Hey, here's another topic y'all ain't discussed or mentioned ....the New Texas and Arizona Minutemen ....border patrol vigilanties!

I think it's about time that we, the people, took matters into our own hands if the government can't do it. The Minutemen can patrol the border of Mexico and keep the illegal immigrant infiltration to a bare minimum, if any get through at all.

Sure, it's vigilantyism, but that's NOT a bad word, ya' know.

Perhaps some of our major cities will take note and use the same tactics to fight the ever-increasing crime in their OWN cities! The cops can't do it ....mainly because the whining, liberal, doo-gooders are helping the criminals more than the innocent civilians!

Baron Max

Geez, I almost can't believe that you liberals don't have anything to say about this topic??? That confuses me some ....does it mean that you think it's a good idea, but you just don't want to say anything?

Baron Max

Yea, right on B Max!

Kill any and all dirty mexicans trying to cross over an imaginary line to make a better life for themselves!





or get real...

Yea, right on B Max! Kill any and all dirty mexicans trying to cross over an imaginary line to make a better life for themselves!

It's not about killing them, for god's sake! So it's ignorance that keeps people from responding to this topic ....thinking that vigilanties are blood-thirsty, vicious mobs like in the old western movies?? ....LOL! No wonder no one is responding! ...LOL!

Baron Max

No one is responding because they do not have an irrational and disproportionate fear of mexican hordes streaming across the border and stealing their jobs. If people were to respond, it would be to express their disgust that the name "minutemen" was commandeered by a bunch of overweight, untrained middle-aged old men who sit around in deck chairs in the desert.

This makes me laugh, for some reason:


During one patrol near the Bible College, freelance videographers and Minutemen volunteers Diane and Lawrence Headrick discovered a migrant sleeping in a tunnel beneath a highway.

Diane, an adhesive bandage on her chin, recounted the panic the event inspired: "I was just looking around and saw the illegal laying down over there," she said, pointing toward the tunnel. "I couldn’t believe it, and turned around to run as fast as I could, but fell down and hit my face on the ground."


http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=1692

No one is responding because they do not have an irrational and disproportionate fear of mexican hordes streaming across the border and stealing their jobs.

It's not irrational and disporportionate .....illegal entry into the US is a staggering problem. And it's not just the fear of losing jobs! For one thing, it's ILLEGAL .....or are you suggesting that we permit criminal activity?

Well, it's illegal to "stream across the border", but the Border Patrol can't stop it - and they admit it. So the Minutemen are volunteering to help patrol the border and help stop the criminal activity. What's wrong with that?

Or are you saying the we should permit anyone to come into the US without legal papers? ...just anyone?

Baron Max

Perhaps some of our major cities will take note and use the same tactics to fight the ever-increasing crime in their OWN cities! The cops can't do it ....mainly because the whining, liberal, doo-gooders are helping the criminals more than the innocent civilians!

I honestly don't know what you're talking about here. Liberals haven’t exactly been in a good position to have any effect on this situation in a good number of years, and again I'd add that if you are indeed 60 years old as you have claimed previously, that crime levels - especially violent crimes - have dropped dramatically and consistently within your life time. In other words, this whole obsession with vigilante justice would have been much better suited to your world when you were in your prime and could actually bother doing anything about it, as opposed to today as a senile old man living in a rather safe country.

Furthermore I'd point out that the boarder insecurity is due in large part to the efforts of Republicans. Neither party has done much to stop it, it's true, but Republicans are the ones currently in power, and they give every indication of being quite in favor of allowing illegal immigration to continue, even going so far as to propose amnesty programs - it is, after all part of free market economics. Don't tell me that you're trying to bad mouth market forces, Max! That's heresy! You're starting to sound like a damned liberal protectionist!

Hey, here's another topic y'all ain't discussed or mentioned
We, Max, not "y'all", we!!!!!! We havn't discussed.


As for the 'minutemen', the problem I have with it is that these guys are often very racist, and very armed, not a good combo. If all they were doing was send the immigrants back to Mexico, and not to that stairway in the sky, I might reconsider it.

This makes me laugh, for some reason:

Made me laugh. :rolleyes:

As for the 'minutemen', the problem I have with it is that these guys are often very racist, and very armed, not a good combo. If all they were doing was send the immigrants back to Mexico, and not to that stairway in the sky, I might reconsider it.

They must follow the law like any other citizen of the USA ...no more, no less. A murder would be investigated as a murder. I'd suggest that you read up on the group's intentions before passing too hasty a judgement.

Their mission is NOT to kill anyone or to send them back, it's to apprehend them and call for the Border Patrol. As I understand it, and agree, being armed is for SELF-defense only ....many of the "coyotes" are well armed. ("Coyote" is the nickname for the smugglers of humans!)

By the way, would you say the same thing about "Neighborhood Watch Programs" or "Block Patrol Parties" as used in many American cities/towns? They're vigilaties, too! The word is NOT a bad word, nor does it mean mobs out to hang people.

Y'all is a proper word and is listed prominently in the Dictionary.

Baron Max

Y'all is a proper word and is listed prominently in the Dictionary.

Haha, no you missed my point. My point was that you should have said WE because it is we. Y'all would imply that you were pointing out to some other entity that they had not covered a topic, but you are part of that entity, whether your pessimistic self likes it or not! :rolleyes:

BM,

Regardless if they are hunting the immigrants down, or simply asking them to leave at the barrel of a gun, or maybe just calling up the ol' border patrol - the laws are wrong in this case. It is an imaginary line and on one side of it, people are better off than the other. Those less well off are going to come across that imaginary line whether or not these vigilante groups are around are not. Take down the border, have a real free market in which there is no artificial controls of where humans migrate, and you have a solution. Building a wall or lining up along the border with walkie talkies (don't these people have day jobs?) to stop people from seeking a better life will never work.

crap, the libertarian in me came out...

There needs to be some incentive scheme put into place for them to stay in Mexico rather than wanting to come to the US. Some seem to think that throwing 'em in prison, or shooting' at 'em is the best incentive - but then the fact that they could die out in the desert doesn't seem to stop 'em in the first place. My feeling is that if we want so desperately to keep them from coming into our country, then we've got an obligation to help 'em make a more tolerant environment out of their own country. In the end I think that a strong Mexico is in the US’s own best interest, especial from a security standpoint.

I think with all the crap the 3 branches of the govt is handing us people may actually stop coming over on their own.

I doubt that, I mean you can still drink the water here. . . It's got more arsenic and mercury in it than it used too, but it's still drinkable.

I doubt that, I mean you can still drink the water here. . . It's got more arsenic and mercury in it than it used too, but it's still drinkable.

that's true plus I forgot that if you have a green card you get free medical

It is an imaginary line and on one side of it, people are better off than the other. .... Take down the border, have a real free market in which there is no artificial controls of where humans migrate, and you have a solution.

"Imaginary line"? "No artificial controls..."? So if immigrants want to camp out in the backyards of US residents, that's just fine with you? ...and we shouldn't ask them to leave? ...'cause they're just seeking a better life?

Hmm, let me think on that a bit, okay?

Baron Max

Why doesn't Bush put a stop to it? Could it be that he would lose the hispanic vote? Is he putting politics before national security? Perhaps the border is under closer scrutiny than we think. We might want to lure terrorists across the border and then get them with navy seals or something, at least I hope.

I'm against citizen intervention in this case, but law enforcement agencies should do something about it. It's not the mexicans I'm worried about.

Why doesn't Bush put a stop to it?

Well, there's over 2,000 miles of Mexican border ...that's a lot of Border Patrol agents, don't you think? And it's also a helluva lot of money, a helluva lot of tax dollars (that most people won't agree to pay willingly!). With the Minutemen, they're free, they cost the government nothing, the cost the taxpayers nothing and they help patrol the border and stop illegal immigration ....what better solution can you think of?

So why are you against citizen intervention? Are you also against the neighborhood watch programs in many cities ....citizens watching out for their own neighborhood? Why, how can you be against it? It makes no sense to me. It's like the Iraqis "letting" the terrorists attack and kill them without doing a damned thing to help stop it. Does that also make sense to you?

And, yeah, I agree to a point, that it's not JUST about Mexicans. It's about ILLEGAL border crossings .....and if the Minutemen can help stop it, how, why can you be against it?

Baron Max

barron max I have strong reservations to minutemen patrolling the boarders armed but think that non-armed community service volunteers who report the crossings to border patrol may be a better route.

The issue I have with minutemen revolves around the notion that the boarder patrol guards we have in place have:

1) passed an interview.
2) passed a psych exam
3) took a firearm training and saftey course
4) are licensed to be law enforcement officers in their state
5) recieve ongoing and specialized training in their field.

the result is few to almost no killings of illegals crossing the boarder and few if any officer injuries. Rest assured that would change of a bunch of beer drinking gun tooting bubbas started patroling the boarder and "kicking tail".

But, if there were groups who took a workshop, got guidance from boarder patrol officers, did not carrry guns and were instructed not to phyically interact with suspects but instead radio it in that might be a workable compromise.

But, if there were groups who took a workshop, got guidance from boarder patrol officers, did not carrry guns and were instructed not to phyically interact with suspects but instead radio it in that might be a workable compromise.

You seem to think that a radio call would bring Border Patrol agents instantly. The border is over 2,000 miles long and the few agents that we have are already on patrol in other areas. They can't just drop everything and run 1,000 miles at the drop of a hat!

The rest of your post implies that you want fully trained and lisenced patrol agents, but you don't want to pay them! That's not very nice, is it?

And besides, the Minutemen DO get some training and most of them are lisenced to carry concealed weapons in the state ...thus implying more training.


...that would change of a bunch of beer drinking gun tooting bubbas started patroling the boarder and "kicking tail".

What doo-gooder, liberal extremist propoganda have you been reading? These men and women are simply volunteering their time and energy to help patrol the border ...with no pay and no recognition. They aren't "gun-tottin' bubbas", they're family men and women, homeowners with children and jobs just like the rest of us.

If you know anything about this, you know that the Border Patrol simply can NOT adequately patrol the miles and miles of open border. They simply don't have enough men. The volunteers help alleviate much of that problem. And it costs the taxpayers nothing. I don't see how anyone can complain ...other than throwing out such radical talk as "gun-tottin' bubbas" ....which is pure bullshit.

Baron Max

I'm against these minutemen as well as neighborhood watchers, I give them the finger whenever they snoop past my apartment.

I think the motive behind the minutemen is to make the government's job obsolete because they have wacky conservative ideas about it. This is the government's job, this is why I pay taxes- to have professionals dealing with law enforcement. Where is the National Guard?

Oh, right, getting blown to bits in Iraq.

No governmental power can do anything of any value in sealing our leaky borders. It would be political suicide. Don't expect the army or the national guard or even the police to do jack squat.

While I think these people are nuts, I am fine with them running around... provided they don't get too triggerhappy. If it can scare the brains out of potential immagrents to the point that they give up hopes of crossing the border, all the better. These volunteers are really just normal people who want to fix a major problem the only way they can think of.

Anyway, its still better than the next suggestion on the list: Lotsa lottsa landmines. ;)

Its better than the next idea on the list

This is the government's job, this is why I pay taxes- to have professionals dealing with law enforcement.

So would you be willing to pay that much more for the thousands of Border Patrol agents to stem the flow of illegal immigration? Most people would not, even while decrying the illegal crossings!


Where is the National Guard?

The army (military) is NOT permitted to function as national police ...it's against the law!

Now if we could just rename the illegal crossings as an "invasion" of foreign troops, we could use the National Guard. But until then, they aren't permitted that role (except in emergencies of some kind?).

Baron Max

So would you be willing to pay that much more for the thousands of Border Patrol agents to stem the flow of illegal immigration? Most people would not, even while decrying the illegal crossings!
Soooo, now our national security is negotiable? I wouldn't have agreed to pay a jillion dollars a day in Iraq, but at least this is real homeland security. Build a fence like the Israelis.

Just admit the cons don't want homeland security, they want insecurity. ...And they want the hispanic vote.

Well, yes, they want the hispanic vote. It can make or break an election much of the time so no sane man wants to alienate it. All the good intentions in the world don't mean a damn thing if you can't stay in office. As for the fence idea, as Baron stated, its illegal.

Soooo, now our national security is negotiable? I wouldn't have agreed to pay a jillion dollars a day in Iraq, but at least this is real homeland security.

Well, in our system of government, you DID agree to pay for the war in Iraq ...the congress, YOUR representatives, voted to go to war.

The same is true for any additional money for border patrol and security ...the congress needs to allocate the necessary money for it ...YOUR representatives must approve it (and at the present time, they don't ...but they're willing to bitch and moan about illegal immigration!).

But now, with the Minutemen, we have a way of helping to stem the illegal immigration WITHOUT using any tax dollars ...AND... it appears to be working in parts of Arizona and New Mexico. But yet some people complain? Why?

As to the fence ....can you imagine the cost of building a fence 2,000 miles long in such remote areas as that? Where does the money come from?

Baron Max

The army (military) is NOT permitted to function as national police ...it's against the law!
Yes, but that doesn't apply to the National Guard. They are called out sometimes for domestic issues, like shooting uppity hippies or keepin' them coloreds from integratin'.

I don't think the idea of a better fence is illegal. We can keep the cost down by hiring mexicans to build it, thus killing two birds with one stone.

Yes, but that doesn't apply to the National Guard. They are called out sometimes for domestic issues, like shooting uppity hippies or keepin' them coloreds from integratin'.

That would be called a "National Emergency", not an on-going police effort! There's a big, big difference.


We can keep the cost down by hiring mexicans to build it, thus killing two birds with one stone.

Huh? And thus take away all of those jobs from American citizens? Ain't that what the fuck this is all about in the first place????? ...LOL!

Baron Max

No, it's not about jobs. We can stop sending manufacturing jobs to China for one thing. In fact, all western countries (and Japan) need immigration to keep their economies going. I'm more worried about terrorists.

I think a war qualifies as a national emergency.

I'm more worried about terrorists.

And yet you don't want the Minutemen to help? Free of charge? No cost to you, the taxpayers, the government or anyone else not directly involved? Why?

And if you're worried about terrorists bombing our cities and killing thousands, then if the Minutemen "accidently" kill a few renegade illegals, you're gonna' be all pissed off about it? Why?


I think a war qualifies as a national emergency.

What war? Did we finally declare war on the Mexicans?

Baron Max

The war on terrorism? Remember that? Terrorists can enter through the Mexican border as easily as Mexicans do.


If they don't break the law, there is little reason to prohibit citizens from doing this, but it's a symptom of a greater problem. I also doubt their motivations are sincere.

The war on terrorism? Remember that? Terrorists can enter through the Mexican border as easily as Mexicans do.

The "war" on terror is not a declared war, for god's sake!! The war on terror is a news media blitz or somesuch bullshit.


If they don't break the law, there is little reason to prohibit citizens from doing this, but it's a symptom of a greater problem.

Well, there are some laws that could/might be enforced to keep the Minutemen from operating ...tho' no one wants to do it (and I'm not going to tell you what it is!!).

And what "symptom of a greater problem"? What does that mean?


I also doubt their motivations are sincere.

So, ...without any evidence, without any proof, you're going to fight this issue just because you "doubt" the sincerity? Is that the way we should operate on issues?

The Minutemen have been successful in Arizona and New Mexico and have helped the Border Patrol stop and capture and return thousands of illegals ....all without shooting anyone. However, you should also take not the many, many (thousands!) have been detained, arraigned, then set free on their own recognizence to appear in court later. Now what do you think those ILLEGALS are going to do next? ...wait around for their court date? ...or take off into the American interior? Our stupid, idiotic laws (and the doo-gooder liberals!) have thwarted every effort to stem the flow of illegals across the border.

Perhaps we SHOULD just shoot the bastards!!!

Baron Max

The "war" on terror is not a declared war, for god's sake!! The war on terror is a news media blitz or somesuch bullshit.
OK, it's not declared, so what? The families of 1770 dead US soldiers know all too well there's a war going on. What's the newly created Department of Homeland Security for?


So, ...without any evidence, without any proof, you're going to fight this issue just because you "doubt" the sincerity? Is that the way we should operate on issues?
I'm not fighting it, I'm just suspicious. I'm also dissapointed that shrub isn't doing anything about it, or port security, or train security, or chemical plant security, etc...

I'm all for the Minutemen. They're not being vigilantes, they're being outstanding citizens helping take care of a problem that lacks government manpower. Now if they actually went out, arrested the illegal immigrants, and shipped them back to Mexico themselves, then they would be vigilantes, heh, but they're just helping notify the border patrol of where problems arise. Like someone else said, this is no different than a neighborhood watch.

- N

P.S. I'm not a conservative. Blech!

No adequate border security, but plenty of tax cuts for the wealthy. That's Bush's plan to dominate the country, keep us afraid and encourage more attacks. Those pigfuckers will hang for this.

(Note to the SS; by hang I mean legitimately charged, tried and convicted of war crimes by the United States government)

That's Bush's plan to dominate the country, ...

Tell me honestly ....do you really believe such crap as that?

Can you seriously see how the nation is in turmoil and can't agree on any-fuckin'-thing, and yet still believe that one person, even a huge corporation, could hope to "dominate" the USA?

The government can't even keep us from polluting the rivers and lakes. The government can't even keep us from using oil at ever-increasing rates. The government can't control the health insurance company rates. The goverment can't control the growth and crime rates of major cities. The government can't .......................

And after all of that, can you honestly say that anyone or any group can actaully, really, dominate this nation???

Baron Max

Yup. Their motivation, in my opinion, is to keep the Republican party in power as long as possible, with little regard for our security. I admit, the extent of government power has limits, and controlling every individual isn't necessarily the aim, just maintaining control of all three branches of government. Considering that they can send people to Cuba with no due process, it is a little scary.

Yup. ....just maintaining control of all three branches of government.

And just how well are they doing that right at this moment? And worse, how well are they going to do that in the weeks to come?

See? You see things that just ain't happening .....and ye're running scared, yelling "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" ...and nothing is actually even coming down from the sky.

President Bush can't even get a new judge to the Supreme Court without a major, major fight ...if at all. Now please tell me, just how do you consider that as "dominating" the nation????????????????????????????

Baron Max

And just how well are they doing that right at this moment? And worse, how well are they going to do that in the weeks to come?

I'd say pretty damn good, the best I can ever remember.


President Bush can't even get a new judge to the Supreme Court without a major, major fight ...if at all. Now please tell me, just how do you consider that as "dominating" the nation????????????????????????????

Considering Sandra Day O' Conner was a moderate it doesn't make sense for Bush to hire a far right-winger. I urge Democrats to stand up and fight this even though there's absolutely nothing they can do.

Getting away with treason; 1,800 americans dead in iraq; 10's of thousands iraqi's dead; 300 billion dollars wasted from the Iraq War; Osama still on the run; Our economy ready to collapse; Findings that Bush led the nation into a false war under a false pretense. Just to get started......

And the public doesn't even raise an eyebrow

I'd say that's dominating the nation

I'd say that's dominating the nation

The war in Iraq was voted on and approved by the congress of the United States. So are you saying that the congress AND the administration are dominating the nation??? Huh?

Baron Max

The war in Iraq was voted on and approved by the congress of the United States. So are you saying that the congress AND the administration are dominating the nation??? Huh?

The only reason Congress approved Iraq was because of Bush's downright lies.

Build a big wall. Its that simple. Have checkpoints and give them work permits. Then make sure they leave.
Will it happen? No.
Its not as simple as "lets go build a wall". If you look at how much trouble they have had just trying to upgrade and extend the wall on the California border you'll see why it will never happen. The current tactic of fighting any wall building is "environental concerns".

The only reason Congress approved Iraq was because of Bush's downright lies.

So the congress just believes anything that the President tells them? Is that true all the time or just for this particular incident? And why is he haviing such a hard time with the Supreme Court nominee if congress believe whateve the President says? And why are they holding up so much of what the president wants? And why are they always on TV bitching n' moaning if they always do wahtever he wants?

They had access to the same intelligence as the administration. The intelligence services may have over-estimated the threat, but it wasn't lies from anyone ...if it had been, don't you think there'd already be impeachment hearings and news hounds doing investigative reporting and court actions and attorneys and special prosecutors, etc? Why is it that you don't see any of that? It's 'cause there wasn't any actual lying, it was misinterpration of the intelligence by many, many people from the undercover operatives all the way up to the administration.

But you and those like you don't want to consider that .....you'd prefer to blame President Bush 'cause it's more fun to bash him than to see through the fog of intelligence and numerous people involved. Easier to yell at and blame ONE person than the entire intelligence services of several nations.

Baron Max

Build a big wall. Its that simple.

Interesting that you say that, then in the very next comment, you say: "Its not as simple as "lets go build a wall"."

So I'm led to believe that you're either high or don't know wha the hell ye're talking about! Ye're for it, but ye're against it?

But even so, the latter part of your post is correct ...the fence won't really work. And that, of course, is the reason that the Minutemen are patrolling the borders. They're helping the Border Patrol, but liberal doo-gooders are all upset because they're patrolling the borders and helping????? How the hell does that make sense? Ahh, but wait, it's just liberal doo-gooder bullshit, ain't it!! I also think that it's funny how the liberals seem to think that if we put uniforms on them and pay them as Border Patrol agents, then everything is fine?!?!? ....LOL! Ahh, liberal doo-gooders speak ....ain't it fun?

Baron Max

So the congress just believes anything that the President tells them?

Why should they not. I'd also point out that the majority of congress is conservative so even if they disagree they're still going to vote for his policy's.


And why is he haviing such a hard time with the Supreme Court nominee if congress believe whateve the President says?

He's not; he should be having a hard time considering he's replacing a moderate with a far right winger.


And why are they always on TV bitching n' moaning if they always do wahtever he wants?

Who Bush? Nooo, he just makes up lies and false stories about people who oppose him. No need to defend your position if you can take down your opponents with bullshit.


if it had been, don't you think there'd already be impeachment hearings and news hounds doing investigative reporting and court actions and attorneys and special prosecutors, etc?

To my knowledge there is a special prosecutor (Valerie Plame). The media also barely ever touches on stuff like this. (For conservatives.)If this was a democrat the media would be all over it.

They had access to the same intelligence as the administration.

Yep, Congress did, however, the adminstration went out of their way to manipulate their intellegence to make it fit their agenda for war in Iraq. That's the big difference. This is why information and charisma is power because you can make anyone believe anything you want.

If Congress would have had access to all of the same information as the adminstration had, as opposed to having most of it filtered out, the war in Iraq would have never happened because none of that information was solid. Only when filtering out only what the adminstration wanted Congress to see, does it look solid. This is why the people that control the information are more powerful than our actual leaders. Our leaders can only base their decisions off information that is given to them by the lower ranking people that actually do control that information. So if those lower ranking people, or in this case, the adminstration, want things to go their way, they only need to show the higher ups only what they want them to see to fit their plan. And why should Congress think otherwise? Why would the adminstration want to lie? And for that, they're flippin morons because they know they're dealing with politics which is the most corrupt job ever, even worse than lawyers. When it comes to something as important as war, don't blindly rush into it.

- N

Our leaders can only base their decisions off information that is given to them by the lower ranking people that actually do control that information.

Ahh, now I see! We should start blaming first year intelligence officers, huh? ...LOL!!

I just don't see how y'all can see the system for what it is and what it does. There's no way this side of hell that anyone could "dominate" US politics ...it's just too damned complex. I'm amazed that y'all, being mostly young kids in high school, are so smart, so well-read, so well educated and experienced, that you can see such complex issues in such simplistic terms!

Ahh, to be a kid again ....when I was young, I knew it all, too.

Baron Max

Our leaders can only base their decisions off information that is given to them by the lower ranking people that actually do control that information. - N

Ahh, now I see! We should start blaming first year intelligence officers, huh? ...LOL!!

I just don't see how y'all can see the system for what it is and what it does. There's no way this side of hell that anyone could "dominate" US politics ...it's just too damned complex. -BM

Prove to me where that statement is incorrect. Surely with all the numerous and complex checks and balances in place, you'll be able to easily do so.


I'm amazed that y'all, being mostly young kids in high school, are so smart, so well-read, so well educated and experienced, that you can see such complex issues in such simplistic terms!

That's because most things are pretty damned simplistic. It's just that people like you thinking everything is so complex makes one automatically assume whatever situation comes across will be complex, making all the simple things happen right under our noses due to instant dismissal.


I'm amazed that y'all, being mostly young kids in high school... Ahh, to be a kid again ....when I was young, I knew it all, too.

Kid? Bzzzt, try again. Quit with your copouts and petty insults trying to make yourself sound more knowledable. Only unimportant, simple-minded idiots will side with you when you try and use those tactics. I forget, aren't you a Christian? If so, it sure does show.

- N

"So I'm led to believe that you're either high or don't know wha the hell ye're talking about! Ye're for it, but ye're against it?"

LOL

No Max. What I am saying is that the Solution is simple. You build a wall.
However, implementing that Solution is a whole different story.
Im all for it. Take a cue from the Isrealies with their big wall. It worked for the Chinese once upon a time ;)

Im all for it. Take a cue from the Isrealies with their big wall. It worked for the Chinese once upon a time

You do realize that the Great Wall of China was to keep the barbarian invaders INSIDE Chinese territory (to slaughter them easier due to not being able to retreat), and not out of it, right? Sounds bad for this to apply to illegal immigration, unless we too slaughter the invading immigrants. ;)

- N

You do realize that the Great Wall of China was to keep the barbarian invaders INSIDE Chinese territory (to slaughter them easier due to not being able to retreat), and not out of it, right? Sounds bad for this to apply to illegal immigration, unless we too slaughter the invading immigrants. ;)

- N

And you know it depends on which "Great Wall" you're talking about, right?

The Great Wall (all of them collectively) damn near economically broke the nation and cost it a great many good men. They would have done better to use the resources on strengthening themselves internally and forging new trade routes. That way they would have been tough enough not to need to worry about the barbarians.

I figure the mongols actually had a pretty good grasp of things. They didn't need fortifications. They defended by simply not being there when the enemy attacked... and then hitting them where it hurts until they were incapable of fighting and had to surrender.

Well I dont think we need a 40' thick wall.....

I think we should just shoot any moron with an iq of less than 130 or so. :o

mine's 123.....uh oh!

I think we should just shoot any moron with an iq of less than 130 or so.

Perhaps it's not such a bad idea, but what the hell does it have to do with this thread?

Baron Max

Perhaps it's not such a bad idea, but what the hell does it have to do with this thread?

Baron Max

Be a lot more practical than building a wall to keep everyone out, or patrolling the border to keep everyone out.

I think one of the best ideas that I've ever heard is that we have an open hunting season on illegal immigrants, say, within five miles of the border. My guess is that there'd be a lot, A LOT, less illegal border crossings .....except at very damned well guarded LEGAL crossing points.

Baron Max

I'd be there in a heartbeat. What would your gun of choice be for shooting the illegals or the low iq types? I think I'd choose a .50 cal sniper rifle, and for the close in work, a plain ole shreader. :p

I think one of the best ideas that I've ever heard is that we have an open hunting season on illegal immigrants, say, within five miles of the border. My guess is that there'd be a lot, A LOT, less illegal border crossings .....except at very damned well guarded LEGAL crossing points.

Well, since you love to go by LAW, let's be like the Brits. There's still a law where on Sundays, you can still legally kill a Scotsman with a longbow (or something to that effect). I wonder if there's any laws that exist in the southern states back in the wild west days that permitted the killing of Mexicans or Indians on certain days.

- N

Republicans created the illegal immigration problem by their compaign to destroy labor unions, and labor laws here. If workers were organized, then illegals could never work here, and they wouldn't come over the border.

There would still be the problem of bad guys coming over, though.


So the congress just believes anything that the President tells them?

They had access to the same intelligence as the administration.

No one has access to the same intelligence as the administration. The congress did not hear of the CIA's doubts on the cherry-picked information the administration chose to share. For instance, that the Niger documents showing Iraq's alleged attempt to buy uranium were forgeries. Or, that the administration depended on one unreliable source for most of their info., a guy codenamed "curveball", who the Germans considered a nutcase.

The members of congress trust, to some extent, the office of the president to be truthfull in matters pertaining to war, since they have no way of verifiying the information.


President Bush can't even get a new judge to the Supreme Court without a major, major fight ...if at all.
The latest info is that Roberts will be confirmed easily.

Yes, believe it or not, Spidergoat is 100% correct about why illegals are still ALLOWED and possibly even ENCOURAGED to cross the borders. Cheap labor for BIG BUSINESS, which is backed mainly by REPUBLICANS but also by some Democrats. Repubs aren't big government in some senses, but they are definitely pro-big business. That's where the money is, and thus the power. Therefore, they want and need these illegals to come in and replace well-paid American workers, in order to make more money and get more power. Same reason millions and millions of jobs are being "out-sourced" to India and China, as well as other places like Mexico. Cheap labor, almost slave-labor, no unions, etc. So, the problem is not really the illegals coming across the border, it is our corrupt politicians, who could not "not" tell a lie even if they wanted to. Just watch any interview with any of our politicians and OBSERVE the questions asked and the answers given. Maybe not always lies, but NEVER the whole truth. Arrogance and corruption at it's finest. And reporters are in bed with them too, because they have little real power as reporters any more, so they have to stay on the side of the powerful or they will get canned.

That bitch in jell right now who wouldn't reveal her source (Karl Rove) is being taken care of and will be taken care of once she has served enough time in jail. Just for show.

Fuck Bush, Rove, CHENEY, Rice, McClellan, Frist, Delay, Rehnquist, that douche-bag at Defense (don't want to say his name), and all the powerful fucks behind them in the shadows. They are all corrupt, liars, hypocrites and total scum.

Peace.

I tell you what, why dont you stop buying cheap vegtables and fruit. Demand that they raise the prices so some union guy can make $20/hour (with benfiits too) picking grapes.

All these cheap wages you complain about=Cheap food that you gladly pay for

It is not about BIG BUSINESS. You could at least narrow down the catagories to Agriculture based businesses as they are the ones that use the majority of illegal labor.

You say its about the Republicans?? Which state has the highest amount of illegals?? CALIFORNIA- which is NOT a rebulican state. Who tried to give Illegals drivers license's? The DEMOCRATS. Any attempt to curb illegal immigration in California is BLASTED by those who live in Southern California (Who are DEMOCRATS).

You could raise the price on vegies, but if all American workers were justly compensated, then we could all afford it. In fact it was the increase in the minimum wage that created the middle class here, when some people claimed it would drive companies out of business.

I tell you what, why dont you stop buying cheap vegtables and fruit. Demand that they raise the prices so some union guy can make $20/hour (with benfiits too) picking grapes.

All these cheap wages you complain about=Cheap food that you gladly pay for
You, my friend, are one of the deluded I mentioned. How can you possibly say that anything, especially food, is cheap? Never been higher relative to the inflation rate.



It is not about BIG BUSINESS. You could at least narrow down the catagories to Agriculture based businesses as they are the ones that use the majority of illegal labor. You must be a die-hard republican who, again, is deluded by what you here on CNN or FOX news, or read in the papers. You probably think all those are liberal-biased too. Illegals, and imports from India and China, do much more than pick oranges. So do the people that Wal-mart, Hewlett Packard, GE, etc. hire cheaply overseas.




You say its about the Republicans?? Which state has the highest amount of illegals?? CALIFORNIA- which is NOT a rebulican state. Who tried to give Illegals drivers license's? The DEMOCRATS. Any attempt to curb illegal immigration in California is BLASTED by those who live in Southern California (Who are DEMOCRATS).
Yes, California, and Republicans, are doing a grandiose job of brainwashing and misleading you and the rest of the sheep in America.

Yes, believe it or not, Spidergoat is 100% correct about why illegals are still ALLOWED and possibly even ENCOURAGED to cross the borders. Cheap labor for BIG BUSINESS, which is backed mainly by REPUBLICANS but also by some Democrats. Repubs aren't big government in some senses, but they are definitely pro-big business. That's where the money is, and thus the power. Therefore, they want and need these illegals to come in and replace well-paid American workers, in order to make more money and get more power. Same reason millions and millions of jobs are being "out-sourced" to India and China, as well as other places like Mexico. Cheap labor, almost slave-labor, no unions, etc. So, the problem is not really the illegals coming across the border, it is our corrupt politicians, who could not "not" tell a lie even if they wanted to. Just watch any interview with any of our politicians and OBSERVE the questions asked and the answers given. Maybe not always lies, but NEVER the whole truth. Arrogance and corruption at it's finest. And reporters are in bed with them too, because they have little real power as reporters any more, so they have to stay on the side of the powerful or they will get canned.


Who tried to give Illegals drivers license's? The DEMOCRATS.

Well I admit, what I'm about to say is a lil conspiracy theory that ties into the above quote. But you ask who was the one to give illegal immigrants drivers licences? Well, who was the one to give illegal immigrants work passes? Republicans.

Now for the conspiracy part about big business, republicans, and the like. As the above person mentioned, republicans love immigrants because it results in lower pay so they make more money. Isn't it kinda funny that Bush's immigrant pass came around the same time as the talk of a draft for Iran? What another nice, quick way for big business republicans to make tons of money. While all us high pay wanting, legal citizens of American are drafted (since illegals can't join the military), we get one hell of a population decrease of greedy white people as a result of the insane Iran war. But while all the white people are off dying and fighting in that crazy war, all of a sudden we get a surge of illegal immigrants carrying their job passes to pick up the work that aren't able to be done due to everyone else being in the war. So now a huge chunk of our work force is replaced with cheap labor resulting in a sky-high increase of profits for big business. And even greater due to more factory jobs being created by the war which is easy work, and usually the type of work, that illegal immigrants do. Nice way to get rid of the middle class, eh?

So hey, who knows. That's my lil conspiracy theory made up on the spot. :p

- N

"You, my friend, are one of the deluded I mentioned. How can you possibly say that anything, especially food, is cheap? Never been higher relative to the inflation rate."

Ok. You think food is expensive. So how much more is it going to cost when the labor cost to produce it goes up 500%??

"You could raise the price on vegies, but if all American workers were justly compensated, then we could all afford it"

And how would you pay the salaries for all of these 'justly compensated' workers? Buy rising prices of course which is called ahem, ahem, inflation. So now your justly compensated workers still cannot afford it.

Everytime the minimum wage goes up, prices go up to. For everyone to get paid the same you need communism, which also doesnt work. Hate to break it to you, but there will always be poor people in Capitalism. And in Communism, EVERYONE is poor.

"You, my friend, are one of the deluded I mentioned. How can you possibly say that anything, especially food, is cheap? Never been higher relative to the inflation rate."

Ok. You think food is expensive. So how much more is it going to cost when the labor cost to produce it goes up 500%??


Could be none if the fat rich fucks at the top gave a shit about anybody but themselves and their own pocketbooks. I take it you also still believe that we live in a "fair" capitalist economic system with no price-fixing and/or gouging?

I like these 'rich fat fucks', as you call them. The more they live to excess, the more the rest of us benifit. Everything they buy has to be manufactured somewhere and then it has to be maintained. They have to hire gardeners and caddies and maids and tailors and everything under the sun. They are the ones who pay most of the taxes. They are the ones who have the capital to build factories and corporations and everything else.

Everything they do feeds the rest of us.

They must follow the law like any other citizen of the USA ...no more, no less.
though I agree, I have several problems with people taking things in their hands;
for Vigilantes:
1) what are their motivations?
racist or just sick & tired of the gov doing nothing but yakking

2) what would they do, when confronted by a dangerous situation? shoot first, ask questions later? run?

3) will they work to change US culture & employer pressures to hire the cheapest? problem as I see it is;
we are so focused on deals, we buy the cheapest, creating pressures to downsize, Wal-Martize, send jobs offshore
we have so many people on welfare, that the low pay will not get them off the sofa to fill the ranks of waiters, gardeners, chefs, maids, nannies, why should they as long as we feed them?
because no one is held accountable, the employers that cheat & use illegal help, make more profit, the workers get the short end,
witness California & Prop 72 that was just defeated. it would have forced all employers of over so many employees, to give their part-timers some health care. since the good people of California decided that it was not right for Wal-Mart to be forced to pay for health care for their part-time employees, that leaves them to use Medicare, Medi-Cal when emergencies happen, we all pay then.
I assume that people are more interested in deals, than keeping employers fair. I've worked for many employers that would not let you get over 32 hrs per week, so that they didn't have to get health care for us.

Also, think of Mexicans as on-shore out-sourcing, & Indians & Chinese as off-shore out-sourcing. Don’t like that, stop buying just the cheapest, look for real “Made in the US” stuff & buy it. Harangue your politicians to enact laws to eliminate welfare, subsidies, loopholes & unfair NAFTA, MFN, GATT/WTO or other corporate freebies.

You want to stop Mexicans at the border, send anyone that hires illegals to 20 years hard time, confiscation of assets, use RICO, no mercy, no sob stories, just hard time, should solve the problem post-haste. And stop crying if prices go higher.

Ok, lets say im a rich fat fuck Millionare. I have $1,000,000 to spend on groceries. That sounds like I can help alot of people out. But thats only $100 for 1,000 people. Thats really not alot of groceries for a family of 4. So now im a broke fat fuck and the 1,000 people are still hungry. Instead of me spending that 1,000,000 on groceries, I should instead start a business so I can make more money and at the same time HIRE people so they can buy their own damn groceries.

Bitch about the fat fuck millionares here, but we still have one of the highest standards of living. When was the last time millions of Americans starved to death?
Please go to some 3rd world country and get a reality check.

"witness California & Prop 72 that was just defeated. it would have forced all employers of over so many employees, to give their part-timers some health care. since the good people of California decided that it was not right for Wal-Mart to be forced to pay for health care for their part-time employees, that leaves them to use Medicare, Medi-Cal when emergencies happen, we all pay then.
I assume that people are more interested in deals, than keeping employers fair. I've worked for many employers that would not let you get over 32 hrs per week, so that they didn't have to get health care for us. "

The reason for this is that Heatlh Care costs in California are outragous. Look at the costs of Workers comp and Health insurance in Neveda and you will see why many businesses are leaving California. Its just too damn expensive to do business here. It is not a simple case of "businesses here are a bunch of cheap asses". Blame the insurance industry. Blame the Workers Comp scams. Blame the Illegals who get free health care and stick it to the rest of us. Blame environmental costs. There are many many reasons why....

Ok, lets say im a rich fat fuck Millionare. I have $1,000,000 to spend on groceries. That sounds like I can help alot of people out. But thats only $100 for 1,000 people. Thats really not alot of groceries for a family of 4. So now im a broke fat fuck and the 1,000 people are still hungry. Instead of me spending that 1,000,000 on groceries, I should instead start a business so I can make more money and at the same time HIRE people so they can buy their own damn groceries.

Bitch about the fat fuck millionares here, but we still have one of the highest standards of living. When was the last time millions of Americans starved to death?
Please go to some 3rd world country and get a reality check.

I've spent a lot of time in third world countries, for your information, and to me it sounds like you need the reality check. You make two assumptions here. One, that I am poor because I am too dumb to know better. The second comes in a minute.

First of all, if you take $1,000,000 and you divide it by a 1,000 people, what do you get? Need a remedial math class as well?

Second, you operate under another assumption and that is that those thousand people are morons. Many of them could probably do great things with a thousand dollars, if given the chance. Others might buy groceries, or a new tv, etc. Others might invest or save it. Regardless, whether they spend that $1,000 on one of the above or the other, doesn't matter, it will go a long way towards mended the already shitty relations between the rich and the poor. It will also, most likely, end up right back in the pockets of the rich anyway. How could it not, now that so much is owned by so few?

By the way, I'm not necessarily talking about millionaires. Millionaires are a dime a dozen nowadays. I'm talking about the billionaires who do nothing with their money but make more and more money with it. Who put it to no good use. Who play the stock market as if it were a slot machine. Who wish the peasants would shut up and leave them alone. Who employ cheap slave labor overseas and here in America so that they can squeeze every last penny out of us poor and disenfranchised. Who use people as if they were tools, and when the tool breaks, throw it aside and get a new one.

Why don't you go back to your 151 and get a little crazier. Moron.

so its a thousands buck a person.............. lol
Once again you point out how those families will just spend the money and its GONE. Wereas I propesed that that money would be better spent starting a new business so there would be continous income. That whole teach a man how to fish and he can feed himself thing...

Bitch as much as you want about the Waltons but they have provided Millions of Americans with cheap products and are the largest private employers. At the sacrafice of American jobs in the production sector? Maybe. But once again, if it bothered Americans that much maybe they would pay more money at another store? But they dont.

Well since you have been to 3rd world countries please enlighten us how their standard of living is compared to the U.S.?? I know many poor Americans but they have running water and sewage something most in a 3rd world country cannot claim. I know that raw sewage isnt running down my street. So once again, complain all you want about the Billionares and every other rich person, but these people once again provide the jobs and products that you want. Dont like it? Move to Africa where there are no Billionares.

"Who employ cheap slave labor overseas and here in America so that they can squeeze every last penny out of us poor and disenfranchised. "

And once again, its this cheap labor that lets you get your cheap ass walmart products. This cheap labor INCREASES your spending power. I take it you buy nothing but American products??

so its a thousands buck a person.............. lol Yeah, it's so fucking funny.

Once again you point out how those families will just spend the money and its GONE. Wereas I propesed that that money would be better spent starting a new business so there would be continous income. That whole teach a man how to fish and he can feed himself thing...You sound religious too, to boot. True?


Bitch as much as you want about the Waltons but they have provided Millions of Americans with cheap products and are the largest private employers. At the sacrafice of American jobs in the production sector? Maybe. But once again, if it bothered Americans that much maybe they would pay more money at another store? But they dont.
Some do when it doesn't cost more to go to the next biggest city and spend more on gas than they can afford to get there because Wal-Mart is the only choice in most small cities.


Well since you have been to 3rd world countries please enlighten us how their standard of living is compared to the U.S.?? I know many poor Americans but they have running water and sewage something most in a 3rd world country cannot claim. I know that raw sewage isnt running down my street. Let's take Somalia, for instance. One of our pet projects in the 90's. I was there in '93 for almost 6 months. Should give you a clue about my background. People, almost starved to death, even with the aid we were giving, begged for food and water. Lived in little shacks made of tumbleweeds and old mortar blocks from old russian tank factories. Were so desperate that they would step in front of a 5-ton truck moving at 35-40 mph to take the hit, hoping it would get their families some compensation. (Precursor to suicide bombers perhaps?)

Nonetheless, just because American poor may have a little better conditions, and I'm not saying they do all the time, everything is relative. The greatest pain is physical, sure, but don't underestimate the affect that mental anguish has on a person. Everything is relative.



So once again, complain all you want about the Billionares and every other rich person, but these people once again provide the jobs and products that you want. Increasingly less and less.



Dont like it? Move to Africa where there are no Billionares.
Think there are none in Africa? Check again dumb-ass.



And once again, its this cheap labor that lets you get your cheap ass walmart products. This cheap labor INCREASES your spending power. I take it you buy nothing but American products??

I don't need the INCREASED spending power, you typical American sheep! You make another assumption here, and that is that I buy into your dumb-ass point of view. You think that all of us, like yourself, are only concerned about ourselves. I live without things that people like you consider the norm, like air conditioning in 90-115+ degree F weather for months at a time, because I am tired of being like you idiots. I could spend the money on it, but I am tired of being treated like I need it. I also live on less than $1,000 a month. How much do you live on?

Ahhh good o'l Somalia...
And why are Somalies poor?? is it do to Capitalism?? Walmart?? Or would it happen to be shit bag Warlords??

If you want to live in 100+ degrees with no AC go for it! Its America! Do what you want!
If living in 100+ degrees when you have the ability to live in AC some how makes you think that your are some sort of Ghandi smarti-pants then go right ahead. More power to you. I would say youre a dumbass for sweating your balls off. But hey, what the hell do I know about heat? Its only 115+ out here and im on a tank 24-7. But shit, I guess I better put that in work request for an AC unit.

So just to help you out, I did a little checking on African Billionaires:
3. That right! A whopping 3! But hey youre right they are Billionaires! But wait up...
hold on....
OH! They are all WHITE and are from SOUTH AFRICA! One lives in England! Well sure as shit, that represents AFrica! LOL

So yeah, unless you move to South Africa, there are still no Billionaires... have you packed yet??

And dont lecture me about how im some big consumer, I dont even own a TV so blow it out your ass.

And dont lecture me about how im some big consumer, I dont even own a TV so blow it out your ass.

You wouldn't if you were on a tank 24/7, now would you? Moron.

Cottontop: Sure you would. Many, if not most, servicemen have homes and families stateside even while they are in the ass end of the world getting shot at. They don't just liquidate everything when they go off to do their duty. Moron.

Cockwood, no shit sherlock? I didn't know that. You ever been to the ass end of the world? Ever left comfy little Omaha?

Born in New Jersey, spent some time in Europe during my childhood, back to New Jersey, over to Chicago for most of a decade, then to Omaha to really settle down. Had vacations in both the Caribbean and Australia more recently. Would have gone into the Airforce if it wasn't for a couple damned physical problems.

Howabout you? Been out of West Texas lately? Have you done anything besides making an ass of yourself in the couple months you have graced us with your presence?

Lived in New York for 4 years (U.S. Military Academy at West Point - utter stupidity). Lived in Maine 2 years. Lived in Virginia, New Mexico, Georgia for shorter stints. Like I said before, Somalia for almost six months, Kenya, France, Egypt, Israel, Germany, Puerto Rico. Never been to Mexico though for some reason I can't figure out. Served with the Berlin Brigade in Berlin (6/40th Armor), so I know what it is like to live on an Abrams with no AC. Spent most of my service time at Ft. Hood in Texas.


Have you done anything besides making an ass of yourself in the couple months you have graced us with your presence?

I don't mind being thought of as an ass. Do you? Could be worse descriptions than that of me, if you had half of the pea-brain that even George W. has. Guess we'll have to wait on Genderbender though, if it ever decides to deign us with its presence.

Doesn't sound like you've ever been outside of your comfort zone. Again, ever been to the ass-end of the world?

Those malaria-infested hellholes where the water will turn your entire intestinal tract into a napalm factory? Places where any democratic election in their history, if they have ever had one, has ended in a violent coup? Where it is believed that Western grain is poison and our vaccines render you sterile? Where half of the country wants you shot and kidnapped because you are from America? I haven't had a pleasure.

The third world, in my honest opinion, is the sort of place you should avoid like the plague unless you are there to get something done. It isn't exactly my idea of a good time. Only an idiot repeatedly sticks his hand in a fire when there is absolutely nothing to gain from it.

Thought not.

On the other hand, one could consider a Chicago slum with more wildlife than the amazon rainforest and some really hostile natives to be America's ass-end. The days in a concrete plant that eternally violated safety and work hour regulations was also a nice touch. Not quite on par with some place that has a click and three glottal stops in its name, but it was enough for me to avoid putting my hand in the fire again.

Oh, and drop the dogma.

Sure, for you. No hard feelings here. You?

You? Thought so.