I am curious: what does your flag mean to you? Is it something to be proud of? Is it merely a collection of colours to show your UN ambassador where he's suppoesed to sit? Tell me.

This pledge thing... what about that? What exactly is it? How often if ever do you have to do it? When is there no escape in doing it?

I saw a Bill Hicks routine on burning the flag. Some guy says hey, my father died for that flag. Flagburner: really? I just bought it at K-Mart. Angry guy: No man, he fought in Korea for it. Flagburner: hey, mine is made in Korea too.

Bill: your father fought in Korea so we can have the right to burn the fucking flag.

OK, your views please, and plenty of them!

my flag means quite a bit to me as well as to my family. its not just something we put up in september. those people really bother me. we've flown a flag as far back as i can remember, i alo have a little one of my own in my room in my window.

I think America's flag is the prettiest flag of any nation. Australia would be first place, but they have the British flag in the corner, and that screws up the colour sceme. :(

Nightfall, why is the flag so important to you?

Xev, besides that it is pretty, what does your flag or a flag mean to you?

A4Ever:

Oh, it's a symbol of my country. Other than that, it's a scrap of cloth. It was what finally made me cry on 9/11, seeing the flags at half mast....simple symbolism.

I can understand how that flag could make you cry.

Maybe by now I should start another thread, but what does your country mean to you? Is it a source of pride? Many will oppose Bush, but there is more to a country than it's politicians.

Here in Belgium very few people are proud of their country. They try to divide us into Flemish and Walloons. You can read all about it in the CIA facts book :)

But the fact that we are only the size of Maryland and are already divided in three parts (German speaking people also have their piece of our Maryland) and the fact that these three groups are all represented politicaly (we have about eight governments) makes many people indifferent. Belgium? So what. Flanders? Who cares.

So I am curious what a country, represented by a flag, can mean, that was the underlying question of the thread. I should be more clear.

Originally posted by A4Ever
Maybe by now I should start another thread, but what does your country mean to you? Is it a source of pride?
Have you heard of Patriotism?



Many will oppose Bush, but there is more to a country than it's politicians.

Why does US flag has anything to do with Bush? Why do you bring it up?

My opinion regarding to flag is I don't care what people do to it. They can decide to burn it. That sort of express is freedom of speech. I don't really care. As long as those people are tracked down by FBI, arrested, and then shot, killed, gased, electrocuted, skinned, flogged, hanged, beheaded............... don't matter to me.

I live in the area of land known as Kansas. When i look at the American flag, i see 1) America's idealistic side; 2) America's shadow side; 3) all of the good that America has done; 4) all of the bad that America has done.

I don't get weepy when i see the American flag, because the positive is balanced by the negative. I'm not nationalistic. I see all humans as belonging to the same country -- Earth. When i see a picture of our planet from outer space i get weepy. That to me is our flag.

Have you heard of Patriotism?

Yes, but like I said, we don't have that here. Are you a patriot?


Why does US flag has anything to do with Bush? Why do you bring it up?

Because many people don't like Bush, and he represents the US to some degree just like the flag, it is easy to feel negative towards euh... the flag.

But I wanted a more general sentiment or view, not restricted by current politics.


I don't really care. As long as those people are tracked down by FBI

That was a joke, right? Or are you really uncomfortable with someone damaging a flag representing your country?


I see all humans as belonging to the same country -- Earth. When i see a picture of our planet from outer space i get weepy. That to me is our flag.

Nicely put. I agree with you.

So how about some pledge posts?

The flag doesn't stand for anything. It's just a piece of cloth that we wave to represent our country in a small package. It's just a way to identify us. A way to classify us. The only touchy feeling my flag ever made me feel was Rememberance day. For a moment I felt thankful that so many men were willing to die for my cause. Then I'm reminded that every country in history has had these men, and the flag stops being a representation of that.

Many nationalists (and the majority I've spoken to have been American) say they look at their flag and feel pride because of the men and women who gave their life to protect them. I find that almost laughable. I don't believe in taking pride in an act which every single nation on Earth can rightfully claim.


As for which flag is best looking Xev;
I don't know, but I personally don't think the Yankee flag is it. The American flag to me just looks, American. When I look at a flag like Brazil's or Ukraine's or Jamaica's the feeling I get is a nation saying we're going to do the best we can. When I look at a flag like Britain's or America's or the old Soviet flag the nation seems to just say we're the best there is.

I'm in the UK and the flag means nothing to me. Its a symbol. So what. So's my middle finger salute. It sux. As does the overly hypocritical United States who don't appreciate my country and use it as a pawn.
The United States think they're so great just because they stole a country from their natives and won a few wars. So feckin what.
The United States may have a big army. That doesn't mean they have the best. The British army is better. It is more skilled and more modest. The Aussie army is better too.

Here's a question. You know people say that people fought for the flag and died for their country. How come you yanks virtually spit on Vietnam Veterans. They were A - Fighting for what they believed in (no communism) B - Following orders from their country

It makes me sick. I'm sorry, it does. Thats is my truth.

well in the olden time in the battle field they use the flag to boost the morale (which is stupid if you want to run away), but now the moderm army they don't need it because they just do their job and BANG they become successful i think the motto is better for example the S.A.S they have a logo with a motto "He who dares wins" that the perfect way to show that you will be known of what they did. hmm

Err, Brolly. Its 'Who Dares Wins'.

oh

Tyler:
Yes, this is true, but I love the colour scheme. I mean, two of my favorite colours (red and blue) as well as stars. Groovy.

Australia's flag is great because it looks basically like the night sky. What a wonderful thing to choose to represent your country!

This is part of what makes Aussies cool.

I don't much like the design of your flag, but the maple leaf is interesting. I think of a cannibis leaf, which seems a good way to represent your country.

Especially when it is as laid back and has as many donut shops as yours.

A4Ever:
I should clarify. It wasn't the flag per se, but seeing it at half mast. Somehow this clarified things for me. "Thousands (at the time, we were thinking tens of thousands, perhaps) have already died, and now there will be war, and at least hundreds more will die."

I did not cry for my country. I don't see 9/11 as quite an attack on America (as CNN puts it) but as something that killed thousands of innocent people.

Thor:

The United States think they're so great just because they stole a country from their natives and won a few wars. So feckin what.

And how many countries did you steal from their natives, sweetie pie? Come to think of it, the Saxons did more or less the same thing.

got you there thor

after the 9/11 the whole world just studdenly changed, the people just now afraid of terriorism but now it nearly finished with part of success/fail but bush just pushing his luck with Iraq

At least we gave them back. Got ya there.

People have always been afraid of terrorism. Its just when the States gets attacked, they go on a power trip

(sigh)

doesn't this just beat all

a Huge Rivialary between england and america

The US is just arrogant

we all are

What I mean is The US is too arragant.
Its got to get of its high horse before the horse gets fed up of the assholes controlling it (Presidents/Congrees)

Originally posted by A4Ever

Yes, but like I said, we don't have that here. Are you a patriot?

Yes I am a patriot. If you are not a patriot, you don't care enough. You take things for granted. If there isn't any nationalistic people in your counry, they wouldn't try to divide the country into 3 parts. They just wouldn't care.



Because many people don't like Bush, and he represents the US to some degree just like the flag, it is easy to feel negative towards euh... the flag.

But I wanted a more general sentiment or view, not restricted by current politics.

if you don't want this topic to be affected by current politics, mentioning Bush is counter productive.



That was a joke, right? Or are you really uncomfortable with someone damaging a flag representing your country?

Of course it is a joke, but it does have some truth to it.

The fact of the matter is every flag burners have their own reasons for burning the flag. As I said before it is protected by freedom of speech. Some are unpatriotic, some do it because they care too much. Without knowing the intent, it is impossible to make generalized judgement.

Originally posted by Thor
What I mean is The US is too arragant.
Its got to get of its high horse before the horse gets fed up of the assholes controlling it (Presidents/Congrees)

Only ignorant idiots would believe US is more arrogant than any other country in the world.

If I saw someone burning my country's flag, I'd beat the hell out of him...

of course if he doesn't weight 110kg;) :D


as for the US-> I'm not its fan or patriot and someone burning its flag wouldn't upset me much.
Of course it is still unethical.

yeah but why buring country flag yeah it can hurt people feeling

but it just a form of threat which they not going to do and plus it not the only one flag!
there are loads of same flag
mmmmmmmm...

If you are not a patriot, you don't care enough.

I don't know. I care for people. You think it is necessary to add patriotism? Where's the line between patriotism and nationalism?


If there isn't any nationalistic people in your counry, they wouldn't try to divide the country into 3 parts.

Yes, we have people like that, but their politic parties do not get many votes, so it is safe to say that most people don't care too much about the matter. Americans have a much deeper feeling about their country. Also, our biggest nationalist party has racist views as well.

So I try to find out what a country can mean.


if you don't want this topic to be affected by current politics, mentioning Bush is counter productive.

You're probably right. I just didn't want anyone to think that I was going to make this another America bashing thread. I wanted to give people the opportunity to talk about other things, like for example all those beautiful national parks, culture,... whatever makes them proud, starting with the flag.

That's why I said that a country is more than their politicians.


Without knowing the intent, it is impossible to make generalized judgement.

It should be under freedom of speech/expression no matter what. That's how I feel. Of course national security must be considered at all time, but the act itself is just burning cloth.


What I mean is The US is too arragant.

Correction: maybe the Bush administration is too arrogant.

Two: this is just a catch phrase, it has no meaning, there are millions of Americans, this is not a good generalisation.

Three: me, here in Belgium, how would I react if someone flew a plane into the center of Brussels? Maybe I would need all my self control to not cheer for our army (those five fighter pilots) going after the terrorists.

Of course it is still unethical.

I don't understand. It's just an expression. Is swearing unethical? Is all that attacking America in the threads unethical?

for me, my country's flag represents my nationality, my heritage, my history, my culture. Attacking it is insulting to me.

don't know about the states. I'm not a great US lover- but who is...*

and discussion is different than flag burning

*(outside of the us)

"Australia's flag is great because it looks basically like the night sky. What a wonderful thing to choose to represent your country!"

That is indeed cool.


"I don't much like the design of your flag, but the maple leaf is interesting. I think of a cannibis leaf, which seems a good way to represent your country.

Especially when it is as laid back and has as many donut shops as yours."

I like the Canadian flag but I don't think it's one of the top 3 or so. The colour scheme represents our nation very well, very laid back. I think we're one of the few nations to use red as a colour of respect and oneness rather than power and fighting.

Yeah, they have t-shirts here with a cannabis leaf instead of the maple leaf.


Joeman;

"Yes I am a patriot. If you are not a patriot, you don't care enough. You take things for granted. If there isn't any nationalistic people in your counry, they wouldn't try to divide the country into 3 parts. They just wouldn't care."

This is beyond sad. There is a distinct difference between meanings of the word patriot. On the one hand you have a person who stands by their country whenever, despite whether they do horrible things or good. On the other you have a person who says that their country has done some great things in the past and present and they are wanting to help for the future. The majority of American patriots are the former.


"Only ignorant idiots would believe US is more arrogant than any other country in the world."

That's possibly the most retarted comment I've heard in a political discussion not made by someone who believes racism doesn't exist. American arrogance is matched by some other nations - but sure as fuck not by many. The fact that Americans were so shocked at being attacked in September is one shining example. I spent the entirety of grade 9 debating with my history teacher when America would be attacked. The June before the attacks we finally stopped and concluded it would come within 3-5 years. We were wrong, but weren't surprised. You want to see American arrogance? Phone CBC in Canada and ask for a copy of Talking to American's by Rick Mercer.

Tyler:

That's possibly the most retarted comment I've heard in a political discussion not made by someone who believes racism doesn't exist. American arrogance is matched by some other nations - but sure as fuck not by many. The fact that Americans were so shocked at being attacked in September is one shining example. I spent the entirety of grade 9 debating with my history teacher when America would be attacked. The June before the attacks we finally stopped and concluded it would come within 3-5 years. We were wrong, but weren't surprised. You want to see American arrogance? Phone CBC in Canada and ask for a copy of Talking to American's by Rick Mercer.

Well, we have a lot to be arrogant about. We saved your ass in world war two, and we saved your ass from the godless commies, and we made the world safe for democracy numerous times. USA USA WHOOO WHOOO WHOOOO! WE'RE NUMBER ONE!

Anyways, we may be arrogant, but at least we don't eat snails! And our women shave! U - S - A! U - S - A!

You're just jealous 'cuz my country beat your country (http://www.grudge-match.com/History/usa-canada.shtml)

The Swedish flag means nothing to me, but I like the colours.

Originally posted by Tyler
"Joeman;

"Yes I am a patriot. If you are not a patriot, you don't care enough. You take things for granted. If there isn't any nationalistic people in your counry, they wouldn't try to divide the country into 3 parts. They just wouldn't care."

This is beyond sad. There is a distinct difference between meanings of the word patriot. On the one hand you have a person who stands by their country whenever, despite whether they do horrible things or good. On the other you have a person who says that their country has done some great things in the past and present and they are wanting to help for the future. The majority of American patriots are the former.

A4Ever, this thread is turning into an American bashing thread. What??? US has done something bad? WTF are you talking about ;) If you believe Americans are the most blindly patriotic people in the world you are mistaken. I have lived in many countries in my life. Most of you don't besides just your own. Yes. I stand by my country no matter they do good things or bad. It is not because I am ignorant, but because it is consistent with my belief how world politics should work. Without making the thread going into a different direction that is all I am going to say. I am not in a mood to type something long. In democratic country all our important government officials are elected. If they do something terrible we are all responsible. If we elected horrible government officials, that is because either people are horrible or people don't pay enough attention. Once they are elected we should stand behind them instead of bashing them. (like Bush)



"Only ignorant idiots would believe US is more arrogant than any other country in the world."

That's possibly the most retarted comment I've heard in a political discussion not made by someone who believes racism doesn't exist. American arrogance is matched by some other nations - but sure as fuck not by many. The fact that Americans were so shocked at being attacked in September is one shining example. I spent the entirety of grade 9 debating with my history teacher when America would be attacked. The June before the attacks we finally stopped and concluded it would come within 3-5 years. We were wrong, but weren't surprised. You want to see American arrogance? Phone CBC in Canada and ask for a copy of Talking to American's by Rick Mercer.

So you are claiming US is the most arrogant country in the world? First of all how can you possible know that if you haven't lived in any other countries? How exactly do you measure arrogance? Are you making your claim based on a few anecdotal examples? Based on what you said above, you are confused bewteen ignorance and arrogance. There are ignorant people in every country.

Let me give you couple examples. In class room in US saying "US is the greatest country in the world" is considered politically incorrect. In Japan, kids in class room are not only taught Japan is the greatest country in the world, but they are taught Japanese are the "most intelligent" people in the world. What about Japanese flag? Land of the rising sun.

In China, they don't call their country "China". That is what the West call them. They called their country the "center country". They are the center of the earth. China is not the most powerful country in the world right now, but they have accumulated enough arrogance from being a super power since 5000 B.C.

BTW, I never said racism doesn't exist. I have said not only racism exist, but it goes both ways. Caucasians are not anymore racist than any other races out there. A little bit of racism can be a good thing. I am not bothered by racism personally. Only wussies are.

"A4Ever, this thread is turning into an American bashing thread. What??? US has done something bad? WTF are you talking about If you believe Americans are the most blindly patriotic people in the world you are mistaken. I have lived in many countries in my life. Most of you don't besides just your own. Yes. I stand by my country no matter they do good things or bad. It is not because I am ignorant, but because it is consistent with my belief how world politics should work. Without making the thread going into a different direction that is all I am going to say. I am not in a mood to type something long. In democratic country all our important government officials are elected. If they do something terrible we are all responsible. If we elected horrible government officials, that is because either people are horrible or people don't pay enough attention. Once they are elected we should stand behind them instead of bashing them. (like Bush)"

First off, I'm not big on US bashing. Generally people who do that are those who just like to knock the big dog no matter what.

Second, I did not say Americans are the most blindly patriotic. However, I do disagree with you. Patriotism when it consists of standing by whatever your elected officials do is detrimental. He fucked over another country to get oil? Shit, we voted him in, God Bless America! He killed thousands when it wasn't necessary (note: this is hypothetical)? Fucking A - he did what we voted him into do; God Bless America! Not a good idea.


"So you are claiming US is the most arrogant country in the world? First of all how can you possible know that if you haven't lived in any other countries? How exactly do you measure arrogance? Are you making your claim based on a few anecdotal examples? Based on what you said above, you are confused bewteen ignorance and arrogance. There are ignorant people in every country."

I have spent about 2/3 of my life in Canada. The rest was spent in the States (mainly), France, Switzerland, England (briefly), Germany, Belgium, Russia (briefly), Mexico, Jamaica, Antigua, Barbados, Israel, Japan (briefly) and a couple other places. A few anecdotes is not what I consider my experiences. I spent 2 months in Detroit when I was 13 playing hockey, 3 1/2 months in Portugal when I was 12 and 3 months in France between two visits. Those are hte only three countries I would consider myself understanding of besides my own.


"Let me give you couple examples. In class room in US saying "US is the greatest country in the world" is considered politically incorrect. In Japan, kids in class room are not only taught Japan is the greatest country in the world, but they are taught Japanese are the "most intelligent" people in the world. What about Japanese flag? Land of the rising sun."

The people I met in Detroit looked at me as if I was an alien when I mentioned the camps America had once set up for Natives. Ditto the interment camps in WWII. Of course, I (and they) was only 13. American education system is sad, and Canada's appears to be getting even sadder, though in a different way. Anyway, I'm curious to hear about this Japanese thing. Did you learn or teach there?


"In China, they don't call their country "China". That is what the West call them. They called their country the "center country". They are the center of the earth. China is not the most powerful country in the world right now, but they have accumulated enough arrogance from being a super power since 5000 B.C."

Communism doesn't hurt to make that a fact either.


"BTW, I never said racism doesn't exist. I have said not only racism exist, but it goes both ways. Caucasians are not anymore racist than any other races out there. A little bit of racism can be a good thing. I am not bothered by racism personally. Only wussies are."

No, it was Banshee who said that. Something about how she doesn't believe different races exist therefore racism is not a real thing.

Xev:

"Well, we have a lot to be arrogant about. We saved your ass in world war two,"

We were heroes of WWI. And made one of the greatest sacrifices of WWII.

"and we saved your ass from the godless commies,"

I'm not too sure we ever really feared the commies. They only sent spies to Canada to try and get into America or look at our sciences.

"and we made the world safe for democracy numerous times. USA USA WHOOO WHOOO WHOOOO! WE'RE NUMBER ONE!"

Like when? I'd say your wars fought to save democracy are outnumbered by your facist leaders put in power.

"Anyways, we may be arrogant, but at least we don't eat snails!"

American food is some of the shitiest I've ever tasted. So is Toronto food. It's about as sad as it comes. Give me French sauces, German meat and mid-eastern stir foods and I'll be happy!


"And our women shave! U - S - A! U - S - A!"

Ug. I don't know why people talk about the French when dealing with this. To be honest, I only ever experienced the non-shaving women in southern States, Germany and Greece.


"You're just jealous 'cuz my country beat your country"

That site was kind of funny. A lot of you guys seem to think you won in 1812 eh? I mean, it's not like we burned down your capital city? And in the debate the Yankee seems to be putting Canada down because we have a French leader. Um, okey-dokey then. Your leader almost died from a pretzal, doesn't speak English, waves to a blind guy...
Anywho, all in good fun.

Here's an interesting consideration: What is it that makes a flag? My traditionalist grandparents for example would never burn a cloth flag that you would buy at a store, but it's nothing to them to burn the little ink-on-paper American flag that's on the front of their daily newspaper in the fireplace. If the design of a flag is on cloth, it is immaculate and holy. If it is on paper, it's burning material / waste material. Seems kinda odd to me, now that i think about it -- that it isn't the art-design of a flag that's being revered and considered unburnable per se, but the art-design specifically being on a certain type of material, as if in being on it the design is suddenly transmuted into something else entirely.

That's possibly the most retarted comment I've heard in a political discussion not made by someone who believes racism doesn't exist. American arrogance is matched by some other nations - but sure as fuck not by many. The fact that Americans were so shocked at being attacked in September is one shining example. I spent the entirety of grade 9 debating with my history teacher when America would be attacked. The June before the attacks we finally stopped and concluded it would come within 3-5 years. We were wrong, but weren't surprised. You want to see American arrogance? Phone CBC in Canada and ask for a copy of Talking to American's by Rick Mercer.

Tyler, if you think the American people didn't know or expect that a terrorist attack could happen, then you are clueless.

We already had a WTC attack in 93, and the Oklahoma City bombing. In 1996 Clinton passed anti-terrorism laws, and the Media has been warning of terriosits attacks since the early 90's. Even now, most Americans polled expect a nuclear attack this decade and realize that a free society is always an easy target.

Your knowledge of Americans is obviously very small.


Originally posted by Joeman

A little bit of racism can be a good thing. I am not bothered by racism personally. Only wussies are. [/B]

No offence Joeman, but this is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard.

"Tyler, if you think the American people didn't know or expect that a terrorist attack could happen, then you are clueless"

To quote People Magazine - "It shocked us all."

Debate forums (I wasn't here yet) were filled with the shock of American public. No one expected this huge an attack. Or, rather, very few.

To quote People Magazine - "It shocked us all."

Debate forums (I wasn't here yet) were filled with the shock of American public. No one expected this huge an attack. Or, rather, very few.

The gravity of the attack and how many people died, was surprising. But the fact that a terriost attack happened, wasn't.

Also, People magazine(like most of our pathetic Media here in America) is all about drama to reel in buyers.

Tyler, it's called "parody" or "burlesque", also "joking".

Sorry, thought you'd recognize what with "godless commies" and all.


The people I met in Detroit looked at me as if I was an alien when I mentioned the camps America had once set up for Natives. Ditto the interment camps in WWII. Of course, I (and they) was only 13.

Your knowledge of Americans is obviously very small.

This second comment is true. Not only were we not shocked at the attacks per se (more upset that thousands of humans had been killed, I guess that sort of thing tends to upset people - can't imagine why :rolleyes: ), most semi-educated people know about the internment camps.

I mean, what the fuck? You go into one of the poorest parts of Michigan in a state with one of the worst educational systems, and you expect pre-highschoolers to know these things?

Come on.

Oh, and soulthern women shave, unless they are ridiculously overweight. Soulthern women are cute. Especially when they come up north to college and run wild.

BTW, does anyone ever see Jay Leno when he asks people on the street about history? That is funny!

Originally posted by Tyler
Second, I did not say Americans are the most blindly patriotic. However, I do disagree with you. Patriotism when it consists of standing by whatever your elected officials do is detrimental. He fucked over another country to get oil? Shit, we voted him in, God Bless America! He killed thousands when it wasn't necessary (note: this is hypothetical)? Fucking A - he did what we voted him into do; God Bless America! Not a good idea.

Couple things.

Whether someone do something that is good or terrible is always subjective. I have been in this kind of debate too much. I have learn if a person is from your country then what he did is good if he is not from your country then he is terrible. It is all matter of perspective. That is a big part of what patriotism is about - only make judgement from your own country's perspective. Most people have partriotism in them. It is hypocricy if they say they don't. For those who say patriotism is a bad thing, I can usually find circumstances when they are being hypocritical.

Correction: I actually never meant standing by a politician no matter what is a good idea. What I was trying to say is I always stand by a politician no matter what he does is good or bad, as long as what he does is good for America. ;) That is sad for some people I guess.



I have spent about 2/3 of my life in Canada. The rest was spent in the States (mainly), France, Switzerland, England (briefly), Germany, Belgium, Russia (briefly), Mexico, Jamaica, Antigua, Barbados, Israel, Japan (briefly) and a couple other places. A few anecdotes is not what I consider my experiences. I spent 2 months in Detroit when I was 13 playing hockey, 3 1/2 months in Portugal when I was 12 and 3 months in France between two visits. Those are hte only three countries I would consider myself understanding of besides my own.

So you speak English, French, German, Belgian, Russian, Spanish, Hebrew, and Japanese? I don't consider travelling "living there". You don't learn their culture without speaking their language.



Anyway, I'm curious to hear about this Japanese thing. Did you learn or teach there?

I have a lot of relatives married to Japanese. My grand parents were educated in Japan. (They are not Japanese) That is where they met. They don't speak each other's language, but they communicated in Japanese when they were dating. The Japanese are totally brainwashed in the class room. In fact most kids don't know anything about WWII. They don't even know they invaded other countries until grow up and find out on their own. Yes they are arrogant especially when their economy were red hot in early 90's and their products were kicking everyone's butt.

Tyler, I'm backing you up 100%.

Joeman, Xev. You have just proven my point. Americans are arrogant. Read what you wrote here then tell me you're not. You can't, cos you'd be lying.

The US did not save us in WW2. Don't know were you got that. You saved France, big deal. The Brits were only concerntrating on Poland. Lot of good that did after the war.

Great Britain would have held off the Third Reich. They withdrew their invasion plans after they lost the Battle of Britain which was BEFORE the US finally got of their asses and did something for the free-world.

Originally posted by static76
No offence Joeman, but this is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard.

In what way?

Read what I said

Originally posted by Thor
Joeman, Xev. You have just proven my point. Americans are arrogant. Read what you wrote here then tell me you're not. You can't, cos you'd be lying.

Two data points are not enough evidence to prove your point.

There are 274 million people in US. To prove your point, first you need to calculate how many samples are required to represent 274 million people with 5% error or less. You can come up with different numbers depends on what kind of tests you do. Chi-Square test is very common. No matter what test you do, that number is going to be more than two.

"Whether someone do something that is good or terrible is always subjective. I have been in this kind of debate too much. I have learn if a person is from your country then what he did is good if he is not from your country then he is terrible. It is all matter of perspective. That is a big part of what patriotism is about - only make judgement from your own country's perspective. Most people have partriotism in them. It is hypocricy if they say they don't. For those who say patriotism is a bad thing, I can usually find circumstances when they are being hypocritical."

Patriotism is a necessity to a successful country. However, when it his a limit it becomes both detrimental and annoying.


"Correction: I actually never meant standing by a politician no matter what is a good idea. What I was trying to say is I always stand by a politician no matter what he does is good or bad, as long as what he does is good for America. That is sad for some people I guess"

That is sad to me. My view is more case-by-base.


"So you speak English, French, German, Belgian, Russian, Spanish, Hebrew, and Japanese? I don't consider travelling "living there". You don't learn their culture without speaking their language."

English - obviously
French - Yup
German - Yup
Belgian - German can be spoken
Russian - not enough to understand the culture, enough to get anywhere and anything
Spanish - Hells no. But when I was there I learnt a fair amount. It was 4 years ago remember, I spent over three months there and I had enough to get by on by the end (I started learning before we left). I've just not used it since then so I've forgotten it for the most part.
Hebrew - I did. You need to for a bar mitzvah unless you're just the kind of person who phonetically remembers what they have to say. Minute after my bar mitzvah I consciencly forgot everything. Didn't want it.
Japanese - nope. We had a hard time in Japan. I would like to learn though.


"I have a lot of relatives married to Japanese. My grand parents were educated in Japan. (They are not Japanese) That is where they met. They don't speak each other's language, but they communicated in Japanese when they were dating. The Japanese are totally brainwashed in the class room. In fact most kids don't know anything about WWII. They don't even know they invaded other countries until grow up and find out on their own. Yes they are arrogant especially when their economy were red hot in early 90's and their products were kicking everyone's butt."

That's very interesting, thank you.

Originally posted by Joeman


In what way?

Your statement was, "A little bit of racism can be a good thing. I am not bothered by racism personally. Only wussies are."

How is ANY racism a good thing? And then you say only "wussies" are bothered by racism?

Were the Jews killed in the Holocaust, "wussies"? Were the Blacks who were enslaved and segregated, "wussies"? Were the American Natives who were massacred, "wussies"? Were the Asians who got put into internment camps, "wussies"?

You seem to lack an understanding of how racism can affect people. On most things Joeman you think things out very well, but on this issue your way off.

Rascism is a primative concept which should be outlawed.

I look down on rascists.

But then again, I look down on most people. I'm quite tall

Thor:
I'm glad to see you're not letting my explanation of my post get in the way of your ignorance.


Joeman, Xev. You have just proven my point. Americans are arrogant. Read what you wrote here then tell me you're not. You can't, cos you'd be lying.

A: Anyone with half a brain could tell I was joking. Even if you did not know I was an athiest, my title proclaims it.

So obviously, when I say "godless commies", I am joking, being godless myself.

B: Okay, so you're not very bright. Or you have not had your morning coffee yet. But you could at least read what I say:

"Tyler, it's called "parody" or "burlesque", also "joking". Sorry, thought you'd recognize what with "godless commies" and all."


The US did not save us in WW2. Don't know were you got that. You saved France, big deal. The Brits were only concerntrating on Poland. Lot of good that did after the war.

The US made major contributions, and definitly was insturmental in winning the war. But I won't argue the thing I said as parody.


Great Britain would have held off the Third Reich. They withdrew their invasion plans after they lost the Battle of Britain which was BEFORE the US finally got of their asses and did something for the free- world.

For how long? No, the US' entry saved millions of lives.


Rascism is a primative concept which should be outlawed.

I love the way people like you live under democratic or at least free governments and advocate fascism.

Tyler:

Patriotism is a necessity to a successful country. However, when it his a limit it becomes both detrimental and annoying.

Annoying to you, sure. Most of the world hates us. *Smiles* There's no way to change this, so why bother? The thing to do is to stay safe and ethical at the same time.

Basically, I'm saying that no American should give a flying fuck whether the rest of the world thinks we are annoyingly patriotic.

Originally posted by Tyler
Patriotism is a necessity to a successful country. However, when it his a limit it becomes both detrimental and annoying.

To foreigners maybe :D



That is sad to me. My view is more case-by-base.

Case by case basis is the common sense approach. My philosophy is a little too scary for some of you kids.


static76
Your statement was, "A little bit of racism can be a good thing. I am not bothered by racism personally. Only wussies are."

How is ANY racism a good thing? And then you say only "wussies" are bothered by racism?

Were the Jews killed in the Holocaust, "wussies"? Were the Blacks who were enslaved and segregated, "wussies"? Were the American Natives who were massacred, "wussies"? Were the Asians who got put into internment camps, "wussies"?

You seem to lack an understanding of how racism can affect people. On most things Joeman you think things out very well, but on this issue your way off.


Did you notice I say "A little bit"? If those examples you described fit into the profile of "a littile bit", then what is "a lot"?

I really don't think any of those you described will happen again in any civilized countries.

In the world and through out history, the only thing that make people tick is competition. Compeition is the whip that crack your back. Racism has benefited me more than it has hurt me. If someone say I can't do this because of my race, it only forces me to try harder. Since there is discrimination in work place, it forces me to have better credentials. I see it as nothing but a mechanisms that seperate the strong from the weak.

I don't practice discrimination myself. The person practices discrimination always pays a price under open competition. Under competitive environment there is no room for nonsense, like discrimination.

I'm curious -- to all of you who live in countries other than America, what other countries do you consider to be as arrogant / almost as arrogant as America?

Originally posted by Lykan
I'm curious -- to all of you who live in countries other than America, what other countries do you consider to be as arrogant / almost as arrogant as America?

Countries are consist of....umm....people. What else is capable of being arrogant in a country besides people? Not many.

There are arrogant people. There are arrogant people who run the country. There are not so arrogant people.

There are always reasons behind arrogance or arrogant politicians. It could be purely due to the way the person is brought up. It could be because the country the person runs has superior bargaining position. There are always reasons to be arrogant.

Believing a country can be more arrogant than another is ignorance. By living in another country can eliminate some of that ignorance, and therefore less likely to believe that.

I say France is pretty arrogant. To a foreigner French seem arrogant as hell especially if you visit France but don't speak French, but if you get to know them in person by person basis, they are usually nice people. It helps when two of my cousins married to French guys.

"Tyler, it's called "parody" or "burlesque", also "joking". Sorry, thought you'd recognize what with "godless commies" and all."

Like I said - "all in good fun"


"Annoying to you, sure. Most of the world hates us. *Smiles* There's no way to change this, so why bother? The thing to do is to stay safe and ethical at the same time."

Technically, it could be changed. But it would mean major changes in the education system and that just ain't gonna happen.


"Basically, I'm saying that no American should give a flying fuck whether the rest of the world thinks we are annoyingly patriotic."

Replace annoyingly patriot with...hypocrites/violaters of international law/Nazi-supporters and other such things and you get an attitude that most people in the world laugh at. What you've said is "who gives a flying fuck about other people - we do what we want". Well that's great. Who gave a fuck about the Argentinians? After all, Videla helped the American cause, right? So who gives a fuck that his idols were Mussolini and Hitler?

Great attitude.


Joeman;

"Case by case basis is the common sense approach. My philosophy is a little too scary for some of you kids."

Yup. Absolutes don't exist.


"Believing a country can be more arrogant than another is ignorance. By living in another country can eliminate some of that ignorance, and therefore less likely to believe that."

That's bullshit. Not many countries had the attitude America did in dealing with the Commies. "We'll put in a bunch of murdering Nazi's to drive out the will of the people in a nation (Communism). Not right? Fuck them, we're America and we can do whatever the fuck we want. Democracy is the best choice, we shouldn't let them choose for themselves!"

Canadians are completely not arrogant. Our standing army is a joke around here, our economy is something we know will never get huge again and people generally deal with things on a case to case basis. Our patriotism means having pride in the past and aiming to improve the future. As you said, a lot of American pride deals with pride in whatever the fuck happens.


Lykan;

"I'm curious -- to all of you who live in countries other than America, what other countries do you consider to be as arrogant / almost as arrogant as America?"

The French were pretty arrogant in relation to the Americans and British. For some reason that didn't include Canadian.
Greeks always come off as very superior to me.
The rest of the countries I never really would have said were arrogant as a majority.

Originally posted by Joeman

Did you notice I say "A little bit"? If those examples you described fit into the profile of "a littile bit", then what is "a lot"?

I really don't think any of those you described will happen again in any civilized countries.

In the world and through out history, the only thing that make people tick is competition. Compeition is the whip that crack your back. Racism has benefited me more than it has hurt me. If someone say I can't do this because of my race, it only forces me to try harder. Since there is discrimination in work place, it forces me to have better credentials. I see it as nothing but a mechanisms that seperate the strong from the weak.

I don't practice discrimination myself. The person practices discrimination always pays a price under open competition. Under competitive environment there is no room for nonsense, like discrimination. [/B]

This thread is about flags, and when I think of the American flag I think of the ideals and hope of it's people (yeh I know it sounds sappy). Racism is a cancer on our society Joeman. To act cavalier about it and say it can be a good thing, just shows how out of touch you really are.

If you think that the things I mentioned before couldn't happen again in any "civilized countries", then your very naive. Segregation in America only ended a little over 30 years ago, Stalin's and Mao Tse-Tung's massacres were only around 50 years ago. The Holocaust and Internment camps were only 60 years ago. Shall I go on...

Thinking it can never happen again, will only allow it to happen again. The whole idea of their even being different "races" is so retarded, I feel strange even discussing this.

It is interesting that I flamed Joeman once for being insufficiantly patriotic. *Laughs in glee* And I admired Tyler for being open-minded and reasonable about America.

Oh, how reality gives the lie to my assumptions!

But in all fairness, Tyler, I felt as you did when I was your age. You will grow up. :)


Technically, it could be changed. But it would mean major changes in the education system and that just ain't gonna happen.

Luv, when you are in power, everyone hates you. The educational system has nothing to do with it.


Replace annoyingly patriot with...hypocrites/violaters of international law/Nazi-supporters and other such things and you get an attitude that most people in the world laugh at.

Good heavens Ty, have you lost your grip on reason completely? I did not say that these things are okay.


What you've said is "who gives a flying fuck about other people - we do what we want". Well that's great. Who gave a fuck about the Argentinians? After all, Videla helped the American cause, right? So who gives a fuck that his idols were Mussolini and Hitler?

A little deparkote will take care of your belief that I support my country's actions in Argentina.

I said that it was no big deal that other countries found our arrogance annoying. I did not say it was okay to violate the rights of thousands of people by proxy.

Frankly, I don't see how you drew such a conclusion, especially since I have told you before that I found such actions to be despicable.


Great attitude.

Creating straw men is a great tactic.

Yeah Lykan, the French.

*Clicks fingers*

Where to start, where to start.

Ok, Tyler, excellent responce. Could do with a bit less Nazi ref's in but hey.

So, Joeman. You're For rascism are you. How I pity you.

Xev, how can I have a morning coffee at 11pm? Figure out your timezones plz.
Also, if the US had joined in the fight and not sat around like idiots for three years, millions more would have lived.

Example of US arrogance, these three simple words, 'GOD BLESS AMERICA'.
Why the feck are you so special in 'gods' eyes.
For a country all for Human Rights, you seem to include lots of Christian beliefs into the way your country is run. Its on your currency, anthem, and many other things. What ever happened to the LAND OF THE FREE. You're more or less forcing beliefs on non-christian/jewish faiths ie Muslims.

I may not be making much sense here, I'm quite tired, but I know what I'm talking about.


You Americans are ignorant to your arrogance

THE WORLD DOESN'T REVOLVE AROUND THE US
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE BACON

If I am going to look at a flag of the US, I particularly like to see the storm flag. There are several, usually put up by cities, around. These are huge flags, requiring a substantial flagpole to hold it up in the wind. To see one of these monster flags is quite inspiring. Maybe not so much for what it represents; its size is just mind numbing.

I become more dissatisfied with our president by the week. I guess that is no big deal as I do the same with all presidents as their tenure proceeds to its inevitable conclusion. Part of it I think is both parties do the continually posturing as they jockey for power and position. The news media picks up on this and amplifies it all out of proportion to its significance. Another thing the news media does is filtering the news. I guess what I am saying is it is not unbiased, straight to the core, news. It seems everyone has an agenda to push. Important info gets left out, as it is contrary to the agenda that is to be represented. Having had some dealings with being the newsworthy item for my 15 minutes, I was amazed at what was reported as opposed to what was. Some things, timely mentioned or neglected, give a whole different slant and image to the subject. While favorable, it was no less shocking in its approach.

Someone mentioned in the threads above about the attitude of the citizens spitting on Vietnam Veterans as an expression of their dislike of the Vietnam War. This was a war (police action by another name) that our politicians involved us in and would not commit to the win the thing and get it over with. So it dragged on and on. It was the first war that the country saw night after night on their TV’s as they finished their suppers or digested them. It was the first conflict brought into the homes of the majority of the populace. The government did not help their position by acts similar to the Kent State debacle.

But enough of my rambling...

"Luv, when you are in power, everyone hates you. The educational system has nothing to do with it."

Ug. You made a comment stating that American arrogance/ignorance could not be removed ("So why try?"). I then said it can be removed, but it means changes in the education system. Then you said everyone will hate us no matter what. Well that's just great but I fail to see why the hell you brought that in?


"Good heavens Ty, have you lost your grip on reason completely? I did not say that these things are okay."

And I did not say you did. What I'm saying is that the attitude is quite common.


"Frankly, I don't see how you drew such a conclusion, especially since I have told you before that I found such actions to be despicable."

Blind patriotism allows these type of actions to exist. You said Americans shouldn't give a flying fuck that they are annoyingly and blindly patriotic. I believe that if a people were not blindly patriotic they would likely not stand for actions such as Argentina and Trujillo.... I may be wrong, and I'm guessing that if I am you'll show me how.


"Creating straw men is a great tactic."

- "You will grow up."

Thor:

Xev, how can I have a morning coffee at 11pm? Figure out your timezones plz.
I don't know your location, thus I don't know your timezone.

One kind of needs to know location to know timezone, you know? ;)



Also, if the US had joined in the fight and not sat around like idiots for three years, millions more would have lived.

This is true.


Example of US arrogance, these three simple words, 'GOD BLESS AMERICA'.

I thought you were an athiest?


Why the feck are you so special in 'gods' eyes.

I dunno. I generally get offended when people say that the Invisible Pink Unicorn likes the French better than she likes Americans.


For a country all for Human Rights, you seem to include lots of Christian beliefs into the way your country is run. Its on your currency, anthem, and many other things. What ever happened to the LAND OF THE FREE. You're more or less forcing beliefs on non-christian/jewish faiths ie Muslims.

Agreed, your point being?


I may not be making much sense here,

Agreed.


You Americans are ignorant to your arrogance

Agreed as well.


THE WORLD DOESN'T REVOLVE AROUND THE US
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE BACON

You don't say? Wow. You must be a very brilliant person to have figured out this very complex fact.

Of course it does not. Who the fuck cares?

Originally posted by Tyler
"Yup. Absolutes don't exist.

Oh yeah it does. I already said I don't care if a politician does something good or bad as long as it is for the best interest of a country. I also said competition is the way that makes people tick since it serves as the whip cracking our back. I can go a step further and say inefficient and flawed government or cultures must have a way to end its existence through competition. It is good for humanity. The end justify the means. It is pretty scary.

I don't want this thread to go on a different direction especially if it is something controversial. If you don't support your country enough and your country has fucked over by the mighty USA, that is too bad. There are times you must give blind support to your country, especially if your country is Israel when some countries try to end your existence.



That's bullshit. Not many countries had the attitude America did in dealing with the Commies. "We'll put in a bunch of murdering Nazi's to drive out the will of the people in a nation (Communism). Not right? Fuck them, we're America and we can do whatever the fuck we want. Democracy is the best choice, we shouldn't let them choose for themselves!"

I don't see anything wrong with that besides your stereotype. Until you can "measure" arrogance without resorting to anecdotal examples, you will never prove your statement.



Canadians are completely not arrogant. Our standing army is a joke around here, our economy is something we know will never get huge again and people generally deal with things on a case to case basis. Our patriotism means having pride in the past and aiming to improve the future. As you said, a lot of American pride deals with pride in whatever the fuck happens.

You say you like to debate over internet. You will never win any debate using generalization.

"The end justify the means. It is pretty scary."

The ends justifies the means can be taken on a case-by-case system as well. It's how I work.


"I don't see anything wrong with that besides your stereotype. Until you can "measure" arrogance without resorting to anecdotal examples, you will never prove your statement."

Is there a scientific way to measure arrogance? And it wasn't an anecdote, it was an example. There was minimal knowledge let alone protest of America's support of Nazis.


"You say you like to debate over internet. You will never win any debate using generalization"

Wasn't it you who said every country is equally arrogant? And what examples did you use? What scientific method did you prove that with? The fact is this is entirely subjective. We'll never reach an agreement. I'll always say that being blindly patriotic is both illogical and detrimental eventually. You'll always say it aids the nation. I'll always say that what aids your nation may destroy another people - but that doesn't come into affect for you.

Xev

A - Live in the UK, you know, the country Bush is manipulating
B - Thank You for agreeing on the US being late in War bit
C - I am an athiest, that doesn't mean Americans don't say GOD BLESS AMERICA
D - Damn that Unicorn
E - My point being that the US is violating a UN HUMAN RIGHT
F - I know, I'm tired
G - Well, the Americans attitude is one of being the best at everything

At least the Canadians are modest. I'd rather go to Canada than the States.

I can see why you lot are patriotic about your country (its YOUR country) but at the same time, I can't see why. You have the highest crime rates, your food sucks, your TV is rubbish, your law system is FKD and you live in the most hypocritical country on the face of this planet

Your country is young, but you will learn

Xev, Joeman. Try to understand what we are saying. You seem to misunderstand almost everything

Originally posted by static76

This thread is about flags, and when I think of the American flag I think of the ideals and hope of it's people (yeh I know it sounds sappy). Racism is a cancer on our society Joeman. To act cavalier about it and say it can be a good thing, just shows how out of touch you really are.
Racism IS a cancer in our society, but there will always be racism. Being afraid of "something strange" is human nature. Racism actually starts out from human nature. A lot of people are afraid of black people or going into Mexican neighborhood. Ending racism is a two way street. First you must eliminate ignorance from one end, and on the other end you must prove you are not inferior. Racism is based on fear and superiority complex. I don't believe anyone should just automatically respect someone by default. Respect must be earned. To end racism, each person must do his/her own part to gain another race's respect.

I don't have a cavalier attitude about it. I always have this philosophy "adjusting to the environment instead of waiting for the environment adjusting to you." I am not going to end racism by waiting for other people to stop being racist. There is racism. I live with it. There is not much I can do. I try to let it work for me instead of letting it work against me. You think it is idiotic, but I can't really see why.



If you think that the things I mentioned before couldn't happen again in any "civilized countries", then your very naive. Segregation in America only ended a little over 30 years ago, Stalin's and Mao Tse-Tung's massacres were only around 50 years ago. The Holocaust and Internment camps were only 60 years ago. Shall I go on...
People learn history so it won't happen again.



Thinking it can never happen again, will only allow it to happen again. The whole idea of their even being different "races" is so retarded, I feel strange even discussing this.
There is no such thing as race genetically, but since race is a social construct, there is race.

Your not helping with eliminating ignorance by actually being ignorant

Tyler:

Ug. You made a comment stating that American arrogance/ignorance could not be removed

Ummm, no I did not.

It would be appreciated if you read my posts and tried to understand them before replying.

Or at least stop constructing straw men.


And I did not say you did. What I'm saying is that the attitude is quite common.

So why direct it to me?


Blind patriotism allows these type of actions to exist. You said Americans shouldn't give a flying fuck that they are annoyingly and blindly patriotic.

I never said that. Where are you getting this from?!

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, what is is with you and straw men?


if a people were not blindly patriotic they would likely not stand for actions such as Argentina and Trujillo.... I may be wrong, and I'm guessing that if I am you'll show me how.

The elimination of blind patriotism is a step on the road to this, I agree, but it will not mean they will keep their governments from supporting Videleas and Trujillos.


"You will grow up."

That is a sincere hope, not a strawman.

Speaking of which, I think I'm going to start counting the strawmen you construct from now on.

Thor:

A - Live in the UK, you know, the country Bush is manipulating

With the consent of Blair, sorry. I don't like it either.


B - Thank You for agreeing on the US being late in War bit

Of course. I'm not a rabid patriot. Perhaps I've been a bit of a bitch to you, but I don't think that the US has an unsullied record by any means.


C - I am an athiest, that doesn't mean Americans don't say GOD BLESS AMERICA

I am too, and from what I've observed, its more of a request to God than a statement "God blesses America".

*Smiles*

Look at the way He treated His chosen people. I don't think Americans should ask for this.


E - My point being that the US is violating a UN HUMAN RIGHT

Why do you care what happens to Americans? Other than the occasional cheer when a few thousand of us are killed, why should you care at all?


At least the Canadians are modest. I'd rather go to Canada than the States.

It is cleaner and quieter, as well as safer. But our women are cuter.


I can see why you lot are patriotic about your country (its YOUR country) but at the same time, I can't see why. You have the highest crime rates, your food sucks, your TV is rubbish, your law system is FKD and you live in the most hypocritical country on the face of this planet

This is true. I suppose I am a patriot

"For all we could have done
And all we could have been"

And for all we could do, and could be.

Originally posted by Tyler
"The end justify the means. It is pretty scary."

The ends justifies the means can be taken on a case-by-case system as well. It's how I work.

No. I believe you are still wrong. As long as the foreign policy of the politicians work for American's best interest, they should be supported 100%. Always. Questioning their effort would be unpatriotic. Being mean or terrible to another country don't always benefit US in the long run. Most of the time they don't. As long as it benefits US, I don't give a damn.



Is there a scientific way to measure arrogance? And it wasn't an anecdote, it was an example. There was minimal knowledge let alone protest of America's support of Nazis.


"You say you like to debate over internet. You will never win any debate using generalization"

Wasn't it you who said every country is equally arrogant? And what examples did you use? What scientific method did you prove that with? The fact is this is entirely subjective. We'll never reach an agreement. I'll always say that being blindly patriotic is both illogical and detrimental eventually. You'll always say it aids the nation. I'll always say that what aids your nation may destroy another people - but that doesn't come into affect for you.

I don't know if there is a scientific way, but by giving examples won't cut it. Conclusions based on only examples don't work. I don't need to prove my point. I can just use the magic word "Gaussian distribution"

Originally posted by Thor
Xev, Joeman. Try to understand what we are saying. You seem to misunderstand almost everything

There seems to be nothing to be understood. If there is, it is "your responsibility" for us to understand it.

Blair is sticking up for himself though. Probably his wife saying 'HE'S PUSHING YOU AROUND, ARE YOU A MAN OR A MOUSE?'

The reason I'm concerned with the US violating Human Rights is that I think anyone violating any human right is wrong. I don't see how the UN have allowed that to go on for so long.

"But our women are cuter" - Agreed

"Ummm, no I did not"

Here's what I read: "Annoying to you, sure. Most of the world hates us. *Smiles* There's no way to change this, so why bother? The thing to do is to stay safe and ethical at the same time."

And for some reason I thought you were dealing with what you quoted from me which was about arrogance and ignorance. My bad.


"I never said that. Where are you getting this from?"

From here: "Basically, I'm saying that no American should give a flying fuck whether the rest of the world thinks we are annoyingly patriotic."


"So why direct it to me?"

Did I? Did I say - Xev you are... Or did I state what the world despises?


"The elimination of blind patriotism is a step on the road to this, I agree, but it will not mean they will keep their governments from supporting Videleas and Trujillos"

If America, at the time, had been less blindly patriotic there is a good chance that they wouldn't have supported the; "get rid of the commies no matter what" belief.


"Speaking of which, I think I'm going to start counting the strawmen you construct from now on."

That's fine. I only find it interesting that you're so hypocritcal. You have accused me with being more concerned with being right than debating. Then in a catholic thread you (a) ignore the fact that I didn't put it in the religion form and (b) somehow conviniently skip over the part where I say "hmm, you're right" and start calling me a bigot and an idiot because it is not idolatry in the biblical sense. So who was more concerned with being right? Anyway, I'm rambling and this paragraph was pointless.

"As long as it benefits US, I don't give a damn."

And that's the kicker. And Americans wonder why the rest of the world hates them?


"I don't know if there is a scientific way, but by giving examples won't cut it"

There is no scientific way. Unless they've invented an objective arrogance-o-meter that I don't know about.

Originally posted by Joeman

Racism IS a cancer in our society, but there will always be racism. Being afraid of "something strange" is human nature. Racism actually starts out from human nature. A lot of people are afraid of black people or going into Mexican neighborhood. Ending racism is a two way street. First you must eliminate ignorance from one end, and on the other end you must prove you are not inferior. Racism is based on fear and superiority complex. I don't believe anyone should just automatically respect someone by default. Respect must be earned. To end racism, each person must do his/her own part to gain another race's respect.

I don't have a cavalier attitude about it. I always have this philosophy "adjusting to the environment instead of waiting for the environment adjusting to you." I am not going to end racism by waiting for other people to stop being racist. There is racism. I live with it. There is not much I can do. I try to let it work for me instead of letting it work against me. You think it is idiotic, but I can't really see why.



Why would any so-called "race" have to prove they are not inferior or gain another "race"'s respect???? There is NO genetic difference between "races", and any superiority complex one might have, is based on their arrogance and ignorance.

If you can't see why I think racism is idiotic, then I feel sorry for you.


People learn history so it won't happen again.

:D This is ridiculous, people have shown throughout history that they DON'T learn from the past.


There is no such thing as race genetically, but since race is a social construct, there is race.
You got it half right. Yes, there is no such thing as race genetically.

But race is not a social construct, it's just a dumb catergorization based on a person's skin color, or religion.

Originally posted by Thor

Live in the UK, you know, the country Bush is manipulating

That is because UK can benefit itself from being manipulated.



I can see why you lot are patriotic about your country (its YOUR country) but at the same time, I can't see why. You have the highest crime rates, your food sucks, your TV is rubbish, your law system is FKD and you live in the most hypocritical country on the face of this planet

Your country is young, but you will learn

Hahahaha. You say our food sucks, but what about yours? UK has the worst food period. Yeah our TV sucks but you keep watching it.

Thor:

Blair is sticking up for himself though. Probably his wife saying 'HE'S PUSHING YOU AROUND, ARE YOU A MAN OR A MOUSE?

At least she is not smacking him around so that he must make up excuses like "I choked on a pretzel" :p


The reason I'm concerned with the US violating Human Rights is that I think anyone violating any human right is wrong. I don't see how the UN have allowed that to go on for so long.

The UN needs the US' support too badly to try and stop it. I think that Americans, such as our ACLU, must do the job.

I do not think that the UN, or anyone else for that matter, should intervene unless absolutely necessary, though.

Joeman:

No. I believe you are still wrong. As long as the foreign policy of the politicians work for American's best interest, they should be supported 100%. Always. Questioning their effort would be unpatriotic.

I do not mean to lose this debate through Godwin's law, but I can see Germans saying that about Hitler back in '39.


As long as it benefits US, I don't give a damn.

What makes the US so special?

That is true about British food, though.

Tyler:

And for some reason I thought you were dealing with what you quoted from me which was about arrogance and ignorance. My bad.

That's okay, I thought you were smart enough to understand that I was referring to the fact that most of the world hates us. My bad.


From here: "Basically, I'm saying that no American should give a flying fuck whether the rest of the world thinks we are annoyingly patriotic."

Yes, see the words "the rest of the world thinks" ?

Here, I'll underline them for you:


Basically, I'm saying that no American should give a flying fuck whether the rest of the world thinks we are annoyingly patriotic.

Make sense now?


If America, at the time, had been less blindly patriotic there is a good chance that they wouldn't have supported the; "get rid of the commies no matter what" belief.

This assertion may be correct, but it is still mere assertion. I agree, though.

I know British food is crap. Italian food is the best.

I do watch US TV, its still bad, but so's British. You do make good films, I'll give you that

How can England benefit from being led around by its nose. Diddly, thats what. Oh, the unwanted thanks from the yanks.

The US is throwing its weight around too much. It's getting away with murder. The USA is the MicroSoft of countries.

"That's okay, I thought you were smart enough to understand that I was referring to the fact that most of the world hates us. My bad."

I thought you were smart enough to see the words "Good point, I agree" in the Catholic thread. I thought you were smart enough to realize that I started the thread in Free Thoughts not in Religion. My bad.


"Yes, see the words "the rest of the world thinks" ?"

I say - You said Americans shouldn't give a flying fuck that they are annoyingly and blindly patriotic.
You say - I never said that
I quote you - "Basically, I'm saying that no American should give a flying fuck whether the rest of the world thinks we are annoyingly patriotic."

So what you're saying is that what the rest of the world thinks doesn't matter to what is actual subjective fact? I made the mistake in claiming a subjective idea to be fact. Now, to clear it up.

You say that Americans should not care that the rest of the planet considers them blindly patriotic. Then you say that you do NOT think that Americans shoudl not care that they are blindly patriotic. It is not a matter of what the rest of the world thinks. It is simply true that America as a society has been blindly patriotic. As evident by the complete lack of knowledge on Nazi-supporting, the common belief that America was a major player in both world wars (the second they were, I'm not denying that), Joeman's rather common belief that "if it helps America I don't give a damn" and other things.


"This assertion may be correct, but it is still mere assertion. I agree, though"

Tis. And I can't prove it. I don't have the capabilities to go back in time and see what would have happened.

" thought you were smart enough to see the words "Good point, I agree" in the Catholic thread. I thought you were smart enough to realize that I started the thread in Free Thoughts not in Religion. My bad."

I apologize. That was pointless and unnecessary and brought the level of this debate down a notch.

Originally posted by static76

Why would any so-called "race" have to prove they are not inferior or gain another "race"'s respect???? There is NO genetic difference between "races", and any superiority complex one might have, is based on their arrogance and ignorance.

If you can't see why I think racism is idiotic, then I feel sorry for you.
Racism is natural. Otherwise we don't have to fight it. Superiorty complex can be based on arrogance and ignorance but also based a lot on perception. To change the perception, you must do something concrete. By saying "we are all equal" just won't cut it.



You got it half right. Yes, there is no such thing as race genetically.

But race is not a social construct, it's just a dumb catergorization based on a person's skin color, or religion.

Race is a social construct for all practical purpose. May not for an idealogue but in real world it is. Race is much deeper than categorization of skin color. People of the same race usually hang out together. In places with very little racism, like Minnesota, minorities still hang out with their own kind because they feel more comfortable. Race is definitely a social construction. You would be blind not to believe it.

Thor:

MICRO$OFT! You go too far!

BTW, Indian food is best, followed by Japanese, followed by Italian, and there are good British TV series (like Red Dwarf).

America is doing what all superpowers do, what your country did once, Thor. I do not like it, but we are not evil.

Tyler:

So what you're saying is that what the rest of the world thinks doesn't matter to what is actual subjective fact?

Americans must lose this tendancy in order to retain power and keep our country from becoming a monster. Not because the French might like us.

Frankly, you don't know jack shit about what Americans are like. Your comment on the internment camps proves this. As does your comment on Americans being shocked by 9/11.

If you had any intellectual respect for yourself, you'd listen to somone who knows Americans rather than to your own voice. C'est la vie.

Originally posted by Xev
Joeman:

I do not mean to lose this debate through Godwin's law, but I can see Germans saying that about Hitler back in '39.

I don't know what is Godwin's law. What Hitler did in 39 did not benefit the German's in the long run. I don't consider having your country bombed flat benefiting any.



What makes the US so special?

If US can become relatively rich and powerful, US must have done something right.

US is actually not so special because US has looked after its own interest like any other countries in the world would. It would make US special if US doesn't.

"BTW, Indian food is best, followed by Japanese, followed by Italian, and there are good British TV series (like Red Dwarf)."

Indonesian you forgot. Ditto Thai. But yes Japanese is kick ass.
Never been much of an Italian fan myself. I was made to have it from a young age and eventually got sick of spaghetti. Though, I still love Calzone's!!!


"Americans must lose this tendancy in order to retain power and keep our country from becoming a monster. Not because the French might like us."

I see. So this comes down to an old, old comment of yours. "Someone should change not because another asks them to, but because they want to." Fair enough.


"Frankly, you don't know jack shit about what Americans are like. Your comment on the internment camps proves this. As does your comment on Americans being shocked by 9/11."

Like I said; "I was 13 and so were they so it doesn't really count."


"If you had any intellectual respect for yourself, you'd listen to somone who knows Americans rather than to your own voice."

I'm more than willing to. The problem is, no one has said anything. Joeman said 'America wasn't shocked at being attacked.' I said 'my experience and the magazines I read seemed quite shocked at the fact that such a large attack had occured' Then no one replied to try and correct me with any evidence to support them (I had used minimal evidence, only quoting the one People magazine from Sept 11th which is 5 feet away from me). In other words - it may not be that I'm not willing to listen, but that no one has talked.

Joeman;

"I don't know what is Godwin's law. What Hitler did in 39 did not benefit the German's in the long run. I don't consider having your country bombed flat benefiting any."

What Hitler did from 1933-1937 did however.


"If US can become relatively rich and powerful, US must have done something right."

Being rich and powerful makes you more important?

Originally posted by Tyler
Being rich and powerful makes you more important?

The answer is, of course, YES. US is considered a very important country in the world (obviously)

Originally posted by Joeman

Racism is natural. Otherwise we don't have to fight it. Superiorty complex can be based on arrogance and ignorance but also based a lot on perception. To change the perception, you must do something concrete. By saying "we are all equal" just won't cut it.
[/B]

Prejudice is natural, not racism. Having stereotypes about others is very different from oppressing others. How is racism natural when the whole concept of there being different "human races", is a falsehood?

We ARE all equal as humans Joeman. The only real differences between humans are our morality, knowledge, etc. Not some made-up category called "race", that's based on one's skin color.

How is discriminating based on one's skin color or religion, any better than doing it based on someone's eye or hair color, or by how tall they are. It's all moronic.


Race is a social construct for all practical purpose. May not for an idealogue but in real world it is. Race is much deeper than categorization of skin color. People of the same race usually hang out together. In places with very little racism, like Minnesota, minorities still hang out with their own kind because they feel more comfortable. Race is definitely a social construction. You would be blind not to believe it.

I disagree. People usually hang out with people of the same socially economic class. Segregation in America did a good job of forcefully seperating people, but in my age group (I'm 26), mostly no one gives a damn about race and these divisions are being brought down the younger generation... I hope :( .

Originally posted by Tyler
I'm more than willing to. The problem is, no one has said anything. Joeman said 'America wasn't shocked at being attacked.' I said 'my experience and the magazines I read seemed quite shocked at the fact that such a large attack had occured' Then no one replied to try and correct me with any evidence to support them (I had used minimal evidence, only quoting the one People magazine from Sept 11th which is 5 feet away from me). In other words - it may not be that I'm not willing to listen, but that no one has talked.

I told you earlier that the American Media is all about drama and fear. Here in LA, if there is a drop of drizzle our local news goes into "Storm Watch". Last year was the "Year of the shark", yet shark attacks were actually down in our country. The list can go on.

The evidence that American were preparing for terrorism is vast, look at the laws we enacted, like the anti-terrorism act that Clinton passed, or the many polls that show Americans expected a terrorist attack sometime in the near future.

Originally posted by static76

Prejudice is natural, not racism. Having stereotypes about others is very different from oppressing others. How is racism natural when the whole concept of there being different "human races", is a falsehood?

We ARE all equal as humans Joeman. The only real differences between humans are our morality, knowledge, etc. Not some made-up category called "race", that's based on one's skin color.

How is discriminating based on one's skin color or religion, any better than doing it based on someone's eye or hair color, or by how tall they are. It's all moronic.

prejudice, racism, same difference. I mainly disagree on the approach and how we should do about it. All I am saying is, it's here today, and it will be here tomorrow. It will not go away. One must use it as a motivation force. If you can do so, you have turn something negative into a positive.



I disagree. People usually hang out with people of the same socially economic class. Segregation in America did a good job of forcefully seperating people, but in my age group (I'm 26), mostly no one gives a damn about race and these divisions are being brought down the younger generation... I hope :( .

I am skeptical. Actually I don't believe it. In college for example, everyone hangs out with their race still. There are only two social economic classes in college. You are either poor or you are not . There is no discrepancy in income between blacks and hispanics. In theory they should hang out with each other a lot.

I am skeptical. Actually I don't believe it. In college for example, everyone hangs out with their race still. There are only two social economic classes in college. You are either poor or you are not . There is no discrepancy in income between blacks and hispanics. In theory they should hang out with each other a lot.

What college did you go to? I went to UCLA, and all "races" hang out together. Maybe it's a LA or big city thing. I'm black and half my friends are either latino, asian or white. Yes the older generations have their issues, but when you look at people under 30, there is hope that racism is on it's way out.

In college people hang out with others of the same interst, like fratenities, majors, and sport interests.

The main obstacle to ending this, is the Media. The American News Media has an agenda in dividing the races, because it's easier to manipulate us that way. Controversy means ratings, and both Democrats and Republicans love to play us off each other for their own political gain. The Jesse Jackson, Pat Buchanon, Al Sharpton, David Duke generation is hopefully on it's way out.

Wow, we have really drifted off the topic of this thread....:o

Originally posted by static76

What college did you go to?

undergrad UW-Madison
grad Stanford & Umass

In Wisconsin some football players transfered because they complained there are not enough black people. No joke.

Everyone still hangs out with their own race, except all Asian chicks date white guys. California is definitely the most racially liberal state. So is Washington and Oregon. You can't say the same about elsewhere. Wisconsin is a blue colar state, so your theory doesn't really hold except in California.

Originally posted by Joeman


undergrad UW-Madison
grad Stanford & Umass

In Wisconsin some football players transfered because they complained there are not enough black people. No joke.

Everyone still hangs out with their own race, except all Asian chicks date white guys. California is definitely the most racially liberal state. So is Washington and Oregon. You can't say the same about elsewhere. Wisconsin is a blue colar state, so your theory doesn't really hold except in California.

True, bute Wisconsin isn't a very diverse state and many of the people there aren't very "friendly", to minorties if you know what I mean.:(

Alot of my white friends from the Midwest tell me jokes about how racist their parents were, and all the things they told them about Blacks, Latinos, Jews and Asians. They recognize that their parents are just from an older generation that had different beliefs. The Big city influence is slowly spreading throughtout "middle America", and the up and coming generation is much more tolerant.

If you look at American culture you can see how things are changing. Like many have said, Who ever thought we would see the day that the top golfer would be Black, and the top rapper would be white.

Times are changing....

Originally posted by static76
Who ever thought we would see the day that the top golfer would be Black

Doesn't he have a Thai mother? That would make him Asian too.

Doesn't he have a Thai mother? That would make him Asian too.

Remember, there is no genetic basis for race. When people use the term black or white it should be based on skin color (although as Xev pointed out earlier, neither's skin is really black or white).:bugeye:

God bless America! God unbless all other countries, and God bless America!

When Jesus returns, he's not going to go to Israel. He's not going to go to England or Canada. He's going to go to the land of the free and home of the brave! USA! USA! USA! WOOOO! And he'll go to an American baseball game and watch the New York Yankees beat the Toronto Blue Jays. And then he'll eat some 100% American apple pie. And then he'll go to the Army recruiters and enlist, because Jesus Christ is a real American hero. That's right -- white skinned, brown haired, born in Israel 2000 years ago -- Jesus loves his stars and stripes! Jesus looks up to Uncle Sam as a son would his father, and can't wait to serve his country! And on the day of Final Judgement, all Americans will get to go to heaven, and all others will be judged traitors and terrorists and will be barred from entering the pearly gates! And the voice of the Lord thy God will gloriously boom down from the heavens saying, "THE GREATEST OF ALL SINS: THOU SHALT NOT BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN AMERICAN!"

God DAMN it feels good to be an American! :D

Good, let America have him. I don't want him anywhere near here. He must be a zombie if he comes back now

I don't consider the US important. We'd be just fine without you guys.

(that was sarcasm -- exaggerating Christian-American patriotism to make a point about how silly it is)

it true what thor said about america making themselves feel big. for christ sake they go far just to get themselves on t.v to prove how "great they are" they even steal techolongy like the Jet engine in the second world war, I say do friends or allies steal from each other no i don't think so!

second of all Why oh why america dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima they never knew how powerful the A-bomb so they just dropped it without reasiling the danger of wiping out thousands of japanese and other japanese leading on their slow death the pain is still going on for long time. When they found out about the damage in japan they must be hopping around celebrating like hell shouting "i am the most powerful country in the world "

America you may be the most powerful country in the world but you're not the only one.

America you may be the most powerful country in the world but you're not the only one.

Ya, no shit! Thats why were always helping the rest of the world out. And thats why we pour money into third world countries. But we only do that to make ourselves look better:rolleyes:

Damn! I missed all the arguing!!!! All I have to say is we do not think we are better than anyone. If an American goes to any other country, he/she is almost always looked down upon. Thats bullshit. We are one of the most diverse countrys in the world. But we think were better than everyone else? Ya, okay. Makes sense.:rolleyes:

But back to the REAL subject. The flag. It means or is actually just a symbol of my country. When I look at it I see how far weve come and also how much further we need to go. And I do feel proud when I look at it. Sorry, you all can call me a rascism arrogant Yankie if you want. But a person who does not feel proud when they look at their countries flag, well there is something wrong. This thread has turned into an American bashing thread. And thats just sad. I truly wish y'all could look deeper than what you see. You dont want to see the good that we have done, only the bad. And thats pretty narrow minded if you ask me.

Take care:)

http://www.sanctuary.yo.lv/karogs_latvijas.jpg

I'm a patriot and a nationalist

Good for you! And thanks for the honesty. Some people in here will tell you thats in wrong to be a patriot! I say.... Be proud of where you came from - just dont be arrogant:)

lol- I'm not arrogant:D
We're a very small country, but that doesn't make me less proud

And thats why we pour money into third world countries.

No, that's to get your hands on their natural resources, be able to store military closer to the enemy, be able to dump overproduction and suffocate the local market,...

And oh, to help people.

I'm sorry, but don't be too naive about third world help. If USA AND the rest of the world were really serious about it, much more money would go there, along with knowledge and know how.

Notice how the 'and' is in capitals. That's cause I do not wish to bash America.


But a person who does not feel proud when they look at their countries flag, well there is something wrong.

I don't know... I support our national footbal team. I promote Belgian bands... maybe I am a little proud about our stuff, but not about the country.


I truly wish y'all could look deeper than what you see. You dont want to see the good that we have done, only the bad. And thats pretty narrow minded if you ask me.

I strongly agree.

A2ever,

Whatever. Thats not the point I was aiming for. I was simply stating that we know were not the only country in the world, like Brolly claims. Despite your logic, we do try to help other nations. And Im not talking about the government, Im talking about the hardworking people in this nation. People that volunteer over seas, join the peace corps and/or military, and people that donate their own money to improve the conditions in third world countries. It may not be much to you, but its something.

now that what i wanna see

i want to see many countries including America and Britain just stop and think of the people who are suffering in the third world i know there are charities but they need more and it best to have all the leading countries and help them out or the people will have no happiness and they just die of Aids.

Ya, I agree Brolly. The situation is a very sad one. Hmmm.. maybe Ill start another thread....

In my theory AIDS is just a way our planet is getting rid of overpopulation

and just let aids speads all over the world until the world has no popualtion

that also why they are trying to help the people from the third world
mmmmm.

In my theory AIDS is just a way our planet is getting rid of overpopulation

You would think alot different if all of your friends and family was dying from it...

disagree

mostly homosexualists and narcomans get aids.

the rest- it's a too insignificant ammount

not true

we all can get aids

have you got proof

i thought so

you got something against the gays and narcomans

not so likely like the people in categories I mentioned

and on overall scale- even aids doesn't take that much lives.

if we get another disease loose, then we are really fucked

ebola, some genetically modified virii or smth lk tht

edit to add: aids is not so threataning also because it doesn't spread in air

Avatar,

What is a narcome? And your saying the majority are homosexuals? No, the majority is black women in Africa (heterosexual by the way) who get AIDS. Soo... where the hell are you getting your data from? And everyone gets AIDS. I know a couple that are not gay who have it. I know really good looking straight males that have AIDS. Your posts are extremely biased.

sorry - I meant narcomans (people using intravenous drugs - with needles)

Black women in africa isn't whole world

I was and am thinking/talking globaly

aids isn't a threat to all human race
there are other more serious things to worry about...


sorry....I sound mean and without morals....
maybe...

Thanks stRgrl for backing me up

No problem Brolly.

Now you have to be my slave:D

where are you Xev?
Avatar doesn't need backup, but is feeling alone

mmm.. don't care i got no point in this world i just sit back and relax

Originally posted by Brolly
have you got proof

i thought so

you got something against the gays and narcomans
nothing against. I was just mentioning the overall tendency

and meant those narcomans who use intravenous drugs


proof- just what I've heard in tv news and read on i-net

Originally posted by Brolly
mmm.. don't care i got no point in this world i just sit back and relax

lol- just what I'm doing now

listening chillout music and relaxing at pleasant discussions at sciforums

me listening Final Fantasy soundtrack

Star:

Now you have to be my slave

Well you certainly shouldn't pay him!

Avatar:

I am still right here.

Brolly:

not true

we all can get aids

We can all get AIDS, but we get it through specific behaviors:
Unprotected sex, especially anal.
Needle sharing with an infected person.

Avatar is right that male homosexuals and IV drug users are at highest risk. All sexually active people have some risk, but those who are careful do not run huge risks.

While research on the virus is important, AIDS will not be the end of humanity.

If it were to mutate, become stronger more resilient, that would be fucked.

Sacred Spirit - Stop the Rain
Altan - The waves of Gola
David Arkenstone - Jewels of the Night
Adiemus - Kayama
+ exactly 100 more chillout songs

As was mentioned by Xev, AIDS can be gotten by anyone with unprotected sex. It knows no boundaries and no politics.

In unprotected sex you share with your partners those of 10 to 15 years ago who were partners, because the disease stays in the system once infected.

I think that many of the American bashers are guilty of tunnel vision and if they truely knew what their own governments were capable of if would be a different matter. No one can help the blind...

I think that many of the American bashers are guilty of tunnel vision and if they truely knew what their own governments were capable of if would be a different matter.

Well said Wet1:)

RE: My patriotism
The good feelings I feel for America always seem to be tinged by the bad. I love the variety and beauty of the land and the ingenuity and beauty of the people. Where else could my baby cousin, a "racial" mixture of Mexican, black, French, Irish, and native American, grow surrounded by people who love him, not hated for some aspect of "race." I love the fact that my Irish ancestors came here and were able to live more freely than in Ireland. But I hate the fact that those same Irish ancestors were labeled with the never-ending labels given to immigrants (lazy, have too many children, dirty, stingy, uneducated, etc.) and I hate the fact that my Navaho ancestors were driven like cattle onto government designated lands. I hate the fact that this "democracy" was built on the backs of slaves, on the lands of slaughtered natives, and continues to rise on the backs of the poor and enslaved in other countries.

RE: The British
Thor,
The US learned its colonizing ways and arrogance from the British Empire. No matter how rebellious those original colonists were, they were still British, and those British colonists are the ones who set up most of the standards (good and bad) for this country. Oh yeah, the British "gave" back Ireland and India, only after a few revolts and massacres, and only after infecting the natives with the British sense of superiority (white/English-speaking=good, brown/non-English-speaking=bad). Oh wait, isn't part of Ireland still part of the British empire.... Americans must accept responsiblity (i.e. use the guilt they feel to find ways for exploitation to stop) for their exploitation of others and the human results of that exploitation, just as the British should take responsibility for their past exploitation of conquered peoples. (Exploitation, I might add, which the British are still reaping the benefits--and curses--of.)


RE: Burning the Flag
Why is burning a flag any worse than flying it from the side of your car until it is torn into tatters or thrown about in the dirty street and run over by the wheels of other cars? I find that much more unpatriotic than burning the flag...using a patriotic symbol as some plastic logo for pseudo-patriotism. I was so pissed off at all the stupid little flags flying on people's cars after 9/11 because I thought "I wonder how many of these people even voted in the last election." The US flag is no longer a symbol of freedom (except for perhaps the freedom to be "consumers" instead of "citizens"), it is a symbol, for much of the world, anyway, of colonialism and rampant greed. When I was little I believed what they told me. I adored Betsy Ross. I even wanted to make a dress out of a flag, until my mother introduced me to the wonderful world of politics by saying that by doing that I would be dishonoring the flag (like that 'hippy' Abbie Hoffman did by wearing his flag shirt). The flag has become a soiled symbol in too short a time.

Joeman:
"As long as the foreign policy of the politicians work for American's best interest, they should be supported 100%. Always. Questioning their effort would be unpatriotic."

Questioning their effort would be a part of the democratic process, a process we have all but forgotten. This is where my patriotism/idealism really comes in: I believe the Revolution was fought not to make America wealthier, but to create that great experiment of democracy that all the world waited with bated breath to see the outcome (bad paraphrase of Tocqueville). I hate to say it, but from where I sit (hick-USA, and listening/reading comments like those from Joeman) the experiment has failed.


XEV "when you are in power, everyone hates you."

When you use your power as a bully, that is when everyone hates you.

"I am too, and from what I've observed, its more of a request to God than a statement "God blesses America". "
Where I live (Bakersfield--Buck Owen's country) I feel like they are somehow giving an order "God BLESS america."

Originally posted by EvelinaAnville
I was so pissed off at all the stupid little flags flying on people's cars after 9/11 because I thought "I wonder how many of these people even voted in the last election."
Most people bought flags after 9/11 because they care. Not voting doesn't mean unpatriotic. Abstaining is perfectly okay under democracy. There were no good candidates last election. Gore lost. Get over it.



The US flag is no longer a symbol of freedom (except for perhaps the freedom to be "consumers" instead of "citizens"), it is a symbol, for much of the world, anyway, of colonialism and rampant greed.

I am not too sure if US flags has ever been a symbol of freedom. It is a symbol of 50 states and orginal 13 colonies. But your part about colonialism and rampant greed is totally your unpatriotic opinion. US never participated in colonialism.



"As long as the foreign policy of the politicians work for American's best interest, they should be supported 100%. Always. Questioning their effort, would be unpatriotic."

Bullshit. Communicate is the word. You question congressmen's effort every 2 years, president's every 4 years, and senators every 6 years. When an election is over, you have to support the elected candidate 100%. Bashing and whining has to stop. If you don't like the politician, you have your chance to vote them out. That is democratic process. Questioning their effort, especially during war time is unpatriotic.

BTW, I am not a hick by any means. Not even close. So if someone is not unpatriotic then the person is automatcally a hick? You give California liberals a bad name. Not a bad post if you can drop your self-rightous tone, since under democracy everyone is entitled to their own wrong opinion.

Joeman,

There is a comma between Hick-USA and the rest which is meant to delineate two ideas. The Hick-USA I was referring to is where I am located, what I see from where I sit, the town I live in.

Wandering back to the main subject, I agree with Thor's opinion (great minds ;)), flag's just a flag, don't think the British or US flag is particularly pretty, (probably cos they've been shoved in my face way too much) you cannot embody what a nation stands for in a set of colours and patterns, I think it's ridiculous to try.

A4Ever - I have close relatives in Belgium, I noticed there isn't a huge amount of patriotism, seems to be quite a bit of racism too ... So, are you Flemish? Do you actively go about trying to belong to one group and not the other (and being proud)?

Here's a question. You know people say that people fought for the flag and died for their country. How come you yanks virtually spit on Vietnam Veterans. They were A - Fighting for what they believed in (no communism) B - Following orders from their country

And the people doing the spitting were opposing a war. They were also draft dodgers and rather violent flowers. Do you see people spitting on them today?

The flag is a symbol of our country, and the hopes and dreams that formed it(see the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution). Some of those dreams got screwed up, but one of the dreams was the ability to fix it. The symbolic nature is that people see the flag and think, "America," and then think of what that means to them. That depends on what our politicians do, and in most countries, that can be changed.