This thread probably belongs here in the History section. I assume that because in the early 1900's (or 1890's, I'm not sure) Israel Zangwill wrote a play called 'The Melting Pot', in which one of the lines was 'God is creating the new man, the American' or words to that effect. Zangwill's argument was that the different ethnic groups of Europe, who had been at loggerheads for centuries back across the Atlantic, were starting to come together to form a united race. Since then the argument has gone back and forth about the truth or otherwise of what he said.

What's the opinion of folks out there in forum-land? Is Zangwill correct? Does the melting-pot exist? :)

What's the opinion of folks out there in forum-land? Is Zangwill correct? Does the melting-pot exist? :-)
lets see, I'm Chicano( a Mexican born in the US), I have 11 cousins, we're 1st generation US-born;
4 married Poles or Germans, 1 been married twice (Italian & Polish), 1 a Colombian, 2 Mexicans, 2 still single & 1 gay.

of my immediate family; 2 brothers (are or been) married to Mexican/ Chicanas, the rest single, so far

melting pot? the evidence is clear

What's the opinion of folks out there in forum-land? Is Zangwill correct? Does the melting-pot exist?


Just spent the last half hour frustrated trying to find it.
Found it ( about a white boy named Barry Cox):


“The Chinese are laughing with Cox, whose performance suggest that, in a globalizing world, people can wear an identity like a mask or part of their clothes, putting it on and off depending on circumstances.

Most important, he shows that a menu of options for people seeking to revamp their identity have expanded. Even though he’s a working-class kid form Liverpool, he can adopt an exotic guise.”

Here’s the good part-
Cox realizes he can take his ‘new identity’ so far, put he pushes his limits:

“If I don’t mix with the Chinese and speak Chinese and sing Chinese” he says “what would I be doing now? I’d jut be a normal person, nothing special about me.”- The Global Me, G. Pascal Zachary

His being something else is not a luxury or experiment, it’s a need and it makes him feel ‘special’- that’s how you know identity- anything- is becoming obsolete, by this grasping for something alien to familiarize who you are again.

Not only this-we are 5 years into the millennium and given the beauty of culture that distinguishes groups from the others, you can no longer tell the Hondurian immigrant from the American.
Both are busy paying their cell-phone bills as are the mujahadeen:who supposedly hate American comfort.

See that boy up there? He’s the new face who hates where he comes from in praise of ‘diversity’.

Consider also that the year 2000 was the first time the States expanded their census to include more races.
Why?
A flattening mongrelization.

Speaking about the example of New Zealand, there's a tremendous level of intermarriage between European NZers and the native Maori race. I've heard figures as high as 70% of each Maori generation marrying out of their race in this current generation--tho I daresay that has fluctuated pretty wildly over time.

Blah blah blah blegh bufucking blah, another post gone to shit.

Screw you all.

wow, watch the attitude, i dont think that the " melting pot" has ever succesfully existed, but the U.S. is the closest it has ever come.

Gendanken,

I'm unsure about your post. Is Barry Cox part chinese or a white kid immersing himself in chinese culture?

I am of mixed (ha!) emotions about this whole globalization and/or melting pot thing.
On the one hand, it would be nice to eradicate racism. But I doubt if 'mongrelization' (as you call it) would really eradicate racism. It would merely make our sense of distinction finer. For instance, many african countries have an extreme amount of racism towards the different shades of color. The light-skinned blacks vs. the dark-skinned blacks and all varieties in between. They also distinguish between the curliness of the hair. A pencil test. If a pencil will stick in your hair because of the tight curls vs. those whose hair is looser and would not hold a pencil.

And, on the other hand, the loss of culture inherent in any smearing and blending of race can only be seen as a loss. Not only a loss of culture but also of diversity. If we all become a homogenous cultural blah then the odds of our culture failing in any given circumstance increases.

I'm going to break out one of my favorite lines here. Ready?
Ask the smilodon.
Culture is just as subject to evolutionary protocols as biology. Perhaps even more so as culture is able to evolve so much more rapidly than biology.


By the way, I recall a report from a couple of years back that suggested that America would be overwhelmingly latino by the year 2040. This shouldn't come as a surprise as the whole of the western hemisphere, other than the U.S. and Canada, is predominantly Latin. The language to learn is Spanish, people.

Como se llama? Como esta usted?


Simonbubly,


i dont think that the " melting pot" has ever succesfully existed, but the U.S. is the closest it has ever come.

I don't think there's enough evidence really to confirm this or not. However, given the available information I'd say you're right in this.

By the way, I recall a report from a couple of years back that suggested that America would be overwhelmingly latino by the year 2040. This shouldn't come as a surprise as the whole of the western hemisphere, other than the U.S. and Canada, is predominantly Latin. The language to learn is Spanish, people.So what is America predominantly now? English? I don't think so, at least not by blood. I don't think that 50% or more of the population is 50% or more English by ancestry. Probably a good deal less than that. I'm a fairly typical American and only one fourth of my ancestors came from England. The rest came from a whole bunch of other European countries. Yet we all speak English because a language has a life of its own. Every second-generation Latino in this country speaks fluent English -- every single one of them -- and a good many of them don't know as much Spanish as I do. In my experience a majority of the first generation immigrants speak English well enough to use it as a common tongue and only speak Spanish when they're comfortably within an entirely Spanish-speaking community. They speak English a whole lot better than I speak Spanish and I've been practicing diligently for more than 40 years. America is not English now and when the huge wave of Latino immigration and procreation hits it won't be Latino. We all speak English now even though our ancestors came over here speaking German, Dutch, Polish, and a hundred other languages. America is simply American and it will still be American in a hundred years, even though the definition of "American" will have continued to change. Americans a hundred years from now will still be speaking English even though the language known as "American English" will have continued to change.

Yo me llamo El Viejo. Y yo estoy muy bien, gracias. Yo hablo las tres lenguas importantes de mi pais: el ingles, el espanol, y el chino.

Fraggle Rocker,


So what is America predominantly now?
That ever elusive category of caucasian. White.

You're likely right about the matter of language. That the immigrants will adapt to English as those who came before have done. But, when the majoriy of Americans have strong ties to a spanish heritage, from which we are only seperated by miles and not by oceans, the importance of speaking spanish will be stronger than speaking german, for example.

As to the changes in language, I should imagine that it will be something like Spanglish. A bit of this and a bit of that. And of course, all the earlier incorporations from other languages will still be present as well.

In a sense, this mingling is beneficial. Survival of the fittest. Only a stronger culture could be the outcome of a truly competitive mingling. However, political correctness prevents this sort of mingling in regards to culture. But I should think that language might still be allowed to run its course in a natural sort of way, seeing as how few people actually pay attention to it. Neglect has its benefits.


Yo me llamo El Viejo.

Old man, eh?

I, by the way, am a monolingual moron. I know enough spanish to know what you said up there, and would likely pick it up quickly in a total immersion setting, but at the moment am mostly clueless beyond simple high school spanish.

Fraggle:

So what is America predominantly now? English? I don't think so, at least not by blood. I don't think that 50% or more of the population is 50% or more English by ancestry. Probably a good deal less than that. I'm a fairly typical American and only one fourth of my ancestors came from England. The rest came from a whole bunch of other European countries. Yet we all speak English because a language has a life of its own. Every second-generation Latino in this country speaks fluent English -- every single one of them -- and a good many of them don't know as much Spanish as I do. In my experience a majority of the first generation immigrants speak English well enough to use it as a common tongue and only speak Spanish when they're comfortably within an entirely Spanish-speaking community. They speak English a whole lot better than I speak Spanish and I've been practicing diligently for more than 40 years.
Fifty bucks says you're in the North.

Where the facilities are bilingual and they offer classes to teach them the language- so I can marginally see where you are coming from.

But go through the entire SouthEast and Midwest and you will find immigrants- Mexican by large to where California is almost indistinguishable from Monterrey- you'll find them all clustered together, speaking Spanish, hearing Spanish, buying Spanish.

Even if the second generation is learning the language, what does this mean if a hundred more immigrants cross the border for every one that graduates high school?
Most of these people live like pious animals- feeding, reproducing, working, sleeping.
And if one of their children or all of them learn to speak fluently or just barely, they use them as go betweens when they need something.
I see it all the time.

These are English-speaking children, by the way, that go through the system all the way up to high school where their education is cut-off because they are illegal so what is the point of them learning the language if the government keeps them as brutes?
That’s just more English- speaking, non-contributory individuals to add to the trailer parks.
But at least they speak English?

Not just this, go to Wal-Mart, Target, name your business and stroll through the aisles. The products are bilingual, and in what they call the 'international section' one sees nothing but Goya.



“The increase in buying power of the Latino population over this 18-year period is expected to be greater than that of the white, African American, American Indian, and Asian populations. Politicians increasingly recognize the political muscle of the Latino population, especially with the group's concentration in the most populous states in the nation.”
Source:

http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=11337

Nebraska and Arizona alone- alone- have growth percentages in the hundreds. That’s…..bacterial.

They're making it easier for them not to learn a language they would be either not learning or using anyway, so this Utopia you’d have, Fraggle, of a mongrel nation called America will be nothing less than more and more first generation immigrants speaking broken English only when they have to. As always.

Invert:

I am of mixed (ha!) emotions about this whole globalization and/or melting pot thing.
On the one hand, it would be nice to eradicate racism. But I doubt if 'mongrelization' (as you call it) would really eradicate racism. It would merely make our sense of distinction finer. For instance, many african countries have an extreme amount of racism towards the different shades of color. The light-skinned blacks vs. the dark-skinned blacks and all varieties in between. They also distinguish between the curliness of the hair. A pencil test. If a pencil will stick in your hair because of the tight curls vs. those whose hair is looser and would not hold a pencil.

Racism will never be 'eradicated', its true, and that’s healthy.

We are communal creatures in love with identity, so even if you had a sea of clones you'd still find a tiny faction that sets itself apart from the others by a mole or a wart the others don't have.

Its foolish to distinguish yourself based solely on the on thing you had nothing to do with, but it does give the human spirit perseverance, pride, dignity.

So I guess we agree, mongrelizatoin will not be the end-all and the liberals will forever keep blah blah blah bla bla blahinnng!!

Oh, no doubt all humans having close to the same color of skin and being more similar otherwise that they are today will continue to find reasons to hate and kill each other. But they'll have one less reason.

Repo:

Oh, no doubt all humans having close to the same color of skin and being more similar otherwise that they are today will continue to find reasons to hate and kill each other. But they'll have one less reason.
Exactly.

But I feel racial "hate" has more to do with communal bonding than actual hatred.
Bubba looooooooves standin' roun' the backyard with the other Bubbas hating them niggers.

Bubba looooooooves standin' roun' the backyard with the other Bubbas hating them niggers.

And vice versa, of course.

And vice versa, of course.
Speaking of- ever notice how the most hateful in any hate group is the one in most need of protection or companionship?

Sucky movie but albeit raises a good point- "American History X".
They're all pissy skinheads, but who among them is the pissiest?
The girlfriend and the fat guy.
Ever seen?

The calmest, most reasonable one is the leader.

Gendanken,

Yeah. I've seen it. My little brother fancies himself a little racist skinhead and he, at first, loved the movie as a triumph of racism. He completely missed the fact that the movie pokes huge holes in his 'ideals'. And then after I pointed it out to him, he made a complete 180. Fucking idiot.

But, who do you mean by the leader? Stedanko? Sorry. Stacy Keach? I think that he seemed calm and reasonable but in reality was very different. He was merely adept at covering up his neediness.

And, the main character, forget his name and the actor's name, is also needy when he falls into the group. He became racist because of his father's death. He felt a huge void in his life and filled it with the idealism of the skinhead group. And he was practically the only one that believed the spiel. The others were merely in it for solidarity while he was searching for something deeper.

Meaning and purpose.
Morality and reason.

But, he was hardly calm until he examined himself more fully and realized how he was being manipulated. Although, I think he always knew he was being manipulated and was ok with that. He, in fact, used those very same techniques on others. It was the epiphany he felt when he realized that no one else was the idealist that he was that killed his ideals. When he realized that Hitler was a dirty little man that didn't believe in what he was saying but merely a performer. A demagogue.

But go through the entire SouthEast and Midwest and you will find immigrants- Mexican by large to where California is almost indistinguishable from Monterrey- you'll find them all clustered together, speaking Spanish, hearing Spanish, buying Spanish.

A whole heap of LA is really just Mexico. When I went to Mexico, the Spanish experience really started in LAX. Coming back through LAX, I didn't feel like I had left Mexico. It's disconcerting to be on American soil and still have everything feel so goddamn foreign. Even Amsterdam is more American than LAX.

But what really burns me about the Mexicans coming over is the corruption they bring, and their tolerance for corruption.

Whities simply aren't incidious enough to compete with mexicans.
The niche of the whitey is to tear through the jungles with his fancy machete, and then be trampled by a horde of ethnics coming up the rear.
Beautifull, in it's way. Like the cuckoo who can't be fucked being a mother, god bless her.

I'm just glad all the mexicans that spill in this direction drown in the pacific ocean.
It will suck if they ever discover floating wood.

Imagine the politically incorrect video game that could be made with this premise, kind of like lemmings.

The niche of the whitey is to tear through the jungles with his fancy machete, and then be trampled by a horde of ethnics coming up the rear.
Maybe for all you Whities under the Commonwealth.
US in the states thoroughly wiped out our Natives, which can't really be said for the Spaniards. We even crushed their culture with booze and TV!

Lucky you ozzies got such ignorant cretins to put down, otherwise our cavalry would be stepping all over your kangaroos.

I was more addressing the parasitic tactics employed by the mexican. They bounce up the roads the white man paved.
Ofcourse the natives were the original victims, so the whities are getting what comes around.
Although it should be noted that the mexicans are proving they weren't too decent and respectfull to infringe upon the native americans, they were just incapable.
Whities merely set up enough 7-11s to sustain them for their migration north.

In australia it is south east asians playing the role of the mexican.
And pacific islanders.
The indigenous australians, like the indigenous americans, don't benefit from civilisation.
They live under bridges sniffing petrol.

It's an interesting little dynamic really.

Invert:

And, the main character, forget his name and the actor's name, is also needy when he falls into the group. He became racist because of his father's death. He felt a huge void in his life and filled it with the idealism of the skinhead group. And he was practically the only one that believed the spiel. The others were merely in it for solidarity while he was searching for something deeper.
Edward Norton.

I think you missed my point, they’re all hopelessly needy and bovine- but just notice the difference among each clone.

The most exaggerated ideologue is usually a youth, a female, or someone physically unappealing.
All three are the most in need of some form of love, so their hate is more an intoxicating tribute to camaraderie than it is a hateful disgust for an enemy.

The girlfriend was a bulldog and should be shot, the youths were fucking sloppy, and the fat guy “hated” blacks so much he took out all the black jellybeans from the bowl before he ate from it.


But, he was hardly calm until he examined himself more fully and realized how he was being manipulated. Although, I think he always knew he was being manipulated and was ok with that. He, in fact, used those very same techniques on others. It was the epiphany he felt when he realized that no one else was the idealist that he was that killed his ideals. When he realized that Hitler was a dirty little man that didn't believe in what he was saying but merely a performer. A demagogue.
Dude woke the fuck up and got real

“He will always lack the grace, human understanding, and individual pride to know that performance, acceptance, and admiration are the accolades of fools and social prowess a thing as fickle as those who partake in it.”- gend


And I plan to start a thread on Mr. Hitler. One day. Too depressed this week.

Roman:


But what really burns me about the Mexicans coming over is the corruption they bring, and their tolerance for corruption
No, what really burns you is the syphilis.

At any rate, you’re likelier to be ‘corrupted’ by the lusty nigger who’s just joined the Krypts, ends up having 10 kids by 10 different women all on welfare.
And all those kids will grow up to be just like his daddy.

You realize you’re paying more for the black minority than you are the Mexican?


I'm just glad all the mexicans that spill in this direction drown in the pacific ocean.
It will suck if they ever discover floating wood.
Now that’s damn funny.

Gendanken,


The girlfriend was a bulldog and should be shot, the youths were fucking sloppy, and the fat guy “hated” blacks so much he took out all the black jellybeans from the bowl before he ate from it.

I get you. The above were all ignorant fools who didn't even know what they were doing or why. They were merely reacting and being manipulated but utterly confident that they were their own people.

Norton's character was a different sort. He was full of hatred and need but what he really wanted was meaning. Purpose. He analyzed his actions and knew why he did what he did, even if it was only a rationalization at least he knew while the others didn't even think about such things.

Leaders and followers. A stark difference in the mentality of each.


You know, speaking of movies, ever see American Me? A mexican gang/prison movie?
There was another movie that was more well known that was almost the same movie. What was it called? 'Blood in, blood out', but they changed the name because that was too controversial. Yeah. The new name was 'Bound by Honor'.


“He will always lack the grace, human understanding, and individual pride to know that performance, acceptance, and admiration are the accolades of fools and social prowess a thing as fickle as those who partake in it.”- gend

Who is he, exactly? Did you write this after watching the movie? Or is it a more general characterization?
Nicely said, where ever the inspiration came from.


At any rate, you’re likelier to be ‘corrupted’ by the lusty nigger who’s just joined the Krypts, ends up having 10 kids by 10 different women all on welfare.
And all those kids will grow up to be just like his daddy.

Seems to me that the whole youth of America is corrupted by the same thing so it's not really the sort of thing that one can point fingers to any specific race easily anymore. We can say that rap is the predominant type of music and is derived and mostly performed by blacks, but it has been, and is in the process of being, coopted by white america just like rock and roll was in the past.

By the way, I think that you and Roman are talking about different types of corruption.


And I plan to start a thread on Mr. Hitler. One day. Too depressed this week.

Oh, come on. Cheer the FUCK up. Two hours to go. Are you ready? I've got the cake ready and candles ready to light.

I hope that this ennui passes soon. Why don't you go out and attend a KKK meeting or two. Join in with the fools and lynch a nigger or two. Just go ahead and suspend your disbelief for a minute or two and have at it. Maybe it'll cheer you up a little.



Roman,


But what really burns me about the Mexicans coming over is the corruption they bring, and their tolerance for corruption.

Because we all know that whites are so corruption resistant. No corruption here. No sir.


Lou,


Although it should be noted that the mexicans are proving they weren't too decent and respectfull to infringe upon the native americans, they were just incapable.

Mexicans are the natives. For the most part that is. They're Mestizos(sp?). A Spaniard/Native mix. So, you could say that Mexico is a melting pot. But, a melting pot with a limited amount of ingredients.

This thread probably belongs here in the History section. I assume that because in the early 1900's (or 1890's, I'm not sure) Israel Zangwill wrote a play called 'The Melting Pot', in which one of the lines was 'God is creating the new man, the American' or words to that effect. Zangwill's argument was that the different ethnic groups of Europe, who had been at loggerheads for centuries back across the Atlantic, were starting to come together to form a united race. Since then the argument has gone back and forth about the truth or otherwise of what he said.

What's the opinion of folks out there in forum-land? Is Zangwill correct? Does the melting-pot exist? :)

History suggests he's wishfully dreaming. After all, such hybrid races have already been created, and according to Cavalli-Sforza at least, do not at all reflect the original development of different tribes.

The melting pot is also anti-localization, which makes it problematic from an environmental point of view.

:m:

A whole heap of LA is really just Mexico. When I went to Mexico, the Spanish experience really started in LAX. Coming back through LAX, I didn't feel like I had left Mexico. It's disconcerting to be on American soil and still have everything feel so goddamn foreign. Even Amsterdam is more American than LAX.You obviously have never really been even an honorary member of the Latino community. L.A. is as much like Mexico as Westminster is like Vietnam. They've got the language and a cultural overlay, but they're Americans. Learn their language and discover how they look down on the people who stayed in the old country.
But what really burns me about the Mexicans coming over is the corruption they bring, and their tolerance for corruption.You simply must be kidding! Enron? The 2000 Presidential election? Cheney and Halliburton? Several generations of priests molesting children and getting away with it? The entire federal tax code? The building code scams in most cities? The War on Drugs? You don't think the U.S. is a world-class player in the corruption game? We just play for higher stakes than the people in the Third World do, because we can afford it!

Fraggle,

To be fair, I'm sure that Mexican priests have had their own share of 'altar-boy poontang'.


We just play for higher stakes than the people in the Third World do, because we can afford it!

But, can we afford it? Can we really? That's another topic entirely, of course.

Anyway, it's not that we have less corruption, it's just that we're more adept at covering it up. The corruption is, by and large, covered up by the powers that be and have done so for so long that it's become an art form. The only scandals that come to light nowadays, practically, are those which are meant to come to light by one faction or another. It's all a dreadful ballet.

This is making me remember the State of the Union Address last night. The disgusting partisan politics that grips our country. If there is any more blatant form of corruption than that, then I don't know what it is. All the monkeys on the left applauding madly for every statement whether they personally agree with it or not, and all the monkeys on the left remaining still as the grave regardless of their personal opinion on any particular statement.

This country is built on corruption on top of corruption.


Learn their language and discover how they look down on the people who stayed in the old country.

I've never heard this sentiment before. It's true that I don't know a wide spectrum of immigrants, but I have known several and none of them have expressed this sentiment to me. Perhaps some bear a species of regret for those who remained behind, but never contempt. Hell, with NAFTA Mexico is going to the little US eventually. The peso is already much more valuable than it was in my youth even if it's still less than a dollar. About 11 pesos to the dollar right now. I recall when it was something like 5000 pesos to the dollar.

Edit:
Hmm.
Found an interesting graph on the history of the peso that goes back to 93. It was almost the same as the dollar until 1995. What happened in 95? Was this when NAFTA went into effect? Strange effect it had on the peso.

Here's the link:
http://quote.yahoo.com/m5?s=USD&t=MXN&a=1&c=3

It was the mid 80's that I recall the 5000 peso to the dollar exchange rate.

But what really burns me about the Mexicans coming over is the corruption they bring, and their tolerance for corruption.
Man thats racist, but I suppose that the following are just aberrations in US political history, yes?



http://independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=4496&fcategory_desc=Campaign%20Financing%20and%20Lobbyi ng
Watchdog Groups Criticize Alaska Senator
December 19, 2003
By: Alan Fram
Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) - Government watchdog groups criticized Sen. Ted Stevens on Thursday following a newspaper report that the Senate's senior Republican had grown wealthy from investments with people who benefited from legislation he helped write.
The conservative Citizens Against Government Waste said the Alaskan should resign as chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee



http://www.chicagoist.com/archives/2005/02/03/hired_truck_connected_to_everybody.php#more
Confused? Well, Chicagoist doesn't blame you. But the dizzying connections above revealed through the Hired Truck Probe and other investigations, are a crazy series of links from the sitting Governor all the way to heart of Chicago corruption.



http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761552683_6/New_York.html
N

Corruption and the Progressives
The corruption that was characteristic of the United States in the years after the Civil War flourished in New York. In New York City, William M. Tweed became an important figure in the Tammany Society, the Democratic political machine



http://www.againstcorruption.org/BriefingsItem.asp?id=8668
Property Services Group and Aqua Alliance in New Orleans : Corruption Case

Shucks, more corruption by those northern Mexicans;


http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/1107657908

Embattled Alaska Attorney General Resigns

February 5, 2005 9:45 p.m. EST

By MATT VOLZ, Associated Press Writer

JUNEAU, Alaska - The state attorney general announced his resignation Saturday after months of battling criticism for alleged ethics breaches while shaping an international trade deal.

Gregg Renkes said he wanted to shield his family "from the vicious politics of personal destruction."

Speaking for myself, my ancestry includes Scottish, English, French, Danish, Dutch, and Welsh--all races who were at various points in history--not on speaking term with other, let along marrying terms. So I guess I've just proved my own point.