I am curious. If you found out that God is infact the author of the bible, and that Jesus died for your sins what would you do? You may disagree with some of Gods laws in the bible. Will this keep you from Him? Would you try to know Jesus? Would you still be angry at God for allowing evil in the world? Would you accept the fact that you are a bad person and need forgiveness?

Vinnie

My boss was a Jewish carpenter.

You mean IF God and Jesus are who they REALLY are suppose to be as the Bible portrays? IF.. and that is really really really really really stretching it...God and Jesus were the real thing...
Well, let me put it this way...I'd give it MUCH MUCH THOUGHT... but, that wouldn't do any good anyway...there are just somethings in my life I am not willing to give up that the bible calls sins...sooooooooo to hell I'd go..cause one has to abide by ALL the bloody rules..right?!?!?!

BUT... let me ask you this... do you not think that God and Jesus are pretty egotistical???
What do you make of the tantrums also? Well now...I don't like what these people are doing so I am just gonna kill them..even though it goes against one of the 10 commandments (strange, huh?)
Worship me..praise me...don't you know I am worthy of it???? *gag*

TS,

She did it! See? She just said it again! I know what particular sin she is referring to, but it is irrelevant which one. I had about a gazzillion to reconcile myself and still do.

Here's the way I approached it...I didn't understand all of God's laws when I was saved, or when I decided that I believed anyway. I understood enough for me to honestly say to myself that I could NOT deny the truth any longer. So what I did, was not focus so much on changing myself, but to pray for forgiveness of those sins I understood that I had committed, and even those that I didn't. I prayed for truth, and for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in Jesus name. The Holy Spirit and faith in Jesus does WONDERS for reconciling God's laws and explaining the word of God to your heart. When you believe in God, your entire PERSPECTIVE changes. Try to imagin if you truly believed. I think that many of you would have a difficult time doing that as you are so confused as to what the teachings are and mean. But believe me, the change in PERSPECTIVE OR PERCEPTION is what fosters understanding and enlightenment to the word of God. If any of you know about witchcraft, or some other spiritual practices that involve the power of our minds or our thoughts, and even science backs up the fact that there is no action without thought. Thought drives everything, and your perceptions induce particular thoughts. The message of God and the laws of God are to explain the INTENT behind all things and all actions, and beginning with all thoughts. If your intent is pure and of God in your thoughts, then so will be your actions. I'm talking in circles again. Woe is me. Ok, the realization that there is a God, changes your perceptions (in a humbling fashion to be sure), which changes your intentions (to glorify God in everything you do), which in turn changes your behavior. It's almost like magic. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that changing your behavior is not something that is as difficult as you would imagine it to be once you are saved in Christ. For example, and Flash you know this story well, I've told you guys about the kind of sex life I'm used to right? Well, especially in marriage, that's the ONE thing that me and my husband did NOT have any problems with. Well, now since we're separated, the well runneth dry, and Lori is one horny puppy. It would be very, very, very, very, and did I mention how very easy it would be for me to hop on down to the local watering hole and find me a warm body for the night? Very easy. And to justify doing so based on what an absolute dick my husband's been lately? Very easy. Do I want to do that? NO F'ING WAY!!!!!!!! Why? I have absolutely NO DESIRE TO that's why. It would be not only futile, as I know from past experience, it would also be a direct sin against my God, and that is the LAST thing that I would ever want to do to Him. He has given me so much. And I KNOW that NO GOOD ever comes from sin, so how could I LOGICALLY want to go out and perpetuate more of the same sin that is ruining our world and our lives at an alarming rate? Why would I? I don't. Not for a gazzillion dollars. Not for the best sex in the whole world. Nothing is worth that. I hope that helps to explain.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

BUT, Lori... ahhhhh nevermind... :p

Lori,


She did it! See? She just said it again

and your point??????? :confused:

Flash,

I think this is a follow-up on a discussion in another thread where Lori and I had indicated that some people have a problem with Jesus' message of right relationships through love as Jesus/God has taught us and which is documented in the New Testament of the Bible. Some "believe" right now, that they would rather "go to hell" than to change their lifestyle because they are too proud, too egotistical, or because it means that they might have to give something up:


...there are just somethings in my life I am not willing to give up that the bible calls sins...sooooooooo to hell I'd go..

I notice that you consider the information given to you by Jesus/God to be "dictatorial" in nature. However, this is simply not the case. God has given us the facts of life... The pros and the cons. God has also given us a free will to live our lives as we choose. Good or bad, Flash, everything has consequences.

If, for example, in the "olden days," you were studying to get a degree and during one of your classes, there was a debate as to whether the world was flat or round. While you were in the class, the instructor allowed the debate to go on freely. However, during the debate, the instructor informed everyone that although we all thought the world was flat at one time and although some of us still want to believe that, the reality is that the world is round.

The instructor informs you that he/she has been given this information by the highest authority, gives you all the information to support the authority's knowledge, but you want more "proof." The instructor informs you that ALL the "proof" you desire will be available to you once you finish the course and get your degree. In the meantime however, the instructor asks you to trust his/her judgement, because he/she has seen this and "knows" it to be true.

In addition, your instructor tells you that this will be a question on your final exam... many in the class object, because they believe that they "know better," regardless of what the "authority" has informed them and they express that "no way in hell" are they going to answer that the world is round. The instructor reminds them that their "belief" that the world is flat, comes from the less-enlightened masses.

The instructor informs them that, of course, how they answer the question is their choice but, that the question is considered so important that it is worth 100% of their grade. The instructor also reminds them that they have worked so hard and come so far... The instructor goes on to tell them that he/she would REALLY like to see them get their degree that they've worked so hard for... And, here is the reality of the situation: If they choose to answer that the world is round, they will pass their final exam and earn their degree. If they choose to answer that the world is flat, however, they will fail their exam and not earn their degree.

Do you consider this, too, to be dictating, Flash?



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 30, 1999).]

True' - If I may butt in a little bit with your analogy here.

What if the class questioned the instructor about where he was educated, and he sort of 'hemed and hawed' around the subject, and finally ended up listing a university that nobody could find evidence of, except for some old class schedule about 60 years old? But, 'take my word for it, it's true' he says. Would you?

What if the class thought the world was round, and he was the one claiming it was flat? "Answer however you want, but if you say round, you'll fail - I'll give you all proof later, after you've committed to an answer" Would you go ahead and list 'flat' as your answer, even if you've heard "proof" it was round from elsewhere?

I think I'd get a new teacher.

Skye,
Very very good point! ;)

TS,
I'd have to agree with Skye here.
You call it free will..and to a point it is..but on the other hand...
It's like this... God says it is free will..
BUT he is manipulating via fear..that is nothing but being a BULLY... It's like a bank robber that comes in and says..you can give me the money or not..the CHOICE is yours.. however, if you don't..I will kill you. Yeah, pretty much like that.

I've seen pictures of the world from space. I'm pretty sure its round. :)

Do I think God and Jesus are pretty egotistical? I think Jesus was very humble. Humble enough to give his life for us. He always talked about humility and not serving yourself. Jesus did claim to be the way, the truth, and the life. He said the only way to the father is through him. This may seem egotistical to some but what if its the truth? I may play you a few games of chess and conclude that I am a little better at chess than you. Is this egotistical of me? I don't think so. I'm just stating a fact based on observations. If I said, "I'm the best. Your no good. You can't beat me. Your a loser. You suck. Get a life. I can't believe I beat you so easily, you have to be the stupidest person in the world." Then I'd probably being egotistical. But just stating that I'm a better chess player than you is not being egotistical.

The definition of egotist reads this:
1.The tendency to speak or write of oneself excessively or boastfully.
2.An inflated sense of ones own importance.

God may be considered egotistical using the first definition. His holiness is mentioned a 'few' times in the bible. But looking at the second definition: God is God and he knows it. Can God have an inflated sense of his own importance? God is what sustains us. He created everything. His importance speaks for itself. He is all important. Without him there is nothing. God says be holy for I am holy. This is a true statement.

God may be considered egotistical by the definition above but its not in a negative way as the question implied.

The tantrums? God punishes sin. Is it considered a tantrum when police officers raid a drug dealers house?

The ten commandments and killing? There seems to be a slight difference between killing and murdering.

The hebrew word used for murder or kill, depending on the version you use, usually refers to a premeditated and deliberate act in the 10 commandments. It seems there is a differnce between killing someone so you can marry their wife and killing someone in war or in the case capital punishment.


________________________________________
there are just somethings in my life I am not willing to give up that the bible calls sins...sooooooooo to hell I'd go..cause one has to abide by ALL the bloody rules..right?!?!?!
_________________________________________

As Lori mentioned a lot of things will be miraculously taken from you. Being a christian isn't about following rules and regulaions. Its having a realtionship with Jesus. Don't expect to become a christian and drop every one of your bad habits instantly. Some will be taken from you without your consent. The desire that you had for certain things will just disappear. You have to ask God to show you the truth. Say I disagree with this. It goes against everything that i've ever known or been taught. How can this be so? God will teach you.

I remember a story I was told. One person was witnessing to some girl and she said she couldn't possibly become a christian because she had a HUGE crush on a musician and becoming a christian meant she had to give that up. Well, thats what she thought anyways. She was told she didn't have to give that up. She was told christianity is about having a relationship with Jesus, not a bunch of rules and regulations. She became a christian and sure enough her crush just disappeared. It was gone. To live in Christ means your old self has died. You don't neccesarily kill your old self. Itmiraculously disappears when you accept Jesus into your heart. Its pretty bizarre but lots of people will testify that this is the case. A lot of people who were not raised in a Christian home and later became a
christian can testify to this.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

___________________________________________
It's like a bank robber that comes in and says..you can give me the money or not..the CHOICE is yours.. however, if you don't..I will kill you.
_________________________________________

God's motive and the bank robbers motive is totally different. Aside from that the smart thing to do would be to give him the money.

God created us for a reason. Life is like a test. You can pass or fail. If you pass you go to heaven. If you fail you go to hell. Possibly in a hand basket :) Is hell a literal lake of burning sulfer? Probably not. Its probably more like separation from God. In the end you'd be getting what you wanted all along.

We have a choice to accept God or to reject Him. Each choice yields different consequences.

I have a qustion for you flash.

____________________________________________
there are just somethings in my life I am not willing to give up that the bible calls sins...
____________________________________________

Do you not think that if God did create the entire physical universe he is a bit smarter than we could ever be? He gave us our conscience and laid down certian rules and regulations. Don't you think he would know what is right and what is wrong a little better than we could? I've changed my mind about a few things. I disagreed with the bible in a few areas but I had to come to the conclusion that I was wrong and God was right. Logic tells me that God knows more than me and sees things better.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Back to the bank robber thing. God isn't just giving you once chance or 2 or 3 like a bank robber will. He gives you an entire lifetime that is filled with tons and tons of chances to accept him.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Ok Vinnie... I appreciate all the time and effort you have put into replying..I sincerely do... Let me clear something up for you though.
I do not believe in the God that is described in the bible... second, I believe that Jesus was a man..and was real..but not the son of God...
So for me..it is not a matter of being convinced that Jesus is the truth, life, and way...and don't worry about the sin thing...
as if I believe in him..cause I don't.
I am 100% sold on the Spirit of Truth though... for me this Spirit is my main focus.

I know that flash. My whole post was based on an 'if.' A big 'if' as you put it :)

________________________________________
...and don't worry about the sin thing...
as if I believe in him..cause I don't.
________________________________________

The sin thing question I asked also came from the 'if' perspective. I wanted an answer that assumed this 'if' was true. It was kind of like my original post. Just another question added to it.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

ok, ok, ok..you got me there :)

umm..what can I say LOL

Flash,

I do not consider myself bullied because God gives me information and allows me to decide for myself.

Each time I read your phrases: Spirit, Spirit of Truth, Spirit of the Truth, etc... I think of God, who is all of those things. Thank you.

In the words of Jesus Christ:

"But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."

I think you're borrowing from God here, Flash. By the way, notice that there is no "requirement" to worship God. If you are going to worship God, though, it must be done in the Spirit of the Truth! :)

Each time I read your phrases: Spirit, Spirit of Truth, Spirit of the Truth, etc... I think of God, who is all of those things. Thank you. hmmm.. how am I REALLY suppose to take that statement?
LOL

I didn't borrow that from God, TS.. come on now...LOL The Spirit of Truth (not God)
is different from your God in many ways...
and this spirit doesn't even seek worshipers.

Skye,


I think I'd get a new teacher.

That was not an option and you would not get your degree.

Unfortunately, limbo is not an option for you either. You know of God, of Jesus Christ and the way to salvation according to God's message.

If you choose to ignore it, then your only option is self-inflicted eternal damnation.

TS,
what you said to Skye is a touch much..don't ya think?

What if someone came out here and told you
about how your not going to heaven because it doesn't exist..so you are waisting your time and energy... to you.. that's false...
but... ahh..nevermind

Flash,

I just wanted to let you know that it sounds to me like you are speaking about God who Jesus referred to many times throughout His lifetime as the Spirit, the Truth, the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of the Truth.

Thanks.

In case you don't realize it, even though you are not "required" to do so, through your words here, you are "worshiping" the Spirit of Truth.

"Worship" is not a dirty word. :)

Flash,


what you said to Skye is a touch much..don't ya think?

"Much" for what? So that Skye might understand and choose to accept eternal salvation rather than eternal damnation?

I am spreading God's message as God called me to do, Flash. It is information given to us by God.

To all pagans, non-Christians, &c.

My only issue in this is "Why are we taking part in this discussion?" Certainly the question had something to do with Jesus, but it's addressed to people who are "going to hell in a handbasket".

Don't we have to believe in their Hell before we go there? And what of the proverbial handbasket? I've got an old Schwinn somewhere with a basket on the handlebars.

Despite the Jesus aspect, I don't think this was aimed at us. The topic post seems to indicate it's for believers in Christian Heaven and Hell.

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

tiassa,

In one of the threads about contradictions, Oxygen stated in a joking manner that he was going to hell in a handbasket. I believe that Searcher indicated that she was making the same trip... The title of this thread was a spoof of a spoof, so to speak.

C'mon tiassa, lighten up and join in the fun! :)

Truestory--

Actually, I am. But I understand why you might not recognize that, since God has not written my standards of fun.

Relax.

--Tiassa

------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

Tiassa~

Hey, good point! Y'know, I have one of those old Schwinn's too! A blue one.

The reason I joined up this little thread...uh...crap. I don't know. Boredom, I guess. :)

True'-

New teacher not an option? Okay, then I suppose I'd skip the degree. If I get a degree in absolute nonsense, what good could it possibly do me? I might as well sign up for one of those degree-mill type schools and get one a lot faster with a lot less hassle. The whole point of an education is to LEARN, not get some magical piece of paper.

Eternal damnation, huh? Well, I've heard "hell" is described as "separation from God" - if it's the Christian God that I'm being separated from, you won't find me tearing up over it. And if it's not the Christian God, then those rules are irrelevant.

Upon death, I look forward to having my energies randomized, and spread throughout this globe. I hope enough conciousness will remain that I can enjoy becoming a tree, a bolt of lightning, a dung beetle. I don't think it will, and that's where you'll find me tearing up. But it's inevitable, so I have nothing to do but live my life like each day is special, something to be enjoyed and treasured. I try hard to do just that. I take time each morning to think about how great it is that my back doesn't hurt that morning. If my back hurts, I think about how great it is my feet don't hurt. If my back and feet hurt, I think about how great it is that my knees don't hurt. Ad nauseum.

I'm nice to old people at the grocery store, I let people in front of me on the freeway. I feed my neighbors cats because I know she doesn't have money to do it herself. I pretend not to know that, though, and just 'sneak' the food into their dishes. She, in turn, pretends that I don't know either, and will say it's magic, even though she sees me do it. I pay my taxes and don't grumble about it. I stop for people on the crosswalk. I don't judge people for things they can't change. If this is for nothing, and I'm going to hell anyway...guess what?? NOTHING. I'm going to keep doing all of these things because according to MY rules, this is how one should behave. Not because I fear retribution, or Hell, or any other reason.

Moving right along... :)

So belief in Jesus would take a lot of urges away from me? Well, so would smoking a joint.

Here's something that JUST NOW was emailed to everyone at my company.

DESIDERATA by Max Ehrmann
"Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become bitter or vain, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And wether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

And me again - Nice, huh?

Skye,


If I get a degree in absolute nonsense, what good could it possibly do me?

Remember... you are the one who turned it into nonsense.


if it's the Christian God that I'm being separated from, you won't find me tearing up over it. And if it's not the Christian God, then those rules are irrelevant.

It's God. Period.

You seem to be a very nice person, Skye and I appreciate your sharing the good things that you do for others. That is the way that Jesus taught us to live. On the flip side, can you share your sins with us?


So belief in Jesus would take a lot of urges away from me? Well, so would smoking a joint.

No, not belief in Jesus, Skye... Acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior would give you a clarity of vision. Jesus Christ will show you the way to eternal salvation.

Smoking a joint my be fun, giving you a temporary, false sense of well-being. However, it also has a tendency to distort your perception of reality.

The high that one gets with Jesus Christ in their life is real and permanent.

Skye,
May I point out that all of the nice and good works that you do all are part of the message in the Bible? So you're following the laws of God, you're just not attributing the laws to Him, but to yourself, or the goddess or whatever.

Flash,
We've been through this discussion about a 1000 times, but you always want to take the perspective that God's laws are arbitrary. Simply made up so that we would have something to follow; to oppress or enslave somehow. These laws represent the key to peace and love and balance within our world and our society and universe for that matter. They foster the ideal state of existence for us. Not for Him; for us. How in the world can you have a problem with that? Just because you don't understand all of them? You should be able to at least start with the ones that you do understand, and find enough truth in there to keep you looking for a good long time. There are also a lot of Biblical principles that don't make as much or any sense if taken alone, in that they build upon other principles in assumption.

It really helps me to look at God's laws and sin, the effect of breaking them, as if they were like natural laws, and I do believe that this is true. It makes sense. There are natural laws at work all around us on this planet, and in this universe regarding anything physical in form. These laws in operation, and without interference or perversion keep the animals, plants, oceans, planet, solar systems, and universe in a state of equilibrium. What happens when we don't respect these laws and who made them? Take a look at the environment. Take a look at the giant hole in our ozone layer. Take a look at all of the species of plants and animals that man's greed is destroying at an exponential rate. Well, that's the same way I envision that God's laws work relating to our spirits as well. I equate all of the pain and sufferring and death in this world to pollution. It's the manifestation of sin, or upsetting the balance, or breaking the laws because we have NO RESPECT, and the reason why is because silly us, we think it belongs to us!!! The universe, the planet, the laws, our bodies, our fate. We mistakenly assume that these are all ours to claim for ourselves and use to satisfy our lusts and greed and egos. If we were to realize that none of that belongs to us but to God, things would be very, very different.

We think all this is ours? Well, we're not doing a very good job taking care of it. We think that WE decide what's right and wrong? Well it seems that we're not doing such a great job of that as well. I don't buy it. No way. It doesn't make LOGICAL sense to me.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Truestory--

Would it be too extreme to wonder if we might have just seen a breakthrough?

You wrote: "It's God. Period." And this you wrote in response to Skye's thoughts about a "Christian God", as such.

Could it be that you've figured it out? That God can exist, and there is nothing wrong in calling God by a name. But God cannot have one name, else there is another that It is not.

Believe me, once you're dealing with this idea more smoothly, the number of things we find to disagree on will reduce drastically.

It sounds like progress ... forgive me if I don't sniff it to make sure it smells like progress, too.

--Tiassa

------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

tiassa,

This statement was hard to follow... it seems contradictory to me...


But God cannot have one name, else there is another that It is not.

Please clarify.

PS - Drop the attempts at insolence, would you? It's not attractive at all.




[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 30, 1999).]

Truestory--

Don't cry :(, after all, you have the armor of God to protect you.

We've actually been through a variant of what you're asking before. Very simply, if you limit "God" to Father-Son-Holy Spirit, and the contents of of a one-volume anthology (okay, I'll give two volumes here) ... what of those things God is not?

But you've already dismissed that idea as insignificant and irrelevant. So I don't expect the question to make any better sense to you this time than it did last time.

--Tiassa

PS--Insolence? Once again you assume you know me better than I know myself. I'm starting to resent that arrogance. If you must know, it's probably the strain showing because I'm tired of wasting my time arguing insignificant side-issues that all come down to the same thing: That Truestory knows best. Insolence my eye.

PPS--I could start replying to everything you have to say with the same preposterous presumption you award others. Then we could just fill this board up with two-word posts. "Did not." "Did too." "Is not." "Is too." You've already revoked your license to cite history by dismissing it as insignificant to the present. What's next? Shall we dismiss medicine because it's irrelevant to Resurrection?

------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

Lori, Truestory -

Of course - these are good things in ALL religions, and that's a great point I'd like to highlight.

In my opinion, religions are made in part to be 'social grease'. There have to be rules in ANY society, even "free" ones. In primitive times, there was no government to make laws, there was only a god, or many gods and goddesses, or spirits, etc. (which meant a priest/ess, shaman, medicine man, etc. as thir representative) to show what was right and what was wrong.

We all agree these are good things to do, right? So why is it hard for us to accept that just about any religion that lasts will incorporate these VERY basic social rules? These rules are the basis of most religions, in some form or another.

Lori, Truestory, I think you guys have the right to love and cherish Jesus, and worship your God, and pray and whatever else floats your religious boat. I think I have the right to burn incense and worship my God and Goddess and wave my athame around and whatever else floats my religious boat. Within reason, of course. Abiding by these social rules that we all agree are reasonable. Which is a big part of both of our faiths, right?

Those social rules are so basic - it's the Golden Rule, the Wiccan Rede...I'm sure there are many other equivalents that I'm not even aware of. Treat other people like you want them to treat you. That's what it boils down to, right?

Lori - why can't I take the credit myself? I am the one choosing to do them, right? I would certainally take the blame for a negative action, why not the positive? Don't you? I do offer thanks that I am lucky enough to be in a position to give. But if I did not give, would I stay in that position long? Difficult to say. A hard heart makes life difficult.

Truestory - you asked me to share sins...well you'll have to clarify that one. Do you mean sins according to the Christian rules? Or do you mean when I've broken my own set of rules?

There are some things I won't talk about, of course, but I dont' mind sharing minor stuff. There are also some shining times I won't share either. :) I'm sure you understand.

Truestory, and some more for you. That one was getting too long..

Nonsense...well, that's kinda how I feel about this "My god is the only god" crap. Sorry, it's starting to bug me.

I mentioned this before, let me try again.

There are several gods. One of them is your god, you call him God. One of them is my god, I also call him God. Just like when there is two boys named Timmy in the room, you might call them "Timmy C." and "Timmy R.", to tell them apart. When I am talking about God, how else am I supposed to clarify which of them I am referring to? Call them "Your God" and "My God"? Just let me know how you want me to say it.

And that's the NICEST way I can tell you to knock that arrogant crap off. Whoops, did I say that?

Tiassa-

If I might - by saying that God has more than one name, can I take that to mean that you think God has more than one appearance as well - perhaps all the Gods, Goddesses etc. are just facets of one thing, seen differently by different people?

Kind of a leading question, :) , that's very close to what I feel is at least A truth. Maybe not THE truth, but at least part of it.

If I may go back to the original question about what I would do if God and Jesus were the real thing, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me. God rules through fear, fear of sinning, fear of going to Hell, fear of being cast into the lake of fire. God is worse than Bill gates when it comes to tyranny. "Use my O/S or your system won't work", q.v., "Worship me or I'll tear your soul out and feed it to the demons".

If God was truly all-loving and all-forgiving, then what I believe in wouldn't matter because he'd forgive me anyway without retribution of any sort. If, however, he insists on punishing me, then he is no better than anyone with a vindictive mindset and is unworthy of my respect.

I've heard the bit about a loving parent correcting their child. But if God has no faith in me, or in his system if he believes I have reason to never return to the flock, then why should I have faith in him? If all I face is retribution and punishment when I go home, why go home?

I walk this world in my own way. I am decent and respectful to people by default. I try not to hurt anyone, and I help out where I can because I believe "If not me, then who?" If that's not good enough for God, he can kiss my ...

You get the picture. I'm sure this will offend the faithful, but remember I am not telling you not to believe in God. I'm simply saying that I am very disappointed in the empty promises which tell me that God doesn't exist.

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

Ilgwamh,


The ten commandments and killing? There seems to be a slight difference between killing and murdering.

The hebrew word used for murder or kill, depending on the version you use, usually refers to a premeditated and deliberate act in the 10 commandments. It seems there is a differnce between killing someone so you can marry their wife and killing someone in war or in the case capital punishment.

Talk about missing the toilet bowl.



------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

Skye,

Before addressing your questions in my next post, please allow me to address the following first:

You state:


Nonsense...well, that's kinda how I feel about this "My god is the only god" crap. Sorry, it's starting to bug me.

Now, considering what I know about our God, if I were of the same temperment as you, would I not be bugged by the following statement?


There are several gods.

And, if I were bugged, should I then start flinging "crap" statements around about gods and goddesses?

I hope we can continue to participate in this religious debate without having to resort to "crap" statements such as the ones quoted both above and below and without lying to ourselves about how nice we are with statements like the following:


And that's the NICEST way I can tell you to knock that arrogant crap off. Whoops, did I say that?

If that's the best that you can do, Skye, with the help of all the gods and goddesses, and despite your belief in the 3-fold return of karma, perhaps you'd better rethink your new-found religion.





[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 30, 1999).]

I was impressed by the quantity of posts I saw when I got home from work. I only wish I could say the same thing about their quality.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Skye,

With respect to your question:


Truestory - you asked me to share sins...well you'll have to clarify that one. Do you mean sins according to the Christian rules? Or do you mean when I've broken my own set of rules?

If you would not mind, please share: Specifically, under what circumstances you would consider yourself to have violated a religious or moral law or "rule" as you put it. If you have a specific set of rules, other than the generalized variation of "do unto others..." I would like to hear what those rules are.

Thank you.

Vinnie,

I think it must be the solar flares, perhaps coupled with the Y2K thing coming to a head all around the world. Seems like tensions are running at an all time high right now for just about all of us. Just a thought, albeit kind of a lame one...

Anyway, I'd like to wish folks somewhere in the world a Happy New Year. It's still approximately 24 hours away for those of us in the U.S. Let us know how it went - okay? :)

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Oxygen,


But if God has no faith in me, or in his system if he believes I have reason to never return to the flock, then why should I have faith in him? If all I face is retribution and punishment when I go home, why go home?

Why do you feel that God does not love you? Why do you believe that all God wants to do is punish you?

From some of the things you have told me about yourself, Oxygen, it sounds like you are very Christ-like. However, it is also apparent that there is something missing in your life... and that is the love of Jesus Christ.

May I suggest that you try this... each morning, go to a quiet place, by yourself, and open your heart fully to Jesus Christ. Jesus loves you and WANTS to share your life with you. I promise you, He will not hurt you and you will not be punished. To the contrary, your sins will be forgiven and you will experience peace, joy, and more love than you could ever imagine. Like your relationship with others, Jesus is here to serve us and to help us. If not Him, then who?

There is no greater love than God's love for you, Oxygen.

I hope you don't mind... I will be praying that you find a right relationship with God through the love of Jesus Christ.

TS,


Much" for what? So that Skye might understand and choose to accept eternal salvation rather than eternal damnation?

Ok, your intentions are meant to be good..I will give you credit there. It's just...well..I just do not think it is right to state your way is the only way..and that all others are false. To me your way is 100%
false...but, I don't come out here telling you that you HAVE to follow the Spirit of Truth ONLY or you will go to some place of torture...which there is none- which is beside the point. I don't know..it just blows my mind how you guys think :confused:

Skye--

The way I've been seeing it of late is that concepts of God are supposed to contain all there is. Be it the God of the Hebrews, who created their universe, or the God of the Christians, who knows the whole of that universe, or the Goddess--as such--who is found in the intricate play of the universe .... (I could go on, I think. :))

If, for instance, God is all the universe and all it shall ever be, then we, as humans, have evolved to our present function and appearance because it is the only way we could have ... the universe, through its properties, and the conditions necessary for what we call life have determined humans to be bipedal with so many digits on each hand and a certain brain capacity, and so forth. Thus we are created according to the ways of the universe; if God is that universe, then we are created "in God's image".

I think people are free to call God what they want.

But I also believe that there is a reason humans exist in the universe. Even if that reason is simply to experience the life phenomena, it is a purpose. It would seem to me, then, that good and evil are determined in relation to that purpose, and there's the hard part. As I have no solid clue as to what that purpose is, I find myself in a moral quandary.

I think if we were to assemble a mosaic of all human faith and philosophy, and then pare away the excess and politics, we might find a few standards representing universal human ideas. These might not define the purpose of life, but they're a heck of a road-sign, in my opinion.

A friend of mine--a musician--sees the essence of God as a "perfect note". I, personally, have never heard this tone, and neither has he. In fact, the existence of this perfect tone is confirmed much in the same way Anselm confirms God ... that there is imperfection, there must be perfection. This note--this God--must exist, because all else godly to him falls short of ... of what example? An idea. But what dogma describes that faith? How to maintain a state of mind harmonious enough with the universe around him to continue to seek that perfect note?

But I think certain ideals permeate the human consciousness, and everything humans do or create reflect those ideals.

As for my own notion, I usually see God as the universe itself ... the metaphors apply well enough that most Gods can be contained this way. Perhaps our images of God are the way we seek our purpose in that universe.

If it makes sense, cheers. No, I don't see any real continuity in that mess of words. But God's kind of vague to me, so this might be the best I can do for now. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

Flash,

I am not talking about MY way.

It is God who has called me to spread God's message. It's not my "belief". It is not a threat. It is factual information.

God IS the Spirit. God IS the truth. God's message is given to everyone here in the Spirit of the Truth.

God gave us all life because God loves us all.

God is preparing the kingdom of heaven for all of us because God loves us all.

God is giving us this information so that we will all find our way to the kingdom of heaven... so that we can all dwell with God, the most loving, for all eternity.

Guess who it is that wants you to think that God is a big meanie? He wants you in his kingdom, too, but not because he loves you...

TS,
No, I do not speak nor interact with any
evil forces at all, TS. All my information comes from a very LOVING Spirit. There is NO
EVIL involved..not at all..it's about peace, joy, love, ect... Hope that clears things up.

Truestory -

You don't think that was nice? Well, I guess you just don't know how black my temper can really be. (Shrug) That was toned down about 99 degrees from what I would have said, if I had no restraint. But I try not to be a bitch, even when I'd really LIKE to be one. I suppose it doesn't come accross on most of my posts, I edit heavily before I actually put them out there, but trust me, that's about as much sugar as I could pile onto that pile of dog-doo. (Look! I cleaned that up too!)

The reason I'm objecting, True, is because you keep jumping back to this "MY God is the only God" - I'm just sick of it. To you, that is the only god, but guess what, there are millions of other people, billions of others that do not follow that god. Speaking from a global sense, there ARE many gods and goddesses, you might not believe in any of them, but to all these other billions of people, they are just as real as your god. If you can't see that, you must be blind. My god is just as real to me as your god is to you, and by you constantly insisting that my god can't even be called God, it's insulting.

So as a favor to me, pretty, pretty please, with honey and sugar on top, will you please knock it off?? In the spirit of love and compassion that Jesus was so fond of preaching about, can you give me a break? You are now aware that I find that personally offensive, so can't you ease off, just a little bit?? I do like debating with you, but if you keep insulting me, I won't.

NOW, regarding my personal set of morals - let me clarify a bit... My rules are not religious rules. These are rules I have been drawing up since I was about 14 and decided to run my life MY way, not anybody else's. These rules predate my religious beliefs.

Having said that, let me move on...here's a sampling of my values:

It is wrong to try to force your will or beliefs upon another. Debating, discussing, and sharing is acceptable, forcing in ANY way is wrong. (This is one I try to keep in mind when I'm posting here)

It is wrong to do something you know will harm another. Be it physical, mental, financial, emotional, or any other kind of harm, it is to be avoided at all costs.

It is wrong to treat children as less than human - they are people just as much as adults, and deserve the same respect.

It is wrong to kill animals. It is wrong to eat meat. It is wrong to wear leather.

It is wrong to be happy at another's misfortune.

It is wrong to brag.

It is wrong to be petty, in any dealings.

It is wrong to steal, not even post-it notes from work.

It is wrong not to take the blame for my mistakes.

It is wrong to wallow in self-pity after a mistake. Mistakes are to be learned from.

It is wrong to judge my fellow human until I have walked in their footsteps.

It is wrong to abandon those that depend upon you. This includes pets, relatives, friends...

It is wrong to harm Mother Earth. It is wrong not to recycle, it is wrong to pollute. Always leave nature cleaner than you found it.

That's a few of them, off the top of my head. These are by no means complete, but I think it's a good starting point.


Time's I've broken my rules?? Well, I've worn leather, in fact I have suede shoes on now. Terrible. I regret that. I could justify it by saying that they last longer than other shoes, thereby reducing landfill, but I know that's just an excuse. I bought them because they were cheap, and fit well. I have had bad dreams over these shoes, believe it or not.

Oops gotta run, more later.

Vinnie,

Is hell a literal lake of burning sulfer? Probably not. Its probably more like separation from God. In the end you'd be getting what you wanted all along.

Let's just see what the bible describes as hell... the hell your ever loving God wants to send others who do not join his team..
The following are things I have copied and pasted from a web page...where they are trying to scare others into accepting Jesus..of course they are only doing what the bible teaches that your God does...

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. . .” Luke 16:23

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE

The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am TORMENTED in this FLAME."

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

In Mark 9:46, Jesus Christ says about hell: "Where THEIR WORM dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The Bible describes it as weeping (Matt 8:12), wailing (Matt 13:42), gnashing of teeth (Matt 13:50), darkness (Matt 25:30), flames (Luke 16:24), burning (Isa 33:14), torments (Luke 16:23), everlasting punishment! Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Jesus says in Matthew 25:41: ". . . Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire, . . ."

Rev. 14:11: "The smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT."
(TALK ABOUT HOLDING A GRUDGE!!!!!!!!!..GOD IS MERCIFUL???? YEAH, LOOKS LIKE IT!)

Yeah ... just a mere separation from your LOVING God, huh???

SkyeBlue,
that was :cool: , it made me feel like an eiderdown :D

Happy Hippie new year
http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Skye,

OUR God. Not MY God, not YOUR God. God is not the God of who you call "the Christians" at the exclusion of all others. None of us are excluded from God. Whether we accept God or reject God, God is the God of us all.

I have never denied you your right to choose to worship the forces of nature which you have chosen to personify as gods and goddesses. I have never denied that such forces exist. They most certainly do, but they do not belong to you, exclusively, nor do they belong exclusively to those who choose to personify those forces as gods and goddesses. They belong to God and God's universe. They belong to us all. It is offensive to God, and therefore offensive to me, when they are referred to as God... as I stated previously, that is something which they are not.

When discussing this previously we did not discuss how each of us could communicate such differences in the least-offensive manner to each other in this forum.

So, to answer your question about how I would prefer that you speak of God vs gods and goddesses in order to convey your distinctions, I would prefer that you refer to God as "God" and that you refer to personified forces of nature, if you must, as "gods and goddesses"... I think that would be appropriate... it would be less offensive to God, and it would serve our efforts to communicate in this forum.

TS,
Just how the heck is that fair to Skye???
Can you not see how that sounds? You all just blow me away..big time! :eek:

What's an eiderdown????????? I've gotta know.

Skye,

So are you saying that you believe that the God of the Bible exists along with all of these other gods or what? See, that doesn't "fit" in my head or in my Bible either. See, our beliefs are mutually exclusive. It's either one or the other. We Christians can't help it that the Bible is so comprehensive in it's truth?! It explains EVERYTHING, even YOUR religion. Does your religion explain mine? Let me guess....close-minded ancient misinterpreted for purposes of oppression human dribble? Am I close? Well, I'm sorry, but I'M not dumb enough to accept such a lame-butt (my promise ;) ) explanation. It's not good enough. If you know ANYTHING about the Bible, it just simply does not stack up at all. Not even close. Learn more about the faith. I DARE you. I double-dare you. You will eventually see what I see. I guaaarrroonnteee.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick. :)

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 31, 1999).]

Truestory, I do not share that perception with you. I believe there are MANY Gods, and the Christian God is only one of them. I simply cannot say that any clearer!!

I'm sorry if that insults you, but it is my perception. I have tried to be inoffensive in demonstrating the differences I see, but I cannot change my view, nor would I choose to do so merely to satisfy you, or anyone else.

You, and those that share your faith, believe your God is the only god. I, and those that share my faith, do not believe this is so. What you are basically doing is completely closing off any thoughts of the way others believe - in which case I don't think we are 'debating' anymore, instead it becomes an 'argument'. I don't wish to argue with anyone here.

I say you have the right to believe in your God, and you and I do not believe in the same God. Should I change my words, and start saying that the God you cherish is nothing? I have given you this courtesy, why can't you give me the same? Is it threatening to you? Why can you not respect the differences in our faiths, and debate from there? You insist upon throwing away my beliefs as so much fantasy - while I may feel the same way about your faith, I at least have the decency to allow for your rights as an individual to believe what you think is right.

Shame on you, Truestory. I wouldn't treat you so unkindly.

Lori -

Do you even know what my religion is called? Wicca? Nope, that's not it! Try this one - why don't you study my books, then you can tell me what is and what isn't part of my beliefs. Try asking me before you assume. You have assumed incorrectly.

My belief is that there is a one power, an unthinking power. (Do these words sound familiar? I've said them before). We, as humans create gods and goddesses out of this power. Your books disagree with my books, so what? These books are written by fallable humans - even if God is dictating, people screw up. I believe your God does exist, as I've said before, I just don't think he is exactly the way the bible represents him. I think the bible is flawed.

Why don't you read some of my books - why must I read yours?? Or you can ask me questions, and I'll try to answer them. You disagree with me, fine, that's okay. Just try not to make assumptions about me, and I'll try to do the same about you. Deal?

Tab - you feel like a duck-feather quilt?? Kinda all warm and fuzzy-like? :)

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

___________________________________________
Let's just see what the bible describes as hell... the hell your ever loving God wants to send others who do not join his team..
The following are things I have copied and pasted from a web page...where they are trying to scare others into accepting Jesus..of course they are only doing what the bible teaches that your God does...

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. . .” Luke 16:23

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE

The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am TORMENTED in this FLAME."

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

In Mark 9:46, Jesus Christ says about hell: "Where THEIR WORM dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The Bible describes it as weeping (Matt 8:12), wailing (Matt 13:42), gnashing of teeth (Matt 13:50), darkness (Matt 25:30), flames (Luke 16:24), burning (Isa 33:14), torments (Luke 16:23), everlasting punishment! Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Jesus says in Matthew 25:41: ". . . Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire, . . ."

Rev. 14:11: "The smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT."
(TALK ABOUT HOLDING A GRUDGE!!!!!!!!!..GOD IS MERCIFUL???? YEAH, LOOKS LIKE IT!)

Yeah ... just a mere separation from your LOVING God, huh???
___________________________________________

I never said hell was a nice place to visit.

Do you honestly believe I failed to take biblical verses on hell into account when I said hell is more like separation from God than a literal lake of burning sulfer?

The bible describes hell as a place that isn't very nice. If hell is separation from God then the people there are given free run to do as they please. This means there will be lots of evil and wickedness floating about. If there were no rules or police officers in the world we would have a substantial increase in rape, robbery, murder, ad absurdom. Yet, this is what you wanted all along. No God and no rules. Don't forget to say thank you. Thats usually what you say after someone gives you something you have wanted for a long long time isn't it?

Do you honestly believe the streets in heaven will be made of gold as the bible alludes to? Gold does not rust. It is mentioned to suggest the timelessness of heaven and the preciousness of it.

"People who take these symbols literally might as well think that when Christ told us to be like doves, He meant that we were to lay eggs."

C.S. lewis Mere Christianity pg 122

On to the one true God. Why does everyone get so offended when Christians say our God is the one true God? It's always claimed that people should be free to worship who or what they want and christians should not knock them by telling them their God isn't real and that thier's is the only real God. Yet when this claim is made your guilty of doing the thing to us which you tell us not to do to others. We are just living out our religious faith. That faith says our God is the one true God. Let us live out our faith. Are we not allowed to worship our God? Our religion says he is the one true God. Are we not allowed to live out our faith? We can't accept the claim that there are more than one God and all religions are true. That claim isn't compatable with christianity. So look at the log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in anothers!


_________________________________________

If God was truly all-loving and all-forgiving, then what I believe in wouldn't matter because he'd forgive me anyway without retribution of any sort. If, however, he insists on punishing me, then he is no better than anyone with a vindictive mindset and is unworthy of my respect.
________________________________________

Was it vindictive of the court to sentance Ted bundy to death? Is it vindictive to send murdurers to jail?

__________________________________________
I walk this world in my own way. I am decent and respectful to people by default. I try not to hurt anyone, and I help out where I can because I believe "If not me, then who?" If that's not good enough for God, he can kiss my ...
__________________________________________

You may be a nice person by the words standards and so may I or anyone eles but the truth of the matter is that we are all sinners and need forgiveness in God's eyes. You may think your view of things is better than God's and he isn't being fair but if you logically sat down and thought that claim out you would realize it was nothing but pride that makes you say and think that.


Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Skye,

Chill. I'm not making assumptions about you, I'm asking you to explain some contradictions that I find with what you have explained to be your beliefs is all. Like I try to do with you about mine. I've studied about alot of different religions and beliefs. Maybe not in-depth enough to consider myself an expert, as I'm not even an expert regarding my own faith, but I get what you've said about it, and I'm telling you that it's contradictory, and just hoping that you would try to explain. First, where do your books come from? How is it that you find your books to be more credible than the Bible? Also, it is impossible to believe that my God exists along side many others that you've made up because of the prinicple teachings of Christian faith, so I guess what I'm suggesting is that you either believe He exists and He is what He is, or He doesn't exist at all. I'm just confused about this concept is all. I mean, do you think that my God is just an illusion that I made up in my head, or that our desires and thoughts actually manifest themselves into a real spiritual being? Because if that's true, then my spiritual being says He's gonna kick your spiritual being's butt. :) That was funny. :D

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick. :)

Skye,


Truestory, I do not share that perception with you. I believe there are MANY Gods, and the Christian God is only one of them. I simply cannot say that any clearer!!
I'm sorry if that insults you, but it is my perception. I have tried to be inoffensive in demonstrating the differences I see, but I cannot change my view, nor would I choose to do so merely to satisfy you, or anyone else.

I truly understand that you believe that there are many gods and that you believe that God is only one of them. Believe me, I get it and I am not insulted by that. What I was responding to was your question about how we could refer to God vs gods and goddesses, so as to be least offensive to each other while communicating in this forum.

Please allow me to use your following statement as an example of the compromise which I proposed:


You, and those that share your faith, believe your God is the only god. I, and those who share my faith, do not believe this is so."

If I have told you that I consider the existence of God to be a fact, and not a belief... that I have accepted God into my life... that I do not deny you your right to "believe" that there are many gods (and I really wish you would stop insisting that I am denying you that right, because I am not)... that it is my understanding that within the context of your belief in many gods, you also accept the existence of God without accepting that God is the only god... would you then have a problem say, revising your statement along the following lines:

"You, and others who have accepted God, accept God as the only god. I, and those that share my faith, do not believe this is so."???


Should I change my words, and start saying that the God you cherish is nothing?

In the interest of courtesy in debate, I would say that it would be better to say "nothing" than to refer to God as "crap".


I have given you this courtesy, why can't you give me the same?

What courtesy is it that you believe you have given me which I have not given you? limited restraint of your black temper... or, are you referring to your insistence that you are open and I am closed..??? As you know, Skye, simply saying such things do not make them so... it seems to me that your position is that you are fully open to anyone who agrees with you and encourages you in your new-found religion, but that those who express truisms which you do not accept, should be censored. On that note, thanks for sharing your rules, they seem quite noble. I know you said that it was only a starting point but, I am interested in knowing what your position is on lying... to yourself or anyone else.


Is it threatening to you? Why can you not respect the differences in our faiths, and debate from there?

What do you believe I should be threatened about? I see nothing. I do respect our differences and I do debate from there. What I am asking you to do is to also be respectful. If you want to be honest with yourself, look back to see how many derogatory remarks you have made to people who claim to be Christian, and then look back at how many derogatory remarks these same people have made about your new-found religion.


You insist upon throwing away my beliefs as so much fantasy - while I may feel the same way about your faith, I at least have the decency to allow for your rights as an individual to believe what you think is right.

I have listened intently while you have been developing your religion, Skye. Yes, I have asked questions and made suggestions about things to think about in the neophyte stages. However, I have never dismissed you in your beliefs nor have I ever denied you your right to believe what you want.


Shame on you, Truestory. I wouldn't treat you so unkindly.

Although I have done things in my life for which I was ashamed, Skye, I can assure you that this is not one of them. If you would only be so "unkind" to me.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 31, 1999).]

truestory- If I may quip a parable of my own: When I was little and couldn't balance too well, I had training wheels on my bike. They helped me stay upright. When I got bigger and could balance more, I took off the training wheels and never went back to them. The training wheels did not help me develop my balance. They only kept me from hitting the pavement when I lost my balance. I could have learned without them just as easily. They only kept me from getting hurt.

Likewise, when I was little and asked big questions, Jesus was my training wheels. The answers did not put me on any path, they only kept me from discovering truths I was not ready for and answers too heavy for me to carry. When I got stronger, I put Jesus away and dealt with the truths and answers. Jesus has done nothing for me except to keep me from hitting the pavement of the life before I was ready for it. He did his job, now it's time to put him away.

I understand that some people are not ready to takeoff the training wheels. They are not ready to take the hits. Perhaps it is best for them. Only they know for sure. As for me, I feel I no longer need them. Only I know for sure.

I appreciate your kind thoughts. They are always welcome. There is a church in Campbell, California, that has a candle burning in my name. All I did was to restore the luster and jewels of the crown on their statue of the Holy Virgin. It was one of the ones that travels from home to home of the faithful. It ended up at a friend's house. I thought the condition of the crown was a crying shame, but nobody in the congregation had the skills to fix it. I took the crown home and returned it the next day, gleaming gold and jewel encrusted with parts from broken jewelry. When they found out I was an atheist, they asked if it would bother me if they burned a candle in my honor or would I rather have money. I told the priest to use the money for the poor. A candle wouldn't bother me at all.

I'm still going to hell in a hand-basket, but I think it'll be a soft landing. Or is it a case of "Blessed if I do, Blessed if I don't?" ;)

Lori -

You're not making assumptions? I thought that's what this was:
"Does your religion explain mine? Let me guess....close-minded ancient misinterpreted for purposes of oppression human dribble? Am I close? Well, I'm sorry, but I'M not dumb enough to accept such a lame-butt (my promise ) explanation. "

I don't see where I ever said that, maybe you're confusing me with someone else??

Anyway... I think my books are more valid than the bible FOR ME. My books speak of things that I have felt were true my whole life long. Is that a mere coincidence, or have I somehow gotten in touch with something as ancient as mankind? I don't know yet.

As I grow and live my life, I form a picture of the universe, and how it all fits together. I revise it and re-think it constantly. I learn something new, and modify my theory to fit the new 'facts' I have discovered. The bible doesn't 'fit' into what I believe is true - therefore it is invalid TO ME. It does 'fit' what you believe is true - so for you, the bible is valid.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy that will work, but I'm slow today. Got about 3 hours of sleep last night and my brain feels kinda frozen. But you see what I'm trying to say, I think.

Let me just say this: If you were to come up to me 2 years ago and tell me I'd be practicing witchcraft, I would have laughed at you. I didn't see this coming, I thought I had a unique perception of the world. Imagine my surprise when I stumbled accross an Old Religion that fits SO perfectly with my perceptions!! Something that has been around since before anybody has record of it, something so basic to human nature... Beautiful. I thought I'd never call myself religious, but here I find myself addressing a God and a Goddess, and asking them to guide my feet on the path I have found. Quite a turn around for me. I used to call myself 'atheist', then got honest and modified it to 'agnostic'. Now, I call myself a believer.

The only thing ANY of us can do is follow what we believe is right. We believe two different things are right, who is to say one is right and one is wrong?? You have books that say one thing, my books say another. I have thoughts and proofs that indicate I am right, you no doubt have thoughts and proofs that indicate you are right. Am I going to say you are wrong for following your heart? NO!! Lori, you love your God, and I'm happy for you. I hope that brings you much happiness and peace. That's what we all deserve, in my opinion. If my beliefs bring me happiness and peace too, well...I don't see any problem with the two co-existing.

Here's another way of putting this whole my god, your god stuff. What if there is one God, and he appears to people in the way they will best understand him? So to you, he appears as the Christian god, and reassures you that he is the only one. And then he appears to me as a loving couple, because that's what I'll relate to. Does that mean he was lying when he told you he was the only god? No! God, at least in my opinion, has the ability to don many appearances. When I speak to the Goddess, and then to the God, am I really speaking to two separate entities? No! I am speaking to the same thing - the universe, the All, the life force, whatever you want to call it. I just relate to that power better if I symbolize it's existance with the male and female figures I am familiar with. Two buckets, but full of water from the same ocean. I believe the Christian God is yet another bucket, maybe a different color bucket than the ones I'm used to, but also filled with the same water from that same ocean.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone (Truestory!), but this is my 'truth' - this is what I percieve and feel. I cannot change my view merely because it doesn't agree with someone else's.

True'-

Criticizing Christians is different than criticizing Christianity. I've said many times that it's not the faith itelf that bothers me, it's the attitude of the followers. If you want to criticize me personally, go for it, I can take it. If you want to criticize what I believe in and act like I am the one that made this whole religion up...that's something else! That'd be some trick! Most of these books I'm reading were written well before I was born, and match things I developed all on my own. I don't remember projecting myself astrally from my mother's womb and writing these...

And I did not call your God "crap" - I called the way you were talking crap. Very different.


The problem I have with the way you reworded my quote is that, again, if I say "God", am I speaking of the God that I percieve or the one that you percieve? They appear to be quite different. If I say God appeared before me this morning...it means something quite different to me than thas same statement would mean to you. I did see God this morning - his symbol, the Sun. I didn't see the Christian God this morning, nor any of his symbols. See what I'm trying to say?? You believe he is the only god, so when you say "God", it's perfectly clear what you are talking about. Not so when I am speaking, due to my polytheistic beliefs.

I am not open to just anyone who fully agrees with me - you'll notice that Oxygen has a totally different set of symbols and beliefs, but she doesn't try to tell me mine are nonsense. Have I ever told her she was wrong? Have I ever told anyone they were absolutely wrong, and I was right?? I don't think I have, I try to be very careful to add "in my opinion" or "my belief is". The way you live might be wrong for me, but if it's right for you, go for it.

I am closed to those that believe they have the right to tromp all over other people's faiths, mine or anyone elses. What could I learn except intolerance from someone like that?? I am hoping you aren't one of those people, Truestory. I do like you, you're a bit bull headed, but so am I.

Regarding lying - I would classify that with harm. If lying to my mom and saying, "No, you don't look a day over fourty!" would cause her harm, I wouldn't say it. But I know her looks are important to her, so I hug her and tell her she's beautiful, even though age isn't treating her very well. (Oh, man, I hope she doesn't ever find this forum!) Lying to myself would only cause me harm, so I try to avoid that. Are you under the impression I am lying to myself?? About what? The God and Goddess? Nature of the Universe? I'm unclear on what that meant.

If you'll notice, I have tried sincerely to answer the legitimate questions you ask me. I have posted my little list of rules for your perusement, and have been answering questions about them. You are the one stating things like "Its God, period". No, not period. Maybe for you, but not for me. THIS is what I object to.

Skye,

Your beliefs, expressed in a respectful manner, do not offend me.

Skye,

What about Jesus? How do you explain the Bible? How does your faith reconcile the Bible is what I want to know. I ask this because the Bible reconciles yours, and I just think that is a valid point to make. Never stop asking questions and seeking the truth. That is definately a good thing. You'll find it, just don't stop looking.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Lori -

I believe Jesus did exist, but was a mere mortal, just like you and I. I'm sure he had lots of wonderful things to say, and other than the religious aspects, I think I probably agree with much he had to say.

The bible I see as a series of moralistic stories. Some good, some bad. There are certainally a lot of good lessons contained within those covers, that I can say. I just don't believe it is THE truth, and the only truth. I think it could be A truth. (Does that make any sense? I think I'm describing it poorly...let me know) Aesop's fables are also a set of good stories, I just don't believe they are "true" per se either. True in message, but not in detail.

Skye,


You are the one stating things like "Its God, period". No, not period. Maybe for you, but not for me. THIS is what I object to.

I heard you the first time... You object to my making a statement which you disagree with. You somehow find my statement in contrast to your new-found belief to be offensive.

Yet, you feel perfectly comfortable in repeatedly making the statement that "There are many Gods."

Does that mean that I have the right to object to your statement, "There are many Gods," call it "crap" and insist that you were unkind and close-minded because you continue to make that statement?

I could be wrong, but based on what I have experienced previously, I believe that if I were to object, you would call me unkind and close-minded.

That, though, is not WHY I don't object. I don't object because this is the type of forum where such statements are appropriate and I am not going to object to your right to state your religious belief.

Yes, I might disagree with your statement, as you do to mine, that does not mean that I am unkind or closing myself off from understanding your belief.

What I do object to is disrespect and trying to make someone out to be a shameful person because they disagree with you.

As a matter of fact, you have flip-flopped your position on a number of matters over the past couple of months and it would be very difficult for anyone not to disagree with you.

For example:

It was not too long ago, Skye, that you criticized any organized religion, and, in particular, an entire belief system... Christianity... which you now say is not your problem (is that because you have now found a "religion" which you don't want others to criticize the way you did theirs?) You now say that your problem is with the "followers."

With respect to Christianity a short time ago, your statement was:

"My beef is with Christianity, not the God, because I don't believe it/he/she/whatever exists."

At that time, although you complained bitterly and disrespectfully about God and the negative things that you believed that He (who you claimed did not exist) had done to you and others, you at least had the respect to speak about God with capitalization.

Also, at that time, you expressed a disbelief in ANY god.

Shortly thereafter, however, you started believing that MANY gods existed. In the beginning of THAT change in your belief systems, you at least had the respect to continue to refer to God with capital letters and gods and goddesses with lowercase letters.

Now, that too has changed. You now choose to elevate gods and goddesses to the level of God.

There are quite a few others changes that I could discuss, Skye, but I think you get my drift.

I brought up the question about lying to yourself and others, because I think you need to address this with yourself.

Just my opinion, Skye, based on what I have been observing.


P.S.

Sorry for adding to the length of this post, but there is something else that I would like to put to rest with you... You seem to be hung up on a "nonsense" comment and somehow attribute it to my having called your beliefs "nonsense." Review the thread, that was not the case. What DID happen was that you took an analogy of mine about God and twisted it into an unrecognizable state and then indicated that you would not want to get a degree in such "nonsense." I pointed out that it was you who had turned the "analogy" into "nonsense." It was not directed at your beliefs!


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 31, 1999).]

<img src ="http://www.newcreations.net/3d/images/bluenotes/note5w_ss.gif">

Who made who, who made you?
Who made who, ain't nobody told you?
Who made who, who made you?
If you made them and they made you
Who picked up the bill, and who made who?
Ain't nobody told you
Who made who, who turned the screw?


Don't mind me - just in a bit of a musical mood today... ;)



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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Oxygen,

Thanks for the revealing analogy! :)

My experience has been quite different, in that Jesus came into my life in a much more mature state.

Perhaps he got bored sitting in the drawer, or where ever it was that you put him... LOL !!!

Anyway, if you don't mind my asking... If He had served you well up to a certain point, what was it that caused you not to continue to grow "with" Jesus? What was it that caused you to believe that his service was no longer of any value to you?

True'-

I will be the first to admit that my perspective has changed since I have first begun posting here. What you are pointing out is merely the progression of my beliefs.

When I didn't believe in your God at all, who cares if I was posting with a capital "G" or a lowercase one? I was referring to what I believed was a myth anyway. "God" is a name, as far as I'm concerned, and should be capitalized when speaking of someone (something) by that name.

I have grown a bit, and now believe that your God does exist, though not in the form you believe he does.

Before I didn't believe in the God and Goddess (MY God and Goddess) as I do now. If we are talking about respect, I now capitalize my dietie's names due to respect to them. Now I DO believe in God, just not the one you believe in. Therefore I find a need to specify "your God" or "the Christian God" because I now see there is a difference. I am not in any way trying to diminish your beliefs, just trying to be clear in a forum where the word is all you see, no body language or inflections are available to clarify meaning. If I were to begin to refer to God, meaning the one the Jewish favor, or the Hindu, or any other besides your own, would you feel I was being disrespectful by saying "The Jewish God" or "the Hindu God"?

I do not 'choose to elevate gods and goddesses to the level of God', as you put it. I just now percieve things differently, and see our respective dieties to be different sides of the same coin, so to speak. I have not elevated anything, I don't have that kind of power to promote or demote the gods. Have I ever called your God by a lowercase letter? Aside from when I am speaking of him as "one of the gods"? If I have, it was not intentional - God is the name for your diety, as I have mentioned before, and in that sense it should be capitalized. I think your objection might be that I lump him in as "one of the gods", when you believe ("know") that he is the ONE "God", above all others. That is NOT my perception, and if I were to begin acting like it was, I'd be lying.

The other quote, where I said I had a problem with "Christianity, not the God...", well, you got me there. I think I was referring to the followers rather than the faith at large, I don't really remember, but I think I misspoke myself there. And, at the time, I didn't believe in your God. I still don't like a lot of the actions and rules attributed to the Christian God, but I am beginning to think that that's mankinds distortions of the true message. I also was experiencing a bad bit of luck at that time, and was excessively bitter. I certainally apologize for that. (I mean it, I'm not being sarcastic)

You have seen a big change in me happen in just the duration of my posts here. Maybe that makes me seem unstable to you, maybe not. You can see for yourself that I am still learning, still developing my world-view. I will probably never stop. I have a lot to learn still, this world holds mysteries I will probably never crack. But I'm going to keep on striving to learn more, and if that means I change my mind about things every now and then, I'll just have to learn to live with that. I'm not going to stick to any one theory when it becomes outdated or disproven, even one of my own.

So when you ask me to check myself for honesty, I can tell you pretty confidently that I am more brutally honest with myself than I would ever think to be with anyone else. I know I've made mistakes, I certainally never claimed to be perfect. I'm sure I've caused you grief, and that was not ever my intention.

There, see? I told you I could take personal criticizm! :)

<img src ="http://www.newcreations.net/3d/images/bluenotes/note4_ss.gif">

Okay - here's one more appropriate to this thread: ;)

No stop signs, speed limit
Nobody's gonna slow me down
Like a wheel, gonna spin it
Nobody's gonna mess me round
Hey Satan, payed my dues
Playing in a rocking band
Hey Momma, look at me
I'm on my way to the promised land

I'm on the highway to hell
(Don't stop me)


(Just trying to lighten it up a bit, ya'll!)



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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Skye,

Thanks for your response. Rather than to continue to focus on differences, I'd like to focus on things in common. Maybe this will help.


. When I speak to the Goddess, and then to the God, am I really speaking to two separate entities? No! I am speaking to the same thing - the universe, the All, the life force, whatever you want to call it.

When I speak to the Father, and then to the Son and then to the Holy Spirit, am I really speaking to three separate entinties? No! I am speaking to "God, Our Creator", to "Jesus, Our Lord," to the "Spirit of the Truth" or whatever name you want to use to describe the Omnipotent One.

If you accept the similarity, why then, do you consider your religion to be polytheistic and Christianity to be monotheistic?

Searcher,

Before I forget... Thanks so much for the music!

I am on my way out to New Year's Eve dinner with hubby, family and friends.

Please pray that it is not my last supper! :eek:

On a more down-to-earth note... May this coming year be the most wonderful that you have ever experienced! :)

Thanks again and... God Bless Everyone!

You're welcome, TS! Drive safely - it's crazy out there!! If I don't hear from you again tonight, have a safe and happy New Year!!

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Well Vinnie, I'm glad it DOESN'T EXIST!! ;)
I was just trying to point out how LOVING and FORGIVING your God is...and while I'm thinking about it- TS, OUR GOD??? NO, NOT MINE.... Anyway, you and others have so quickly jumped to make excuses for YOUR God's actions.... "ohhhhhhh...the bible is not to be taken literally.... God is love...God is peace...joy.. blah blah blah"

Yeah??? You totally came up with a lame answer regarding the kill/murder thing too.
Sorry, but when your God flooded the earth...
not only did her kill/MUDER the sinful adults! It would also be every CHILD...every
BABY! Talk about one low-life pissed off God to actually take the life of a CHILD or BABY. Yeah, I know...there is an EXCUSE for that one too, right? ;)


Why does everyone get so offended when Christians say our God is the one true God?
Wow...like I don't know. :confused: Maybe it has to do with the fact we do not like the greater than thou superior pompous attitude, dude.

Searcher,

Originally posted by Searcher:
Tab - you feel like a duck-feather quilt?? Kinda all warm and fuzzy-like? :)


exactly! http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Searcher,

And I was so hoping that we could just leave AC/DC back in the last millenium. Woe is me. :( Those three chords they know are getting soooooooooooo old. They weren't even good when they were popular? You'll have to excuse my ranting, but I live in a redneck town that has really sh oops crappy redneck radio. It's frustrating. :)

Happy New Year everybody! Weren't the celebrations around the world cool?????

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited January 01, 2000).]

Sorry Fluffy, wouldn't know about the New Year's celebrations around the world...was too busy listening to AC/DC play the only 3 chords they know. ;)

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Fluffy!? AAAACCCKKKKTTUUHH! Sorry, hairball. :D

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Well, it looks like ExoSci was Y2K compliant! Horay! (Pat on the back for you, DaveW)

True'-

Lesse, monotheistic vs. polytheistic. Well, I have heard Christianity commonly defined as monotheistic over and over...

I thought the take was that those three (son, father, holy ghost) were part of a single God. I think the difference might be that I percieve two Gods (one God, one Goddess) that are part of something even larger. I wouldn't call this life force, or "All" a diety or God, just a force, like gravity.

Hey, does this mean we're friends again?