The Left's Attack on Bush (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12950)

And i would recommend you all to read :
From Russia With Terror and Spain's Surrender
Here:Link (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/authors.asp?ID=3)

Simply appalling. The left should be more restrained, like the right was during the Clinton Administration. Restrain them!

From your first link:
Why is the Left so hysterical in its opposition to Bush? Why has it chosen to side with the Bin Ladens and Husseins of this world, rather than support the American President in his effort to bolster American and Western security?

A sincere argument for rising above reactionary bullshit is worth making, but yours immediately falls down in its own reactionary bullshit. I could waste time refuting the smears on the allegiences of dissenting Americans, and on the effectiveness of the Bush Administration in bolstering our security- But that doesn't seem like the intent of the thread.

Please try again: I would suggest providing a few verifiable examples of unwarranted or unsubstatiated attacks from the left on the Bush White House.

let's not say "all liberals are bad"
some liberals support the war in Iraq and the war on terror very loudly and proudly

instead, if it smells like shit and looks like shit, we should call it for what it is: a Fifth Column

Listen hypewaders , read firstFrom Russia With Terror (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12387) and
and Spain's Surrender (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12632) .
to understand the whole picture better .

I did, and it has refreshed my memory of a mindset forged in the cold war, that Israel and America are the leading beacons and agents in the world of justice, and Communists, leftists, terrorists, intellectuals, and yuppies are in shadowy collusions to bring down a new Dark Age on the world, because they openly or secretly hate freedom, democracy, and (most of them) the Jews.

Now, I don't see the efficiency of refuting these articles you have linked, which I did take the time to read carefully, in order to have a discussion about what you have termed "The Left's Attack on Bush".

Could you please start with your own example of one specific attack?

it was better if i linked those Russian and spain articles first , to put things into the right perspective .

and then you'l understand that the left's in the USA just doing what the soviet KGB planned for ...
making from the USA a banana republic .

Could you please start with your own example of one specific attack?

Here's a link to balance things out a bit. http://www.guerrillanews.com/war_on_terrorism/doc3633.html

it's that people of USA against bush and his policy , and its not about specific attack...

what really does matter its that the people of USA are divided, and this is the real goal .
to divide the people .

have you heard about this ancient policy "Divide and Rule" (http://alochona.org/magazine/2002/april/politics.htm) .

by this policy they going to achieve what they want .
and the blast in spain is the best example for their action , when they basicly divided the people of spain , and made that the people of spain elected the socialist .
when the government of spain doing what the terrorist want .
and basicly they divided spain and USA , when spain don't want any relation anymore with USA and its war .
slowly they going to achieve that with whole europe , and left the USA all alone .

Muslims are just the soviet puppets , they are the "useful fools" of russia for the dirty work .

-=Edit=-
HAH , you even got example in the above post by "Repo Man" ... very lame attempt to play with human brains / emotions

HHHHmmm, so presumably, democracies dont work if everyone is divided, because that means that people cant get to what they want to do and say what they want to say, because they are divided........

"when they basicly divided the people of spain "

How about the majority of them were united in disgust at the way the gvt tried to spin the attack?

HHHHmmm, so presumably, democracies dont work if everyone is divided, because that means that people cant get to what they want to do and say what they want to say, because they are divided........

"when they basicly divided the people of spain "

How about the majority of them were united in disgust at the way the gvt tried to spin the attack?

About democracy , its all good ... to it has to be protected .
this is exactly the exploit in democracy when it comes about "Divide and Rule" .
and they using it .

and about that they were united , what its got to do ... explain

The Spanish gov't spit on the social contract it had with her population. Going to war even though most of the population did not agree with the war was the last straw. A democratic gov't listens to its population on such important issues like a war. This isn't a budget, ppl lives are at stake. The Spanish ppl had very good reasons to be angry at the Anzar gov't, not only did he not listen to their overt protests, it caused over 100 ppl and 1000 ppl to get injured for a lie which is the Iraq War. The ouster of the conservatives in Spain was a force of democracy, not one of terrorism.

roughly speaking, the general opi9nion is tha tthe election would have been close, but a win for the incumbents. However, they spun the bombing a bit too much as being Basque separatists, and it also reminded people of the gvts joining in the war in iraq. thus, people united in rejecting a gtvt that did stuff they didnt want them to, and went too far in use of political spin.

"this is exactly the exploit in democracy when it comes about "Divide and Rule" ."

But thats the point about a democracy, you cannot expect it to rally together. thus, it is a weak spot, but also the ultimate protection of the individuals right to do and say (within limits) as they please. You seem to be veering towards fascism as a preferred response to an attack on a democracy.

The ouster of the conservatives in Spain was a force of democracy, not one of terrorism.
the terrorist attacks were the main driving force in changing the government in Spain
the socialists scored an unexpected win. before the attacks they were trailing in the polls


Before the attacks, polls gave Rajoy[ruling party's candidate, since Aznar was leaving after 2 terms]`s party a 3-5% point lead over the Socialists in the race for the 350-seat Congress of Deputies.
link (http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=43589&pt=n)

the terrorists know they cannot beat Spain (or the US) militarily, so they use the democratic process (the West greatest asset) as a tool against it, turning it into a liability

now, all a terrorist needs to do to influence domestic and foreign policy, is bring a bomb to some public place and bomb away!

the government is replaced, the troops are withdrawn, policy changes as dictated by the terrorists, national tactical and strategic objectives are not achieved

But your assuming that said national tactical and strategic objectives are "right", "proper" and "desirable" etc.

the simple point is that this is indeed something of a problem with democracy, but not one that I am unduly worried about. The alternative is a set up in which the gvt can declare that a war is in progress, and all normal procedures do not count.

Perhaps you could explain how marginalisation of Spain will reduce the USA's activities in Iraq?

Otheadp:
"now, all a terrorist needs to do to influence domestic and foreign policy, is bring a bomb to some public place and bomb away!"

They did. Or do you agree with the conspiracy theorists that september the 11th was planned before hand by the USA administration? Or will you merely accept that it triggered the USA to change its domestic and foreign policy in order to attack Afghanistan and Iraq and start the war on terror?

But it doesn't negate the fact that the gov't did not listen to the collective will of the ppl. The 3-5% gap is most likely within the statistical margin of error. So really the election was a dead heat. The country voted as a democracy should vote, for the ppl not for the oligarchy.

nico:
when polls are released, the potential marginal error points are already taken into account.
even if they aren't in this particular poll, i don't know what your assumption that it's "most likely within the statistical margin error" is based on.

guthrie:
"right", "proper" and "desirable" are subjective. i think the administration is in a better position than anyone to judge what is best for the country, based on all their information, and considering all alternatives
of course, not everyone agrees with them. public opinion is often in the way of a lot of right, proper, and desirable decisions (not always, of course)

let's take bin Laden for example
if he was taken out 3 weeks before 9-11, 9-11 would still've happened
and people would've claimed that al-Qaeda has retaliated to bin-Laden's killing
they would've punished the administration that would've taken him out

or, let's say another Oklahoma happens
the public will be reconsidering the war on terror

then, the LA airport goes boom, the public will be angry by now.
the opposing party (no matter who's in power) will create a media buzz, the conspiracy theorists will have record hits to their blogs

then, a dirty bomb is released in Las Vegas
by now the public will demand the end to the 'war on terrorism'

a quick magical solution will be sought, and many stupid short-run feel-good decisions will be made to appease the sheep

"The main argument against democracy is to spend five minutes with the average voter" -- Churchill

Simply appalling. The left should be more restrained, like the right was during the Clinton Administration. Restrain them!

From your first link:

A sincere argument for rising above reactionary bullshit is worth making, but yours immediately falls down in its own reactionary bullshit. I could waste time refuting the smears on the allegiences of dissenting Americans, and on the effectiveness of the Bush Administration in bolstering our security- But that doesn't seem like the intent of the thread.

Please try again: I would suggest providing a few verifiable examples of unwarranted or unsubstatiated attacks from the left on the Bush White House.

Whirlwind opines....

What's with this "The left against George W. Bush, bullsh!t?

George W. Bush (like his deadbeat brother Neil Bush) is a life long loser and the country (Left & Right) is in a panic... his credentials for being president are as follows:

1. The sh!t head started an oil exploration company but could find no oil in Texas.

2. He then sold the stock using insider information the month before the company went belly up, the investors lost their asses.

3. He bought the Texas Rangers, using the taxpayers of Texas to finance the deal and then bailed out when the going got tough.

4. He joined the Texas National Guard on the day he applied for membership (bucking a line of 100,00 other draft dodger rats there were "in front of him.") because his daddy had clout.

He scored too low to be a pilot nevertheless he got a "slot" in preflight school (probably taking an opportunity from some kid that had dreamt of being a pilot all of his life). After he finished flight school (graduating at the bottom 1/3 of his class) he decided that flying was no biggie and asked to be excused so he could work on some politicians reelection committee (he lost!) and then refused to return to flight status (some say the cocaine in his system prevented him from taking a routine urine test).
He put more people to sleep as the governor of Texas than any other governor in 75 years.

Now he's our president, Whooppeee!

As president he has:

Placed the enemies of the environment at the head of most all areas of Forest Conservation, Water quality control, Nuclear plant inspection, Pollution control in the Coal, Auto emmissions, and Air Quality agences.

He's p!ssed away the $5 billion Clinton surplus
Pissed away billions out of Social Security fund.
Abrogated the Kyoto, ABM, ICC, treaties.
Violated the Nuclear nonproliferation Treaty. (Currently he's developing Bunker busting nukes).
Violated the Bacterialogical warfare treaty (Currently building new weaponized bio-weapons)
Invaded a hapless Arab country to satisfy his egotistical desires.
Has lost over 690 US soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan
Massacred over 20,00 civilians in Iraq & Afghanistan while hiding this fact.
Ordered the US media not to show dead soldiers arriving at Dover, AFB.
Hired five of the dirtiest pro-Israel ZioNazi's (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feth, Wurmser and Perle to help him lie to the American and provide the lies and twisted intelligence to justify his "going to war" with Iraq.

And to think that Bill Clinton was convicted of "only" offering Monica Lewinski a little "stoop" labor in the oval room! :D

After letting Ken Star blow $60 million trying to "get him" in the Whitewater scandal, he was found guilty of nothing, nada!

I believe that George W. Bush and Ariel Sharon should be hung by the testicals on some Iraq bridge after attending a barbaque where they are the main course! :eek:

Whirlwind....

thank you for that history lesson
i guess you missed the last line of my last post

thank you for that history lesson
i guess you missed the last line of my last post

They say my message is too short......

But what else can I say?

Whirlwind :D

the irony is that i was talking about you, amigo

All those hypocoristics it's bizarre how they judge things ... while everything is in front of their eyes,they want to prove somthing else ...

what was in spain , eventually ended successful for the muslims puppets .
and the puppets will try every dirty method to achieve what they need .
Divide and Rule , kidnaping ... and many more other methods .
until they succeed , they don't care how much people is going to die .
not from their side , and from the other .
when the main mission is to destroy USA , in any cost .

and forget about spain , don't try to prove something ...
because the puppets succeeded with spain.

now it's time to pressure the rest of europe , actually they can still bomb spain , and have good impact on the rest of europe throughout spain .

"Simply Appaling, the left should be restrained like the right was during the Clinton administration".

I AGREE WHOLE HEARTEDLY !



Impeach Bush (not for sex) but for premeditated murder of our troops under false pretenses.

it's that people of USA against bush and his policy , and its not about specific attack...

what really does matter its that the people of USA are divided, and this is the real goal .
to divide the people .

have you heard about this ancient policy "Divide and Rule" .

It's called the Opposition, and it's existed since the Constitution was being framed. There have always been divisions in the country, always been 'special interests' and that's why political parties developed in the first place, to represent those special interests. We fought a civil war and survived it, so I suspect we will survive differences of opinion. Of course, the alternative is we can all be in lockstep, but that sounds much less appealing to me at least.

Spyke , its all true , but not when it comes as a pressure from out of USA ...
making from USA bana republic with the method of "Divide and Rule" .

People today judge by emotion rather than reason , and today with the world fast media , they can divide any nation , anywhere ...

all peaceful people think that they right , when they are just useful fools .

NetSpider

Just tell me, are you a fascist? Because obviously the rules of democracy do not fancy you. You are surely sounding like a right wing megalomaniac fascist. So I am just wondering, do you endorse Fascism as a way to combat terrorism? You know no opposition, and no division of the population? In return we get repression, corruption, most likely racism, and prejudicial laws, and eventually letting the terrorists win by totally reshaping our society as a reaction to terrorism? If you endorse terrorisms ultimate victory through fascism do tell... if not then you don't have a leg to stand on. And stop the snipping at the system that allows you to even talk on a forum like this. Democracy is the only system that works, and if you don’t like the way it works. Then get fascist.

I'm not right or left winged , and far from a fascist .
i'm just someone that tired from this whole scam .

and democracy of "western civilization" , got this Exploit that they know about that can be used with the policy of Divide and Rule . Read More (http://alochona.org/magazine/2002/april/politics.htm)
i don't hate democracy , but it's got to be protected !

Protected from what? From itself? If the ppl of Spain voted X way, they have a right to vote that way. The race was at a statistical dead heat anyways; who knows the Anzar gov't could have lost. It's one of those questions that will never be answered. But democracy worked in Spain. The ppl voted out a gov't that didn't listen to them, do you endorse keeping in a gov't that spits in the face of the social contract and democracy itself? The democratic system worked as it was supposed to work. When 90%+ of Spain opposed the war in Iraq, and the gov’t went in anyways it is a shame democracy. The gov't more then deserved to be ousted out of power. Again if you don't like this, then fascism is the way to go.

what you trying to prove ?
that actually they will succeed .
because today people judge by emotion rather than logic .
and puppets know that this emotion can be used , they will terrorise , spread fear .
and people will elect the wrong choice .
while they think that's the right thing to do .

what you trying to prove ?

No I think the question lies in your corner? What are you trying to prove? That Democracy is a failure?

because today people judge by emotion rather than logic .


They always have, you don't think that a dictatorship feeds off emotions of the population? Fear, and anxiety have ruled politics from the very begining. It always has been emotion; logic plays VERY little in the affairs of state. Why did the US go to war? Emotional hatred, and fear of non-existant weapons. Logic, ha!

and puppets know that this emotion can be used , they will terrorise , spread fear .


The West isn't doing this either? The vote in Spain was a dead heat, so you can prove either or.

and people will elect the wrong choice .


So what is the right choice? You know better then the Spanish electorate? This is why I think you are a closet fascist, "those ppl don't know what's best for them" right? I suggest you think before you say things.

while they think that's the right thing to do .

They voted against a gov't who lied to them, and went to war against their will. That seems like a logical vote to me. By the looks of it the US will follow suit.

Undecided - You are the walking prove ...
The KGB's system is working fine .

When people get killed by "Terrorists" , we argue about right and wrong .

For all my leftist freedom fighters, lets not forget that our beatifull country was founded because we didnt want to pay taxes :D

NetSpider

Can you just answer this question? What form of gov't would you prefer? Democracy is incompatible with what you want. If you get angry at ppl, and call them stupid, etc. b/c they didn’t conform to your conformist ethos. They shouldn't have the power now should they? So what is the alternative sir?

its not about Democracy Undecided , its about the people , And The people of the nation should unite .
its the only way .

From the "Divide and Rule" And the Antidote article

The solution to all these communal problems and to tackle the legacy of the "divide and rule," lies in the creation of Bangladesh as a "strong state." A strong state has the ability to reshape its society towards goals of economic development, social justice, and national security can impose sacrifices on the most powerful social groups.

The ppl of Spain united against a gov't that did not listen to her. If that is not democracy in action, what is? If you don't like that, then you cannot have a democracy, democracy in its innate nature needs division. If you want "unity" then democracy is not the exactly the system you want, in a western society fascism is the other alternative. In Argentina, and Uruguay both are modern democratic societies but in the 60’s and 70’s with terrorism within their borders, they created “unity” and defeated terrorism, with Fascism. But an absolutely horrible human cost and one that no western democracy would want to repeat. The scars of that era still linger in that region, and if it happens here again it will be no different. All the Socialists in Spain are going to do is pull out of Iraq which caused more terrorism then it solved. It’s a logical and prudent measure, against an emotional and ideological invasion. Again what is the alternative? You are angry at the Spanish ppl, yet support the instrument that you are angry against?

"Divide and Rule"


You seem to be a bit of a simpleton. Undecided has been trying to ask it in post after post, but I'll try to put it in rhetoric form so it has a chance of sticking.

If the people are not divided, why do they need a democracy?

Is that good enough for you? If we are all "United" why not have the fascism that you seem to be advocating? Democracy does not work without division, democracy was created to arbitrate division and keep a system cohesive. Why vote when there is only one option on the ballot?

First i didn't said i'm angry at them .

"yet support the instrument that you are angry against? "

Its a different case here ... read answer from the article to get the point .

I can understand a shocked public acting on emotion rather than reason. But to channel that grief so immediately toward a political end, and have the Socialists almost immediately employ invective against the United States, promising to take the troops out by June and rethink relations with the United States. It is an al Qaeda fantasy come true.

Spain had a government that snubbed its people when it got involved in Americas questionable crusade against Iraq. With just that alone apparently the socialist party was in a dead heat with the incumbents. After the train bombings this same hawkish government immediately chose a target to blame and advocated action against them. Well guess what, it turned out it wasn’t the Basqs after all. The incumbent government participated in a war to destroy WMDs that didn't exist, and it pissed the people off, then they wanted to blame the Basqs for the bombings that they did not commit. I think the people saw the true danger of what a hawkish conservative government is capable of. The idea that this is a cut and dried case of "they let the terrorists win" is just so much more rhetoric for the uncritical.

It is an al Qaeda fantasy come true.

Actually the invasion of Iraq proper was Al Q's biggest wet dream ever. It only proves their point that the US is aggressive and against the Islamic ppl (rightly or wrongly). Al Q got a new big base, smack in the middle of the M.E. The ppl of Spain voted out of emotion, and logic. Emotionally because of the bombings yes, but logically because the fmr. Gov’t didn't give a shit about what he ppl thought. You do have a problem with democracy, and you just don't want to admit it. Democracy is based on political discourse, and emotions. Let's be real here, let's not pretend that the voting population thinks logically. Politicians themselves don't, so if you have a problem with the masses "emotional state" take that power away from them, or stop the snipping and live with it. Your stance isn't making much sense; you can't have your cake and eat it too. Again what do you want instead? It obviously cannot be democracy.

Undecided , i know that this thread is going to be a LOOP ...
tell you the truth , i'm tired from all those LOOP threads all ready...
its all point less .
what's going to happen is inevitable .

so Just sit back relax and "enjoy" the show ...

"its all point less . what's going to happen is inevitable . so Just sit back relax and "enjoy" the show ..."

Or: Get off your ass and make a difference while you can- Write your newspapers, call in on radio, write your representatives, participate in protest.

Netspider apparently would have been a happy cooperative citizen of the 3rd Reich, while it lasted.

Join the counterattack on Bush: You don't have to be an acquiescent fascist (or a leftist).

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/911w.jpg

guthrie:
"right", "proper" and "desirable" are subjective.

Precisely. Now, having admitted that, will you stop sounding so rabid as you do above. In fact you do, so its nice to see your seeing the complexities here.




let's take bin Laden for example
if he was taken out 3 weeks before 9-11, 9-11 would still've happened
and people would've claimed that al-Qaeda has retaliated to bin-Laden's killing
they would've punished the administration that would've taken him out

Not necessarily. I think given the behaviou of the USA over the past few years, that is not a given reaction. Sure, some would have complained about the provocation, but many others would have seen it didnt matter, really. It depends also on the media.




then, the LA airport goes boom, the public will be angry by now.
the opposing party (no matter who's in power) will create a media buzz, the conspiracy theorists will have record hits to their blogs

then, a dirty bomb is released in Las Vegas
by now the public will demand the end to the 'war on terrorism'

a quick magical solution will be sought, and many stupid short-run feel-good decisions will be made to appease the sheep

Sounds like Iraq, doesnt it? And I dont see the american "people" rising up against the war in Iraq.

As for the Churchill quote, you can find examples of him saying just about anything, including justifying gassing middle easterners. And yet he still played the game and got elected twice. Odd that.

Thank God you lefties were not alive in the 1770's, we'd still be british.

You drunk, crazy151drinker?

Its 5:00pm somewhere in the world.....

Thank God you lefties were not alive in the 1770's, we'd still be british.
Actually, we were around, and thats why we're not British anymore.
The founding fathers would be conservative by today's standards(although having intentionally made it difficult to change the constitution, I think they'd probably have some problems with the way its presently being ignored), but for their time they were in many ways radical leftists.

Mindless obedience to existing government isnt really a trate that affects your right left scale

So old school lefties were radical revolutionaries and the modern lefties are pansies. How sad.

If your that pissed of stop protesting and start something. Wasnt it Jefferson who said that every country needs a revolution from time to time??? I'll try to find the quote...

"A single good government becomes... a blessing to the whole earth, its welcome to the oppressed restraining within certain limits the measure of their oppressions. But should even this be counteracted by violence on the right of expatriation, the other branch of our example then presents itself for imitation: to rise on their rulers and do as we have done." --Thomas Jefferson to George Flower, 1817. ME 15:141

"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." --Thomas Jefferson: his motto.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Gee Crazy, maybe I should challenge you to a dule at dawn instead of typing anything to tell you what a nut you are?

"Gee Crazy, maybe I should challenge you to a dule at dawn instead of typing anything to tell you what a nut you are?"

*LOL* Thanks Spy :) Thats just what Jefferson said. Im not about to start a revolution, I happen to like how things are. Im just offering a suggestion for you lefties ;) Though I dont know how long your revolution would last if all you can do is throw things at starbucks.

About the dueling, maybe we could just have Bush and Kerry duel it out? It would save alot of time and money. Many here believe that they are both puppets anyways so why not??

Crazy
maybe your pissed but thats no excuse. Stop acting like a tit.
You think it's easy being liberal?
How much shit do you get when your walking down the street?
Not a lot, I guess, a brave young soldier like yourself.
Put on your "GW Sucks and Blows" T-shirt (I know you've got one) and take that walk again.
Home safe?
See what I mean?
I'd rather dance Naked through Nejaff than walk the backstreets of deliverance country. You've seen easy rider you know what can happen.

It takes balls to be left wing and I'll fuck up anyone who disagrees.
Dee Cee

I have a Chairman Mao- "My Votes for Kerry" shirt :)

Maybe i'll wear that in San Fransico and see how long I can survive *LOL*
Hey, I live in California, you lefties are everywhere :)

I have a Chairman Mao- "My Votes for Kerry" shirt
My, I bet you get admiring glances when your down on the range. :)


Maybe i'll wear that in San Fransico and see how long I can survive
I don't think the residents of 'Frisco could offer you much of an attack posture.
But then again....


you lefties are everywhere
Thats because liberalism is perfectly natural.

Dee Cee

Good points :)

Whirlwind,

"George W. Bush (like his deadbeat brother Neil Bush) is a life long loser"? One of them is the Florida State Governor and the other is the President of the United States. Can you at least listen to yourself?

Are you also imply that Bill Clinton was a winner by "offering Monica Lewinski a little 'stoop' labor in the oval room!"?

it should be renamed to the oral room

i bet when Bush takes a dump in the washroom there he's thinking to himself "this is where Bill did not have those relations what that woman"

That would suggest that Bush has an unhealthy interest in someone elses sex life, which surely is below him, him being religious and all.

If I was president I would be banging my wife all over the whitehouse *LOL*

i'd tape and leak it like the Pamela tapes

if Osama saw the size of my dick he'd get scared