If you were to teleport somthing you would have to break down the object atom by atom and then send each atom to some reciver, which then would be put back together atom by atom...right...well how would yo send the atoms if this is true? JimmyJames....email- JimmyJames21988@hotmail.com

One possibility is that you wouldn’t “send atoms”. Rather you would send instructions on how to assemble atoms at a distant point. To send atoms would require that you transmit mass. That’s when you start to run into problems. Moving mass requires energy. The faster it moves the more energy is needed. So how long do you want to be a mass of electrons moving towards your intended destination? A couple of years OK? While you’re in transit the rest of the world goes on. Maybe your father or mother died while you were traveling. Somehow I don’t think that would be acceptable.

<valign="center" valign="middle">

now if we can answer how to send the atoms as fast as we want then why break them apart at all why not just send whole items or people ?
and if all you are sending is information about how to assemble other atoms at the "destination" doesnt that break some law about cloning ?


boy whats my problem im answering questions with questions [banging face on keyboard for bad behavior in public]

um...I think that if you teleport only the instructions then where does the consious mind come in? It wouldn't. So I think that t he method of only teleporting instructions would be reserved for non-living objects...and yes if the consious mind is not teleported then a exact repleca would be made...which in turn would be cloning not teleporting, plus what would happen to the original person or living bening???

they would wonder what their clone was doing and if it would mess up their credit rating =>

That's what I get for spouting off. You know mouth engaged at warp speed and brain in cyrosleep
Unfortunately Jimmy has put his finger on the crux of the problem. How do you transmit conscious?
The Star Gate show has 'em walking into a new place. Cool effects but I don't think it's a valid reality. ('Course I'm not a scientist)
But nothing we have so far shows that it's even possible to transmit such. Now you can always find the pseudo science on the web that says it's so and others that believe everything they read as it's in print.But show me!

Beam Me Up Scotty!


Continuing with that Star Trek theme, Scientists have succeeded in 'teleporting' photons. In the December 11 1997 issue of Nature, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues
at the University of Innsbruck, Austria, demonstrated their ability to destroy and recreate bits of light. Utilizing Quantum Teleportation, and idea that even Einstein
thought was impossible, destroyed massless photons, and in the process transferring information about a physical characteristic of the photons. Other photons picked
up this information and took on the characteristic, thus becoming replicas of the original bits of light.

There are obviously significant differences between the Star Trek transporter and the technology demonstrated by the Austrian physicists. The demonstration
described only dealt with massless photons. It may be quite a while before we can avoid all that traffic on the way to work by 'beaming.' Herr Zeilinger says that
teleportation of individual atoms and molecules is only a few years off. However, "teleportation of complex living beings, even bacteria, is so far away technologically
that it's not really worth thinking about it," said IBM physicist Charles Bennett, one of the original proposers of the technology.

Sources:

ABC News.com
Nature
Associated Press

i think we have begun another thread with this ...
if all the chemicals and connections of the brain are put into the same place in the "new" body , who is to say whether or not that would be enough to create/move the conciousness

and i think my trouble is getting my mouth to correctly translate the gibberish my brain hands it

The Tronexus: "Lumen" Booms and Quantum Entanglement

http://www.dark-planet.com/ortemus/TIHTC.htm

my website:

http://www.dark-planet.com/ortemus/

matt

I agree on the fact that consciousness cannot be trasmitted with the bodies code, and transfering information about the body to a distant receiver/assembler would possibly re-creat something other than human.......
However we might be looking in the wrong direction. If any of you as read any material on wormholes and such, than you might come across the notion that we could possibly send ourselves by opening a wormhole and jumping to a different point in the universe - weather it be on earth or on jupiter. There have been previously published articles regarding teleportation using wormholes(some 2000 popular science magazine and Scientific American) That talk about using negative energy to stimulate a wormhole. If we could accurately control where the wormhole sends us, then that would be a very affective way of teleportation.
for those who are unfamiliar: wormholes are theoretical openings in space that connect one point of the universe to another in a "short jump"

Well in order to go into a wormhole or blackhole you would first go through a stage of spagatifacation....you would get stretched out because of the speed of gravity pulling you in. The parts that go in first will get to the other end first which would ripp your body apart. Do you get it ?

Scientist know how to teleport in theory:
one of the simple rules of physics is

Energy=m(mass)*(the speed of light)
therefor, any mass can be transformed into energy, sent at the speed of light to somewhere else. but the problem is to reconstruct the mass at its arrival... :)

It seems obvious to me, at least, that any 'teleporation' would be nothing more than a transfer of information. We can currently, with our primitive tools, transfer information at the speed of light (eg. fiber optics). Using light as the medium for information transfer, you avoid the problems associated with moving mass itself.

There MAY be ways to transfer information faster than the speed of light (quantum entanglement possibly -- but I really know nothing about this).

I personally don't think that "consciousness" has anything to do with the actual corporeal mass that comprises my brain. I think it has more to do with the patterns of neural connections which can be represented symbolically quite compactly. There's no reason to suspect that MY consciousness is tied to my physical self. The actual physical matter in my brain (atoms, molecules, cells etc.) is transient and constantly changing -- yet I perceive a unified consciousness over time. The patterns that are symbolically encoded by the physical 'stuff' are constant and this is what gives you the subjective feeling of a unified consciousness over time.

Of course, this is a good topic for discussion in the Neuroscience/AI forums.

Okay...If you send instructions that perfectly identify were the position of each atom, molecule, cell, etc.. you would create an exact copy or replica (also known as a clone) of the object or being that is attempting to be teleported. So if you agree so far then you would know that the new being would have every thing that the original being had except that they are two different people, so in the process of teleportation you will destroy one life to make a new one in a different location. What about God...your soul your deepest feeling...the new being would have these and more...memories, beliefs, etc.. The only problem is that he is NOT the original person and he will NEVER be the original person...I hope you understand what I am trying to say, please respond

I am not the original person. I possess the memories of the person that existed 5 minutes ago in "my" body, but I swear to you, I am not him!

in a way , Porfiry, you're right, but the technique is wrong all together. leave an individual and replace it with an other is wrong for the poor fellow who was down there( however, you are nothing but atoms anyway, and every single atom in your body is renewed during your lifetime...).
that technique shouldn't be used to transfer animal life.

there is an other way, the one I described in my earlier message...

I skipped the last posts on this thread just to ask something.
It may seem kind of dumb saying this, in fact i'm dumb, at least in this area, but teleporting envolve transfering the body of a person to another place.
Well, if we transfer the body, we transfer the consious too? right?

Sorry for the bad english.

PS - don't laugh. :D

I wouldn't take that one for granted. You could arrive dead meat.
You're not dumb, like the rest of us, you're seeking knowledge. Not the same things.

Well, i'm assuming that we reach the other side with our phisical side equal.
If our phisical caracteristics are the same at our destination point, doesn't that mean that our consious it's the same?

Hi,
I am a bit shocked about the number of (Cartesian) dualsits among us. What is the stuff our dreams are made of, do you think?
If it were possible to make an exact copy of a sentient being... hmm... however... those beings will have the same consciousness only for like a few microseconds (educated guess). After that period of time they will start to deviate, not only because of the differences in sensory inputs.
The problem remains that we will never be able to make such a copy, since we cannot know both the momentum and the position of a particle (Heisenberg's principle). Without that information it will be quite a hard job to duplicate. :)

Merlijn, (welcome, btw!)


If it were possible to make an exact copy of a sentient being... hmm... however... those beings will have the same consciousness only for like a few microseconds (educated guess).

Well, this seems to be an equivalent question to whether or not one's consciousness is unified through time. My experiences of the last 5 seconds (not to mention the juices flowing in and out of my brain) make the 5-second-ago me entirely different from the one typing these words (because I wrote this whole message in one atomic splurge :)).

If it were possible to save the 5-second-ago me and compare him to my current self, we would undoubtedly react differently to identical stimuli. But for some reason, we are defined as a single unit.

But anyways, teleportation (for some reason my spell-checker is telling me 'teleporation'!?) would probably involve killing the original, for sake of the lawyers who would need to sort things out in the end (insert lawyer joke here).


The problem remains that we will never be able to make such a copy, since we cannot know both the momentum and the position of a particle (Heisenberg's principle). Without that information it will be quite a hard job to duplicate.

Well, this may be true. But, I'm not convinced that the self is at all defined by quantum effects, or even effects at the level of the particle. It seems that the human brain is functioning at a level of abstraction above these -- at the level of cellular biology (case in point - the human brain runs at a very slow speed (absolute max ~ 500 Hz, but in reality closer to ~ 50) which is indicative of the slowdown one finds with an abstraction layer)).

More simply put, cells (and neurons) have implicit error buffering, just in the nature of their construction. Chemical concentrations are error buffered (you generally need an order of magnitude difference in concentration for an event to be triggered), so I think that uncertainty at the particle level isn't ever going to be noticed.

Hi
thanks for the remarks

..., cells (and neurons) have implicit error buffering, just in the nature of their construction. Chemical concentrations are error buffered (you generally need an order of magnitude difference in concentration for an event to be triggered), so I think that uncertainty at the particle level isn't ever going to be noticed.
You are right. Still, do not underestimate the elegancy and intricacies of the neural system.


If it were possible to save the 5-second-ago me and compare him to my current self, we would undoubtedly react differently to identical stimuli. But for some reason, we are defined as a single unit.
I agree completely. Luckily, there is continuety. BUT if a copy was made from you, the second you and the first you will drift apart.
The fact that we experience and learn accounts for both the (percieved?) constancy of our personality as well for the drifting apart of two copies of the same person.

Merlijn

by the way:
1. I am sorry, I meant millisecons, not microseconds.
2. Actually the remark on Heisenberg was not intended to apply on living tissues per se, it was a general remark: you cannot make an exact copy of anything. I admit that was not clear in my original message.

Oringally Posted by JimmyJames

_________<i>
um...I think that if you teleport only the instructions then where does the consious mind come in? It wouldn't. So I think that t he method of only teleporting instructions would be reserved for non-living objects...and yes if the consious mind is not teleported then a exact repleca would be made...which in turn would be cloning not teleporting, plus what would happen to the original person or living bening???</i>
__________


When you walk across the room does your mind stay where you were standing or sitting before? When you get into your car and drive down to the store or too your parents house several cities away does your mind stay at home? When you get into a plane and travel to Viji does you mind stay at your departure location? NO, I really can't forsee this being a problem in teleportation. Well, for some it may be, heh.


_
"Common sense is more uncommon than it is common."

Have you ever thought about how much information will be generated during the scanning stage on a simple object?

Ever read those <i>Hyperion</i> series? In them, (Dan) Simmons eventually postulated that when humans are transferred via a teleportation device, the computer system (or those running it) have the option to either store information in the humans passing through, or to make a blueprint of them as they pass through.

Then there was that short story by Stephen King where he wrote that perhaps the transfer process, while not killing us, would take seconds in our time to accomplish, but the teleportee would experience billions upon billions of years of limbo until he emerged out of the other pod--completely insane.

Just some thoughts to throw around ...

thanks!

prag

Phase entanglement (quantum entanglement) would probably be a good way to instantaneously transport something (as said before, it is like sending information actually). The only problem is to entangle the phases of particles that are located possibly light years apart. You would have to cause them to interact, but you would have to transport them, taking away the whole purpose of the transport system. There has to be some way how to use phase entanglement.

Space-time manipulation enabling non-linear travel would be the best way to transport an object/organism (wormholes are such an example, but there are easier ways than creating wormholes). When the object/organism uses the transport system it is still the "same" object as before. Therefore one could still use the machine with no fear of "cloning".

I just saw an episode of "The Outer Limits" that dealt with this very issue. They would transport a person to a location so far away they couldnt travel there in their lifetime. Once they received confirmation that the person arrived safely on the other side they had to destroy the person still remaining in the transport chamber on their end. Well, needless to say, an accident happened where the transportee didnt arrive on the other end (or so they thought). After a couple days, they received word that the other person had arrived and there was some sort of error in the system. So they now had to destroy the original person still at the transport station. This would cause many problems. I dont believe that this will be an acceptable solution (at least not anytime soon) because you are not really transporting. You are just creating a clone of yourself that takes over your life as yours ends. Although it does have your same memories and is in essence an exact replicant of the original, it simply is not the original and that is what disturbs me.

I do think that transportation will be a necessary technology in the future, just not in this way. I need to know that it is me, the original, appearing on the other end and not a replicant.

It will not be enough to tranmit the information of the position of each atom/particle; it is also necessary to relay the motion (direction/speed) of that particle. According to Heisenberg, it is not possible to determine both simultaneously. "Beaming" people around is just a storytelling artifice, necessary to keep the story moving fast enough for the TV audience, no more realistic than hearing explosions and "whoosh" sounds in space.

Suggest that you read the thread in life as an upload. It covers some of this very stuff.

A few years ago, well about 15 years ago, I was in a Head Shop in Tulsa Oklahoma. And there was this tee shirt that had a picture of Spock (the vulcan) drooping over a Bar Stool & speaking into his communicator. Said Spock: "JIM BEAM ME UP!!!!!!!

<font size="4"><font color="brown">Yeah there ain't much worse than a drunk Vulcan plastered on Jim Beam........................</font color><i><font color="royalblue">

But getting back to teleportation./...............I saw that!!!!</font size></i>

Of the many things that Gene Roddenbury and others have written about, I have to say that I find the greatest difficulty with teleportation!

To de-materialize, as presented on the outer limits & other sci-fi writings and then to re-materialize is something that opens up a variety of possible scenarios for me.

In the Outer limits, why is it necessary to destroy the original when the copy could be made on another planet in another galaxy without the original be disturbed at all????

If this is possible, then wouldn't it make more sense to look at "the copy" as being a sort of a personal Deep Space Probe for each distinguished scientist of Earth? When the "copy" completed it's task on another world, perhaps it's information could be relayed to the original, at which time it would be "BALANCED"!!!!!

Startrek by Gene is pretty cool. But in this area I think that it would be easier & safer for Capt. Kirk to "fax' himself down to deal with the hostiles, rather than leaving his post on the Enterprise. If the FAX gets knocked off, then there are always the copies.........


To teleport to another world, I must say that I am much more aligned with the "Stargate/sliders" idea. To walk between space/time dimensions actually seems much more acheivable and practical than the total de-construction & then re-construction of a traveler or trekkie..................


o'hell.......opinions vary........JIM BEAM ME UP!!!!!!:)

forget about those tv series!!! We are trying to think about teleportation seriously..... Stop using Startrek, Stargate and The Outer Limits as material !!!! use your brains! :mad:

In 1999 in Geneva a single photon was succesfully 'teleported' 12km. The team used a newly installed comercial optical fibre cable (the sort used fer cable telly) I know 1 photon is hardly the same as an organic entity, but its a start ! The experiment was more to do with quantum computers than teleportation, but it was realised that 1 photon with its polarity reversed (dont ask , I dont know :) ) would arrive at its destination AT THE SAME TIME as it was sent. This is clearly impossible, however it happened and the experiment has been checked thoroughly.
If anybody can actually fully understand what they are on about (buggered if i can :) ) then you can find reams of info at the BBC web site under Radio4s 'Weird science' section, theres loads of links to other interesting stuff as well, it worth checking out.
If anybody does bother to look deeply into this and then understands the very very technical bits, then id be gratefull if you could explain it to me in laymens terms. Cheers!

OKOKOKOKOKO........

EVEN ONE PHOTON: how do you precisely transmit (transport electronically) this one Photon from one point to another?

What is teleportation? What are the rules? Are we talking about literally converting say <u>the one photon (electron)</u>..... into a transmittable stream that is exactly re-materialized at a destination point? Or are we talking about scanning the original and then producing a facsimile at a destination point?

I'm a hard-headed bastard, for which I make no appologies. And I have long considered the possibilities of travel in ways of collapsing space/time, as a means of traveling many kilometers without a space ship.

It seems to me that all the teleportation people out there ought to be learning how to crawl (working on the simpler ideas of Matter Replication) before they decide to run - with the idea of teleportation. In other words, try to figure out how to produce a tomato by the scanning and thus the gas/carbon production necessary to produce a simple vegetable, before you decide to transport it to a far away land!

How about a ketcup factory for the "didn't make its"?

I WAS JOKING AROUND WITH A BUNCH OF PEOPLE OVER IN ...???? ANOTHER FORUM....... some six months or so back during a discussion of time travel...wormholes, ect....I think???...anyhow, I made an off the cuff (Vodka-ism remark) about collasping spacetime down and mentioned that before any of the Wormhole proponents decided to send a man or ship through a wormhole across the Galactic Void, that they ought to first try to make a wormhole which would span on a couple of nanometers in a laboratory, rather than across a galaxy, or even a kilometer, for that matter.

That to first learn how to make two different s/t points to quasi-occupy the same point, even if the two points are separated only by a distance no thicker than a sheet of notebook paper!

Certainly the energy necessary to form a wormhole that spans only the thickness (or even much less) of a sheet of notebook paper will require much less energy to form than by attempting to span large, galactic distances! The idea being that if it becomes possible to form such a short distance wormhole, that the process of continuing to form more such short distance wormholes ought to be possible. That if <B>"A machine (or ship)"</b> could repeatably form wormholes just ahead of it's intended direction, (a few nanometers at a time) that the travel ability in regards to superlight velocities might actually have a possibility of working.

Such a "wild-assed" idea may not seem to have a lot to do with transporting a living organism or inanimate object from point A to point B unless the ability to form slightly larger (longer) wormholes becomes realized. However, if such a thing does become possible, then it seems to me that opening a portal from one point in space time to a destination point would make it a very viable way of transporting animate and inanimate cargo to virtually anywhere on the Earth instantaneously!

<I><b>Which would be easier to accomplish.........teleportation or wormhole portals? </I></B>

The advancements to human technological capabilities would require us to completely re-examine all of our past beliefs and pretty much look back on all past human technological accomplishments as being much in the same way as we now look at human technology of say, the Bronze Age, whether teleportation or wormhole portals were to be developed.

<B>TELEPORTATION.</B> Certainly it seems that if teleportation becomes possible, then the teleportation of inanimate (non-living) matter will be first in the order. If it were then possible to transport large amounts of matter, then the entire business of freight moving, (I.E. trucking companies, railroad, ocean going vessels, and eventually even trips to the grocery store) would become obselete. Beyond that, it becomes even more likely that the transmutation of matter itself will make it likely that all manufacturers of appliances, tools, food, .........will also become obselete.

If a device is produced which can store the exact data on virtually anything, living or not, then it seems that one has only to have a desire, and a machine which can take simple basic elements and form just about anything that one desires! I say this because such a possibility must exist if one believes in the idea of de-materializing & then re-materialing matter at a destination point.

Such a thing may very well become possible. In fact it becomes even more likely if upcoming future scientists continue to believe in such a Science fiction fantasy that it was originally. This is why I threw in the Startrek/Stargate comments. If it can be dreamed up and believed in enough, then it is a pretty good bet that someone will eventually find a way to make it happen. In other words, I have no doubt that a teleportation device can be built, and I actually see no real reason as to why such a device could not be built. I do believe however, that a first step to teleportation would require the ability to construct an object out of the base elements ......carbons & gases, in a laboratory experiment. Computing power will have to be........hellishly great in comparison to what we have these days. Equipment will have to be able to scan say, a <i>*tomatoe </i>inside and out. Such a scanning device would make all present day CAT scanners, ect..... which are used in the medical areas look as primitive as as an old Kodak Box Camera. And yes, if such a machine were to be built, then an incredible new form of medical science would also develop as a result.

<b>I have actually spent some time considerig the possibility in past years. </b> One of my first realizations that led me to to form opinions regarding the future of teleportation came from my extreme desire to understand the formation of living matter.

<i>I'm not intentionally going to try to offend all of the anti-maijuana zealots, nor am I going to put forth a Pro-marijuana public opinion, but that I did come to visualize, within my mind's eye, a much improved way of seeing carbon/gas combinations, one night many years ago........</i>

About 15 to.......O' about 90 years ago (joking), I was sitting around a campfire with a bunch of my friends at a keg party/smoke party. Unprincipled teenage years! As the party was about over with and most everyone had left, I was siting on a stump staring at the embers of the fading campfire. (Like TAZ, I never know when to quit!!!) However, as I was staring blankly at the burning coals of the wood in the fire, I noticed that ash in the burned wood often pulsed with an extra amount of gas from within the burning logs that seemed to <b>re-infuse the burned outer carbon of the logs & briefly re-form wood itself ......all over again!</b> Although I had learned about gases & carbons in the classroom, as a teenager, I didn't quite put the idea together until I finally noticed such a thing, especially since I was under the primary influence of marijuana.

It seemed to me to be an incredibly awesome thing that the inner gases of a burning log would be boiled off towards the outer surface & then to momentarily re-infuse into the already carbonized Oak log(s), before being ignited in a chain reaction of simple combustion ! ! !

Certainly it has occured to me that I may have been halucinating, since I was smoking marijuana at the time. However, since that time, I have watched many a campfire & continue to see the same effect. It is not a hallucination on my part. If you haven't noticed such a thing, then simply imagine a simple wood log burned down about half way through, then to realize that truly it is the gases that are burning, with the carbon left behind. Occasionally the unburned gases from deep within the log will be boiled out and just prior to combustion, they will briefly re-combine with the carbon (ash) on the outer edges of the log.

What I noticed was that the carbonized parts of the log seem to become "magically" wood, all over again!!!! And in a way, this does happen. For it is a fact that most of the very basic properties of the inner parts of the log are boiled outwards and do (in FACT) briefly combine with the carbonized outer regions of the already burned parts of the log of wood!

<b>This was a fantastic realization to me at the time</b>. For I realized that if the callus, undefined burning of a log of wood could still cause the base carbon matrix of the carbonized portion of the log to re-form (if only briefly), with the wood itself, then what might realistically be possible if a laboratory experiment were to attempt to take a carbon matrix of ....basically..wood, or even a higher living organism & reinfuse the gases back into it!

<i>Howard-fucious says<b> Don't try to build a Corvette until you have built an ox-cart first"!!</i></b>

.................................................. .................................intermission..... .................................

.......................<font color="royalblue">I feel like..(believe) that a first step would be to build a device which can precisely form mutiple three dimensional layers of carbon patterns (maxtrixes), which would be held in a field of some type?????.......Since carbon does seem to be somewhat controllable by electrical fields, then I think that this would be a pretty good place to start. Once it becomes possible to form a carbon matrix(pattern) as it would of course be scanned from a patterned-, say-, living organism, then I believe that it would be possible to then infuse the delicate gaseous combinations into the carbon matrix of the proposed living organism. In other words, one can kinda look at the carbon matrix of a human being....as being like yet another (3rd) skeleton of say, a human being!!!! The constitution of the many hrdro-carbons into the carbon skeleton of say, a human being then becomes obvious!((((No-brainer) a child could do it!!)))...</font color>

<b>WHERE WAS i???</B>...........INTERMISSION......BRAIN OVERLOAD.........

////////////////.......................??????????????????......... ...<B. SO WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE WAITING ON?......... A FORMAL INVITATION!!!!!

<I>.....FIRST WE LEARN TO BUILD PEOPLE, THEN WE LEARN HOW TO TELEPORT THEM______-----.........</I>

No problem!..........Here's how you do it:

.......or maybe a couple of theories toward the goal.........


a) Build a machine that can hold the entire three dimensional CARBON pattern of say, a *Tomatoe, in a chamber which would be held together somewhat precisely by a very delicately balanced electrical field. The carbon of this proposed *tomatoe would match the carbon matrix of the average tomatoe from farmer Bob's garden, (more or less), and

b) infuse hopefully, the very types of methane gases into the above carbon matrix. though I realize that this may seem a bit haphazard, it would obviously be a first step to take. otherwise, I would think that the gaseous matrix might also be required to be held in a similiar field to be combined into the carbon matrix.

That's it!!!!!! CERTAINLY IT WON'T BE THAT EASY! But if it becomes possible to SCAN everything within a tomato, and then to take the scanned data on the tomato to build a Clone, then it seems that a resonable fascimile might soon be produced.

Even if a perfect tomato clone cannot be reproduced from the "originally scanned tomato", then I would guess that a possibly safe form of edible substance may be produced! In other words, it may look like a tomato & taste like Chicken, but what the hell!!!!!!!!1 If anyone of you young upcoming brains out there can engineer a machine which can make tomatoes that "taste just like chicken", then you will be assured of having your name in the sci-history books forever. For if you can do such a thing as provide food to a starving world in less time that it takes to microwave a convienience store burrito, then you will have truthfully taken the power of evolution out of the hands of Mother Nature...............



......questions........comments.......insults?????

......more to come??????.......... maybe!











<b>*<i>TOMATOE...courtesy of Dan Quayle</I></b> ...all rights reserved! (denotes a conservative republican who thinks that the media has crucified a man because of a simple spelling faupaux over the obviously media slant to protect a drug pushing, bunch of criminals in a past administation that the author will not name here.)

Hi Howard,

I do have a small remark on the "injection of methane into carbon" to turn it back into wood (which is the intention, I think, or the idea behind).

When you burn organic material (such as wood), you're basically breaking the carbon-hydrogen bounds in the object (organic materials usually are composed of long chains of CxHy molecules). Burning something involves oxygen, and I am pretty sure that what happens is that the hydrogen gets removed from the organic material (combing to form water H20), some carbon gets lost aswel (in the form of the gas C0, carbonmonoxide), and most of the carbon remains (which is the black material that remains after burning something, plain and simple graphite).

So to actually insert gasses back into carbon (which would be quite difficult, considering the fact that the spacing between carbon atoms is something like 2-3 * 10^(-10) meter, and methane molecules are larger than that)... so to insert gasses back would not revert the proces I think.

Anyway, keep up the thinking work... It's only by thinking something over and over again that you can ultimately come to comprehend it ;).

Bye!

Crisp

I'm a traditional science lover. Once again mathematics prevents us from sending anything larger than a hydrogen atom to another place via teleportation. Theres a big problem: atoms move, and oscillate. To get them you'd have to know where every atom, or molecule is located at a specific point in time, a nanosecond or less where they aren't moving. You can't predict where atoms will be a nanosecond from now because they can move to one of any infinite points in space, in a space of time ultra minute. Be carefull, science fiction can give us false hopes.
Don't get me wrong teleportation would be tight, never being late for work or a date would be great.
Then again I don't want to show up at the Ritz with my lady and having my hand sticking out of my ass, accidents will happen.

Yep! I completely agree that forming complex chains of living matter involves a lot more than I briefly touched on.

The point that I was attempting to make (at least at the beginning) was how difficult it would be to just try to put a teleported object (living or non-living) back together. Of course I love to speculate & get in over my head on a regular basis, if for no other reason but to get responses from knowledgeble people .....such as yourself, for instance.

Also, I thought that I had previously mentioned to teleportation fans that athough I believe that teleportation may very well be possible, I was of the opinion that many of them ought to realize that a great deal more needs to be understood about the science of matter replication.

<b>Anyhow, I realize the importance of the previous subject in regards to the first tests which have been alleged to teleport an electron. </b>Very likely, the people who are working in the field teleportation with simple particles will develop their ideas alongside with the matter replication crowd, including bio-chemists, geneticists, ect... I expect that at some time in the future, the teleportation crowd will be in serious need of the research being done by the replication researchers.

In my opinion, Matter Replication is such an unexplored territory, that I believe quite a lot of upcoming scientists ought to consider working in that direction. Consider the possiblities.....

- The ability to precisely form hydrocarbons as fuel sources.

- The ability to take base (waste) elements and make food which could be as real as anything produced the old fashioned way and feed the starving people of the world. To even make such food safer (without the natural carcinogens).

- The ability to build machines & tools far more efficiently than present production techniques, as well as the ability to build tools and machines which are design capable, yet impossible to build using present day technology!

- The abilty to heal the sick, as such research in matter replication can only serve to increase man's understanding of hiimself and thus would obviously increase his understanding of providing real cures to the varieties of ailments which afflict hummanity.

As far as my saying that matter replication is simple....1...2....3... voila, I like to fire up peoples imagination. Who knows, maybe someone who is now having a mental block may read some of the discussions at Exo science and solve a problem simply because of these discussions, though probably not because of the lack of technical information which is hardly ever offered here!

As far as gases being forced back into the wood in a campfire, what I have noticed was something that was a very brief occurence (1/8 to 1/4 of a second at a time). I am not saying that that the ash completely became wood again, but that the unburned parts of the wood at the center of a burning log were "boiled off" and naturally boiled off (evaporated) toward the surface of the already burning log. That these soon to be burned gases were taken up by the carbon on the outer surface of the burning log. As you well know, carbon is an excellent filter for various gases & such gases would readily combine with the outer carbon lattice structure of the same log, since the gases, ect.. in the inner part of the log would be <b>compatible</b> and would tend to be boiled off in order (progression) with the relatively undisturbed carbonized structure of the outer parts of the burned log.

What I am trying to say is that the relatively undisturbed carbonized outer edges of a burning log will readily accept the chemicals, gases....... which are being brought to the surface of the log, and which are of course going to be burned almost immediately. As these chemicals "well up", THEY WILL HAVE TO PASS THROUGH THE OUTER CARBONIZED PORTIONS OF THE LOG, and as they do, they will briefly recombine to nearly form the wood all over again. Granted, I have not seen the gases held in place and they do burn almost immediately.

The process of combustion has always been seen by me as virtuallly the same thing as acidic oxidation. A way that I like to think about it is that the infrared radiation resonates the matter in a 'combustable" and allows the erosive oxygen catalyst to break the molecular bonds of the matter in question and thus release the stored up energy in the same form of infrared radiation.

In the campfire, the infrared electromagnetic resonation which is being produced by combustion (same as), has the effect of making the base matter of the stored energy in the wood to resonate so as to make it unstable and thus release the energy of the log in the infrared band primarily (most noticeably). Obviously ((gamma radiation)as an example), other electromagnetic bands will not have the same effect as the infrared band. I have been attempting to visualize "fire" not necessarily as a destructive thing, but as yet another way of altering states of matter and energy.

GOD I LOVE SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!

That a plant (tree) takes in solar energy and combines it with the Earth elements, seems like nature's way of efficiently making a hell of a solar battery!!! In the idea of matter replication, I expect that a variety of useful things could be developed even more efficiently than to rely on a living "tree" to take years to grow and finally produce a source of energy of building product. In matter replication, hopefully much more useful things could be made in a fraction of the time (seconds,minutes,....as opposed to years).

To my main interest, though certainly not the only one is that </b>, there are Carbons and there are Gases. And there are the frequency resonations which break apart.....and quite possibly build matter. My point of view in regards to teleportation and the materialization of teleported matter is the great need of the in depth understanding of controlling matter construction by the utilization of the entire electromagnetic spectrum, which is responsible for the formation of matter itself.




I appreciate any responses & thanks for keeping Howard on track, in regards to the possibilities and facts.:)



<i>ps. I yeah, in response to the following by Crisp:</i>

"Quote from Crisp:"<b>When you burn organic material (such as wood), you're basically breaking the carbon-hydrogen bounds in the object (organic materials usually are composed of long chains of CxHy molecules). Burning something involves oxygen, and I am pretty sure that what happens is that the hydrogen gets removed from the organic material (combing to form water H20), some carbon gets lost aswel (in the form of the gas C0, carbonmonoxide), and most of the carbon remains (which is the black material that remains after burning something, plain and simple graphite)." </b>

<i>Howards reply:</i> Actually I think what you mean to say is that during the combustion process (oxidation), Oxygen is combined with Hydrogen to form Carbon Monoxide, not Water. The carbon left behind (ash) is a residual minus the unburned gases (smoke, soot)........

Futher quote from Crisp:<b>"So to actually insert gasses back into carbon (which would be quite difficult, considering the fact that the spacing between carbon atoms is something like 2-3 * 10^(-10) meter, and methane molecules are larger than that)... so to insert gasses back would not revert the proces I think." </b>

<i>Howard reply:</i> To me, if the energy of the combustion process is capable of breaking all these molecular bonds, then at the moment of the break up, the molecular bonds ought to temporarily reverseable, if even for a few thousandths of a second.

fairly ez but needs to be figured out . ok imagine the signal on your tv (if using an antena) is sent from the studio satalite broken up and sent across along range in a very short amount of time. and arrives at your tv. I would imagine transporting objects would use a simular thing. but a problem would be will it come out whole? or like your tv has fuzz . not be fully completed meaning are sent and broken down into billions of pieces and some may not arrive at its reciever. but besides that being in billions of pieces is justa secit would feel like a sneeze does. because a sneeze stops all body funtions for a sec

Hell, it's so easy I've been bopping around the galaxy for seven hundred and fifty four years now (subjective time, I'm only nine Earth time) and most of the time came out whole. The few times I didn't I was lucky enough to be able to do a quick reverse and pick up the parts that didn't make it.

One thing though, it's not like a sneeze: It's more like a humungous fart with all your atoms going through you know what. But the best part is that you feel really clear headed afterward for a while.

transporting??? thats a trickey 1.
first of all, if u were 2 transport, there would have 2 b some kinda computer that would hold the information to, not only about how 2 put u back 2geather, but had the abbitly 2 remmber which atom went where. as u know,there is no such tech avaible at the mo.

i think a more real idea is 2 use space time. worm holes and black holes would b far simpler 2 transport some1 than 2 transport directly.

one question 4 u all, if u had the abitty 2 transport some1 from pont A to point B, would the person that came out be the same person that went in. (is it the way the mind is made up from, that determens who some1 is, or the things in a persons brain?) could u transport some1s experince?

thecurly1,

You're close to the nub of the problem, in that the oscilllation of atoms, etc., will make it hard to determine and re-establish their positions, but...

The vector (speed and direction) must also be restored, and, according to Heisenberg, it will not be possible to determine both the position and vector, only one or the other. To reconstitute and object, let alone a person, this would be necessary. Teleporting an electron is not the same; the electron is an electron, but anything more complex is a relationship between particles, and that requires information on motion.

If this isn't clear yet, imagine your body cooled to absolute zero, where there would be no motion of any particles; would you still be you???? It would be an even bigger problem if all the particles were restored to the proper place, but with random vectors (motion.) The electrons in your neurons going in random directions, body fluids going backwards, heart muscles out of sync. Not a very pleasant propect.

Besides, if we had teleportation to count on, we'd soon take it for granted and be late for work anyway.

If we cooled an object to absolute zero, there would be nearly no movement of atoms, but there is still the problem of transporting significantly large object through space, vis a vi removing atoms from their bonds. There are probably over ten thousand trillion atoms in the human body alone, there would be too many to calculate with a computer now, or even one a hundred years more advanced. The logistics are the real problem, not me.

I must admit that I am taken aback by the view that teleportation is considered by most here to be a one-step process. Perhaps the correct way to think out such a difficult subject would be to tightly couple all of the existing technologies and THEN put a futurist spin to them.

For example, not less than 15 minutes ago, I teleported my voice (in real time believe it or not) across three continents.

If you add in a dash of 3-d holography, humans would be able to perceive the 'teleported' individual.

Folks a lot smarter than me can fill in the rest. I like reading this stuff but you guys should keep it simple. You get better results that way!!

Originally posted by Oliver
forget about those tv series!!! We are trying to think about teleportation seriously..... Stop using Startrek, Stargate and The Outer Limits as material !!!! use your brains! :mad:

Well, those SF videos inspire us to come up the solution. The explanation given by non-technical writers is taken with the spirit it was written. Have you ever seen a computer keyboard spark like fourth of July fireworks? or a palm pilot shoot out lightning bolts?

Actually Stargate idea is much closer to the truth than Startrek in teleportation. WE will have intraplanet teleportation in 30 years where we will move the whole body (not information, not atoms or clones) from point A to point B. How? same way we can talk in almost realtime across the planet on the tele-phone.

What that means is we have no idea what the technology basis will be anymore than Da Vinci knew what an airplane will look like or the caveman knew what is the theory behind antibiotics...I think, we will find some obscure physical law that can be manipulated for the intended result.

Having said that, we should do some real research and find anything that we could use towards a real solution rather than relying on the SF to give us all the answers. Since I will be the co-inventor of the teleportation technology in 2023, I need all the help I can get!!!

The idea of stripping atoms apart and spewing them across a void to deposit them at a destination point in the precise order that these atoms were in to begin with..........seems like a daunting task at least. But what the hell. Anything is possible, as you all know.

Scan and store in a huge computer memory device, every last patterned atom (or at least most) in the human body. <i> "Spock, how much computer memory are we talking about?"</i>

MRI, CAT, PET,.......... hell guys, even if some 21st century Leonardo never quite develops a perfect scanning device which is able to store all of the necessary information about a prospective teleporting guinea pig, required to re-assemble it at the destination point, he (Leonardo) will have one hell of a device which will doubtlessly revolutionize the ability of medical scientists to diagnose and treat the injuries and ailments of all living beings. Heck, there could be some money to be made in that field of study. :confused:

<b>Sub-Atomic oscillation?</b> You got me on that. The inability to predict the present/future positions of sub-atomic particles so as to scan them into a memory buffer? Offhand, I would wonder if a scanning device might incorporate yet another piece of technology which could detect the various resonation frequencies of the matter within a chambered organism/test object and thus store the information based on a rhythmn, if such a thing could possibly exist???????:confused: Also, it occurs to me that the natural space/time oscillations between the source and the destination point would also have to be allowed for in much the same way.



<i>"If this isn't clear yet, imagine your body cooled to absolute zero, where there would be no motion of any particles; would you still be you???? It would be an even bigger problem if all the particles were restored to the proper place, but with random vectors (motion.) The electrons in your neurons going in random directions, body fluids going backwards, heart muscles out of sync. Not a very pleasant propect." </i> ....quote from rlpete2....

<b>That reminds me of the first time that I decided to build a hot rod Chevy engine (283 small block). I was 14 at the time and knew just enough about engine rebuilding to end up with an engine that performed almost exactly as ripete2's previous quote</b>

Many mistakes will be made during the learning process........:cool:

...and if you think that commercial of firing little furry critters at a target wall with a hole in it would upset the animal rights movement think of what inside out furry little critters would do...

AMEN....

:D TRUE. AND I WOULD LAUGH MY ASS OFF EVERYTIME IT HAPPENED:D

it was my understanding that u can not make anything absolute zero, as that would have 2 make the heat that an atom gives out 2 become nothing. this would b kinda like switching it off, it would then become unstable and give a lil bang kinda like the size of an atom bomb.

or am i thinking of something else?

How did we go from teleportation to absolute zero? Anyway, if abolute zero means no energy then there is nothing, nada, zilch. No electron buzzing around. No photon going at the speed of light. Just nothing... I think...

Hi Kmguru, Ogster,

Absolute zero (0 Kelvin) would be a state where there's no energy left in an atom lattice. However, there are some problems reaching 0 K:

1. In thermodynamics there's a theorem that prevents this(sometimes referred to as the third law of thermodynamics, or cited as an equivalent of the hundreds of formulations of the third law). The theorem states that you cannot reach 0 K by any number of finite operations (it would hence take an infinite amount of operations and time to cool to 0 K).

2. Quantummechanically speaking, you can describe the oscillations of atoms in their lattice as a harmonic oscillation. The problem is that harmonic oscillators in quantummechanics cannot have an energy zero (which would correspond to 0 K thermic energy equivalent), because the ground state always has a tiny fraction of energy left.

But that's just the theory ofcourse... And theories are to be proven wrong ;).

Bye!

Crisp

I think that conciousness is just the way we respond to everyday situations using the information that we stored in our brains. Of we could transmit body codes, we are also sending the information in our brain, thus when dealing with sitations after the the codes are transmitted, it wouldn't be any different to the way the conciousness was before.

(Hope I'm getting I idea across, can't seem to express myself clearly today.)

Hi Hevene,
I have been away for my holidays, so I have not been able to reply earlier.
What exactly do you mean with "body codes"?
If you try to say: "you can transfer the 'contents of one consciousness' into another consciousness" I have to disagree.

Hi Merlijn:

On second thought...I could be wrong.
body codes - genetic codes
What I was saying is just that, we react to everday situations because of the knowledge we stored in our brain from past experiences. When we transfer our codes, if we could also transfer the info in our brains, we could still have the same conciousness after the telepotation.
I'm not sure whether we could tranfer our knowledge, what do you think?

Indeed, when teleported, knowledge will be transferred as well. Our knowledge is not stored in codes, but in patterns. When the neural structure that contains the patterns is unchanged by the teleportation, the knowledge of the organism will be the same afterwards.
And probably, you would also have the same thought as when you "departed" (given that the process of teleportation takes approximately zero).
Luckily, your axons (the long part of the neuron) would conduct the neural signals in the same direction as they normally would, even when less-then-perfect information was used in the re-assimilation of your body (sorry, rlpete2 you were wrong here; and neurons use ions to conduct electrical signals, not electrons).

This answer only applies for 'non-dualistic' sentient beings... I started a discussion on the nature of consciousness in Science > Intelligence & Machines (Poll:What is the stuff our dreams are made of? (http://www.sciforums.com/t3131/s/thread.html)).

If you still have questions I will be glad to answer them.

~Merlijn

And probably, you would also have the same thought as when you "departed" (given that the process of teleportation takes approximately zero).

I would think that the time taken to teleport would be relative. If you are the observer it would take "x" time as nothing travels faster than light. The farther the distance the longer it takes. For the teleportee's viewpoint it would be instanous as he would be in a static state (being disassembled).


Luckily, your axons (the long part of the neuron) would conduct the neural signals in the same direction as they normally would, even when less-then-perfect information was used in the re-assimilation of your body

What are your speculations if this should not happen? If they did indeed reverse their path?

. For the teleportee's viewpoint it would be instanous as he would be in a static state (being disassembled).
Yes, that is what I meant. the local (or expriereced) time of the teleportee. I can imagine a way of teleportation in which that time is not zero, but that is besides the point.

very simple model of a typical neuron:
http://condor.stcloudstate.edu/~psy/psy115/ch2/neuron.gif

My guess is:
If the direction of the neural signal over the axon would be inverted, nothing much would happen (except that your heart may stop beating - minor problem). The signal would travel towards the soma (body) of the neuron, which would get polarised. After that the signal would get lost, because the soma nor the dendrites can give a signal off to other neurons.
So after that, I think, the neural system would function normally again; just as if nothing out of the ordinary (except for the teleportation) had happened.

~Merlijn

Hey guys,
I'm new to this forum so please bear with me if my ideas sound stupid. Due to the fact that I have not read all posts I'm sorry if I'm repeating anything.


I disagree with the idea that you would have to disentangle an object atom by atom and then reanimate it at the destanitation. I think the process is much simpler Heres the idea:

space, time, and motion are the only way matter interacts. motion being a combination of movement through space and time you could move from point A to point B without sacrificing space and time.... basically the same thing because they need eachother to exist otherwise they would be pointless.so what you would need to do is create a wormhole by disentangling space and time, thus voiding them, between into a non existant pathway where walking in one side would lead you directly out the other some distance away. I'm only 15 so basically I'm to lazy to think of how you could dissentangle space and time. I'm sure I am capable of finding the answer because i'm halfway there by just understanding the problem. maybe in about three years when I'm living in a cardboard box and have nothing better to do.

I think it realy comes down to what you believe a human is composed of. If you take the view that we are just a very advanced biological machine as hard science tends to, then by replicating all of our physical systems you would automaticly "reload" your conscious mind and mental phychie, complete with memories and emotions. You would be exactualy who you were before you were sent. If you believe however that we have a soul or spirit that gives us our annimation that's a different matter, you'de be screwed. If you had to distroy the ogiginal after sending the instructions so as to avoid cloning, you certainly wouldn't want to get the message "Unable to send message: Please try again later" ! ha ha.

By the way, I havn't read a lost of the later posts. If someone has already said much the same thing "PLEASE FORGIVE ME WAAA, WAAA, BOO HOO".....

Spacegate

Is there anything in quantum physics that prevents us building a stargate like contraption at say Los Angeles and Newyork connected by an optical data network such that you step into the Los Angeles booth and a few millisecond later step out at New York?

instead of this de-construction/re-construction, we should be thinking of other methods, such as spatial warping. Like inthe movie Event Horizon, they used gravity to bend space. So that the shortest distance wasn't a strait line, the shortest distance was nothing. All you have to do is bend space so that the distance between the two points is lessened or even close to non-existant for that period of time.

It's not as complicated as taking someone apart atom by atom and then putting them back together somewhere else, and worrying about if the "conscienceness" will be intact or if all the atoms were assembled correctly.

This way, you don't have to worry about that. All you do is reduce the distance, not breeak down matter to it's smallest form.

Black holes bend space all the time so it theoretically is possible.

Hi all,

kmguru:

Is there anything in quantum physics that prevents us building a stargate like contraption at say Los Angeles and Newyork connected by an optical data network such that you step into the Los Angeles booth and a few millisecond later step out at New York?

There are no real constraints. The issues to address in this kind of technology are mostly practical ones... Like preventing data gets lost, not quite a good idea :).

01001010:


Instead of this de-construction/re-construction, we should be thinking of other methods, such as spatial warping. All you have to do is bend space so that the distance between the two points is lessened or even close to non-existant for that period of time.
It's not as complicated as taking someone apart atom by atom.

The idea has been put forward a couple of times for all sorts of problems (FTL, intergalaxian exploration, ...) but unfortunately warping space and time has far more problems than the current "teleportation" idea's. For example: how would you prevent your wormhole from collapsing ? It takes quite a lot of energy (read: more than the entire earth could deliver). To form a wormhole you would need black holes. I don't think many people would appreciate a black hole being put in New York and another in Los Angeles for teleportation reasons :).

Bye!

Crisp

From here to there
Will we ever be able to teleport people to faraway places? It all depends on the strange uncertainties of the quantum world
TO A classically trained physicist, perhaps the most galling aspect of the quantum world is the way that nothing seems real until it is measured. Suppose you want to know something about a quantum particle - say the polarisation of a photon of light. Before you make the measurement, the photon isn't really polarised in a particular direction. Instead, it has a ghostly range of possible polarisations, each with some probability of being measured. When you measure the photon's polarisation you will get a definite answer. But the snag is, all the other ghostly possibilities will vanish in the process, and the original, indefinite state is lost forever.
So the act of measuring a particle actually destroys some of the information about its pristine state. That would seem to make it practically impossible to copy such particles and reproduce them elsewhere. But ironically, one of the quantum world's strange tricks turns this argument on its head. It turns out that you can re-create an unmeasured quantum state - as long as you are prepared to sacrifice the original. The trick exploits the very uncertainty that makes quantum measurements so puzzling in the first place.
It was the physicist Charles Bennett from IBM's labs at Yorktown Heights in New York who introduced the world to the idea of quantum teleportation in 1993 - in theory that is. Bennett and his co-workers found a way for an imaginery character called Alice to teleport a particle to her friend Bob, some distance away. What happens is that Bob creates a particle in exactly the same state as Alice's original particle - even though Alice never knew what that state was.
Suppose Alice and Bob wanted to copy a photon. Alice can't just measure her photon and send the results to Bob, because that would destroy some of the information Bob needs. Fortunately, quantum theory has a more subtle means of communication. An extra pair of "entangled" photons opens up the teleportation channel between Alice and Bob.
According to quantum theory, you can tangle up a pair of photons so that their properties are inextricably linked. This holds true even if you send them to opposite ends of the Earth: measure one photon at the North Pole and you immediately determine the state of the other photon at the South Pole.
Perplexed? You're in good company. In fact, Albert Einstein and his younger colleagues Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosen dreamt up this photon scenario to show just how absurd and unacceptable quantum mechanics was. It appears to demand the impossible - measurements in one place producing an instantaneous effect somewhere else. Ironically, experiments have shown that "EPR" pairs of particles do indeed communicate in this "spooky" (Einstein's word) fashion. More of this later. For now there's Alice and Bob's problem to solve.
Alice has an unmeasured, pristine photon that she wants to teleport to Bob. First, she creates a pair of linked EPR photons, keeping one with her while sending the other off to Bob. She then arranges for her unmeasured photon to interact with her EPR photon, measures the result of that interaction, and sends the answer on to Bob the old-fashioned way - by phone, e-mail, fax or carrier pigeon.
And now the mysterious part. Bob receives Alice's message, and depending on what it says, performs some prearranged operation on his EPR photon - the other half of the entangled pair that Alice created. For instance, he might change the polarisation of his photon by an amount that depends on the information Alice sent him. At the end of this procedure, Bob's photon has become an exact replica of Alice's original unmeasured photon. The quantum state of that photon - although not the photon itself - has been teleported from Alice to Bob.
What's going on here? Well, to re-create the photon - to teleport it - you need to transmit two kinds of information about its state. One kind is the ordinary, everyday information. That's the easy part. You can measure it and send the details by an ordinary route. But what about the quantum information - the stuff that disappears when you make your measurement? The trick to transmitting this lies in the secret, spooky connection between Alice and Bob's EPR photons. By persuading her unknown photon to interact with her EPR photon, Alice made Bob's EPR photon, the other half of the entangled pair, interact with the unknown photon as well.
Via the spooky EPR channel, Bob therefore receives some strange, quantum information about the state of the photon Alice wants to teleport. That's not the whole story though, because Alice also has to measure something about the interaction of her two photons, and send the result to Bob. But if all is done correctly, Bob receives a combination of spooky quantum information and plain old classical information that allows him to reproduce Alice's original unknown photon.
Not surprisingly, this is an extremely tricky experiment to get right. The joint measurement that Alice makes on the unknown photon and her EPR photon must be carefully designed and executed. Alice and Bob have to ensure the EPR photons remain absolutely untouched by any unwanted external interaction. If either photon were to bump into a stray atom somewhere along the way, for instance, that would destroy their spooky connection. But last year two teams of scientists, one at the University of Innsbruck and the other at the University of Rome, managed to teleport a photon. From one side of their lab to another, anyway.
There are a few interesting provisos about this process. First, Alice has to send Bob the results of her measurements by a standard, slower-than-light means, so even though the spooky part of teleportation is instantaneous, the equally essential non-spooky part is not. Quantum teleporting can't happen faster than light, something Einstein would be pleased to learn. Second, Alice's measurement destroys the quantum state of her original photon. Third, neither Alice nor Bob will ever actually know what that original quantum state was. Directly measuring a quantum state will always destroy information about it in an unpredictable way. Alice can teleport a quantum state to Bob only on the strict understanding that neither party can ever know exactly what state they teleported.
But what does all of this mean for Star Trek style teleportation, where an entire person is transported from one place to another? Certain difficulties spring to mind. To teleport a collection of atoms, rather than just a single photon, the EPR channel of communication has to transmit not just one item of spooky quantum information but a whole package of it. This requires not just a large number of individual EPR pairs, which would be bad enough, but a single EPR complex encompassing a huge number of particles. It would be well nigh impossible to construct such a state, let alone send it off into the ether without destroying its integrity.
And that's not at all. To teleport Jean-Luc Picard, you would have to send a complete specification of the collective quantum state of every last electron and atom in his body - all in an instant. A tall order. Alice would have to devise a single, instantaneous measurement that would ensnare all this information at once, and Bob would have to perform a similarly complex reconstruction at the other end. And suppose you destroy Jean-Luc Picard's quantum representation in one place and re-create it in another. Would the reconstruction be, in every respect, the same man? Would it act as the original would have acted? That's for you to figure out...

Crisp:

Elsewhere I wrote: Somewhere I read, according to physicist Julian Barbour, and Wheeler-DeWitt equation, TIME does not exist. Even the Universe is too small. We live in Platonia, where every instance lives forever. (Plato argued that reality is composed of eternal and changeless forms...). The impression of motion only arises due to a special structure of our perception...

Some think, that when physicists finally iron out a new theory of the universe, both time and space may not be included...


Do you think Julian's theory can help our teleportation problem?

The only thing reasonably close to teleportation would be creating a wormhole as a shortcut between two points.

Splitting us up, transfereing us and putting us back together is virutally imposible.

Hi all,

Wet1,

Interesting article: it addresses the fundamental problem of creating an exact replica of a particle/photon at a location different than the original. However, I don't think quantummechanics will prevent us from teleporting objects/humans from one location to another.

The article even mentions why: the ordinary information they talk about (position, momentum, ...) is exactly the information relevant for our discussion. You don't really need all the hidden quantumstates to reconstruct an object at a given location since even looking at a particle destroys all the quantumstates except one, the result of your measurement - so the hidden quantumstates don't carry any real useful information (they do from a theoretical point of view ;)).

One argument you might use is that a particle can have several energies at once (yes, this is quantummechanics - scary huh) and that this information might get lost during the replication process. Quantum mechanics tells you that a given particle can have a spreaded energy about one mean energy value. Statistically speaking, this is not really a problem at all: you will be succesful in getting most of the energylevels about right in your replica. There's one unfortunate - luckily statistically neglegible - situation that might arise: during the measuring of the energy of the original particles, you might get too high values for all particles (since quantum measurements have a "random" character), leading to a copy that has all the energy levels of the particles mixed up - possibly leading to an explosion of the replica or similar, not quite good for a human being transported.

Even some mismatches in energylevels are not really a problem. The "spreading" in the energy of particles increases rapidly as time evolves, so you'll find your particle back in almost 100% its original energy distribution right after the teleportation.


kmguru,


Somewhere I read, according to physicist Julian Barbour, and Wheeler-DeWitt equation, TIME does not exist.

Could you give me a bit more information on this (source you got it from would be a good start I guess) ? To be honest I have never heard of Barbour or the Wheeler-DeWitt equation. But to claim that time and motion are only because of human senses makes no .. sense ... to me: that would lead to some very wierd idea's. For example: a plant grows, even when nobody is looking at it - but if time and motion are related to perception, then this plant must have some sort of perception ? I think I got the idea wrong somewhere though :) (but hey, it's 4am here so everything seems improbable and not plausible at the moment)

Bye!

Crisp

Fascinating! Pure energy!

Crisp:

Here is the reference. You have to go to discover.com site to collect the article from the back issue.

DISCOVER Vol. 21 No. 12 (December 2000)
Table of Contents

From Here to Eternity
Imagine a universe with no past or future, where time is an illusion and everyone is immortal. Welcome to that world, says physicist Julian Barbour
By Tim Folger

Let me know, what you think.

Thanks

(I can PM you that article if you could not find it on the net or library)

Does anyone know how to teleport, me and my friends are doing a reaserch project on how to teleport. Can anyone help?

I do. I'll be there in a second... Hang on...

Apparently we're time travelling too...

instead of this de-construction/re-construction, we should be thinking of other methods, such as spatial warping. Like inthe movie Event Horizon, they used gravity to bend space. So that the shortest distance wasn't a strait line, the shortest distance was nothing. All you have to do is bend space so that the distance between the two points is lessened or even close to non-existant for that period of time.

It's not as complicated as taking someone apart atom by atom and then putting them back together somewhere else, and worrying about if the "conscienceness" will be intact or if all the atoms were assembled correctly.

This way, you don't have to worry about that. All you do is reduce the distance, not breeak down matter to it's smallest form.

Black holes bend space all the time so it theoretically is possible.

Unfortunately, your body is crushed into comso dust at the speed of light, but hey, it's a killer ride! :D

Seriously, the thought process is far from being understood. It really is a miracle how everything works together with accuracy and precision. At this point, we may be able to transport our bodies, but that's it.

Interesting theory to bend space, isn't it. I wonder how much energy you need to do that?

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I had a dream that I was involved in a company that developed teleportation. I supported financially to develop the contraption. The last name of the person in charge was "Davis". It had a platform and a keypad to go to the other platform. I can not remember the details as to how it was done. I am hoping to dream again and get some clue...but apparently in the dream we found habitable planets from probes sent from Earth. That means, it is a long way down the road....

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I wonder if we could put together bits and pieces from our members who have similar dreams to see if in fact dreams provide an window to the future....just a thought...

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Does anyone know how to teleport, me and my friends are doing a reaserch project on how to teleport. Can anyone help?

Well, there are problems with the idea:

1. Star Trek-style transporter:

a. At present, we understand that it is not possible to determine simultneously the location and vector of a subatomic particle. Therefor, if your body were broken down and analyzed, to reconstruct at a remote location, the receiving device might put the atoms in the right spot, but the motions of components would be random - the electrons might be going the wrong way - and you would be dead.

b. Were such a process possible, it would permit the reconstruction of multiple copies of you. That would raise significant ethical and legal issues, such as: which one of you owns your house?

2. Spacewarp - wormhole:

a. Wormholes exist only in theory, that they are possible. Unlike black holes, none have yet been observed.

b. Creating or controling a wormhole would require energy on the scale of at least a medium sized black hole.

c. Considering that black holes rip material objects to pieces, it seems unlikely that a meterial object could go through a wormhole in any form but disorganized energy.

d. The closest thing to a space warp that has been observed is the gravitational lensing of light by a massive object. The bending is very slight, not enough to bring distant places into proximity.

3. That leaves one remaining possibility, the organic approach: Just the right combination of tequila, jalapenos and certain illegal herbs has been known to give the perception of mobility through time, space and states of mind. Be sure to order pizza ahead of time, as you will be very hungry when you get back.