I have absolutely no knowledge of the French Revolution (I suspect there were more than one), but it's interesting to see many French words when I was taught American history. Laize Fare (sp?)...detente...and intrapreneur sounds French, but dictionary.com doesn't give it's origins.

My question is did the French Revolution even contribute to American politics or government at all? If so, how much of what came out of the revolution came to America...was it a big deal to American government or just these few words came out of it? If not, then where did these pretty significant words come from...maybe a French philosopher?

thanks for even looking at this...so much crap lately in Free Thoughts; I'd really like to see what your guys' takes are on this.

I'd actually surmise that it was more likely to be the other way around. France had sent troops to aid the Americans during the American revolution, and those troops would certainly have talked about what they saw in America when they arrived home. While discontent in France had been fermenting for quite some time, the spread of ideas regarding a republic, freedom, equal represetation and taxation etc. can hardly have been forgotten by those returning soldiers. The Bourgeosie had already been introduced to the ideas of Roussou and Voltaire, but to see a political system arise which actually appeared to be the embodiment of those ideas surely had a more stimulating effect. For a nation living under a despotic monarchy, taxed to the eyeballs and already having festered under these conditions for some time, the new America must have seemed ideal.

Originally posted by grazzhoppa
I have absolutely no knowledge of the French Revolution (I suspect there were more than one) [...]
I have neither... In fact I know my history but I was not very good at school (in history). There were some revolutions if you want, but the most important one was the first revolution of 1789. (what happened during the next years was not the best part of our history!)

Laize Fare (sp?)...detente...and intrapreneur sounds French, but dictionary.com doesn't give it's origins.
Sounds like "Laisser faire" (Let do - may have been used for us about Saddam), "détente" (going to peaceful state of mind, but that's also the thing that you press on a gun to shoot) and "entrepreneur" (a "contractor" ?).

My question is did the French Revolution even contribute to American politics or government at all? If so, how much of what came out of the revolution came to America...was it a big deal to American government or just these few words came out of it? If not, then where did these pretty significant words come from...maybe a French philosopher?
The French Revolution contributed to lots of governments as it was the first big revolution. However the French didn't contribute DIRECTLY to the American Politic (or maybe some influences...).
I disagree with The Marquis about his theory! The soldiers may have been interested by the US "freedom" but I guess it had no consequences in France. The soldiers were fighting the English for their king. They didn't have a good education (not at all) and they were used to live with a king. The French Revolution began because of (thanks to) the lake of food, the taxes, Rousseau... You can be sure that the American "democracy" was not known by the majority of the French while they were thinking about their revolution.

About the words : Louisiana, french immigrants... I don't know why you use these words.

A French economist called JB Say is thought to be the first to use the term entrepreneur around 1800, although its origins are in the Old French via latin for enterprise.

The other words, detente and laissez-faire appear to be derived from normal french verbs.

As for how they came into American usage I don't know. Perhaps if you look at a map of the early 18th century you will see how widepsread French influence was in America at that time, greater in land terms than the British possibly. It is not hard to imagine that expressions relating to freedom, and strife between rival parties (as in liberty - another Old French word, itself derived from latin libertas) should be the ones on the lips of those talking about revolution. It is possible perhaps that these became often-used terms, and settled into the language then, at a time of great upheaval, rather than more prosaic ones - as in the french for, say, cart horse, whatever that might be.

But I wouldn't take any of that for fact, it depends when these terms were first used, and in what context, but it is a possible answer. It is equally as likely they arrived via the British, as for several centuries french was the preferered language of the literate English, whose own language was considered vulgar by comparison. Many french words settled into common english usage. It is possible these terms became common then, and passed into America that way. They could of course, as in entrepreneur, be much later - detente I think may even have been coined as late as the 1960s or 1970s in reference to USA-Soviet relations, though it might well have been used previously for all I know. I hope someone who really knows can give you a definitive answer.

Originally posted by SG-N
I disagree with The Marquis about his theory! The soldiers may have been interested by the US "freedom" but I guess it had no consequences in France. The soldiers were fighting the English for their king. They didn't have a good education (not at all) and they were used to live with a king. The French Revolution began because of (thanks to) the lake of food, the taxes, Rousseau... You can be sure that the American "democracy" was not known by the majority of the French while they were thinking about their revolution.

So, SG-N, you assume that because people are uneducated they don't talk, and that the news coming from the American war had no effect upon the bourgeouis? You seriously don't think that seeing the ideas presented by philosophers become reality had no impact whatsoever? I think this is a little short sighted of you. I didn't say that the American revolution caused the French one, but I do believe that seeing the Americans doing something about their position may have helped influence the French to also take action... and this thread was begun with someone asking the question about external influences on politics and government.

Do you really believe that the bourgeouis wanted to do the revolution? In general, they were living from the taxes too and they would not have expected a better life after the king's death. Those who wanted some changes were the poor peoples (not all) and some philosophers. I already gave some of the reasons : a big lake of food, too much taxes and too much wars. The soldiers you were dealing with were generaly on boats and those who were on the american ground were only fighting the English... not dealing with the future US constitution. They didn't care about your politic.

Of course some of them talked about it in France, but the un-educated people were used to their system, and even if they thought about USA, it was not the beginning of the revolution. Was it a factor of it? Now, with the media influence, it could be! But in 1780's I guess it was not (foreign policy was not really their favorite topic while they were looking for food or working 18h/day).

Anyway, if they would have want a real freedom country, they would not have made the next government (worse than with a king).

blocalsteve:

<i>The other words, detente and laissez-faire appear to be derived from normal french verbs. As for how they came into American usage I don't know. ...</i>

Er... I believe Americans speak a form of English, so there's a hint. :)

Originally posted by James R
Er... I believe Americans speak a form of English, so there's a hint. :)

Maybe I'm being as thick as a plank here - but what is your point? Americans generally do indeed speak a form of english, but not a form of french. Grazzhoppa was asking how these particular french words came to be widely used in the USA. Words from one language don't usually magically appear in someone else's language without a reason, which is, I think, the point he was making.

A term like detente, once it becomes widely used - as in the cold war, is often taken up and used within other languages and often gets applied to events of a similar nature in the past. So it can be hard to say exactly from where and when they came, which was my point.

Can you...er... hint any louder, without the...er... pauses?;)

Hmm.. SG-N I suggest you read up on the tax systems imposed on the bourgeoisie at the time, and then think about why they might have wanted a revolution. The nobility were exempt from all taxes, and the bourgeoisie were not. The reformation of the french political system into something more closely resembling a republic (although the initial revolution did not achieve this) could only have economically benefited the middle classes, and they already harboured ill-feeling towards the ruling classes. With the American revolution over, they finally had a political system to compare France to without turning to those of Britain or other European nations.

In addition, the armies sent to America were not entirely composed of peasants. Many of the soldiers sent were actually members of the bourgeoisie themselves, and were not the illiterate peasants you seem to believe them to have been.

We also have to keep in mind that the "French Revolution" as such, was actually more a drawn out thing than an overnight change. The storming of the Bastille in 1789 was an event occuring only a few years after the end of the American revolution, which resulted in a reformed American government around 1784. The returning soldiers from America were not "still on boats", they were home and talking. This would not have been a catalyst for the revolution in itself, but certainly would have given the discontented another nation to look at and compare.

This "first" revolution resulted in far more power being passed to the Bourgeoisie and peasant landowners but failed to improve the lot of the peasants and workers overly much.

Lastly, I am not American.

blocalsteve:

America was settled by both the English and the French. France and England have always had cross-language polination, so there are many French expressions which have been adopted into English. Most English in the United States is adopted directly from British English. Since British English includes French expressions, so does American English.

It is also possible that certain phrases went straight from French into American English, but in the specific cases here I don't think that's what happened.

My not-so-subtle point above is that America did not develop English. Funnily, enough, the English did it themselves and then exported it to the Americas.

Great stuff guys. This is the type of stuff they don't teach in (lower)schools, the subtle connections of language and politics and nations.

So the French Revolution actually came after the American Revolution? That's what I got from this

Posted by Marquis: The storming of the Bastille in 1789 was an event occuring only a few years after the end of the American revolution, which resulted in a reformed American government around 1784

How did the Bastille event bring about the reform of American government?

Also, I was watching TV late one night and there was reference to the French Revolution about how they let out all their prisioners, even the murders....it was French-bashing joke. Is that what the storming of the Bastille was? The people must have absolutely hated their ruler considering they released all criminals convicted under the ruler's court.

Posted by blocalsteve: Grazzhoppa was asking how these particular french words came to be widely used in the USA
It's interesting to see how such major policies in American government get their names from the French words. I didn't think Nixon picked "dentente" as the name of his policy because it sounded cool. There must have been some history behind that word, and the French Revolution was a place to start, I thought.


from laissez-faire.org (http://www.laissez-faire.org/lfprimer.html) Laissez-faire - or "hands-off" - capitalism first appeared in the realm of political philosophy as a backlash against the mercantilist policies of European governments in the 18th century
What a simple site name :) . Anyway, was France under this mercantilist policy with their ruler in the 1700's?

That same site cites that French philosophers were the first to make a complete theory around a laissez-faire economy. So that's where the word comes from. But how did it end up tied in with American government? The founding fathers of the constitution took notice of these philosophers' theory? And maybe if France was under a mercantilist economy, the laissez-faire theory was part of the revolution. And that would connect American government to the word, and the word connected to the French Revolution...so the American government would share something with the revolution.

ugh, 2:30am. my eyes are probably looking like this --> :eek:

Grazzhoppa:


The storming of the Bastille in 1789 was an event occuring only a few years after the end of the American revolution, which resulted in a reformed American government around 1784


How did the Bastille event bring about the reform of American government?

Bad wording perhaps. The American revolution resulted in a reformed american goverment, not the storming of the Bastille.

*edit - and that's terrible wording too. The American revolution resulted in an American government, period. It wasn't "reformed" at all.*

The storming of the Bastille occured in 1789. The American war of independance was essentially over in 1783. That's 6 years in which the French soldiers who had fought in America had time to get home and think about the differences between France and America, and spread the ideas they encountered there. Ideas which had already seen some daylight in French thinkers of the time, and fermented by the increasingly-educated Bourgeouise. Seeing those ideas practically applied in another nation might have influenced the thought that they could achieve something similar themselves.

On a side note, the idea of a "Lassaiz-Faire" economy was indeed around and talked about before 1789. This is why I noted that the Bourgeouise would not have been entirely opposed to the thought of a revolution ridding them of a controlling aristocracy and ruling class.

The Marquis

The returning soldiers from America were not "still on boats", they were home and talking.I didn't said that! I said that a part of them fought on the boats. But anyway that's not a problem...

Lastly, I am not American.Ooops, sorry! :p

On a side note, the idea of a "Lassaiz-Faire" economy was indeed around and talked about before 1789. This is why I noted that the Bourgeouise would not have been entirely opposed to the thought of a revolution ridding them of a controlling aristocracy and ruling class.That's right.


grazzhoppa

Also, I was watching TV late one night and there was reference to the French Revolution about how they let out all their prisioners, even the murders....it was French-bashing joke. Is that what the storming of the Bastille was? The people must have absolutely hated their ruler considering they released all criminals convicted under the ruler's court.In fact the storming of the Bastille occured July,14th 1789 (our national day). It was more than a jail : it was a political prison and a fortified "castle" in which there were lots of weapons.
The Bastille was mainly controled by the king, not by a ruler's court.

America was settled by both the English and the French.

That’s what I said.


France and England have always had cross-language polination, so there are many French expressions which have been adopted into English.

And that.



It is also possible that certain phrases went straight from French into American English, but in the specific cases here I don't think that's what happened.

And that. Yet entrepreneur clearly did as it didn’t exist as such before 1800, and I think laissez-faire was a term coined by physiocrats, which if true, would suggest that too came into America without the help of the British. It is not unreasonable to suggest that French terms such as these would have been used also by the colonial French, and therefore ‘skipped’ the British straight into American usage.



Most English in the United States is adopted directly from British English. Since British English includes French expressions, so does American English.

A point that I made also, however you cannot just assume that to be the case for this reason – French words that have come into British English usage and have been there for a long time tend to become anglicised, oboe for example is surely an anglicised version of haut bois. And you see Americanisation of French words going on now, as in voila which appears to be becoming waa-lar from what I have seen of some Americans speaking and posting on the net.

In other words, over a period of time (centuries) well-used words tend often to lose the inflexion that betrays their origin, and with it the original spelling. Therefore you can’t simply say that such specific and obviously still very French expressions were already part of the English language when they arrived in America. They might have been, but it doesn’t look like the case with at least two out of three of grazzhoppa’s examples.

It is easy to say French expressions are embedded into the English language without coming up with any examples that are dateable to before the mid-18th century to prove it. I think, but I don't know, that most popular French phrases that are used in America today are too recent to have arrived with the British. And it seems likely with the climate of revolution and enlightenment happening variously in France, England and America, that those and other expressions relating to politics and economics arrived simultaneously in both Britain and America.



My not-so-subtle point above is that America did not develop English. Funnily, enough, the English did it themselves and then exported it to the Americas.

Oh I seeeee … sorry, but your point was lost on me because the sarcasm masked its simplistic and inaccurate assumption that Americans use French words such as laissez-faire because they got them via the English.

blocalsteve:

It's good to see we understand each other now. :)

Are you kidding? How about modern political classifications. "Left Wing" and "Right Wing" ring a bell? You see in their house the liberals occupied the left part of the building while the conservatives occupied the right. France has always been more influencial than the US would ever give it credit for being.