolphins))


"You may also not know this but the suicide bombers(Islamic) are promised 21 virgins "

actualy it is 70 virgins

and u won't get there if after you die u are wrapped in pig skin and buried


you are a racist !!!
maybe the arabic gangs in aussie raping girls upsets u?

the pals had a donkey with bombs in the recent intifada

2day two girls got acid thrown on thier faces in kashmir cause they were not wearing a veil on thier faces.

Crisp:

Does Neutron Bombs have radiation fall out? And how effective those bombs are to surgically remove mammals?:D

Yes I believe that would be an effective measure. It certainly would end the hostilities from both sides would it not.

Hi kmguru,

I am not familiar with the neutron bomb, but I am pretty sure it would have a radioactive fallout. Neutrons can only (easily) be produced with nuclear reactions. The advantage of a neutron bomb over an atomic bomb is that it is not that destructive for infrastructures (only to living things, people don't react well to neutrons).

Bye!

Crisp

wet1, "U think same as me think". May be I have to use my red phone to call God....

when,where did Israel do such things?!?!?

never ever Israel wrapped dobermans(german sheperds) in bombs and sent them to explode

what the fu_ck are you talking about?!?!
(only USA been involved in such stuff (bombs on dolphins))

Actually, it was a question on trivial pursuit, a board game. What makes me racist?

Actually, it was a question on trivial pursuit, a board game. What makes me racist?

Israel like the rest of the west world uses dogs to find drugs,people,search and rescue,find explosives,medical experiments,pets,guidnece for the blind.

unless u can state an incident,event in which a dog was wrapped with explosives and sent as a bomb by Israel shut up.


what makes you a racist is that u said arabs/muslems are dirty

I said it was dirty for a virgin women to have to spend eternity with a person who went and killed people just so he can get some fleshly pleasures.

Thanks

Somebody told me, ya he will get 70 virgins due to his actions at the holy war but because his intentions were not noble that is trying to get 70 virgins, his "part" will be chopped off.

*OUCH*

BTW, what happens a female goes on the holy war, does she get 70 virgin guys too?

This is strange... because in Swedish television, they say that he only killed himself, and 15 people was hurt...?

I ran across a couple of articles having to do with the Arab - Israeli conflict in the 'National Post', a Canadian Newspaper, that puts an interesting perspective on what's been going on in the Mid-East:

http://www.nationalpost.com/

Check out the two main articles: 'Paranoid imaginings' and 'War run on scripted lines' ... Most interesting.

I just finished reading "Paranoid imaginings". I am a person who is normally optimist and have never failed to solve any complex problem. This one, I am sorry to say, is impossible to solve.

It is beyond the capability of mere mortals....

Sooner or later, one side is going to lose, and it will not be the rest of the world.

Just shove your mealy-mouthed platitudes where the sun doesn't shine and leave it to the Israelis.

They already have most of the Palestinian hierarchy scared shit-less wondering who the next helicopter rockets are going to take out. Hasn't it dawned on you that to do what they've been doing they have to have the cooperation of quite a few Palestinians who are fed up with Arafat and his hypocritical posturing?

Originally posted by Chagur
Just shove your mealy-mouthed platitudes where the sun doesn't shine and leave it to the Israelis.


Are you having episodes again?

Can just take so much of you kmguru ... or whatever it is you're trying to portray.

And this was one of those days.

whatever it is you're trying to portray

I thought so... You need to know what it is before trying to throw the baby with the bath water.....:D

Take your pill regularly and you wont have those days!
:D :D :D

Not the baby, the child.

Considering that you began this thread, isn't it surprising that all you've contributed to the discussion are a few rather inane remarks?

To me, that is rather childish behavior considering the gravity of the situation. Maybe you should begin taking your Flintstones Multi-Vitamins again. :cool:

To me, that is rather childish behavior considering the gravity of the situation.

Now you are getting somewhere... instead of hiding behind other peoples threads... why dont you solve the problem for us...big man...

As I said, I do not have a solution in this case. And I was chided...with obscene gestures... for platitude.

So how about it...old man...go fix the darn problem, and we all rally behind you to get the Nobel Peace Prize.

And...Please...Please... no stupid comebacks. Take it like a grown man and solve the freaking problem.

I am a child....what do I know....

kmguru scribbled ...
I am a child....what do I know.... Apparently not very much.

I would offer some thoughts but I'm still broken up over your profound and deeply thought out initial offering:
Somebody need to tell these people that when you violate "Thou shalt not kill" you go to hell not heaven. This does not generate world sympathy for Palestenian cause at all... I really like the religious fervor you managed to interject.

As for 'stupid comebacks' ... Please, I wouldn't think of stepping into your territory.

Oh, and by the way, the word is 'Palestinian'.

Let me state it again:

... instead of hiding behind other peoples threads... why dont you solve the problem for us...big man...

As I said, I do not have a solution in this case. And I was chided...with obscene gestures... for platitude.

So how about it...old man...go fix the darn problem, and we all rally behind you to get the Nobel Peace Prize.

Take it like a grown man and solve the freaking problem.

Since you seem to be into posting just to post, even if it means repeating yourself ... I'll give it a try too.
Just shove your mealy-mouthed platitudes where the sun doesn't shine and leave it to the Israelis.Is that clear enough, kmguru?

This is my topic, you uncouth idiot, why dont you start your own? or are you afraid you will show your ignorance to the rest of the world?

BTW, I did not see a freaking thread started by you on the first page of "World Affirs & Politics". Why is that?

As a matter of fact how many threads have you started? Platitude cuts both ways?

And what is your obsession on men's butt? Are you gay?

And if you understand the gravity of "any" situation, please enlighten us! - old man.

And why do you criticise the members in a way, they do not come back? Do you want the forum to yourself only? OR are you just a bully that never grown up?

Is that clear enough, Chagur?

I'm tempted to refer to you as 'young child' for some inexplicable reason. But that is neither here or there ... I just wanted to thank you for another chuckle re. your use of the word 'platitude':


Platitude cuts both ways? Considering that the definition of the word is:

Etymology: French, from plat flat, dull
Date: 1812
1 : the quality or state of being dull or insipid
2 : a banal, trite, or stale remark

You can understand why I found it so humorous.

hey all :)

oh dear... oh dear...
hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm

Communication is an art and should be treated as such when using a second language more so than a native one!

i.. myself as i am me do tend to think of me as to be i... rather than you, so then i talk as i am rather than as you might understand as much as to who i am rather than who i think you might be!

:D

One point that seems to stick out in my mind is that Israel used bullets to counter stones!
But they were the stone throwers in some cases.
Although in one you can clearly see they shoot a child being held by his father (to death) in front of TV cameras.
And they think it is normal???????????????
And the Israeli public thinks it is ok!
Look @ the guy who just got voted in as their president!

Palestinians are replying with suicide bombers!
-Just like the Japanese in WW2
maybe its karma?
HANG ON DID SOMEONE SAY ISRAELI/JEWS committing random genocide?

YUP it’s just another war with the excuse of god and religion to blame instead of Hitler replicas.
Could we call those sins of the fathers in a genealogical sense?
maybe?
Both see the other as inferior life forms and one has taken land by force and will not give it back or compromise.
The out come is clear...... WAR
I can only hope that all those who do not support it can get as far away as possible, and as for the American and other nationals who go there to live???????????????????
I hope they get the bomb intended for their neighbors!

It might not be long until there is a nuclear accident in one of the Gaza strip bunkers! :/

I think commonwealth countries should stop trading with them!

JUST REMEMBER-there is a huge amount of the USA owned by Jewish people! They will control the economy to help the genocide their home country is committing...THAT is why the USA turns a blind eye to the indiscriminate killing of civilians by Israeli military.

My opinion>>>>>>>>>
There seems to be soo many bulldozers in the Gaza strip...
Evict all the Israelis and start building a huge lake as a border

Maybe its time Israel started the one child family like china did!

Now that might have thrown the handgrenade among the caged pigeons :/ :D

.... Maybe people could offer suggestions on how we could look at solving some of the problems, instead of creating new ones?

oohhhh and one last thing> IT IS MY BELIEFE that any culture/country that teaches its children religion from the earliest point of speech is not teaching as much as BRAINWASHING!!!!!!!
:(

groove on all :)

BEBELINA

that was the second one just after the one mentioned at the start of the thread.
:(

groove on :)

WHEN THE OPPOSING SIDES CARE MORE FOR THEIR CHILDREN than they care to kill each other.........

Or when their children no longer carry the hate of their parents.


Many years ago, a young American girl wrote a letter (as a school project) to Mr. Gorbechov of the USSR. This is old cold wars days--now people.

I don't remember much about the letter except that the context of it was that she expressed to the Russian leader that she wondered (and worried) about growing up and having a family. The concern that was expressed to MR. Gorbechov was that she didn't know if she should even try to plan on having a family, if the USA & the USSR were just going to destroy the planet in a few years anyway!

The letter somehow made it's way to Gorbechov. And Mikail had grandchildren who were just about her age age at the time. It had it's effect. The was a marked change in attitude between the USSR & USA after that. The leaders realized that the opposing side had children who were innocent and unrespective of political borders. They (US & THEM) realized that we all are just holding the reins for a while, before we turn the Earth over to the next generation. It is NOT our right to destroy the World of our children. Who are we to assume the that every turn of the Earth depends on our moods toward those that we do not agree with.

That girl died in a plane crash, a year or so later. And Mikail Gorbechov publicly remembered it and sent a letter to her family, as I recall. AS I have lived through the times, I have often felt that she did much ......for world peace between two countries that were damn close to destroying the Earth.


<b>The Jews and the Palestians.</b> The fact is that they (both of them), hate each other more than they love their children. They must! Why else would they subject their children to the future that they are now laying out for them.....

Both sides believe in G OD!!!!!!!111111 AND they kill each other in the name of GOD! NO. Go over into the religious forums and listen to Tiassa & company, you'll find better christians there. At least Tiassa isn't out there killing other people in the name of GOD!! (or least I don't think that Tiassa is)??????

Not to be "shrink" about it, but it seems to me that the Jews & Palestians have become so used to hating one another that they wouldn't know what to do with their spare time, if the other were suddenly gone!

I think that they love to hate more than they love their children! Otherwise, they would bring an end to this FEUD.



feedback????.....questions????,,,,,insults???

hs/hs......:rolleyes: :D :cool:

HOWARDSTERN
Senior truth consultant



WHEN THE OPPOSING SIDES CARE MORE FOR THEIR CHILDREN....
WHEN THE OPPOSING SIDES CARE MORE FOR THEIR CHILDREN than they care to kill each other.........

Or when their children no longer carry the hate of their parents.


Many years ago, a young American girl wrote a letter (as a school project) to Mr. Gorbechov of the USSR. This is old cold wars days--now people.

I don't remember much about the letter except that the context of it was that she expressed to the Russian leader that she wondered (and worried) about growing up and having a family. The concern that was expressed to MR. Gorbechov was that she didn't know if she should even try to plan on having a family, if the USA & the USSR were just going to destroy the planet in a few years anyway!

The letter somehow made it's way to Gorbechov. And Mikail had grandchildren who were just about her age age at the time. It had it's effect. The was a marked change in attitude between the USSR & USA after that. The leaders realized that the opposing side had children who were innocent and unrespective of political borders. They (US & THEM) realized that we all are just holding the reins for a while, before we turn the Earth over to the next generation. It is NOT our right to destroy the World of our children. Who are we to assume the that every turn of the Earth depends on our moods toward those that we do not agree with.

That girl died in a plane crash, a year or so later. And Mikail Gorbechov publicly remembered it and sent a letter to her family, as I recall. AS I have lived through the times, I have often felt that she did much ......for world peace between two countries that were damn close to destroying the Earth.


The Jews and the Palestians. The fact is that they (both of them), hate each other more than they love their children. They must! Why else would they subject their children to the future that they are now laying out for them.....

Both sides believe in G OD!!!!!!!111111 AND they kill each other in the name of GOD! NO. Go over into the religious forums and listen to Tiassa & company, you'll find better christians there. At least Tiassa isn't out there killing other people in the name of GOD!! (or least I don't think that Tiassa is)??????

Not to be "shrink" about it, but it seems to me that the Jews & Palestians have become so used to hating one another that they wouldn't know what to do with their spare time, if the other were suddenly gone!

I think that they love to hate more than they love their children! Otherwise, they would bring an end to this FEUD.



feedback????.....questions????,,,,,insults???

hs/hs......

I would really have to agree with Howardstern on this one. Children are taught from an early age to hate, some aren't even taught but just think it a neccessity or a way of gaining acceptance.

I remember this guy at my high school who was Muslim and kept saying that he hated the Jews. So I asked him, "Why do you hate the Jews", to which he replied "aahh its a long story going way back", so I said, "how could you even hate someone that you've never met, have you ever known a Jew, do you know what they're like?", to his reply "look, I hate the Jews its a long story going back".

So a few weeks later in one class he started on his hate Jewish campaign. He said again when the tention started rising again a couple of years ago. "I hate the Jews, don't you see what there doing? Then my reply "You shouldn't hate anyone", his reply "yeah, your just on their side aren't you", my reply "actually, I'm not on anyones side I just think you shouldn't hate anyone" blah blah blah.

After that for another year and a half I had to take crap from him. he though that because I'm Christian I was with the Jews. What he didn't know was that the Jews persecuted the Christians long before the history of Muslims against Jewish people started. So I had notes saying rude things about me and about Jews put in my pencil case, things written on my ruler just the same and things written on my pencil case. As well as him treating me as lower than him while he was in front of his Muslim friends. Not that it really bothered me or anything, but it was kind of embarressing what he would do when I was with a Muslim friend. Kind of act all happy and loving towards them but kind of look at me with a sigh of contempt. I didn't want my Muslim friends thinking I was saying anything bad about Islam behind their backs, hence the embarrassment.

So I hope by this life experience it can be seen how people just hate for know reason. Another guy I knew in high school also hated Greeks because he was Persian decent. He hated people because some guy in the BC's decided the Greeks were his enemies.

But I reckon kmguru can back this up with a better life experience. He always seems to have a story or two to tell. :D

Actually, a couple of things I forgot to add.

Riple, I would have to disagree with saying Religion should not be taught to children when they are very young. Please remember, religion is not always an evil. It is when one intends to use religion for his or her own gain and lust for power, then it becomes evil. In my religion, people are taught to be loving, caring, genourous, patient, kind, love your neighbour, and above all love your God. These are positive attributes, and there is nothing that says you should hate, steal, lust, covet(I guess if your neighbour has more land than you, you should not be jealous of this, you should instead be thankful for what you have). If I were not taught these teachings, I would not be the same person today. God showed Himself to me when I was young, in my heart and by His actions, thus I am thankful to Him.

Hey all

-Deadwood
I agree with your idea/statement/philosophy/forwardslash :/ :)

I am referring more so (in my own mind :/ ) to the images of young Palestinians rocking back and forth like psych patients chanting the book thing.... And the constant reinforcement of importance and governing ideal of material wealth in Jewish TV programs.
One thing that has come to mind is that sometimes (even if you think you are in the rite) you should just keep your mouth shut
if nothing else to save your own respect and piece of mind!

a difficult lesson to apply in reality!


groove on all :)

So here we have the common theme of prejudice. Going back many centuries to establish to both sides while growing up that this is the way things are. You know my daddy's grandfather's grandfather hated them because they used slingshots to throw rocks at us. (no favorites here, so read it either way) It is hard to come back to reality after living this way for so long as a people. Not only that, but you have to tie religion into it. Different beliefs fighting over the same Holy Land. Both believe that it is theirs by right. Religion has been used to justify killing for a very long time. And it hasn't stopped here yet. Until the meanings of sharing, caring for others, and what is a wrong to an individual are grasped and embraced by both sides there will be no end, no peace, and no rest. This is something beyond both sides sitting down at a peace conference. If the people don’t buy it, it is not going to float.

I do post a lot of insulting & offensive sh......err crap! But just to let a few of you in on it, I actually do care about what happens to humanity. It is best to know me as someone who cares-- the rest of the offensive posturing & language isn't really me.

Ya'll probably knew that already, didn't you?///////

:eek:

This doesn't mean that HOWARD is going to be a politically correct, narrow minded, college boy from here on!!!!!!--though!!!

\


It's just that I am self-reminded, from time to time, that some people don't know to overlook the hype & racism.......that I put out. The truth is that I am very conscious of the plight of not only humanity, but of all life on this Earth.


PEACE THROUGH INTELLECT, MY BROTHERS & SISTERS.....

hey all :)

wet1.... true but how to get it to be practiced seems to be a stumbling block.. as such.

I must point out that this in its self seems to be all to real
and soo often people fall back to what is most pleasing to the ego
rather than what is best for all(this does not include the sacrifice of one for the spiritual betterment of the many)

howard... was it you that referred to the mammalian brain as a source of blame for such a thing of similar nature?

if so should we start the abstractions???
or have they already begun? :D

:)

I have been there and know what goes on
read down and let me explain the situation.

There is one bottom line to the situation; arafat wants 100% of his proposed plan. did you forget camp david when he was offered 90% and he turned the offer down???

furthermore 60% of people poled in the disputed areas (all palestinians) said they liked the israeli government and wanted to keep things the way they are.

the only reason the majority doesnt have the say is because they dont want to be at war with their own people.

Israel wants peace. ask anyone. arafat has the ability to make peace but he refuses. dont forget the olympics in munich when he headed an assassination of Israeli atheletes. I cant believe of the appeasement he was given by later recieving a nobel peace prize.

I can tell you that they hate jews. The arafat fanatics are jelous of our success. Its nothing to do with jews against muslims.....its to do with petulant palestinian adults who hate jews. I can tell you I have many muslim friends and its not a religious war on the israeli side. Israel is not fighting muslims religion, but rather unrully 4 year olds who were taught by arafat fanatics to kill. (dont forget saddam)

TO THE USA
These unrully people are not only against Israel but also against the USA so dont be bad mouthing Israel. We've (jews) tried for peace and peace is a compramisation of utilitarianistic views not an overwhelming imbalance to one side. If there were to be a war you would have no other choice than to side with the israeli's because the likes of saddam huessein and arafat are all the same. and would nuke you all if given the chance.

dont be blindsighted. its in prophecy and in the bible. this is how ww3 will come about. it should happen in 2006 according to the bible code. and if all goes as prophesized then 'Not one of the house of essau shall be left standing on the earth' (not particularly muslims but the troublemakers who want war)

brace yourselves because its coming and don't forget what side you belong on.

I apologize to anyone whom I may have offended in this posting but my comments are sincere to the highest degree and all information I have given is TRUTHFULL.

hey all :)

elbaz...
i understand your points and do agree with them in principal.
However...
There are 2 things i think need to be addressed on the Israeli side!

I personally have a big problem with country’s that dictate one certain religion as a state doctrine of societal rule.

Soo... it would seem that if a person was not Jewish then they should not live in Israel......?
Is that logical in light of the social system?

I do realise that there may be many people who are not Jewish in religion but do live in Israel!
...but do they live in the shadows?

*I must state i am delving maybe too far into societal philosophy :/
My 2 points!-

one ; Israel have failed to demolish Palestinian infrastructure in a period of "globally assumed" war...(in light of civilian casualties on both sides it is a clear definition).

Two ; repatriation of all people who choose not to support Arafats suicide bombs as Israeli’s and then build the biggest kick arse wall with lots of land mines in between with a huge water way and a angry crocodile breeding program to fill it!
...plant some really big trees and start to forget who they choose to live next door to!
oooohhhhhhh and one more thing... redirect some of those spy agency funds to a missile defense business that competes with the USA! :D

BUT (the ever present word in such situations)
that is mealy one extreme view of a person who thought someone might want to solve the issue once and for all! :/

-I would be surprised to hear any government state they have not broken basic human rights, i personally believe they would be lying based on the law of probability and vast infiltration of perverse humans in every level of society.

IT MAKES ME FEEL SICK TO MY STOMACH when i replay the images in my mind of the Israeli soldiers being lynched by the Palestinian "civilian" mob!
- thus i can understand the feeling of blood lust that could brew in the hearts (of family)and minds of all those who watched such an act of in-human satanic blood orgy.
Maybe if Israel had carpet-bombed the area immediately, they might have illustrated the reality of the situation.

MAY THEY ALL BE HUMBLED BY THE SHEAR MIGHT AND POWER
OF MOTHER NATURE... MOTHER EARTH!


:)

Attempting to balance the Israel/Palestine question with some views from a different perspective is truly difficult. The Israeli position is so dominant, and vitrually unquestioned, in North America and Europe. There are two sides to a debate though, and before we all go thinking that Israel is the poor hard done by country here, let's try a different perspective on this.

To the messianic message man from Calgary, I have never been pesuaded by any religious text. You're going to be looking a bit silly when 2006 rolls around and none of this happens. But that's beside the point.

The failure to make peace is all down to those Palestinian trouble-makers. Israel, that paragon of justice and peacefulness, is doing all it can, but how can Israelis negotiate with fanatics? Quite. They have offered peace, but had it turned down. Indeed.

First. Israel invaded the West Bank in 1967. There is a UN resolution demanding that Israel hands it back. It has been 34 years now. If you invade and annex a country, offering 90% back is hardly a 'compromise'. Suppose Iraq had offered to return 90% of Kuwait? If Israel truly wants peace, leave the West Bank. That simple.

Second. Israel NEVER offered 90%. That is propoganda circulated by Israeli negotiators to make them look less blameworthy. Read the terms of the Oslo accord and subsequent deals and find where it says this. It doesn't. But even if it was offered, it never would have been accepted by the Knesset. Israel did not live up to its side of an imperfect agreement. Netenyahu did everything he could to destroy it. The man who could have delivered it was assassinated and now the country is ruled by a man under investigation by the Hague for war crimes. He won't even stop building settlements in areas Israel is supposed to hand back! That doesn't look to Palestinians like Israel wants peace.

If we accept that Israel can hang on to some of its gains (territorial gain through military conquest), then we can hardly blame the Palestinians for violence. Yes the attacks are aimed at civilians, and that is sad, but I can understand the anger. Protest on the street and get shot. Write articles and get imprisoned (as my friend was). No one listens to anything except violence. And it was, lest we forset, Jewish nationalists in the 1930s that invented terrorism - attacking British colonial rulers at the same time as Britain was fighting Hitler. They got a country in that way, why not the Palestinians whose cause was ignored until 1970? It's a shame really, because not only do more innocents die, but the Palestinians just case is lost amid the bloodshed. It is, in my view, self-defeating but I understand it.

The Palestinians aren't asking for much. Not all of the West Bank and Gaza strip as international law demands, but what was offered and agreed. That is humiliation enough - to be reliant on the invaders for a tiny chunk of what was once your own country. But as the Palestinians wait, as the terms dictate, the building and encroachment goes on. Then hand-overs are stalled. Then areas are re-negotiated. Then all of Jerusalem is gone. Then an alleged war criminal with a history of anti-Arab views is elected. And all the time you talk, lose faith, grow bitter that the sacrifices you make are being ignored and used to buy time and expand Israeli occupation, entrenching it. Finally, Sharon, the most hated figure in Palestine, symbolically visits a Muslim shrine to underline Israel's rule of a subjugated people. You call this willingness for peace? Enough was enough. Now the world takes notice, but sadly PR skills are not first and foremost among the Palestinians who are unjustly cast as villains - head-butting the bullets as it were.

Sanctions on Israel. A willingness from the international community to do what is right rather than what is convenient (it will be better in the end, trust me). Justice for Palestinians. Palestinians who now have no rights to land where their fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers (and on) grew up, but where a jewish citizen in the US who has never set foot on Israel does. Is that just?

I must agree with you two, that Israel is not all perfect.....but I think there are some things that I think you do not completely know of. I cant remember to which of you I am giving each point out so I will do it randomely.

For one thing a Jewish state primarily built for jews is not as discriminating as it may seem. All you have to do is look around the world and in any place you can see that jews do not feel completely at home, nor are accepted, completely ( ok places like the USA where there are large amounts could be considered havens) but it was built as a reclamation of land where jews would have a center, reclaimed after thousands of years. People werent tortured and nuked for the space but it became a religious war because before it became a state palestine didnt want ANY jews in their country and made life hard on them.

Ofcourse it is true that it was bloody but what you cant live as an unwanted guest in your country nor should you want to leave because of that.

Before it became a state the USA officially acknowldged it as one and they became, I believe, a parlimentary dictatorship. This means no one living in the country will be discriminated against and it would be punishable by law to do so. No one is discriminated against and Israel doesnt have societal laws like a president or mp would have to be jewish. Any person can be. This open mindedness is part of the reason they came from middle ages in the fifties to even more cutting edge than north america nowadays.

One post said that the US is pro israel because jews basically own everything. so think about it...if jews around the world own pretty much everthing relative to our population of 12 million. then israel being the convergance center is on top of everything..reason for their success. If Israel were to falter than everyone even the palestinians would feel the effect.


Bottom line----------israel is mostly jewish similar to places like spain where people are mostly catholic and so on. there is no tyranny.

Secondly let me refresh your memory on 1967-summer of love. it was yom kippur the holliest day of the year for the jews--no electricity no food no water not even work is allowed. all the countries in the middle east like egypt lebbannon ect. decided in a carefully planned strategy to throw the jews into the sea once and for all. They took a cheap shot on yom kippur.......everyone in the world expected israel to cease to exist. One of the most shocking wars in history israel took control of the entire middle east in 6 days.

(((((France was against israel too. the israelis ordered 5 war ships from frances-paying the money in advance and during the war the french would not send the ships. A high ranking jewish officer ordered the ships be transfered to israel and later claimed refuggee status there. If he came back to france then he would get in big big caka.))))

they wanted the jews out and lost miserably although israel did return the gaza to egypt and even parts of the west bank to palestine. I think they should have kept EVERYTHING because after all, all is fair in true love and war.

ALSO the israelis have big nuclear bomb (which by the way where invented by jews - einstein and oppenheimer) and missile power..power of which they need no more than they have. relative to the 7 million population of israel....they have the best army in the world and could have dessimated infrastructure in palestine but notice that in 50 years israel has taken no cheap shots only integral and completely neccessary steps to bring peace. The only thing standing in the way are the palestinian fanatics who still want another chance to wipe the jews into the sea.....but let me remind you that nowadays any such 6 day war would not end without nukes which is why israel has not wanted to kill arafat or destroy more infrastructure than absolutely needed. I WANT PEACE but I will not sacrifice all for it if they dont sacrifice all for it. By the way we'll see how 2006 ends.

Once again you do make your points but let them be completely informed. Peace is mutual---I agree but BOTH sides must keep that mind not just the bigger side.

Well, speaking of completely informed points, I'm afraid that you have made numerous factual errors.

The 1967 war was the six-day war, an attack launched by Israel. Call it pre-emptive if you'd like, but the fact remains Israel initiated hostilities. This was the war in which Israel took the West Bank and Gaza strip, setting up the 1973 war, the Yom Kippur or October war, launched by the Arabs. I do know the histroy of the region.

Israel is not like Spain. Spain does not give catholics in Mongolia (if there are any!) more property rights than jews in Barcelona. The right of all jews to live in Israel is a religious distinction.

As you have argued for a Jewish 'reclaimation' of land, I assume the principle is one you believe universal. In that case, I suggest you vacate your house in Canada to make way for the original inhabitants. Oh, you won't be paid for it, and your neighbours homes may be bulldozed. You may be fortunate enough to find a country to take you in as a refugee, unlike the stateless Palestinians in 1948 and 1956. If you're really lucky you won't be massacred as Palestinians were at Dayr Yasin. (I draw your attention to the following link, from an Israeli historian, if you believe ethnic cleansing and sytematic murder is somthing the Jewish state is incapable of: http://www.birzeit.edu/crdps/village.html)

All's fair in love and war? A recipe for destruction certainly, and I assume that Hitler is thus blameless as are Saddam Hussein and Palestinian 'fanatics'. Let the indiscriminate bombing continue as you suggest. I don't want to hear a word of outrage raised against Palestinian attacks in this case, all is fair after all.

Necessary steps for peace? Ask Israeli Arabs who have now grown tired of being treated as third class citizens. MK Bishari is threatened with exppulsion form parliament and legal charges for simply speaking with Syrians. Twelve Israeli-Arab citizens were killed while demonstrating against Israeli brutality earlier this year. Several victims showing 'execution style' bullet wounds in the back of the neck. This would never happen to Jewish Israeli citizens. And where is the justice? The cover-up continues, no-one will answer for their crimes.

I'm disappointed to see you argue from a global Jewish perspective. I have no problem with Jews, and accept that they have had a bad time. I do have a problem with Israel though, and I don't think that the mere fact of suffering terrible discrimination then gives you the right to perpetrate it. I'm talking about the state of Israel, not jews elsewhere or the contribution to the world.


I say again, Sharon doesn't want peace, he wants expansion. Through the past decade Israel has moved towards peace sporadically and gone back on their word given in Oslo numerous times. There comes a time when you have to stop saying compromise, and start saying justice. I don't see why leaving the West Bank is that impossible. It would mean peace which is, after all, what you want. Gain through conquest has no place in the twentieth century, but then I forgot, everything goes. In that case, the ultimate demise of Israel is the future, and they may take Arab states down with them, but who needs a Pyhhric victory?

MK Bishari is threatened with exppulsion form parliament and legal charges for simply speaking with Syrians

he faces the same obligations and rights as any israeli parlament member(which is more than can be said about the "parlaments" in the nations around Israel) and he won't get anything since our suprem court will rule that it is against the democracy system or whatever to punish him (you should check what the Israeli suprem court deals with you will find one of the most justice doing courts in the world.)

go ask an Israeli arabs if they had a chance where would they wanna live? Israel,west bank/gaza,jordan,syria,leb,egypt.


Twelve Israeli-Arab citizens were killed while demonstrating against Israeli brutality earlier this year. Several victims showing 'execution style' bullet wounds in the back of the neck. This would never happen to Jewish Israeli citizens. And where is the justice? The cover-up continues, no-one will answer for their crimes.

when the 1st stone is in the air or any other such acts it is not a demonstration it is a riot

Israeli police would use ruber bullets and other messures (yes even live ammo) towards jewish rioting if needed as well.
but for some reason jewsih israeli demonstrations don't have a tendency to throw stuff on the police and be a hazard to thier life.


go ask an israeli arabs how they hide deep in thier houses or go away when a celebration of some sort goes on in thier homes
due to fearing bullets.

don't get me wrong i am not a racist i think it is all due to education and the local culture.
for an instance among arabs living in usa,canada,uk,australia
such events are not common(if ever) and other dumb tirbal acts that can be seen among arabs living in arabic/islamic nations.
u can see it in Israel as well
among israeli arabs infamily killings are not as common as with the bedwins living in the south of Israel or as in egypt or such
while i doubt there is any among arabs living in the west world(in comparison the local population)

Odd how Jewish-Israelis don't seem to die at the hands of the Israeli police, but Arab-Israelis do. And of course during a riot it is obvious why you'd need to shoot a rioter at close range in the back of the head. Clearly a threat. Not all of those killed were even rioting.

Here in the UK, uncultured, stupid and uncivilised as we are, there have been recent riots where stones were thrown, cars set a blaze, police attacked. For some reason the police managed to quell the situation without using rubber bullets or, maddest of all, live ammunition. I guess the Israeli police are either incompetent or trigger-happy. We try not to kill off the citizens here. Bit of a vote loser (probably the reverse in Israel).

I'll retract my words when the police open fire on Israeli Jews. A senior reporter for H'aretz has said that such a thing is inconceivable, even in a riot.

I knew that eventually this discussion would escalate to a point that there would be biased arguing, even I must admit that I have been slightly biased. But isnt the truth that we all have slid to one side of the ship somehow. Lets not forget that the common belief in this thread is that there should be peace. Some of my information is misinformed....sure, but I'm just 15 and I dont have an acute knowledge of world history but to captain canada didnt the british expel all jews from britain, and didnt they claim land all over the world including canada and mistreat the people......ie forcing them to convert and saying how primitive and disgusting they are. Admit it...your country has been far more brutal and considering I was born in canada I think I have as much a right to live here as the natives who were born here. I'm sorry I ever got involved in this conservation because there are so many little details to be considered. israelis have a right to live on annexed land just as the arab israelis have a right to live on the annexed land too if they want. there is no special rule saying it is all for the jews. They have never been racists and by the way all the signs were there that they were going to attack first. Israel only surprised them early in the morning only a few hours ahead of what the spys had thought before they would be attacked themselves. This is not a simple problem which is why there cant be a simple compramisation. Frankly I hope they get peace cause thats what I want. If I ever go there again I want to feel safe walking the streets in jerusalem. End of discussion as far as I am concerned. I'm sorry If I have offended anyone but they are purely my thoughts on the issue. Brittain ain't so perfect. There are so many things that I wanted to say in response but I really dont care if anyone knows what they are anyway. I'll be leaving the city till monday so if you write back I cant respond.


nevermind everything I just wrote

Lets just comprimise this argument by saying that both sides are wrong and need to make peace. I really dont care anymore. I think you must agree that this argument is getting way out of hand.

THE END ((appropriately))

I don't know that the debate has gotten out of hand. As far as I am aware, I have said nothing racist, offensive or unture. The purpose of a message board is to post messages in order to hold a debate. If you don't like hearing opposing views, or the direction of the thread, ignore me - move to another thread.

I'm sorry if you feel that I have in some way been insulting, insulted or over-bearing. I simply try and counter what you must admit is a highly biased media interpretation of the Israel-Palestine conflict. I think Arab-bashing and fear of Islam are major problems. By no means are the Muslims entirley virtuous (Afghanistan etc.), but by no means are they as evil as is commonly protrayed. There is a lot of demonisation going on in the US, with drugs as well, as the military looks for threats to justify an inordinate defence budget. To be honest, a degree of flexibility over Israel and acceptance of Islam would help the world towards peace no end. My view anyway.

I do take some issue with posting a series of statements (which I happen to disagree with) and then declaring the thread closed. We're not here for censorship. I have said all that I care to about the Palestinians in this thread - I can see that my statements will have little impact in a debate that is already pre-decided. Nonetheless, if you have any comments to make, I'm happy to listen, but I will not cease from posting beacuse you don't like the direction of the debate.

Well in response to that I have to tell you that the only reason I thought this conversation was getting out of hand is because I've had previous bad experiences on sites that I've been kicked out of for voicing my true opinion. I didnt want that to happen on sciforums because I really like this place. I just want you to know that I am not letting you win this debate but I really think that it is getting nowhere. They have supposedly been working on peace for like 10 years now and they still dont have it. How do we expect to find a way for peace or a right side in this little thread?

Anyway I'll be leaving in 1 hour and not coming back till monday. But I thought I should just check this thread before I left.

Originally posted by Elbaz
The only thing standing in the way are the palestinian fanatics

I suppose Ariel Sharon does not qualify as a fanatic? I don't think any thinking man, would go with an armed escort to someones else's religious shrine & not think there would be trouble? But that is what I think he had in mind. Kick a hornets nest, & you get a lot of very mad hornets!

Wasn't it also a Jewish extremist who killed Rabin? Sometimes it is ones in ones own country who dashes hopes of peace as well.

Also a racist is a person who says something negative towards another persons race. Example: If I said all White people are stupid I would be recist towards whites which I aint. However, if I backed that up with facts(which would be very hard to do for every white person) then it would be ok. For instance, all Nazi's hate Jews. This wouldn't be racist but fact. So don't worry about being racist if you are pointing out facts and personal experiences with a certain race of people, because you are just telling the truth which should not be hidden.

Elbaz, I'm thinking this discussion is very mild compared to the "religious thread" on this site. But as long as we don't resort to swearing, name calling and stupid comments we should be right.

It's not about winning or losing an argument, it's about hearing different perspectives that are not so forthcoming. To learn something new (for all of us) must be the objective. To form an opinion based on knowledge of all the arguments must mean the opinion is stronger. I try to keep an open mind on these issues.

As yet, I've heard nothing to alter my view that the onus lies with Israel. If Israel ceased settlement building (as the Mitchell report requires), ended incursions into the Palestinian controlled areas and adopted softer policing ending the assassiniation of Palestinian leaders, then I would have little option but to suggest that Palestinians stopped the violence and returned to talks. As the 'civilised' state in the dispute, the onus must be on Israel to end the cycle of revenge attacks, not escalate it. But Israel really needs to build confidence that they are genuinely interested in creating a free Palestinian state. With Sharon in power, this looks unlikely. So what are the Palestinians to do? Quietly accept Zionist expansion and killing while they wait for a fair deal that may never come? We must remember who are the oppressed and who are the oppressors.

well I'm glad that I've finally found a good forum that accepts different pov's. I never got kicked of that other forum for swearing, though. Nevertheless, I still think that any person has a right to settle on land that has been annexed. If they are so serious about getting some back, then why dont they settle there. I'm sure there are plenty of whealthy palestinians around the world who could do so? Israel is a small country and with few places to settle, especially around jerusalem I think its alright considering that, that land is holly to almost everyone around the world. leaving out the east. The palestinians want all of it when anyone should be able to settle there including them.

Sure there are political lines with specific jurisdictions but when it all comes down to things. It really doesnt matter what lines your in. Israel gives EVERYONE equal rights not just the jews. Lines dont matter. Let them get over it.

By the way the US did the same thing to canada. war of 1812 which turned out to be a draw. Canada already owned oregon and washington. I cant remember how, but somehow the us was GIVEN it after the war claiming it had been theres. Canada didnt care though. if you wanted to live there you would just follow US law. We can get along with the americans why cant they?

As far as I know of, no one has been kicked out of Sciforums for expressing an opinion. Usually it is for vulgarity, bad behaviour, and extremely bad manners. Neither of which I see applying here, though I can not speak for Porfiry. So I would say relax, you are doing fine, Elbaz. To express one's opinion through reasonable debate is what Sciforms is all about. That and the exposure to new ideas and new discoveries.

Did Israel promise to give some land back to Palestine 50 years ago? This is what I was told last year by a Muslim.

But I know that from how all of the Muslims reacted last year at my school(not Middle Eastern) its not about two countries. Its about Islam vs Judaism and its time to get revenge. Someone got expelled from my school last year for putting up anti-Jewish stuff, graffitti or a poster or something. It was pure anger. At my school if you were Jewish you were going to get bashed up. Where is the love?

You're right, Deadwood, about the fact that it has become sortof an islam vs jewish fight. There are gang violence things at specific places like western Canada high school in my city where there are religion based fights. But I can tell you that its mostly religion oriented on the palestinian side. not being biased or anything but people talk about the palestinian violence not muslims in particular.

I have nothing against the muslims. Infact my dad grew up in morocco where most of the people are muslims. They got along very well and still do nowadays despite problems in the middle east.

This is not a squable that will end easilly. I think it could possibly turn into a ww3 type situation. I hope that they can get peace but I still stand strong to my views.

Originally posted by wet1
As far as I know of, no one has been kicked out of Sciforums for expressing an opinion. Usually it is for vulgarity, bad behaviour, and extremely bad manners. Neither of which I see applying here, though I can not speak for Porfiry. So I would say relax, you are doing fine, Elbaz. To express one's opinion through reasonable debate is what Sciforms is all about. That and the exposure to new ideas and new discoveries.


<B>THAT BRINGS UP AN INTERESTING POINT, DAVE! Why haven't I been banned yet???????</b>

I have nothing against the muslims. Infact my dad grew up in morocco where most of the people are muslims. They got along very well and still do nowadays despite problems in the middle east

hmm in maroc they are not that muslem
on thier t.v u can see girls dress up like in mtv
and among the progs they air u can find the suprano family(that mob usa seria in which u can see some tits)
dou know what they would do to you if u were found in egypt with a video tape of it ?

the level of islam in arabic/islamic nations can be judged by thier t.v and media.

maroc is not a fanatic islamic nation

egypt also tries to be that way but they can not due to the wrath of some fanatic people(the muslem brothers movment and such crap they even wanna destroy historic sites like in afganistan and they were incharge in terror attacks on those hisotirc sites ,mostly they kidnap jap,geri tourists.

My mum just told me that Lebonese Muslims are targeting white women and raping them at knife point. Is this because they don't wear a head covering so they are up for grabs? (I mean this seriously)

Most dont do it at all. I think that the muslim religion, though, does allow things like that to happen. I'm not entirely sure but they do allow some terrible things like justifiable murder in some cases. Even the jewish religion does technically allow murder once every 75 years if neccessary although I totally disagree that it should be allowed.

As far as the 'up for grabs' belief, I dont think so. EG if you see a woman without any top on, on a beach here, then would you think its okay to rape her. Most people know that rape especially at knife point is wrong.

So to sum it up you dont have to be muslim in order to rape someone cause nomatter what religion you are it is wrong (except satanists). And they probably do it because they consider it an insult to not wear coverings in their community. I say women should wear coverings just to respect the people over there because it is THEIR home, but that does not justify rape. I am pretty sure that those cases are isolated and rare. you only hear of them because of media.

why do u talk shit around?

raping got nothing to do with religion ,it is all about culture.

and btw there are only about 20 mil jews world wide i am sure there are more satanists world wide(altough they are divded into like zilion cells/groups ?!?) and i am sure they do not have a huge raping rate.

it is all due to what nation u live in.
in some islamic/arabic nations if u are found that u raped in your family you will get a a way more severe punishment than if u killed that person and claimed it was cause that person violated the family/culture integrity and such crap.
and in some arabic/islamic nations u do not.

for an instance can you even begin 2 compare yemen or afganistan with turkey? or jordan?

look what goes on in afrrica and those are xtians.


altough some times wars/clashes among arabic/islamic nations got raping going on
iraq-kuwait.
jordan-pals black september.
or all those xtian-muslem and such clashes in some "new-old" nations in europe
but hey look what japan did in ww2.


in fact in the bible the book that is consisted out of tales passed down from father to son and way more later assimilated into a single book which xtians and muslems so fanaticly care to paste
and quote stuff like mad people even on this web-page out of an english translation and yet dare to say it is the word of god and that it is 100% truth (yet no matter it is just a translation which means that even a 99.9999 is not a 100%).
it was allowed for us jews to take the females of those we had a clash/war with besides a single event if the other side is AMALEK
which we must wipe it from the face of the earth.
and we got punished by god since we failed to do it and we dared to spare and not kill /rape some of them .

If there are more displaced Satanists than Jews, perhaps we should consider establishing a homeland for them where they can live and worship in peace without fear of persecution.

satanists are not being persecuted in any nation.
and besides satanists are too much divided there are too many different cults and variants and such
even more than xtians are.

Do you not recognise irony when you see it?

Okay guys,

I didnt try to insult satanists. I have nothing against them. But lets face it, their religion emphasizes worshiping the devil and evil as I've heard. Just incase you didnt know, Evil is NOT a good thing and it most likely leads to higher crime rates, and some even accept crime as an integral part of life. I have nothing against them. Arent you guys against political correctness????

I'm against political correctness. If you say you don't have a problem with evil then you've never had anyone steal anything from you and that is called political correctness then I don't want to be a part of it. Its all gone too far.

Even Jews are divided. Who are the Essenes, Pharisees and I forget the other sect. What about Israel and Judah. Radical, you don't even believe in the bible from what I've read of your posts.

Evil is NOT a good thing

Quite.

Radical
Do you not recognise irony when you see it?



why did you see it? i heard they sent a search and rescue team to find it.


I didnt try to insult satanists. I have nothing against them. But lets face it, their religion emphasizes worshiping the devil and evil as I've heard. Just incase you didnt know, Evil is NOT a good thing

what sort of a jew are you Elbaz?

only xtians 1st saw the satan as evil and all that crap and the on going battle of the dark side with the "light" and such crap
(what the fuck? red ants VS black ants? are u a communist elbaz?)

jews think of satan as nothing but another minion of GOD

worshiping satan is like worshiping a rock instead of the entire universe (if u do choose to worship) .

only xtians and later the ones that adopted some of xtianity(muslems) think in those "new" good vs evil terms and defenitions
therefore satanists,anti christ or such crap emerged out of xtianity
so u have two sides to pick the light or the dark one(xtianity did it all by herself in raising those cults)
EVIL is a good thing same as GOOD is a good thing they all come from GOD ask job he knows.



what is wrong with political correctness?
well it gives a chance for the right way !!!




Even Jews are divided. Who are the Essenes, Pharisees and I forget the other sect. What about Israel and Judah. Radical, you don't even believe in the bible from what I've read of your posts.


hmm jews are not divided like xtianity or islamic varianst and strains


the only thing that matters deadwood is that you chose to paste stuff out of a book that passed down from father to son by the power and verification of a spoken word which later was consisted into a book which was translated to your language so that u can paste it here and think about it
and u think that it is 100% the same(dude!!! it went a translation what gives?)

For one thing I am against it. its illegal to say the truth if it might hurt someone. Quite a while ago a teacher of mine told me how They rewrote some history that was true for 200 years in order to not hurt some natives, thats what I call communism.

Secondly Let me remind you that I am only 15. I dont even know much about my own religion. If I ever missadress anything then PLEASE point me in the right direction. I heard that we did believe in evil and such.

But to tell you the truth I'm glad that we dont believe satan is evil. The more I thought about it the more I thought that since it all comes from god then how can it go against him, right? My mom told me things like astrology and tarot cards weegeeboards etc were from the devil according to jews. Thats how I got mislead.

Also, one final thing. I heard people like satanists do things like drink blood. Is this true. Havent they had some gross ritualistic pasts?? Just take out my beliefs on satanists. I'll admit I was wrong on that.

Reminder, If I do give false information, please point it out to me. I'm only 15 and world history is not imprinted in my brain.

Leave those poor Satanists alone. What have they ever done to anyone?