I have read these comments and theories wich are posted here.I find that there are many different inquisiting minds.The people who post topics here should find the Urantia foundation interesting.The Urantia book was published by the foundation in 1955 and it had many answers to scientific theories not yet posed.Now 45 years has passed and many of the answers have been proven by science.If any of you out there want to learn more contact me at machiaventa@AOL.COM .iWIL ANSWER ALL QUESTIONS.

Do they have a website and if so can you paste the link here please.

There are many links to this topic the main adresse is urantia.org .I would also try http://hometown.aol.com/demosthene/beam.htm You can try www.urantia.org (http://www.urantia.org) and go from there.One more thing use your search engine and look for ubron or urantia or unrantia god art.

Thanx Machiaventa Speaks

Thanks Paul

Your welcome Cris

Please enjoy what you'r about to see and remember to read it with an open mind and it will forever change your life and they way you looked at the world and universe before.

Machiaventa Speaks

Hi Paul,

I consider myself to be a quite open-minded person but I have to admit that I have some problems with excerpts from the "book of Urantia" (I discovered this when doing a search for the word "energy"). I quote:


PAPER 57 - THE ORIGIN OF URANTIA, May 11 1999

line 57: 875,000,000,000 years ago the enormous Andronover nebula number 876,926 was duly initiated. Only the presence of the force organizer and the liaison staff was required to inaugurate the energy whirl which eventually grew into this vast cyclone of space. Subsequent to the initiation of such nebular revolutions, the living force organizers simply withdraw at right angles to the plane of the revolutionary disk, and from that time forward, the inherent qualities of energy insure the progressive and orderly evolution of such a new physical system.

If we both agree that there are 9 zero's in the first number you see there, then this would mean that the "andronover" (andromeda?) nebula was formed 875 billion years ago (I assume that the Urantians use the same decimal system as mostly used in the western world).

Don't you think this number is disturbingly deviating from what other members of the scientific community estimate the age of the universe is ? (15 billion years, give or take an additional 10 billion if you like). Am I missing something here or did I just misinterpretted this text ? Also, why is everything expressed so lyrically ? I am sure the writers of the book were very literate persons, but isn't one of the properties of a good "theory" that it is written as clearly as possible ?

Just my two cents (or two billion if we use other counting systems)...

Crisp


[This message has been edited by Crisp (edited April 05, 2000).]

Dear Crisp,
The age that the book states is correct.What science doesn't realize that what we seem to think is the universe is only a system among many systems contained in a universe,which inturn is contained in a superuniverse.We are only able thru modern tech. to see back only 15 to 30 billion years.There are seven universes in the superuniverse of orvonton.We are in the system of Satania which is in the universe of Nebadon.I am sure these names seem strange to you,yet they are the closest english trans. for a universally spoken language.All of the numbers given in the book in regard to our solar system have been proven to be quite accurate.The dates and times are also correct.Any time you wish to ask a serious question about the book and want to hear more than my answer.Log into www.ubron.org (http://www.ubron.org) .They and I will answer any and all inquiries.

Thanx Machiaventa Speaks

machiaventa, as you said yourself, we are only able to see so far by the limitations of our technology. How then is it that anyone can know that there is more than one universe. Unless you can base these claims on any postulations, evidence, or observations, mathematical or otherwise, I am going to have to say that I can't find the theory of there being seven "universes" (strangely enough there is not a plural version of the word "universe" in my dictionary!) or a "superuniverse" to be credible.

Dear Crisp,
In answer to your question I will say the following.To begin with all things we do see in life require a certain amount of faith.Even the Urantia book with all it's scientific answers requires some leap of faith.To better help you understand it remember that it was translated into english from a language spoken in the universe.This language is used by all worlds and personalities that have advanced far beyond where we are.When any translation is done there will always be some peculuarities.When the book refers to the system of satania it means the milky way.When they refer to the Nebadon universe they mean the entire universe as we know it.This would include all the other galaxies know to us.The superuniverse of Orvonton contains other universes.At this time man is about to find out that what he thought was the known universes size was off by 17,000,000 percent.This dicovery will come about soon,mark my word.Our solar system contains 12 planets and 3 of them can support life as we know.Which three I do not know.Soon the existance of three more planets will soon be discovered.Please do not discount this book it is the most powerful revelation since Jesus of Nazareth.Almost every date given in the book has been found to be accurate. the rest we have no way of checking.Tanks for your input.

Paul/Machiaventa

Also go www.ubron.org (http://www.ubron.org) If you wish to register and post questions and topics to be seen and answered my many book readers and foundation members.

again machiaventa you have made a string of very incredible assertions. Please back them up with evidence. Unless you do I will have no choice but to diregard not only your "foundation" but also you as a credible source of information. This "Urantia" thing is a spot on your reputation here.

To the D.C.K.
As with all things there is a certain amount of faith.I could not prove with out a doubt that the sun would rise on 4/11/00.Yet you would believe me if I told you it would.And in the end I would be proven correct.Reading just bits here and there of this book will only wet your curiosity or dampen your ability to comprehend it completely.Just try reading the history of Urantia section first then tell where my credibilty stands.Remember I thought you were smart,please reaffirm my suspicion.

Paul/Machiaventa Speaks

equating a claim such as "we will soon find that our estimates of the size of the universe are off by 17,000,000%" to "the sun will rise on 4/11/00" does not demonstrate sound logic. One, based on the very basis of the scientific method (the future will resemble the past), the sunrise assertion is correct. One must admit that the other is sadly unbelievable. However, just so that I do not argue from blindness, I will look over more of the Urantia book. Though assuming that the future will resemble the past, from what I see so far, the book will only continue to be filled with rediculous jargon about unproveable and downright absurd assertions.

That is all I ask,for doubt will soon be replaced by awe.Remember that the books will give you the true details to many stories in the bible also.Especially the life and teachins of Christ Michael/Jesus of Nazareth.

Machiaventa Speaks :D :D :D

DCK,

Your stance against the Urantia book is welcome. I have held my tongue but now feel compelled to enter the discussion.

I have read a fair amount of this so called revelation and answer to all questions. I have found similar to what you are encountering, a cleverly worded document that offers a plausible account of our existence to naive readers.

Some of the proported facts are based on know science and can therefore be substantiated, however there is also a great amount of pseudo science included and to anyone who is not trained in these areas it can all blur into probability.

On the spiritual front it offers nothing more or new to what has been on offer in the past by similar although less comprehensive works. It speaks of each soul on each planet or each mortal being able through becoming spiritually aware and having their natures transformed by a "personalised thought adjuster" transcending through spiritual levels to become as one with the ancient of days or the father as did Jesus.

Of the focal point of the Christian faith which is the cross of Christ, His blood spilt for our sins, His lash's endured for our healing and his physical body resurrection which defeated death and hell it says:

Quote:
Let us forever clarify the concept of the resurrection of Jesus by making the following statements:

1. His material or physical body was not a part of the resurrected personality. When Jesus came forth from the tomb, his body of flesh remained undisturbed in the sepulchre. He emerged from the burial tomb without moving the stones before the entrance and without disturbing the seals of Pilate.

2. He did not emerge from the tomb as a spirit nor as Michael of Nebadon; he did not appear in the form of the Creator Sovereign, such as he had had before his incarnation in the likeness of mortal flesh on Urantia.

3. He did come forth from this tomb of Joseph in the very likeness of the morontia personalities of those who, as resurrected morontia ascendant beings, emerge from the resurrection halls of the first mansion world of this local system of Satania. And the presence of the Michael memorial in the center of the vast court of the resurrection halls of mansonia number one leads us to conjecture that the Master's resurrection on Urantia was in some way fostered on this, the first of the system mansion worlds.

Also:

Quote:
The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the "empty tomb." It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.

The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the "dust to dust," without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.

The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.

THESE STATEMENTS ARE AN OUTRIGHT LIE OF THE DEVIL !!!

CHRIST IS RISEN AND SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER !!!

Although preaching a form of Holiness and Christ this book denies the very literal and physical resurection of my Lord and Saviour Jesus and by so doing it seeks to contort the appearance of a physically risen Jesus to Mary and then to the 12 whereby the doubtful Thomas thrusts his hand to Jesus side and feels the scar of His piercing.

It seeks to place another Gospel before the reader of which the true word of God warns, and by doing so it seeks to lessen the power of the Gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with him.

Galatians 1:
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 17:
2 And Paul, as he generally did, went in to them, and on three Sabbath days had discussions with them from the holy Writings,
3 Saying to them clearly and openly that Christ had to be put to death and come back to life again; and that this Jesus, whom, he said, I am preaching to you, is the Christ.

Romans 8:
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

1 Corinthians 15:
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Colossians 2:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Colossians 3:
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

John 20:
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The word risen that is used has the following meanings and infers a physical resurection.

450 anisthmi anistemi an-is'-tay-mee

from 303 and 2476; TDNT-1:368,60; v

AV-arise 38, rise 19, rise up 16, rise again 13, raise up 11, stand up 8, raise up again 2, misc 5; 112

1) to cause to rise up, raise up
1a) raise up from laying down
1b) to raise up from the dead
1c) to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward
2) to rise, stand up
2a) of persons lying down, of persons lying on the ground
2b) of persons seated
2c) of those who leave a place to go elsewhere
2c1) of those who prepare themselves for a journey
2d) of the dead
3) at arise, appear, stand forth
3a) of kings prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents
3b) of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, or to undertake some business, or attempt something against others
3c) to rise up against any one

1453 egeirw egeiro eg-i'-ro

probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); TDNT-2:333,195; v

AV-rise 36, raise 28, arise 27, raise up 23, rise up 8, rise again 5, raise again 4, misc 10; 141

1) to arouse, cause to rise
1a) to arouse from sleep, to awake
1b) to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
1c) to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.
1d) to raise up, produce, cause to appear
1d1) to cause to appear, bring before the public
1d2) to raise up, stir up, against one
1d3) to raise up i.e. cause to be born
1d4) of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect

386 anastasiv anastasis an-as'-tas-is

from 450; TDNT-1:371,60; n f

AV-resurrection 39, rising again 1, that should rise 1, raised to life again + 1537 1; 42

1) a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)
2) a rising from the dead
2a) that of Christ
2b) that of all men at the end of this present age
2c) the resurrection of certain ones history who were restored to life (#Heb 11:35)


Resurrection of Christ

One of the cardinal facts and doctrines of the gospel. If Christ be not risen, our faith is vain #1Co 15:14 The whole of the New Testament revelation rests on this as an historical fact. On the day of Pentecost Peter argued the necessity of Christ's resurrection from the prediction in #Ps 16:1ff. #Ac 2:24-28 In his own discourses, also, our Lord clearly intimates his resurrection #Mt 20:19 Mr 9:9 #Mr 14:28 Lu 18:33 Joh 2:19-22 The evangelists give circumstantial accounts of the facts connected with that event, and the apostles, also, in their public teaching largely insist upon it. Ten different appearances of our risen Lord are recorded in the New Testament. They may be arranged as follows:
1. To Mary Magdalene at the sepulchre alone. This is recorded at length only by John #Joh 20:11-18 and alluded to by Mark #Mr 16:9-11
2. To certain women, "the other Mary, " Salome, Joanna, and others, as they returned from the sepulchre. Matthew #Mt 28:1-10 alone gives an account of this. (Comp.) #Mr 16:1-8 Lu 24:1-11
3. To Simon Peter alone on the day of the resurrection. #Lu 24:34 1Co 15:5
4. To the two disciples on the way to Emmaus on the day of the resurrection, recorded fully only by Luke #Lu 24:13-35 Comp. #Mr 16:12,13
5. To the ten disciples (Thomas being absent) and others "with them, " at Jerusalem on the evening of the resurrection day. One of the evangelists gives an account of this appearance, #Joh 20:19-24
6. To the disciples again (Thomas being present) at Jerusalem #Mr 16:14-18 Lu 24:33-40 Joh 20:26-28 See also #1Co 15:5
7. To the disciples when fishing at the Sea of Galilee. Of this appearance also John #Joh 21:1-23 alone gives an account.
8. To the eleven, and above 500 brethren at once, at an appointed place in Galilee #1Co 15:6 comp. #Mt 28:16-20
9. To James, but under what circumstances we are not informed #1Co 15:7
10. To the apostles immediately before the ascension. They accompanied him from Jerusalem to Mount Olivet, and there they saw him ascend "till a cloud received him out of their sight" #Mr 16:19 Lu 24:50-52 Ac 1:4-10 It is worthy of note that it is distinctly related that on most of these occasions our Lord afforded his disciples the amplest opportunity of testing the fact of his resurrection. He conversed with them face to face. They touched him #Mt 28:9 Lu 24:39 Joh 20:27 and he ate bread with them #Lu 24:42,43 Joh 21:12,13
11. In addition to the above, mention might be made of Christ's manifestation of himself to Paul at Damascus, who speaks of it as an appearance of the risen Saviour #Ac 9:3-9,17 1Co 15:8 9:1 It is implied in the words of Luke #Ac 1:3 that there may have been other appearances of which we have no record.

The resurrection is spoken of as the act
1. of God the Father #Ps 16:10 Ac 2:24 3:15 Ro 8:11 Eph 1:20 #Col 2:12 Heb 13:20
2. of Christ himself #Joh 2:19 10:18
3. of the Holy Spirit #1Pe 3:18

The resurrection is a public testimony of Christ's release from his undertaking as surety, and an evidence of the Father's acceptance of his work of redemption. It is a victory over death and the grave for all his followers. The importance of Christ's resurrection will be seen when we consider that if he rose the gospel is true, and if he rose not it is false. His resurrection from the dead makes it manifest that his sacrifice was accepted. Our justification was secured by his obedience to the death, and therefore he was raised from the dead #Ro 4:25 His resurrection is a proof that he made a full atonement for our sins, that his sacrifice was accepted as a satisfaction to divine justice, and his blood a ransom for sinners. It is also a pledge and an earnest of the resurrection of all believers #Ro 8:11 #1Co 6:14 15:47-49 Php 3:21 1Jo 3:2 As he lives, they shall live also. It proved him to be the Son of God, inasmuch as it authenticated all his claims #Joh 2:19 10:17 "If Christ did not rise, the whole scheme of redemption is a failure, and all the predictions and anticipations of its glorious results for time and for eternity, for men and for angels of every rank and order, are proved to be chimeras. 'But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept.' Therefore the Bible is true from Genesis to Revelation. The kingdom of darkness has been overthrown, Satan has fallen as lightning from heaven, and the triumph of truth over error, of good over evil, of happiness over misery is for ever secured." Hodge. With reference to the report which the Roman soldiers were bribed #Mt 28:12-14 to circulate concerning Christ's resurrection, "his disciples came by night and stole him away while we slept, " Matthew Henry in his "Commentary, " under #Joh 20:1-10 fittingly remarks, "The grave-clothes in which Christ had been buried were found in very good order, which serves for an evidence that his body was not 'stolen away while men slept.' Robbers of tombs have been known to take away 'the clothes' and leave the body; but none ever took away 'the body' and left the clothes, especially when they were 'fine linen' and new #Mr 15:46 Any one would rather choose to carry a dead body in its clothes than naked. Or if they that were supposed to have stolen it would have left the grave-clothes behind, yet it cannot be supposed they would find leisure to 'fold up the linen.' "


Resurrection of the Dead

1. Will be simultaneous both of the just and the unjust #Da 12:2 #Joh 5:28,29 Ro 2:6-16 2Th 1:6-10
2. The qualities of the resurrection body will be different from those of the body laid in the grave #1Co 15:53,54 Php 3:21
3. but its identity will nevertheless be preserved. It will still be the same body #1Co 15:42-44 which rises again.
4. As to the nature of the resurrection body,
a. it will be spiritual #1Co 15:44 i.e., a body adapted to the use of the soul in its glorified state, and to all the conditions of the heavenly state;
b. glorious, incorruptible, and powerful #1Co 15:54
c. like unto the glorified body of Christ #Php 3:21
d. immortal #Re 21:4
5. Christ's resurrection secures and illustrates that of his people."
a. Because his resurrection seals and consummates his redemptive power; and the redemption of our persons involves the redemption of our bodies #Ro 8:23
b. Because of our federal and vital union with Christ #1Co 15:21,22 1Th 4:14
c. Because of his Spirit which dwells in us making our bodies his members #1Co 6:15 Ro 8:11
d. Because Christ by covenant is Lord both of the living and the dead #Ro 14:9
e. This same federal and vital union of the Christian with Christ likewise causes the resurrection of the believer to be similar to as well as consequent upon that of Christ" #1Co 15:49 #Php 3:21 1Jo 3:2

Dear H2o,
When I started to read your replie I was giving the benifit I give all people,that is I presume them to be intelligent until they show me otherwise.Well mr. water the more I read your comment the more I came to the conclusion that your not as smart as you think.Too believe in a loving God and in the same breath speak of a hell which you attribute to his creation is absurd.To say there is a devil is anthropomorphic.The invention of hell and a devil might have been neccessary at one time,it is certainly not needed now.You seem to exhibit the same fault as most of mankind,the inability to change or cope with change.The DCK is probaly smart enough to see through your ranting and ravings.What where you afraid of?That he might find the Urantia book interesting enough to read it all the way through.It is obvious that you did not,or you would not have made such absurd statements.People like you probably believe that stigmata is the work of God.

Machiaventa Speaks/

www.urantia.org (http://www.urantia.org) :D :D :D :D

Hi Paul,

Now this is an interesting reply... One member of a religious sect (and lets not forget that the book of Urantia gives its own religious interpretation of reality) accusing that a member of another religious sect (Christianity - or whatever you wanna call it) is wrong... Hello kettel ? You're black.

As a member of yet another religious sect (let's call this one "scientific community") I suggest dropping the "I'm right and you're wrong" discussion before it even develops since fundamental paradigmatic differences as shown here cannot be debated with common sense (suggested reading: Kuhn, Thomas Samuel "Structure of Scientific Revolutions", 1968, New York).

This is not to prevent the undoubtably very educating and entertaining discussion, but hopefully to make everybody realize the truth: nobody is right! (including the christian, urantian, scientific or any other community). Perhaps this would be a more interesting point to debate about: the final goal, and the achieving of this goal, of any form of science.

Bye!

Crisp


[This message has been edited by Crisp (edited April 12, 2000).]

Dear Crisp,
You are so right.I only wish to state that maybe we both might be right about the same things.What I should have said is that I believe the Bible is written for people who never question things or ask for details.For most people to understand the Urantia book,they must have an excellent education.To understand the bible you only have to believe in one's own particular secular ideology.Insn't strange that both books have almost the same set of commandments.Any way I never intened to argue just to point out there is another source of information out there .

Machiaventa Speaks :D :D :D

Crisp,



the truth: nobody is right! (including the christian, urantian, scientific or any other community)


Think again! Kuhn is old news. Suggested reading: Logic of Scientific Discovery by Karl R. Popper, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/041507892X/ref=sim_books/002-1431961-1977817">here's a link to the amazon.com page for it.</a>



Perhaps this would be a more interesting point to debate about: the final goal, and the achieving of this goal, of any form of science.


Easy: a complete theory of everything is the final goal. Achievability is a matter of assymptotic approximation (see the book above for details.)

PS: Popper's self-proclaimed destruction of inductivism doesn't stand, and I can have him for lunch on that issue any day; however, his analysis of falsificationism is pretty good, which is what's relevant here.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited April 13, 2000).]

Dear Paul,

Thankyou for taking the time to read my post, I am not surprised in the least by the conclusion you reached regarding it and in actual fact I was expecting something along these lines. Your presumption about my lack of intelligence is taking the argument away from the topic and trying to place it at a personal and individual level of insult. I will not stoop to name calling or attack of an individuals character or level of intelligence, I will however address specifics of what you have said regarding my Lord and God and regarding the stance of the Urantia book. If you are going to take this as a personal attack then I suggest you stop reading NOW as what I have to say may upset your views.


Quote:
Too believe in a loving God and in the same breath speak of a hell which you attribute to his creation is absurd.To say there is a devil is anthropomorphic.The invention of hell and a devil might have been neccessary at one time,it is certainly not needed now.


Sorry Paul but the place called Hell is real and the person of the devil, satan, lucifer or what ever title you wish to give him is also real. The Urantia book is quick to use all the nice stuff that Jesus said about heaven and how to have a relationship with God but it ignores the whole counsel of God. Jesus himself spoke of hell as a literal place, He gave many parables of its reality, He taught that the way to avoid it was through obedience of God the Father in love and believing in Him as the lamb of God sent to die for the sins of mankind, "If you love me you will obey my commands". The urantia book shy's away from the truth and reality of this place just as it does from the truth of who Jesus really is and what He really achieved through His death and resurrection. Its quick to attempt to place itself as an authority on these matters through plagiarising quotes and Scriptures and distorting their original context and authority from the Word of God but it fail miserably to show the whole counsel of God the Father by dancing around eternal issues. The same Jesus it claims to have in depth knowledge of is the one who spoke strongly on the topics of death, hell and the devil in an effort to show people that the wages of their sins would be death. Sound to harsh? I would suggest that people try looking it up in the Bible themselves and find the reality of what Jesus taught and not just some fictitious story wrapped up in marshmallow words to aplease the conscious of fallen mankind.

If this book is going to make reference to the works and deeds of my saviour and misrepresent them then I will stand against it and speak the truth of what God the Father has shown. It can not claim to be an authority or the "answer to all" when it fails to address specifics of what Jesus said. So to help you and others out a bit with some more ranting and ravings please read some things that Jesus said about these topics.

But before I do if you want to know how Love fits into this its because the Lord corrects those He Loves, and if we are obedient to Him we accept that correction. So why does he correct? What does he correct us for? He corrects us because we all have sinned and fallen short of His glory, He corrects us in love so that we can be brought back to a place of restoration with Him through the life of Christ, the death of Christ and the resurrection of Christ. He corrects because He knows what the consequences of our sins will be, eternal separation from Him. The wages of our sin of our lack of obedience, of our arrogance is eternal death and no one knows this more than God. Hell was not created for man it was created for satan and his demons, and we by our transgressions have placed ourselves into the camp of satan. We have transgressed Gods set laws, we are the transgressors because we have chosen to go our own ways and not to follow or live within the laws that have been laid down by God the Father. We have chosen the enemy as our master and the only way out is through faith in the cross of Christ and His resurrection. You know us irrational Christians always harp on about Gods love but there are few who really understand what price was paid and why. God so loved the world, He so loves each and every person that He gave His Son as a ransom for our sins. His son in obedience paid the price for our transgressions and by doing so released those who choose to receive from the bondage of sin and death, from the wages of our sinfulness which are eternal damnation. Hard pill to swallow isn't it? Hard to admit that we have blown it hey? Hard to say that we as mankind with all our technology and inventions don't got all the answers for the worlds problems..... God knew this would happen way before He created us yet He being true to His creative nature still made man as well as satan. And knowing that we would blow it He even provided a way out if we only but receive it. JESUS, the real reason He came and the real victory He won.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mark 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mark 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luke 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
Luke 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
2 Corinthians 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
1 Thessalonians 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1 Timothy 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Quote:
What where you afraid of?That he might find the Urantia book interesting enough to read it all the way through.It is obvious that you did not,or you would not have made such absurd statements.People like you probably believe that stigmata is the work of God.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I hope that answers your question as to who I fear and revere.

People like me........mmmmmm, I assume by what followed you mean narrow minded, bigoted, religious, unintelligent so and so's. Well people like me are not to worried by the name calling or inferences made towards us, we do however stand up and shout when someone or something claims to represent God the Father but fails to teach the whole counsel of God. That is it fails to show to a lost and dying world the truth of the character and nature of God the great I AM.

Paul I would suggest that if you really want to make comments about me as a person then you read some of the history on me in this place, it will give you more ammo to work with.

I pray that my Lord will cause you to see the truth rather than to just hear what Machiaventa Speaks.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Boiling H2o,
I certainly did get you going din't I?Tell me this,do you type all of that stuff or do you attach it from some file?All that you have shown me is nothing but parables and euphanisms.Tell me one place where Jesus spoke of hell in the bible.Not where some disciple said he did.The devil you speak of was cast into the prison world on Jerusem and at this time is being judged or awaiting judgement.There is no Hell,there never was.There is however a place called earth which one could pretty much aproximate hell,as the judeo-christian version states it to be.Have you noticed that the American prison system is the archetype of the judeo-christian version of what hell out to be like.My God loves his children as a father loves his,God would never stop loving us no matter what sins we seem to commit.All he asks is faith in his love to enjoy all that he has planned for us,and to do his divine will.Christ Michael/Jesus could have left this world in what ever way he chose.He did not have to die for our sins.If he did as you say then all of those who had sinned are dead and long gone,have you ever thought about that.Thankyou for your input though.

Paul/Machiaventa :D :D :D

------------------


[This message has been edited by paul defourneaux (edited April 12, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
[B]Boiling H2o,

Paul don't take my tone as me attacking you or reacting to you as a person, I am reacting to the claims of the book in question and its erroneous claim to be the answer to all questions, scientific, spiritual, physical etc when it manipulates actual truths and teachings found in the very Word of God, the Bible. It teaches half truths dressed up in a multitude of flowery words and by doing so it teaches a lie.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
Tell me this,do you type all of that stuff or do you attach it from some file?

Half and half, I have a digital version of the Bible in various languages and with original Greek and Hebrew along with their equivalent English word definitions. I do use it to cut and past passages into what I am trying to show to people.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
All that you have shown me is nothing but parables and euphanisms.Tell me one place where Jesus spoke of hell in the bible.Not where some disciple said he did.


Paul please look up some of the Gospel versus I quoted in your Bible if you have one, if not let me know and I will show you where to get the digital one I use. You will find Jesus speaks clearly HIMSELF about the reality of hell. Yes Jesus spoke in many parables so that He could communicate complex spiritual truths in a way that everyday people could understand with a little bit of thought and effort.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
The devil you speak of was cast into the prison world on Jerusem and at this time is being judged or awaiting judgement.

2 Peter 2:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Satan

Adversary; accuser.
1. When used as a proper name, the Hebrew word so rendered has the article "the adversary" #Job 1:6-12 2:1-7
2. In the New Testament it is used as interchangeable with Diabolos, or the devil, and is so used more than thirty times. He is also called
a. "the dragon, "" the old serpent" #Re 12:9 20:2
b. "the prince of this world" #Joh 12:31 14:30
c. "the prince of the power of the air" #Eph 2:2
d. "the god of this world" #2Co 4:4
e. "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" #Eph 2:2
3. The distinct personality of Satan and his activity among men are thus obviously recognized.
a. He tempted our Lord in the wilderness #Mt 4:1-11
b. He is "Beelzebub, the prince of the devils" #Mt 12:24
c. He is "the constant enemy of God, of Christ, of the divine kingdom, of the followers of Christ, and of all truth; full of falsehood and all malice, and exciting and seducing to evil in every possible way."
4. His power is very great in the world.
a. He is a "roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" #1Pe 5:8
b. Men are said to be "taken captive by him" #2Ti 2:26
c. Christians are warned against his "devices" #2Co 2:11 and called on to "resist" him #Jas 4:7
d. Christ redeems his people from "him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" #Heb 2:14
e. Satan has the "power of death, " not as lord, but simply as executioner.

Devil

(Gr. diabolos), a slanderer, the arch-enemy of man's spiritual interest #Job 1:6 Re 2:10 Zec 3:1 He is called also "the accuser of the brethen" #Re 12:10 In #Le 17:7 the word "devil" is the translation of the Hebrew _sair_, meaning a "goat" or "satyr" #Isa 13:21 34:14 alluding to the wood-daemons, the objects of idolatrous worship among the heathen. In #De 32:17 Ps 106:37 it is the translation of Hebrew _shed_, meaning lord, and idol, regarded by the Jews as a "demon, " as the word is rendered in the Revised Version. In the narratives of the Gospels regarding the "casting out of devils" a different Greek word (daimon) is used. In the time of our Lord there were frequent cases of demoniacal possession #Mt 12:25-30 Mr 5:1-20 #Lu 4:35 10:18 etc.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
There is no Hell,there never was. There is however a place called earth which one could pretty much aproximate hell,as the judeo-christian version states it to be.Have you noticed that the American prison system is the archetype of the judeo-christian version of what hell out to be like.


Hell
Derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered:
1. Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask, " "demand; " hence insatiableness #Pr 30:15,16 It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times #Ge 37:35 42:38 44:29,31 1Sa 2:6 etc. The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule. In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell, " the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" #Pr 21:16 It is:
a. the abode of the wicked #Nu 16:33 Job 24:19 Ps 9:17 31:17 etc.;
b. of the good #Ps 16:10 30:3 49:15 86:13 etc. Sheol is described as:
a. deep #Job 11:8
b. dark #Job 10:21,22
c. with bars #Job 17:16
d. The dead "go down" to it #Nu 16:30,33 Eze 31:15,16,17
2. The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison #1Pe 3:19 with gates and bars and locks #Mt 16:18 Re 1:18 and it is downward #Mt 11:23 Lu 10:15 The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise #Lu 23:43 They are also said to be in Abraham's bosom #Lu 16:22
3. Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost #Mt 23:33 The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions #Mt 8:12 13:42 22:13 25:30 Lu 16:24 etc.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
My God loves his children as a father loves his,God would never stop loving us no matter what sins we seem to commit.All he asks is faith in his love to enjoy all that he has planned for us,and to do his divine will.Christ Michael/Jesus could have left this world in what ever way he chose.He did not have to die for our sins.If he did as you say then all of those who had sinned are dead and long gone,have you ever thought about that.Thankyou for your input though.

Love
In #1Co 13:1ff. the apostle sets forth the excellency of love, as the word "charity" there is rendered in the Revised Version. Charity better captures the biblical idea of love, for charity is love in action for the glory of God not a mere warm mushy feeling as we use the word today.

Redemption - The ultimate act of Gods love

Romans 5:
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Redemption
The purchase back of something that had been lost, by the payment of a ransom. The Greek word so rendered is _apolutrosis_, a word occurring nine times in Scripture, and always with the idea of a ransom or price paid, i.e., redemption by a lutron (see) #Mt 20:28 Mr 10:45 There are instances in the LXX. Version of the Old Testament of the use of _lutron_ in man's relation to man #Le 19:20 25:51 Ex 21:30 #Nu 35:31,32 Isa 45:13 Pr 6:35 and in the same sense of man's relation to God #Nu 3:49 18:15 There are many passages in the New Testament which represent Christ's sufferings under the idea of a ransom or price, and the result thereby secured is a purchase or redemption (comp.) #Ac 20:28 1Co 6:19,20 Ga 3:13 4:4,5 Eph 1:7 #Col 1:14 1Ti 2:5,6 Ti 2:14 Heb 9:12 1Pe 1:18,19 Re 5:9 The idea running through all these texts, however various their reference, is that of payment made for our redemption. The debt against us is not viewed as simply cancelled, but is fully paid. Christ's blood or life, which he
surrendered for them, is the "ransom" by which the deliverance of his people from the servitude of sin and from its penal consequences is secured. It is the plain doctrine of Scripture that "Christ saves us neither by the mere exercise of power, nor by his doctrine, nor by his example, nor by the moral influence which he exerted, nor by any subjective influence on his people, whether natural or mystical, but as a satisfaction to divine justice, as an expiation for sin, and as a ransom from the curse and authority of the law, thus reconciling us to God by making it consistent with his perfection to exercise mercy toward sinners"


[QUOTE]Originally posted by paul defourneaux:
He did not have to die for our sins.If he did as you say then all of those who had sinned are dead and long gone,have you ever thought about that.


Yes, and God has already answered this. But instead of being critical of the Bible and God I went searching for the answer.

Ephesians 4:
8 For this reason he says, He went up on high, taking his prisoners with him, and gave freely to men.
9 (Now this, He went up, what is it but that he first went down into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who went down is the same who went up far over all the heavens so that he might make all things complete.)

Revelation 1:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He went down into the bowls of hell itself as the faultless Lamb of God, the final sacrifice and sin offering for mankind. He confronted the evil one and took back the keys of hell and death that we as fallen sinful humans had placed in the devils control at the fall. In doing so He destroyed the power that satan had over all who are dead and all who are to die, Jesus set the captives free. PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE and He can only do so if we accept His offer to do so in our eternal lives.

Hebrews 2:
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

1 Corinthians 15:
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Matthew 18:
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Romans 5:
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
2 Corinthians 5:
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 1:
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Galatians 3:
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Ephesians 1:
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Paul if you read the Bible you will be surprised by how much the urantia book has borrowed from it. So should this make the urantia book equal to it? By no means does it even come close. Its not that it does not show some truth but that it does not represent the full counsel or full truth of God's Word and by distortion it seeks to nullify the work of the one around whom the whole Word of God revolves - Jesus. The whole Word of God revolves around His plan of salvation and redemption, it revolves around the whole character and nature of the great I AM that I AM. All of this is revealed and fulfilled in the life, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. All the words of the patriarchs, the prophets, the laws of God, Gods nature and character are personified in Jesus and the work He came and achieved. Its a glorious plan that we so often fail to or choose not to see, sadly to our own detriment.

Again I can only hope and pray that my Lord, the Lord of all Glory, the Alpha and the Omega - Jesus will open your eyes to Him and shut your ears to the other.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Hi Boris,


Think again! Kuhn is old news. Suggested reading: Logic of Scientific Discovery by Karl R. Popper, here's a link to the amazon.com page for it.

Actually, on a chronological scale, Kuhn succeeds Popper, and so do most of his ideas. The falsification of science (as Popper first described it in... i think 1934) is no longer possible in Kuhn's vision of scientific revolution, simply because, according to Kuhn, there's no common frame of reference (paradigm) to talk in. There's a 30-year difference between the two visions so I'd say that Popper is the old news ;).


Easy: a complete theory of everything is the final goal. Achievability is a matter of assymptotic approximation (see the book above for details.)

I totally agree with the ultimate and complete theory of everything, it's obvious that this is what science is aiming at. The problem I have here is that this goal cannot be achieved. I am glad you dropped the word "approximation" here (even though it's in a difference context) since that's exactly what will destroy our theory of everything. For everything we see in the world and universe, we create a mathematical model that describes it up to an accuracy that we choose. But you inevitably introduce errors in this model (eg. harmonic approximation in classical mechanics, statistical approximations in statistical mechanics, etc) so one day or another, whether it is tomorrow in in 300 years, we will have the ability to see past these approximations (because the detecting equipment has gone supersensitive) and then we will have to adjust the theory once again (ironically, this looks a lot like Popper's falsification of theories :)). Every theory that makes approximations is doomed to fail one day.

Ofcourse, for now we're stuck with only a couple of Cray's to do the heavy math so we are obliged to do apprxoimations; otherwise we couldn't even solve a simple problem like a mass on a spring (anharmonic effects etc).


PS: Popper's self-proclaimed destruction of inductivism doesn't stand, and I can have him for lunch on that issue any day; however, his analysis of falsificationism is pretty good, which is what's relevant here.

I agree that falsificationism is one of the most common ways to advance in science, but I think that Popper is a bit naive. Kuhn puts it more realistically, saying that there are many other ways in which science can evolve (falsificationism being one of them).

Personally I think of scientific revolution as a "Popper-Kuhn" mix, in which falsificationism leads to paradigm shifts, which is more the Kuhn vision then. (see <A HREF="http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2ULLCA34LT&mscssid=QDTTN3Q521S92LPW001PQUW780MK23K6&sourceid=00266206460639244575&bfdate=04%2D13%2D2000+07%3A 41%3A27&srefer=&isbn=0226458083"> here </A> for the Amazon link to Kuhn's book ;)).

Bye!

Crisp

Hi TonyH20,


Again I can only hope and pray that my Lord, the Lord of all Glory, the Alpha and the Omega - Jesus will open your eyes to Him and shut your ears to the other.

*sigh*.

The next we're going to hear is that christianity promotes brotherhood and is open for all other kinds of religion ? Or have your ears been shut too violently by Jesus ?

(Sidenote: I do not support Paul and his Urantia book in this matter, but I have to admit that he has proven himself to be more open minded than yourself. I think you should really listen to him and perhaps even get some more insight in your own religious book, the bible, for I cannot believe that you completely can comprehend a philosphical book like that in one lifetime).

(Sidenote to sidenote: I do not believe in reincarnation :)... So don't start interpretting the "one lifetime" thingy in some wierd way ;)).

Bye!

Crisp

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crisp:
[B]Hi TonyH20,

*sigh*.

The next we're going to hear is that christianity promotes brotherhood and is open for all other kinds of religion ? Or have your ears been shut too violently by Jesus ?


Hi Crisp,

Yes I understand what you mean and the stance I have taken on this issue may reflect a single mindedness. You are right it does! And it was meant to!

So I guess that puts me in the narrow minded, bigoted arena again....or does it?

Let me clarify what we are talking about here. We are discussing fundamental and doctrinal truths on which the very faith of Christianity is based. They are:

1. The very physical and actual resurrection of Jesus Christ.

2. The main authority on this subject being the Bible and the truth of it.

If this means that I come across as being unaccepting of "alternative" (which in actuality is nothing new) views to support the truth of my faith then so be it. If I having seen what I have seen and knowing what I know were then to preach or accept or teach another way I would be lying to all who read this when I know the actuality and reality of the truth. I would be found in error, and if this comes across as intolerance its because of my staunch belief that there is only one mediator between God and man, that person being Jesus Christ. There I go being narrow minded again :D , but seriously if I was to say that you could make it on your own or another way, if I were to ignore the truth then I will have failed in my very own faith. I know more than you probably realise just how dividing and intolerant my stance can be having been physically assaulted because of it. But let me assure you also that I am a very accepting and understanding person, I am not as intolerant as my posts may have you think, I will defend the truth but at the same time I will attempt to understand where the other party is coming from, I may not agree with it, and I probably will not accept there views, but I will try to understand. The problem I have with the Urantia book is one from a faith perspective in that it sets itself up as the authority on the life of Christ and His purpose for coming to planet Earth. It takes a very one sided approach that I have seen a million times over in other texts including Hindu, Buddist, many of the ism's etc. By doing so it stands against the real truth of the Bible and as such I must take issue.

Crisp, true faith and understanding of what was and is achieved at the cross does not allow for religious tolerance, I'm sorry if you think that's harsh. But when you know the truth and when you have stood face to face with deception then you can see very, very clearly. If you want to understand what I'm talking about more or understand where I'm coming from and why I'm as determined as I am in my faith then please read Overview and Dreams and Visions in the religious discussion. I know what I know and I know who I am in the great I AM. If this means that my ears are violently shut due to this then that will remain the case, but please believe me if you knew Him like I know Him..... well I can live in hope that you could see why I do what I do. I as a person do not like seeing what I say upset people, I don't like the idea of Paul thinking that I'm a narrow minded religo nut case who believes in paranormal tricks of the evil one. Quote Paul: "People like you probably believe that stigmata is the work of God." It would be good if he also read what I really believe, but I think that may challenge his beliefs.

As far as open mindedness goes then yes Paul is more open minded, and being open minded does not in anyway convince me of the depth of a persons convictions in what they proclaim as truth. As I have said above the truth is something that does not sway or waver in its conviction and acceptance or tolerance of alternative ideas does not show conviction. Also while I'm thinking of it don't mistake conviction with lack of compassion and empathy, which is an entirely different topic.

Oh I guess you or someone will bring up that its exactly this kind of intolerance that caused all the religious wars etc, etc. Maybe intolerance did cause wars, I think history shows this to be the case but conviction in ones beliefs is not to be used as an excuse for violence. I stand with Jesus on this when He told Peter to put the sword away when His accusers came to seize Him. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword, I can not force my convictions on any person they have the free will to either accept or reject the message and the strength of my stance regarding it. Many mistakes have been made in the name of religion, many innocent lives destroyed that could have otherwise been saved through compassion and understanding while maintaining the truth of ones own convictions.


Regarding insight into my own religious book the Bible, yes I agree with you that it will take more than this life time to fully understand and comprehend all that the Lord has done. Even so this should not preclude me or anyone from defending that which we have had revealed to us and do understand. And no I didn't take the lifetime thingy in some weird way :D

Allcare

Tony H2o

Well,well,well,
I don't know who to adresse this to.I cetainly did not mean start this type of discourse between people.I just feel that there are some people out there who think there is a more indepth explaination of who we are and where we came from,other than the bible.And to state that this book[urantia]is nonsense goes in both directions.The bible is like a fairy tale explaination my parents used to tell me when I would ask where babies come from.In turn I would ask who told the stork dad screwed mom?To those who feel this way the Urantia book will help you,to those who don't all I can say is I tried.
Machiaventa Speaks :p :p :p

Hi Paul,

As this is informally addressed I will informally respond.

Its nice to see you have a heart that wishes to offer hope to people that are searching for answers, even though I may not agree with your answer. And at the risk of sounding like Lori :D "the bible explains all", you've just got to look for it in there. Getting to know the God of the Bible takes some effort, He doesn't want spoilt rotten children who demand to be spoon fed. In so doing it builds character, the Fathers character and determination.

Don't stress about the way this discussion has headed, you'll find that it's common place around here for it to take that path. If you post up here you'll need to be ready to substantiate what you say and believe, and sometimes things get hot.

Anyway I hope you could see the message I was trying to get across in my posts. I try not to take a personal attack approach but inevitably sometimes do. If I have offended you I am sorry, if the truth of what I believe has spoken to you then I do not apologise for that.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Paul,
(I like the way your name refers to the biblical one who promoted the bible all over the antique world ;) )
I hope you know you are just exchanging one book of revelation with an other. In this respect I don't really follow Crisp's opinion that you are more open minded then Tony.

Tony,


true faith and understanding of what was and is achieved at the cross does not allow for religious tolerance, I'm sorry if you think that's harsh. But when you know the truth and when you have stood face to face with deception then you can see very, very clearly.


This stand is the main reason why there is such a thing as hate and war. The strange thing is that everybody is horrified by violence and every religion preaches peace and understanding at one point or an other but at the same time is blind for its own intolerance against other views. It is a terrible conclusion to come to because faith touches the very basics of our own thinking but we should get rid of it or at the very least question it !
This is not a plead for atheism (although I do sympathise that view) but for a critical evaluation of intolerance.

------------------
"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

Hi Plato,


I hope you know you are just exchanging one book of revelation with an other. In this respect I don't really follow Crisp's opinion that you are more open minded then Tony.

I couldn't have put it any better. However Plato, both you and I (and many others) are also following our own book(s) of revelation (called "Physics"), that do no hold the complete truth alltogether. I am glad Paul acknowledged that even the book of Urantia he praises so much, doesn't hold the truth.

As far as I see it, there's no right or wrong in this discussion. The point we are debating about is how acurately our books of revelation describe the truth/reality. (Hrm, this last phrase starts to worry me since my own words are starting to sound Urantian.... Think I'll panic ;)). Personally I'll ofcourse say that all the books on my (and your) bookshelf do that to a very good accuracy, but I am pretty sure that both Paul and Tony will disagree. Why will they disagree ? Probably because their belief in their versions of the truth is as large (or larger) than our belief in the mathematics that underly all physics. Does this mean the maths are right ? I dunno, but I think they're doing a d*mn good job at it (forgive me my swearing Tony).

Tony,


Getting to know the God of the Bible takes some effort, He doesn't want spoilt rotten children who demand to be spoon fed.

I hope you are aware of the irony of this statement. On one side you try to convince us all to see the light and become god's children (as he surely wants), but on the otherside you tell us that he rejects all people that are too lazy to read between the lines. Doesn't this somewhat contradict the "you are all welcome in heaven" statement ? Or is this a new form of the "you have to work to get in heaven" ? If I remember history correctly, about 400 to 500 years ago people were forced to work hard to survive, giving as much as they could as donations to the church just to get in heaven. Is it because this no longer applies nowadays that we now actually have to read the bible ? (I'm afraid you'll also have to read between these lines to get what I mean ;)).

Without going too philosophic here, I would furthermore like to add that we should praise the lord for our laziness! (sarcasm intended). Isn't it because of laziness that the great inventions of our time have been created ? Why did we invent the wheel ? Probably not because it's so much fun to see it turning, but to take four of those, hammer a board to it and put stuff on it to push it around (chariot). Why did we invent the bicycle ? Because we love walking all the way to the grocery store ?

I hope you'll see that I can go on forever with this. Laziness is, next to the more dominant scientific curiosity, one of the main reasons we have science; so please don't ask us to work, that would be against the very nature of science itself ;).

Bye!

Crisp

Dear,Crispy
You know we aren't as far apart as you think .The fingerprints of God are everywhere.Mathematics and physics are just one of the many tools to show us where He left them and explain how He left them.Have you ever read fingerprints of God?In one chapter the explain that if you take the cracks that form in ice naturally.How ever random the seem,when there location and frequency is entered in to a computer digitaly.The give the blue print for a tree or many other living things.I am not sure if I explained this quite accuratly,what I am trying to say is that there is nothing random in the universe at all.Any book,be it physics or the bible,or even the urantia book has some good to be gleaned from it.God put nothing here at our disposal to be wasted,He gave us the ability to see the many clues to his existance.We all must come to him in our own way,be it science(which I love)or phylosophy,or religion,He just wants you to use what works for you and does no harm to any one or thing.Thinking ill of someone or something is just as bad as doing ill to them.So always keep and open mind and one day you will see we where on the same road after all.As for h2o,we both know that water has many sates of being,sometimes it is high humidity and sometimes it just rains no matter what.

Paul/Machiaventa Speaks :D :D :D :D h2o :) :p

[This message has been edited by paul defourneaux (edited April 15, 2000).]

Hi Paul,


You know we aren't as far apart as you think.

Indeed, but this is also the point where our roads split! ;)


The fingerprints of God are everywhere. Mathematics and physics are just one of the many tools to show us where He left them and explain how He left them. God put nothing here at our disposal to be wasted, He gave us the ability to see the many clues to his existance.

Aha, but now you're assuming that I am actually looking for (a) god through science. I am looking for the truth (what makes things happen, how does nature work?), but you might very well argue that I am denying that this truth is god (then he surely hides in a very good way). On the other hand, science seems to more and more disprove the existance of a higher being, by being more and more able to explain the fine mechanism nature works in.

I am aware that this is a very dangerious opinion I am presenting here (since this will likely reopen the debate of science vs. religion one more time), but I think this is one of the major points we have different opinions about. When you show me god, you will say "this is the big guy, accept his existance" and my first reaction will be "prove that its him". Even when you've done so I will still try to explain how he works as yet another part of nature we're exploring.

Don't get me wrong, I am not attacking your belief in god; I am very happy it works out for you. But I am afraid you're dealing with a rebel here who simply cannot stop at the point where you say "go no further" ;).

Bye!

Crisp

Dear Crisp,
At one time not to long ago I thought as you did.No ones explaination could supercede what science had taught me.Having a M.S. in chemistry made it very hard to except any explaination other than scientific ones.Yet when I read this book(urantia)and found that it integrated science,phylosophy,and spirituality in one,all things came toghether.I have found that science is more of a plausible explaination of how God made this universe and all things in it.For many years I was an agnostic,believing that all religions used there knowledge to control people.For Knowledge is power,and the control of knowledge is absolute power.When science began to explain Gods working nature to the masses religion lost much of it's control.It created a group of people who knew more than the religionists who had been in control.Where would we be now if the catholics and there buddies had not kept us in the dark ages for half a millenia?Please do not ever stop searching for your personal truth,for in the end it will bring to the right conclusion,for all of us must come to God in our own way.Remember there are no atheist on the battlefield.I enjoy reading your responses and hearing different points of view.The Urantia book was published 100 yrs. ahead of it time in order to promogulate teachers and other people to dissemminate it's teachings.By the year 2055,if we are still alive in this dimension we will see a great movement spawned by this book and the foundation.I sincerly hope that you are around to see it,for it will be the beginning of this world's entry into the world of light and life.Ghandi said"if we are luky enough to live so long most of our sins will fade into non-existence.

Paul/Machiaventa Speaks :D :D :D

Paul -

Do you realize that you sound exactly like those who believe the bible to be the answer to everything? Giving up christianity (or any other religion) for this book is simply replacing one subjective dream with another.

Also, your athiest/battlefield comment demonstrates that you don't really know what an athiest is. True athiests do not believe in gods, so no matter what situation they are in, they can't simply jump tracks and start believing. The weak-willed people you are describing are imposters, who say they don't believe but secretly, 'deep down', actually believe in some sort of deity. The belief needs to exist for one to be able to embrace it.

FyreStar

fyrestar, what do you mean "jump tracks and start believeing"? Do you mean believeing in something based on faith? Of course you do! Whatever your stance on anything is, you need to take a whole hell of a lot on faith! If a leading expert of astronomy tells you that the universe is expanding, you have faith that his of her measurements are coorect, and that he or she is not outright lying to you. It all boils down to that anyway. Now faith is not in any way a bad thing, it is extremely necessary in life. However, many people take things solely on blind faith, apart from any evidence or body of substantiated knowledge. This is where I part ways with Paul and his Urantia philosophies. They are not only unsubstantiated, but also very unrealistic. How can anyone make a claim like "our current estimations at the size (which is a determiner of the age) of the universe are off by 17,000,000%"? This is astounding! You must agree that without proper evidence on which to base such a claim, no one in their right mind can take you seriously without defying the principles of reason. That's no good. I have started reading the Urania book, and I find the thing to be very dull and filled with sci-fi mumbo-jumbo that can in no way be proven. So I must wonder, where is it that the authpr received his information regarding the wild claims he makes regarding the universe? Certainly not from any existing body of evidence. This faith is blind. Blind faith is unnacceptable to me. I veiw faith as having two sub-catagories. The first is blind faith, which is based off of no evidence, or is contrary to existing evidence. Urantia is this, both lacking in any proof and contrary to existing evidence. The second kind of faith is a mere extension of what is known to be true. We as people can never know everything, so we will always have to make faith-based assumptoins about certain things. As long as we know something about what we are placing our faith in, and our faith meshes with known truth, it is not blind, but very reasonable. Urantia is not this. Its claims do not go hand in hand with any body of truth. Oops! I must reject it therefore on principles of mere reason, something which is in reach of anyone so long as they are mature enough to be objective.

micah

Dear D.C.K.

I totally respect your scepticism!I do not ask you to take this book on blind faith alone.At www.urantia.org (http://www.urantia.org) you will find a link on the history of the book and where it actually came from.And you are right there are some things that are hard to swallow.The book was not written by people as we know it,it was dictated to people here,yet the authors are what you would call extraterrestrials.I first doubted this book and it's writings yet as time passed the truth manifested itself to me in ways I can't readily explain.The fact that I have gotten you to read it at all is a success to me.Days ,months,or even years from now you will say"damn I'm glad i found that book"because in time it will all be as clear to you as it is to me.Do me a favor keep reading it if only to find reasons for disproving or disallowing it.And keep telling that idiot Loone what he needs to hear.

Paul?machiaventa Speaks :D :D :D

[This message has been edited by paul defourneaux (edited April 16, 2000).]

thanks for not putting up a huge fight. And yes, I will keep telling Loone to behave! I wish he didn't give faith such a bad rapport with people who think that faith has no place among itellectualism.

micah