The true question of religion and god

ISDAMan

08-25-99, 06:05 AM

FyreStar,

I thank you for your honesty. I have little experience dealing with
agnostics. I'm simply trusting that the Holy Spirit will give me to
say what should be said. I, of course, will back up that expression
of trust, that is to say, I will continue in trust, with prayer for
you. I cannot look so negatively upon you as to say that you missed
something or have been flawed more than other men. In actuality, the
issue is not how much you have seen but, how you have responded to
what you have seen. I will point you to an exact passage in the Bible.

Acts 8:26-39

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip,
saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down
from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of
Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the
Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to
Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read
Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and
join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him
read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should
guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was
this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb
before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away:
and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I
pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some
other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the
same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a
certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth
hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all
thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still:
and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch;
and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water,
the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no
more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

What happened here is that a man from a far off people only had a
tiny amount of truth given to him. How it came his way, who knows.
This truth was confounding to him. Never the less, he responded to it
well. He recognized that this was supposed to be truth. He had no
proof of that. The deep longing of his heart was to understand this
thing. God, seeing his response to the light he had been given, was
faithful to send him more light. He sent one of His trusted to preach
the full Gospel to the man. In the same way, He deals with everyone
around the world. You have a conscience given of God. Everyone knows,
without being taught, that lying, steeling, and murder are wrong. It
runs far more deeply than those simple three examples. How you relate
to the light that you have been given is how God determines weather
or not He will bother sending more your way.

Romans 2:11-15

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall
also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall
be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before
God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law,
do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the
law, are a law unto themselves:

 15 Which shew the work of the law written in
their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their
thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Hebrews 4:12-13

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and
sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing
asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a
discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not
manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the
eyes of him with whom we have to do.

He knows what He's given you. He knows how you have chosen to respond
to it. There's nothing you have missed. You have had it all along and
known it. Through repetition of wrong choices, walls against God's
law, written on every mans heart, are erected and presumed
indestructible. This is why faith is not a tangible thing to be
grasped. It requires that you trust in what you clearly know to be
there, yet, have absolutely no proof of. As far as the fact that
there are so many religions out there to choose from, I leave you
with these two points. The man considered to be the father of
strategic warfare, a Chinese man ( I do not recall his name )
affirmed that spies are of extreme importance in war. Some spies are
converted and lured in of the foe. Some spies are home grown and sent
out to plunder from the foe. While, yet, most interestingly, some
spies are sent out in hopes that they will be caught so as to add
confusion. There is a war going on right now that we cannot
physically see. Agents of the enemy are everywhere. The results of
their actions against their foe, being us, is evident from the slums
to the White House. The leader of our enemy is more than aware that
humans are easily confused. Secondly, Jesus repeatedly referred to us
as sheep. It's interesting to note the similarities.

1) Sheep are foolish, plum stupid even. If one falls into a
ditch and is removed, if the ditch isn't covered over, he'll fall
right back in it. Having seen his plight, so, with no explanation,
will another. Sound anything like us repeating the same things we
know to be wrong?

2) Being fearful, sheep need a strong sense of belonging and
guidance. Sheep will panic at the slightest sign of danger. They will
even follow other sheep off of a cliff. Think that humans are far too
evolved to do that? Explain the Heaven's Gate Cult. Explain the daily
trading on Wall Street. Explain how a whole nation of people
will stand poised to pull all of their money out of the national
banking system as they hang on the every word of their Finance
Minister or the like. It's happened all over the world and in this
country.

3) Sheep are filthy. They have no capacity to keep themselves
clean. If you've ever seen the back end of a sheep out on the farm
and in day to day life, you'd have no recourse but to believe. How
many times has every man tried to clean up his own act just to do the
same things all over again? How many times have men transferred from
one bad habit to another? How many times have we come to the point of
regret because the plan we planned for ourselves went so foul? This,
too, the whole comparison, is true of Christians. Without following
the Good Shepherd ( Jesus ), who leads in front ( As in the
middle-Eastern method of shepherding -- For all you sheep herders
out there ), we are lost and left to our own devices.

I look forward to conversing with you soon.

All verses excerpted from The
Complete Multimedia Bible, King James Version

Copyright (c) 1994 Compton's
NewMedia, Inc.

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . Come to Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed) for Christian web developement.

Interesed Party

08-25-99, 02:58 PM

FyreStar,

You stated:

"I am a nonreligious atheistic agnostic. I have never been involved in religion in any way; I have never even been inside a church except for a wedding and a choir performance. I have read parts of the bible for research purposes."

I would disagree with your own self-assessment of being non-religious. Everyone is religious to one degree or another. You can read religiously or attend concerts or even drink religiously.

Our religion simply reflects our acquired viewpoint about the world, life or accepted understanding about the nature of the universe. You definitely have a religion - and it is founded on something about which you feel a conviction.

Your beliefs are probably as foreign and non-sensical to theists as theirs are to you. But you seem to convey a certain certitude that YOUR convictions are founded on something more solid and factual than theirs.
I assume that you are not certain about the existence of a "God" but tend to lean toward non-belief(ergo "atheistic agnostic").

Perhaps it would be easier to discuss the theists beliefs if there was an understanding of what your beliefs are founded on.

ISDAMan

08-25-99, 03:42 PM

Interesed Party,

I'm just wondering. Where do you stand?

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Lori

08-25-99, 05:32 PM

My cause was an abortion. The effect, my faith. Now my cause is my faith, and the effects are miracles and salvation.

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God loves you and so do I!

Flash

08-25-99, 06:11 PM

Come on... where do you get faith???
I know... faith cometh by hearing..and hearing the word of god..right? The word of
god brings about faith. Yet, all of you have
said that this word was only INSPIRED by
god...BUT written by MAN. hmmmmmmmmmmmm
I suppose one could make theirself believe
anything if they focused on it enough. So
then..this means I am tricking myself to
believe in something. Once I do that...I
begin to act out on it... thus, I could say
then that I was a christian because of faith.. So where does truth come in????

ISDAMan

08-25-99, 06:30 PM

Flash,

The truth comes out when God separates the wheat from the tares. You are correct. There are false Christians. Judas was the first. There are now and will be more. However, I choose not to allow the infractions of others steer me away from what is right. Just as I will continue to belive in and practice gun ownership, knife ownership, and hammer ownership, despite the evil doings of others with these things, I will continue to follow God despite the falseness of some among us. I will not be held at bay by the fear of failure. Though I'm sure you would not affirm it, that is what your stance boils down to,... the decision to make no decision to affirm any hope because it could lead to failure.

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

ISDAMan

08-25-99, 06:44 PM

Flash,

Oh yeah, to answer you other question, you get faith by witnessing and doing. The inventor of the parachute would never have had faith in it had he not first witnessed the properties that went into it's development. In everyone's life there are some things that we would never belive that we could do if not for having been experienced in so doing them. Where faith really comes in is doing it a second time. The first sky dive is easy. The second one, when you know what's coming, is the one that requires the most faith. You express faith just by stepping out into the ocean that the water will not sweep you away. You have faith in something you have observed or experienced. The grace of God can be experienced. I suggest that you look at the conversation that Vicki and I have been having under, "I Belive", for more on what I mean by this.

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Lori

08-26-99, 10:29 AM

Flash,

You don't get faith by hearing the word, obviously, or you would have it by now, don't you think? I heard the word plenty and ignored the shit out of it for years before I made the horrendous decision that I did. The faith came from realizing that even though I could rationalize the hell out of what I did, that it didn't take away the pain. From realizing that there IS a right and wrong that I or you DID NOT have anything to do with determining. I just couldn't deny it anymore. Then when you start praying and communicating with Him, you find that it works. He listens and brings about change in your life that is absolutely unexplainable otherwise (yes, even if you're an astro-physicist).

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God loves you and so do I!

Flash

08-26-99, 06:23 PM

Lori and Isdaman,
First, there is a scriputre in the bible
that states faith cometh by hearing..and hearing the word of god. You all claim the
bible is the word of god..it's "alive" well
there ya go. Hell, I know there is a right
and wrong..but I believe that all stems back
to what society has taught us.
You know.. Lori, you stated that god would
communicate to others... I am sorry but
BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!
Know what...If that was true... I SWEAR ON
MY LIFE that I'd kneel and say... here I am..
BUT.. I also know what I have sought out.
I think Lori, you became a victim of A LOT
of shit in your life..therefore you also
wanted someone or something to save you
from it... ta da... you find religion.
What better answer right???
sorry..out of time...get back later.

Boris

08-27-99, 04:40 AM

Wait, Lori. You mean to say that you went and hurt yourself by aborting a baby to whom you were emotionally attached. And then from the fact that you felt hurt, you deduced absolute right and absolute wrong??? Now I am missing something.

Though I guess doing things you feel are right and not doing things you feel are wrong would indeed be somewhat rewarding, right? So where does God come in, again? (And why the heck is it the Christian God?? Why not an Indian spirit guide? Oh....maybe it's because you were spoon-fed Christianity all your life, as opposed, to, say, Taoism?!)

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I am; therefore I think.

bedlanam

08-27-99, 05:37 AM

flash,

listen to truth and (your sense of ) faith will become apparent. suppose one could allow themselves to see greater truth (belief); it means that what is not truth becomes just as apparent. if one continues to choose a limited sense of objectivity, then the limits are the premise of the 'ends'; greater objectivity reveals a sense of open-mindedness (possibility) which does not mean that everything we are objective about is correct, it just enables the 'observer' to realize circumstances/'facts' for what they are.

: )

ISDAMan

08-27-99, 08:28 AM

Flash,

I'm not sure of how much exposure you have had with children. What I can tell you, what I can prove, what I have seen, and what anyone having raised a child has seen is that children know right from wrong without being taught. Everyone knows that you don't have to teach a child to lie. No one has ever had to write a book on how to raise a disobedient, immoral, self centered, thief, and a liar of a child. I look back on the days when my little brother was just a toddler. I was there for his very first steps. It amazes me how I had archived my full height of 6'2" then and he's a 13 year old threat to pass me by now. I also look back in amazement at how before he could speak, that boy could lie!!! I know. That's a mighty powerful claim. Sit back, relax, and I'll amaze you yet. We had a cupboard in the kitchen that extended from the floor to the ceiling and had no doors. On the lower shelves we kept canned goods since they were durable and low risk. My little brother was incessantly enamored with all the colors and shiny edges. These cans still presented a minor threat of pain if dropped on a toe. Besides that, it was important for him to learn about boundaries. Thus, we were keen to steer him away from the cupboard whenever we caught him there. Sometimes, we even enforced it with a pat to the bottom or the wrist. Never was he harmed, but, writhed in anger. In disobedience, evident by his new practice of looking to see if the coast was clear, he continually returned to the cupboard The treatment was the same. The result was the same. He was angry. Ever determined, he began to experiment with new tactics. While in the living room, he'd plainly observe the adult's preoccupation with the television set. A huge grin would break out like a rash across his face. He'd tear out running and uncontrollably giggling. His shangra-la nearly in sight, he'd hang a sharp left to the point of almost defying the laws of physics. The excitement on his face, induced by a canned goods high that's beyond explanation, would instantly shatter just one second later. The word, "NO", uttered from my very lips, would come crashing down on his spirit as though it were the voice of the Creator. Having complete understanding of the word, he'd immediately walk away. The first few times, the very frustration of it all would bring tears to his eyes. I can imagine him thinking, "I WAS RIGHT THERE!" Soon those tears gave way to simple laughter and, "looks like I'm busted", smiles across his face. Knowing that I, his nemesis, his ruler in effect, was swift to all his ways, he devised his ultimate plan ever. Remember, the boy still has no power of speech. He only has some understanding therein. Compounding upon the idea that the adult must first be distracted, which tells you that he had awareness of his own senses and had deduced that ours were in kind after his own, and the knowledge that adults might still perceive his actions, he came up with an excuse for his very activities. It was a brilliant plan considering that the boy was only around a year old. The scheme was simple. First, as always, he'd wait for just the right moment. I also wonder of some of the running he did around the house was to build his stamina for future operations. Second, arriving at his objective, he'd plant the decoy. He'd immediately immerse himself in the enjoyment of canned goodness. As was usual, the FUZZ was not far behind. Now, the lie that he had at some point preconceived in his heart was thrust into action. At the very first instance of the detection of an adult presence, his right hand shot like a rocket. With flawless guidance and in the blink of an eye, he clinched his bottle and presented it to me drawn in tightly to his body. The fearful half-smile, the shivering jaw, the wavering eyes, the short choppy breaths, and the tremble throughout his entire body gave testament of a message far beyond the one he would have presented, which was, "Look!!! I'm innocent. I was just getting my bottle." The message was clear. For the first time, just as I was there to witness his first steps, I too was there to witness his first lie. In time, the physical signs that he was lying passed. The lie did not. It took far longer to teach him that he was not going to get away with it. By that time, of course, he was into many other things. Society can teach us of only what it has from the start. The conscience you have been given comes from the very God that created you. The evil you ( we all ) are inflicted with, comes from the very devil that so many of this world also deny.

Quote:
Lori, you stated that god would communicate to others... I am sorry but BULLS***!!!!!!!!! Know what...If that was true... I SWEAR ON MY LIFE that I'd kneel and say... here I am. BUT.. I also know what I have sought out.

Answer:
I mean you no disrespect, but, it is of great arrogance to think that when you put forth an effort that God must respond on your time table and in a way you pre-prescribe way or that He must even respect it at all. God is neither a coin operated faith dispenser or a dial-a-miracle operator. If you do not respond to what you have been given, He makes no obligation of Himself to give you more. He may. He may not. You are angry now. I can tell. Perhaps you feel slighted by God. Perhaps there is jealousy because others around you have peace and you want it too. I'm sure that you are confounded by and in some ways lead astray by those that are Christians and some that claim to be Christians whom it is that display everything contrary to what you understand that a Christian should be. Let me give some comfort in saying that I too am so confounded by these. I am not perfect. I rely on Jesus to help me minute by minute to be more focused on His righteousness than I was the minute before. I know the man I could be without Christ. I also know what it is like to go astray and to think that I can live contrary to the truth of God. Furthermore, I know the passionate glory of having been taken out of my own filth of my own design and brought back to fellowship with God. I still know hardship to this very day. Pain and suffering still come my way. Jesus is not some narcotic that numbs you to the pain. In fact He calls us to share in the pain of others. I'm grateful that now when I hear of tragedy in someone's life that I can feel and share in some of their burden. When I was gone astray, I became cold and uncaring to almost everything that did not please me. I would advise you, if you really want to understand what and why this is, that you spend actual time around mature Christians. If you privately send me your city and state, I'll be more than happy to forward you the name of a solid church for you to visit. If you do not want to attend, I can assure you that the pastor or one of the elders would be more than happy to visit with you on your terms.

Quote:
I think Lori, you became a victim of A LOT of s*** in your life..therefore you also wanted someone or something to save you from it... ta da... you find religion. What better answer right???

Answer:
I find it very interesting, that in our society, it's o.k. to find salvation from alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling, sexual addiction, uncontrolled fear, and on and on and on. These are things we typically treat with a twelve step program. What they all have in common is that the administrators of these programs have realized that if the person has not hit bottom, if the person does not recognize and admit that this thing has ruined his or her life, and if the person is not willing to submit to being brought out of the dominion of this thing, then, the person cannot be helped! As log as the person still clings to one more drop, one last chip, just a quick hit, a refreshing thought of those past actions, or the slightest desire to take the easy way and cringe, the person is beyond help. They will put the person back out on the streets. In societies eyes they are viewed as good. How, then, is it that, when a person hits bottom and realizes that her sin has ruined her life and that she is in bondage to it, she should be considered weak? Read Luke 10:21-22. The easy way is to lie and say, "I'm o.k. and nothing's going to tell me different." It is the mark of a fool to refuse to recognize flaw. Her lack of perfection is a testament to the fact that, "YES", she is still human. She has the same capacity to obey and disobey as ever. The difference is that she is no longer an orphan. She, now, has a Farther that will bring chastisements and rewards her way. She has a Father that will guide her and interact with her in Love. I'd say that's a ton better than a pamphlet, a diploma, and a lapel pin.

You don't know how I wish I could type the words, "Peace Be Still", and bring the calm into your life that Jesus brought to the waves and the wind. It can't be done like this. Again, I advise you to seek direct interaction with those that have it. I'll be more than happy to help you. You'll never know how close you are to your goal if you give up. Read Luke 11:5-13 and Luke 12:15-31. I would also advise you not to expect some rush of feelings as God does peal away the scales from your eyes. There may be. There may not be. Most cults prey on the unknowing by inducing them to expect some special feeling as proof of divinity,... even those that call themselves Christian. This practice of a dependence upon feeling is false. Feelings are a product like sneezing and a runny nose is a product of something greater. You don't have to have it to have the something greater though. All feelings tell you is how you are perceving reality. They tell you nothing about reality. That's where living in faith come in. The feeling of the moment can drive you insane. You, by your own language, are obviously torn. It does not have to be this way. I will continue to pray for you.

God Bless You, Flash, And All That Read This.

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Mock

08-27-99, 09:58 AM

Fyrestar

Let me try to answer your question from my perspective. Maybe this will help you. All my life I have posed questions to myself about life, the meaning behind it and tried to find the answers. I read widely on religions and tried to make sense of the world and my place in it. During all this time I was in contact with Christians who were practising their faith. I could see that they had found something concrete in their faith, and were generally very positive and happy people who really recieved great joy in helping others in any way in which they could. But because I was naturally quite cynical and had also met Christians who were morally questionable in my eyes, and on top of that all the reading I had been doing convinced me that Christianity was maybe just one of many religions the world had to offer and religion generally seemed a man-made concept in which man tried to understand the inexplicaple and mysterious world around him. I thought the Eastern religions ( ex: Buddhism ) were quite cute in their essential goodness and moral standing. And besides they had been around for so long and had millions of adherents. So I followed their ways as a basic lifestyle for most of my life. Yet I never felt completely convinced. But I could not convert to Christianity as my head was full of man-made reasons for not being able to believe. ( Bible contradictions, the mess the world is in ... where is that loving God, the horror of the Crusades, etc ) It took a period of disaster in my life that made me understand that I certainly was not the master of my destiny, to once again pick up the Bible. ( how weak !! )
But the strangest thing happened, A feeling of great calm and peace came over me as I read and I realised that I did not have to face the world alone. All the disasters in my life were not the end of the world. I could find peace in Christ. He could carry some of my burden or at least help me make sense of this trying time in my life ( yes ... unfortunately it took a difficult time in my life to believe. But so what ! I did not get there by accident ) But the strangest thing was, I could not explain the calm and peace I felt. My intellectual self said ... Whoaa ... what`s happening here ? I should be drowning my sorrows in drink ! Instead I discovered my God. Me the cynic, the one who rejected Christianity on the grounds of repetitive anti-Christian cliches
that men are so fond of. What I am trying to say is that I discoverd my Faith at a time when I least expected it. When for the first time in my life I allowed myself to read the Bible without any pre-concieved ideas, but with the approach of a small child, with an open mind. And Wham ... I`m still there. So that is what I suggest you do. Just read the Bible ... without any expectation and with a totally open mind. I could always find many reasons not to read the Bible, but luckily for me I did try again before it was too late. A lot of things about the world that I could never understand has also fallen into place. And no amount of intellectualising could ever have brought me to where I find myself spiritually today. And now I also understand why Stephen Hawking can explain most everything except the very instant of the Big Bang. Thank God.

Plato

08-27-99, 11:54 AM

Mock,

you say that you have to read the bible without any preconcieved ideas, do you really think that is possible to do with a book that has been on the bestsellers lists for 2000 years ?
Besides, reading it in a moment of turmoil while you are desperatly searching for some steady ground really does not fit the picture of the approach of a small child I'm afraid.
I was raised as a catholic (as are the majority of my countryman) and had the obligated 2 hours of christian education. There they spoke of different ways to talk to God but they explicitly said that God was not a fireman or an ambulance who is only there when you most need Him.
The strange thing though is that very soon I left the path of catholisism, I was may be 9 or 10 years old but I had to keep on studying it because it was required to pass your schoolyear. That was not the reason why I came to doubt though, as a matter of fact I found catholisism and other religions very interesting but in the same way as I find the behavior of an electron interesting, simply as a study object not as something to life and die with. The thing that made me an atheist is the wonder I find in he universe and how it keeps on amazing people. Just when you think you have figured it out, something totally unexpected comes along and screws everything up. You see, it can't be that simple, I look upon religions as theories of how the para-physical world looks like. I'm quite convinced though that when we die nothing will be as planned, we are all in for a very big surprise !!

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

[This message has been edited by Plato (edited August 27, 1999).]

ISDAMan

08-27-99, 03:29 PM

Plato,

Did you read my last post here? The second to last paragraph should answer one of your questions.

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Flash

08-27-99, 06:39 PM

Isdaman,
Ok, you have put me in a spot.. I'm not
really sure how to respond ... I have sooooooooo many f'd emotions right now...
on one hand I want to YELL...on the other..
well who knows what... that is a lot to digest. I really appreciate your time and
input. I know I sound like I am "yelling"
perhaps I am.... I hate this whole god/christian concept... I can't help it. It's how I feel!!! I have tried..many times
.. I have even pretended to be a christian..
I taught sunday and weds night classes in
chruch..was also a leader of a drama team I
started!!!!! Does that make anyyyyyyyy sense???????? Well, it doesn't to me!!
I feel ashamed for doing that..but shit..
for once the one thing I'm good at..I don't
believe in!!! And the kids..damn..I just
want to help them soooooo bloody much. Some
parents can be assholes, ya know?
I am being truthful as I can be... in all
of that..I NEVER ONCE had a sign or communication with god!!!!!! I know you say on his own time...but how f'n long does it
take??????????????? You'd think somewhere
in there he would say something!!!!!
I know you say give you three things and you
would explain them... I'm saying to STILL
look back..hell I don't know what subtitle
it's under..but where I put the scriptures
at.... there are many examples of contradictions... not ONE person could
DIRECTLY explain them to me!!! I think I
had made a vaild point in them! I still
think you are knowingly avoiding those.
I have my bibles packed... so I am unable
to look up the scriptures you have told me
to. I am moving in a week..so when they
get upacked I will...just to see what teh
heck you are saying.
I don't know what else to say..except..I have
tried it all man! I have also searched the
bible out... remember here I taught out of it.. LOL I am sorry..but I am telling the
truth... it was a f'n big time STOP IT DOESN'T ADD UP for me!! Read my scriptures
again... don't avoid them..tell me why one
says one thing and why one scripture says
the total opposite!!!

ISDAMan

08-27-99, 08:46 PM

Flash,

This is just to tell you that I have a detailed response to help you in the works right now. Please, be patient. It won't take too long. Also, I got angry at you and posted a short response to you in some of the other lines. What I said was true. However, it seems that perhaps you really have read through the Bible completely at least once. I can see that you are hurting. The words I spoke to you in that post may be true but, I withdraw the anger. The first thing I would tell you do, despite your lack of belief, is to pray to Him. I'm sure you remember how Jonah never wanted to go to Niniva. He did not agree with God. He acted like God didn't know what He was talking about. The funny thing is that God told him to go anyway. The lesson is that God never requires you to agree with Him. It's better if you do. However, He wants your faith. He understands that for humans, it sometimes takes straight forward obedience ( doing under duress like a child ) to get that faith. Be obedient and pray. Be honest. Yell if you have to. He knows what you're thinking. You can't shock Him. He WILL deliver. He has not let me down yet. If you don't trust Him, trust me. He will deliver. Be patient. A more detailed post is coming.
With Love, and Prayers

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Boris

08-27-99, 11:06 PM

ISDAMan:

You make an interesting point about rehabilitation. It would indeed make sense to get a drug addict off drugs, or to reform a criminal. However, do you think it would make sense to take a heroin addict off heroin by replacing the drug with cocaine? In the same vein, why do you think it makes so much sense to resort to religion in times of distress? Why should it be reasonable to jump from an extreme of frustration to an extreme of self-delusion?

Life can only be hard to bear when one acquires tunnel vision and loses the grand picture. How could you ever get depressed about your life if you kept in mind the enormity and complexity of the universe, and the resultant insignificance of all the things that bother you? Religion offers only another version of tunnel vision, an escape from reality -- and a mental escape is certainly one way to cope. However, why should it be the right, or the best, or the reliable, or even an acceptable way?

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

bedlanam

08-28-99, 05:24 AM

plato,

you are well adjusted.

Mock

08-28-99, 08:31 AM

Plato

It is very difficult to read a 2000 year old religious text without any preconcieved ideas, and that is how I read the Bible for most of my life. Like just another religous text. Looking for contradictions, looking for reasons not to believe, looking for similarities with ancient myths so that I could classify this Book as just another mythology with a deluge/flood as an act of the Gods to punish man for his sins. This is how I used to read the Bible.
As I tried to explain in my earlier post, I then read It again " at face value " trying not to let negative thoughts enter into my reading. What happened was that I was succesful, and the true meaning that was there all the time, jumped out at me. This I think was Divine intervention. There is a very simple message of salvation in the Bible
that will not become apparent if you over intellectualise your reading. You have to give up nothing, not pay a cent, pass no tests, pay no financial dues ... to enter into God`s Kingdom. The way is through your heart. Simply accept. And I found a calm. I cannot explain this calm in any other way than God`s personal intervention. The fact that I found this calm during a period of personal crisis is neither here nor there. The fact is I found it. Nobody was more suprised than me. I was the greatest cynic. How can we explain this tangible peace and calm without resorting to the spiritual. All I am trying to say is that I never expected in my wildest dreams ( and I have been through many trying times before ) that I would Believe. Moreover I have yet to find anything in the realms of science, nature, biology or any other discipline that does not live comfortably alongside a belief in Jesus Christ, and the Bible. In fact in my opinion it just gets better.

ISDAMan

08-28-99, 10:06 AM

Boris,

If you know anyone that is addicted to servanthood and has an unstoppable drive to continue to serve despite the fact that 95% of people despise and ridicule them, please, send them my way. I need an employee. When your $250 watch is busted, for best results, you either go to the people that made it or you go to the people that the makers designates for repair. How much more valuable is your life? Religion is one of the many false repair shops that people like because they get to set the rules. Turning to God and His ways is quite different. He's the real thing. You, I would endeavor to say, are the type of person that would, in this example, attempt to fix the watch on your own with no training from the manufacturer or whom they authorize. Your words. "Life can only be hard to bear when one acquires tunnel vision and loses the grand picture. How could you ever get depressed about your life if you kept in mind the enormity and complexity of the universe, and the resultant insignificance of all the things that bother you?" One of the most common overstatements of a man's position is one wherein he makes himself out to be in control. Weather by your actions or the power of your thought, that is what you are stating. For the child of God, peace and joy can be had because of the knowledge that our Father IS in control, that our Father Does have a plan to use all things for our good ( even those things that hurt for a time ), and that, over all, His Glory will stand high and none else can stand beside Him and steel any of that Glory. When you trust in yourself, you trust in a man that cant even see what's in his shoe or around the corner. On top of that, even if he does peek around the corner, he looses sight of where he's at. He never even has a clue of what's going on behind him. I agree with you that mental escape is a way that men do go. Trusting in your own obviously limited powers qualifies perfectly. Does that help you understand?

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Lori

08-28-99, 03:02 PM

Boris,

I wasn't emotionally attached. That's the whole point, genius. That's the whole rationality for doing it in the first place, you can't get emotionally attached to a "fetus", but you can to a baby. Like there's a difference? Well, at the time, I thought that there was a difference, and I was wrong. Believe me, I had no warm fuzzy thoughts about the pregnancy, no little booties flying around in my head. I had had an affair with a college freshman and cheated on a fiance that I didn't even want to be with, and I didn't know which one was the father. Ok, so now explain the pain.

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God loves you and so do I!

ISDAMan

08-28-99, 03:10 PM

Hay there Flash,

Remember how I told you that I like to boil things down to get to the
meat of the matter? Well, that's just what we are going to do,
together, here Flash. You've apparently posted some pretty important
questions to you. I'll look for them. First, we need to get some
things straight. It's time to face facts. No matter what those
questions are, they are nothing more than a retaining wall holding
back mountain of pain and hurt. No matter how many bricks in the wall
I crumble, you would only replace them. The prudent thing, we both
know, is to take on that mountain of hurt and pain you have got pent
up inside of you. It's all up to you Flash. If you choose to hold on
to it, it will kill you. If you let it go, as dangerous as that may
seem, it will release the burden and pressure that's weighing you
down. Who hurt you Flash? How did this whole thing start? You know
what I mean. Who caused you to adopt the idea that it's better not to
trust? I know you said that you only pretended to be a Christian,
meaning, you never really trusted Jesus Christ. Is that true or is
that just a statement after the fact to help hold yourself together?
This is an important point to discuss.

John 17:8-11 ( Jesus Speaking )

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou
gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I
came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but
for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and
I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these
are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine
own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

When you taught in the Church and lead the drama team, whose power
were you trusting in to get the job done? Was it yours or was it Christ's?

Galatians 6:7-9

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for
whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the
flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the
Spirit reap life everlasting.

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in
due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

What's your relationship with these people now? Where have you gone
to ask for help about your own personal feelings? Is there anyone
that you share your inner most self with? And what of your family,...
particularly the relationship you had with your mother,... with your
father,... when you were a child? Do you feel that you were loved
unconditionally as a child? Did your church family love you
unconditionally? Can you say that in your life you have ever known
what it is to be loved? If, "YES", what has become of that
love? Most importantly, how do you love?

Luke 6:31-33 ( Jesus Speaking )

31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do
ye also to them likewise.

32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank
have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you,
what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

<<< I am being truthful as I can be... in all of that..I
NEVER ONCE had a sign or communication with god!!!!!! I know you say
on his own time...but how f'n long does it take??????????????? You'd
think somewhere in there he would say something!!!!! >>>

Congratulations!!! You are not a schizophrenic. God does talk to His
children through the Holy Spirit. However, I can tell you for a fact
that if I ever heard an audible voice that was not proceeded by
Gabriel's horn and followed by being changed in the twinkle of an
eye, I'd run to the nearest Christian psychologist I could get to. He
has said all that He has to say, in words, in the Bible. People who
claim to have gotten a new word are either crazy or lying.

I John 2:7

Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but
an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old
commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

and Jesus said in Matthew 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false
prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if
it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If you want something tangible, as a Christian, you must first trust
Christ. Then, and only then, will you be able to physically
experience the glory of serving others. A person's natural bent is to
serve one's self. That's why I asked you about whose power you were
relying on when you were active in the church. Now, read that verse
from Galations again. Did you think that, perhaps, if you did a
little more or you did a little better that you would finally hear
from God? The good things done as a child of God are not done to keep
some defined level of Holyness. That reduces the gift of God down to
works. The good things done, are, in fact, done out of love and
expression of what God has done in the child. Anything else is an
adulteration of God's Plan. I'm left to wonder how you were
discipled. I would guess you to be a fast self learner. I'm also that
way. I know what it's like to want all the information now, or, even
better, ten minutes ago! Again, I have to stress that you deal with
God on His terms and His terms only. What you presumed to be a lack
of relationship with Him may have been just that. Had you truly
surrendered your life to Christ? If, "YES", were you daily
yielding to Him? Were you faithfully trusting in Him and doing in His
name knowing that He has shown in His Word that He would deliver? God
never calls anyone to follow Him blindly. Look at what Jesus said in John
14:10-12

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and
the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that
believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater
works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Now, as far as the, "greater works", aspect is concerned. I
can't tell you weather He meant that ( greater = bigger and better )
or ( greater = added to or more numerous ) or both. I'm just happy to
have my name written in the Lambs Book Of Life and the right to call
upon, talk to, and serve my Father any time. Therefore, I can go
anywhere and do anything in the name of Jesus Christ and have no fear
or doubts about what the worlds reaction may be.

Colossians 2:2-9

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit
together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of
understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of
the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you
with enticing words.

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I
with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the
stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the
Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in
the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of
the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the
Godhead bodily.

Flash, you have become like the example Jesus gave about the seed
that tried to spring up on the rocks. It doesn't have to be that way.

Luke 8:13

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they
hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a
while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Christ can re-plant you at any time. He can give you a Christian home
and family. He can restore the years that the locusts have eaten
away. In fact, if you turn to Him, that is, repent, all that is a
promise from God. He has never let you down. You have never let Him
hold you up. Trust Him. He knows what He is doing.

With Love and Prayers,

ISDAMan

P.S. - Alcohol will solve nothing for you.

------------------------------------------ All Verses Excerpted from The Complete Multimedia Bible -- King James Version
Copyright (c) 1994 Compton's NewMedia, Inc.

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

FyreStar

08-28-99, 10:32 PM

ISDAMan -
I appreciate your response. There is usually so much hostility or defensiveness in these discussions that it is impossible to gain understanding of other views. I understand what you are telling me, but the fundamental reason that I cannot act upon it is that I do not seem to share your awareness of a higher power. I practice complete self-honesty; I won't delude myself into thinking that things are perfect by ignoring a touchy subject or telling myself something I *know* to be false. Your statement, "It requires that you trust in what you clearly know to be there, yet, have absolutely no proof of." is a perfect definition of faith, but I simply don't know of anything "there". Also, I'm not clear on your analogy to sheep.. do you mean that we are all being led, and if so, then are we being led by god?

FyreStar

FyreStar

08-28-99, 11:07 PM

Interested Party -
To clarify; I have never subscribed to any way of worship, nor have I had belief in any type of god. In this way am I athiestic. However, I cannot say that there isn't such a figure because I see no way to tell the difference between a non-interfering presence and no presence at all. If I seem to convey a certitude that my beliefs are founded on something more solid and factual than theists, its because to my viewpoint, I do. Nobody can point to a definable or observable god and ascribe their beliefs to it. That is why the concept of faith is required for religion. On the other hand, what I was taught, and later questioned and refined on my own actually had causes within the realm of human existance. Hope this helps,
FyreStar

FyreStar

08-28-99, 11:22 PM

Mock -
My reservations involving religion have nothing to do with other people, firstly. I know people of many faiths and of no faith which are morally suspect, and to me that suggests a problem with humans, not beliefs. When people tell me such as you did about what they gained from religion, I examine my life and see whether or not I have those things. I know I am not alone in life; I have friends, family, and I know that there are enough decent people in the world that I continue to meet those whose differences I can rejoice in. In regards to disasters.. If I can do something to avoid them, I will; if not, there is little sense in worrying about that which I cannot change, so I accept it and move on. Also, neither would I "drown my sorrows in drink". Aside from the repulsion I feel towards voluntarily giving up control over my actions, it is much more efficient and healthy that I work them out and move past them, wouldn't you agree? As to the bible, I think that in most cases, it does an adequate job of presenting morality to its readers, but I don't see what makes it literal truth. And that is the point of my original question. In any case, I thank you for your response, and look forward to others.

FyreStar

Flash

08-29-99, 03:00 AM

ISDAMan,
I am sorry to have mislead you. There
is not any pent up pain or hurt. I am a
normal person...just like you.
People can only let others hurt them if they allow it.
I do not have any trust issues.
I do not have a relationship with the church
I attended because I do not live in that state any longer. So there is no need.
I do not have any problems with my parents...
if you got that because of what I wrote about
sometimes parents can be assholes ..I was
referring to the kids at the church I attended...that's all.
I appreciate your concern...I really do.
I am being sincere. Trust me though..there
is not any need. Again, I am fine and normal. I just differ on the christian
beliefs ect... that is all.
Sincerely,
Flash

Boris

08-29-99, 06:54 AM

ISDAMan:

Your words. "Life can only be hard to bear when one acquires tunnel vision and loses the grand picture. How could you ever get depressed about your life if you kept in mind the enormity and complexity of the universe, and the resultant insignificance of all the things that bother you?" One of the most common overstatements of a man's position is one wherein he makes himself out to be in control. Weather by your actions or the power of your thought, that is what you are stating.

That is not at all what I am stating. Inasmuch as my personal choices go, I do indeed imagine that I am the one in control. However, with respect to the rest of the world around me, I harbour no illusions. Indeed, I have no problem with the possibility that there is no plan to our existence, and I don't see why you have such a problem. We are sentient beings, and it is up to us to find a purpose. I enjoy that perspective much more than that of a marionnette in the hands of an all-powerful controller. But it all is only so much philosophical nonsense.

What I am saying is that the assumption of God explains nothing, and improves nothing. The world out there is as much out of our control as it would be either way.

What I was talking about is that people tend to assign too much significance to the things that bother them in life. And while an imaginary friend by the name of God is one way to obtain comfort, another is simply to realize how insignificant our troubles are.

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I am; therefore I think.

ISDAMan

08-29-99, 07:22 AM

Flash,

Have you looked back at your last post? Do you recall the e-mail you sent me when you were drunk? Anyone can see the overwhelming stress in your posts. I find the change in your style of post astonishing. It's almost as if you've been shocked. Yes, I do realize that you have been interacting with Lori in a friendly way for months here. I also hate to see someone, especially a believer, subject to harassment. I'm kind of the big brother type. On top of that I have little patience. That's something that is a constant effort with me. I've always been quick to do battle. I didn't mention your parents because of your quote. I mentioned your parents because of clues you left behind. It's just the same way I deduced the answer to that question we discussed in e-mail. Someone can't be fine and normal and living a life they believe to be false or have no trust in. You could take the. "I'm out of it now", stance, but, that won't justify you either. You expressed clear ongoing distress because of your past actions. That means that you are not fine. You can hold it in you want to. It's just going to rot your liver, your pancreas, your eyes, and your soul. Flash, if no one else in this world will love you enough to tell you this, I will. You have a problem! It's out of your control. Get help.

With Love and Prayers,

ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

ISDAMan

08-29-99, 08:38 AM

Boris,

First, you mixed your quote and mine. Second, you just affirmed what I told you. That is exactly what you were saying. You just had no idea of it. Now, dealing with the statement, "I have no problem with the possibility that there is no plan to our existence", I'd have to say that even for an atheist / agnostic, that's a mighty tall stretch. You spend your whole life making the purpose your own and whatever you want it to be and now you say that there may be no purpose? You sound confused. You need to pick a side. You affirm my assessment of you by further stating,"We are sentient beings, and it is up to us to find a purpose."

Let me point you to one of my past posts to JMitch:

You have a choice as weather or not to take another breath. You can do it or you can drown in the tub or do any number of things. None of these things was given so you could kill yourself. Yet, by your own choice, you can. Even more, you only have access to the things God first provided you. You can create no new matter with which to halt your next breath.

This existence belongs to God. The interaction He allows us to have through our own choices is often confused for power. For Satan, it is the same.

To expound on this so that you may fully understand, hear this. God is in control while at the same time you do have a choice. Sounds like a paradox. I know. I'll break it down for you. You're a self-empowered kind of person. I'm sure you enjoy driving yourself in your own car. Wouldn't you agree? We all like the freedom to go our own way. On top of that, we crave a personal style and a certain sense of self. Well, if you want all this, you have to buy a car. No matter how many choices of makes and models, customizations and amplifications, or even built from the ground up designs can be picked from or conceived, you are bound by certain laws. First, there are laws that govern the intended use of the vehicle. There's laws that govern performance and handling, safety, and even public application because of where you live. You have all these choices. You are full of freedoms. Yet, you have no power to extend ,add to, or subtract from any of these laws except the laws of application made by man. I'd love to see a VW Bug pulling a 10,000lb tandem rig. You are making the same old common mistake of viewing your freedom to choose and create applications for what is pre-existing with actual power and control. So, in short, you do have a choice, but, none of them are fully your own. Try applying your theories to life in crossing the highway. I'd love to see the control you wield on the world around you then. To you I'd say, "the assumption that there is no God explains nothing, and improves nothing." You are left even more in the dark and at the will of others. Of course, by your model of existence, everyone else must have just as much of that 100% control that you do. In your model, 100% times any number always equals 100%. In the true model, there's only 1 with 100%. Lastly, you said, "What I was talking about is that people tend to assign too much significance to the things that bother them in life. And while an imaginary friend by the name of God is one way to obtain comfort, another is simply to realize how insignificant our troubles are." Now, just what might be your benchmark of insignificance? With everyone having their own 100% to control, that leaves the benchmark up to every man. And if it's some other man's benchmark that, because you don't score as highly as he does on some kind of test, that he can take all that is yours, including your wife and child, what problem should you have with it? After all, it's insignificant. You see, when you follow God's way, the way He gave us in His Word, not what's popular at the time or happens to seem right, there is a hard line drawn in the sand. There is right and wrong! There is justice! Your denial of that fact is irrelevant. You will still be convicted.

With Love and Prayers,
ISDAMan

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Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited August 29, 1999).]

Boris

08-29-99, 09:22 AM

ISDAMan:

You see, when you follow God's way, the way He gave us in His Word, not what's popular at the time or happens to seem right, there is a hard line drawn in the sand. There is right and wrong! There is justice! Your denial of that fact is irrelevant. You will still be convicted.

Ok, I give up. Where's the part where I denied the existence of right, wrong, or justice?

Of course, by your model of existence, everyone else must have just as much of that 100% control that you do. In your model, 100% times any number always equals 100%.

100% control? Of myself, or of the cars on a highway? I claimed I have full control of my choices. I never claimed I have full control of my life. If that's too hard to understand for you, please ask before you go and write another page full of nonsense.

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I am; therefore I think.

ISDAMan

08-29-99, 10:36 AM

Boris,

You seem to be confused about the points you are making. You said,"100% control? Of myself, or of the cars on a highway? I claimed I have full control of my choices. I never claimed I have full control of my life." What is your life if it's not comprised of your choices? Your choices are made to yield given actions and outcomes. Therefore, you attest that you have control over the things around you. If your life cannot be defined by your actions, then, you are not alive. Again, I say, pick a side and stick to it. By your own words, "Inasmuch as my personal choices go, I do indeed imagine that I am the one in control. However, with respect to the rest of the world around me, I harbour no illusions.", you are clearly trying to walk on both sides of the street. You want control when it benefits you and the lack of it when the burden is too great to bear. What you are professing is the true tunnel vision and escape from reality.

Quote:
Ok, I give up. Where's the part where I denied the existence of right, wrong, or justice?

Please, read my last post again and then clue me in on who sets the benchmark and who enforces it. I'd like to see your definition of this.

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Boris

08-29-99, 11:10 AM

ISDAMan:

You really do have a knack for failing to understand the obvious!

What is your life if it's not comprised of your choices? Your choices are made to yield given actions and outcomes. Therefore, you attest that you have control over the things around you. If your life cannot be defined by your actions, then, you are not alive. Again, I say, pick a side and stick to it.

...

you are clearly trying to walk on both sides of the street. You want control when it benefits you and the lack of it when the burden is too great to bear.

My life, and everybody else's, is composed of personal choices and individual behavior (which are under individual control), and external factors which are beyond control. I make a choice of what I write next. I do not make a choice of when I get hit by some car on the street. It's really that simple. Some things are under control, and others are not. And I can't believe I am explaining such obvious things to an adult.

Please, read my last post again and then clue me in on who sets the benchmark and who enforces it.

You managed to completely miss that point as well. I was not talking about setting limits, rules, benchmarks, or guidelines. What I am saying is this: suppose somebody ambushes you in a dark alley, beats the crap out of you, steals everything you have, spits on you and rubs your face into the dirt, and then breaks your neck so that you are paralyzed for the rest of your life. Pretty heavy stuff, right? Now, imagine yourself looking back at that incident from the center of galaxy M-31 100,000 years from now. Gee, one little animal out of 6 billion of his kind has been totally screwed over on some no-name planet in just another galaxy God knows how long ago. Whoopty do. At any moment in your life, you may get into a world of pain. However, it will allways be true that: 1) compared to some people before you, you are really pretty well off, 2) on the big scale of things, it don't mean jack, 3) it's only a big deal if you are willing to make it so. Jesus said to always turn the other cheek. And it is easy to see why from my perspective. It doesn't mean that one should never fight back, or that there is no right and wrong. It does mean, however, that one who viewes existence through a wide-angle lens would never get overwhelmed to the point of helplessness and listlessness by absolutely anything.

I don't know much about Buddhism, but I believe what I say should roughly parallel their beliefs. Perhaps that would give you a little context for comprehending my words.

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I am; therefore I think.

Mock

08-29-99, 12:11 PM

Fyrestar

Hi, I don`t think it is possible to prove the "literal truth" ( verbatim ) of the Bible. Or necessary. Although there is much archaeological evidence to support the Mosiac authorship and the historical reliability of the Pentateuch.

What I was trying to explain in my last post was how it became a "literal" ( real ) truth for me. The Bible became a Spiritual truth for me, and in this way it is a "literal" truth in my experience.

I am trying to show you through my own experience that the Bible can become a real, Truth through one`s own Spiritual awakening.

My best historical argument in support of the Bible as a "literal truth" would be in showing It`s uniqueness in the integrity of It`s message, compared to any other historical work or documents.

Here is a brief summary. The Bible is a Book that was written over a 1500 year timespan, over 40 generations, by over 40 authors from peasants to philosophers. It was written in a variety of settings, during times of peace and war, on three continents and in three languages. ( Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek )
It`s subject matter includes hundreds of controversial subjects, which could create oposing opinions when mentioned or discussed.
Yet from Genesis to Revelation there is harmony and continuity on these subjects. There is one unfolding story - "God`s redemption of man"
From the time the Message was first written down to our present age, the Bible has been, translated into hundreds of languages, edited and printed millions and millions of times, yet the integrity of it`s message remains unchanged. This is unknown in any other book, known to man. This must constitute Divine inspiration and intervention.

If you are interested I can forward details of further reading on the above matter.

In Christ.

bedlanam

08-30-99, 02:12 AM

"one who viewes existence through a wide-angle lens would never get
overwhelmed to the point of helplessness and listlessness by absolutely
anything."

does that include the acknowledgement of the soul ? or does this narrow the lens a bit ?

Boris

08-30-99, 02:34 AM

It involves the acknowledgement of everything that is actually observable. It does not involve 'acknowledgement' of fantasies, although you are free to have them as much as you wish (just as long as they do not contradict reality, in which case you have some hard choices down the line. (The evolution vs. creation debates come vividly to mind...))

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited August 30, 1999).]

ISDAMan

08-30-99, 05:02 PM

Boris,

QUOTE:
My life, and everybody else's, is composed of personal choices and individual behavior (which are under individual control), and external factors which are beyond control.

:) It's good to see that you are picking a side on this.

QUOTE:
*I was not talking about setting limits, rules, benchmarks, or guidelines.

They've got to be there. It's fundamental to any philosophy. I asked you to explain yours to me. Could you please do so?

QUOTE:
suppose somebody ambushes you in a dark alley, beats the crap out of you, steals everything you have, spits on you and rubs your face into the dirt, and then breaks your neck so that you are paralyzed for the rest of your life. Pretty heavy stuff, right? Now, imagine yourself looking back at that incident from the center of galaxy M-31 100,000 years from now. Gee, one little animal out of 6 billion of his kind has been totally screwed over on some no-name planet in just another galaxy God knows how long ago. Whoopty do. At any moment in your life, you may get into a world of pain. However, it will allways be true that: 1) compared to some people before you, you are really pretty well off,

Good Point.

2) on the big scale of things, it don't mean jack, 3) it's only a big deal if you are willing to make it so.

Bad point. 1) If you're busy getting your butt kicked, what do you care about the possible perspective of someone 100,000 years from now. Anyone holding to this has a serious problem with what is actual reality! I'm sure that even any secular psychologist would tell you this. Protecting yourself via disassociation is a far cry from being protected by association with the Living God of all Creation. Sure, it's possible that neither one may step in to stop the fury. However, only one of them can make the promise to use it for your good. Moreover, you don't seem to be practicing this belief system you profess. In your past few posts, you were sure to pass what seem to be insults my way. Does that happen when things don't get to you or under your skin? Your words,"You really do have a knack for failing to understand the obvious!" and "If that's too hard to understand for you, please ask before you go and write another page full of nonsense." Now, I know that, at times, I can be a bit too straight to the point. If ever I made you to feel as though I was insulting you and you in turn felt the need to retaliate; I apologize. 2) God has been known to deal very seriously with those that are the source of evil to others. If He has a problem with it; so do I. Don't forget how God dealt with those that picked off the stragglers of the Israelites as they traveled through the wilderness. Also, Jesus had some pretty strong language for this type of thing in Matthew 18: 6-11

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

QUOTE:
Jesus said to always turn the other cheek. And it is easy to see why from my perspective. It doesn't mean that one should never fight back, or that there is no right and wrong. It does mean, however, that one who viewes existence through a wide-angle lens would never get overwhelmed to the point of helplessness and listlessness by absolutely anything.

Not so. Look at Luke 6: 27-35

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the onecheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

The statement Jesus made about turning the other cheek was clearly based on Love. It was not based on some idea that you or anything really doesn't matter in the big picture. Jesus gave this example in order to show how far the expression of real Love will go.

Jesus points out that the strength to avoid worry or helplessness and listlessness is found through this kind of realization below.

Matthew 6: 25-30
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

We are instructed to worry about nothing and to pray about everything. This is where the strength of the child of God comes from. Through your examples, you place the strength back on the person for being able to overlook such a heated encounter. The Bible makes it clear that man has no such power of his own to tap into. Disassociation only makes for a good front. However, it is important to still keep perspective of what is happening today.
Matthew 6:34
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. or in today's English,... Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.(New King James Version)
If it didn't matter and was not to be minded because in relation to something greater it was insignificant, Jesus would never have called it trouble. God takes account of even every hair on our heads. He deals with us on a personal level. If what happens to us is important enough for Him to be involved, there's no question about 100,000 years from now. It's important.
---------------------------------------------

All Verses Not Marked Excerpted from The Complete Multimedia Bible -- King James Version
Copyright (c) 1994 Compton's NewMedia, Inc.

Peace, Love, and Prayers,
ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Boris

08-30-99, 05:25 PM

ISDAMan:

I was not discussing Christianity's claims in the post you critiqued, so much as I was proposing an alternative outlook, this time based on plain reality. I don't care what the Bible says about human capacity to cope without God or prayer; I claim the opposite, and indeed I not only claim it but practice it as well. And it works. And I believe it can work for others. And I believe that religion does far more harm than good. And I believe we are all better off without it.

The point is, that one should go on with life, and fight for ones values, and defend against harm, and ultimately nevertheless try to live in peace and happiness -- but one should never give up, because nothing in life can ever be significant enough to warrant surrender. (i.e., one can always die later -- so why not live another day, and live it to its fullest, while you still can?)

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited August 30, 1999).]

Flash

08-30-99, 05:51 PM

ISDAMan,
How the heck do you get from my past posts
ANYTHING about my parents??????
Second, You have just arrived here..how is
it you THINK you know soooo bloody much about
me????????
I was being polite in my last post to you..
I have NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO F'N PROBLEM
WHATSOEVER!!!!!!!!!
I do not know where you come off with that..
the only thing I know is because I am not
one of those f'n blind sheep that just follow
and say.."oh yeah, Jesus..he seems like the
answer" Come on... you do not really expect
everyone to believe that stuff... and it
seems to me that you are the one with the
problem because of those of us oppose your
views. Why is that??????? Cannot people
see things different?????
You do not know me...therefore, how the hell
can you sit there and judge me????????

ISDAMan

08-30-99, 08:33 PM

FyreStar,

Sorry, I took so long to respond. I agree. These debates can get a bit heated. I've even seen some that are quick to stoop to name calling. I understand though. I too can be quick tempered. God has been working on me with that one since I was a child. I'm quite pleased with the results. I can't wait to see the rest. Anyway, regarding your comment of, "I understand what you are telling me, but the fundamental reason that I cannot act upon it is that I do not seem to share your awareness of a higher power. I practice complete self-honesty; I won't delude myself into thinking that things are perfect by ignoring a touchy subject or telling myself something I *know* to be false.", I'd first like to say that it's good that you could see where I was coming from even if you don't share the same awareness of a higher power. I'm sure that you can accept the fact that you do have a conscience. Wouldn't you? I doubt that anyone could ever produce a conscience detecting device though.

QUOTE: ( To ISDAMan )
Also, I'm not clear on your analogy to sheep.. do you mean that we are all being led, and if so, then are we being led by god?

Well, the direct point, in this case, was to show a need for a leader. You have, in fact, touched on a very very important point that we are all, in fact, being lead. According to the Bible; some by God and some by Satan. In a way, like good and evil, there's only two choices. Neutral does not exist where the orientation of a person to God is concerned. God shows that He is the source of all good. All things not of Him are not good and as such are evil or sin. Satan, being the father of sin, is the one to whom all sin and evil is orientated. This is true even if you are a "good" person that tries to do nice things whenever you can. The Bible calls our good works filthy rags and says that all have fallen short of the glory of God. Sin is not just going astry. Sin is like an arrow being shot that never even makes it as far as the target. Therefor, our orientation is without a good leader.

QUOTE: ( To IP )
Nobody can point to a definable or observable god and ascribe their beliefs to it. That is why the concept of faith is required for religion.

Miracles, the very acts of God, can be seen and experienced. Do I think that many normal, yet, unusual things get passed off as miracles? Yes! No matter weather it's a miracle or not, if it's provided for you, it's a provision from God and He should be thanked for it. Here's something real I can point to when I was nine years old. I had one of those old style dirt bikes where the breaks were tied in with the peddles and it came equipped with a long banana seat. Anyway, like every other boy, I liked to show off my speed and strength. I let another boy, Poppy, ride. I'd race up from behind, as he peddled his heart out, grab hold of the looped bar at the back of this banana seat, and yank as hard as I could. I was amazed to see him peddle like a cartoon character and get nowhere. This went on for several minutes. Then, on that faithful moment when I'd pool together all my talents, something went drastically wrong. My ankle instantly twisted. The pain was like noting I had ever before experienced even without attempting to place my foot on the ground. Needless to say, trying was no help at all. I instantly hopped into another friend's first floor apartment. Of course, I was crying and whining as any little nine year old boy would do. I threw myself down on the bed in the back room and tried to get a good look at the damage. It was already beginning to swell and the slightest touch made me it feel as though it would explode. I could even feel the painful tension of the elastic in my tube socks adding unwanted compression. Everyone outside was too enamored with their own goings on to have paid full attention to me. I had paused to hop in place and tell my aunt that I had twisted my ankle, when she asked about my behavior, but, she, being only six years older than me and always at my house, was more like a big sister. She just went on with what she was doing. At this point, I knew that this was far beyond any simple twisted ankle I had ever known. Never before had I seen swelling and so quickly. It had to be sprained. Now's the point that I realized that it's not all that bad. I do have a way out of this mess. God, I knew, can do anything. So, all I said, looking up while crying and whining, was, "God, I don't know much about You, but, I do know that You can do anything. God, can you please fix my ankle?" Now, the most important thing wasn't the words I used or the fact that I was a child or that I came from A Christian household. In fact, my family and extended family had almost no contact with any church at all. The important thing was that I had been given a certain amount of truth and I believed. I had faith. To tell you the truth, I wish I has such unfettered and pure faith today. The human experience of life can take its toll on any relationship,... even that with God. I don't want you to think that God was obligated to do anything. His will is beyond my comprehension. The fact is that, for His reasons, He did. As I just looked up and waited, I kind of expected some kind of exciting event, the first thing that I noticed was that I was no longer crying. So, I touched my, now, dry cheeks in amazement. A bit stunned, I worked my way cautiously down to my ankle by hand. No pain from a slight touch. No pain from removing the sock. No pain from a heavier touch. No pain at all! I wrenched that bad boy around as much as I could to test it out. There was only one question that remained. Why was I still wincing and whining? I took some effort to try to calm down. It's just that with all the Thanking I was giving to God, I got even more excited. I had an almost unbelieving grin from ear to ear. I hopped on that ankle and there was not even the slightest sign that there had ever been a problem with it. There was no more swelling and no more pain at all. I got my foot gear back on and hot footed it back outside. Excitedly, and with all my fervor, I proudly and loudly recounted to everyone that, "God fixed my ankle!!! God fixed my ankle!!!" They laughed at me. :( Some paid no attention at all. I told them again, "Yes He did!!! God fixed my ankle!!!" They still laughed at me. They told me that I had imagined the whole thing. It didn't matter though. I knew a small bit of truth before. Now, through God's grace, I had more. Little did I know what He had in store for me down the road in life,... but that's another story. OK, so, what does this have to do with the lives of the average man? After all, everyone doesn't have these experiences. Well, to that I can say. This paints a perfect picture of what happens in the world. God does a great thing and people, the same that were too callas to care about anyone else but themselves in the first place, push it aside as assign it no value. They even throw up excuses against it. However, if I had come running out of the apartment complex, in the same way, only, this time yelling, "There's a man with a gun inside!!!", everyone would have paid attention and everyone would have believed me without question. Somehow, when you yell that there's a God that Loves you, it doesn't garner the same respect. No one ever wants to hear good news. Just watch your local news. Observe yourself for a while. When you hear that someone at work did something bad for personal gain, do you question it at all or do you accept it like most? When you hear that someone at work did something good for no personal gain, what's your honest reaction? The natural tendency of man is to turn away from God. That includes any good thing. Also, I just thought I'd throw in that it's only natural for this to compound itself. Just take a cross section of TV. shows in this coming season and compare them with ones from just five years ago. Keep going back by increments of five years and you can easily find an increase of bad and a decrease of good. I know. That was getting off just a touch. Though I'd throw it in though. Getting back. God can be directly experienced to every man on Earth through all that He has created, miracles and blessings, and His children whom it is that are supposed to show forth what He has done in their lives. I take great shame in saying that part of the reason that you have not experienced these truths is because many Christians of today have taken up with ideals not of God. I, at times, can be included. If a fireman decided not to show up for work one day, it may not have any impact on any civilians life. Then again, it might. I continually remind myself that if I am not serving God through directly helping others, I'm likely to be leaving someone out in the cold. If the world has no light it's not the world's fault. Christ said that Christians are the salt and light of the world. So, really, we have a good bit of blame to bare about it too.

QUOTE: ( To Mock )
I know people of many faiths and of no faith which are morally suspect, and to me that suggests a problem with humans, not beliefs.

That makes you a rare find! :) There's not many that do that. Most people, including most here, make up their minds very quickly about all of Christianity because of the actions a single Christian. In fact, many lurk in the background just waiting to pounce and point out the obvious humanity of those with faith in God. I thank you that you cannot be counted amongst these.

QUOTE: ( To Mock )
When people tell me such as you did about what they gained from religion, I examine my life and see whether or not I have those things. I know I am not alone in life; I have friends, family, and I know that there are enough decent people in the world that I continue to meet those whose differences I can rejoice in.

In all honesty, do you belive that you are complete? Are you still searching for something, on any level, to fill a void within you? Are you comfortable with the idea that you might die today? What do you think will happen?

QUOTE: ( To Mock )
In regards to disasters.. If I can do something to avoid them, I will; if not, there is little sense in worrying about that which I cannot change, so I accept it and move on.

I'm with you there buddy.

QUOTE: ( To Mock )
Also, neither would I "drown my sorrows in drink". Aside from the repulsion I feel towards voluntarily giving up control over my actions, it is much more efficient and healthy that I work them out and move past them, wouldn't you agree?

Now's the part where I have to ask, "What's you standard for defining what is good and what is bad?" Is it something that is floating or situational or is it a constant? Also, control is a major factor in relating to God of which I'm sure you are aware.

QUOTE: ( To Mock )
As to the bible, I think that in most cases, it does an adequate job of presenting morality to its readers, but I don't see what makes it literal truth.

In order to crack that nut, and it is a tough, but, crackable one, we first have to come to a common understanding of each others understanding of God. As I take it, you don't accept Him or rule Him out. Am I correct? To get a better grasp in where you are coming from, could you please post some of those shortfalls in it being literal truth? I could, without that, end up going in all sorts of directions from archeological data to other corroborating evidences. Thanks. Up until now, I belive I have been trying to address this on more of an interpersonal level. If I'mm missing you somewhere, please, let me know.

Peace, Love, and Prayers
ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited August 30, 1999).]

ISDAMan

08-30-99, 08:37 PM

Flash,

I'm not looking to get into a let's make each other mad contest. I never judged you. I asked you questions based on comments you made in posts and e-mail.

Peace, Love, and Prayers
ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

ISDAMan

08-30-99, 08:59 PM

Boris,

QUOTE:
I was not discussing Christianity's claims in the post you critiqued, so much as I was proposing an alternative outlook, this time based on plain reality. I don't care what the Bible says about human capacity to cope without God or prayer; I claim the opposite, and indeed I not only claim it but practice it as well. And it works. And I believe it can work for others. And I believe that religion does far more harm than good. And I believe we are all better off without it.

Then, please, let me point out that you just stated a belief based on experiences others have not had. Moreover, you expressed that, if adhered to by others, it would improve their lives. You just placed yourself on the same playing field by having affirmed a religion.

QUOTE:
The point is, that one should go on with life, and fight for ones values, and defend against harm, and ultimately nevertheless try to live in peace and happiness -- but one should never give up, because nothing in life can ever be significant enough to warrant surrender. (i.e., one can always die later -- so why not live another day, and live it to its fullest, while you still can?)

This, above, is a synopsis of your doctrine.

Peace, Love, and Prayers
ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Boris

08-30-99, 09:20 PM

ISDAMan:

Yes, in very loose terms I am promoting a new religion (and behold -- I'm actually in the correct forum! ;)). However, notice that my 'religion' is not on the same playing field, as you seem to be concluding. For example, I do not claim ultimate knowledge, I do not utilize anything supernatural, I am perfectly willing to admit that I am wrong about any of my claims if appropriate evidence surfaces, I do not argue for damnation to the heretics, and I assume as little as I possibly can. Moreover, my 'religion' is based entirely on what I (and anybody else) perceive around me -- not on shady proclamations from 'divine sources'. It is certainly a religion, as it makes a rather unverifiable assumption that nothing supernatural exists. But, that assumption is not critical to the rest of my 'doctrine' -- as it would clearly stand even if something undeniably supernatural actually provides evidence of itself.

What I argue for is an end to the old-style religions with their fixed mindsets, absolutist beliefs, and broadside directives unsupported by reason and taken on faith. I would like people to become far more open-minded than they are on average at present, and I want people to become far more aware of the deeper insights stemming from their very surroundings. At the same time, I want people to be critical and reasonable about the stances they take and the goals they set. And I honestly believe we as a civilization have a chance to achieve all of these goals.

Now, I made a lot of statements here of the form "I believe". Any one of such statements is debatable, and I am eagerly awaiting a challenge so that my beliefs could be put to a test.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

ISDAMan

08-30-99, 09:31 PM

QUOTE:
Moreover, my 'religion' is based entirely on what I (and anybody else) perceive around me -- not on shady proclamations from 'divine sources'.

Does this include the criminally insane? ;)

Two questions:

1) Where does your religion do away with faith?

2) If God did you like He did Saul (Apostle Paul), would you then turn to Christ or still go your own way?

Peace, Love, and Prayers
ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited August 30, 1999).]

2+2

08-30-99, 09:37 PM

My experiences tell me also that mankind would be better off without so many of us
having an invisible friend, who is watching everything EVERYONE does, REMEMBERING all this
behavior, and JUDGING it all later.  Plus this invisible friend despises what some
folks, who are living, believe is going on here, and it is okay to hate those people
outright (they are all going to hell anyway).

No doubt, that if anyone thinks that they really know what is going on here, they are
mistaken.  Just describing what happened to ourselves today in a realistic way, is
hard enough for most of us.  Believing that we are being watched seems to me to be a
little paranoid...that someone is listening to our THOUGHTS, sounds schizophrenic to me.
  I think that this kind of thinking allows people to disrespect others thinking, and
bad behavior follows a bad mind.  

I find it hard to believe that people believe in a life after this one.  I think
that they hope that there is an afterlife, but people who believe it are going to be like
the Heavens' Gate people.  But the point of view that there is a better life detracts
from the reality of the amazing fact that we humans are the apogee of  life forms.
  We should treasure eachother for that reason.  We alone have TIME.  We
share time...and living, and words.  
</body>
</html>

Boris

08-30-99, 09:52 PM

ISDAMan:

1) There are different degrees of 'faith'. It is one thing to take an assumption of materialism on faith (actually, as it turns out, it's a pretty good working assumption!) It is something altogether different to take on faith the Tower of Babel story, or the Ark of Moses story, the Genesis story, or the Resurrection story, or any of the gazillions of stories of Christianity (or in fact any anscient religion whatsoever). It is something altogether different to take an assumption of idealism on faith, but in addition to it take on faith an entire baggage from heaven, to hell, to souls, to afterlife, to angels and deamons, to God's singularity and attributes, to the modes of interaction between the material and immaterial. I do not claim to do away with all faith. However, I certainly claim to do away with unquestioned acceptance of claims. It is part of my 'doctrine' that you have a right to disagree, and that by a very long shot you might even be right and I wrong in an absolute sense about existence of God or the supernatural and immortal. However, I reserve the right to shoot down any of your claims (or indeed even my own) whenever they come in flat and demonstrable contradiction with actual observed reality. Ultimately, I view all religion as mere guessing. However, there are blind guesses, and then there are educated ones.

2) The only way I can ever believe in God, is if he/she/it personally explains to me and shows me the reasons, mechanisms, and foundations for absolutely everything, including God's own existence -- and explains it in such a way that the existence of God would no longer be questionable. Needless to say, I am still waiting (seems like God got out of the personal catering business a few millennia ago. :))

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

ISDAMan

08-31-99, 02:01 AM

Boris,

QUOTE: What I argue for is an end to the old-style religions with their fixed mindsets, absolutist beliefs, and broadside directives unsupported by reason and taken on faith. I would like people to become far more open-minded than they are on average at present, and I want people to become far more aware of the deeper insights stemming from their very surroundings. At the same time, I want people to be critical and reasonable about the stances they take and the goals they set. And I honestly believe we as a civilization have a chance to achieve all of these goals.

Isn't your religion in possession of the fixed mind set that other religions with rules ( i.e. fixed mind sets and damnation ) not adhering to yours should be done away with? It's funny, the efforts of men often make them what they fear or hate most. Furthermore, I hope that you're not saying that there are no absolutes. That would be murder to your perceptions of what's around you. You couldn't even rely on the here and now if there were no absolutes. That couldn't have been what you meant. For there to be no absolutes would be a paradoxical denial of such a law itself. What social ills, through the power of reason, has society been able to positively cure? Looking back in the past of the good old US of A, it's plain to see a direct correlation between high moral standards in the country and the percentage of persons there in practicing Christianity. When Christians are strong in this country, this country is strong. No other religion could even come close to making this claim. Something odd about religion based upon reason is that it must adjust to fit the times. Reason is like technology. It must progress with its possessor or die. While the very universe and existence you are professing to be perceiving, no matter how it may be twisting and turning, is the same old one it's ever been. Boil it down and all the systems and dynamics that drive the whole thing are the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Since that's the case, this religion that you have affirmed, which has its base built on what is both stable and unstable, is unable to survive it's own definition. I agree that your religion is not on the very same playing field as Christianity. Now, to discus people being critical. I have not seen you profess this, however, this is the very thing that Christianity haters tend to most hate about Christianity. Another word for critical is judgemental. We all know that no defendant in the courtroom ever jumps up and shouts, "Thank You Judge!!! I needed that 15 yr. sentence!!!" Judgement still must come. The power to be critical, to judge, stems from your foundation. If your foundation is solid there and shifting here, you could never get an accurate judgement. Another word for judgement is measurement. Your statement, "I want people to be critical and reasonable about the stances they take and the goals they set.", gives the impression that people should establish and judge what the truth is but, not necessary follow it. Now, I ask you, "Which one is shady again?!?"

QUOTE: I do not claim to do away with all faith. However, I certainly claim to do away with unquestioned acceptance of claims.

Supposing that someone does, without question, accept the claims of the Bible, where does it conflict with your religion? This person has clearly judged that he cannot hold judgement over the claims. Also, could you clarify your statements on faith for me?

QUOTE: The only way I can ever believe in God, is if he/she/it personally explains to me and shows me the reasons, mechanisms, and foundations for absolutely everything, including God's own existence -- and explains it in such a way that the existence of God would no longer be questionable. Needless to say, I am still waiting (seems like God got out of the personal catering business a few millennia ago. )

How can God be God if God has to yield to your will? You're close, but, not quite on one thing. God has never been in the personal catering business. He calls people to come to Him.

Peace, Love, and Prayers
ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

bedlanam

08-31-99, 02:09 AM

boris,

so there is truth in that which is observeavle, and none beyond; until a method to observe it is developed. therefore all speculative theory is fantasy. and many of our discoveries have come of this, fantasy. u agree to a change once evidence 'arrives' , evidence will arrive. so many have not been wrong about the soul. the study of mind cannot derive such a stance, it is your right of course not to believe that it exists. yet it is also your own injustice. what attempts to percieve the soul have you (ever) made ?as fact is the premise/economy of your 'religion', then you must have demonitized the soul in some way, otherwise it has been unaccounted for. what was the beginning, middle and end of this 'objection' to your 'religion'. because it was not observeable ? but we observe thru our senses and this is where u can observe your soul. you have evaded the possibility well. u will begin to notice things in a different way. u will have your proof -

peace

Flash

08-31-99, 03:15 AM

ISDAMan,
Alright then... but .. ok, then what is your
motive? I mean..the stuff you are saying
is pretty much out there don't you think?
How did you expect me to respond?
You just come in here and wham...you have
me tagged as some kind of wacko alcoholic
who is in serious need of help. Thing is
you do not even know me. I am not the only
one who comes here and writes while drinking... Why me?
All I was simply doing was to try to voice
my beliefs and to try to get some kind of
input on the questions I asked...which I
might add are still unanswered...isn't that
strange?
Ok, my sword is down... no more anger. How's
that? How would you feel if I walked in
and asked you the same kinds of questions
you asked me? Not to mention right here
on a message board. Wouldn't you get pissed?
Somewhat????? The things you said were not
light..not to mention off base. As far as
the e-mail thing goes...you KNOW the answer
to that one... do me a favor..e-mail me back
and let me know what I wrote to make you think all of this shit.

Plato

08-31-99, 01:03 PM

ISDAman,

You know up until this point I actually had some sympathy for your points. I found you to be a true christian who is firm in his belief and even tries to live or at least write according to it. I must say I admire that in people. But I was suddenly taken by the following claim :
Quote -
"Looking back in the past of the good old US of A, it's plain to see a direct correlation between high moral standards in the country and the percentage of persons there in practicing Christianity. When Christians are strong in this country, this country is strong. No other religion could even come close to making this claim. "

Ok, I can imagine you being a patriot while you where in the army and all but this is really outragously stupid. You call exterminating Indians high moral ? Or what about inviding a third world country like Puerto Rico ? Or what about thinking that the southern part of the New Continent is your play garding where you can intervene and install puppet governments as you please ? Castro was a hard pill to swallow wasn't it ? Not to mention the fact that you guys are proclaiming yourself to be the rulers of the earth, the New World Order, remember ?
Shall I go on ? Perhaps this is a bit to unsettling for you patriottic mind. Ok, the European countries are as bad if not worse but this had nothing to do with religion.

------------------
"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

Mock

08-31-99, 01:13 PM

Hi to all, on a lighter note ...

" To see a world in a grain of sand
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour."

The world is so beautiful, God`s fingerprints are all over it. Notwithstanding the evil that men do.

Let`s all lighten up.

In Christ.

Boris

08-31-99, 02:45 PM

ISDAMan:

Isn't your religion in possession of the fixed mind set that other religions with rules ( i.e. fixed mind sets and damnation ) not adhering to yours should be done away with? It's funny, the efforts of men often make them what they fear or hate most.

If you are willing to call an opinion a 'fixed mind set', then so be it -- but then you would be somewhat redefining the meaning of the words, wouldn't you? My entire 'religion' is composed of opinions I hold. They are not 'fixed mind sets', as I have tried to explain earlier. I am willing to reexamine any one of them if they come in direct contradiction with hard evidence.

Furthermore, I hope that you're not saying that there are no absolutes. That would be murder to your perceptions of what's around you. You couldn't even rely on the here and now if there were no absolutes. That couldn't have been what you meant.

Indeed, I mean precisely that there are no absolutes (with just two rare exceptions to be mentioned shortly). There are two reasons for such a claim:

Reason 1:
Save the two exceptions, there are no absolutes we know of. All our knowledge of the world consists of 1) observations, 2) generalizations (theories) based on observations. Theories are merely models; it is impossible to guarantee that any one theory actually reflects an absolute truth. Theories are built from facts through induction; there is no mathematical justification for the process of induction, it is merely assumed to work, and demonstrated to work through practice. The two fundamental, or 'absolute' as you might call them, assumptions that underlie induction are 1) we exist, and so does the world around us, 2) the world is not chaotic (i.e. the world follows laws that are semi-constant at least over short periods of time.)

Reason 2:
Precisely because of the inductive nature of our knowledge, we could never in principle know the absolute constitution of the universe. For example, we have induced certain laws of nature, such as the forward passage of time, or the law of gravity. However, nothing guarantees that in the next instant something will not flip in the universe to make time flow backward, or turn gravity into a repulsive force. The only thing we can be sure of is that we know roughly what happened in the relatively recent past, and that as long as we continue to exist in the future, we are justified on making predictions based on our present knowledge/theories. Ultimately, our beliefs, theories, and facts are only as absolute or guaranteed, as the probability that we shall still be here in the next instant (for if any physical law abruptly changed, we would probably cease to exist.)

What social ills, through the power of reason, has society been able to positively cure?

Nothing could ever cure all social ills. Deviants are part of evolutionary reality, and they will always be present (unless we come to control our very constitution and maturation in every nuance). But let me ask a question of *you*: what sounds more convincing as a motivation for upholding a moral, "we say that God says...", or "for your own and common good, because..."?

Looking back in the past of the good old US of A, it's plain to see a direct correlation between high moral standards in the country and the percentage of persons there in practicing Christianity. When Christians are strong in this country, this country is strong. No other religion could even come close to making this claim.

Plato's got part of my response. But may I also remind you that when Christianity was at its most rampant in U.S., so was slavery, and so was religious persecution, and so was sexism, and so was laissez faire capitalism, and so was environmental destruction, to name just a few? "High moral standards" is a very subjective measure; it is by far not as absolute as you would like it to be...

Something odd about religion based upon reason is that it must adjust to fit the times. Reason is like technology. It must progress with its possessor or die. While the very universe and existence you are professing to be perceiving, no matter how it may be twisting and turning, is the same old one it's ever been.

Yes, the concept of a religion adjusting to fit the times may indeed be very odd to you. Yet, that very principle is at the root of my 'religion'. Actually, to put it more accurately, I do not propose that religion 'adjust itself to fit the times'. Rather, I propose that religion stem exclusively from facts and demonstrated theories, and adjust to fit just those two foundations, not merely the whimsy of contemporary society.

As for the constancy of the universe, I already mentioned that it's only an inductive assumption; it is by no means an absolute. Of course, we hope that this particular assumption is true in an absolute sense, and we base our very existence on it (as does the rest of life on Earth, or anywhere else.) And, we hope that as long as that assumption holds out against observables, we can build theories that converge ever-closer to a true representation of reality. And that's what my 'religion' is all about.

Now, to discus people being critical. I have not seen you profess this, however, this is the very thing that Christianity haters tend to most hate about Christianity. Another word for critical is judgemental.

No, that is not what I mean by 'critical' (i.e. I don't mean it in the same sense as 'judgemental', or contrary). A critical approach means an approach that considers both the pros and the cons on equal footing -- and ultimately elects an affirmative or negative conclusion based on the prevalence of the pros over the cons, or vice versa. It is also an approach that never truly closes the case, and is always open toward examination of new evidence.

The power to be critical, to judge, stems from your foundation. If your foundation is solid there and shifting here, you could never get an accurate judgement.

No foundation could ever be conclusively proven to be 100% solid. What I claim is that my foundation is more solid than any before, and grows ever more solid with every passing year.

Your statement, "I want people to be critical and reasonable about the stances they take and the goals they set.", gives the impression that people should establish and judge what the truth is but, not necessary follow it. Now, I ask you, "Which one is shady again?!?"

Judging what the truth is indeed does not necessitate 'following' the truth (whatever that means). To establish certain norms of behavior, we have laws. All I ask is that the laws we create be based on critical reasoning, and not some holy book -- and that they be taught, justified and enforced in the same manner.

Supposing that someone does, without question, accept the claims of the Bible, where does it conflict with your religion? This person has clearly judged that he cannot hold judgement over the claims. Also, could you clarify your statements on faith for me?

It conflicts with my religion in the sense that the person took a whole warehouse of empty claims on faith with no shred of empirical evidence to back them up. Not only that, but a lot of the claims sound extremely unbelievable in light of empirical evidence or theories rooted therein, and some of the claims just flat contradict empirical evidence. And finally, I argue that the process of theory formation is directional, and goes from empirical measurement to hypothesis, to theory. It should never go from pure unfounded speculation in reverse direction (because chances of success of such an approach are basically 0).

How can God be God if God has to yield to your will? You're close, but, not quite on one thing. God has never been in the personal catering business. He calls people to come to Him.

God according to ISDAMan and his reliable sources, Chapter 1...

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

ISDAMan

08-31-99, 05:54 PM

Whoa There Plato,

ARMY?!?!?!?!?!? That's UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS! For any that be amongst the non-military here, though both are equally patriotic and loyal in service, there is a major difference. That switch was the only unsettling comment you had made.

I thank you extremely for you having expressed that you have noticed my desire to follow Christ. That really does mean a lot to me. :)

QUOTE: You call exterminating Indians high moral ? Or what about inviding a third world country like Puerto Rico ? Or what about thinking that the southern part of the New Continent is your play garding where you can intervene and install puppet governments as you please ? Castro was a hard pill to swallow wasn't it ? Not to mention the fact that you guys are proclaiming yourself to be the rulers of the earth, the New World Order, remember ?

Having noticed what you have noticed about me, do you think that I, as a Christian, would have condoned these atrocities? I never said that we ever controlled this country. I made a statement to the level of influence we have had on this country as a whole and in the heart of men not policy. Morality is a matter of the heart not law. When there was more morality, there was less law. People just didn't do the things that they do today. Yes, just as today, we have had dips in influence. It's our own fault. Yet, the upper echelons of the government and the will that drives them is typically a non-Christian will, has typically been, and will no doubt remain so. That is evident even in our government today (No matter what false face ol' Billy Bob puts on it.). What I can say about those dark times, weather they slipped up behind us or were allowed because we were too weak, it is a stone cold fact that Christians could be counted on to help us through it. I, a Black man myself, am grateful to all the effort, the Christian and non-Christian, that went into freeing the slaves. The Indians, no doubt, were treated even worse than we. Many of their people no longer exist. It's obvious that many fools, in the past and even today, have undertaken missions of filth and bloodshed and claimed the false value of virtue by calling their actions, "The Will Of God". Some, even, being true Christians, have strayed so far from a right relationship with God that the product of their sins have brought shame to the entire family of Christians. We can all point to these kinds of stories. We can, also, all point to people in our own families that have done foolishly and subsequently turned away from their foolishness. We can all even point these things out in our own lives. Yes, there were wolves that come in with the sheep. Thankfully, many of those wolves and their ways are dead. I wish they all were. Until then, I will continue to do what is correct in the sight of God so as to be a benefit to my neighbor. I can never account for the ills that arise in the minds of others. I will have to account for my own some day. They will have to for theirs. If we all had our focus on maintaining a right relationship to the God of the Bible, it would be very hard for these evil events to come to pass.

QUOTE: Ok, the European countries are as bad if not worse but this had nothing to do with religion.

Just like with us, it had everything to do with their orientation with the God that created them.

Peace, Love, and Prayers
ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

ISDAMan

08-31-99, 08:12 PM

Boris,

If you are willing to call an opinion a 'fixed mind set', then so be it -- but then you would be somewhat redefining the meaning of the words, wouldn't you? My entire 'religion' is composed of opinions I hold. They are not 'fixed mind sets', as I have tried to explain earlier. I am willing to reexamine any one of them if they come in direct contradiction with hard evidence.

However, you still hold the key on what you will or will not accept as hard evidence. In fact, you already have this whole thing preconceived as is proven by your statement, "The only way I can ever believe in God, is if he/she/it personally explains to me and shows me the reasons, mechanisms, and foundations for absolutely everything, including God's own existence -- and explains it in such a way that the existence of God would no longer be questionable." You have already chosen to exclude any evidence that does not fit this criteria. It's rare that any detective is able to make his case against a criminal by finding a hand written manifesto, belonging to the criminal, entitled A Step By Step Illustrated Guide To How I committed The Crime. If you refute the Bible as evidence and say that you will look elsewhere, then, if you are a good detective, you will have no choice but to collect the pieces. You, instead, are throwing everything away that doesn't fit your key in whole. That sounds like a fixed mind set to me.

QUOTE: Theories are merely models; it is impossible to guarantee that any one theory actually reflects an absolute truth. Theories are built from facts through induction; there is no mathematical justification for the process of induction, it is merely assumed to work, and demonstrated to work through practice.

That's why theory is theory and fact is fact, reflecting back upon your first sentence in quote. Theories are built of a product of perceived values of fact intermingled with idea. Your definition defines theory as fact in that it is inducted from something existing and unseen. I could just as easily say, as it once was, that flies spontaneously formed from rotting meat. Through practice, as meat was allowed to rot, flies arose. The theory was induced from a false perception and was itself false. Yet, it always produced flies as expected.

QUOTE: Reason 2:
Precisely because of the inductive nature of our knowledge, we could never in principle know the absolute constitution of the universe. For example, we have induced certain laws of nature, such as the forward passage of time, or the law of gravity. However, nothing guarantees that in the next instant something will not flip in the universe to make time flow backward, or turn gravity into a repulsive force. The only thing we can be sure of is that we know roughly what happened in the relatively recent past, and that as long as we continue to exist in the future, we are justified on making predictions based on our present knowledge/theories. Ultimately, our beliefs, theories, and facts are only as absolute or guaranteed, as the probability that we shall still be here in the next instant (for if any physical law abruptly changed, we would probably cease to exist.)

Man, you're getting all mystical on me now. Are you the same Boris from the Expanding Universe discussion? Why even bother if reality can be so loose? Who cares. There's not even any use in discussing this if that were true. All the fun would be just setting around and waiting to see if you still existed. Your religion has a basis in observing what is around you. You could never even come close to supporting any of that stuff with what you observe around you. I find it amazing that you can believe in the possible upheaval of all that is the basis for what is physical around you, while, at the same time, with the basic fact that everything not alive can be reduced to a mathematical equation (some you'd have to be darned quick for), you deny the existence of a maker. By your way, we have a code and no code master. Worse yet, the code doesn't even matter. It could self-destruct or re-establish itself at any moment. That's far out!

QUOTE: But let me ask a question of *you*: what sounds more convincing as a motivation for upholding a moral, "we say that God says...", or "for your own and common good, because..."?

Is it not the common good, if there is a God, to be in allegiance with Him? Why bother standing against the one with the power enough to make all that exits?

QUOTE: But may I also remind you that when Christianity was at its most rampant in U.S., so was slavery, and so was religious persecution, and so was sexism, and so was laissez faire capitalism, and so was environmental destruction, to name just a few?

You can read what I wrote to Plato. On top of that, with the good people came the evil. The evil, being evil, use every underhanded method to advance their cause. The good triumph by staying the course. The evil triumph when the good do not. History shows true that despite battle scars we staid the course.

QUOTE: Yes, the concept of a religion adjusting to fit the times may indeed be very odd to you. Yet, that very principle is at the root of my 'religion'. Actually, to put it more accurately, I do not propose that religion 'adjust itself to fit the times'. Rather, I propose that religion stem exclusively from facts and demonstrated theories, and adjust to fit just those two foundations, not merely the whimsy of contemporary society.

We've pretty well covered this stuff dealing with what is real, theory, fact, and idea. I see a lot of clashes.

QUOTE: No, that is not what I mean by 'critical' (i.e. I don't mean it in the same sense as 'judgemental', or contrary). A critical approach means an approach that considers both the pros and the cons on equal footing -- and ultimately elects an affirmative or negative conclusion based on the prevalence of the pros over the cons, or vice versa. It is also an approach that never truly closes the case, and is always open toward examination of new evidence.

QUOTE: Judging what the truth is indeed does not necessitate 'following' the truth (whatever that means). To establish certain norms of behavior, we have laws. All I ask is that the laws we create be based on critical reasoning, and not some holy book -- and that they be taught, justified and enforced in the same manner.

Where does that differ from judgement? You're actually producing more your way and leaving every action open to speculation. People are not so cut and dry. If people in general followed this plan, it's obvious that people would constantly second guess their own or others choices. There is no stable benchmark here by which they can evaluate their choices. People already do a great deal of second guessing as is. There is no stability in your system. If you don't want to believe me that stability is important, just look at nature around you. Even you affirmed that stability is important through out the entirety of your post. Furthermore, how can you both create and enforce laws based on a relational value system? Who is anybody to tell someone else that they have wronged under your religion? Even worse, the progress of reasoning does not progress at the same rate for all people. How can a stable platform of what is acceptable and unacceptable be brought to bare while reasonably accounting for everyone's reasoning? Who gets to be the one to say some parts of someone's reasoning are ok and some are not? Your religion needs an unchanging God. There can be no law without stability. If stability can be passing in an instant, then, your laws have no value. Please, tell me where in nature you have observed laws change, re-arrange, or dissolve all together.

QUOTE: No foundation could ever be conclusively proven to be 100% solid. What I claim is that my foundation is more solid than any before, and grows ever more solid with every passing year.

Now, you know I couldn't post without disputing this one ;). Just the very fact that the arguments against Christianity have remained the same throughout the centuries is a testament of solidity. You might have lying fools trying to claim that they have new secret Bible codes, but, you will not find a single man that can say I have an all new proof against Christianity. In fact, as time goes on, the Bible is affirmed more and more through even secular discoveries in the world. The arguments are shrinking.

QUOTE: It conflicts with my religion in the sense that the person took a whole warehouse of empty claims on faith with no shred of empirical evidence to back them up. Not only that, but a lot of the claims sound extremely unbelievable in light of empirical evidence or theories rooted therein, and some of the claims just flat contradict empirical evidence. And finally, I argue that the process of theory formation is directional, and goes from empirical measurement to hypothesis, to theory. It should never go from pure unfounded speculation in reverse direction (because chances of success of such an approach are basically 0).

Again, under your religion, who are you to reason against what that person has reasoned? By what standard can you say that the person took a whole warehouse of empty claims on faith with no shred of empirical evidence to back them up? By what standard can you say that the claims are empty? You sound emotional to me. No man is Mr. Spock. Lastly, the speculator is he whom it is that is digging for his theory in a box of toy parts. The man based on what he truly knows to be real is reading the instruction manual.

Peace, Love, and Prayers
ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

ISDAMan

08-31-99, 09:36 PM

Flash,

I'm working on your e-mail now.

Peace, Love, and Prayers
ISDAMan

------------------
Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online (http://welcome.to/apostlecreed).

Boris

08-31-99, 09:50 PM

ISDAMan:

you still hold the key on what you will or will not accept as hard evidence.

Not so. I put the key out in public. My criterion is this: hard evidence is that evidence which 1) stems from pure measurement (is phenomenological), 2) can be replicated through more measurements, 3) will be arrived at regardless of the observer's initial mindset. For example, there is plenty of hard evidence for Earth's rotation. One way to measure it is to construct a Foucault pendulum at some non-zero latitude. Hopefully, it should be clear to you now, why it is that I refuse to consider the Bible to be evidence for anything other than its own existence.

The reason I got so tough on proofs of God, is that any 'evidence' save that I cited before and that is phenomenological, will fall into two categories: 1) explainable through current physical theories, 2) not explainable through current physical theories. If the evidence falls into category 1), it says nothing about God. If it falls into category 2), it more likely says something about incompleteness of our theories, than about God.

Your definition defines theory as fact in that it is inducted from something existing and unseen.

This is the opposite of my definition. Theory is not fact; only observation is fact. Theory is induced from observation.

I could just as easily say, as it once was, that flies spontaneously formed from rotting meat. Through practice, as meat was allowed to rot, flies arose. The theory was induced from a false perception and was itself false. Yet, it always produced flies as expected.

This is a good example of how theories progress. Yes, any theory is only as good as its background of observational data. As more varied observations are performed that agree with the theory, the theory grows stronger, as it were. In this case, the spontaneous formation was indeed once a theory, verifiable through experiment. It is only after a particular experiment was performed that the theory of spontaneous generation was shown to be false, and was replaced by a better theory. Namely, if you let meat rot inside a closed class jar, no flies will appear on it. This disproves the theory of spontaneous generation, and gives rise to more observation, through which we eventually arrive at the theory that flies deposit eggs into the bread, which transform into maggots, which in turn give rise to more flies.

All science progresses through a similar process, and that is why it claims that its theories slowly but steadily must converge toward the truth.

There's not even any use in discussing this if that were true. All the fun would be just setting around and waiting to see if you still existed. Your religion has a basis in observing what is around you. You could never even come close to supporting any of that stuff with what you observe around you.

All I wanted to say is, that the constancy of the universal laws is in itself only a theory. So far, it has been verified countless times, over billions of years, through direct measurement both by sentient scientists, and by the rest of the matter-energy in the universe. However, that does not mean that this particular theory could never be disproved. The assumption that it won't is one of the fundamental justifications for induction.

By your way, we have a code and no code master. Worse yet, the code doesn't even matter. It could self-destruct or re-establish itself at any moment.

That is indeed what I am saying. The 'no code master' portion of this, is of course an assumption, arrived at with aim for conceptual simplicity and accuracy of the model (Occam's razor, in other words). Until some observation actually necessitates a hypothesis of a code-maker, I relegate that hypothesis to the bottomless pits filled with infinity of other empty speculations.

You're actually producing more your way and leaving every action open to speculation. People are not so cut and dry. If people in general followed this plan, it's obvious that people would constantly second guess their own or others choices. There is no stable benchmark here by which they can evaluate their choices.

I want people to constantly second-guess their own actions! Perhaps if they did so more often, they wouldn't participate in mob insanity, chase after scandals, behave hypocritically, or step on others, to name a few.

As for 'stable benchmarks' -- that's what laws are for. Laws not passed by me, or my neighbor -- but by our democratically-elected Congress. It is those laws in particular that ought to be justified through critical argument rather than appellation to religion. As for personal guidelines, much of what modern religions teach would still remain. As I've said earlier, the Golden Rule can be accepted and internalized purely based upon its evident practical value, rather than based on unjustified religious handwaving.

There is no stability in your system. If you don't want to believe me that stability is important, just look at nature around you.

There indeed is stability in my system. As much stability as in the scientific enterprise as a whole. My system should converge toward ever-more stable and universal principles, just as science converges toward ever-more stable and universal theories.

As for nature, the 'stability' around you is illusory. The only things that do not change are the laws of physics. Everything else is in a constant and frenzied flux; if our lifetimes were a few orders of magnitude longer, you would be directly able to perceive the constant change in the world. There is a reason they say you can never enter the same river twice.

But my world outlook is not in as much flux as nature in general. It consists mainly of theories and observations tied inexorably to physical laws. So, as long as physical laws remain unchanged, so will the basic 'flavor' of any stances I take.

Furthermore, how can you both create and enforce laws based on a relational value system? Who is anybody to tell someone else that they have wronged under your religion?

Well -- who is a judge to sentence you to a punishment other than a person following the rules laid out by Congress?

Even worse, the progress of reasoning does not progress at the same rate for all people. How can a stable platform of what is acceptable and unacceptable be brought to bare while reasonably accounting for everyone's reasoning? Who gets to be the one to say some parts of someone's reasoning are ok and some are not?

Normally, nobody gets to decide who is right and who is wrong. What I call for are open debates. And in debates, a winner usually does emerge eventually -- either by revealing a self-contradiction on the loser's side, or having been justified through empirical observation. Until a consensus is reached in any debate, conclusions should not be drawn. Nevertheless, once conclusions are drawn they can be widely relied upon and applied universally, until hard evidence surfaces to contradict named conclusions.

There can be no law without stability. If stability can be passing in an instant, then, your laws have no value.

Your first observation is correct. In fact, 'stability' is only another way of saying 'lawfullness'.

There is two-fold consideration when it comes to stability. On the one hand, we have the question of stability of physical laws. On the other hand, we have the question of stability of theories.

We only exist as long as physical laws remain stable. Therefore, we should not concern ourselves with what would happen if physical laws changed, since most likely we would not survive to endure the consequences. As for stability of theories, it is pretty much guaranteed through the assumption of stability of fundamental physical laws. As long as nature behaves consistently, theories are guaranteed to converge toward a complete description of nature.

By what standard can you say that the claims are empty?

As discussed above, that standard is foundation in 'hard evidence', or in better words, empirical observation.

The man based on what he truly knows to be real is reading the instruction manual.

No man could possibly truly know what is real. If you assume to the contrary, you are kidding yourself.

The perception of absolute reality is illusory, and forgievable. It stems from the most fundamental assumption of all life that the basic laws of physics remain constant. It is little wonder that life's most fundamental assumption is also the one arrived at by a naiive thinker. With more reflection, however, one realizes that everything we perceive and assume merely represents a small portion of reality. When we make absolutist claims based on our limited knowledge, we are extrapolating our observations to infinity. With linear laws this may be fine, but with any more complex aspects of reality it would clearly be a horrendous fallacy. The trouble is, we have no way of even knowing which portions of reality perceived by us, form complete representations of a part of the true underlying structure -- and we have no way of knowing which, if any, of our current theories can be extrapolated to all of space and time without missing anything significant.

Remember now that I argue from a 'clean slate' viewpoint. I do not assume the Christian 'truths', or indeed the claims of any religion out there. I hold the opinion that all of human knowledge has been obtained exclusively from our senses, and complemented through ever-evolving theories. That means, I assume the stories of the Christians, Buddhists, Egyptians or Greeks are all exclusively results of the minds of humans. I assume that our species has slowly accumulated knowledge starting from the state of an ape's awareness and progressing all the way to the heights of modern comprehension. And any claims of observable or moral 'absolutes' are therefore, from my standpoint, fallacious. What we ultimately arrive at as 'true', is a result of concensus through theory, or through observation, or often through both or either coupled with deductive argument.

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited August 31, 1999).]