I received the following in an email. If you run in to the controversy, now you know what that is all about.

The Penguin Group has published a book titled, “The Hindus-An Alternative History” by a professor of religions at Chicago University by name Wendy Doniger. This book contains not only many factual errors in Indian history but also misrepresents the beliefs, traditions and interpretations of a whole people.


SCANDALOUS cover jacket of the book - copy for ready reference at http://www.scribd.com/doc/26565460/Scan-0002


“The Hindus: An Alternative History” is rife with numerous errors in its historical facts and Sanskrit translations. These errors and misrepresentations are bound and perhaps intended to mislead students of Indian and Hindu history.

Throughout the book, Doniger analyzes revered Hindu Gods and Goddess using her widely discredited psychosexual Freudian theories that modern, humanistic psychology has deemed limiting. These interpretations are presented as hard facts and not as speculations. Doniger makes various faulty assumptions about the tradition in order to arrive at her particular spin. In the process, the beliefs, traditions and interpretations of practicing Hindus are simply ignored or bypassed without the unsuspecting reader knowing this to be the case. This kind of Western scholarship has been criticized as Orientalism and Eurocentrism. The non Judeo-Christian faith gets used to dish out voyeurism and the tradition gets eroticized.

A. FACTUAL ERRORS

The following are a just a SMALL SAMPLING of examples of the factual errors that run rampant through this disgusting book. By due diligence that is badly overdue from your editors, you can either find for yourself, or we will be glad to direct you to, scholarly references so that you can verify these errors yourself and withdraw this obscenity.

[Page number precedes a reference to inaccurate statements in the book. This is followed by a comment citing verifiable facts.]

Maps in front pages: Maps titled ‘India’s Geographical Features’ and ‘India from 600 CE to 1600 CE’
COMMENT: In the first map, the Waziristan Hills area is marked erroneously as ‘Kirthar Range’. The Kirthar Range is at least 200 miles further south. In the third map, Janakpur, Nagarkot, Mandu and Haldighati are marked several hundred miles from their correct geographical location.

Pg. 67 - It is claimed that the entire Harappan culture had a population of 40,000!
COMMENT: This is estimated as the population of Mohenjo-Daro alone. The population of the entire culture is estimated around 500,000.

Pg 112 - Wheat is mentioned as a food item in the Rigvedic period.
COMMENT: Wheat is not mentioned in the Rigveda at all. It first occurs in the Maitrayani Samhita of the Yajurveda.

Pg 130 - The author claims that there are no Gods in the Vedas who are Shudras.
COMMENT: It is anachronistic to assign castes to Rigvedic deities, but nevertheless, Pushan, Vesmapati and others have been considered Shudra deities in later times.

Pg 194 fn.- Gandhi’s commentary on the Gita (a sacred Hindu scripture) was titled ’Asakti Yoga’ (translated as ‘the science of deep attachment’).
COMMENT: The title of Gandhi’s work is ’Anasakti Yoga’ (trans. ‘Science of non-Attachment’).

Pg 206 - The book wrongly states that the Hindus had only a triad of passions.
COMMENT: Hindu scriptures list six main evils and the concept of shadripus (six internal enemies) is very well known.

Pg 441 - The book claims that Firoz Shah redeemed a number of Hindu slaves…
COMMENT: A misrepresentation of the fact that he employed (not ‘redeemed’) 12,000 of his 180,000 slaves forcibly in royal factories for producing articles of consumption by Muslim elites. No “manumission” was involved.

Pg 445 - Dates of Saint Kabir are given as 1450 – 1498.
COMMENT: His demise is believed to have occurred in 1518, and the traditional date of birth is 1398.

Pg 448 - In 713 Muhammad ibn Qasim invaded Sind.
COMMENT: Muhammad bin Qasim invaded Sind in 711.

Pg 450- It is claimed that Emperor Ala-ud-Din Khalji did not sack temples in Devagiri.
COMMENT: His contemporary Amir Khusro clearly mentions that the Emperor sacked numerous temples and raised mosques instead.

Pg 459 - King Ala-ud-din Husain of Bengal patronized Saint Chaitanya.
COMMENT: Saint Chaitanya never met the king, and left his kingdom to avoid persecution, as did his disciples. The king had destroyed Hindu temples in Orissa.

Pg 532 - Emperor Akbar moved his capital from Fatehpur Sikri to Delhi in 1586.
COMMENT: Emperor Akbar moved his capital to Lahore in 1587, and thereafter to Agra.

Pg 537-8 - The Sikh teacher Guru Govind Singh was assassinated in 1708, while ’attending Emperor Aurangzeb’. Emperor Aurangzeb died in 1707.
COMMENT: Guru Gobind Singh was assassinated in 1708 during the reign of Aurangzeb’s successor, Emperor Bahadur Shah I. It is insulting to say that the Guru was ‘attending’ on the Emperor.

Pg 550 - The book claims that Mirabai lived from 1498-1597, and then on p. 568, the author claims that Mirabai lived from 1450-1525!
COMMENT: Both dates are wrong and the commonly accepted dates are 1498-1547.

Pg 552 - The book claims that the Ramcharitmanas was written at Varanasi.
COMMENT: Both modern scholarship as well as tradition accept that the work (or at least most of it) was written in Ayodhya.

Section on Bibliography: “Shekhawat, V. “Origin and Structure of purushartha Theory: An attempt at Critical Appraisal.” Journal of Indian Council of Philosophical Research 7:1 (1900), 63-67.”
COMMENT:The correct issue and year of this Journal issue are actually 8:2 and 1991. The bibliography has dozens of errors. Some references cited by Doniger simply do not exist.

B. DEROGATORY, DEFAMATORY AND OFFENSIVE STATEMENTS

Clumsily written, each chapter is a shocking and appalling series of anecdotes which denigrate, distort and misrepresent Hinduism and the history of India and Hindus. Doniger uses selective quotations from obscure and non-original, peripheral and ignorant references with a bizarre emphasis on sexuality and eroticism. Cited below are only a handful of quotes along with our understanding and interpretation, with references from Hindu scripture.

[Page number precedes the quote from the book. This is followed by a rebuttal comment.]

Pg 40 – “If the motto of Watergate was ‘Follow the money’, the motto of the history of Hinduism could well be ‘Follow the monkey’ or, more often ‘Follow the horse’.”
COMMENT: Very derogatory and offensive. The motto of Hinduism is to follow the truth and unite with God.

Pg 112 - The author alleges that in Rigveda 10.62, it is implied that a woman may find her own brother in her bed!
COMMENT: The hymn has no such suggestion. It is offensive to suggest that the sacred text of Hindus has kinky sex in it.

Pg 128 - The book likens the Vedic devotee worshipping different Vedic deities to a lying and a philandering boyfriend cheating on his girlfriend(s).
COMMENT: This is offensive and ignores that fact that in the Rigveda, the gods are said to be all united, born of one another, and from the same source.

Pg 225 -“Dasharatha’s son is certainly ‘lustful’... Rama knows all too well what people said about Dasharatha; when Lakshmana learns that Rama has been exiled, he says, “The king is perverse, old, and addicted to sex, driven by lust (2.18.3)”
COMMENT: Sri Rama is revered and worshipped as a deity. The highly acclaimed and critical edition of Valmiki’s Ramayana records no such statement attributed to Lakshmana. An imagined phrase, ’kama-sakta’ is mistranslated as ’addicted to sex’ by the author whereas it normally means ‘filled with desires’. Valmiki uses a phrase ’samani-madhah’ (trans. Possessed of passion).

Pg 467 - Harihara and Bukka (the founders of the Vijayanagara Empire that saved Hindu culture in S India) ‘double-crossed’ the Delhi Sultan when they reconverted to Hinduism.
COMMENT: The brothers committed apostasy as they had been imprisoned and forcibly converted to Islam, and immediately reverted to Hinduism when they were 1000 miles from the Sultan, under the influence of a Hindu ascetic.

Pg 468-469 -“…The mosque, whose serene calligraphic and geometric contrasts with the perpetual motion of the figures depicted on the temple, makes a stand against the chaos of India, creating enforced vacuums that India cannot rush into with all its monkeys and peoples and colors and the smells of the bazaar…”

COMMENT: It is simply unacceptable that a scholar can flippantly, pejoratively and derogatorily essentialize the Hindus as “monkeys and peoples, colors and smells.., and chaos” in most insulting manner with the aspersion thrown at the entire Hindu culture and community all over the world. Such generalization has no place in serious scholarly work.

Pg 509 - ”Shankara and the philosopher’s wife…This tale contrasts sex and renunciation in such a way that the renunciant philosopher is able to have his cake and eat it, to triumph not only in the world of the mind (in which, before this episode begins, he wins a series of debates against the nonrenouncing male Mimamsa philosopher) but in the world of the body, represented by the philosopher’s wife (not to mention the harem women who clearly prefer Shankara to the king in bed).” The author attributes the tale to Shankaradigvijaya of Madhava and to Ravichandra’s commentary on Amarushataka.

COMMENT: The author concocts the story as a sexual orgy in which the Saint Adi Shankara and King Amruka take turns making love to the latter’s wives after he is tired. Both her sources however state that the King was already dead and the Saint transferred his soul into the dead King’s body through his yogic powers. There is no suggestion in the texts that the queens ‘prefer Shankara to the king in bed’.

Pg 571- It is alleged that in a hymn from Saint Kshetrayya’s poetry, ‘God rapes’ the women devotees.

COMMENT: The hymn merely presents devotion using spiritual metaphors and the hymns of the Saint seen collectively depict it as a passionate love affair between the God and the devotees. No rape is implied in this hymn at all.

Again, the above is simply a sampling of the scandalous and offensive statements in the book. By her own admission in the book, Doniger has no credentials as a historian and the title of the book is misleading as the book is not on the “History nor an Alternative History” of India. This shows that the author is not an authority on the subject as she is not able to understand the deep meaning of Sanskrit verses or Indian Concepts. These cast serious doubts about the author’s integrity as a researcher and ability to interpret accurately. Additional examples of the author’s shoddy scholarship will be made available upon request.

We emphasize that this defamatory book misinforms readers about the history of Hindu civilization, its cultures and traditions. The book promotes prejudices and biases against Hindus. Can Penguin’s editors really be incompetent enough to have allowed this to pass to publication? If this is not deliberate malice, Penguin must act now in good faith.

The book promotes prejudices and biases against Hindus.Who would do this? Who hates Hindus? Americans love them, although most Americans think Hinduism and Buddhism are the same thing. Ever since the Beatles got their own guru, I haven't heard anyone say anything derogatory about Hinduism.

Is it the Muslims? There has been a lot of Hindu/Muslim violence in India, culminating in the partitioning of Pakistan. They've continued to make war, on and off, as separate countries.

Is it the Buddhists? The majority population in Sri Lanka is Buddhist and the Tamil Tigers who claim to have been treated unfairly are Hindus, right?

I received the following in an email. If you run in to the controversy, now you know what that is all about.

I still don't know what this is about. If you say the email is correct I will take your word for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
I did not think there was any such thing as Chicago University. She is at the University of Chicago.

The Author is presented as if she is a Western expert on Hinduism. Christians often don't like what scholars of Christianity write but that does not mean that the scholars are wrong. I am sure Eurocentrism is alive and well in Western academia and is still responsible for distortions of history but I don't know if that applies in this case. Some of those quotes from the book do seem ridiculously insensitive and therefore racism should be suspected.


I Don't like the University of Chicago because of the damage that their economics department has done.

From Wikipedia


Doniger was born in New York City to immigrant non-observant Jewish parents, and raised in Great Neck NY, where her father, Lester L Doniger (1909-1971), ran a publishing business. While in high school, she studied dance under George Balanchine and Martha Graham. She graduated summa cum laude from Radcliffe College in 1962, and received her M.A. from Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Sciences in June 1963. She next studied in India in 1963-64 with a 12-month Junior Fellowship from the American Institute of Indian Studies. She received her first Ph.D., in Sanskrit and Indian Studies, from Harvard University in June 1968; and her second, a D. Phil. in Oriental Studies from Oxford University, in February 1973. She has since been awarded six honorary doctorates.[4]

Doniger holds Mircea Eliade's chair at the University of Chicago, and has served on the editorial board of History of Religions since 1979, as well as editing a dozen other publications over her lifetime. In 1984 she was elected President of the American Academy of Religion, and in 1997 President of the Association for Asian Studies. She serves on the International Editorial Board of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

In June 2000, she was awarded the PEN Oakland/Josephine Miles Literary Award for excellence in multi-cultural literature, non-fiction, for Splitting the Difference; and in October, 2002, the Rose Mary Crawshay prize from the British Academy, for the best book about English literature written by a woman, for The Bedtrick. The American Academy of Religion awarded her the 2008 Martin E. Marty Award for the Public Understanding of Religion.
[edit] Reception

Since she began writing in the 1960s, Doniger's work both in Hinduism and other fields has been well received by many in the academic community. Her books are positively reviewed by many Indian scholars such as Vijia Nagarajan[5] and some American Hindu scholars such as Lindsey B. Harlan, who noted as part of a positive review that "Doniger's agenda is her desire to rescue the comparative project from the jaws of certain proponents of postmodernism".[6] Of her Hindu Myths: A Sourcebook Translated from the Sanskrit, Indologist Richard Gombrich wrote: "Intellectually, it is a triumph..."[7] Gombrich called Doniger's Asceticism and Eroticism in the Mythology of Siva "Learned and exciting".[8] Doniger's Rigveda, a translation of 108 hymns selected from the canon

Doesn't sound like the profile of an anti Hindu racist or somebody who would pander to unconscious racist stupidity but you never know.

This is more BS from the Saffron brigade.

[COLOR="Blue"]

Pg 40 – “If the motto of Watergate was ‘Follow the money’, the motto of the history of Hinduism could well be ‘Follow the monkey’ or, more often ‘Follow the horse’.”
COMMENT: Very derogatory and offensive. The motto of Hinduism is to follow the truth and unite with God.




The motto of anyone who buys this book should be "Follow the Donkey"
This person has no respect for the peoples of India and their religions.
If people want to read an account from a Christian or Western Agnostic position, I'm sure they can do better than this.

I don't think it will be appearing in many shop windows in Delhi.

I don't think it will be appearing in many shop windows in Delhi.

If you made it a bet you'd lose, it topped the bestselling list and is on prominent display in every bookstore I've been in the last few months.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/lifestyle-news/books/Top-authors-this-week/Article1-465565.aspx

Don't you understand yet, how Indians think? :D

The monkey refers to Hanuman and the culture of devotion in India, the horse refers to the myth of horse sacrifice and refers to the period of India moving out of the Vedic influence and under the Persian one.

The monkey refers to Hanuman and the culture of devotion in India, the horse refers to the myth of horse sacrifice and refers to the period of India moving out of the Vedic influence and under the Persian one.

What about Donkeys then?

What about Donkeys then?

5000 years of Indian culture, its not hard to cover all the asses- I mean bases

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/prani/animals.htm

I've found out about Donkeys.

The demon Kali was reincarnated as a King.
When he was born he began braying like a donkey, and all the donkeys of the place started braying at once. Quite sinister.

So, the donkey is associated with the nearest thing Hindus have to a Christian Devil.
In Christianity, the donkey is affectionately associated with Christ.
Firstly, Mary and Joseph travelled on Donkeys to Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, and secondly, Jesus travelled on a donkey into Jerusalem, where palms were laid beneath the donkey's feet.

(I'm sure someone will tell me I am completely wrong about this. Go ahead.):)


5000 years of Indian culture.....

Yes, 5000 years of culture.
I bet all the "advanced" Indians will be rejecting it in place of Western materialism.
(I hate modernism)
Would I win my bet this time?

I was a bit annoyed with this American academic.
The quote about the monkeys was a put down I thought, but it's probably a big book and has its faults.
If it has been a number one best seller in India for a year, and no-one is breaking shop windows, it must be pretty good.

Yes, 5000 years of culture.
I bet all the "advanced" Indians will be rejecting it in place of Western materialism.
(I hate modernism)
Would I win my bet this time?


No idea, I don't know any advanced Indians. :p


I was a bit annoyed with this American academic.
The quote about the monkeys was a put down I thought, but it's probably a big book and has its faults.
If it has been a number one best seller in India for a year, and no-one is breaking shop windows, it must be pretty good.

Why be annoyed? As she said, Hindus:an alternative history. Could be's should be's would be's are a part of Indian culture. Who knows what history is, but a narrative of different sutradhars? Why can't she be one as well? :)

No idea, I don't know any advanced Indians. :p


That's good then. Corporate culture is a cancer.
I see you have Barbie now.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:bYbIAv6qbfI33M:http://www.dollsofindia.com/dollsofindiaimages/dolls/indian_barbie_RF04_l.jpg
Indian Barbie

That's good then. Corporate culture is a cancer.
I see you have Barbie now.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:bYbIAv6qbfI33M:http://www.dollsofindia.com/dollsofindiaimages/dolls/indian_barbie_RF04_l.jpg
Indian Barbie

I prefer our delightful bobble dolls, the ones made from papier mache/clay or even our unique cultural dolls (http://www.culturaldolls.com/).

We seem to be drifting from Eastern Philosophy.

I've found out about Donkeys.

The demon Kali was reincarnated as a King.
When he was born he began braying like a donkey, and all the donkeys of the place started braying at once. Quite sinister.

So, the donkey is associated with the nearest thing Hindus have to a Christian Devil.
In Christianity, the donkey is affectionately associated with Christ.
Firstly, Mary and Joseph travelled on Donkeys to Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, and secondly, Jesus travelled on a donkey into Jerusalem, where palms were laid beneath the donkey's feet.

(I'm sure someone will tell me I am completely wrong about this. Go ahead.):)
lol
ok I will make it short
You're wrong




Yes, 5000 years of culture.
I bet all the "advanced" Indians will be rejecting it in place of Western materialism.
(I hate modernism)
Would I win my bet this time?

I was a bit annoyed with this American academic.
The quote about the monkeys was a put down I thought, but it's probably a big book and has its faults.
If it has been a number one best seller in India for a year, and no-one is breaking shop windows, it must be pretty good.
If you've got to literally walk the entire length and breadth of india to find a man who wears a dhoti, it makes you wonder if this is the first time in 5000 years the indians have been mad about some foreign culture.

Have you read this book lg?
What do you think of it?

@Sam. When's the last time you saw someone wearing a Dhoti?
Did your last husband wear one?
Do you wear one?

This is what it says in wapedia

Kali was later incarnated as king Duryodhana, eldest of the one hundred Kaurava brothers. His companion Dvapara became his uncle Sakuni. The day Duryodhana was born, he unleashed a donkey-like scream which the donkeys outside the home replied to. Despite the advise from Vidura to discard the evil baby, Duryodhana's father Dhritarashtra kept the child because demons had received a boon from Shiva that the future king would be invincible.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Kali_(demon)

This is what it says in wapedia

Kali was later incarnated as king Duryodhana, eldest of the one hundred Kaurava brothers. His companion Dvapara became his uncle Sakuni. The day Duryodhana was born, he unleashed a donkey-like scream which the donkeys outside the home replied to. Despite the advise from Vidura to discard the evil baby, Duryodhana's father Dhritarashtra kept the child because demons had received a boon from Shiva that the future king would be invincible.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Kali_(demon)
Donkeys are not associated with the devil (even if you happen to dig up a reference for the Talavana forest).

The asuras (or demons) have an agenda to usurp the position of the devas (or demigods). Part of that included taking birth in aristocratic families on earth (which then became a stage for the conflict).

Donkeys have a host of connotations ... usually that revolve around being thickheaded and sold out to materialism (like for instance getting kicked in the face by the female, bearing incredible burdens for the sake of a handful of grass that can be had anywhere, etc etc)

But as far as jesus riding on a donkey, I understand that it was more a sign of humility and peace (since the trend for a "big man" would have been to dash into town on a horse)

@Sam. When's the last time you saw someone wearing a Dhoti?
Did yourlastex-husband wear one?
Do you wear one?

Today
No
No
:mad:

Do Hindus believe that everything written in their scriptures actually happened, or do they see them as instructive stories?

Today
No
No
:mad:


I've googled Dhotis, and they are all the rage. Dhoti Salwars anyway.
I'm surprised you didn't know SAM.
http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/45333/2890980180101455424S600x600Q85.jpg

Do Hindus believe that everything written in their scriptures actually happened, or do they see them as instructive stories?
some do some don't.

For instance one famous person (ex-prime minister I think) did a commentary on the gita where he was trying to pass of the 5 sons of Pandu as the 5 senses and the field of kuruksetra (where the battle took place) as representative of the body ... and in this way the whole gita was a treatise on health (he had a hobby interest in natural medicine)

Do Hindus believe that everything written in their scriptures actually happened, or do they see them as instructive stories?

Just as Christianity has thousands of denominations each with their version of interpretation, Hindus have many more times....

Most stories are just parables, a teaching tool

But whether Ramayana and Mahabharata really happened, no one has done any archeological digs to find out for sure.

So, each Hindu would have his/her interpretation of those stories...

Do Hindus believe that everything written in their scriptures actually happened, or do they see them as instructive stories?Apparently some of the stories are based on historical events and real people, but all the Indians I've met in the USA--a couple of dozen, I suppose--recognize the rest as metaphors.

all the Indians I've met in the USA.

I wonder how much they are influenced by where they live. Most desis in the US are whiter than white, as we call them.

example:


NO GOD DAMN YOU, NO! Nisha is a "white" person on the inside. She likes Twinkies and Jell-O just as much as Mary Jo Beth does! Sure, Nisha can handle spicy curry and secretly listens to Bollywood music, but so what? That doesn't make her a full Indian. She's not. She's a damn American. And nobody can see that but her. Everyone assumes she's an Indian. And what is an Indian? A totally different way of life and culture that she does not live and has not grown up on.

Yes, her nationality is Indian. Yes she grew up learning some Indian values. Yes, she is probably a bit more cultured than Sarah and Jane but all in all, she is an American. But nobody seems to understand that. They tell her that she's in denial when she says she's proud to be an American. When she claims that she is American they tell her, "No you're not, you're an Indian."

No, damnit, no. She's an American. A unique F**** American. This is the F*** melting pot. She's been lucky to grow up with two outlooks on life so she can take the better of the two and be a one of a kind person. People don't allow her to be who she is because they expect her to act like an Indian and say she's an Indian when she's really something else all together.

http://www.desiclub.com/community/culture/culture_article.cfm?id=179

I wouldn't consider them as representative of anything but American values :p

I wonder how much they are influenced by where they live. Most desis in the US are whiter than white, as we call them.

I wouldn't consider them as representative of anything but American values

That is how blacks think too. My black friend does not have a black accent. Therefore he is accused of being "white" by his black friends.

I wonder how much they are influenced by where they live. Most desis in the US are whiter than white, as we call them.Everyone's skin lightens after living in a northern latitude for a few years, but the ones from southern India are much darker than Obama.

What I've been told is that an educated Indian Hindu--anywhere--is much more likely to understand his religion as a collection of metaphors than an educated American Christian.
I wouldn't consider them as representative of anything but American values.I suppose everyone starts to seem foreign to his countrymen after living in another land. But they sure don't seem "American" to us. High incidence of vegetarianism, and even the meat eaters have their one day a week without it in honor of their (admittedly imaginary) family god. Too much emphasis on work and not enough on fun. Strong family cohesion and loyalty. No public displays of affection, no flirting, no sexual banter. Those are not American values.

One thing they all have in common is being repulsed by the class system.

In any country, the people who are willing to leave and make a home somewhere else are going to have qualitatively different attitudes from the ones who decide to stay there. So you're right that it's risky to judge a people by its emigrants.

Nonetheless, as immigrant communities go, the first-generation Indian-Americans are pretty foreign. Their children will be Americanized, but they're not. They're caught in between.

One thing they all have in common is being repulsed by the class system.



YUP


Nonetheless, as immigrant communities go, the first-generation Indian-Americans are pretty foreign. Their children will be Americanized, but they're not. They're caught in between.

Even a first generation married to an American (White, Hispanic etc) would have absorbed the culture to a large extent.

Children...not necessarily caught in between. I had an Indian colleague who was born and raised here...he was well adjusted to the American culture and finally married to a blond.

Apparently some of the stories are based on historical events and real people, but all the Indians I've met in the USA--a couple of dozen, I suppose--recognize the rest as metaphors.


Christians are much more reluctant to see anything as a metaphor.

Everyone's skin lightens after living in a northern latitude for a few years, but the ones from southern India are much darker than Obama..

Whiter than white refers to acting white not skin colour. It harks back to our name for the English, the goras

I wonder how much they are influenced by where they live. Most desis in the US are whiter than white, as we call them.

Most of the ones I interact with regularly have lived in the US for substantially less time than you did. So either they're representative of (a certain slice of) Indian culture, or you aren't, or your whole thesis about cultural influence is bunk to begin with.

Any salient differences about the interpretation of scripture are probably best explained by noting that Indian Americans are disproportionately drawn from the highly educated, technical classes. These are engineers, doctors and scientists we're talking about here, and those types tend to have little patience for outright mysticism. On the other hand, recognizing scripture as metaphor - rather than literal truth - is not a widely-observed strength of American culture, so one would be hard-pressed to see how immigrants would pick up such a stance from living here.

Meanwhile, I've never heard this term "whiter than white." But I've heard the terms "coconut" and "ABCD" pretty regularly.

Whiter than white refers to acting white not skin colour. It harks back to our name for the English, the goras

Could you explain that a little more deeply.
Has it anything to do with mixed race Indians?

Most of the ones I interact with regularly have lived in the US for substantially less time than you did. So either they're representative of (a certain slice of) Indian culture, or you aren't, or your whole thesis about cultural influence is bunk to begin with.

Any salient differences about the interpretation of scripture are probably best explained by noting that Indian Americans are disproportionately drawn from the highly educated, technical classes. These are engineers, doctors and scientists we're talking about here, and those types tend to have little patience for outright mysticism. On the other hand, recognizing scripture as metaphor - rather than literal truth - is not a widely-observed strength of American culture, so one would be hard-pressed to see how immigrants would pick up such a stance from living here.


Actually, the trait to look at the content of scriptures as metaphors is not necessarily to do with education or social standing - though it might be at a different level with specific groups.

As an example, Rama is not revered because of his valor or physical strength - but for the qualities of persistence, truthfulness, devotion to his cause and values - a change agent (God) in an age where this was all not the norm. Hanuman is revered for his absolute devotion to his master and a cause - not for his physical ability to jump long distances or kill the demons. Even today, where devotion needs exemplified in any field by a Hindu, Hanuman is referred to as inspiration.

This view exists not just in the "whiter than whites" but even in the "darker than the dark, uneducated people" who toil in the Indian Sun in the innermost hamlets. You will hear priests in temples even there talking about the inner abstract representations of what the epics and scriptures say.

Who would do this? Who hates Hindus? Americans love them, although most Americans think Hinduism and Buddhism are the same thing. Ever since the Beatles got their own guru, I haven't heard anyone say anything derogatory about Hinduism.

Pal, it is not so B/W thingy. Not all Americans understand Hinduism, nay, are not prepared to do so. Americans started with viewing Hinduism as satanism, then to a "strange" religion, then a mysterious system. From hate it has changed to absence of hate, but does it mean love too? NO.

who would do it? There is no dearth of "scholars" who would deliberately distort the facts, this book is an exzample. I assure you that all the errors pointed out are REAL. I rather believe that they are insidious.

Who would do it? Know about numerals, place value system and rules of computation? Everyone in the west staeted with believing they were Arabic in origin [basis? NIL. Except that they got it from Arabs]. Then it dawned upon them that the Arabs had credited Hindus!!! What happened?? GRUDGINGLY, they said: OK, Indo-Arabic. Hahaha.

Mostly by English "scholars". Take a recent example. Who conquored the S. Pole? Was it Amundsen or Scot? Amundesn reached S. Pole fully ONE month before Scot did. He spent 3 days there making observations and trying to fix the EXACT location of S. Pole. Yet look at maps, histories. S. Pole: Amundsen-Scot, as if they reached it the same day!!




Is it the Muslims? There has been a lot of Hindu/Muslim violence in India, culminating in the partitioning of Pakistan. They've continued to make war, on and off, as separate countries.

No. i absolve them. I am a Hindu.


Is it the Buddhists? The majority population in Sri Lanka is Buddhist and the Tamil Tigers who claim to have been treated unfairly are Hindus, right?

Buddhists could not do it without repudiating their roots.

Then who? Do I need to draw a map here?

This is more BS from the Saffron brigade.

Like to disprove any thing?

No idea, I don't know any advanced Indians. :p



Why be annoyed? As she said, Hindus:an alternative history. Could be's should be's would be's are a part of Indian culture. Who knows what history is, but a narrative of different sutradhars? Why can't she be one as well? :)

Now, now. SAM, why should you know about advanced Indian culture?: After all, everything started with Islam and Mo. Ha. But for Mo, nobody would know that mother's milk is invaluable for an infant!!!

SAM, I don't know why you are a Mod at all?

Muslim Barbie, A figure hidden in a TENT.
Anyone wantimng a pic might see IGLOO on google.

Now, now. SAM, why should you know about advanced Indian culture?

Don't be silly. What is an "advanced Indian"? Some one who speaks English? Are some Indians "work in progress"? I don't accept that westernised Indians are more "advanced" - who is more well versed in Indian culture? The ABCD or the Indian brought up in an Indian ethos? Who is more "advanced" as an Indian?

Don't be silly. What is an "advanced Indian"? Some one who speaks English? Are some Indians "work in progress"? I don't accept that westernised Indians are more "advanced" - who is more well versed in Indian culture? The ABCD or the Indian brought up in an Indian ethos? Who is more "advanced" as an Indian?

Evasive now?

I've found out about Donkeys.

The demon Kali was reincarnated as a King.
Source for terming Kali a demon? Not epistemology out of your ass.
Source for her incarnation as a king? Not your ass please.




So, the donkey is associated with the nearest thing Hindus have to a Christian Devil.

Source? Not your ass please.

This is what it says in wapedia

Kali was later incarnated as king Duryodhana, eldest of the one hundred Kaurava brothers. His companion Dvapara became his uncle Sakuni. The day Duryodhana was born, he unleashed a donkey-like scream which the donkeys outside the home replied to. Despite the advise from Vidura to discard the evil baby, Duryodhana's father Dhritarashtra kept the child because demons had received a boon from Shiva that the future king would be invincible.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Kali_(demon)

Haha. Then Wapedia is WRONG and someone pulled it out of his ass. Get me a refrence from Mahabharata, not your ass.

I've googled Dhotis, and they are all the rage. Dhoti Salwars anyway.
I'm surprised you didn't know SAM.
http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/45333/2890980180101455424S600x600Q85.jpg

In fact you know nothing. SAM is muslim, and muslims do not wear dhotis. Period.

Dhoti for a woman is called a sari, and many muslim women too wear it. Many xian women too. In fact office going women mostly wear saris, just as teachers do.

A suit with salwar is aka Punjabi suit and is nearly a pan Indian dress for young women and girls.


Hmm. In fact more of your posts I see, the more I am convinced that you are a prejudiced ass, with very shallow knowledge about India.

Muslims do not wear dhotis? Yes we do, only we call it a lungi or a sarong! Its the most common garment in Muslims in India! Thats what most of them wear at home!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungi

Its just not pulled up at the back like a Marathi saree

Muslims do not wear dhotis? Yes we do, only we call it a lungi or a sarong! Its the most common garment in Muslims in India! Thats what most of them wear at home!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungi

Its just not pulled up at the back like a Marathi saree

They call it a lungi. A dhoti is worn differently from a lungi. In fact a muslim cannot be seen dead wearing a dhoti. But a Hindu has no hangup about a lungi.

Source for terming Kali a demon? Not epistemology out of your ass.
Source for her incarnation as a king? Not your ass please.




Source? Not your ass please.
I think its kali as in where we get kali yuga from (as opposed to durga kali)

Same dhoti can be worn as a Lungi. It is like rolling up ones sleeves from a long sleeve shirt. But, yes Indian Muslim men do not were Dhotis that attaches in the back - I think.

http://www.eastwesteducation.org/images/dressup_lungi2.jpg

Sure. It can be wrapped around the shoulders too. While sleeping it can cover you. If need be you can wrap and tie your things too.

“ Originally Posted by rcscwc
Source for terming Kali a demon? Not epistemology out of your ass.
Source for her incarnation as a king? Not your ass please.




Source? Not your ass please. ”


I think its kali as in where we get kali yuga from (as opposed to durga kali)

Think or moonshine? Who says even Kali in Kali Yuga is a demon?

Just as Christianity has thousands of denominations each with their version of interpretation, Hindus have many more times....

Most stories are just parables, a teaching tool

But whether Ramayana and Mahabharata really happened, no one has done any archeological digs to find out for sure.

So, each Hindu would have his/her interpretation of those stories...

Archeological evidence is nearly out. What is such evidence with respect to Buddha? ZERO.

When you excavate for archeological evidence, you are generally, of not always, aware what you MIGHT find ie nature of find. In case of Mahabharata, what would you expect to find? Krishna's horroscope on a stone tablet?

But there is certain internal astronomical information in Mahabharata, which points that it happened around 5300 years ago.

General Interpretations are not much different. But Hindus, having freedom of thought, do have some opinions about various characters.

But Hindus, having freedom of thought, do have some opinions about various characters

And Indians also extend this freedom to everyone else -except when fundamentalists are in power and filmmakers are forced to keep movies like Fire and Sita Sings the Blues only for foreign audiences. Which is a pity - that we have to go abroad to see movies about Indian characters.

Have you read The Argumentative Indian by Amartya Sen? It is a "feel good" book for all Indians.

Think or moonshine? Who says even Kali in Kali Yuga is a demon?


SYNONYMS

duryodhanam — Duryodhana; ṛte — except; pāpam — sinful; kalim — the empowered expansion of the age of Kali; kuru-kula — of the Kuru dynasty; āmayam — the disease; yaḥ — who; na sehe — could not tolerate; śrīyam — the opulences; sphītām — flourishing; dṛṣṭvā — seeing; pāṇḍu-sutasya — of the son of Pāṇḍu; tām — that.

TRANSLATION

[All were satisfied] except sinful Duryodhana, the personification of the age of quarrel and the disease of the Kuru dynasty. He could not bear to see the flourishing opulence of the son of Pāṇḍu.

SB10.74.53 (http://vedabase.net/sb/10/74/53/en)


A partial incarnation of Kali will descend as Duryodhana. Soma will descend as Abhimanyu. Lord Siva will place His own form on the earth as Dronacarya's son Asvatthämä.

Garga samhita canto 1 T30

also its there in the mahabharata adi parva when they give an intro to the main players :


From a portion of Kali, who degrades all humankind, evil-minded Duryodhana took birth, full of evil schemes and destined to create infamy for the House of Kuru. Envious of the entire world, this personification of strife, this very lowest of men, laid all the world to waste when he ignited a raging inferno of war that consumed countless creatures.

Tons of other references - I was just saying that its pretty obvious that this is the relationship between kali and duryodhana ... although terming it a "demon" is probably a consequence of european translations

SB10.74.53 (http://vedabase.net/sb/10/74/53/en)


Garga samhita canto 1 T30

also its there in the mahabharata adi parva when they give an intro to the main players :

Tons of other references - I was just saying that its pretty obvious that this is the relationship between kali and duryodhana ... although terming it a "demon" is probably a consequence of european translations

Dur-yodhna, a fighter hard to oppose. Also called Su-yodhana, a noble fighter.

Kali Yuga was yet to start. Kali is definitely not a demon. Kali Yuga, name of the era after Dwapar, lasting 4,32,000 years, after whick Lord Kalik is to appear.

The life and society in this era too is described in detail.

Dur-yodhna, a fighter hard to oppose. Also called Su-yodhana, a noble fighter.
I'm pretty sure it was his parents who named him Suyodhana - yet he is more well referenced by his other names


Kali Yuga was yet to start. Kali is definitely not a demon. Kali Yuga, name of the era after Dwapar, lasting 4,32,000 years, after whick Lord Kalik is to appear.
Like many elements in vedic thought, there is a personified aspect to it (and hence portions and plenary portions of it)
Like Kali's encounter with maharaj Pariksit (when he is beating the cow)

Also there are many references to how kali could not appear in a his fullness while Krsna was on the planet (kali yuga began at the point of Krishna's external disappearance), there are also references to how duryodhana is paving the way for the junction of yugas


When Vidura heard the evil plan to steal the wealth of the Pandavas, he knew the age of Kali had arrived. Kali Yuga means the age of quarrel and hypocrisy. Before the age of Kali, kings were rajarshis, godly men in the dress of kings. Duryodhana was the first king to exhibit the qualities of Kali Yuga: envy, lust, greed, anger, etc. Therefore, Vidura, due to his vast knowledge and realization, could immediately understand that the age of Kali was here because Duryodhana envied the godly and pious Pandavas.
Mahabharata




As long us Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the husband of the goddess of fortune, touched the earth with His lotus feet, Kali was powerless to subdue this planet.

Although even during the time of Lord Kṛṣṇa's presence on earth Kali had entered the earth to a slight extent through the impious activities of Duryodhana and his allies, Lord Kṛṣṇa consistently suppressed Kali's influence. Kali could not flourish until Lord Kṛṣṇa had left the earth.
http://vedabase.net/sb/12/2/30/en

Kali Yuga had to come. Krishna was busy minimising it ill effects by eliminating the bad ones to the extent possible. Even his own clan had become wayward.

Parikshit did want to banish Kali, but Kali convinced him. As per schema, Kali did come when Krishna left.

Kali Yuga had to come. Krishna was busy minimising it ill effects by eliminating the bad ones to the extent possible. Even his own clan had become wayward.

Parikshit did want to banish Kali, but Kali convinced him. As per schema, Kali did come when Krishna left.
hence duryodhana was the bad egg that heralded kali yuga

Not sure what you are referencing to suggest that Krsna's clan was wayward

Doesn't Kali Yug or Kalyug have to do with the male demon Kali and not the female goddess? Isn't he the nemesis of Kalki, the tenth avatar of Vishnu?


According to the Vishnu Purana, he is a negative manifestation of Vishnu, who along with his extended evil family, perpetually operates as a cause of the destruction of this world.[1] In the Kalki Purana, he is portrayed as a demon and the source of all evil. In the Mahabharata, he was a gandharva who possessed Nala, forcing him to lose his Kingdom in a game of dice to his brother Pushkara. His most famous incarnation is the Kaurava King Duryodhana. Kali is the prototype for the demon Kroni and his incarnation Kaliyan of Ayyavazhi mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28demon%29

Or am I just confused?

Doesn't Kali Yug or Kalyug have to do with the male demon Kali and not the female goddess? Isn't he the nemesis of Kalki, the tenth avatar of Vishnu?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28demon%29

Or am I just confused?
they are different personalities, the goddess kali is an expansion of siva's consort, durga or paravti (the jurisdiction of both is the material world or Devi-dhama )


TRANSLATION (http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/21/53/en)

"The abode of the external energy is called Devī-dhāma, and its inhabitants are the conditioned souls. It is there that the material energy, Durgā, resides with many opulent maidservants.

PURPORT

Because he wants to enjoy the material energy, the conditioned soul is allowed to reside in Devī-dhāma, the external energy, where goddess Durgā carries out the orders of the Supreme Lord as His maidservant. The material energy is called jagal-lakṣmī because she protects the bewildered conditioned souls. Goddess Durgā is therefore known as the material mother, and Lord Śiva, her husband, is known as the material father. Goddess Durgā is so named because this material world is like a big fort where the conditioned soul is placed under her care. For material facilities, the conditioned soul tries to please goddess Durgā, and mother Durgā supplies all kinds of material facilities. Because of this, the conditioned souls are allured and do not wish to leave the external energy. Consequently they are continuously making plans to live here peacefully and happily. Such is the material world.


TRANSLATION (http://vedabase.net/sb/4/24/18/en)

Lord Śiva, the most powerful demigod, second only to Lord Viṣṇu, is self-sufficient. Although he has nothing to aspire for in the material world, for the benefit of those in the material world he is always busily engaged everywhere and is accompanied by his dangerous energies like goddess Kālī and goddess Durgā.

Kali, as in kali yuga, is an era summed up By Markandeya (who goes on to say that every kali yuga it is more or less the same, having received the boon to live through many universal devastations)


The world in Kaliyuga. The celebrated sage Markandeya had prophesied about the happenings in Kaliyuga thus: In Kaliyuga all will be dishonest. Charity and Sacrifices will be only for a name. Brahmanas would do the duties of sudras. Sudras will become prosperous. There will be sinners as kings. People will be short-lived and the stature of the people also will diminish. Beastly type of men will be on the increase. Taste and smell will vanish. Women will be `Mukhebhagas'. Men will sell rice and brahmanas, the Vedas. Women will sell their vaginas. The yield of milk from cows will decrease. Flowers and fruits will become less. Crows will be on the increase. Brahmanas would become beggars. Sages will be merchants. Brahmanas would without any reason grow hairs and nails. None will observe the four asramas correctly. Students will defile the bed of their preceptors. Rains will be in and out of season. Trees and plants will refuse to grow in many places. There will be murder of people everywhere. Merchants will be cheats and they will use false measures. Righteous persons will decrease and sinners will increase. Girls of seven or eight years will become pregnant and boys will become fathers. Young men at the age of sixteen would be grey-haired. Old men will continue practising the habits of young men. Wives will lie with their servants. Wives will be prostitutes even while their husbands are alive. People will die in lots of hunger." (Chapter 188. Vana Parva).

Its not so much that kali is the arch enemy of visnu (like jaya and vijaya who play out the role of Hiranyakashipu and Hiranyaksha, Ravana and Kumbakana, Sisupala and Dantavakra (and finally Jaghai and Madhai In Mahaprabhu's lila ), but rather kali is an age that grants what is impossible in other ages : namely to fulfill the desire to be a scoundrel wholesale.
Kalki simply comes to wrap everything up by cleaning the slate to allow for satya yuga to come on the scene again (kind of like spring emerges from winter)

IOW the age of kali is essential to every divya yuga (cycle of satya, dvapara, treta and kali) much like winter is an essential season for every year

So who is Kali -male demon vs female goddess?

I understand the concept of cyclic destruction and regeneration, it is mortality that requires reproduction

So who is Kali -male demon vs female goddess?

I understand the concept of cyclic destruction and regeneration, it is mortality that requires reproduction
the kali of kali yuga isn't really a demon (asura) - he is the personification of the age of kali - he has an encounter with maharaj pariksit while beating the personification of religious principles so sometimes he is understood as sin personified

the female goddess kali is lord siva's consort - she has a gruesome appearance because she is the ferocious aspect of material nature (many Bengalis joke about their wives or mother s in laws being Maa Kali when they go ballistic). As an expansion of Durga, Kali is commonly worshiped for material boons (and being somewhat gruesome in nature, her worship sometimes finds its way into nefarious tantric practices)

They are two different personalities who share the name (kind of like George Bush and Boy George share the same name)

So who is Kali -male demon vs female goddess?

How come you, of all people are asking this?

I thought these things were common knowledge for Indians.

I even saw a video of a "India's got talent" show or something like that, and one performance was avatars of Krishna, and there was also Kalki.
Edit: Here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWRz4hkndxg

Doesn't Kali Yug or Kalyug have to do with the male demon Kali and not the female goddess? Isn't he the nemesis of Kalki, the tenth avatar of Vishnu?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28demon%29

Or am I just confused?

Don't confuse Kali yuga with Goddess Kali.

None is a demon. Kali, male, is symbolic of dark age.

Lord Kalki is to appear at the end of Kali Yuga.

So who is Kali -male demon vs female goddess?

I understand the concept of cyclic destruction and regeneration, it is mortality that requires reproduction

Godess Kali is pronounced as kAAli
whereas personified kali yuga is called kali or kali purusha.
Kalki, an avatar of Vishnu supposed to happen in kali yuga, is different from both.

This is more BS from the Saffron brigade.

OP mentions RV 10-62. Here it is in its entirety.
Hymn 10.62. HYMN LXII. Visvedevas, Etc.
1. YE, who, adorned with guerdon through the sacrifice, have won you Indra's friendship and eternal life,
Even to you be happiness, Angirases. Welcome the son of Manu, ye who are most wise.
2 The Fathers, who drave forth the wealth in cattle, have in the year's courses cleft Vala by Eternal Law:
A lengthened life be yours, O ye Angirases. Welcome the son of Manu, ye who are most wise.
3 Ye raised the Sun to heaven by everlasting Law, and spread broad earth, the Mother, out on every side.
Fair wealth of progeny be yours, Angirases. Welcome the son of Manu, ye who are most wise.
4 This kinsman in your dwellingplace speaks pleasant words: give car to this, ye Rsis, children of the Gods.
High Brahman dignity be yours, Angirases. Welcome the son of Manu, ye who are most wise.
5 Distinguished by their varied form, these Rsis have been deeply moved.
These are the sons of Angirases: from Agni have they sprung to life.
6 Distinguished by their varied form, they sprang from Agni, from the sky.
Navagva and Dasagva, noblest Angiras, he giveth bounty with the Gods.
7 With Indra for associate the priests have cleared the stable full of steeds and kine,
Giving to me a thousand with their eightmarked cars, they gained renown among the Gods.
8 May this man's sons be multiplied; like springing corn may Manu grow,
Who gives at once in bounteous gift a thousand kine, a hundred steeds.
9 No one attains to him, as though a man would grasp the heights of heaven.
Savarnya's sacrificial meed hath broadened like an ample flood.
10 Yadu and Turva, too, have given two Dasas, well-disposed, to serve,
Together with great store of kine.
11 Blest be the hamlet's chief, most liberal Manu, and may his bounty rival that of Surya.
May the God let Ssvarni's life be leng
thened, with whom, unwearied, we have lived and prospered.


If it is saffron BS, then kindly point out where a woman finds her brother in her bed?

If it is saffron BS, then kindly point out where a woman finds her brother in her bed?

It is saffron BS to pretend that the Rigveda is the sole source of Hindu history. Especially when Hinduism was created by the British in the 1800s and the name Hindu itself is a derivation of the name Sindu given by presumably the ancient Iranians, to the people east of the Indus

What does the Rigveda call the people now known as Hindus?

What does the Rigveda call the people now known as Hindus?
probably brahma bandhus
:o

It is saffron BS to pretend that the Rigveda is the sole source of Hindu history. Especially when Hinduism was created by the British in the 1800s and the name Hindu itself is a derivation of the name Sindu given by presumably the ancient Iranians, to the people east of the Indus

What does the Rigveda call the people now known as Hindus?

The issue in OP is inaccuracies and deliberate distortions of history. I pointed out one, now you are hairing off in another direction. That too pointless.

Pg 532 - Emperor Akbar moved his capital from Fatehpur Sikri to Delhi in 1586.

COMMENT: Emperor Akbar moved his capital to Lahore in 1587, and thereafter to Agra.

Is it saffron BS?

Pg 537-8 - The Sikh teacher Guru Govind Singh was assassinated in 1708, while ’attending Emperor Aurangzeb’. Emperor Aurangzeb died in 1707.

COMMENT: Guru Gobind Singh was assassinated in 1708 during the reign of Aurangzeb’s successor, Emperor Bahadur Shah I. It is insulting to say that the Guru was ‘attending’ on the Emperor. He died at Nanded, present Maharashtra after being stabbed by an Afghan.

It is saffron BS?

That book is snarling with mistakes or deliberate distortion. At best it is an ill researched and slip shod work.

The issue in OP is inaccuracies and deliberate distortions of history. I pointed out one, now you are hairing off in another direction. That too pointless.

Pg 532 - Emperor Akbar moved his capital from Fatehpur Sikri to Delhi in 1586.

COMMENT: Emperor Akbar moved his capital to Lahore in 1587, and thereafter to Agra.

Is it saffron BS?

Pg 537-8 - The Sikh teacher Guru Govind Singh was assassinated in 1708, while ’attending Emperor Aurangzeb’. Emperor Aurangzeb died in 1707.

COMMENT: Guru Gobind Singh was assassinated in 1708 during the reign of Aurangzeb’s successor, Emperor Bahadur Shah I. It is insulting to say that the Guru was ‘attending’ on the Emperor. He died at Nanded, present Maharashtra after being stabbed by an Afghan.

It is saffron BS?

That book is snarling with mistakes or deliberate distortion. At best it is an ill researched and slip shod work.

How do you what is the accurate form of the history? What are the sources used by the author compared to the sources used by yourself? One of the things I have learned is that history is the surviving narrative, its only rarely that its truth value can be supported by strong and inviolate evidence. As such any alternative version of history is as valid as the popular version, unless you can show somehow some proof that makes one version more believable than the other. From what I have studied of the saffronisation of history in India over the last couple of decades, I have to say any version of history from them is suspect since their aim has been to create some alternate version of both Hinduism and Indian history which lacks credibility and rigor. Thats not to say that they are always wrong, but I'd have to academically compare both sources before considering any one version less fictional than the other

Hahaha. Hahaha. SAM, did I not show the damned author was WRONG. MISCHIVIEVIOUS. MALICIOUS about Rig Veda?

Btw, you are only ranting about saffron!! The color of fonts for quran too.

Hahaha. No temple at Ayodhyda prior to Babri [ gay socket of Babar]. But proved by excavations. That too in the teeth of RED HISTORIANS.

I would laugh, but will not. It is on record that Guru Gobind was stabbed by an Afghan at NANDED, not in Delhi.

Was Guru Teg Bahadur assissinated while attending Aurangzeb? Was he attending?

Hahaha. Hahaha. SAM, did I not show the damned author was WRONG. MISCHIVIEVIOUS. MALICIOUS about Rig Veda?

I'm not an authority so I don't know if its wrong. Whats the source used by the author?


Btw, you are only ranting about saffron!! The color of fonts for quran too.

Sure and some of my clothes as well. But the saffron brigade is a political entity and not representative of the colour.


Hahaha. No temple at Ayodhyda prior to Babri [ gay socket of Babar]. But proved by excavations. That too in the teeth of RED HISTORIANS.

"proved" by whom? where? I've read the articles of the ASI and they have no conclusive evidence.


I would laugh, but will not. It is on record that Guru Gobind was stabbed by an Afghan at NANDED, not in Delhi.


Who recorded this? Where? Whats the source?


Was Guru Teg Bahadur assissinated while attending Aurangzeb? Was he attending?
No idea, I don't know, do you?

wrf to the dates and places you mentioned. When did the Mughals or the Hindus start using the Gregorian calendar to record dates? Who kept these records?

Since you are not an authority, so why do you open your mouth wide enough to put your both feet in?

Advice

Better to keep quiet and be taken as a fool than to open your mouth and remove the doubt.

Saying "I don't know" is not proving oneself a fool. I doubt a single member of the saffron brigade has read the entire Rig Veda. Or is an authority on "Hindu" history. Maybe the author is not entirely correct. And its certainly a worthwhile enterprise to debate on the points where you think she is mistaken. However I have not seen a single credible authority post any peer reviewed or acknowledged work with an objective viewpoint - all I hear is personal attacks on someone who has taken the trouble to research and write on the history of the Indian people. She is an academic:


Doniger is the Mircea Eliade Distinguished Service Professor of Religions at the University of Chicago and the author of many books

and if you have issue with any of her sources, feel free to discuss why.

Saying "I don't know" is not proving oneself a fool. I doubt a single member of the saffron brigade has read the entire Rig Veda. Or is an authority on "Hindu" history. Maybe the author is not entirely correct. And its certainly a worthwhile enterprise to debate on the points where you think she is mistaken. However I have not seen a single credible authority post any peer reviewed or acknowledged work with an objective viewpoint - all I hear is personal attacks on someone who has taken the trouble to research and write on the history of the Indian people. She is an academic:



and if you have issue with any of her sources, feel free to discuss why.

No, I did not call you a fool. But you removed the doubt.

Forget about who has or has not read RV, I have. Did I not post the RV hymn in questions? Is Doniger's interpretation accurate or mischievious. Doniger might be anything, but even he can be malicious or a plain ignoromus.

Ignorance is palpable. When Did Qasim invade? Did Doniger know the correct year even?

By bad mouthing Hindu historians you cannot defend Doniger.

I asked you what her source was and you did not respond. Have you read the book? Checked her sources?


When Did Qasim invade? Did Doniger know the correct year even?

Well I would be interested to know how anyone knows what the correct year is - which calendar we are using, for one. Who recorded the event, where, why etc

If you want to prove that she is mistaken, opinion is not enough, you need supporting evidence.

If you feel her source is in error you need to explain why. What are the words she has misinterpreted or misrepresented? Can they be read in more than one way? What is the accepted interpretation, based on what knowledge or information, etc. You have to show at least some degree of academic rigor if you are serious about the issue.

Did I not post objective proof by posting the RV hymn?

Did Guru Gobind Singh die at Delhi? Really? What is her source? You are her defender, so you give it.

What about Donkeys then?

Jesus rode them.