I would like proponents of the Great Flood to post their evidence here for further discussion. (No Bible quotes, preferrably -- but who am I to tell you what to post ;))

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I am; therefore I think.

For what it`s worth.
Not only Christianity, but almost all world religions and ancient civilizations have a deluge as a one of the central themes in their creation epics or religious literature. And in most cases this deluge was a Divine act of punishment against the sins of mankind.
From South and North America to Africa to the East to the Middle East as well as Europe and Australasia. It certainly indicates that somewhere in mankind`s distant past there was an apocolyptic flood that has been retained in their histories.
There is also geological evidence to support a global deluge, although I`m not 100% sure of the dating.

As for myself I prescribe to a literal Biblical Flood to which the Gospels bear witness. (oops sorry)

In Christ.

There was something on The Discovery channel about "the great flood", but according to that all that was flooded was the mediterranean.
Also the great piramids and they sphinx display evidence of being flooded according to some geologists.
If there really was a worldwide flood, where do all the animal species that exsist today come from? You don't honestly believe that 2 of EVERY species was put in a boat and released after the flood.

Regards,
Gerard Saraber

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"Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
-- Ambasador Delenn of the Minbari

If there was something that can be compared with a "global flood" then it must have been the melting of the ice the last Ice Age, huge landmasses were covered with water again. Depending on the speed of the melting, it could have been perceived as a cataclismic event.

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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

Legends do not always reflect reality in an obvious way. For example, all anscient cultures exhibited beliefs to the effect that various natural phenomena are manifestations of divine powers. Why such commonality among widely dispersed peoples? Obviously not because these beliefs actually reflected reality; instead, various anthropological factors come into play. As another example, all human languages share the same mathematical structure. This merely reflects that all our brains are structured similarly, and tend to think in similar ways. Finally, I doubt very much that even a majority (over 50%) of all world religions share a flood legend; of course on that particular point I may be proven wrong if you can indicate quantitative evidence to the contrary.

Because of the many anthropological variables and tendencies involved, one cannot rely on mere legend for description of actual events; that is why I asked for no quotations from holy sources. Rather, what I am looking for is tangible, empirical evidence.

Now, it is true that great catastrophies had occurred on Earth. From massive volcanic explosions, including the possible disappearance of Atlantis -- to earthquake- or asteroid-induced massive tsunamis, to maybe extraordinary solar events, to who knows what else. However, according to the Bible only one such massive catastrophy has happened in recent history, and it was a flood.

I am not aware of world-wide evidence pointing to an all-encompassing deluge that occurred everywhere at the same time. There is the theory of a Mediterranean flood, there is evidence elsewhere of high water levels, there is indisputable evidence of glacial cycles, but these events do not agree in date, severity or duration. Certainly, I have seen nothing to indicate that a majority of Earth's landmass was ever submerged all at once, especially in recent history. In addition to the obvious abundance of species on the planet, lack of geological evidence or of a possible source and destination of all that extra water argue strongly against that particular Biblical story.

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited September 10, 1999).]

Miztic,

The Egyptian monuments do not display evidence of being flooded. Rather, they display evidence of streaming (flowing) water on them. Such evidence points to the fact that Egypt once had a more moderate climate with plentiful rain, and that its climate must have changed since then to make it into the dry desert that it is today. If the Egyptian monuments were indeed flooded, then the water would not have carved stream beds on them (which, by the way, takes quite a few years of even hard rain); rather they would be covered with sea deposits, coral, etc.

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited September 10, 1999).]

Plato,

There is just no way the glaciers could melt so quickly as to submerge land before people or animals could get to the safety of higher ground. Furthermore, the majority of Earth's glaciers have not melted in millions of years, as evidenced by the astonishingly anscient ice in Antarctica. So I have a very hard time believing that water levels were ever a great deal higher than they are today (maybe a few dozen meters higher, but even that's stretching it.) The water levels were certainly once a lot lower than today, and probably will be again when the next Ice Age arrives -- because much of the water that is currently liquid will get deposited as ice onto land.

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I am; therefore I think.

Boris,
what you are saying is the most popular theory yes, there was a discovery program that touched this subject, two geologists argued that the water-wear patterns on the sfinx indicate being submerged in water, not being rained on, they argued that rain would leave a different pattern of wear on the sfinx, since I am nowhere near a geologist I can only relay what I remember from the program.

btw. a sfinx being flooded by no means proves a global flood.
I also don't believe in the global flood in recent history because, like you say the abundance of land-based species.

Regards,
Gerard Saraber

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"Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
-- Ambasador Delenn of the Minbari

Boris

You have a very good argument. Some interesting reading on Flood historicity in ancient cultures and Religions can be found in "Fingerprints of the Gods" by Graham Hancock - published May 1996. The Flood is not the central theme of this book however, but in any event it is a facinating read on ancient Egyptian culture and the pyramids.

I will swot up on the geological evidence however and see what I come up with.

In Christ.

Boris,

I am aware that Ice can't melt that fast to create something as a tidal floodwave but I heard this theory that the Canadian Hudson Bay area used to be a huge glassier. When it began to melt the sea street was still blocked with ice. So there was something like an enormous amount of sweet water contained behind some kind of ice berg (??) that prevented the water from flowing into the Atlantic. When it eventually broke down the coasts of Western Europe, West Afrika and perhaps North America were flooded and the overall sea level rised with several meters.
Again this is just a theory that I heard on tv, can't even remember the program...

Plato,

You know, I just checked out the elevation map of North America, and it really does look like a big sea of water could have been locked up around the Hudson bay. Sounds very plausible.

Though, I have doubts about the magnitude of such an event. The original glaciers were kilometers high, and thus were able to lock up a lot of water. However, the landmasses around Hudson Bay do nor rise nearly so tall above sea level; they would not be able to contain all of the water from the melting glaciers. Even fancifully speaking, suppose the landmasses to the south, east and west could support a lake with a mean depth above sea level of, say, 200 meters, and mean diameter of, say, 2000 kilometers (making for surface area of roughly 13,000,000 km^2). The Earth's oceans occupy roughly 2/3 of the surface, thus having a total surface of about 340,000,000 km^2. This means that if the confined sea spilled into the oceans, the global surface levels would rise by about 200*13/340 = ~8 m. Hardly a catastrophic event, especially considering that the present huge landmasses represent the areas <u>after</u> the flood.

So, this scenario definitely does not provide for a flood that submerges even minor hills, not to mention mountains. Moreover, such a flood would be permanent, and would not recede. And, even here the discharge could not have been so quick as to cause large tidal waves; it would probably have happened over the course of days (if not longer).

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I am; therefore I think.

I hate to stand merely on a citation, but I think in order to keep it relatively short, I would like to mention that Robert J. Wenke, an Anthropologist at the University of Washington, compares the Noah story of Genesis with Babylonian cuneiform bearing an identical story; the Babylonian version happens to be older than Judaism itself.

Just thought I'd throw that in.

thx,
Tiassa

Wenke, Robert J. "Patterns in Prehistory: Humankind's first three million years". 3rd ed. New York: Oxford University Press, 1990.


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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

Miztic,
It was Adam West who brought it to the worlds attention that the sphynx had been rained on and showed evidence of severe weather patterns corresponding to the claim. Since the pattern was that caused by rain it threw an horrific realisation to the Egyptian curators there because it meant the sphynx could be up to 20,000 years old. This, of course, shoots down all that the Egyptians hold true to their archeological claims and beliefs. It was the underground caverns that the middle egyptians had dug that were full of water. These were pumped out before they dould go down into them.
BTW... I found it typical of the arrogance of the Egyptian archeologists that they didn't bother clearing the only tunnel of importance - the one that led directly under the Sphynx!! So bloody typical!!!

Boris,
I'll dig up that stuff I read about - all the listings of evidence pointing to the Flood - and get it to you.
Do you still want that ghost footage?
Regards,
Dave.

nik
hi.i think the flood did exist. in fact i think that a flood takes place every time that the planet Nibiru comes close to the earth. Nibiru,aka the 12th planet,is much larger than earth and comes around every 3600 years.when it comes by,its gravitational force pulls on the oceans (like the moon does) and the tectonic plates.it also cracks up the north and south pole glaciers which causes the fairly quick flooding.check out Sitchins books........nik

nik,

You and Sitchin should do a little thinking about orbital dynamics. If such a large gravitational disturbance affected Earth every 3600 years, Earth's orbit would be far from a near circle, be totally unlike the orbits of either Mars or Venus, and probably lay out of the plane of ecliptic. Not to mention that the Antarctica glaciers are much older than 3600 years. Damn... doesn't physics suck?

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited September 29, 1999).]

good point,
but the 12th planet,on its return orbit to the solar system affects all the planets,(because its coming from an opposite direction,and goes by all of them)so they are all pulled just a little about the same.the centrifugal force of the planets and the gravety from the sun holds every thing together and the 12th planet's forces are not strong enough disrupt anything severely.regarding the glaciers being older than 3600 years,i'll attribute that to human error and miscalculation.i trust all of the evidence from the sumerians,the bible,the maya,and the egyptians (where lately they have found that the pyramids where under water about 3600 years ago)over our sientists today.thanx.........nik

nik,

First of all if such a large object exists, you say it is much heavier then the earth and it has an orbital period of 3600 years then this would have been shown as distortions on the other planets. Did you know that Pluto was found because of slight distortions measured on Uranus and Neptune ? And Pluto is much smaller then the earth and has a far less elliptical orbit then anything you are talking about.
Secondly to have an object passing by EVERY SINGLE other planet on a regular basis is just plain impossible !! Do you have any idea how warped that orbit would look like if say Earth and Venus are at right angles to each other and Mercury is somewhere at the same line with Earth, not to speak of the other six planets. Besides any distortion on a planet like Mercury would have a much larger impact then on Jupiter which is about 2000 times larger !
Face it, there is no tenth, no eleventh and certainly no twelfth planet ! Lets take the modern definition for planets please and exclude the Sun (which is a star) and the Moon (which is of course a moon).

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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

Not to mention that the ice age is determined very simply by counting layers. Just as you can count the rings in a tree cross-section to determine that tree's age, so you can count the visible yearly deposits in the ice sheet to count the glacier's age.

Besides, you KNOW Plato is right. So much for cheap science fiction...

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I am; therefore I think.

i got a little screwd up about the astronomy stuff,its not really my strong point.its hard for me to explain the rotation of the 12th planet but it is in opposite rotation and apparently goes between jupiter and the astroid belt (on the outside of mars).it would be easier to draw a picture,its in the book.also,the orbit of the 12th planet is wide and could verywell colide with any of the planets.the astroid belt between jupiter and mars was apparently the other half of earth when it got hit my the planet.i dont know if youve heard how the shape of earth without the oceans is pretty messed up on the pacific ocean side -like more flat.anyway,im getting off topic.back to floods.

i have seen research on the glaciers and ice flows in the north and south pole.one show i saw showed how they recovered a b-29 bomber from ww2 that landed in the arctic.it stayed there and was snowed on for 50 years.it was 100ft under the snow/ice(in 1990)they dug down and pulled it out,in pieces.so in 50 years it snowed 100ft., average 2 ft per year which over 3600 years =7200ft thick. thats about right.so how can anyone say that the arctic or whatever,has been there for a million years?i think thats bogus.also,who defines what a flood is,like how deep the waters got to be?the pyramids could have been under for a short time and not grown coral or barnacles on them.who gets to define how long a flood has to last for it to be a flood?if there was a major flood and it lasted 40 days(in noahs case),then isnt it possible that at the poles it snowed a crap load to build up the glaciers again and cause the flooding to eventually cease?just ideas here,i dont know what really happened and either do any of you.it sucks,i wish we all knew.all i know is that a lot can happen in 3600 years.it doesnt take millions.

nik,

If the mysterious planet in question passed between Mars and Jupiter, it would not cause any visible tidal effects on Earth, even if it *was* the size of Jupiter (though a body this size would have wreaked havok on the asteroid belt...) So let's just drop this wondering planet issue; it's obviously a cooky idea to begin with, even before one examines the details.

As for the dating of ices... I went and looked for a website you could read for a brief overview of methods used, the logic that suggests such methods, and the results obtained. I indeed found one <A HREF="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html">over here</A>. But it turns out that the whole website is a pretty awesome in-depth examination of creationist/Biblical claims and experimental evidence with which they conflict. There even are reviews of creationist attempts to reconcile their religion with fact, and all the shortcomings of these attempts. They even have links to websites and articles by creationists debating the issues.

From what I've seen, I highly recommend the website as a reference to anybody in this forum. The url is <A HREF="http://www.talkorigins.org/">http://www.talkorigins.org/</A>. Enjoy!

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited September 30, 1999).]

boris,
thanx,i'll look into that site.i havent actually measured glaicers,i dont have a ruler that long, but ill check it out. but i dont see why a large planet going the OPPOSITE direction between mars and jupiter would not have an affect on earth. i dont know if youre a scientist or not, but going the OPPOSITE direction would double the velocity and/or force.mars looks pretty messed up,maybe it was from that planet,maybe we just get a little action here.i dont want you to think i like floods or that i want the earth to get destroyed,its just that there are a few ancient civilizations,the bible and a few modern findings that say this theory "could be" possible.im not giving up on this "cooky" idea.theres nothing else this credible.how come all you do is put down others ideas?dont you have your own theory,or share one?.........nik

nik,

Well, I do have my own theory: the Flood never happened, and the Bible is full of it.

I put down theories which are obviously faulty -- obviously even to me (and I am not even a graduate student yet...)

The direction of motion of a body has absolutely no effect upon its gravitational field. Whether your purported planet flies along the ecliptic or orthogonal to it, clockwise or counterclockwise -- bears no significance for the strength of its instantaneous interaction with other bodies. The orbit, however, certainly has a bearing upon the duration of such interactions. Thus, for example, if it flew counter to the orbital motion of the planets, it would pass them faster, and hence would actually have <u>less</u> of an overall perturbative effect.

Next, you seem to be oblivious of the scales involved. Earth and Mars are approximately 48,000,000 miles apart even on their closest approach! In comparison, the Moon is only about 240,000 mi from Earth. Now, the Moon is approximately 100 times lighter than Earth. And suppose your rogue planet is 1000 times heavier than Earth (that's Jupiter's weight!) Now, we all know Newton's law of gravitation, F = G*(m1*m2)/(d^2) where F is the gravitational force, G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses involved, and d is the distance between them. Since G is the same for any pair of bodies, let's ignore it. Let's calculate the relative gravitational force between Earth and the Moon (taking Moon's mass to be 1, G = 1, and using the distance in miles): F = 100*1/(240,000^2) = 1.7*E-9. Now, let's calculate the relative gravitational force during closest approach between Earth and the mystery planet located roughly at Mars orbit: F = 100*100,000/(48,000,000^2) = 4.3E-9. As you can see, even a Jupiter-sized body located near Mars orbit during closest approach to Earth, would have about the same gravitational influence on Earth as the Moon does. And even that figure is only a maximum during closest approach; in fact most of the time the rogue planet is likely to be somewhere on the other side of the Sun, greatly increasing the distance and becoming nearly undetectable gravitationally! And even that's only assuming the mystery planet to be of Jupiter's size, which is just plain ridiculous!

Not to mention that the rogue planet, no matter what its orbit, is like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole of the Solar system orbital dynamics -- no matter how you twist or turn it, it won't go in.

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I am; therefore I think.

o.k.

The flood and other Bible stories seem to be based on far older Sumerian writing. The flood may have occured farther back then we know and the evidence is too deep to find now. The Hebrews could have copied the story and gave it a moral twist from what actually happened. The orbit given for the Twelfth planet, in the book, is the very same constellations Halley's Comet passed through in 1986. Stichin may have come across the ealier sightings of the comet and said it was a planet as they may not have said what it was back then. Check the NASA handbook for Halley's Comet for 1986 and see for yourself.

Here's a recent pro-flood article
http://www.sltrib.com/1999/oct/10031999/nation_w/34059.htm

Only a couple of remarks today about the flood article:

7600 years ago? That's a little too early for Noah; I might remind you that the Earth is, by Biblical standards, about a millennium too young. From the Hebrews up through Renaissance Catholics, the theological age of the world has been set at approximately 6000 years old, recognizing a start date of 4004 BCE. I must omit non-Abramic dates here, as I know very less than I would like about Chinese or South American creation myths.

However, as I posted before, tales of the flood exist before the rise of the Hebrew tribes. Specifically, there is Sumerian cuneiform recounting a similar tale, which outdates the Old Testament by "thousands of years" (cit. Wenke, Robert J.; ref. to my 9/15 post).

Specifically, I have no doubt that there were several floods which lent their experience to human myth. But the existence of a flood within two or three millennia of Noah's alleged journey still proves only one thing: that there was a flood. What we take from that is our own, I suppose.

thx,
Tiassa

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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

Not to mention that the Black Sea is not even in the right location. (unless the anscient Jews used to live north of Turkey?!) Not to mention that this particular flood did not come through rain.

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 04, 1999).]

I read a story once (not trying to say this is true) that theorized that perhaps it wasn't animals that was saved in the flood.

This story was that there was a flood, that was threatening the wild plants that the people lived off of. So they made the intuitional leap to harvest seeds from each of the plants, then climbed to higher ground to wait out the flood. After the flood, they were able to re-seed their foodsource from the salvaged seeds. Interesting theory, no? I think the bible is so twisted and changed from all the multiple translations and such, why couldn't this be a valid possibility? Agriculture did have to develop somehow...somebody was the first. And I find the idea of a tribe carrying of sacks of seeds much more likely than a boat carrying 2 of each kind of species.

Just a little humor...

If Noah lived In the United States Today:

And the Lord spoke to Noah and said, "In one year, I am going to make it rain and cover the whole earth with water until all flesh is destroyed. But, I want you to save the righteous people and two of every kind of living thing on the earth. Therefore, I am commanding you to build an "Ark".

In a flash of lightening, God delivered the specifications for an Ark. In fear and trembling, Noah took the plans and agreed to build the Ark.

"Remember, "said the Lord, "you must complete the Ark and bring everything aboard in one year."

Exactly on year later, fierce storm clouds covered the earth and all the seas of the earth went into a tumult. The Lord saw that Noah was sitting in his front yard weeping. "Noah," He shouted, "Where is the Ark?"

"Lord, please forgive me!" cried Noah, "I did my best, but there were big problems. First, I had to get a permit for construction and your plans did not meet the codes. I had to hire an engineering firm and redraw the plans.

Then I got into a fight with OSHA over whether or not the Ark needed a sprinkler system and flotation devices. Then my neighbors objected, claiming I was violating zoning ordinances by building the Ark in my
front yard, so I had to get a variance from the city planning commission.

Then I had problems getting enough wood for the Ark, because there was a ban on cutting trees to protect the Spotted Owl. I finally convinced the U.S. Forest Service that I needed the wood to save the owls.

However, the Fish and Wildlife Service won't let me catch any owls. So, no owls.

The carpenters formed a union and went out on strike. I had to negotiate a settlement with the National Labor Relations Board before anyone would pick up a saw or a hammer. Now I have 16 carpenters on the Ark, but still no owls.

When I started rounding up the other animals, I got sued by an animal rights group. They objected to me only taking two of each kind aboard.

Just when I got the suit dismissed, the EPA notified me that I could not complete the Ark without filing an environmental impact statement on your proposed flood. They didn't take very kindly to the idea that they had no jurisdiction over the conduct of the Creator of the Universe.

Then the Army Engineers demanded a map of the proposed new flood plain. I sent them a globe.

Right now, I am trying to resolve a complaint filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission that I am practicing
discrimination by not taking godless, unbelieving people aboard.

The IRS has seized my assets, claiming that I'm building the Ark in preparation to flee the country to avoid paying taxes.

I just got a notice from the state that I owe them some kind of user tax and failed to register the Ark as a "recreational watercraft".

Finally, the ACLU got the courts to issue an injuction against further construction of the Ark, saying that since God is flooding the earth, it is a religious event and therefore unconstitutional.

I really don't think I can finish the Ark for another five or six years," Noah wailed.

The sky began to clear, the sun began to shine and the seas began to calm. A rainbow arched across the sky. Noah looked up hopefully. "You mean You are not going to destroy the earth, Lord?"

"No," said the Lord, sadly, "I don't have to. The government already has!"