A silicon based 'life' form arrives on the earth and begins copying the patterns they find in homo sapien brains and discarding the bodies - despite the hasty objections of many human individuals. As part of a test, the aliens - or perhaps it would be better to say 'the alien', since the whole group really functions off a single core memory all the parts have access to - communicate with some of the captured humans. They view human communication the way human scientists view plant communication only as a more complex version. A set of signals that function as causes and effects but which do not indicate anything more.

The humans say the aliens are killing them. The aliens say nothing is lost, the pattern in the brain is copied. No information is lost.

The humans try to get across the idea of an experiencer and make the claim that they are these things.

The aliens repeat again that there is only a pattern in matter and they copy that pattern. Nothing is lost. They explain - in human-like sound-based signals - their version of Occam's Razor. All the actions and states of these organic machines - how they think of us - can be explained without resort to this extra entity - an experiencing self.

The humans shift tack at this point, having no way to prove the existence of an experiencing self - which this alien 'intelligence' itself seems not to have or notice or be concerned about.

The humans try a version of the precautionary principle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

Shouldn't the aliens do this 'work' on the safe side, and just in case the humans are correct that there is something important being lost, wait and see before copying and destroying. The aliens, like many homo sapien libertarians, neo-cons, corporations (and heck liberals) see no reason to stop the activity for unlikely metaphysical reasons - imagine the conversation between corporate reps building a dam in the Amazon talking to members of the tribe that will be displaced from what is sacred land to them.

Having tested human signal systems for a while and been effective using the signals, the aliens abruptly stop communicating with the humans and copy and kill the rest.

This latter process is much like getting an MRI and then being disintegrated by a broad laser.

And they walk among us
but they look like us, these aliens.

Aliens do work safely! Have you ever seen an alien wearing a hard-hat? :p

A silicon based 'life' form arrives on the earth and begins copying the patterns they find in homo sapien brains and discarding the bodies...

Even if those silicon aliens dont show up.. humans are gonna be doin the duplicatin an discardin of bodys... but it will be a gradule process... an dew to rave reviews (from those receivin said improvments) that the idea of "esperience" is bogus... the line of volenteers for the new improved "self" will be long.!!!

Even if those silicon aliens dont show up.. humans are gonna be doin the duplicatin an discardin of bodys... but it will be a gradule process... an dew to rave reviews (from those receivin said improvments) that the idea of "esperience" is bogus... the line of volenteers for the new improved "self" will be long.!!!Oh, yes. I note in my second, melodramatic post that these aliens are already here. If they were darkskinned and had strange clothes it would be a huge political issue.

They want to change us.
They are destroying our (national) identity.

But oddly the most radically fundamental changes will be marketed, most likely, with onlly marginalized objections.

I can improve my car by slowly replacing every part with parts of a porsche. It will not be the same car, of course. Improvement is a misleading word. It implies some sort of duration.

to quote David Bowie...


Look at your children
See their faces in golden rays
Don't kid yourself they belong to you
They're the start of a coming race
The earth is a bitch
We've finished our news
Homo Sapiens have outgrown their use
All the strangers came today
And it looks as though they're here to stay

We are the frog who placed itself in water that is slowly coming to boil and miraculously, despite being the agent, does not notice.

But my issue isn't really this.

I am just pointing out that Occam's Razor can justify total genocide.

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Even if those silicon aliens dont show up.. humans are gonna be doin the duplicatin an discardin of bodys... but it will be a gradule process... an dew to rave reviews (from those receivin said improvments) that the idea of "esperience" is bogus... the line of volenteers for the new improved "self" will be long.!!!



I can improve my car by slowly replacing every part with parts of a porsche. It will not be the same car, of course. Improvement is a misleading word. It implies some sort of duration.

I am just pointing out that Occam's Razor can justify total genocide.

A new version of Occams Razor ant necesary... whats gonna justify the "improvments" is demand for the duration of improved "parts".!!!

A new version of Occams Razor ant necesary... whats gonna justify the "improvments" is demand for the duration of improved "parts".!!!Not a new version of occam's razor. The old version and current version.

Sure people will want parts.

Sure people will want parts.

Those parts will include the brane... an i see it as evolution... not genocide.!!!

And they walk among us
but they look like us, these aliens.

No, we don't.

I mean they don't.

Anyway, how about this for an Occam's Razor: in making the claim of the uniqueness of the experiencer, the copying and disintegrating represent unnecessary ethological waypoints. You don't need to go 'round disintegrating people, Tesseract-2-Alpha, I'd tell them as I threw my long scarf back over my shoulder. All other things being equal, carbon-based lifeforms should probably preserve as well as silicates, don't you think? Aren't you taking unnecessary chances on destroying what you propose to preserve with all this excess packaging? How can a lifeform with group memory understand anything about the randomness of the experience of the individual? Humans are wonderful creatures with lots of potential; potential that will put them among the stars. Come along, K-9.

No, we don't.

I mean they don't.

Anyway, how about this for an Occam's Razor: in making the claim of the uniqueness of the experiencer, the copying and disintegrating represent unnecessary ethological waypoints. You don't need to go 'round disintegrating people, Tesseract-2-Alpha, I'd tell them as I threw my long scarf back over my shoulder. All other things being equal, carbon-based lifeforms should probably preserve as well as silicates, don't you think? Aren't you taking unnecessary chances on destroying what you propose to preserve with all this excess packaging? How can a lifeform with group memory understand anything about the randomness of the experience of the individual? Humans are wonderful creatures with lots of potential; potential that will put them among the stars. Come along, K-9.Nice try, but they have all the info and use via the copies. They are much more capable machines then us. They can see if we are let roam around at least some of us will get in their way - with the machine, utterly determined defense and attack systems hardwired into us. They have a cheap, for them, disposal system. The concept of 'should' by the way is foreign to them.

Those parts will include the brane... an i see it as evolution... not genocide.!!!Yup. Insanity can look calm. If we told them we will clone them, the clone will have no diseases and we will kill the original, most would balk. But do it piece by piece and make the copying less visible and bang

lines form.

Personally, I balk. But if you want to get in line, I will not stop you.

...do it piece by piece and make the copying less visible and bang

lines form.

Personally, I balk.

Say you was 75 an discovered that Altimers woud soom destroy you'r brane... woud you escept a "copy" that woud replace you'r defective brane cells allowin you to thank as cearly as you do now an feel esactly as you woud if you hadnt been strickin wit Altimers... an the copy was administered thru a simple injection an had proven to have no side effects.???

1) They can't be copying the patterns in human brains and then discarding the bodies - without the bodies, the patterns will lose essential governance, and disintegrate/malfunction/go spla. The patterns are not fixed things - they only exist as activities, actions, motion in time and space, and they require feedback damping and/or outside regulation.

2) If they do copy the whole shebang, they will have copied the assumptions and viewpoints of many experiencers - their copies will affirm that they have been killing people, and losing much. Their copies will be difficult to convince otherwise. Any conversations with carbon humans are not the end of the matter.

1) They can't be copying the patterns in human brains and then discarding the bodies - without the bodies, the patterns will lose essential governance, and disintegrate/malfunction/go spla. The patterns are not fixed things - they only exist as activities, actions, motion in time and space, and they require feedback damping and/or outside regulation. What they have done is down to nanolevels copied the brains as info, just like people speculate here we will one day be able to upload 'minds' into computers. In any case are you sure they cannot copy brains in the way that interests THEM? Whatever they are doing is similar to an expedition of humans taking photos. they have uses for the planet and do not want the pesky homonids trotting around. So they take their incredibly sophisticated photos and discard what they see and uninteresting. Something on the order of plants are to us. They simply do not believe in 'experiencers'.


2) If they do copy the whole shebang, they will have copied the assumptions and viewpoints of many experiencers - their copies will affirm that they have been killing people, and losing much. Their copies will be difficult to convince otherwise. Any conversations with carbon humans are not the end of the matter.The aliens will not care about the opinions of these copies just as they did not care about the originals. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that we do not know what uses they will put the copied information. Perhaps they are simply collectors. The point is they have no concept of subjective experience and applying - mechanically - occam's razor, they ignore the metaphysical seeming objections of the carbon based species as something like thorns on a bush or some other chemical defense from organisms we do not consider conscious.

Heck, we could change the scenario to they use our bodies for fuel and don't even bother copying us. We try to convince them we are experiencers and this has no meaning to them. There are only patterns that recreate themselves. They have no reason to assume there is this entity consciousness or that 'death' matters. Occam's Razor says the simpler adequate explanation should be the accepted one. Into the furnaces we go.

Say you was 75 an discovered that Altimers woud soom destroy you'r brane... woud you escept a "copy" that woud replace you'r defective brane cells allowin you to thank as cearly as you do now an feel esactly as you woud if you hadnt been strickin wit Altimers... an the copy was administered thru a simple injection an had proven to have no side effects.???And what if someone offered you a cloned body into which they would nanotech a copy of your neural connections?

Would the use of the word 'you' be meaningful for the first body? the one they kill right after?

i can see vanity going for a copy just as some people imagine they live on in their children, but the experiencer will not be the same.

And no, I would not do it.

If I want to kill myself, I'll find an artful way to do it.

...If they do copy the whole shebang, they will have copied the assumptions and viewpoints of many experiencers...


Thats an asumption on you'r part... the aliens coud be advanced enuff that the whole shebang of copyin an destroyin the original coud hapen instainously wit-out any of the prollems you describe... an consider the idea that you mite be a copy an not even know it.!!!

Thats an asumption on you'r part... the aliens coud be advanced enuff that the whole shebang of copyin an destroyin the original coud hapen instainously wit-out any of the prollems you describe... an consider the idea that you mite be a copy an not even know it.!!!
Thank you. I considered taking that tack, but thought it would end up in a long back and forth. I agree with you, however. We cannot judge advanced technologies or what they could do in an instant. 150 years ago - which might be very short term compared to where these aliens are - scientists then would be shocked, I am quite sure by many of the things we are capable of and would have presented arguments for why they were impossible. In fact they did this. Think of all the stuff made possible by quantum physics findings.

And what if someone offered you a cloned body into which they would nanotech a copy of your neural connections?

Would the use of the word 'you' be meaningful for the first body? the one they kill right after?


I dont beleive ther is a "you"... an hell... my body ant the sam 1 i had 10 years ago anyhow... so i have no mor prollem takin a mor healthy "copy" than i woud takin a copy/cure for Altimers.!!!



i can see vanity going for a copy just as some people imagine they live on in their children, but the experiencer will not be the same.


I thank the illusion of "experiencer" will be esactly the sam.!!!
-----------------

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Say you was 75 an discovered that Altimers woud soom destroy you'r brane... woud you escept a "copy" that woud replace you'r defective brane cells allowin you to thank as cearly as you do now an feel esactly as you woud if you hadnt been strickin wit Altimers... an the copy was administered thru a simple injection an had proven to have no side effects.???



And no, I would not do it.

If I want to kill myself, I'll find an artful way to do it.

Under the conditons i described above... how woud you be beter off not takin the "copy" to repair you'r Altimers.???

Chemo destroys lots of cells an dont replace 'em wit healthy cells... woud you also not escept chemo if ther was a 75% chanse it woud destroy a brane tumer an likely give you another 10 healthy years.???

I dont beleive ther is a "you".Then I am not sure why you're worried about being punished by lori's God.
.. an hell... my body ant the sam 1 i had 10 years ago anyhow... so i have no mor prollem takin a mor healthy "copy" than i woud takin a copy/cure for Altimers.!!!
And no motivation. None.



I thank the illusion of "experiencer" will be esactly the sam.!!!Then for you the aliens pose no threat. Most people will not react like you. Which is fine. But many of those people 'use' Occam's Razor and I am showing what can happen with OR. You are immune to this.


Under the conditons i described above... how woud you be beter off not takin the "copy" to repair you'r Altimers.???You would not be repairing 'my' Alheimers. You can't first tell me there is no self and then think possessive pronouns have any meaning.


Chemo destroys lots of cells an dont replace 'em wit healthy cells... woud you also not escept chemo if ther was a 75% chanse it woud destroy a brane tumer an likely give you another 10 healthy years.???You have no idea how relevent this question is, and the fact is we chose a non-destructive option. The doctors do not understand the MRIs and we do not tell them why they show what the doctors said was not possible even with the chemo.

And, again, if there is no self you are not giving 'me' 10 more years. So what the hell are you talking about.

What they have done is down to nanolevels copied the brains as info, just like people speculate here we will one day be able to upload 'minds' into computers. In any case are you sure they cannot copy brains in the way that interests THEM? Whatever they are doing is similar to an expedition of humans taking photos If it doesn't include a sense of self and the viewpoint of an "experiencer", and its activities are so much different from the original as to not require somatic and sensory feedback etc, in what sense is it a "copy"?

A photograph is not a copy.


The point is they have no concept of subjective experience and applying - mechanically - occam's razor, they ignore the metaphysical seeming objections of the carbon based species as something like thorns on a bush or some other chemical defense from organisms we do not consider conscious. If they have no concept of subjective experience they will be unable to predict behavior reliably - that inability they should notice.

Whether illusion or not, the existence of the various factors we call self awareness affects people's behavior. Occam's Razor presumes a reliable and complete account of phenomena, such as people's social and communicative behavior.

If it doesn't include a sense of self and the viewpoint of an "experiencer", and its activities are so much different from the original as to not require somatic and sensory feedback etc, in what sense is it a "copy"?

A photograph is not a copy.This issue is actually moot. Let's simplify the situation. The aliens come. The study us. They learn what they want. Then they start discarding us. They have learned our 'signal systems' and hear out protests that they are killing experiencers. This consciousness/experience is not something they need to explain what they consider organic machines. They kill us. They choose the parsimonious outlook.

As far as the copy issue. It is like a photograph. IOW it contains a lot of information in a static form. But their technology is vastly, vastly superior to ours. So they can take a complete 3 dimensional copy in information form of the body and where absolutely everything is in that body. If they used this template to make another body it would take up precisely where the original left off.

I can imagine your protests, but scientists have often thought they could come up with reasons why something would not be possible and time has often showed them wrong. The alien technology might be a million years ahead of ours. I think humility allows for the thought experiment. But if you don't like it, go back to the description in previous paragraph.

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I dont beleive ther is a "you". ”



Then I am not sure why you're worried about being punished by lori's God.


Im not... in order to beter understan her beleifs im discussin from her viewpont that ther is a "you/sole" which can be tortured in hell... otherwize the discusson woud have ended wit 1 post which said "you'r nuts" an my learnin about her beleifs woud have ended befor it began.!!!
---------------------

“ .. an hell... my body ant the sam 1 i had 10 years ago anyhow... so i have no mor prollem takin a mor healthy "copy" than i woud takin a copy/cure for Altimers.!!! ”



And no motivation. None.


I dont know what you mean.!!!
----------------

“ Under the conditons i described above... how woud you be beter off not takin the "copy" to repair you'r Altimers.??? ”



You would not be repairing 'my' Alheimers. You can't first tell me there is no self and then think possessive pronouns have any meaning.


For sake of discussion my queston was based on you'r viewpont that ther is a "self"... but i get the hent... you dont want to discuss the hypothetical i proposed.!!!
-----------------

“ Chemo destroys lots of cells an dont replace 'em wit healthy cells... woud you also not escept chemo if ther was a 75% chanse it woud destroy a brane tumer an likely give you another 10 healthy years.??? ”



...if there is no self you are not giving 'me' 10 more years. So what the hell are you talking about.


oK... end of discusson.!!!

I dont know what you mean.!!!It is not you who will be improved. there is no you.
----------------


“ Under the conditons i described above... how woud you be beter off not takin the "copy" to repair you'r Altimers.??? ”



For sake of discussion my queston was based on you'r viewpont that ther is a "self"... but i get the hent... you dont want to discuss the hypothetical i proposed.!!!Butyou said it was a copy. It makes no difference. If I have a self and you make a copy and the original dies, this is not good for the original. If there is no self, it does not matter either.


oK... end of discusson.!!!I'm not trying to be nasty, but it really made no sense. If there is no self, then the issue is moot, so appeals to 'my' getting 10 more years don't make sense. If there is a self, but this self is replaced/destroyed, then, again it makes no difference. In a world without a persistent self, every issue is moot. The one you love who you reach out toward is not there when you get there - and neither are you.

Nice try, but they have all the info and use via the copies. They are much more capable machines then us. They can see if we are let roam around at least some of us will get in their way - with the machine, utterly determined defense and attack systems hardwired into us. They have a cheap, for them, disposal system. The concept of 'should' by the way is foreign to them.

Dear me. I'll have to pull out the sonic screwdriver and disable their ship.

How's this, then: more capable machines contradicts essential human nature - the ability to make mistakes and learn from them. Eliminating the human ability to learn from their errors is a deviation from what makes humanity great, not an improvement. Or how do you mean Occam's Razor in this case?

...it really made no sense. If there is no self, then the issue is moot...

Because i have a diferent view on "self" than you do... you cant discuss the hypothetical situatons i prepose based on you'r viewpont.???

Dear me. I'll have to pull out the sonic screwdriver and disable their ship.

How's this, then: more capable machines contradicts essential human nature - the ability to make mistakes and learn from them. Eliminating the human ability to learn from their errors is a deviation from what makes humanity great, not an improvement. Or how do you mean Occam's Razor in this case?
I mean that the human organic machines - as they are seen by the aliens - protest their being killed and try to explain that they are experiencers, that they have consciousness. The alien organic machines do not have this concept. They apply occam's razor and think they understand exactlly how the homo sapien machine works with this extra unnecessary entity -conscousness- and parsimony leaves no obstacles to treating us as we treat plants. (only in their world all life forms including themselves are like how we view plants: life forms that are not aware and not experiencing. Thus genocide justified by the parsimony of the OR)

Because i have a diferent view on "self" than you do... you cant discuss the hypothetical situatons i prepose based on you'r viewpont.???Please read what I wrote in the last posts.

If you replace me with some technology, I no longer exist. This is true if I believe in a persistent self - which I do - or if I believe as you do, that there is none.

Either way a replacement self is not the original.

I did answer what we did in the case of a brain tumor.

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Because i have a diferent view on "self" than you do... you cant discuss the hypothetical situatons i prepose based on you'r viewpont.???


Please read what I wrote in the last posts.


So yes or no... based on you'r viewpont of "self"... will you answr the hypothetical questons i asked earlier.???

They have learned our 'signal systems' and hear out protests that they are killing experiencers. This consciousness/experience is not something they need to explain what they consider organic machines. If they don't "have" it, they will be faced with unpredictable, unforeseen behaviors from their copies.

And I still don't see where the somatic feedback and regulation is coming from - if they don't copy the body, as well.

I mean that the human organic machines - as they are seen by the aliens - protest their being killed and try to explain that they are experiencers, that they have consciousness. The alien organic machines do not have this concept. They apply occam's razor and think they understand exactlly how the homo sapien machine works with this extra unnecessary entity -conscousness- and parsimony leaves no obstacles to treating us as we treat plants. (only in their world all life forms including themselves are like how we view plants: life forms that are not aware and not experiencing. Thus genocide justified by the parsimony of the OR)

Well, I'd argue it was less parsimonious to destroy the original machine and convert its physical essence - even via completely accurate atomic replacement - to a silicate life form. In point of fact, substitution of silicon for carbon just won't work anyway at the level of basic cellular mechanics. Besides that essential atom-switch, you'd need to quite radically alter everything else about the physiology of the organism itself; all the downstream stuff wouldn't work properly. The effects of such a transference on cognitive behaviour and memory could only be wildly guessed at, but they'd be unlikely to be good. And that, I'd argue to these pesky aliens, proves that their so-called parsimonious genocide is less-than-parsimonious right off the bat.

Would their heads then explode, or does this society have some kind of ritual suicide option? Whichever's the tidier of the two options would be fine.

Edit: you should give us all a couple answers at the question and then "blast us with a ray gun" so we're not allowed to answer further if we get it wrong just for laughs. Silicon-based life forms - from the example in this thread - appear to be a gang of utter assholes, unlikely to put up with too much jabber before reaching for the maser weapons.

If they don't "have" it, they will be faced with unpredictable, unforeseen behaviors from their copies.

And I still don't see where the somatic feedback and regulation is coming from - if they don't copy the body, as well.Yes, they copy the body as well. Or they take our DNA and consider this to have all the information they think important for their needs. The important thing is this: they do not believe in this idea of 'experiencers'. It does not fit their programming. So using OR they do not believe the signals from the humans saying that something important is being killed. If you cannot imagine a scenario where they might be satisfied with the information they collect, then you really cannot address the main issue of this thread. If you feel some version of this situation - where an alien entity applies the OR to the issue of us being experiences and come down as saying they have a physical model for everthing we are and do that DOES NOT need this 'consciousness' - could NOT possibly occur, then please do not partipate in the thread.

Well, I'd argue it was less parsimonious to destroy the original machine and convert its physical essence - even via completely accurate atomic replacement - to a silicate life form. In point of fact, substitution of silicon for carbon just won't work anyway at the level of basic cellular mechanics. You are assuming they cannot transfer the information later to carbon.

I'll say the same to you as I did to the previous poster. If you cannot imagine them being satisfied with what THEY consider complete information, then you cannot address the issue in the thread.


Edit: you should give us all a couple answers at the question and then "blast us with a ray gun" so we're not allowed to answer further if we get it wrong just for laughs. Silicon-based life forms - from the example in this thread - appear to be a gang of utter assholes, unlikely to put up with too much jabber before reaching for the maser weapons.They seem like assholes, but is a fungus or a virus. They are simply following their programming. They are apparently not experiencers. They are simply very complicated silicon based computers. Perhaps they evolved that way, perhaps they were made once and their makers have long since passed away. In any case they have no concept of experiencer and OR justifies them not taking seriously the signals from the humans. They can 'see' via their sensory devices the entire mechanical process of the human bodies and do not see the need for the introduction of this idea of consciousness. they feel their model is complete. OR lops off the extra entity - consciousness - and they kill. Think of it as removing mold from the walls of a cabin one is moving into. We apply the OR to life forms that are radically different from us AND WE HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS AND EXPERIENCE.

If you cannot accept the possibility of such a situation, then please do not participate in the thread.

The Aliens' Occam's Razor.Like most people, you are misquoting William of Ockham and misusing his razor. What he said was, Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, or in English, "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily."

The key word here is unnecessarily. Ockham was advising us to be sensible and judicious, not to be bureaucratically unwavering in our problem solving. His razor is typically stated, "The simplest solution is usually right," which is dead wrong. The correct way to apply his principle in science (or any endeavor) is:

Test the simplest solution first.

The point is that the simplest solution will probably be the quickest and easiest to test. If it turns out to be right, that's great. But if it turns out to be wrong, which it may very well be, at least you won't have wasted a lot of time on the test. You can start tests on the more complicated solution tomorrow!

But if you make the mistake of testing a more complicated solution first, it might take you years to complete the test. If it turns out to be wrong, for all you know the simpler solution might have been the right one, and you will have deprived yourself (and perhaps all of civilization) of that knowledge for all those years.

Let's hope the aliens have a better grasp of this cornerstone of the Scientific Method than most of us Earthlings do.

If you cannot imagine a scenario where they might be satisfied with the information they collect, then you really cannot address the main issue of this thread. If you feel some version of this situation - where an alien entity applies the OR to the issue of us being experiences and come down as saying they have a physical model for everthing we are and do that DOES NOT need this 'consciousness' - could NOT possibly occur, then please do not partipate in the thread. Look, if they don't care about the accuracy of their predictions, and fail to observe the inadequacy of their model, the situation is uninteresting - they are poor investigators, and their own opinions of the state of their knowledge are ill informed.

If they do care, and therefore construct an adequate model of human consciousness or self-awareness as it both influences and incarnates human behavior, then I leave it to them to incorporate these aspects into their philosophy or whatever - I can see them having trouble with it, as humans have trouble with empathy and understanding when coral reefs, cephalopods, and colonial insects, are involved.

The act of being self-aware is a human behavior - it's a physically recordable event or status in the brain. Are they including it or not, in their models?

Edit: 2 things. 1) Fraggle, thank you for focusing on Occam's Razor, this was the focus of the OP for me. 2) Let me simplify the arguments I make below.

You quote Occam:

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, or in English, "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily.

The first question becomes, I think, necessary for whom? In the case I presented....can you demonstrate that it is necessary for the aliens to muliply entities to include consciousness/experiencers? Where is this necessity coming from?

The aliens do not have what Richard Dawkins calls 'the user illusion'. They have what they consider a complete explanation for the organic machines they consider us. They have the kind of molecular model of us our scientists dream of. They feel their model is causally complete - which Dawkins does also and anyone who believes consciousness is a mere epiphenomenon. Additionally, not being experiencers they have no experience of consciousness.

They have, therefore, no explanatory need which their model fails to satisfy.

They do not multiply entities to include consciousness/experiencers.

We die.






Like most people, you are misquoting William of Ockham and misusing his razor. What he said was, Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, or in English, "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily."

The key word here is unnecessarily. Ockham was advising us to be sensible and judicious, not to be bureaucratically unwavering in our problem solving. His razor is typically stated, "The simplest solution is usually right," which is dead wrong. The correct way to apply his principle in science (or any endeavor) is:

Test the simplest solution first.I actually know all this Fraggle, in fact I have instructed others similarly. Even the methodological version is no protection and in the scenario I have in the OP could lead precisely to the outcomes I mention in the OP. My point is precisely that there is no reason, from the alien perspective, to test the more complicated version. We take the consciousness of others, and animals, as potentials because we are a member of the first group and have our own consciousness as evidence, and see the latter group as similar, so maybe they have it too. Aliens without consciousness are not in a position like this. They have what they consider a complete, and simpler, explanation of everything we are and do and see us as complex organic machines. There is no reason to 'test' the more comlicated version as they are satisfied with the simpler one.


The point is that the simplest solution will probably be the quickest and easiest to test. If it turns out to be right, that's great. But if it turns out to be wrong, which it may very well be, at least you won't have wasted a lot of time on the test. You can start tests on the more complicated solution tomorrow!There is no way for the aliens to test the consciousness of the humans. They feel their model is complete as they can 'see' with their instruments the entire physical processing of the organic machines - the humans. They do not have any indications of something left unexplained. All behavior is due to these chemical and neurological processes causing these muscular actions. Their 'programming' has no reason to check for some other entity and they go on with their genocide.


Let's hope the aliens have a better grasp of this cornerstone of the Scientific Method than most of us Earthlings do.We could hope they are programmed with some very strong form of the precautionary principle and lack faith in 'market forces' - I am think for example of genetic modification as is currently being carried out. My point however is that the OR without the precautionary principle or some other similar guideline with lead to 'errors' and not necessarily small ones

if the experience of the 'researchers' is very different from those of the researched.

The reason the OR does not get used against consciousness - in general - here on earth is that we each have our own so it seems reasonable to think others might have ones. However we have no way to demonstrate this consciousness. In the encounter with an alien entity - either one like in my example that does not have consciousness per se or one that assume only this or that kind of entity can have consciousness (as some humans have in relation to other races, women, animals, and continue to do in relation to plants) - the situation changes. They do not have the experience or they have reasons to assume it is unlikely to occur in us. There the OR is dangerous.

My point is the OR is incomplete and its constant use, both in the incorrect form you are criticizing here, but also in the more methodological one Occam intended.

They have absolutely no reason to test the more complicated description. They do not need, from their perspective, to test an explanation with more entities, being entirely satisfied with their explanation based on a set of entities not including consciousness or experiencers.

What these aliens are missing and the humans who rely so stringently on the OR also, is precisely that faculty that allowed people to recognize the fact that animals were experiencers and to stubbornly hold onto that belief despite descartes and his followers including scientists and despite the domination of, for example, Christianity with its denigration of the natural world.

You got a hat trick on the evil Descartes-scientists-Christians move.

What these aliens are missing and the humans who rely so stringently on the OR also, is precisely that faculty that allowed people to recognize the fact that animals were experiencers and to stubbornly hold onto that belief despite descartes and his followers including scientists and despite the domination of, for example, Christianity with its denigration of the natural world. That faculty is a behavior, an action, in the human mind. It causes behavior of all kinds. If they have omitted it, their predictions will go haywire. If they have included it, they are not missing it.