"The personal is political"

BigBlueHead

01-28-04, 02:14 PM

K, I'll try to explain - apologies if this gets long-winded.

In general, in society, there is a large group of people who wish to have membership in a group. The benefits of having membership in a group are often advocated both directly and indirectly, but even without this sort of advertisement there are often people who want to be given a sort of direction for their lives... to be told what to do, if you like.

These groups often have a leader or implied leader of some sort that effectively hands down the orders, although the orders will be handed down by way of several proxies in most cases, and may change quite drastically. The Catholic church, for instance, may discover that some of its ministers preach tolerance of homosexuals where official doctrine does not. All the same, all of the people in the group still believe themselves to be the same kind of people, even if their beliefs are opposed (as in, antagonistic) in some cases. Usually, sufficient excuses are made by each subgroup to consider the others "still brothers/sisters/whatevers". The actual breakup of a group usually only comes after much conflict.

Now, these groups are not discrete and can overlap, as I believe you mentioned. A common problem of most groups is the splintering thereof; a good thing to remember is that, in every group you are a member of, there will be a smaller group that you are not a member of. (Unless it's your group.) The "feminist" movement, such as it was, suffered this kind of splintering between various subgroups of its members when they came to understand that their banding together as "women" couldn't reconcile their non-gender-based differences of opinion (relating to their age, racial background &c.)

BUT each group generally has either a real or illusionary leader that gives the original orders, however much they may be reinterpreted by proxy leaders. (The simpler the orders, the more easily they are disseminated, for obvious reasons.) Often the initial orders are wildly reinterpreted by the proxies, of course - a good lot of people decided to accept Richard Dawkins as their visionary in terms of genetics, which they took to imply behaviour, and ended up saying what seemed to be nearly the opposite of what Dawkins was originally trying to say.

So... often there will be a very vague group of people, like "American men", who as a group have almost nothing in common other than the nationality and gender implied by the name of the group. These people, though they might not agree on much else normally, still somehow agree on their membership in the group.

Now comes the large proportion of these people (as there will be in many groups) who feel that they benefit much more from external guidance than from their own consideration of how they wish things to be. I agree that the mass media now exerts a strong hold on these people, because it constantly tells them how to dress, behave, what to want, and so on. It comes down not as orders from a single leader, but in the form "Everybody X", where X is a phrase that denotes some behaviour, mode of dress or whatever.

Does everybody really X? Probably not. But if enough respected political figures, such as Jerry or George or Kramer, say everybody X, then the guidance seekers will believe that - since no counterargument is offered - enough people X that they should X too. Along with Xing, they will claim that "everybody X", possibly in the form of a joke used on their favourite TV show. This becomes a form of social pressure for the other guidance seekers, who may be slower on the uptake, but still want to feel that they are doing the right thing according to accepted social rules.

So it comes to pass that a group of people will follow some arbitrary rules placed upon them by their own mutual assent.

NOW

Not all of these orders are created for a reason. The "five-second rule" of edibility in dropped food is not much of a social doctrine, and doesn't really support or detract from the position of any higher-up group of people.

Not all of these orders have their particular structure for a reason. The "little boys play with toy cars" rule helps to bolster the sale of toy cars, but if the toy car companies had instead made concrete kachina dolls, they could have said "little boys play with concrete kachina dolls" instead and had much the same effect.

BUT

Some of the groups are receiving their "everybody X" orders from an actual organization with an actual agenda. The orders will be tailored to that agenda.

The organization may disappear, but if it does, it leaves a headless monster which runs around begging for another head... consequently, the change of leadership usually isn't noticeable from the ground level, because it doesn't necessarily coincide with the change of ideas, since an organization that wants to control a group will usually come armed with the ideas that the group are already supposed to believe in.'

So it's circumstantial, but usually there is an organization controlling any large group of people that all claim co-membership. It may change, but large and widely-spread groups of this kind generally do not lead themselves and are vulnerable to this kind of control.

gendanken

01-28-04, 02:38 PM

Bigblue:

The organization may disappear, but if it does, it leaves a headless monster which runs around begging for another head... consequently, the change of leadership usually isn't noticeable from the ground level, because it doesn't necessarily coincide with the change of ideas, since an organization that wants to control a group will usually come armed with the ideas that the group are already supposed to believe in.'

Smooth. I can sit here and read that till my eyes bleed.

Humans have this nasty habit of feeling life only through membership, and so long as there is a collective to run with he won't have to think about why it is that he finds himself with those people, he'll never define his beliefs in any other words but his neighbor's or the fact that they look, think, or act alike and it doesn't matter a lick that his monster changed heads so long as there are others in its tummy with him taking up the cause they know nothing about as righteously as he is. And just as long as the monster moves at least one of its limbs could you make them feel like they're going anywhere- even though they're all trapped in its tummy choking on bile.

And for these feminists- they'd like to think "sisterhood" once rescued is the most powerful thing in this world but let a man kiss her hand and watch all that fiery patriotism crumble like pie crust. Fucking women.

BigBlueHead

01-28-04, 03:34 PM

Which feminists? There's a bloody lot of different kinds, that group has splintered so badly that only the Popular feminists think that they're still part of anything... and they're the ones who read fashion magazines and fantasize about Colin Farrell chain-smoking in their beds...

Xev

01-28-04, 10:44 PM

gendanken:

The fear is not removing that gospel- by �gospel� I mean that bold voice inside that amplifies this sense of dignity in the midst of swine all around one. The fear is in removing the chains. Somewhere in there, don�t know if this is the case for you, but somewhere in there you realize both power and shackles (as in social ones, no matter with whom and how) ...you realize both those things simultaneously and in one breath you detect the unthinkable- you�ll actually have to exercise this power once you tear those chains from the wall and are you sure you have it? You've just questioned what you thought was unquestionable.

No, I understand - one appreciates the chains because they keep you from having to prove that power, from doing the things that you may well not want to do. Deep down, are you ruthless enough? Smart enough? Strong enough? But the chains keep you from having to risk it all.

There - do you even know what the fuck you're doing? The chains at least keep you knowing, instead of throwing you into absolute confusion where you'll have to find yourself. Again. And again. And again.

You ask how one can conceal her and himself and the easisest answer is ugly. The true one is impossible. Maybe. We'll see.

Gendanken, I know how to conceal myself. What I did made me vile - I smiled a lot and tried to be likable. When I snapped out of that I released my aggression like a fury, like I was trying to prove something to myself. Now that's spent, and I'm wondering if I even care about concealment.

Oh yes, I do.

Impossible? Or does it only require more dedication?

I don't know. I've come close enough to cut everyone off, but I kept returning to humans.
The point where you have liquid nitrogen instead of blood? Know it. But still here I am. I've come so close to the bottom - and I keep bouncing back. And every person is a chain. You know what that means: camraderie is just another way they control you, sex is just another way they control you, understanding is just another way and love is just another way they control you. Rarely do they even know what they're doing. And the alternative is being fucking alone. I don't mean the noble "I have no masters" type of alone, I mean utterly alone. Where's weakness, where's strength? And your destiny or nature or whatever the fuck it is keeps tugging at you.

BigBlueHead:

Which feminists?

The real ones.
Yeah, the movement has split but the core ideals remain the same.
Just because a dumb whore like, say, Suzy Bright or Christina Sommers claims to represent feminism doesn't mean they do.

So it's circumstantial, but usually there is an organization controlling any large group of people that all claim co-membership. It may change, but large and widely-spread groups of this kind generally do not lead themselves and are vulnerable to this kind of control.

Information theory, I like it. You have one or two primary meme bearers, and then you have their ideas spreading out throughout the group in diminishing strength (like the law for universal gravitation) and being modified and enforced by the bulk of the group. An individual is nothing, but their role is essential and yet replacable at the same time.

Depending on the organization and tradition of the group, the meme bearers are either strictly controlled (like in traditional Jewish societies) or pretty much left up to their own devices (American consumer society) and the group forms its shape based on that.

Mrs.Lucysnow

01-28-04, 11:19 PM

Quote:And for these feminists- they'd like to think "sisterhood" once rescued is the most powerful thing in this world but let a man kiss her hand and watch all that fiery patriotism crumble like pie crust.

Too true. As Simone De Beauvoirs admits in The Second Sex a woman's allegiance to her man outweighs any solidarity towards other women.

Quote:camraderie is just another way they control you, sex is just another way they control you, understanding is just another way and love is just another way they control you. Rarely do they even know what they're doing. And the alternative is being fucking alone. I don't mean the noble "I have no masters" type of alone, I mean utterly alone.

Xev why do you see this as their way of controlling and not an opportunity to open up? An expansion?

WANDERER

01-29-04, 07:20 AM

Xev why do you see this as their way of controlling and not an opportunity to open up? An expansion?
I've been trying to convince her of this myself.
The dream of the 'overman' has condemned many to an endless reaching for something they can never reach.
This ideal is reserved for a species other than ours, for a species that is inhuman.

Solitude is a prerequisite of nobility but the experience of being human is not always a noble endeavour. Death, our own mortality, our limitations, our unavoidable weaknesses forces undignified action and thought upon us.

As social beings we must accept our need our dependence on a supporting group, our limitations and our weaknesses cannot be denied only minimized.
What distinguishes one from another is not some absolute state of separateness but a difference in degree and the quality and spirit of the becoming.
It is not that we can become noble in some idealistically absolute way, but only that we can become nobler than the other or in comparison to what we were.
Superiority inferiority is just a matter of gradation in a universe of no absolutes and no perfections.
So if we are to be imperfect let it be with those that share our degree of imperfection.
If we are to be dependant, let it be on those that deserve it and that will appreciate it and reciprocate.

Many in their youth get caught up in the ego, one of the lower levels of lucidity, and so perceive the �I� as the beginning and end of what they are.
In fact man is both individuality and multiplicity man is both a singularity and a part of a whole. Dionysian/Apollonian, Ying/Yang, Mind/Body, Intellect/Instinct.
The acceptance of both sides of human nature or what is called the human condition and the contradicting ways they often relate to one another is the acceptance of the totality of the human experience.
If we are to be servants let it only be servants to our own nature.

BigBlueHead

01-29-04, 08:18 AM

Gendanken/Lucysnow:

That (Simone de Beauvoirs &c.) is why the Lesbian Seperatist feminists came about... pursuit of a stronger form of membership with one another by cutting out the men. Often they make the claim that having men around clouds their real identities...

Identity is often the battle cry in situations where people are trying to claim membership in a group. (I always thought this was strange, because I don't really think of "identity" as being the same as "having a place to belong". But, the comments on chains in the last few posts may argue against that division of mine.) Some people even address their identity as being the sum of their relations with other people - "I am Rosemary's granddaughter, the spitting image of my father blah blah blah" as that one song went. I am still unsure how to feel about people who judge the quality of their character by their social proximity to/popularity with other people, since this seems to carry the implict premise that "any large enough group of people is correct".

Xev:

You have one or two primary meme bearers, and then you have their ideas spreading out throughout the group in diminishing strength (like the law for universal gravitation) and being modified and enforced by the bulk of the group.

Aside: I'm not sure if I like the idea of memes exactly, because I think the evolutionary model of information propagation ignores the importance of agendas - that is, natural selection on organisms has no agenda and is basically random, where social selection on information is more like a kind of "information breeding", whether it's intentional or not. End aside.

Now, you mentioned the media before, which I think is an extremely important development... by having a media presence, the leading organization can reduce its number of proxies (which used to be necessarily large, because it's a kind of pyramid scheme) to a very small and recognizable group. The ostensible leader can speak to you directly as a member of the group. (You can't answer, but that doesn't matter, because information doesn't need to go up the mountain, just down.)

Now what does this mean?

First! The media teaches division between people; they start by teaching you about membership in a group, and then teach you that you'll be unable to communicate with the people outside it... and then the people inside it. The goal is to bring you to a position where you don't feel that you can communicate sideways... only up the ladder. (Of course, information doesn't go up the ladder, just down.) This way, they develop a situation where the only judgement you are told you can trust is theirs, and where you aren't capable of sending out information, only absorbing it.

Then they sell you stuff. Ordinarily, this is the goal. By getting people in the position where they believe that the only thing that makes sense is their media (which we often like to feel is uniquely ours) the media can convince them that their personal value is connected to those material things that they buy.

Xev

01-29-04, 08:39 AM

Lucysnow:

Too true. As Simone De Beauvoirs admits in The Second Sex a woman's allegiance to her man outweighs any solidarity towards other women.

True, economic marginalization fucks people the hell up. On the other hand..."gender" is a poor thing to owe allegience to.

Xev why do you see this as their way of controlling and not an opportunity to open up? An expansion?

I don't say that they do this deliberately. However, personal ties become just that - ties. You're afraid to risk yourself not simply for self-preservation but out of concern for others.
The question ultimately becomes more than whether you can bear pain but whether you can give it.

Blue:
Point taken on memes, but that's off topic.

Now, you mentioned the media before, which I think is an extremely important development... by having a media presence, the leading organization can reduce its number of proxies (which used to be necessarily large, because it's a kind of pyramid scheme) to a very small and recognizable group. The ostensible leader can speak to you directly as a member of the group. (You can't answer, but that doesn't matter, because information doesn't need to go up the mountain, just down.)

Oprah.
Yes, the proxies can be fewer but more public.

Then they sell you stuff. Ordinarily, this is the goal. By getting people in the position where they believe that the only thing that makes sense is their media (which we often like to feel is uniquely ours) the media can convince them that their personal value is connected to those material things that they buy.

One question - you speak of goals and intents. Do you believe this is done deliberately or as a natural process?

I'll respond in depth later, I have class.

BigBlueHead

01-29-04, 11:50 AM

One question - you speak of goals and intents. Do you believe this is done deliberately or as a natural process?

Unhhh... hard question.

I believe that it can easily be done without intention, but may be done deliberately by a skilled organization. I'll try to explain, although I know this isn't clear (that is, it's a matter of degree to some extent).

Least degree: When you communicate with another person in any way you have to adopt a context with them, so in a very simplistic way you demand their membership in your linguistic context. This is a hideous oversimplification of behaviour as product, however, so I'll say that it's possible to communicate with another person without "selling" them anything.

Greater degree: When you try to adopt someone into your group in an attempt to increase your group's numbers - i.e. recruiting - the techniques you use may be relatively intuitive/unconscious. When someone says, "Don't you want to have a group of people who will love you and take care of you?" this may not be a deliberate attempt at sales exactly, but only an appeal to the emotion that they are feeling. This may be just as manipulative as any other technique but is not necessarily deliberate.

Still greater degree: Some of those who sell products/ideologies may use a technique without understanding the nature or degree of its effects. This is the case with a lot of advertising, where it will be implicitly claimed that failure to buy a product will result in your life continuing to be as shabby and unfulfilling as you fear it might be in relation to others. "Lifestyle advertising" (as an example) is an appeal to the fear of the individual that they may be disrespected by others for being of lesser quality or achievement, but at the same time its effects are largely obvious and avoidable to a person who is educated in its nature. That is, when someone points out that the only time a commercial will refer to a dog as "she" is when it's a fat dog on a doggie weight loss commercial, you may thereafter notice that there's a prevalence of media which implies that all females are fat. These are the sorts of effort that a single person can easily spot without help by observing.

Greatest degree I have yet to find words to describe: As a support to the previous kind of manipulation, a new technique has begun to be used deliberately, although I'm sure it existed before. A commercial will cast two people, a wife and husband for instance, as opposing sides in a neverending war of natures that cannot be won by either side. By attempting to drive a wedge between people who would normally communicate freely, the advertiser can restrict the viewers to the kind of self-education listed above. That is, they hope that the wife will not listen her husband when he says "These commercials make people psychotic about dirt in their homes. A sparkling clean home is not a healthy home, because of the chemicals. Do less housework; we will both be happier and you'll have time to do better things." The husband will not believe his wife when she says "Diamonds are kind of nice but I like my security better. Pay off the mortgage first and worry about frills later, and we will both be happier."

Normally when an advertisement shows you something that you're not sure about, you would feel better with the opinion of someone whose intelligence you trust.

You: "I dunno Pat, d'you think that Raid Yard Gard will really kill all mosquitos in a two-mile radius, and then continue to kill them for up to six hours?"
Pat: "Sounds like a lie to me."

But if the Raid people can get you to distrust Pat by convincing you that Pat has different priorities:

"Studies have shown that people named Pat have no concern about West Nile virus, and die in droves for their stupidity. People like You, on the other hand know about the terrible dangers of West Nile virus, and that it could potentially kill millions of people every year. So, who are you gonna trust, Raid? Or some loser named Pat who wants to see you dead?"

Then they have removed Pat from authority in this context, and you only have the Raid people left. Do you believe Raid now? Maybe not. But even if you don't buy their Yard Gard, by not asking Pat his/her opinion you've may already have accepted the division.

By striving to create these divisions all the time, the advertiser is trying to ensure that whenever they present you with information, there is no one that you can go to for help with analyzing it. The advertiser doesn't have to worry about other advertisers blocking out their information, because information is only blocked from going across, not down.

One of the reasons that this technique is successful is that your competitors actually make more business for you; If you are Pepsi, Coke may be trying to get your market share away from you, but at the same time they are making more for you by advertising. The number of cola drinkers will increase regardless, which is good for both of you. By following this "disciple" model of the customer, you can ensure a greater degree of consumer loyalty by promoting a lesser degree of education.

The corollary effects of the lesser degree of education may hurt us all in the long run... but if we're too stupid to care, then no one will know...

Xev

01-29-04, 10:31 PM

BlueHead:

I believe that it can easily be done without intention, but may be done deliberately by a skilled organization. I'll try to explain, although I know this isn't clear (that is, it's a matter of degree to some extent).

Can be done deliberately...and can you point to an example of this being done deliberately?
It amuses me that even the most adept at manipulating humans don't seem to know exactly what they are doing. As if it was something done without thinking. Even a genius like Goebbels doesn't give much indication that he used a method. He applied his observations - but more than that, it came naturally.

Greatest degree I have yet to find words to describe: As a support to the previous kind of manipulation, a new technique has begun to be used deliberately, although I'm sure it existed before. A commercial will cast two people, a wife and husband for instance, as opposing sides in a neverending war of natures that cannot be won by either side. By attempting to drive a wedge between people who would normally communicate freely, the advertiser can restrict the viewers to the kind of self-education listed above. That is, they hope that the wife will not listen her husband when he says "These commercials make people psychotic about dirt in their homes. A sparkling clean home is not a healthy home, because of the chemicals. Do less housework; we will both be happier and you'll have time to do better things." The husband will not believe his wife when she says "Diamonds are kind of nice but I like my security better. Pay off the mortgage first and worry about frills later, and we will both be happier."

If people were smart enough to have those sorts of conversations.
It's an interesting observation. Advertising fosters competition - or taps into the competitive side of human nature. You buy the product, you best the other, whether it be the neighbors who are in awe of your car, your buddies who are in awe of the models you attract by drinking Budweiser (eww) or your husband who is just stunned by the clean house.
It taps into, but does it foster? I'd say yes, television seems to be a profound medium for influencing peoples ideas of reality.

On the other hand, the ties of kinship are lessened in television reality, but the ties between people otherwise opponents are strengthened. Racism doesn't exist, sexism doesn't exist, class is irrelevent and only shows that some people have more - but the have-nots do great and are just about to move up into the ranks of the haves!

Interestingly, as intimate ties between individuals lessen, distinctions of race and class are no longer as relevent (distinctions of gender must be relevent, they sell too well) as they were. A couple might split over monetary issues but two strangers are no longer concerned about the other's race.

The corollary effects of the lesser degree of education may hurt us all in the long run... but if we're too stupid to care, then no one will know...

Well frankly I'm just waiting for the return of the great Hobbesean "war of all against all" so that the world can be remade.

BigBlueHead

01-30-04, 08:12 AM

I'll concede that the method is never exact - but...

and can you point to an example of this being done deliberately?

I'll try... it's gonna be circumstantial, of course, but here goes.

Disney tries to create an ideological division between parents and their children. It is too prevalent and obvious to be unintentional. It shows up both in their movies and advertising.
Examples:

Monsters Inc. - All children are terrorized by monsters coming out of their closets, which are real in the context of the movie. At some point, the monsters stop coming out of their closets, presumably when they get too old. Eventually, they grow up and get married and have children of their own. When their children are terrorized by the same monsters, the parents call them liars.
Message: Your parents will never believe you about some things, even if they implicitly know that you are right, because they have successfully deluded themselves about the real nature of the world.

The Little Mermaid: Ariel is a 15 year old mermaid who collects human artifacts. Her father believes that humans are dangerous, and in one spectacularly violent scene he uses his magic powers to smash and destroy her entire collection.
Message: Don't piss daddy off because he may murder the whole family and then burn down the house.

Treasure Planet: The main character's father abandoned him and his mother when he was young. His life becomes a series of desperate, criminal cries for attention, until he goes on a trip and finds a new father figure in Long John Silver, a murderous cybernetic pirate who nearly kills all of his friends at various times.
Message: If your father left you, your life's purpose is to find someone or something to replace him.

Bambi/Finding Nemo: Don't look away, because when you look back, your mother could be dead. Trust is meaningless in a violent world where no one can guarantee their own survival, much less yours.

The Great Familial Disappointment Moment: Nearly every recent Disney movie has one of these, the overwrought emotive scene where the young, impressionable one screams "You lied to me! I hate you!" and runs away to sob desperately in the corner. (The most distressing such moment was in 101 Dalmatians 2, where the big "you lied to me" moment came when little whatsisname found out that his big role model on TV was not a real person, but only a character played by an actor. Cruel reality...)
Message: Though there are quite a few examples, the overriding message is that your family is destined to fail you at a crucial moment.

These movie messages form a sort of continuum of distrust of your family, which might have been excusable as an unintentional/emotional attempt to gain support or display the feelings of those in charge. However, there are two things that argue against this (at least, in my opinion).

The first: There is a product sold at the Disney store which looks like a bag with a Bambi (or other famous character) head sewn onto it. However, the bag doesn't open, so it's a little difficult to figure out what it is.
As you handle the thing, you slowly come to the horrible realization of what it's for. It's a security blanket. Disney has taken one of the great universal psychological traumas - seperation anxiety - and used it as a way to advertise. Does mommy abandon you every night? Are you alone in the terrible, shifting darkness? Well, severed Bambi head blanket is always there for you!

The second reason was a commercial that contained as much of a mission statement as I've ever seen for the Disney campaign. It talked about children growing up, and enjoying their childhood while it lasts, and showed many pictures of a man playing with his son at Disneyworld - the happy springtime of their family life. The turning point in the commercial is the Question, which I believe was:
"When you're not there anymore, who's going to hold their hand?"
A human hand is shown reaching across the screen, implicitly that of the son, and it is gripped by the immense gloved pseudopod of a giant sponge Mickey Mouse. The human hand is revealed to be that of the son, now all grown up. (The father is not depicted, so we're not sure if he actually died or is just forgotten by history. They don't visit his grave or anything.)

They don't run this commercial anymore, I don't think, but it was as much as saying that Disney's purpose was to replace the parents in every family as the "entity to look up to for love and guidance". This could not have been unintentional, it was like a bald statement of their desire to own everything. When viewed in this light, the other "coincidental" messages of the movies start to seem a lot like a coordinated campaign to drive parents and children apart so that Disney can install themselves as replacement parents.

So far this is the best example I have found.

BigBlueHead

01-30-04, 08:29 AM

On the other hand, the ties of kinship are lessened in television reality, but the ties between people otherwise opponents are strengthened. Racism doesn't exist, sexism doesn't exist, class is irrelevent and only shows that some people have more - but the have-nots do great and are just about to move up into the ranks of the haves!

Interestingly, as intimate ties between individuals lessen, distinctions of race and class are no longer as relevent (distinctions of gender must be relevent, they sell too well) as they were. A couple might split over monetary issues but two strangers are no longer concerned about the other's race.

I entirely agree. Once communication between individuals has been sabotaged, the value of the individual can be played up immensely - presumably this helps promote higher spending.

1) "Be yourself" advertising that shows "you" drinking Coke or using some other such product - promoting an image of individual power that nonetheless states that everyone buys the product.
2) "You deserve better" commercials that, no matter what their actual sales pitch, always seem to involve fat, old, balding loser men who are married to twenty-three year old retired models and have two or three kids that look exactly like their father.
Recently there's one for women as well, which is less common - that McDonalds commercial with the ballet practice, where all the women are hiding behind the one-way mirror watching their kids.

Aside: First of all, the idea of using a one-way mirror in a dance studio makes my skin crawl to begin with. Imagine if, at the age of sixteen, you found out that the locket your parents gave you when you were seven had a hidden camera in it...
Second, the "mommies" all begin to leer at some ballet guy behind another one-way mirror, the guy that the soundtrack describes as being "on the menu". The only way that commercial would seem right to me is if the guy woke up screaming at the end of it. Eeeenyway.

3) The "come together" commercials. I believe there was actually a Telus commercial which used the (Beatles?) song "Come together"... promoting one-ness in the purchase of a product. Kind of the same as #1, kind of different.

Haven't read any Hobbes, not even Leviathan, so I can't say much of the Great Remaking you describe. Usually, we get Marxist Dialectic Collision or whatever it's called, like when they finally decided banner ads didn't work and a million sites went off the net; big change small context.

Xev

01-30-04, 09:01 AM

BlueHead:

Does mommy abandon you every night? Are you alone in the terrible, shifting darkness? Well, severed Bambi head blanket is always there for you!

*Smiles*
If only Soren Kierkegaard had a severed Bambi head blanket.

Excellent examples. I've focused on analzying things aimed at the needs and fears of adults, but children are most vulnerable to that sort of thing - being most needy, fearful and gullible.
Disney has become a representation of childhood by manipulating those fears and needs - quite consciously.

I entirely agree. Once communication between individuals has been sabotaged, the value of the individual can be played up immensely - presumably this helps promote higher spending.

Precisely.
Now, I have nothing against egotism - but consumer individualism is not individualism at all.
Not only does that communication foster a focus on individual spending, it allows for greater fears to be played into. Take gender -

The "war of the sexes" is a often used cultural cliche. You mentioned the married couple, of course such communication issues would be solved by the couple's reaching for some book on 'how to communicate'. The notion is that the Other's gender is so inherently different from yours that it takes all manner of artiface to form a relationship with him or her.

The fear of not reproducing is primal and strongest, second perhaps only to death. The anxiety is heightened by the constant message that - well, the other is completely alien. Read women's magazines and you have a plethora of tips on 'how guys think' 'what guys like' 'what does he really mean when he says X' and the same goes for men's magazines - although of course the focus is on sex rather than relationships. One needs a plethora of goods and skills - for women it's cosmetics, clothing and various fitness regimens, as well as learning how to properly act. For men the items are more big ticket - car, house/apartment, whatever high end luxury is fashionable.

Anxiety sells incredibly well.

3) The "come together" commercials. I believe there was actually a Telus commercial which used the (Beatles?) song "Come together"... promoting one-ness in the purchase of a product. Kind of the same as #1, kind of different.

Bingo. The white man and the black man find a common ground over burgers. Television forms ideology now.

Haven't read any Hobbes, not even Leviathan, so I can't say much of the Great Remaking you describe. Usually, we get Marxist Dialectic Collision or whatever it's called, like when they finally decided banner ads didn't work and a million sites went off the net; big change small context.

Ah, the great remaking is nothing he destroyed. Hobbes argues that without a strong government man is condemned to constantly war against himself.
I don't have a good grasp of Marx - just Capital.

BigBlueHead

01-30-04, 09:22 AM

Disney is a personal arch-enemy of mine, if our relationship could really be described that way.

(After all, they don't really know I exist, and my "attacks" on them usually only amount to my stinging rhetoric and watching their movies for free on the department store cinema. Standing room only, but you can't beat the price.)

It's actually getting difficult to get baby stuff (crib gear, baby clothes, mobiles) that doesn't have Winnie the guldarned Pooh on it... I looked for a long time, and the only decent mobile I found that wasn't Disney was Noah's Ark instead, the trademark of a different corporation.

Now, if a kid goes through their entire life with Winnie the Pooh glasses on, so that Winnie the Pooh is superimposed on their entire perceptual experience all the time, what kind of person comes out at the end? Do they become a wretchedly shambling consumer zombie? Or do they rise above it and reach a higher state of being? I'm worried, because I used to consider Sesame Street to be an educational counterbalance against stupidity, but it's moved unstoppably over to the stupid side of the balance...

I'm entirely unsure what to do about all this, which is why I keep talking and not doing anything.

EDIT: Marx is more like a graven idol than a philosopher these days... the Marxists like to touch his head for luck every morning, but I don't think they pay too much attention to him anymore. Poor dead Karl (like my History prof said) is probably revolving in his grave listening to me. Anyway, the Dialectical Materialist theory of social development, in short, is where the Thesis (accepted idea) and the Antithesis (new, non-accepted idea) wrestle in the mud until they achieve Synthesis (new, combined idea which accounts for both viewpoints).

Xev

01-30-04, 10:00 AM

BigBlue:

Disney is a personal arch-enemy of mine, if our relationship could really be described that way.

*Chuckles*
Hail and kill, brave warrior.

It's actually getting difficult to get baby stuff (crib gear, baby clothes, mobiles) that doesn't have Winnie the guldarned Pooh on it... I looked for a long time, and the only decent mobile I found that wasn't Disney was Noah's Ark instead, the trademark of a different corporation.

You have kids?
None of my business.
Anyways yeah, I don't see why they would bother merchendising (why parents would buy) expensive clothes for babies or kids. They're going to puke all over them or stain them - and if they don't, they'll outgrow them.

Now, if a kid goes through their entire life with Winnie the Pooh glasses on, so that Winnie the Pooh is superimposed on their entire perceptual experience all the time, what kind of person comes out at the end? Do they become a wretchedly shambling consumer zombie? Or do they rise above it and reach a higher state of being? I'm worried, because I used to consider Sesame Street to be an educational counterbalance against stupidity, but it's moved unstoppably over to the stupid side of the balance...

Believe it or not, I spent the first eight or so years of my life without a television. I have no memories of t.v from that period besides the times my mother would take me along when she cleaned houses and I could watch 'Sesame Street'. As consequence, I taught myself to read early. Which really explains why I'm so weird, so maybe it's not such a good thing. :)
Really, the only reason entertainment is so geared towards children is because parents who work find it such an easy diversion for them. Gives industry an even greater stranglehold on their minds. And of course, rising cost of living forces both parents to work in order to fuel the machine.

I'm entirely unsure what to do about all this, which is why I keep talking and not doing anything.

What is there to do?
When I was younger I used to have all manner of bold solutions, which I realized would fail because people are stupid.
You have to have some faith in your species - otherwise, what else is there for you? But people are stupid and apathetic.
Eventually I found Nietzsche, who really helped me free myself from a lot of that sense of purpose but still - my personality is such that I need action and heroism. I've focused on myself, and in the end that's the best you can do - focus on yourself and let the rest go to hell if it so desires.
You can also communicate with others who are able to understand, if you have kids you can do the most important thing for them - raise them so they're not consumer robots and are healthy egotists.
*Shrugs*
But if you hear on the news that someone has vandalized the Time-Warner headquarters, don't point anyone my way.

EDIT: Marx is more like a graven idol than a philosopher these days... the Marxists like to touch his head for luck every morning, but I don't think they pay too much attention to him anymore.

Having him become sort of an icon for academics rather ruined him for me. He seemed to have many good ideas, but I doubt communism is possible nowadays.

BigBlueHead

01-30-04, 10:22 AM

It's not Karl's fault... the public loves any academic who looks like a mad prophet, and he had that beard, he was destined for mainstreaming and the subsequent dissipation of his ideas.

Hairstyle seems to be one of the most valuable factors in being an influental academic, which helps to explain Einstein's many avuncular portraits that wallpapered parts of my school.

As for communism... the economic failure of communism was not a demonstration of a failure of concept, but as far as I'm concerned, the lack of the necessary unified vision was a failure of concept. This was demonstrated more by the prevalence of organized crime in the USSR than its economic troubles. In any case, Marx wanted a form of communism that would somehow come about by mutual assent and then regulate itself, which is wishful thinking at its most raw.

Xev

01-30-04, 09:00 PM

Good one BlueHead, now all the adverts on top of the screen are for Winnie the Pooh.

I don't think the USSR demonstrated the failure of communism as an economic system, but rather the - problems - involved in its implementation.

gendanken

01-31-04, 05:09 PM

Xev:

Gendanken, I know how to conceal myself. What I did made me vile - I smiled a lot and tried to be likable. When I snapped out of that I released my aggression like a fury, like I was trying to prove something to myself. Now that's spent, and I'm wondering if I even care about concealment.

I did not think for a second that you didn't know how. Its the simplest thing in the world to know. Didn't I tell you the easiest answer was ugly? Sneer and hide the pathos writhing inside with a flip of the hair and a dirty joke- easy. Look how ugly you were. The real method is impossible.

I'm about 3 days away from a birthday and I'll be spending that time trembling like a little philosopher. Joy. I look back and see one almost like you- hiding a blossoming identity for fear of being labeled out as eccentric, then lashing out with the full blow of the fire inside. I realize the mistake, I come here and work up a Camelotic ideal of a roundtable where only the noble can sit and prattle. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Then here I am wanting to run or cut off my limbic system. I want to single out that mechanism that simply insists on company, ambush it and put it in a noose. This is the impossibiilty- look at me, I'm sitting here writing this to you, there's a confused boy chewing my ear off and Bigblue has just made me laugh.

I don't have to do any of this, yet Thoreau and Emerson look simply absurd tilling the soil for the ~love~ of it. They're supposed to be farmers escaping the world at one point but look fucking pathetic not knowing wheat from barley. Ooh. Ahh.

I'm here, why? Simple human engineering. And I'm not buying this eyewash of it being only a matter of sieving the herd for those that "deserve" our company, like with like, birds and feathers. Those are nice, but its a standard harangue from platform charlies (as in charlatans.)

Why taunt? Why ridicule? Why make a point to lessers that they are? Why anything else other than strict loyalty to that supposed roundtable?

Lucysnow:

Too true. As Simone De Beauvoirs admits in The Second Sex a woman's allegiance to her man outweighs any solidarity towards other women.

Totally. Aren't they bleeding annoying? Something I learned with my own mother recently- I'm a woman first, daughter second as soon as puberty hits.

Bigblue:

I like how you've been beating commercialism so righteously down to pulp and I look up to see Winnie the Pooh being advertised because you've just mentioned it. I'm trying but I swear to you....can't stop laughing.

Xev

01-31-04, 06:10 PM

gendanken:

Its the simplest thing in the world to know. Didn't I tell you the easiest answer was ugly? Sneer and hide the pathos writhing inside with a flip of the hair and a dirty joke- easy. Look how ugly you were. The real method is impossible.

What would be the real method?

I'm about 3 days away from a birthday and I'll be spending that time trembing like a little philosopher. Joy. I look back and see one almost like you- hiding a blossoming identity for fear of being labeled out as eccentric, then lashing out with the full blow of the fire inside. I realize the mistake, I come here and work up a Camelotic ideal of a roundtable where only the noble can sit and prattle. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Would work for five minutes before Guinevere was barraged with requests for "cyber". The only way something like that could happen is if one made a conscious effort to gather the noble into one place. You know in Plato's dialogs where they lounge about discussing whether the thing that is is a representation of an essential thing being revealed as a thing? 'Course Plato had to make his characters out of fiction.
Maybe - one in a hundred - people is astute enough to think like that. How can you organize them?
Which is why the world is so fucked. The one is surrounded by a hundred who dilute and corrupt their thought.

Then here I am wanting to run or cut off my limbic system. I want to single out that mechanism that simply insists on company, ambush it and put it in a noose. This is the impossibiilty- look at me, I'm sitting here writing this to you, there's a confused boy chewing my ear off and Bigblue has just made me laugh.

Human nature.
Not that you can't cut that off - I've done it - but you'll keep feeling it again and again every time someone sticks their head up and looks like a real human. Just a matter of degree.

I don't have to do any of this, yet Thoreau and Emerson look simply absurd tilling the soil for the ~love~ of it. They're supposed to be farmers escaping the world at one point but look fucking pathetic not knowing wheat from barley. Ooh. Ahh.

You know Thoreau had his mom visiting weekly with food that she'd cooked? He didn't do shit, just talked about self-reliance.

I'm here, why? Simple human engineering. And I'm not buying this eyewash of it being only a matter of sieving the herd for those that "deserve" our company, like with like, birds and feathers. Those are nice, but its a standard harangue from platform charlies (as in charlatans.)

I'm talking about finding the one in a hundred for the times you need to fuck, talk or share. And don't tell me you don't feel that need or desire.

Why taunt? Why ridicule? Why make a point to lessers that they are? Why anything else other than strict loyalty to that supposed roundtable?

Because I'm a sadist.
Albeit an incredibly incompetent one.

guthrie

02-01-04, 05:19 PM

Welcome to humanity. Confusing, isnt it?
I lack the ability to verbalise the way you lot do, (although i write some SF stories i think are good) but its interesting watching you all go through similar things to myself.
Then ill mention that im icq ing my girlfriend who is also one of my best friends. Lucky me eh?

BigBlueHead

02-02-04, 08:15 AM

Good one BlueHead, now all the adverts on top of the screen are for Winnie the Pooh.

I like how you've been beating commercialism so righteously down to pulp and I look up to see Winnie the Pooh being advertised because you've just mentioned it.

Dammit! Now you see why they're my arch enemy... I could dress up in a Mickey Mouse suit and run around killing people with an axe, and it would still be advertising. That's why I don't make any pretense to changing the media - that battle is already lost.

So what do you do when every other person in the world is a Disney zombie? Go to Star Trek conventions? Start a tuba club?

Generally any thing you have "in common" with another person does not encompass enough of their experience to mean that you'll identify with them in any other way.

For instance, a lot of people like Dune, by Frank Herbert. But then, they also like "Frank Herbert's Dune", the TV miniseries, on the basis that it is THE SAME as the book, even though Dune is about political intrigue and prescience, and the TV miniseries is about hats, stick-beating, and some kind of Harkonnen three stooges act.

I find them to be different, others find them to be the same. This, for me, is like saying "I find them to be orange, while others find them to be green." Of course, I don't define my experience in terms of Dune, or Winnie the Pooh for that matter, but when it turns out that another person is not seeing the same world I'm seeing, I usually abandon the finer points of philosophy in our conversation, and work on simpler things, like whether that cloud looks like a piggy or not.

(Is cloud shape recognition a good indicator of similar world-view? Probably not.)

To date, all that I've found is that you can find a slightly better class of people at post-secondary educational institutions... it's no guarantee of quality, but the real hamsters of the world usually can't handle higher education and run off to work at Wendy's. Then you don't have to sift quite as much. Of course, I hear that if you spend too much time at universities you end up radioactive, or get caught in a supernova.

BigBlueHead

02-02-04, 08:16 AM

Because I'm a sadist.
Albeit an incredibly incompetent one.

Incompetent... sadist.

"What, you liked that? Ew, now I feel dirty."

WANDERER

02-02-04, 08:49 AM

Ah, how to connect and still maintain individuality, how much to give up to placate natures need but still keep enough to remain dignified and self-reliant?
A balancing act.
The dilemma for the heightened human condition: Wanting to participate and belong to something other than self but requiring it to be noble enough and worthy enough of our commitment and loyalty; wanting to share and become dependant so that the burden of existence is shared but requiring it to be loyal, understanding, forgiving and special so that by the sheer relation we become so as well and we open up to the multitude of possibilities with little fear and anxiety.
The alternative?
Total isolation and a life lived in solitary confinement with only imaginary realities to keep the intellect occupied.
But what of the body; that demanding hungry beast of need?
Can we decapitate ourselves and survive, would we want to if we could, would we experience the totality of it then?
So many dimensions and so little time and energy. The risk of being spread out too thin an overarching threat because it results in fragility.
But to keep thickness means to be inflexible and impenetrable.
In the end the risk must be taken or life becomes a predictable cage of stagnation.

BigBlueHead

02-03-04, 09:15 AM

Ehhhh... maybe, Wanderer, but that's not what I was saying. I was saying:

Communication of complex concepts with others is almost impossible. That's what the "Shape of Language" thread was about; there are walls between people, even those who think of themselves as friends of one another, and picking all the way through them seems to take years even if the effort is constant.

Membership for its own sake is sold by the media because it supports marketing, especially when distrust is fostered between all individuals; although it may cause social problems in the long run, those who sell products to you are most successful when they are the only source of information that you have.

My point isn't really about the interplay of the need for solitude and the need for membership... it's more about who promotes and controls your interactions with other people, and why.

gendanken

02-03-04, 08:37 PM

Guthrie:

Then ill mention that im icq ing my girlfriend who is also one of my best friends. Lucky me eh?

Yes, I envy those subproletarian genes in your little body that has you labeling nobodies so freely- "boyfriends, girlfriends and baby's daddies". I can picture you all munching on government cheese.

Never fuck with gendanken on her birthday.

Xev:

I'm talking about finding the one in a hundred for the times you need to fuck, talk or share. And don't tell me you don't feel that need or desire.

I won't dare it.

Some gendanken for you:

" Oh fiery loins that would a mind turn its tap and shower you out with reason"

-yours truly.

What would be the real method?

Squashing the amygdala or picking it out with a chainsaw.

Kidding.

I'm in a foul mood (birthday...meh), but let's see here: that place you've said you've hit before from where you bounced back again - you just gave me another reason to be fouler and ill-mannered today. That, to me, was the real answer: walk away as you would a house on fire, but use it for its warmth without the neigborhood knowing. Yet I hear you've tried it, and if you buckled than I'm sitting here singing a fruity song straight from my anus. Red herring.

But hell- the neighborhood simply insists on knowing how your day was, what you were up to, what you've been reading, why the moodswings and have you seen Janet's boob?Floop floop floop- every encounter sucking the life out of you and leaving you less than the person you were that morning. Its not hiding-which folks are quick to tell you its this that you're doing.
Nor fleeing
Nor denial at best which are those bandaid terms you slap on so casually.

Its protecting some thing inside you've never seen which bloody enrages you, I swear to you, makes my blood boil to see that that these gossipmongering shits insist on taking from you before you even get to know what it looks like.

I'm getting it tattoed on my forehead, lass: WARNING: MIND.YOUR FUCKING. BUSINESS. GET AWAY FROM ME. STOP TALKING TO ME, I'M RADIOACTIVE. SHOO.

Maybe - one in a hundred - people is astute enough to think like that. How can you organize them?
Which is why the world is so fucked. The one is surrounded by a hundred who dilute and corrupt their thought.
We could always entice them with copies of the "Gay Science" and then shoot all the ones that showed up to meet homosexuals. All the rest should be friendly.

Wanderer.

The dilemma for the heightened human condition: Wanting to participate and belong to something other than self but requiring it to be noble enough and worthy enough of our commitment and loyalty; wanting to share and become dependant so that the burden of existence is shared but requiring it to be loyal, understanding, forgiving and special so that by the sheer relation we become so as well and we open up to the multitude of possibilities with little fear and anxiety.

...................
So many dimensions and so little time and energy. The risk of being spread out too thin an overarching threat because it results in fragility.
But to keep thickness means to be inflexible and impenetrable.
In the end the risk must be taken or life becomes a predictable cage of stagnation.

Mierda.

Think about what some soul in here said would you? All social ties are shackles, no matter with whom and how.

You can share, understand, forgive, appreciate and lay out on furry white carpets reading copies of Tolstoy or one of those essays you've hashed up, but whoever you've chosen to dote on has become your cause, not your partner.. Partner is only the manicured way of labeling what one really does- look for one almost like you and its all fun and games until you're both exactly alike and you bore.

Put a superman in a room with one he thinks he can teach something to and watch the passions burn til they're both so entranced with the thickness of being in each either you'd swear it was puppylove.
But put him in a room with one just like him and the prospect of actually being taught something both ways will have him on the edge of his seat dying to get out of there.

There goes your predictable cage of stagnation, Oh my brother.

WANDERER

02-03-04, 09:14 PM

Think about what some soul in here said would you? All social ties are shackles, no matter with whom and how.
Shackles or life-preservers, depending on how you choose to interpret them.
Being socially dependant is ingrained in your genes, deny that and you deny part of yourself.
But it is true all relationships demand a sacrifice of self.
The one possessing superfluous self has no problem giving of it, the one that has little of it is diminished with every part lost.

You can share, understand, forgive, appreciate and lay out on furry white carpets reading copies of Tolstoy or one of those essays you've hashed up, but whoever you've chosen to dote on has become your cause, not your partner.. Partner is only the manicured way of labeling what one really does- look for one almost like you and its all fun and games until you're both exactly alike and you bore.
Yes and look for nothing and that's what you will find.
So you�ve given up then. Unfortunate.
But how long can you blame the world for your own imperfections?
And if you bore then you look elsewhere or you look deeper.
Being with yourself can lead to boredom as well.
Being with another that is just like you is a good alternative to being alone because then the boredom is shared.

Put a superman in a room with one he thinks he can teach something to and watch the passions burn til they're both so entranced with the thickness of being in each either you'd swear it was puppylove.
But put him in a room with one just like him and the prospect of actually being taught something both ways will have him on the edge of his seat dying to get out of there.
That's why there are only 'supermen' and no 'superwomen'.

Hastein

02-03-04, 10:07 PM

Think about what some soul in here said would you? All social ties are shackles, no matter with whom and how.

Excessive individualism produces some rather disturbing ideals these days. Early man lived and died by the outcome of his collective, where the romantic modern man beleives he can live free of everything. Entertaining.

gendanken

02-03-04, 10:11 PM

Wanderer:

Shackles or life-preservers, depending on how you choose to interpret them.
Being socially dependant is ingrained in your genes, deny that and you deny part of yourself.

And that will be the last thing you'll find me in, compadre: denial.

Whisper in my ear that I have 3 months to live and then in the other remind me there are naughty pics of me floating around somewhere in danger of being discovered. My impulse: track the shit down and burn it.

What does it matter if gendanken won't be around anymore? But look at the fancy monkey I am, you are, they are running around like a lunatic trying to preserve a reputation even after death. I never said it was only an abstract yarn.

But how long can you blame the world for your own imperfections?
And if you bore then you look elsewhere or you look deeper.
Being with yourself can lead to boredom as well.
Being with another that is just like you is a good alternative to being alone because then the boredom is shared.

Never assume I haven't blamed myself first. Eaten myself alive first.

And its the same with you as it is with me, ami de cour: Indifference is your gallows.

Not boredom.

The one possessing superfluous self has no problem giving of it, the one that has little of it is diminished with every part lost.

And you have all the charm of a toreador in pink tights who's basing all his extravagence on his coquettries with a bull he calls Bob.

Lastly:

That's why there are only 'supermen' and no 'superwomen'.
No.Fucking.Shit.

Put the pastiest little shit in a uniform and watch him grab Germany. Mount a balding pygmy on horse and France rolls over and gives herself to him. But
put her in that same uniform belching the same fucking programme and she's a sexy coquette with brains. Happy muse. Fun and tits.

What makes you think I don't know this?

**EDIT

cour, not cort

Xev

02-03-04, 11:24 PM

gendanken:
Happy fucking birthday.
I spent the my twentieth wanting to slit my wrists and die (after a glorious gun battle with the cops after I'd demolished lots of things).

I'm in a foul mood (birthday...meh), but let's see here: that place you've said you've hit before from where you bounced back again - you just gave me another reason to be fouler and ill-mannered today. That, to me, was the real answer: walk away as you would a house on fire, but use it for its warmth without the neigborhood knowing. Yet I hear you've tried it, and if you buckled than I'm sitting here singing a fruity song straight from my anus. Red herring.

Yeah but you'll still end up bouncing off people, too.
I didn't buckle - lesse, last time I hit it I was about to turn nineteen, I holed up for a couple of days and stopped that need. And then I began realizing that others had their benefits.
You don't stop being human. You maybe can break their domination by learning not to care about them, but there's still that fuzzy feeling when you sit around with friends who maybe aren't of your calibur, but hell they're good for being around.

But hell- the neighborhood simply insists on knowing how your day was, what you were up to, what you've been reading, why the moodswings and have you seen Janet's boob?Floop floop floop- every encounter sucking the life out of you and leaving you less than the person you were that morning. Its not hiding-which folks are quick to tell you its this that you're doing.
Nor fleeing
Nor denial at best which are those bandaid terms you slap on so casually.

Isolate.
Isolate, isolate isolate.
I get the feeling we'd agree if I said this right -
I admit there's the coziness of being with the others. There's the time it gets on your fucking nerves. The best solution I've found is to find a few friends who know when to leave you the fuck alone.
Anyways for me it's the people I'm not intimate with, but strangers and coworkers who drive me up the wall.

Its protecting some thing inside you've never seen which bloody enrages you, I swear to you, makes my blood boil to see that that these gossipmongering shits insist on taking from you before you even get to know what it looks like.

Kill them.
Only way - get the hell away as fast as you can and damn the consequences.
Social suicide indeed.

No.Fucking.Shit.

It is fucking shit.

Put the pastiest little shit in a uniform and watch him grab Germany. Mount a balding pygmy on horse and France rolls over and gives herself to him. But
put her in that same uniform belching the same fucking programme and she's a sexy coquette with brains. Happy muse. Fun and tits.

Who made her the coquette, gendanken?
Her or them?
I can smash moron's heads in until I get carpel tunnel and Odin says I'm overdoing it, but to them I'll never be anything but a bad girl or a dominatrix.
Whose fault is that, mine or theirs?
They trivialize your power because you're female - I know it too - the fault is in not seeing that for what it is, more attempts to bring you down so they don't feel like so much less around you.

That's all it is, another little revenge.

Humans are scum, the only refuge is misanthropy.

Wanderer:

That's why there are only 'supermen' and no 'superwomen'.

You managed to not only get it backwords but to fail to see how it applies to you.

gendanken

02-03-04, 11:47 PM

gendanken:
Happy fucking birthday.
Ha!

Keep reminding me and I'll be ripping your hair from the roots.

I spent the my twentieth wanting to slit my wrists and die (after a glorious gun battle with the cops after I'd demolished lots of things).

And I spent it with this fat black woman complaining to me that it just might be gendanken's fault that the place got robbed and not my morbidly obese trailer park boss who can't even take care of his body let alone a fucking business.

Burn those proles.

Yeah but you'll still end up bouncing off people, too.
I didn't buckle - lesse, last time I hit it I was about to turn nineteen, I holed up for a couple of days and stopped that need. And then I began realizing that others had their benefits.
You don't stop being human. You maybe can break their domination by learning not to care about them, but there's still that fuzzy feeling when you sit around with friends who maybe aren't of your calibur, but hell they're good for being around.
Oh, I love and live more passionately than anyone I know. No damn way I'll ever end being human in that sense and what's murderous funny is how they think they're more human than I am.

And as for these friends to 'cozy' up to...don't have any of those yet. Its still down to those you're only seen with Friday nights but I promise you...I'll be kindapping some real ones soon. .

Isolate.
Isolate, isolate isolate.
Hear, hear, and amen...

I get the feeling we'd agree if I said this right -
I admit there's the coziness of being with the others. There's the time it gets on your fucking nerves. The best solution I've found is to find a few friends who know when to leave you the fuck alone.
Anyways for me it's the people I'm not intimate with, but strangers and coworkers who drive me up the wall.
And the cattle around watercoolers....

Who made her the coquette, gendanken?
Her or them?
I can smash moron's heads in until I get carpel tunnel and Odin says I'm overdoing it, but to them I'll never be anything but a bad girl or a dominatrix.
Whose fault is that, mine or theirs?
They trivialize your power because you're female - I know it too - the fault is in not seeing that for what it is, more attempts to bring you down so they don't feel like so much less around you.

That's all it is, another little revenge.

Humans are scum, the only refuge is misanthropy.

Trickle by trickle I'm beginning to thaw but............shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...back to glorious misanthropy.
Kidding.

Of course. Genitals are a misdemeanor- fucking stupid but you get what I'm saying. What better way to feel like the rug on my floor than to see you'll probably get your little games called out on you by that one person, that one teeny tiny person with the lipstick on that's so easy and usual to understimate?

Knowing its a them thing not a me thing is the only thing keeping me sane. Sometimes.

Aaaaaaand...

You managed to not only get it backwords but to fail to see how it applies to you.
To-u-che.

gendanken

02-03-04, 11:49 PM

Hastein:

Excessive individualism produces some rather disturbing ideals these days. Early man lived and died by the outcome of his collective, where the romantic modern man beleives he can live free of everything. Entertaining.

Do you a favor and shoo.

Look, it rhymes.....mind the lines where danken shines, fair swine.

Xev

02-04-04, 12:17 AM

gendanken:

Keep reminding me and I'll be ripping your hair from the roots.

I won't send flowers then.

And I spent it with this fat black woman complaining to me that it just might be gendanken's fault that the place got robbed and not my morbidly obese trailer park boss who can't even take care of his body let alone a fucking business.

Ouch. That - sucks.

Burn those proles.

I do market research, I do surveys for certain public health programs - illiterate fucks with three, four kids screaming in the background as welfare mommy tries to answer the questions in her butchered English.

Kill. Them. All.

Oh, I love and live more passionately than anyone I know. No damn way I'll ever end being human in that sense and what's murderous funny is how they think they're more human than I am.

Snap.
That's the hilarious bit.
Mock sentiment for them and they think they're dealing with Lucrezia Borgia. The ones that don't feel howl the most that you're unfeeling.

You turn and you hiss at them, and the funniest fucking thing is when they take that seriously.

Other hand...
I have the misfortune of having a 'sweet' face and a soft voice, so of course they think they can take advantage of that supposed niceness. The funniest fucking thing is to be mean as hell and watch them react.

And as for these friends to 'cozy' up to...don't have any of those yet. Its still down to those you're only seen with Friday nights but I promise you...I'll be kindapping some real ones soon. .

I've only accumulated a few. Make sure you feed them and keep them happy or they aren't as snuggly - they just try to climb their way to freedom.

And the cattle around watercoolers....

Who think they know what the 'meaning' of the piece is...

Trickle by trickle I'm beginning to thaw but............shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...back to glorious misanthropy.
Kidding.

I hate the - thawing - bit. It's a hell of a lot easier to hate them all.

Of course. Genitals are a misdemeanor- fucking stupid but you get what I'm saying. What better way to feel like the rug on my floor than to see you'll probably get your little games called out on you by that one person, that one teeny tiny person with the lipstick on that's so easy and usual to understimate?

So use it when they underestimate you

Ah shit, you know - who gives a fuck about using it anyway?
You want to get good at manipulating their little heads, because then you'll be free and you can snap them occasionally, but there's the point where it's not worth it.

As for the weaker sex - hey, whatever you may lose is more than made up for the wonderful pleasure in mocking the lot of 'em.

Knowing its a them thing not a me thing is the only thing keeping me sane. Sometimes.

Sane?
What's that?

WANDERER

02-04-04, 06:11 AM

gendanken

Never assume I haven't blamed myself first. Eaten myself alive first.

And its the same with you as it is with me, ami de cort: Indifference is your gallows.

Not boredom.
It�s the indifference that winds up as boredom.
I now feign interest just to keep my mind occupied.
Like watching a Hockey game with those I call my friends.
I could care less who the fuck wins or what so-and-so�s name is but watching them skate around after a little black disc and mostly watching my friends take it so seriously is amusing, so I pretend.
Like watching ants.

And you have all the charm of a toreador in pink tights who's basing all his extravagence on his coquettries with a bull he calls Bob.
'Bob' is my way of rubbing their faces in the shit which they call self; it�s my tool of mockery, it's my mirror...my red cape swirving in the wind. They think they're attacking me when all they hit is air or themselves.
This brand of animal, call it bull, only understands the personal, everything else passes over its tiny horned head, so I keep it as personal as possible. I keep the cape waving to amuse myself.

I prefer blue tights, just to keep my macho persona intact.

Put the pastiest little shit in a uniform and watch him grab Germany. Mount a balding pygmy on horse and France rolls over and gives herself to him. But
put her in that same uniform belching the same fucking programme and she's a sexy coquette with brains. Happy muse. Fun and tits.

What makes you think I don't know this?
Nothing I just love reminding you of it.

And as for these friends to 'cozy' up to...don't have any of those yet. Its still down to those you're only seen with Friday nights but I promise you...I'll be kindapping some real ones soon.
In order to have friends like that you need to be able to swallow your ego for a while and then when it rises up in your throat threatening to choke you, you must be able to run fast into isolation so that you don�t turn those same friends into bitter enemies.

Of course. Genitals are a misdemeanor- fucking stupid but you get what I'm saying. What better way to feel like the rug on my floor than to see you'll probably get your little games called out on you by that one person, that one teeny tiny person with the lipstick on that's so easy and usual to understimate?
I never underestimate beauty or brains, especially when they appear in unison.

To-u-che.
That's supposed to be my line.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY.
What is it now your 300th?

Hastein

Excessive individualism produces some rather disturbing ideals these days. Early man lived and died by the outcome of his collective, where the romantic modern man beleives he can live free of everything. Entertaining.
But where is the balance between excessive individuality and excessive blandness?
I guess the sea of morons is needed to keep the distinct islands isolated from each other.

Xev

Who made her the coquette, gendanken?
Her or them?
I can smash moron's heads in until I get carpel tunnel and Odin says I'm overdoing it, but to them I'll never be anything but a bad girl or a dominatrix.
Whose fault is that, mine or theirs?
Natures?!
Hey I don't make the rules I just describe them and fight them.

You managed to not only get it backwords but to fail to see how it applies to you.
I think my penis got in the way.

BigBlueHead

02-04-04, 08:06 AM

I could care less who the fuck wins or what so-and-so’s name is but watching them skate around after a little black disc and mostly watching my friends take it so seriously is amusing, so I pretend.
Like watching ants.

Sometimes honesty does have a value... some of those who act the moron all their lives do so to protect themselves, which makes it difficult to discern what they're really like.

Next time you're in a group of idiots, and one of them tells a "my girlfriend's such a bitch" joke, instead of pretending to find it funny, try calling them on it. Ask them, "Then why don't you ditch her instead of whining?"

Twelve of the idiots will look all offended and pissy. The other two will look at you like they actually understand because somewhere inside they're not actually idiots, but just covered with convincing replicas, like hermit crabs.

Long ago I worked a couple of manual labour jobs, of the type that will soon all be done by robots. There was another student in this one place... he was going back to school at the end of the summer, and everyone bugged him about it, telling him that he would be happier if he continued lifting boxes for a living. Finally, in response to the constant "why do you want to go back to school?" questions, he answered:
"Because I don't want to be trapped here for the rest of my fucking life."
Everyone else just shrugged their shoulders and stopped bugging him, but there was one lady sitting at a nearby table - I'd talked to her and she seemed like an idiot to me - got this look on her face which I can barely describe. She knew she was in hell. It was the only expression I ever saw her wear other than her habitual bovine indifference.

So why is this important? The trouble is twofold.
First, if you act like an idiot for long enough, it seems you can forget what you used to think. Not everything, but the little things, stuff you inherited from your education without realizing that it was important, and then forgot because it never occurred to you again when you spent all your time pretending to be somebody else.
Second, the real idiots serve (as Xev said) to drive you apart from the other people who have a real contribution to make to your life, especially if you pretend to be like the idiots. If you're convincing enough, you might make the other wise ones think you're a real idiot...

You should give your friends more credit, and if they don't deserve more credit you have no business hanging around them.

Hastein

02-05-04, 03:26 PM

Next time you're in a group of idiots, and one of them tells a "my girlfriend's such a bitch" joke, instead of pretending to find it funny, try calling them on it. Ask them, "Then why don't you ditch her instead of whining?"

Ha. That's so true, never thought of it that way.

gendanken

02-05-04, 06:39 PM

Xev:

Other hand...
I have the misfortune of having a 'sweet' face and a soft voice, so of course they think they can take advantage of that supposed niceness. The funniest fucking thing is to be mean as hell and watch them react.
Tell me about it. I�ll cry you a river- I look nothing like I sound. My mind is a battalion, my words and personality as toxic as risin but folks never see this because in their mind I�m some kind of exotic Tinkerbell. Remember long ago we talked about the looks of others being small murders? That the bourgeois is born from the poor looking at him and the poor born from the same bourgeois looking back? All the other for-itselfs living right next to me turning me back into an object, murdering what I know I am by simply looking at me.

Don�t get me wrong though- I love the recoil as soon as they pick up on the mistake though. Its like a kick in the crotch, yes? Ha. Nothing hurts more than that, I think.

Wanderer:

Nothing I just love reminding you of it.
�Ouch�. Allright, just remember you said this to me once.

Thus Sprach Methuselah:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY.
What is it now your 300th?
Middle aged humor is thrilling.

I�m a healthy, perfectly obnoxious 24 year old now, Wanderer. And you, the dirty old man getting high off the kiddies and the essays he shoves at them, yes?

In case you wonder why I�ve said this to you, �I just love reminding you of it�

I never underestimate beauty or brains, especially when they appear in unison.
Wait until you actually see it. It would make your blood freeze, your loins flare, and your mind so bitter your mouth would betray you.

In order to have friends like that you need to be able to swallow your ego for a while and then when it rises up in your throat threatening to choke you, you must be able to run fast into isolation so that you don�t turn those same friends into bitter enemies.
Don�t think so.

Meeting and keeping them will take spine and lots of it so swallow my ego my ass.
I will agree that eventually I�ll need to put that ego away in order to see theirs and add to this blossoming art between humans, and I�m destined to running away every now and then in order that I should not scare them or myself away. I�m not above this task and the sacrifices involved- in fact I'll welcome every last bit of it but not for those not worth it, and especially not for those that remind me of that ugly part in me I�d like to push out sometimes like old stool.

Its the indifference that winds up as boredom
You misunderstood. Not your indifference- theirs.
And something tells me you took the bullfighting clause as a compliment.

Here, I�ll show you:

'Bob' is my way of rubbing their faces in the shit which they call self; it�s my tool of mockery, it's my mirror...my red cape swirving in the wind. They think they're attacking me when all they hit is air or themselves.
This brand of animal, call it bull, only understands the personal, everything else passes over its tiny horned head, so I keep it as personal as possible. I keep the cape waving to amuse myself.
Bob is also your microphone.

I refuse to believe you don�t also swing your rag around to amuse your audience. Without Bob and the predictable strategies we both know he embraces so well when he�s made uncomfortable, all that�s left is that man all alone down there in that sandy arena that got all dressed up for nothing. He can strut and flex his muscles, play with his rag and scream out his name from his little lungs but his audience grows indifferent- they came to see blood, or at least be reminded of their mortality. A toreador never dresses for himself, never braids his curly ponytail nor picks out the prettiest montera for himself but his audiance, and what an enticing crowd too when there�s women in it.

No bull, no audience. All alone, you don�t exist. And so, indifference is your gallows, remember? That�s the dandy�s lot.

I prefer blue tights, just to keep my macho persona intact.
Blue, pink or pitch black- they�re still those tights we�ve all seen on those macho, macho ballet dancers. That�s got me so hot.

In case you wonder why I�ve said this to you, �I just love reminding you of it�

Natures?!
Hey I don't make the rules I just describe them and fight them.
No, you rub them in. But no sweat, so do I.

Bluehead:

Everyone else just shrugged their shoulders and stopped bugging him, but there was one lady sitting at a nearby table - I'd talked to her and she seemed like an idiot to me - got this look on her face which I can barely describe. She knew she was in hell. It was the only expression I ever saw her wear other than her habitual bovine indifference.

I've seen that same look before also, but my heart melted (meh....*flips hair* whatever). It was on my father's face when I showed him my diploma- he was beaming but inside I knew he was dying because he never finished college. And it's a damn shame- he's almost as bright as I am, despite my chewing him up here and there for even trying to best me, but its fucking sad to think of all he could have been at my age if he did not throw his life away on his kids and his home and his job and all the other modern baggage that robs humanity of meaning. He made his own hell.

Xev

02-05-04, 09:20 PM

Wanderer:

Natures?!
Hey I don't make the rules I just describe them and fight them.

To be sure, you fight the ones that you find limiting. Those that don't you don't fight or address.

Nature's? It's only nature's fault in that humans are fools.

gendanken:

Tell me about it. I�ll cry you a river- I look nothing like I sound. My mind is a battalion, my words and personality as toxic as risin but folks never see this because in their mind I�m some kind of exotic Tinkerbell. Remember long ago we talked about the looks of others being small murders? That the bourgeois is born from the poor looking at him and the poor born from the same bourgeois looking back? All the other for-itselfs living right next to me turning me back into an object, murdering what I know I am by simply looking at me.

Fucking Sartre.
Funny as hell - I've managed the fourth state, hatred. Objectification in the eyes of the Other can't hurt you there. But times, it pisses one the hell off. You know? It's not even that they try to fuck with you, it's that they have the gall to think you're one of them.
And once that idea is in their head, there's no way to remove it without hollowpoints.

Don�t get me wrong though- I love the recoil as soon as they pick up on the mistake though. Its like a kick in the crotch, yes? Ha. Nothing hurts more than that, I think.

So what do you think of Janet Jackson's tit?

gendanken

02-05-04, 09:38 PM

Xev:

So what do you think of Janet Jackson's tit?

Ha!

Shut up.

Xev

02-05-04, 09:52 PM

Suffer. I've heard about nothing but Janet Jackson's tit today:

"Did you see the game?"
"Did you see the halftime show?"
"Did you see what happened?"
"Did you hear about Janet Jackson's semi-exposed tit?"

Finally "I only watch hardcore sadomasochistic porn and the History Channel"

And people wonder why I'm weird.

gendanken

02-05-04, 10:01 PM

Xev:

Finally "I only watch hardcore sadomasochistic porn and the History Channel"

And people wonder why I'm weird.

!

The pompous sophistries on the Apocrypha on that channel were amusing, but this expert gets on to talk about the most scintillating piece of New Testament I've ever heard where this witch is raining hell on the Virgin's head for having sex before marriage. She sticks her claws up Mary's robe and it bursts into flames for having doubted the holy conception. Merci.

To be sure, you fight the ones that you find limiting. Those that don't you don't fight or address.

I don't think so.

**edit

Piece, not peace

WANDERER

02-06-04, 06:43 AM

gendanken

Middle aged humor is thrilling.

I�m a healthy, perfectly obnoxious 24 year old now, Wanderer. And you, the dirty old man getting high off the kiddies and the essays he shoves at them, yes?

In case you wonder why I�ve said this to you, �I just love reminding you of it�
Middle-aged? I plan to live until 100 so 50 will be my middle-age.
Ok, now I'm old? Imagine being �old� in your thirties, just wait six years and then get back to me.
Youth is a state of mind young one. It is irrelevant unless it becomes relevant. Age is something that matters in schoolyards and cafeterias. Age is how the very young excuse their stupidity and the very old excuse their laziness.
I know teenagers that are old and inflexible and older folks that are young and spry.
Health is my middle name.
But why is your bite so deep?
I might break my �image� and start crying. Imagine my shame then.

Wait until you actually see it. It would make your blood freeze, your loins flare, and your mind so bitter your mouth would betray you.
A few months ago I would have not believed you but now that I have personal experience with your type of woman, I do not doubt it at all.
A ferocious wonderment you must be.
My mind never becomes bitter in the face of beauty, it becomes silent.
But we both know that surfaces only state half truths. If you met me you wouldn�t even know it was me until I had entered the walls and unlocked the gates from the inside.
What did I say about Greeks my dear, in my �Beware of Greeks� thread? We are charming; look at how we dominate western thought.
I grow on people like a fungus and my effects are noticed months after first contact.
Which is as it should be, ego takes time to appreciate another ego.

Meeting and keeping them will take spine and lots of it so swallow my ego my ass.
I will agree that eventually I�ll need to put that ego away in order to see theirs and add to this blossoming art between humans, and I�m destined to running away every now and then in order that I should not scare them or myself away. I�m not above this task and the sacrifices involved- in fact I'll welcome every last bit of it but not for those not worth it, and especially not for those that remind me of that ugly part in me I�d like to push out sometimes like old stool.
Sometimes beauty needs fertile ground and sunny horizons to blossom.
There�s a testing phase where the soil is analyzed.
You wouldn�t want to grow roots in shit, now would you?

The fact that there�s a part of you, you consider �ugly�, and a part you want to deny is a sign of youthful insecurity.
In time you learn to appreciate all parts of you that cannot be altered, because you�ve altered all the parts that can. You learn to suppress them when needed and to harness them and guide them towards fruitful endeavours.

You misunderstood. Not your indifference- theirs.
And something tells me you took the bullfighting clause as a compliment.
I take nothing you say as a compliment. That�s not why you are here and flattery comes like a stranger to your tongue. It�s not your style.
You compliment through more subtle means so that you may retract it later if you change your mind.

Bob is also your microphone.

I refuse to believe you don�t also swing your rag around to amuse your audience. Without Bob and the predictable strategies we both know he embraces so well when he�s made uncomfortable, all that�s left is that man all alone down there in that sandy arena that got all dressed up for nothing. He can strut and flex his muscles, play with his rag and scream out his name from his little lungs but his audience grows indifferent- they came to see blood, or at least be reminded of their mortality. A toreador never dresses for himself, never braids his curly ponytail nor picks out the prettiest montera for himself but his audiance, and what an enticing crowd too when there�s women in it.

No bull, no audience. All alone, you don�t exist. And so, indifference is your gallows, remember? That�s the dandy�s lot.
You sound like you speak from experience.
But isn�t loneliness the lot of every distinctive mind?
A woman wouldn�t understand this, her loneliness, if she is beautiful and fierce like you, is derived from being surrounded by flatterers and posturing dolts that just want to fuck her using the usual methods and being surrounded by those that underestimate her because of her gender or image.

The 'Bob' creation is not my only one, the others just didn't have the same personal affect, that's all. I started 12 threads, only two got bombarded with posts. Guess why.
But where am I alone? Did you not see the 4000 hits and the ongoing obsession with me and my persona? Did you not see how many try to knock me down, how many fighters enter the ring to prove their worth against me?
Do you think that�s what I wanted? Well maybe it's part of it.
I came here seeking intelligence and a deeper connection with people I respected and that understood me, instead I found, like David Mayes, a bunch of children talking about the same old shit searching for intimacy and games. So now I mock them by participating on their level. It's fun.

Not only does indifference not bother me but I prefer it. I freely urge others to ignore me. Inconspicuous observation is clearer, being under-estimated gives me an advantage and I never was one for being the center of attention anyways. Difficult to believe, I know, given the circumstances here.
But if you knew me personally you would see how little attention I try to attract and how little I talk about myself. Despite this I laways get noticed.
Intelligence nor beauty can be hidden for long.

Blue, pink or pitch black- they�re still those tights we�ve all seen on those macho, macho ballet dancers. That�s got me so hot.
I'm indifferent to your temperature.

No, you rub them in. But no sweat, so do I.
Why are you here anyway?
Do you still tell yourself it�s not because of solitude and an inability to fully be taken by the attention of idiots?
Have you tired of putting morons and imbeciles in their place with your ice-cold stare and bitter tongue?
Have you tired of having the worship and respect of inferiors that compliment and bow to you on every opportunity?

BigBlueHead

02-06-04, 11:52 AM

Gendanken: I think there's an especial kind of pain for realizing that you work for pathetic wages every day and watch your co-workers lose bits of their fingers, so that you can go and visit your family in Italy for one week each year. Worst of all was probably her kid, who had just started working there and was apparently yet oblivious to what was wrong.

People sometimes talk about not wanting to sleep because of nightmares. Imagine not wanting to wake up because of them...

Xev

02-06-04, 12:06 PM

gendanken:

The pompous sophistries on the Apocrypha on that channel were amusing, but this expert gets on to talk about the most scintillating piece of New Testament I've ever heard where this witch is raining hell on the Virgin's head for having sex before marriage. She sticks her claws up Mary's robe and it bursts into flames for having doubted the holy conception. Merci.

Sounds like it belongs in a Gorgoroth concert more than in the New Testament. Scrumptious.

I do think so. Very few challenge ideas that they aren't threatened by. If the status quo works for them - bully for the status quo.

BigBlueHead:

I think there's an especial kind of pain for realizing that you work for pathetic wages every day and watch your co-workers lose bits of their fingers, so that you can go and visit your family in Italy for one week each year.

I don't get it - if someone takes a job so that they can afford luxuries, how is it so especially painful that their job sucks syphilitic donkey balls?

BigBlueHead

02-06-04, 12:51 PM

I don't get it - if someone takes a job so that they can afford luxuries, how is it so especially painful that their job sucks syphilitic donkey balls?

Generally because
1) People can't help getting slightly smarter as they get older
2) When she started working, she was as stupid as her kid is now
3) It took her until now to realize the hole she dug for herself
4) Upon seeing the hole she dug, she can also see it's too deep for her to get out of with her limited smarts.

In short, the pain is for realizing you had something after you've already lost it and can't get it back. People usually choose to forget again, if they can manage to.

EDIT: Has dug? So much for the Queen's English...

Mrs.Lucysnow

02-07-04, 01:40 PM

Gendy Quote:And as for these friends to 'cozy' up to...don't have any of those yet. Its still down to those you're only seen with Friday nights but I promise you...I'll be kindapping some real ones soon. .

Xev Quote: I've only accumulated a few. Make sure you feed them and keep them happy or they aren't as snuggly - they just try to climb their way to freedom.

These aren't friends you speak of, they are pets.

gendanken

02-07-04, 04:00 PM

Lucysnow:

These aren't friends you speak of, they are pets.
And didn't you know normal people make good pets? Slow down and read it again: those I have now are gerbils but those I plan kidnapping won't be.

Wanderer:

Youth is a state of mind young one. It is irrelevant unless it becomes relevant. Age is something that matters in schoolyards and cafeterias.
These "irrelevance" eulogies so common among old people mean what when you chose to make age relevant enough to crack a joke about gendanken turning 300?
Or have you forgotten? You�re making a dirty habit of me having to quote you on everything, Wanderer.

Health is my middle name
Wonderful. Timeless is mine.

But why is your bite so deep?
Don�t know if you know, but I don�t nibble.

But enough of this rot because here�s where things get interesting:

A few months ago I would have not believed you but now that I have personal experience with your type of woman, I do not doubt it at all.
A ferocious wonderment you must be.
Classic. Fucking, fucking classic. You know, you just got easier? Who was it that said something about men being salesmen and women their buyers? Penis goes, "I can�t see you but my what a fierce, callous, enticing little minx you must be" and the little vagina coos and giggles at the image of being called as much by a ninny and POOF she�s playing the part he just gave her.

What you don�t know is that I�m a bigger penis than you are, Wanderer. This whole ~analysis~ you have about what goes on between strings of text is just that now that I see the bad cards you play�...strings of text.

But we both know that surfaces only state half truths. If you met me you wouldn�t even know it was me until I had entered the walls and unlocked the gates from the inside.
What did I say about Greeks my dear, in my �Beware of Greeks� thread? We are charming; look at how we dominate western thought.

Yes, but they�re also those bearded bores we read about, remember? They used to haunt the markets and palaestras of Athens doing like Socrates, every last fucking one of them barking at people with their sophistries. From hence came The Sophists, yes?
You can go on and on about your warhorse undoing the latch from the inside but I always imagine you trying to pick the lock with a sermon. Singing the walls down and demanding the door open with some cheap gospels when all that would do is a simple push with your hand. You�re like Amphion playing on his fiddle.

And by the way- Latins have Greeks for breakfast.

There�s a testing phase where the soil is analyzed.
You wouldn�t want to grow roots in shit, now would you?

Uhm. Duh?

The fact that there�s a part of you, you consider �ugly�, and a part you want to deny is a sign of youthful insecurity.

And the fact that you don�t realize who I�m talking about is a philosophical one.

Explanation: look right there, in that seat of yours. That "ugly part" in me is sitting right there in your seat and its got your shoes on. There are two kinds of philosophers in this world and both can pick out likes and unlikes- I know there�s a vile, sourly aging (insert Wanderer�s real name here) writhing inside of me that I keep tied up with ribbons. I keep his noise down with the sounds of warrior poets and nightengales- beauty.
So keep talking about "appreciating those parts that can�t be altered" and then kindly shove it up your bloody colon, I�m no schoolgirl. I�ve accepted, modified, tweaked and tied him up to use later for those that try crossing me.

Do I just sit there ~appreciating~ my daggers or do I use them briefly and put them away again?

You sound like you speak from experience.
But isn�t loneliness the lot of every distinctive mind?

All that strive for nobility know this.

A woman wouldn�t understand this, her loneliness, if she is beautiful and fierce like you, is derived from being surrounded by flatterers and posturing dolts that just want to fuck her using the usual methods and being surrounded by those that underestimate her because of her gender or image.

Call me beautiful again and you'll be peeing blood, you erectile dysfunctionette.

The 'Bob' creation is not my only one, the others just didn't have the same personal affect, that's all. I started 12 threads, only two got bombarded with posts. Guess why.
But where am I alone? Did you not see the 4000 hits and the ongoing obsession with me and my persona? Did you not see how many try to knock me down, how many fighters enter the ring to prove their worth against me?
Do you think that�s what I wanted? Well maybe it's part of it.

I know this, but do you realize that by "Bob" I mean everything? Somthing tells me you think Bob the bull is only the middle aged puerco slowly melting in his cubicle. Bob is everything, amigo. All those little essays of yours are the fancy rapiers you flash to your audiance in your flamboyance with Bob.

The antichrist and the overmen were Nietzches's toro.
Rebellion was Camus toro.
Nausea and the comedy of virtues were Sartre's toro.
Virtue was Socrates' toro.
Moral and ethics were Plato's and Chesterfield's toro.

The only difference is that people are still coming to see their show long after these men have died but you'll be rotting with maggots and soon forgotten by every last one of us here if you die today.
Of course in each of their cases, society always won but its natural- society is a powerful opponent and always will be. It has the advantage of mass and age. However, my what true spirits those men were, fucking timeless. Its as if they're standing right next to you sometimes.

Lastly:

Not only does indifference not bother me but I prefer it. I freely urge others to ignore me. Inconspicuous observation is clearer, being under-estimated gives me an advantage and I never was one for being the center of attention anyways. Difficult to believe, I know, given the circumstances here.
But if you knew me personally you would see how little attention I try to attract and how little I talk about myself. Despite this I laways get noticed.
Intelligence nor beauty can be hidden for long.

Here's what I wrote once, "dear":

"So what are you but the story you make up for others? I doubt there is anyone content with merely writing, thinking, composing, or singing for themselves without the secret hope locked away somewhere for that charming happenstance that would accidentally land that book he's writing onto some other's lap, the voice in some other's ear, and the brilliant thought with his signature still fresh on it quietly floated subconcioulsy from his mind into the psyche of an other. All legtimately "by accident".

I highly, highly doubt you prefer indifferece Wanderer. And both beauty and wisdom is easy to bitch about when you have it, in fact its scripted, but you'll be one crybabying little bitch as soon as you lose it.

Bigbluehead:

People sometimes talk about not wanting to sleep because of nightmares. Imagine not wanting to wake up because of them...
Gorgeous.

Xev

02-07-04, 04:45 PM

gendanken:

Call me beautiful again and you'll be peeing blood, you erectile dysfunctionette.

But. that. was. beautiful!

Lucysnow:
That might explain why they keep gnawing their way through the leather restraints, the bastards.

Blue:

In short, the pain is for realizing you had something after you've already lost it and can't get it back. People usually choose to forget again, if they can manage to.

They mortgage their hopes so that they can afford kids, house and minivan - so fucking what? If you're that stupid, rot in the hell you created.

gendanken

02-07-04, 05:04 PM

Xev:

But. that. was. beautiful!

No, dear, this was:

That might explain why they keep gnawing their way through the leather restraints, the bastards.

Muha-ha. I picture a small wide-eyed commune of smiling people too scared to say anything but you know something is wrong because the walls are bloodstained where they tried scracthing their way out. Something about God being a comedian and his audiance too scared to laugh.

We're God. Kidding.

Mrs.Lucysnow

02-07-04, 06:41 PM

Quote:And didn't you know normal people make good pets? Slow down and read it again: those I have now are gerbils but those I plan kidnapping won't be.

Reminds me of the song by Porno For Pyro's:

Children are innocent
A teenager's fucked up in the head
Adults are even more fucked up
And elderlies are like children

Will there be another race
To come along and take over for us?
Maybe martians could do
Better than we've done
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!

My friend says we're like the dinosaurs
Only we are doing ourselves in
Much faster than they
Ever did
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!
We'll make great pets!

Why would you want people like that around you anyway? Surely there are better human specimens to choose from.

Xev

02-07-04, 07:21 PM

gendanken:

Muha-ha. I picture a small wide-eyed commune of smiling people too scared to say anything but you know something is wrong because the walls are bloodstained where they tried scracthing their way out. Something about God being a comedian and his audiance too scared to laugh.

And I see gendanken with a pair of bloody pliers in her hand screaming

"You WILL grasp the complexities of Quinzubro's thought!"

That's it, though.
To achieve the mental cleanliness required to break past bad methods of thought, one must be extremely careful in whom one admits to one's circle. Unclean or simply mediocre minds can be educational to deal with, but camraderie and love are such dangerous forces that the strictest discipline must be observed in their use.
Ultimately, clean thinking requires clean surroundings.

WANDERER

02-07-04, 07:44 PM

gendanken

These "irrelevance" eulogies so common among old people mean what when you chose to make age relevant enough to crack a joke about gendanken turning 300?
Just 24 and already counting days.
You�ll be a wreck by 40.
But is your youth the only thing you have over me or is it also the fact that you posses a vagina and so have grown accustomed to using it as a tool of manipulation that does not require blood for hardening?
Look behind you dear, death is creeping up and beauty is only good for so long before it turns to shriveled emptiness. Then you�ll look next to you, and if there�s someone there you�ll wonder if he was the best that you could get or if there were others you scared away with your make-up and insane mental gyrations.
Do you have what it takes for the later years? Do you have the courage?
You will find this out for yourself.

Don�t know if you know, but I don�t nibble.
Good, nibble on this.
Aged to perfection.....dear.
Some things get better with age and female beauty is not one of them. Male beauty, on the other hand, is something that can be appreciated by those having the right tongue and discirminating taste.

Classic. Fucking, fucking classic. You know, you just got easier? Who was it that said something about men being salesmen and women their buyers? Penis goes, "I can�t see you but my what a fierce, callous, enticing little minx you must be" and the little vagina coos and giggles at the image of being called as much by a ninny and POOF she�s playing the part he just gave her.
Hmmm you sound like someone that needs a spanking.
Tell me, does the fact that others buy into your little �nasty girl�, female intelligencia bit make you believe I do so also?
The day a little girl, like you, intimidates me with her snarling, red- painted nails and supposed fierceness is the day I chop off what�s left of my limp aging member and serve it up to a German cannibal.
Do young boys fear you little girl? Do they gasp at your stare and forked tongue?
No human being scares me any more. I have seen the worst of them.
You aren't it.

What you don�t know is that I�m a bigger penis than you are, Wanderer. This whole ~analysis~ you have about what goes on between strings of text is just that now that I see the bad cards you play�...strings of text.
How nice for you. A vagina and a penis in one?
So a hermaphrodite you are.
I guess fucking yourself must come easy then. You do it so often.

Yes, but they�re also those bearded bores we read about, remember? They used to haunt the markets and palaestras of Athens doing like Socrates, every last fucking one of them barking at people with their sophistries. From hence came The Sophists, yes?
Hey look she's read a book. Good for you.
But we Greeks don't like talking about Socrates, he was our downfall, the black sheep of the family.
As for sophistry, you should know all about that, little one. All that pretended wisdom and viciousness to hide behind, all those pretty little words and clever euphemisms to shoo away prying eyes and needful boys.
But I�m poking little girl, just for the fun of it.
No need only curiousity.
Mankind is my study. What else is there to do?

You can go on and on about your warhorse undoing the latch from the inside but I always imagine you trying to pick the lock with a sermon. Singing the walls down and demanding the door open with some cheap gospels when all that would do is a simple push with your hand. You�re like Amphion playing on his fiddle.
Don�t you like my tune? I know many more and choose songs according to the listener.
My hand is too strong for tender doors like these, I fear bruising them.
I prefer making them want to open by themselves with simple words. It�s a test of my linguistic artistry.
Imagine making an apple fall in your hand with a song. Imagine the power of this.
Everyone has hands and muscles, even if not as big as mine, but to crack shells with verbal talent, now that�s power.
My �gospels� are how I filter out dirt from pure water.

And by the way- Latins have Greeks for breakfast.
Only after Socrates and Jesus have cooked them well, beforehand.
But some of us have escaped the frying pan and are now in the fire.

Explanation: look right there, in that seat of yours. That "ugly part" in me is sitting right there in your seat and its got your shoes on. There are two kinds of philosophers in this world and both can pick out likes and unlikes- I know there�s a vile, sourly aging (insert Wanderer�s real name here) writhing inside of me that I keep tied up with ribbons. I keep his noise down with the sounds of warrior poets and nightengales- beauty.
What you call aged I call experienced.
Reading great deeds in books and sharing vicariously in their honor is different from being there, now isn�t it?
You speak of war when you�ve never survived its horrors.
You speak of fighting when you�ve never been cut or felt the blood pouring out of you.
A warrior needs a place of rest, young one; a place to recuperate and forget the battle for a while. A warrior is forced into battle by honor and nobility and never enters it will soft heart and gay song. Only the inexperienced crave war for wars sake.
But you speak of it with the naivet� of one that has never lost or been defeated.
Time will cure you of this.
But what battles does a young lady indulge in when she walks behind her favorite warriors shield and then speaks of nobility and honor?
A flash of her smile and a peak at her ankles opens doors for her and makes her way smooth and uneventful.
A man must earn his way.
What do you know of manliness? You are barely a woman.

So keep talking about "appreciating those parts that can�t be altered" and then kindly shove it up your bloody colon, I�m no schoolgirl. I�ve accepted, modified, tweaked and tied him up to use later for those that try crossing me.
My �colon� is presently occupied by my head but thanks for that beautiful imagery.
Words so many words.
The fact that you now think you�re done with the tweaking tells me you have more to learn.

Call me beautiful again and you'll be peeing blood, you erectile dysfunctionette.
Hey, call my penis small but don�t dare call it limp.
I�m hurt.
How appropriate for women to never have to prove their libido or potency and to then use the male member as their target practice.

I know this, but do you realize that by "Bob" I mean everything? Somthing tells me you think Bob the bull is only the middle aged puerco slowly melting in his cubicle. Bob is everything, amigo. All those little essays of yours are the fancy rapiers you flash to your audiance in your flamboyance with Bob.
And what have you done lately?
Oh, I see the endless pursuit of knowing how the mind works or what consciousness is, is your chosen distraction.
But even if you could know this, what then?
Consciousness is only important if you know how to apply it even if you know nothing about where it comes from.
Let�s debate free-will until we get bored, while we avoid applying free-will altogether.
Let�s talk forever about the unknowable and forget the knowable.

The antichrist and the overmen were Nietzches's toro.
Rebellion was Camus toro.
Nausea and the comedy of virtues were Sartre's toro.
Virtue was Socrates' toro.
Moral and ethics were Plato's and Chesterfield's toro.
Is this supposed to be a display?
I'm only mildly impressed.
I am more interested in your displays of viciousness and cruelty.
They fascinate me.
Like a Barbie doll with fangs.

The only difference is that people are still coming to see their show long after these men have died but you'll be rotting with maggots and soon forgotten by every last one of us here if you die today.
And here lies the crux of your attack. Your misunderstanding of my motives.
I�m hurt by your forgetfulness.
Next thing you�ll do is write a bad review for my book and destroys my dreams of fame and fortune.
You, on the other hand, will live in infamy in my mind dear. A tender woman pretending she�s a man, a fearful girl searching for a nest to lie in and finally rest.

Of course in each of their cases, society always won but its natural- society is a powerful opponent and always will be. It has the advantage of mass and age. However, my what true spirits those men were, fucking timeless. Its as if they're standing right next to you sometimes.
I choose who stands next to me not you.
You choose corpses and cadavers as your lovers I choose flesh and blood and only use cadavers as sign posts and direction finders.
Do your books feel soft when you cuddle next to them at night, does your significant other recoil at your coolness and indifference or that flash of a sneer?
Poor bastard.

"So what are you but the story you make up for others? I doubt there is anyone content with merely writing, thinking, composing, or singing for themselves without the secret hope locked away somewhere for that charming happenstance that would accidentally land that book he's writing onto some other's lap, the voice in some other's ear, and the brilliant thought with his signature still fresh on it quietly floated subconcioulsy from his mind into the psyche of an other. All legtimately "by accident".
That was beautiful.
What a common mistake to take my song and my singing as proof that I take any of it seriously. Even you are a joke to me in the face of oblivion and nothingness.

I highly, highly doubt you prefer indifferece Wanderer. And both beauty and wisdom is easy to bitch about when you have it, in fact its scripted, but you'll be one crybabying little bitch as soon as you lose it.
Beauty fades wisdom never. It perishes with the mind.
But my beauty is not skin deep, like yours, it lies in my character and my will.

Mrs.Lucysnow

02-07-04, 08:33 PM

Quote:To achieve the mental cleanliness required to break past bad methods of thought, one must be extremely careful in whom one admits to one's circle. Unclean or simply mediocre minds can be educational to deal with, but camraderie and love are such dangerous forces that the strictest discipline must be observed in their use.
Ultimately, clean thinking requires clean surroundings.

You are lucky to recognize this now, it takes most people a very long time to come to this necessary conclusion if they ever reach it at all...especially concerning lovers and life-partners.

gendanken

02-08-04, 07:00 PM

Lucysnow:

Why would you want people like that around you anyway? Surely there are better human specimens to choose from
Damn it, Lucy. Come come now- can't you see its precicely these kind of people I don't want around me? This whole thread is about this.

Xev:

That's it, though.
To achieve the mental cleanliness required to break past bad methods of thought, one must be extremely careful in whom one admits to one's circle. Unclean or simply mediocre minds can be educational to deal with, but camraderie and love are such dangerous forces that the strictest discipline must be observed in their use.
Ultimately, clean thinking requires clean surroundings.
The 'kidnapping' clause was a joke. The ideal is not stupid.

Dangerous indeed. The humble I'd be a vicious maggot to put out only becuase of humility.
The careless egoists I'd be a silly girl to let in becuase they'd crush me and I'd let them.

Only with restraint and discretion can I expose myself- not cheap gossip or fyi's but the things inside never seen before, I'm talking My Self- expose that completely to one I'd fear otherwise, a hard lesson, believe me.

Only an extremophile would do.

Wanderer:

Barbie doll with fangs? Interesting.

�Battlescarred� muneco:

How nice for you. A vagina and a penis in one?
So a hermaphrodite you are.

Thank you. A blooming hermaphrodite�bingo. Its precisely this that makes you easier the more I deal with you, yet you don�t see this.

Observation number one: age only became relevant after you chose to make it so.
Observation number two: sex became an issue only after you chose to throw out a line only lonely, pathetic, perfectly gullible carrion we call women would buy and play into just for you and those watching.

Observation number three: my disillusionment with you is nothing by proxy- you gave it to me, no one else.
Observation number four: there�s more truth in you liking the idea of my being a little girl then there is real truth in me being one. More truth in an ego safely putting another ego away with quick labels than there is in the solace the first ego always employs to tell himself the alarm is a false one.

Observation number five: I don�t care what you look, smell or sound like, the money you have or how old you are- and don�t care if you did of me likewise.

And last observation: you�ll get nowhere and fast with your cute �little girl in need of a spanking� and �young one� looking your nose down where you damn well cannot. We can sit here like two little Bobs playing hopscotch with pedestrian insults and get nowhere- and if that will be the case then this is my last post to you, you syphillized monkey.

Kidding. Now, let us begin:

Look behind you dear, death is creeping up and beauty is only good for so long before it turns to shriveled emptiness. Then you�ll look next to you, and if there�s someone there you�ll wonder if he was the best that you could get or if there were others you scared away with your make-up and insane mental gyrations.
Do you have what it takes for the later years? Do you have the courage?
According to you, I�ve placed all my faith on the superficial.
According to you, I�ve never seen past the pretty nose or the fingernails.
According to you, I actually have fingernails.
Accroding to you, I�m the perfectly canned piece of trash turned out by Revlon each year

Or

the perfectly canned piece of trash turned out by death metal and Rice novels- those goth chicks with fashionable scars on their arms basing all that they are on the puppies and dirty old men drooling all over their hard-rock persona.

Look at you- so full with no room to breathe. What did I say about walking away from a house on fire? What did I say about using it for warmth and nostalgic amusement? What did I say about having to put up with the nosy neighborhood simply insisting on knowing why I�m standing there, prying into business it has no right to? What did I say?

Like you, I hide what I have. Remember the monopoly game? I�m right there next to those slavs watching them twirl the dice in complete ignorance of how foolish they look to me. They�re the burning house � and the �little girl� walks away how? Flashy nails and make up? A Lilith gimmick?

Who said this?

Not only does indifference not bother me but I prefer it. I freely urge others to ignore me. Inconspicuous observation is clearer, being under-estimated gives me an advantage and I never was one for being the center of attention anyways. Difficult to believe, I know, given the circumstances here.
But if you knew me personally you would see how little attention I try to attract and how little I talk about myself. Despite this I laways get noticed.
Intelligence nor beauty can be hidden for long.
Who? Me....or you?

Little do you know, because you too don�t know me personally either. I either hide or ignore my outside and there are periods where you�d swear I was either Amish or homeless.

You think flashy nails and lipstick is going to push away the neighborhood? What�s the matter with you, think I�m actually sitting here thinking nobility comes from calling attention to oneself? In case you didn�t know its worlds harder for a woman to hide herself in all things, and no matter how loud she cried and how big her sword was, how steeped in the complete, innocent faith of her cause or how pressed down her tits were Miss Joan of Arc was probably still sexy.

And that�s what makes it easier to underestimate what you see before you- the superficial you�ve just tried preaching to me about that I damn well know will one day betray me.

Only here, in this world with all the benefits of society and yet not one can I actually see gendanken where everywhere else, my reality as in yours, you find people so quick to pry you open, cut it out and spit on it by assuming.

And you dare ask if I have what it takes for later years. I�m living timelessly, Wanderer.
You�d find my mind in a nursing home as you would a college dorm and a sandbox.

Hmmm you sound like someone that needs a spanking.
Tell me, does the fact that others buy into your little �nasty girl�, female intelligencia bit make you believe I do so also?
The day a little girl, like you, intimidates me with her snarling, red- painted nails and supposed fierceness is the day I chop off what�s left of my limp aging member and serve it up to a German cannibal.

Ask yourself if I care what you buy and don�t buy. Ask if I care that you came down my aisles one day, picked up some merchandise and walked out without purchasing. Ask me if it matters a damn if on my deathbed I realize there was a wandering vulture once that took me for carrion and didn�t like the meat in his mouth.

Vultures, last I heard, aren�t cannibals.

Ask yourself all of that and answer your own questions. Then realize it was you that put out his merchandise- not I.

Some things get better with age and female beauty is not one of them.

Male beauty, on the other hand, is something that can be appreciated by those having the right tongue and discirminating taste
Another obvious for my basket.

You assume I haven�t seen the universe and been saddened by it. Depressed, enraged, enraptured and put off by it- taken a plunge in the cold and learned how to swim. You too are a joke to me in the face of oblivion and nothingness. You could even be my essay in times such as those.

What you call aged I call experienced.
Reading great deeds in books and sharing vicariously in their honor is different from being there, now isn�t it?
You speak of war when you�ve never survived its horrors.
You speak of fighting when you�ve never been cut or felt the blood pouring out of you.
A warrior needs a place of rest, young one; a place to recuperate and forget the battle for a while. A warrior is forced into battle by honor and nobility and never enters it will soft heart and gay song. Only the inexperienced crave war for wars sake.
But you speak of it with the naivet� of one that has never lost or been defeated.
Time will cure you of this.
But what battles does a young lady indulge in when she walks behind her favorite warriors shield and then speaks of nobility and honor?
A flash of her smile and a peak at her ankles opens doors for her and makes her way smooth and uneventful.
A man must earn his way.

What do you know of manliness? You are barely a woman.

So many ideas and images.
So quick to narrow his options.
So quick to grab the world and fit it with shoes Made By Wanderer, t.m.
So quick to harness shadows and try fitting them in his categorical imperatives.

Little does he know I envy his battlefields of experience, envy this idea I have of him building his own home with his hands. Envy his years of living in a world that would let him live it completely, one that doesn�t part in the middle like crowds do for invalids and wheelchairs trying to make it through doorways.

There�s not a scratch on my hand and why? Because in younger years this silly girl was too busy taking the shortcuts put out for those fucking invalids while he was sweating and knowing what it feels like to build things and not buy them, think them and not be taught by them. But in trying she�s robbed of every last luscious piece of experience so easily come to him in this pampered, perfectly spoiled little world we call America.

Yet I�m not even American, I�ve been incredibly poor and grown used to the scraps meant for peasants so eat it- I know both loss and defeat. You�d think all this would have bitchslapped me sooner but I�m glad it did not. My slap is harder and I�ll never forget it.

You ask what I�ve done and I ask that you look around- Russia declares war tomorrow and the world�s fattest soldiers will take up their little flags and kill those reds off with buttons and radar.
Food cooks in seconds.
Virgin soil is a myth now.
All stones have been turned to see what�s under.
Phenalynine and cheap fads have completely uprooted exercice.
The planet has become the lazy, fat, foul, boring, perfectly ignorant piece of work Bob is.

You tell me what I can do other than deny myself food, warmth and society to keep myself clean. Tell me what else there is other than the cheap ploys of those pompous ~romantics~ that became farmers so they could write about it when they came back home to their luxuries.

You�re making a lot of mistakes with me. You�re more of a woman than I am.

Hey look she's read a book. Good for you.

�In order to understand your questions you should first read Nietzsche after you�ve read Schopenhauer and the pre-Socratic Greek philosophers, especially Democritus�

��.so have you, yes?

Odd silence.

But I�m poking little girl, just for the fun of it.
No need only curiousity
Like, * flips hair in Bellsy moronic fashion *, you, like, assume, I didn�t know this?

Mankind is my study as well. We�re like sisters, Wanderer.

And what have you done lately?
Oh, I see the endless pursuit of knowing how the mind works or what consciousness is, is your chosen distraction.
But even if you could know this, what then?
Consciousness is only important if you know how to apply it even if you know nothing about where it comes from.
Let�s debate free-will until we get bored, while we avoid applying free-will altogether.
Let�s talk forever about the unknowable and forget the knowable
Precisely.

And can you see now why it is I completely ignored your ~analysis~ on the transmutation of matter in your Bob thread? If you don�t, I can point it out with my broomstick.

Speaking of which:

Do young boys fear you little girl? Do they gasp at your stare and forked tongue?
Gasp! You mean I�m not a hairy little amazon? A Sycorax? Not even a Joan Rivers?

Surely you jest.

Next thing you�ll do is write a bad review for my book and destroys my dreams of fame and fortune.
Book reviews are for spectators.

I loved your essays at first- but people, like fish, strike of their bad odors with overmuch.

You, on the other hand, will live in infamy in my mind dear. A tender woman pretending she�s a man, a fearful girl searching for a nest to lie in and finally rest.
Cute.

I love hummigbirds, yet never seen one nesting.

I choose who stands next to me not you.
You choose corpses and cadavers as your lovers I choose flesh and blood and only use cadavers as sign posts and direction finders.
Do your books feel soft when you cuddle next to them at night, does your significant other recoil at your coolness and indifference or that flash of a sneer?
Poor bastard.
I choose me, not books.

There�s something to be said of those people that wrote them, though- they knew the world and turned it over in their voluptiousness, not their sickness. These bon vivants were my catalyst, Wanderer- I let them in and by opposing or tweaking them perfected my vision. And don't think I'm only talking storybook characters either.

The ugly ones are like mold, slowly growing on you in the twilight. You yourself called you a fungus- not I.

� What did I tell you about Greeks, dear?.....I grow on people like a fungus and my effects are noticed months after first contact.
Which is as it should be, ego takes time to appreciate another ego.- Wanderer

I let light, truth, and those with earnest motives seeking to make me more than I am in. No one freely welcomes a parasitic infection.

You�re sadly mistaken to think my world is paperbound.

Is this supposed to be a display?
I'm only mildly impressed.

Nope. This is:

�The bane of existence is a question apropos and is not, according to Hebrudious Punctilious, the metempsychotic meme concordant with the Greeks of old. Rise up! said Quinzubro, charge the status quo�.....all these paradigm shifts are to be found, if one puts one�s effort into finding them, culminating beautifully in one shining masterpiece, known the world over in those famous dictas of Ptolemycious, third edition, chapter four, paragraph 6 starting with 'The'......�

If you like displays look up Tiassa. I call him Tessie. I was only showing you the difference between free spirits and those I feel like to borrow their feathers. Nothing less, nothing more.

Beauty fades wisdom never. It perishes with the mind.
But my beauty is not skin deep, like yours, it lies in my character and my will.
Neither is mine.

WANDERER

02-09-04, 08:29 AM

gendanken

Thank you. A blooming hermaphrodite�bingo. Its precisely this that makes you easier the more I deal with you, yet you don�t see this.
Good then my plan is working. I want you to think of me as both stupid and easy.

Observation number one: age only became relevant after you chose to make it so.
Observation number two: sex became an issue only after you chose to throw out a line only lonely, pathetic, perfectly gullible carrion we call women would buy and play into just for you and those watching.
One must try different baits before the right one is found for a particular fish species.

Observation number three: my disillusionment with you is nothing by proxy- you gave it to me, no one else.
Exactly. I gave it and I can take it back.
But your disillusionment with me is a disillusionment with yourself.

Observation number four: there�s more truth in you liking the idea of my being a little girl then there is real truth in me being one. More truth in an ego safely putting another ego away with quick labels than there is in the solace the first ego always employs to tell himself the alarm is a false one.
True but it is also true that one must build a caricature in order to force the other to prove that he/she isn�t one.
I create the noise and observe the reactions to it. Don�t take the noise as what defines me, it is merely my tool.

Observation number five: I don�t care what you look, smell or sound like, the money you have or how old you are- and don�t care if you did of me likewise.
Good.
But what do you care about then? Or is that too close to the bone?
Interesting that despite your disinterest you still know so much about me when I know nothing except what I see between the text lines.

Would it surprise you to find out that all these morons that feign indifference are asking questions behind the curtains about me and who I 'really' am?
Actions always speak clearer and louder than any word.
I�m fascinating dear and charismatic as well. Even when I�m hated people can�t stop listening to what I have to say and be amazed by how I say it.

And last observation: you�ll get nowhere and fast with your cute �little girl in need of a spanking� and �young one� looking your nose down where you damn well cannot. We can sit here like two little Bobs playing hopscotch with pedestrian insults and get nowhere- and if that will be the case then this is my last post to you, you syphillized monkey.
Still relying on clever put-downs to display your uniqueness and depth, huh?
I use the common ones: Stupid, retard, idiot, moron, etc.
They�re to the point and precise.

According to you, I�ve placed all my faith on the superficial.
According to you, I�ve never seen past the pretty nose or the fingernails.
According to you, I actually have fingernails.
Accroding to you, I�m the perfectly canned piece of trash turned out by Revlon each year
Nope.
According to me you�re a clever vixen putting on a face to hide her real one.
According to me you�re using language to mask your motives and real desires.
According to me you�re so afraid of being seen naked by the throng of imbeciles you despise that you use ambiguous and subtle strategies to test the waters first before you uncover yourself, like you so desperately want to.
So far you�ve found nobody worthy of your nakedness and so you�ve grown even more misanthropic and angry with men and the world of men and you�ve become angry with yourself for even needing this exposure and vulnerability.

Like you, I hide what I have. Remember the monopoly game? I�m right there next to those slavs watching them twirl the dice in complete ignorance of how foolish they look to me. They�re the burning house � and the �little girl� walks away how? Flashy nails and make up? A Lilith gimmick?
The Wanderer uses muscle to keep away idiots and imbeciles with intimidation.
It�s my way of keeping myself protected from annoyance.

You think flashy nails and lipstick is going to push away the neighborhood? What�s the matter with you, think I�m actually sitting here thinking nobility comes from calling attention to oneself? In case you didn�t know its worlds harder for a woman to hide herself in all things, and no matter how loud she cried and how big her sword was, how steeped in the complete, innocent faith of her cause or how pressed down her tits were Miss Joan of Arc was probably still sexy.
The problem here is that the very things that keep the neighbors away can keep your bothers and sisters away, as well.
Sometimes there is one playing Monopoly that, like you, is disgusted with the game and looks at you with the same severity.
How will you distinguish him/her?

Ask yourself if I care what you buy and don�t buy. Ask if I care that you came down my aisles one day, picked up some merchandise and walked out without purchasing. Ask me if it matters a damn if on my deathbed I realize there was a wandering vulture once that took me for carrion and didn�t like the meat in his mouth.
You will.
You get slapped around long enough and you want someone there to grab onto and fight back with.
It�s not only a matter of strength or a need to share ones defeats and ease ones wounds, it�s also the sharing of victories and the feeling of bloodlust or just pure lust.
It�s easy to accept ones strengths and talents, it�s ones insecurities and needs that are hard to swallow and reveal.

So many ideas and images.
So quick to narrow his options.
So quick to grab the world and fit it with shoes Made By Wanderer, t.m.
So quick to harness shadows and try fitting them in his categorical imperatives.
I�m a control junky.
In this I mirror my kind.

Little does he know I envy his battlefields of experience, envy this idea I have of him building his own home with his hands. Envy his years of living in a world that would let him live it completely, one that doesn�t part in the middle like crowds do for invalids and wheelchairs trying to make it through doorways.
Battles are better appreciated in hindsight. Once you�re in their midst the horror, fear and pain overwhelms any appreciation.
That�s why man lives life either looking forward in hope or looking backwards with nostalgia while the present passes by.
It�s this appreciation of the present that I�m looking for.
It�s not the experience you envy but the surviving of the experience.
Not many do.

There�s not a scratch on my hand and why? Because in younger years this silly girl was too busy taking the shortcuts put out for those fucking invalids while he was sweating and knowing what it feels like to build things and not buy them, think them and not be taught by them. But in trying she�s robbed of every last luscious piece of experience so easily come to him in this pampered, perfectly spoiled little world we call America.
We are all the sum of our pasts.
My hands are full of scars, tattoos, bruises and mementos of my living.

Yet I�m not even American, I�ve been incredibly poor and grown used to the scraps meant for peasants so eat it- I know both loss and defeat. You�d think all this would have bitchslapped me sooner but I�m glad it did not. My slap is harder and I�ll never forget it.
You can escape reality only for so long before it�s there again.
That�s what these idiots don�t know, their fantasy worlds and distracting entertainments are only prolonging their hurt not relieving it.
They�re like drugged-up amputees that deny the loss of a limb because they can�t feel the pain under all the medication. So they look upwards to the ceiling so that their eyes won�t look down to that missing member.
Then they forget about it until one day they reach for something and realize they can�t grab it. That�s when the real hurting begins.
And I laugh.

You ask what I�ve done and I ask that you look around- Russia declares war tomorrow and the world�s fattest soldiers will take up their little flags and kill those reds off with buttons and radar.
Food cooks in seconds.
Virgin soil is a myth now.
All stones have been turned to see what�s under.
Phenalynine and cheap fads have completely uprooted exercice.
The planet has become the lazy, fat, foul, boring, perfectly ignorant piece of work Bob is.
That�s why I�m looking for tribe members to escape into the wilds with.
A decade or two of solitude is tolerable, you have yet to experience one, but in time you have so much inner wealth that you want to share it, to give of yourself; you have so much strength that you want to feel vulnerable and dependant again because it doesn�t scare you anymore; you have so much beauty that you want to expose it and have someone else enjoy it for a change.

You tell me what I can do other than deny myself food, warmth and society to keep myself clean. Tell me what else there is other than the cheap ploys of those pompous ~romantics~ that became farmers so they could write about it when they came back home to their luxuries.
Ah and here is the hardest thing of all.
I can only speak from personal experience.
Early on I was so disappointed and disillusioned with the world and my own species that death seemed like a good alternative or a total isolation from it where I could enjoy the simplicity of a good life without having to deal with the expectations and superficial eyes of idiots.
I opted for the second choice since life held so much wonderment for me and there was so much I wanted to know and experience.
But to escape into isolation when there are no unclaimed frontiers, ironically, one must first play the game and submit to conformity.
This is where my bitterness and the source of my vengeance upon Bob comes from.
So like Dantes I scrape away at the walls of my Chateau D�If and long for my escape and rebirth.
But the world must be shared or it is not fully understood. The rapture of living can only be felt with another or others that see and feel what you do.
I had given up on finding any and the ones I�ve found have always been too far to dig tunnels between our cells and plan our escape together.
But recently I�ve heard a tapping on my wall from the cell next door. A quiet unsure tapping that gives me hope once more.
All I need to do now is use this spoon to dig my way to the other.
Wish me luck.

You�re making a lot of mistakes with me. You�re more of a woman than I am.
No mistakes, no assumption, only a testing and analyzing of reaction.

�In order to understand your questions you should first read Nietzsche after you�ve read Schopenhauer and the pre-Socratic Greek philosophers, especially Democritus�

��.so have you, yes?

Odd silence.
The odd thing is that I started reading in my late twenties and discovered these 'soul-mates' when I was around 30.
I was, up until then, too busy trying to swim while wanting to sink.
Imagine my surprise to discover others that shared my mind,my dismay and my visions. Imagine my surprise to realize that it wasn�t I that was weird and sick but this fucking world.
That's when I became proud and arrogant.

Like, * flips hair in Bellsy moronic fashion *, you, like, assume, I didn�t know this?

Mankind is my study as well. We�re like sisters, Wanderer.
Even when you flatter you insult.
It�s your way of maintaining deniability.

Gasp! You mean I�m not a hairy little amazon? A Sycorax? Not even a Joan Rivers?

Surely you jest.
What you are I haven�t decided on yet.
I am more careful with my conclusions than you may think.
Don�t mistake my means for my mind.

Book reviews are for spectators.

I loved your essays at first- but people, like fish, strike of their bad odors with overmuch.
Too much of anything can get tedious.
Sometimes I tire of myself.

Cute.

I love hummigbirds, yet never seen one nesting.
They are beautiful.
All their frantic flapping and flying around prevents the appreciation of their full beauty that becomes evident only when they sit still and just breath and just expose themselves to scrutiny and judgment and risk it all just to be seen for a while as they are.

The ugly ones are like mold, slowly growing on you in the twilight. You yourself called you a fungus- not I.

� What did I tell you about Greeks, dear?.....I grow on people like a fungus and my effects are noticed months after first contact.
Which is as it should be, ego takes time to appreciate another ego.- Wanderer

I let light, truth, and those with earnest motives seeking to make me more than I am in. No one freely welcomes a parasitic infection.
Some fungi are a product of cleanliness and not filth.
What I meant was that I rarely make good first impressions but given time people become drawn to me. They may not understand what it is intellectually but intuitively they perceive something about me that attracts them even when they attempt to remain aloof and distant.
They attack my words and then quote them and read them to their friends.
It�s happened so often that I now sit and wait expecting it as inevitable.

Nope. This is:

�The bane of existence is a question apropos and is not, according to Hebrudious Punctilious, the metempsychotic meme concordant with the Greeks of old. Rise up! said Quinzubro, charge the status quo�.....all these paradigm shifts are to be found, if one puts one�s effort into finding them, culminating beautifully in one shining masterpiece, known the world over in those famous dictas of Ptolemycious, third edition, chapter four, paragraph 6 starting with 'The'......�

If you like displays look up Tiassa. I call him Tessie. I was only showing you the difference between free spirits and those I feel like to borrow their feathers. Nothing less, nothing more.
You need not show me, I have knowledge of what is genuine and what memorization or what I call regurgitation.
It�s not even something you can precisely define. It�s an intuitive feeling that the other doesn�t fully comprehend what he�s saying or why and that the other is trying to cloud meanings to appear meaningful.
What was it that Friedrich said about wisdom and clarity?
Those that have it display clarity and attempt to remain simple so that they are understood, those that don�t mask it behind complicated ideas and ambiguous verbal pretense because insinuation and innuendo is how they maintain the illusion of intelligence and comprehension. Or words to that affect.

A sword in the hands of the untested seems clumsy and heavy. The expert uses it with a finesse and precision that it appears effortless and flowing. It looks natural and not forced.
The expert and experienced uses tools with efficiency and precision, the clumsy dolt swings away in multiple directions hoping he�ll land a good one or that the spectators will be intimidated by his wild swings and not challenge him to a duel.

BigBlueHead

02-09-04, 08:42 AM

They mortgage their hopes so that they can afford kids, house and minivan - so fucking what? If you're that stupid, rot in the hell you created.

Well, don't mistake me... I'm not talking about my desire to swoop down and rescue the bent old lady from her suffering. Even she would have realized the comedy of that, I think.

What I'm talking about is the way that one day you can open your eyes, however briefly, and see that an action you took long ago and blindly has mangled your life irretrievably, and that you might as well just close your eyes again.

Eh... I'm getting obsolete here. The conversation has swung on without me to become an even more searing indictment of popular culture.

BigBlueHead

02-09-04, 09:02 AM

A sword in the hands of the untested seems clumsy and heavy. The expert uses it with a finesse and precision that it appears effortless and flowing. It looks natural and not forced.
The expert and experienced uses tools with efficiency and precision, the clumsy dolt swings away in multiple directions hoping he’ll land a good one or that the spectators will be intimidated by his wild swings and not challenge him to a duel.

You gotta be kidding me.

guthrie

02-09-04, 04:09 PM

That is, roughly speaking, a reasonable, artistic description of a sword fight.

BigBlueHead

02-09-04, 04:15 PM

But not of a discussion. Metaphorically a swordfight and a discussion are nearly opposites, even according to Wanderer. In any case, appealing to the romance of martial skill is becoming a tiresome and overused piece of imagery in these fora.

Swordfighting is not mystical and hardly deserves to be the benchmark for skill in all things. See what the schlager teacher teaches you...

"You got to vack the uzzer guy before he vacks you. Everysing else is schtoopid posing."

Guthrie! Don't let other people shape your mind like that. You should know better.

guthrie

02-09-04, 04:27 PM

Hhehe, your right. and thats always my trouble. If you've read any Iain M banks, i'm more like the zetetic elench.
Besides, I am a swordfighter. Often it comes down to runnnig at your opponent and whacking them with part of your body before they move out the way, giving you space and time to actually get them with your weapon. Little finesse involved.

guthrie

02-09-04, 04:28 PM

I'm wondering where Gendanken is going. its interesting to watch.

Xev

02-09-04, 05:33 PM

Bloody hell you two, get a room.

guthrie:
"Interesting" is the understatement of the day:
This is completely fucking hilarious.

Mrs.Lucysnow

02-09-04, 07:16 PM

Quote:Tell me what else there is other than the cheap ploys of those pompous ~romantics~ that became farmers so they could write about it when they came back home to their luxuries.

Pompous or not at least they have choices. Luxury like ownership is a privilege.

BigBlueHead

02-10-04, 08:31 AM

Xev:

Guthrie! Don't let other people shape your mind like that. You should know better.

That ain't strokin', that's just a pointer. For the rest of it... well... I'm tired of hearing the crap (s)wordplay metaphor. Seems like I hear it almost as much as Goshdarn Ockham's Razor these days.

EDIT: Changed my citation

gendanken

02-10-04, 07:02 PM

Xev:

This is completely fucking hilarious.
Laughing like that is for fountainboys.

Lucysnow:

Pompous or not at least they have choices. Luxury like ownership is a privilege
Yeah but they were still assholes.

Wanderer:

Good then my plan is working. I want you to think of me as both stupid and easy.
I think neither. Its easy for me to deal with you is what I said and it has something to do with immunity. Can't say I'm perfectly immune (remember the hermaphrodite, yes?), but I have a theory on attraction and why humans cling to each other.

Could be bullshit. Don't know.

Still relying on clever put-downs to display your uniqueness and depth, huh?
I use the common ones: Stupid, retard, idiot, moron, etc.
They�re to the point and precise.
The happy thinker has something the angry, diseased one lacks and the only word that comes close to what it is, is "color".

I'm a happy one...between moods of course. I'm also one of those manic authors that can't keep the noise down- a wannabe.

According to me you�re using language to mask your motives and real desires..
Language. Look around, that's all you'll find in here. But tell me, why do you keep thinking I only speak of the forums?

According to me you�re so afraid of being seen naked by the throng of imbeciles you despise that you use ambiguous and subtle strategies to test the waters first before you uncover yourself, like you so desperately want to.
So far you�ve found nobody worthy of your nakedness and so you�ve grown even more misanthropic and angry with men and the world of men and you�ve become angry with yourself for even needing this exposure and vulnerability.
Nope, equal opportunity misanthropy. But you're right though, men are far more interesting and dynamic even in their predictability.
This both angers and amuses me.

The Wanderer uses muscle to keep away idiots and imbeciles with intimidation.
It�s my way of keeping myself protected from annoyance.
Oh?

"I freely urge others to ignore me. Inconspicuous observation is clearer, being under-estimated gives me an advantage and I never was one for being the center of attention anyways"

The problem here is that the very things that keep the neighbors away can keep your bothers and sisters away, as well.
The problem here, again, is in you insisting for some reason that I'm only talking about the forums but if you'd like to, lets.

From now on lets only speak of the forums then.

Sometimes there is one playing Monopoly that, like you, is disgusted with the game and looks at you with the same severity.
How will you distinguish him/her?
In their lack of strategies, caricatures and silly mindgames with my 'kind'.

I recognize something of my 'kind' in you, I did from the beginning. Reading you struck me almost in the way Nietzche appealed to me when I found him but......not quite, yet fresh compared to the usual. But then you began to get repetive...ugly...bulky. And here's those metaphors you like so much- instead of a nightengale you became something like a bat, and the bat in me grew ashamed it could hear you where all other mammals could not.

Understand?

Interesting that despite your disinterest you still know so much about me when I know nothing except what I see between the text lines.
Don't you realize I've been reading you from the beginning?
I'm.Not.Disinterested.
I was interested from the very beginning but no longer. Who the fuck is feigning interest?
What I know about you is only what you gave me, and what became of it was inevitable.

Synopsis: there's a fresh face named Wanderer, wonderful threads, wonderful insight (Hypersesitivity was a personal favorite), clarity, though lacking, still clear. All this for some time until somwhere in an Amercian, Bob or a Spookz thread I lost you, lost interest. Or you lost me. No matter- but the idea of you changed and you did it.You're so called "charm" (ha) I've only seen in this thread.

And you don't even see there's someone looking back on you with the same "severity". I know why.

Exactly. I gave it (disillusionment) and I can take it back.
Nope.

But your disillusionment with me is a disillusionment with yourself.
And you're inability to see where it came from and why is your folly.
Why do you do that?

One must try different baits before the right one is found for a particular fish species.
Fish? Like a piranha in the dirty bowl with the goldfish? Interesting.

Yes, a piranha swimming in goldfish. NO!- a goldfish.....yes, you and your clever metaphors.

It�s not the experience you envy but the surviving of the experience.
Not many do.
Indeed. Yet even a taste, a small taste of heroism is denied to the modern mind.

Fucking sucks, but one gets used to it.

We are all the sum of our pasts.

Then don't hold mine against me. You do.

You can escape reality only for so long before it�s there again.
That�s what these idiots don�t know, their fantasy worlds and distracting entertainments are only prolonging their hurt not relieving it.
They�re like drugged-up amputees that deny the loss of a limb because they can�t feel the pain under all the medication. So they look upwards to the ceiling so that their eyes won�t look down to that missing member.
Then they forget about it until one day they reach for something and realize they can�t grab it. That�s when the real hurting begins.
And I laugh.

If you don't lie to yourself- and I don't know just yet if you don't- at least don't lie to me.

What you just said applies to Bobs and Bibbettes because their fantasies are selfless and hollow, and this is precicely why they're fanstasies. My reality is so selfish and far more human than saints claim to be- its like a gift to both me and humanity and they'll never see it. None of this is forgettable.

Its as if I always assumed I was an amputee until all on my own I tried running and found 2 healthy legs that will never break. It feels like 4 sometimes.

Something like that.

A decade or two of solitude is tolerable, you have yet to experience one, but in time you have so much inner wealth that you want to share it, to give of yourself; you have so much strength that you want to feel vulnerable and dependant again because it doesn�t scare you anymore; you have so much beauty that you want to expose it and have someone else enjoy it for a change.
This is what makes you odd to me.

The fact, the very fact that someone like you can *still* say something as beautifully true as that is odd to me. This is the honesty I look for and its strange seeing it on you- which seems mildly dangerous if not phony. You wanting to share all of that supposed wealth- what is that? Makes you sound like your other little metaphor- a greek bearing gifts, no?

It seems self defeating letting you in anywhere. Giving one's self to someone like you, or what you mask yourself in, is some word I can't grab at the moment.

Follow?

Early on I was so disappointed and disillusioned with the world and my own species that death seemed like a good alternative or a total isolation from it where I could enjoy the simplicity of a good life without having to deal with the expectations and superficial eyes of idiots.
I opted for the second choice since life held so much wonderment for me and there was so much I wanted to know and experience.
Amen

The rapture of living can only be felt with another or others that see and feel what you do
Why 'only'? I've felt it alone- many times. Still do.
This rapture only enhances its pleasures when one shares it. Period.

But recently I�ve heard a tapping on my wall from the cell next door. A quiet unsure tapping that gives me hope once more.
All I need to do now is use this spoon to dig my way to the other.
Wish me luck
No need. I don't believe in it but you're free to make you some if you'd like.

I only wonder if that 'tapping' will stop and go hide itself the closer you come. Ha.

The odd thing is that I started reading in my late twenties and discovered these 'soul-mates' when I was around 30.
I was, up until then, too busy trying to swim while wanting to sink.
Imagine my surprise to discover others that shared my mind,my dismay and my visions. Imagine my surprise to realize that it wasn�t I that was weird and sick but this fucking world.
That's when I became proud and arrogant.

Understood. Perfectly understood.

Your only error lies in thinking there are such things as soul mates.

Some fungi are a product of cleanliness and not filth.
Pause.

Riiight.

What I meant was that I rarely make good first impressions but given time people become drawn to me.
Oh no no no........don't know about any of them but at least with me you have it reversed. Your first impressions were delicious.

They may not understand what it is intellectually but intuitively they perceive something about me that attracts them even when they attempt to remain aloof and distant.
They attack my words and then quote them and read them to their friends.
It�s happened so often that I now sit and wait expecting it as inevitable.

Spookology 101.

Burn that poodle.

Those that have it display clarity and attempt to remain simple so that they are understood, those that don�t mask it behind complicated ideas and ambiguous verbal pretense because insinuation and innuendo is how they maintain the illusion of intelligence and comprehension. Or words to that affect.

A sword in the hands of the untested seems clumsy and heavy. The expert uses it with a finesse and precision that it appears effortless and flowing. It looks natural and not forced.

The expert and experienced uses tools with efficiency and precision, the clumsy dolt swings away in multiple directions hoping he�ll land a good one or that the spectators will be intimidated by his wild swings and not challenge him to a duel.

You just described Bigbluehead.

Take a bow, Tealnoggin. We salute you.

*Edit: Fuck.Spelling.And.Keyboards.

WANDERER

02-11-04, 01:21 AM

gendanken

I think neither. Its easy for me to deal with you is what I said and it has something to do with immunity. Can't say I'm perfectly immune (remember the hermaphrodite, yes?), but I have a theory on attraction and why humans cling to each other.

Could be bullshit. Don't know.
Tell me all about it. I'm listening.
Does it have to do with clinging to what you find lacking in yourself or to what is so abundant in yourself?

The happy thinker has something the angry, diseased one lacks and the only word that comes close to what it is, is "color".

I'm a happy one...between moods of course. I'm also one of those manic authors that can't keep the noise down- a wannabe.
Sometimes writing just to clear ones mind and make space for new thoughts is enough.
No one need read it.
I�ve written things I would only show to a chosen few because they are so personal and honest.
I write for myself and those I love and trust and not the world.
The world can kiss my ass.
It is getting difficult to remain joyful on this joyless earth.
The only way towards any prolonged happiness seems to be distraction from life itself or inebriation through medication that keeps one apathetic and lethargic or isolation.
But I�m convinced that there may be another way. If one creates the right intimate environment around ones self and places walls around Springsteen�s �Secret Gardens�.
Sometimes I make these elaborate plans about returning to Greece and building a private sanctuary there, where I can grow my own food, keep my own domesticated animals and live closer to the earth with few of the �modern� luxuries.
Where no frontiers exist one must today close off a piece of the earth and claim it as his own.
But the solitude can be both attractive and frightening.
One wants to pass through life and at least once share what one perceives and values and respects so as to feel like his life had some meaning beyond hedonism.
One wants to show what one became and why and one becomes so overflowing with wonderment and joy and love that he does not want to squander it away to the undeserving or to just keep it for oneself like a miser.

Language. Look around, that's all you'll find in here. But tell me, why do you keep thinking I only speak of the forums?
This Forum is all we have.
My experiences of you begin and end here. But this Forum is also an extension of the �real� world and can serve as a microcosm.
I can only relate to you through the context of this Forum. It is our common point of reference because our personal experiences and circumstances may have taken us down different paths even if we may have arrived to similar destinations because of our common ancestry and spiritual drives and characteristics.

Oh?

"I freely urge others to ignore me. Inconspicuous observation is clearer, being under-estimated gives me an advantage and I never was one for being the center of attention anyways"
Muscle and intimidation in the empirical superficial world where size matters, indifference and inconspicuousness in the realm of thought and intellectualism; one needs both to keep different types of moron away and afraid.
I play the game, not because I want to but because I have to and I�ve grown to enjoy it.
I�ve always been fascinated with behaviourism.
It started with a childhood interest in ants and bees, and then it turned to the study of mammals and �higher� life forms that has concluded with a desire to comprehend human kind and in the process understand self so that more self-control can be achieved and personal potential can be reached.
Very little of this �study� has been through books. All of it has been based on personal observations and analysis with guiding help, once in awhile, by others that have lived before me and focused on the same subjects.
I have no studies or scientific evidence to offer but only personal viewpoints and attestations.
But what�s the value of statistics if they prevent effort and personal insight?
It is better to have an incomplete or even an erroneous opinion that is ones own than to have one primarily based on other people�s observations and efforts.
The first demands a spherical and in depth comprehension of the subject and a keen awareness of detail, the second only requires an average intellect and a good memory.

But there is no contradiction here just different methods of remaining discreet.

The problem here, again, is in you insisting for some reason that I'm only talking about the forums but if you'd like to, lets.
I wasn�t only talking about the Forum.

In their lack of strategies, caricatures and silly mindgames with my 'kind'.

I recognize something of my 'kind' in you, I did from the beginning. Reading you struck me almost in the way Nietzche appealed to me when I found him but..not quite, yet fresh compared to the usual. But then you began to get repetive...ugly...bulky. And here's those metaphors you like so much- instead of a nightengale you became something like a bat almost, and the bat in me grew ashamed it could hear you where all other mammals could not.

Understand?
I understand completely.
Can you understand how it is a balancing act between saying what you want to say and not exposing too much of yourself to ridicule and misunderstanding?
I�m repetitive because I remain on the same themes and I�m focused on the same subjects.
All of them, except for some glimpses, are as far away from my deeper self as possible so that my pure self isn�t soiled by the dirt of the filthy.

Don't you realize I've been reading you from the beginning?
I'm.Not.Disinterested.
I was interested from the very beginning. Who the fuck is feigning interest?
What I know about you is what you gave me, and what became of it was inevitable.

Synopse: a fresh face named Wanderer, wonderful threads, wonderfull insight (Hypersesitivity was a personal favorite), clarity, though lacking, still clear. All this for some time until somwhere in an Amercian, Bob or a Spookz thread I lost you.Or you lost me. No matter- but the idea of you changed and you did it.You're so called "charm" (ha) I've only seen in this thread.
Now it is you assuming that I did not know any of this.
I knew that you were watching, I just didn�t know if you approved.
I actually know that many more watch in silence and find a relation to my words.
But my �American� �What about Bob?� and �In memory of Spookz� threads were my vengeance upon imbeciles and their total inability to grasp nuance.
I had to become vulgar and stoop to their level to get it through those thick skulls of theirs. It was an act of venting, a momentary submission to decadence.
I wanted to show them my disdain for them and raise that mirror in front of their faces and show them what they�ve become to me and how I see them as.
All those �talkers� of love and compassion that know neither really and disguise selfishness, stupidity, self-hatred and fear with masks of pretentiousness, selflessness and altruism.
How easy one loves that does not know love and talks of romance and monogamy when neither can be appreciated.
How easy one pretends interest and understanding and neither is there.
How easy compassion and justice is exuded by those that can grasp neither.
How easy one uses loyalty, responsibility, devotion when the burden is never fully felt.
How easy one speaks of honour, dignity, freedom and nobility when the price for them all is so misunderstood.
How easy it is to be a superficial idiot and then callously and casually justify error that is due to an inability to perceive the totality of it all.

Did you notice how popular these vulgar threads became though? Typical.
I once got expelled from a Forum [the one I was in before this one] for just posting the �What about Bob?� thread. It got the herd so riled up, as it did here, that I was deemed too disruptive or perhaps too �dangerous� {Xev could attest to this} , even though it mentions nobody specifically and uses no profanity or vulgarity. They called me a 'Troll', which at the time was a term I was not familiar with, so that they didn�t have to deal with my observations.
I recently saw a �60 Minutes� piece where the phenomenon of Evangelicals in the US is described. It appears these morons, of the Christian variety, believe in something called �The Rapture� in which Jesus comes down and whisks them away from Earth, those �true believers, leaving behind all us infidels and the damned.
The amount of people believing in this crap? 70 million strong amongst whom are CEO�s doctors, scientists and all other sorts of imbeciles.
This in the US, the center of the western world and a supposed secular nation whose president openly proclaims his salvation through Jesus.
Then these Forum idiots have the balls and the audacity to call me on my �generalizations� and caricaturing of America. I didn�t go far enough in my disdain, I think.
These dolts still cling to their �diversity� myth and imagined uniqueness to escape their own inanity.
Meanwhile 1/3 of their tribe does not even participate in the political process and is seeped in apathy and lethargy and the other 2/3 follow carefully scripted roads of thought.

I just love watching the herd stampede in panic because they leave behind their weakest members to be picked-off and devoured with ease. It�s a fascinating glimpser into human nature.

And you're inability to see where it came from and why is your folly.
Why do you do that?
I never take myself too seriously and you trying to figure me out is how I judge your value from a distance.

Fish? Like a pirana in the dirty bowl with the goldfish? Interesting.
Yes, a piranha swimming in goldfish. NO!- a goldfish.....yes, you and your clever metaphors.
I use metaphor to become precise and still maintain distance and indirectness.
I use it to confuse the prattle and expose myself to my own kind cautiously.

Indeed. Yet even a taste, a small taste of heroism is denied to the modern mind.

Fucking sucks, but one gets used to it.
Or it burns you inside in silence often coming out in bursts of anger.

Then don't hold mine against me. You do.
I hold nothing against you except.... my ear.
I�m not frowning down on you I�m smelling the air which raises my nose up high.

If you don't lie to yourself- and I don't know just yet if you don't- at least don't lie to me.
Why would I lie to someone that can see right through me?
I am ashamed of nothing and freely show what I am to those that can appreciate it.

What you just said applies to Bobs and Bibbettes because their fantasies are selfless and hollow, and this is precicely why they're fanstasies. My reality is so selfish and far more human than saints claim to be- its like a gift to both me and humanity and they'll never see it. None of this is forgettable.
It is precisely that reality I want you to talk to me about beyond the posturing and ambiguity.

Its as if I always assumed I was an amputee until all on my own I tried running and found 2 healthy legs that will never break. It feels like 4 sometimes.

Something like that.
Then you are part of the lucky few.
I say luck because genes have a part in this as does the chance of environment.

This is what makes you odd to me.

The fact, the very fact that someone like you can *still* say something as beautifully true as that is odd to me. This is the honesty I look for and its strange seeing it on you- which seems mildly dangerous if not phony. You wanting to share all of that supposed wealth- what is that? Makes you sound like your other little metaphor- a greek bearing gifts, no?
All my essays are personal but I would not admit it to anyone.
My �honesty� is not meant for public Forums where idiots roam to belittle and vent their insecurities upon the healthy.
�Phoney�?
You�ve been surrounded by dirt and filth for too long and now you see something gleaming bright in it and you can�t believe your eyes...You doubt them.
My honesty has hurt me so much in the past, my open heart has been bruised so many times that I�ve learned to hide it now behind allegory and symbolism, not wanting to give it up completely and shut it tight.
It is this time of solitude that has filled me with wealth and the need to give of it.
Does it surprise you to find someone noble that is not yet dead or hiding?
Do you think I�ve plagiarized my essays and only pretended my mind?
They have been the product of great suffering and personal struggle.
I�ve earned my words.
Your scepticism flatters me.

It seems alomst self defeating letting you in anywhere. Giving one's self to someone like you, or what you mask yourself in, is some word I can't grab at the moment.

Follow?
Terrifying?!
But the need to open the gates is still there despite the risks.
Self-exposure is full of anxieties and fear and yet the drive pushes us on.

Perhaps I am a scam artist and a fake. Let time decide for you.
Scepticism is a sign of mental health.
Like I said, I grow on people and then eventually they realize that I�ve been the real thing but by then I�ve often wandered off again into another group of bewildered automatons looking once more, searching again for that single one amongst them.
Free-spirits rarely recognize each other, they�re too busy trying to mask themselves or too distracted to notice.

Why 'only'? I've felt it alone- many times. Still do.
This rapture only enhances its pleasures when one shares it. Period.
What I meant to say.

No need. I don't believe in it but you're free to make you some if you'd like.

I only wonder if that 'tapping' will stop and go hide itself the closer you come. Ha.
That�s why I need luck.
As I�ve grown older I�ve realized that chance has a lot to do with where one winds up.

Disappointment has been a companion of mine. I�ve learned to expect him now.
But I still hope and wait and scrape away at the walls with my spoon expecting to hear the other scraping the walls in my direction as well, for a change.
It�s hard connecting to people; so many practical issues, so many emotional ones, so much risk and a necessity for total vulnerability that scares us.
I�m hoping this other will take a chance, as I am doing.

Understood. Perfectly understood.

Your only error lies in thinking there are such things as soul mates.
It all depends on what is meant by �soul mates�.
Do I believe two people can complete each other and be compatible? Yes.
Do I believe two people can be completely alike? No.

Oh no no no........don't know about any of them but at least with me you have it reversed. Your first impressions were delicious.
Now it�s you thinking I�m only referring to this Forum.
I actually meant in real everyday life.
Mind takes time to be revealed, body is there at once. Here in the Forum the reverse is true and so my �first impression� is always good and perhaps the second impression is the bad one.

You just described Bigbluehead.

Take a bow, Tealnoggin. We salute you.
I think we are beginning to understand each other better.
Posers are all about us. Filtering out the noise to hear the melody requires focus and distinctive tastes.

BigBlueHead

02-11-04, 09:38 AM

Wanderer/Gendanken:

I'll make this brief, as I've fallen behind in this discussion and it's starting to look like a wall to me. I've reread this thread in order to get my context back and I saw a thing or two which I hadn't noticed before.

Way back on page 3, gendy mentioned the cards that Wanderer plays... a legitimate comment. At times Wanderer reminds me of a character from an old cartoon who started every conversation with a trifling attempt on the other person's life... but this isn't a helpful example. So, I'll try to make myself clear.

Wanderer often attempts to upset or jar his counterpart with quick changes of context, like so:

Weak insult -> discussion of desire -> dismissal of counterpart -> oblique encouragement -> generalization.

The divisions that he creates so strongly in his discourse make the unity of his writing components more obvious... hence, cards. He places them on the table, a large collection of words nonetheless representing an atomic point and change of direction. His writing style brings out the impression, but everyone writes this way more or less.

And whoever else is reading this, EVERYONE MEANS YOU. Your discourse consists largely of these unitary supported assertions - cards - that come prepackaged our of your head and need only minimal changes to suit the discussion.

So if you can see Wanderer's cards, and you can't see your own, look harder. They're there.

Gendy: I'm not sure if that's what you meant. If not... too bad. Heh.

WANDERER

02-12-04, 06:54 AM

There you are again more interested in the packaging than the contents, more focused on words than meanings, more aware of style and 'what's' rather than 'why's'.
Words denote motives and/or drives and purposes.
When you look at a painting do you remain transfixed on brush strokes and coloration schemes and painting style or do you sit back and attempt to percieve the picture, the sensation and the intended message?
All language is an art form, even when it is practiced by an illiterate, in that it uses symbols to represent and to create emotive and/or abstract personal perceptions.

My 'cards', as you put it, were always plain to see I keep them exposed even while I'm playing poker.
But you can see the cards one at a time or as a union, a 'hand', and realize that there is a pattern there.

BigBlueHead

02-12-04, 07:36 AM

There you are again more interested in the packaging than the contents, more focused on words than meanings, more aware of style and 'what's' rather than 'why's'.

You would have said this about anyone.
However, I must resort to a McLuhanism, and say "the packaging IS the contents".

My 'cards', as you put it, were always plain to see I keep them exposed even while I'm playing poker.
But you can see the cards one at a time or as a union, a 'hand', and realize that there is a pattern there.

As I thought... you've entirely failed to understand my metaphor. Not too surprising, since it wasn't a very good one anyway. I'm starting to think that metaphor crash is one of my greatest flaws as a communicator.

gendanken

02-12-04, 07:54 PM

Bigblue:

And whoever else is reading this, EVERYONE MEANS YOU. Your discourse consists largely of these unitary supported assertions - cards - that come prepackaged our of your head and need only minimal changes to suit the discussion.

Wanderer often attempts to upset or jar his counterpart with quick changes of context, like so:

Weak insult -> discussion of desire -> dismissal of counterpart -> oblique encouragement -> generalization.

Ha! Is this your fancy way of saying "pigheaded"? * tee hee*

Anyway, you've got to be out of your godammned skull, Blue. I don't think you meant it this way, but I have neither cards nor games- in fact I'm the honest one here.

Wanderer's more like this though:

Ambiguous address > downplayed interest > honest frustration >attack > a final ironic mix of his yearn to expose and protect.

In short: ambifuckinguity galore.

Wanderer:

Tell me all about it. I'm listening.
Does it have to do with clinging to what you find lacking in yourself or to what is so abundant in yourself?

Allright, we'll pretend you're truly interested and not just 'poking'. If nothing else this can at least serve as a cheap plug.

I call it the spiritual diet.

In isolation the human spirit is questionable and by questioning there's insecurity, a state where we all know the dominant feeling is "lack". And so, "attraction" or "need" comes not from what we see in others but from what they see in us, which alone we either don't see or question.

Example- by you saying this:

"Why would I lie to someone that can see right through me?
I am ashamed of nothing and freely show what I am to those that can appreciate it. "- wanderer

Or this:

"A few months ago I would have not believed you but now that I have personal experience with your type of woman, I do not doubt it at all.
A ferocious wonderment you must be." - wanderer

.......the natural reaction in a weak mind is to cling on to you since you fill that lack by you recognizing its worthiness. Without that recognition the weak mind remains aneimic without you.

Enter sex:
If the woman is average, he's her lord.
If she is beautiful, he's the servant with bedroom privileges.
Two selfish ideas match...... throw in some genitals....... and there lies the 'magical' shit the laity calls 'love'. This is easy- there's no real thinking or logic involved.

It is not as easy with the supposed noble, but the diet's the same. Meaning: I would tailor myself at any cost for that one glimmer of recognition or image you paint of me if only to feed myself if I'm lacking- which I'm not.
Its only after the ego is well fed that one seeks to share and be vulnerable again.

Now, before this final stage there was a trial of lack and uncertainty- you yourself said you questioned your sanity until around 30 when 'soul mates' acknowledged your worth and made you arrogant, yes? That was clinging.

And so now that I'm done, I too would not mind sharing with one almost like me if not better- and you've proved to me that you're not it.
You see know why I've said its made easier?

Of course this theory is all bullshit as soon as the genitals flare up- sex always wins in the end. Fuck biology.

Sometimes writing just to clear ones mind and make space for new thoughts is enough.
No one need read it.
I�ve written things I would only show to a chosen few because they are so personal and honest.
I write for myself and those I love and trust and not the world.
The world can kiss my ass.

And it can lick mine.

All I write is personal, colorful, intriguing and it sizzles with honesty.
I'll show the whole bloody world when I'm ready- not just a choice few.

It is getting difficult to remain joyful on this joyless earth.
The only way towards any prolonged happiness seems to be distraction from life itself or inebriation through medication that keeps one apathetic and lethargic or isolation.
But I�m convinced that there may be another way. If one creates the right intimate environment around ones self and places walls around Springsteen�s �Secret Gardens�
Always remember that Schopy died a lonely, old, fat, miserable man. You knew this already.

But the solitude can be both attractive and frightening.
One wants to pass through life and at least once share what one perceives and values and respects so as to feel like his life had some meaning beyond hedonism.
One wants to show what one became and why and one becomes so overflowing with wonderment and joy and love that he does not want to squander it away to the undeserving or to just keep it for oneself like a miser.

Again- the oddity in you.

At this point I don't think I'd doubt this burning need you have to share your supposed wealth. If we really are like sisters, I believe it....... but it seems we're only related by bad blood.

A great soul craving freedom and truth can't be stuffed with sermons and rhetoric at any point during its own kind dying to reach out to it. Mindgames soil the magic.

I�ve always been fascinated with behaviourism.
It started with a childhood interest in ants and bees, and then it turned to the study of mammals and �higher� life forms that has concluded with a desire to comprehend human kind and in the process understand self so that more self-control can be achieved and personal potential can be reached.
Very little of this �study� has been through books. All of it has been based on personal observations and analysis with guiding help, once in awhile, by others that have lived before me and focused on the same subjects.
I have no studies or scientific evidence to offer but only personal viewpoints and attestations.

Neither do I and so are mine.

I did my 'studies' in waiting rooms (hospitals, clinics)- the most fascinating place to dissect people, I swear. Quiet unsuspecting humans not knowing they're being watched- its the easiest thing in the world picking out the shy ones or the perverted ones, the repressed or Christian ones, all the walks of life neatly stuffed in a room for you to observe without having to play mindgames.

Women were easy, as always, but men so much easier depending on how I looked that day. Sweeeeeeet.

I wasn�t only talking about the Forum.
Ditto.

Can you understand how it is a balancing act between saying what you want to say and not exposing too much of yourself to ridicule and misunderstanding?

And can you understand that its this very thing you do that's severed the bloodline?
Understand you used it on the wrong person.

And can you see that despite knowing this I went ahead and revealed things I knew full well would expose me to ridicule? Its the only way to show noxious game players how fucking silly games are.

All of them(essays), except for some glimpses, are as far away from my deeper self as possible so that my pure self isn�t soiled by the dirt of the filthy
Sounds..........sterile. You'll bore your audiance one day.
Nietzche found me some years ago and I swear to you you can still imagine him crying, shrieking, and laughing over his pages as he wrote them.

I think there's a tender part in you, but you're sick in it.

I knew that you were watching, I just didn�t know if you approved.
I actually know that many more watch in silence and find a relation to my words.
And if you knew I approved there'd be an attraction- which you'll never know after we're done here. Simple human engineering.

But my �American� �What about Bob?� and �In memory of Spookz� threads were my vengeance upon imbeciles and their total inability to grasp nuance.
I had to become vulgar and stoop to their level to get it through those thick skulls of theirs. It was an act of venting, a momentary submission to decadence.

But its not just those threads though- your 2nd entry in this thread turned my stomach. Its still there if you don't know what I'm talking about.

But concerning having to stoop now and then to rub shit in their face for being suckflies- understandable. Perfectly understood.

How easy one loves that does not know love and talks of romance and monogamy when neither can be appreciated.
How easy one pretends interest and understanding and neither is there.
How easy compassion and justice is exuded by those that can grasp neither.
How easy one uses loyalty, responsibility, devotion when the burden is never fully felt.
How easy one speaks of honour, dignity, freedom and nobility when the price for them all is so misunderstood.
How easy it is to be a superficial idiot and then callously and casually justify error that is due to an inability to perceive the totality of it all.

Hear, hear, hear and amen.

It appears these morons, of the Christian variety, believe in something called �The Rapture� in which Jesus comes down and whisks them away from Earth, those �true believers, leaving behind all us infidels and the damned.
The amount of people believing in this crap? 70 million strong amongst whom are CEO�s doctors, scientists and all other sorts of imbeciles. .............

These dolts still cling to their �diversity� myth and imagined uniqueness to escape their own inanity.
Meanwhile 1/3 of their tribe does not even participate in the political process and is seeped in apathy and lethargy and the other 2/3 follow carefully scripted roads of thought.

No.Fucking.Shit.

And they'll point to Islam and call *that* indoctrination. Never mind that they have no fucking clue why it is they believe in what they're told to, at least they're "unique" and "perfectly free" in believing it democratically.

Reminds me of those blind date shows where everyone and their brother hooks up to tell each other how different and unique they are........even though they just sit there saying and doing the same fucking things batting their damn eyelashes. You tell them how stupid they look and they scoff.

God I hate people.

I never take myself too seriously and you trying to figure me out is how I judge your value from a distance.

Then I've been wasting my time. No matter- this may be my last post to you (depending) and its this, Janet's ugly boob, or mentrual blood.

Don't ask.

I use metaphor to become precise and still maintain distance and indirectness.
I use it to confuse the prattle and expose myself to my own kind cautiously.

All those games and words, words, words.

Its a wonder you never get confused in the cackle. My.

Or it burns you inside in silence often coming out in bursts of anger.

Yes. Sing it man.......I believe you.

I hold nothing against you except.... my ear.
I�m not frowning down on you I�m smelling the air which raises my nose up high.

You're free to frown.
And moody butterflies don't smell.

All my essays are personal but I would not admit it to anyone.
My �honesty� is not meant for public Forums where idiots roam to belittle and vent their insecurities upon the healthy.
�Phoney�?
You�ve been surrounded by dirt and filth for too long and now you see something gleaming bright in it and you can�t believe your eyes...You doubt them............................
Your scepticism flatters me.
And your 'poking' doesn't.

Make up your mind, will you? Personal or not?
And honesty has backfired on me many, many times as well but I must be a gullible kitchen wench since it hasn't taught me to be a miserable liar.

Not exactly calling you one- keep your panties on. You know what I mean.

Does it surprise you to find someone noble that is not yet dead or hiding?

What the devil makes you think I'd be surprised to find that nobility is "not yet dead"? Think I've only read about it in books? Why *should* I be surprised if I'm sitting here perfectly sound and teeming with life- I'm looking right at it. There's only one other person in this world who's as good as the good in me- but that's another story.

You, I'm still unsure of.

Disappointment has been a companion of mine. I�ve learned to expect him now.
But I still hope and wait and scrape away at the walls with my spoon expecting to hear the other scraping the walls in my direction as well, for a change.
It�s hard connecting to people; so many practical issues, so many emotional ones, so much risk and a necessity for total vulnerability that scares us.
I�m hoping this other will take a chance, as I am doing.

True enough. But if this "other" is what I think it is and anything like you, something tells me the one 'tapping' is already this Disappontement you've grown to expect and not so and so. I could be wrong, but I doubt.

Ha.

It is precisely that reality I want you to talk to me about beyond the posturing and ambiguity
::fuming::

Ambiguity? You'll never see it and why?

Answer:

"But I�m poking little girl, just for the fun of it.
No need only curiousity.
Mankind is my study. What else is there to do?"

Xev

02-12-04, 08:24 PM

gendanken:

Laughing like that is for fountainboys.

Excuse me?
I'm witnessing two people trying to fuck each other in some of the most disingenous styles that I've ever seen and you lump me in with a blinking twit like that just for sniggering? Now I'm offended.
No this is great, from the Wanderer's avunculism and calculated rudeness to your impassioned protests that you're "not that sort of girl!" and veiled references to your physique. Do you really think fountainboy could appreciate this?

gendanken

02-12-04, 09:00 PM

Xev:

gendanken:

Excuse me?
I'm witnessing two people trying to fuck each other in some of the most disingenous styles that I've ever seen and you lump me in with a blinking twit like that just for sniggering? Now I'm offended.

No need.

Laughing for fouintainboys- as in at them. But you're welcome to feeling insulted if you'd like.

No this is great, from the Wanderer's avunculism and calculated rudeness to your impassioned protests that you're "not that sort of girl!" and veiled references to your physique. Do you really think fountainboy could appreciate this?

Ask yourself exactly when it was that any references to my 'physicque' came up and if you can't find it, I'll gladly point it out for you.

And there's nothing here to ~appreciate~.

Mephura

02-12-04, 09:00 PM

wow... now that is an interpretation I wouldn't expect.
Says alot...

gendanken

02-12-04, 09:03 PM

Mephura:

wow... now that is an interpretation I wouldn't expect.
Says alot...

The fuck? And what the hell are you doing here?

Mephura

02-12-04, 09:09 PM

A little light reading. That's about it.

The comment wasn't aimed at you, so don't fret about it.

Xev

02-12-04, 09:27 PM

gendanken:
I love feeling insulted, it's so degrading and yet you're so awfully proud about it.
Couple pages ago, can't be bothered searching. Don't worry - if you hadn't implied, he'd have made all manner of snide implications about how your intellect is an overcompensation for not being a bubbly, bouncy piece of ass.

Mephura:
Fuck off, fanboy. It does not say "a lot", "a little" or "anything at all". It is so incredibly annoying when people assume that an interpretation says anything at all.

15ofthe19

02-12-04, 09:37 PM

I can't believe it, but I'm with Xev on this one. This is nothing more than disgusting foreplay between a couple of lonely, sado-masochists

Hed gives out awards for best posts.

Can I start nominations for "Most Obviously Desperately Lonely Misanthropic Poster"?

I've got two names in mind...

**Laughs at Wanderer's feeble attempts at flirting with Gen** :D

gendanken

02-12-04, 11:17 PM

Xev:

Don't worry - if you hadn't implied, he'd have made all manner of snide implications about how your intellect is an overcompensation for not being a bubbly, bouncy piece of ass.
*yawn and yawn*

Of course- and if he had implied I would have done exactly as I did with Spooky and all the other suckflies when they did- let on that I really am a fat pig with three tits. All.The.Way.

15of19:

can't believe it, but I'm with Xev on this one. This is nothing more than disgusting foreplay between a couple of lonely, sado-masochists

Now, exactly how many times have I told you to eat my shit again? Three or four? Lucky for you I'm ovulating and my bowels are dripping..........open up.

Something tells me you haven't even read all my posts, little boy. Foreplay, my
ass

15ofthe19

02-12-04, 11:27 PM

What a sad life you must live.

gendanken

02-12-04, 11:35 PM

15of19:

What a sad life you must live.

Incredibly sad.

-gendy

15ofthe19

02-12-04, 11:42 PM

I'm sorry to hear that Gen. You've directed your anger toward me in a few cases. I've yet to understand why. But whatever the reason, your anger is mis-directed. I'm not your enemy.

I have enjoyed your complete and utter deconstruction of W in this thread.

Not that it takes much to accomplish what you have done, but it's still been fun to witness.

Xev

02-13-04, 12:28 AM

Mephura:

Fanboy? Hardly.

Excuse me? You've been drooling all over the woman. You follow her every-fucking-where and you howl like a little girl when someone suggests that she may have a second interest. Ergo, you are her fanboy. Be fucking subtle or accept the title.

But I am currious about one thing, Xev. If your words don't say anything, why bother saying them?

Now - of course an interpretation speaks of one's worldview.
However, discrediting an interpretation because it does so is ad hominem and childish.

Actually, don't bother answering. This isn't worth my time

Oh I'm hurt, she must spank you harder than I ever could.

15ofthe19:

I have enjoyed your complete and utter deconstruction of W in this thread.

Excuse me? Your resentment seems to have clouded your vision - she hasn't deconstructed him at all. None of you could.

I can't believe it, but I'm with Xev on this one. This is nothing more than disgusting foreplay between a couple of lonely, sado-masochists

You can believe it. How long have you been watching and observing and waiting to post? It was only until someone as cranky as I, and of calibur to actually take on W, posted that you followed suit. Pfft.

gendanken:

*yawn and yawn*

Pfft.

15ofthe19

02-13-04, 12:38 AM

Whatever you need to believe Xev.

Your post didn't prompt anything from me.

I've been enjoying this childlike battle of wits from afar, and out of complete and sheer boredom, I decided to respond.

You give yourself too much credit.

WANDERER

02-13-04, 08:32 AM

gendanken

Wanderer's more like this though:

Ambiguous address > downplayed interest > honest frustration >attack > a final ironic mix of his yearn to expose and protect.

In short: ambifuckinguity galore.
You, on the other hand, are a seething fountain of frankness and directness.

Allright, we'll pretend you're truly interested and not just 'poking'. If nothing else this can at least serve as a cheap plug.
Let's

In isolation the human spirit is questionable and by questioning there's insecurity, a state where we all know the dominant feeling is "lack". And so, "attraction" or "need" comes not from what we see in others but from what they see in us, which alone we either don't see or question.
Welcome to the human race. So?

.......the natural reaction in a weak mind is to cling on to you since you fill that lack by you recognizing its worthiness. Without that recognition the weak mind remains aneimic without you.
That must be true since it is you saying it.
I attract weakness and you are much too powerful to fall into that gravitational spin.
You are nothing but strong. Absolutely so.
Like a rock in the ocean; wave after wave chipping away at her well crafted defences, year after year diminishing under the attrition.
Until what�s left? A solitary rock in the middle of the water proud of its hardness.

Enter sex:
If the woman is average, he's her lord.
If she is beautiful, he's the servant with bedroom privileges.
Two selfish ideas match...... throw in some genitals....... and there lies the 'magical' shit the laity calls 'love'. This is easy- there's no real thinking or logic involved.
Have you ever let go?
Have you opened yourself up to risk and possibility?
Being a control junky myself I can tell you, all the analysis and attempt at prediction becomes tiresome.
Then you just want to let go, let the universe take you where it may and just experience the trip.
It�s called dancing, dear, we Greeks know all about dancing like Zorba. It�s the Dionysian spectacle, the surrender to instinct for a while.
This is where time and space cease to matter and all that is are two bodies clinging to each other, craving each other to be completed, trying to fuse with the other in a union of trust and empathy we can call love, stopping thought and embracing the universe of the unconscious flux.
You cannot appreciate the beauty of a tree of a forest of a sunset if you are there measuring and analyzing and deducing while you question what you see.
You can only feel the ecstasy of living.
A lesson I�ve learned only recently.
The hardest thing to do? Letting go.

It is not as easy with the supposed noble, but the diet's the same. Meaning: I would tailor myself at any cost for that one glimmer of recognition or image you paint of me if only to feed myself if I'm lacking- which I'm not.
Its only after the ego is well fed that one seeks to share and be vulnerable again.
Who is not lacking?
Again the difference between one and another is a matter of degree.
Your absolutism is disingenuous.

And so now that I'm done, I too would not mind sharing with one almost like me if not better- and you've proved to me that you're not it.
You see know why I've said its made easier?
And you know how much my self-evaluation and my self-worth is dependant on your opinions.
But few things measure up to you, don�t they?
It�s how you deny yourself vulnerability and explain your indifference that hides your deepest fears and insecurities.
But I�m glad I�ve made things easier for you and the morons waiting for my �deconstruction� are gleefully awaiting your final verdict, your finishing blow, your dismissal of me so that they can take vengeance upon me for my past indiscretions and I cringe with anxious anticipation.

Of course this theory is all bullshit as soon as the genitals flare up- sex always wins in the end. Fuck biology.
And then biology is all there is.

And it can lick mine.

All I write is personal, colorful, intriguing and it sizzles with honesty.
I'll show the whole bloody world when I'm ready- not just a choice few.
I'm sure the world will care.
You still haven�t figured out how indifferent the world is. Only your own kind cares and they are always the few.

Again- the oddity in you.
Something strikes us as odd when it does not live up to our original expectations or diverges from our evaluations.
You know less of me than you think. I�ve made sure of that.
Do you think I take off my clothes in public areas? My nudity is reserved for private chambers for special individuals that will reciprocate my act of exposure and embrace me, imperfections and all.

At this point I don't think I'd doubt this burning need you have to share your supposed wealth. If we really are like sisters, I believe it....... but it seems we're only related by bad blood.

A great soul craving freedom and truth can't be stuffed with sermons and rhetoric at any point during its own kind dying to reach out to it. Mindgames soil the magic.
�Burning need?� Hardly; just need.
Life is a game. I only take it seriously when I�m faced with seriousness first.
I always wait for the other to make the first move.
All my girlfriends made the first move, all my friends opened up first and I did not betray their trust or mock their vulnerability. I embraced them as imperfect human beings and showed them my imperfections in turn.

�Sermons� and �rhetoric� is how I communicate my beauty and express my mental flexibility and artistic flare. Language is my art.
"Bad blood"? That's your label not mine.

Neither do I and so are mine.

I did my 'studies' in waiting rooms (hospitals, clinics)- the most fascinating place to dissect people, I swear. Quiet unsuspecting humans not knowing they're being watched- its the easiest thing in the world picking out the shy ones or the perverted ones, the repressed or Christian ones, all the walks of life neatly stuffed in a room for you to observe without having to play mindgames.

Women were easy, as always, but men so much easier depending on how I looked that day. Sweeeeeeet.
Join the club of 'human watching'.
Men are easier because they wear themselves on their sleeves and are simply proud to be themselves. Women play sexual Panda games and love using their pussies as trophies to be earned by the most worthy fighter.
I don�t fight for pussy, dear, it cheapens it and it�s not that precious a thing in the grand scheme of things. Just another hole if you think of it.

And can you understand that its this very thing you do that's severed the bloodline?
Understand you used it on the wrong person.

And can you see that despite knowing this I went ahead and revealed things I knew full well would expose me to ridicule? Its the only way to show noxious game players how fucking silly games are.
Yes and look at this blue-eyed imbecile with a 148 IQ '15ofthe19' who says:

**Laughs at Wanderer's feeble attempts at flirting with Gen**

I'm sorry to hear that Gen. You've directed your anger toward me in a few cases. I've yet to understand why. But whatever the reason, your anger is mis-directed. I'm not your enemy.

I have enjoyed your complete and utter deconstruction of W in this thread.

Not that it takes much to accomplish what you have done, but it's still been fun to witness.
See why I remain ambiguous?
This moron is there hiding behind you, hoping you�ll take revenge on me for being so openly hostile and so terribly accurate in my opinions of him.
You�re his last hope for retribution. your his warrior princess who he hopes he gets to fuck after the battle is won.
There are more �silent observers� rooting for my destruction, did you know? All of them male, go figure. It�s because of my penis, whereas your vagina makes you immune to this sort of thing. They�d rather dominate and fuck you than castrate and/or kill you.
How easy it is to be female in a world full of such idiotic males. They�ll bend over and kiss your plump ass if you wished it, because they hope they can then stick it to you.
They�ll give up everything, even dignity, because their penises are too demanding.
They know so little about women, about human nature.

But you say you "revealed" things?
Where in that cloud of euphemism and ambiguity did you do that?
Or am I supposed to prove my mental fortitude by deciphering the code?
You attack me for being ambiguous do you ever look at yourself?

Sounds..........sterile. You'll bore your audiance one day.
I need no audiences, only partners.

Nietzche found me some years ago and I swear to you you can still imagine him crying, shrieking, and laughing over his pages as he wrote them.

I think there's a tender part in you, but you're sick in it.
Not sick, only lonely and vulnerable. A human being, a true one.
It�s the part that bears the scars of past encounters. It�s the part I expose lastly and tentatively.
But don�t take softness for weakness. I can bury you and all these human male �wanabees� that fly around me looking for the soft part, that are now obsessed with my destruction and dream about hanging my balls up on the town square to prove their own manliness, because they have no other way to prove it and they feel ashamed because I rubbed their stinking faces in the mud.

And if you knew I approved there'd be an attraction- which you'll never know after we're done here. Simple human engineering.
Too bad then.
Maybe it�s time to move on.
Some distances can't be bridged.

But its not just those threads though- your 2nd entry in this thread turned my stomach. Its still there if you don't know what I'm talking about.

But concerning having to stoop now and then to rub shit in their face for being suckflies- understandable. Perfectly understood.
Sorry I didn�t live up to your exacting expectations.
Is that what you use to dismiss contact and to remain protected and secretive by not having to expose nothing to what you deem unworthy?
Been there, done that.

God I hate people.
Eventually you start not caring and thinking of them as part of another sub-species.
Do you blame a dung-beetle for eating shit?

Then I've been wasting my time. No matter- this may be my last post to you (depending) and its this, Janet's ugly boob, or mentrual blood.
Wasting your time for what?
Dismissing again, keeping others at a distance, justifying it through your high standards that only a few [I wonder if any] can ever live up to, pushing the world away, fearing contact because it entails risk and vulnerability, taking past experiences as benchmarks for future experiences.
You must have been hurt badly in the past.
Oh well.

All those games and words, words, words.

Its a wonder you never get confused in the cackle. My.
How do you do it?
I�ve �Laid my cards on the table� as BigBlueHead would put it, I�ve posted opinions and exposed myself to criticism and ridicule and I�ve fought back. I may keep some cards closer to my chest, but they are only meant for private rooms and private conversations and not for open galleries full of prying eyes and wicked souls.

Make up your mind, will you? Personal or not?
You decide for me.

And honesty has backfired on me many, many times as well but I must be a gullible kitchen wench since it hasn't taught me to be a miserable liar.

Not exactly calling you one- keep your panties on. You know what I mean.
No, I think you are calling me one.
I can hear them giggling now even if they can�t completely follow what is going on here.
You just can�t settle on if it�s a fact or not and you don�t want to make hasty conclusions prematurely.
If you think I�m a poser or a fraud, as many of my �fans� would have it, then let time decide. I am what I am.
Fakery can only hide for so long before it is exposed and hypocrisy is self-destructive. It implodes under the pressure of its own bullshit.

What the devil makes you think I'd be surprised to find that nobility is "not yet dead"? Think I've only read about it in books? Why *should* I be surprised if I'm sitting here perfectly sound and teeming with life- I'm looking right at it. There's only one other person in this world who's as good as the good in me- but that's another story.
Imagine that, only two people on an entire planet noble enough to be respected by you.
What an exclusive club that is.
Now that�s elitism, baby.
I�m sure club doors open up wherever you go, but are you sure it�s because of your �supposed� nobility and not your tits and ass?

You, I'm still unsure of.
What?!
I thought I had been dismissed. I�m sure after this post I will be though and the crowd will cheer at your obvious victory over me.
But what happened here? Not sure myself.
The imbeciles will say I�ve been put in my place. Ah, how wonderful it will be smacking them around some more.
Pussy-power, it can never win but it can never be defeated. It hovers there over all proceedings like a mist that clouds reason and awareness.
Penises, on the other hand, stand up straight in the wind, like trees on a hill of grass. They either stand or fall.
Their roots are all they depend upon and the sun and the air but they are also such easy targets for sharpshooters from the distance and fire and bugs boring holes in them.
Holes just sit there waiting for unsuspecting victims to fall in and devour, trees must prove their prowess daily, they must pull life around them and claim their piece of hill.
Sorry was that too ambiguous?

True enough. But if this "other" is what I think it is and anything like you, something tells me the one 'tapping' is already this Disappontement you've grown to expect and not so and so. I could be wrong, but I doubt.

Ha.
The �HA� gives you away.
Are you always that pessimistic and cynical or are you expressing a secret hope here?
Maybe your self-condemnation to solitude makes you wish it upon everyone.
My disappointments have been left behind, I expect so little these days and demand even less. I can't speak for the other, that's why I'm sceptical and careful not to become overconfident.
That�s why I�m willing to take risks nowadays. But you�re not on that stage yet, you�re still embracing solitude and introspection, still learning about who and what you are and coming to terms with your imperfections and weaknesses, still building walls around earth to call it yours.
Then what? Then you'll want to give it away and become light again, become a wanderer and not a squanderer.

::fuming::

Ambiguity? You'll never see it and why?

Answer:

"But I�m poking little girl, just for the fun of it.
No need only curiousity.
Mankind is my study. What else is there to do?"
My carefulness insults you? My honesty bothers you?
Sorry I never jump into frothing lakes head first and without first looking for any hidden rocks that may break my legs or worst.

Xev

Excuse me?
I'm witnessing two people trying to fuck each other in some of the most disingenous styles that I've ever seen and you lump me in with a blinking twit like that just for sniggering? Now I'm offended.
No this is great, from the Wanderer's avunculism and calculated rudeness to your impassioned protests that you're "not that sort of girl!" and veiled references to your physique. Do you really think fountainboy could appreciate this?
No matter how much it pains me to say this: My penis isn�t THAT long.

gendanken said:

Ask yourself exactly when it was that any references to my 'physicque' came up and if you can't find it, I'll gladly point it out for you.
She can see so much, except herself. Or maybe she's just covering her tracks and regretting having ever made them. Two steps forward, three steps back. Make sure you don't leave new tracks going back.

I love feeling insulted, it's so degrading and yet you're so awfully proud about it.
Couple pages ago, can't be bothered searching. Don't worry - if you hadn't implied, he'd have made all manner of snide implications about how your intellect is an overcompensation for not being a bubbly, bouncy piece of ass.
You know me so well. I�m flattered.

15ofthe19

I'm sorry to hear that Gen. You've directed your anger toward me in a few cases. I've yet to understand why. But whatever the reason, your anger is mis-directed. I'm not your enemy.
See how males prostrate themselves in front of females?
If this attack was directed at me you wouldn�t be so�.pleading.

I have enjoyed your complete and utter deconstruction of W in this thread.

Not that it takes much to accomplish what you have done, but it's still been fun to witness.
�Deconstruction�!!!!
You have yet to see my structure idiot. Your 148 IQ can�t see well through those blue eyes of yours, brown ones are more accurate.
But if it�s so �easy� then why don�t you give it a try.
I�ll love destroying you, you pathetic little twit. I can better you both physically and mentally, you�re nothing but a little fly, without his fly master now, buzzing around trying to get noticed, trying to establish a myth.
Do I scare you little one, does my penis offend you?
Are you dismayed at the attention I get?
Do you envy it?
Little secret: When you need something you are less deserving of it. You become desperate and it shows.
Post something, a single thing, anything of interest or worth responding to.
Post a single instance of specificity, for instance, that�ll get my attention. You non-generalizer you.

I don�t even think you fully understand the proceedings here. Your linguistic artistry is not capable of comprehending the full spectrum of meaning.
So caught up in your nationalistic proud American idealism, you can�t even see your own stupidity.
Haven�t you still figured out that for an aware mind and an acute eye you are nothing more than a bug? An imbecile trying to prove he isn�t one and the more he tries the more he proves the opposite.

I've been enjoying this childlike battle of wits from afar, and out of complete and sheer boredom, I decided to respond.
But how can the witless enter a battle of wits?
They re condemned to spectator status with a few jeers and heckles to make sure everyone knows they are there, when nobody cares.

gendanken

02-13-04, 12:51 PM

Xev:

pfft...
* raises eyebrow *

Oh? In that case, Xev goes:

I love feeling insulted, it's so degrading and yet you're so awfully proud about it.

Riiiiiiiight.......

Your........ 'angst' is betraying every last hair on your body.

Wanderer:

Welcome to the human race. So?

You asked for my theory and I gave it. Could have been bullshit, could have not been, could have been gendanken talking out of her ass but they're her own observations.

Have you ever let go?
Have you opened yourself up to risk and possibility?
Being a control junky myself I can tell you, all the analysis and attempt at prediction becomes tiresome.
Then you just want to let go, let the universe take you where it may and just experience the trip.
It’s called dancing, dear, we Greeks know all about dancing like Zorba. It’s the Dionysian spectacle, the surrender to instinct for a while.
This is where time and space cease to matter and all that is are two bodies clinging to each other, craving each other to be completed, trying to fuse with the other in a union of trust and empathy we can call love, stopping thought and embracing the universe of the unconscious flux.
You cannot appreciate the beauty of a tree of a forest of a sunset if you are there measuring and analyzing and deducing while you question what you see.
You can only feel the ecstasy of living.
A lesson I’ve learned only recently.
The hardest thing to do? Letting go.
Look up there. All that you just said there.......bingo.

I'm no rock.
I'm no beacon.
I'm gendanken, and gendanken can be just as vulnerable as you can. I'd like to think that between the both of us here I've been the honest one.

Lastly:

And you know how much my self-evaluation and my self-worth is dependant on your opinions.
But few things measure up to you, don’t they?
It’s how you deny yourself vulnerability and explain your indifference that hides your deepest fears and insecurities.
But I’m glad I’ve made things easier for you and the morons waiting for my “deconstruction” are gleefully awaiting your final verdict, your finishing blow, your dismissal of me so that they can take vengeance upon me for my past indiscretions and I cringe with anxious anticipation.

I don't know any of that- it was a theory......dear. Who said this:

"It is better to have an incomplete or even an erroneous opinion that is ones own than to have one primarily based on other people’s observations and efforts.
The first demands a spherical and in depth comprehension of the subject and a keen awareness of detail, the second only requires an average intellect and a good memory. "

Your absolutism is disingenuous.
That's exactly what I thought of you- your absolutism was what turned my stomach in your first or second entry into this thread.
Blowing on someone else's hot water after scalding yourself on your own milk.

We could both be wrong about each other but I know myself more than anyone: I'm far more flexible than philosophical laws would allow. I used to think this was sloppy.

The “HA” gives you away.
Are you always that pessimistic and cynical or are you expressing a secret hope here?
Maybe your self-condemnation to solitude makes you wish it upon everyone
Negetive.

I only know the tap and why it taps and what will become of that tap when she taps that way.

Lastly:

See why I remain ambiguous?
This moron is there hiding behind you, hoping you’ll take revenge on me for being so openly hostile and so terribly accurate in my opinions of him.
You’re his last hope for retribution. your his warrior princess who he hopes he gets to fuck after the battle is won.
There are more ‘silent observers’ rooting for my destruction, did you know? All of them male, go figure. It’s because of my penis, whereas your vagina makes you immune to this sort of thing. They’d rather dominate and fuck you than castrate and/or kill you.
How easy it is to be female in a world full of such idiotic males. They’ll bend over and kiss your plump ass if you wished it, because they hope they can then stick it to you.
They’ll give up everything, even dignity, because their penises are too demanding.
They know so little about women, about human nature.
Very much so.

Which is why this 15of19 is a fucking moron for calling whatever the fuck we've done here 'deconstruction'.

Never mind that we're being civil here.
Never mind that I've let on more than I should have but did anyway.
Never mind that we're not sitting here wanting to gouge each other's eyes out like two Tiassas.
Long story.

Never mind that this if anything has been far from a fucking flamewar but this blue eyed mook wants to sit there crying wolf.

If you want to sit there thinking I've been some kind of warrior princess then do so- you're a moron. If not, let his kind sit there thinking as much and benchwarming with their fingers crossed for your so called 'destruction'. That's not what this is about.

You bury me- don't think so, impossible. No one can. Me bury you, no need.

What's happened here is simple: midgames have swallowed you whole.
Nobody is 'dismissing' you.