No shit, he has found Jesus' coffin along with Mary Magdalena's.

http://time-blog.com/middle_east/2007/02/jesus_tales_from_the_crypt.html?iid=chix-digg

"Cameron is holding a New York press conference on Monday at which he will reveal three coffins, supposedly those of Jesus of Nazareth, his mother Mary and Mary Magdalene. "

I'll wait to see the evidence, but that is pretty scandalous.

Its a good movie tactic, really. Atheism is hot right now, so is hollyweird fascination with religious movies, ever since Mel's little gem netted over $100million in 3 day weekend. Besides how the hell is DNA testing going to prove it was Christ? Do we have any DNA evidence that he existed at all?

If it weren't inherently harmless, like The daVinci Code, it wouldn't be in the MSM.

There is a book that truly will put an end to the Christian religion, eventually. It's called Caesar's Messiah, by Joseph Atwill. Reading it was one of the most thrilling experiences I've ever had.

Besides how the hell is DNA testing going to prove it was Christ? Do we have any DNA evidence that he existed at all?
http://inhisname.com/ChurchSupImage/Bread/1_3-8%20thick.jpg
I like to call them Christ Chex, or Catholic Crunch, just pour them in a bowl, add milk, and you have a delicious breakfast food, as well as Christ's DNA!

I get it. Funny!

From the website of the Belfast Telegraph:


But prominent Jerusalem archaeologist Amos Kloner, who officially oversaw the work at the tomb, dismissed the claims.

"It makes a great story for a TV film,'' the professor reportedly told The Jerusalem Post. "But it's impossible. It's nonsense.'' (BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/ireland/entertainment/article2303537.ece))


I would urge everybody to bear in mind the wisdom of the late Douglas Adams:


"The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

"'But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

"'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.

"'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing. (The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (http://flag.blackened.net/dinsdale/dna/book1.html))

What? What better opportunity to drag out the classic Adams?

If it weren't inherently harmless, like The daVinci Code, it wouldn't be in the MSM.

There is a book that truly will put an end to the Christian religion, eventually. It's called Caesar's Messiah, by Joseph Atwill. Reading it was one of the most thrilling experiences I've ever had.

*************
M*W: Well, I would praise god if there was one, but since there's not, I can finally... rest in peace knowing that there is someone out there who actually reads extra-biblical material!!!

Atwill's book opens the eyes of the blind. His comparisons between Christianity and the events of the Roman Empire are just too coincidental to dismiss.

You might also be interested in Francesco Carotta's, Jesus Was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity: An Investigative Report, ASPEKT, 2005. Same theme, more detail. I order most of my books at Amazon.com and get the used ones, if they are available.

I'd like to have more conversations with you on this subject!!

CM would make an interesting presentation for a comparative religion class, don't you think? Or the whole topic of whether Jesus, or other gods and god-men (e.g. moses) are based on real people or are purely mythological. One could start out on old gods that no one believes in anymore anyhow, then ask why should Jesus and Mohammed be any different.

MW I look forward to many discussions regarding CM with you. I think it's important that word about it gets around, and at the moment it appears it is being studiously ignored by MSM.

I have yet to read the Carotta book but plan to get it and at least skim it eventually. Atwill is even quite charitable about it and says some elements of Julius Caesar's life may have been borrowed by the writers of the NT. But it would seem that the Atwill version has to be the right one, based on chronology and so many other considerations as you must be aware.

What's a little disturbing is Fox's response board...a long list of people that decry Cameron and poo-poo his documentary. They can't even imagine the possibility that the bodies might actually be connected to the founding of christianity.

Those Fox viewers are not going to enjoy this movie, then:

http://www.fofilm.com/php/index.php

CM would make an interesting presentation for a comparative religion class, don't you think? Or the whole topic of whether Jesus, or other gods and god-men (e.g. moses) are based on real people or are purely mythological. One could start out on old gods that no one believes in anymore anyhow, then ask why should Jesus and Mohammed be any different.

MW I look forward to many discussions regarding CM with you. I think it's important that word about it gets around, and at the moment it appears it is being studiously ignored by MSM.

I have yet to read the Carotta book but plan to get it and at least skim it eventually. Atwill is even quite charitable about it and says some elements of Julius Caesar's life may have been borrowed by the writers of the NT. But it would seem that the Atwill version has to be the right one, based on chronology and so many other considerations as you must be aware.

*************
M*W: Yes, it is important that the word gets out. I've certainly tried to do my part on this forum.

I believe all the hero myths came from ancient humans viewing the night skies. In a way, it was the first connect-the-dots game. All heros came from the skies as well as all religions.

I agree that some elements of Jesus' life were borrowed from Julius Caesar's life. There's just too many coincidences not to take notice. If nothing else, it made for interesting literature.

Atwill certainly did his homework, and fortunately CM is not a difficult read. I look forward to delving deeper into this theory.

No shit, he has found Jesus' coffin along with Mary Magdalena's.

http://time-blog.com/middle_east/2007/02/jesus_tales_from_the_crypt.html?iid=chix-digg

"Cameron is holding a New York press conference on Monday at which he will reveal three coffins, supposedly those of Jesus of Nazareth, his mother Mary and Mary Magdalene. "

*************
M*W: James Cameron found a hot topic to create an epic about. Not that I didn't love Titanic. It was so well done. If Cameron can write a storyline about Jesus and MM, I'll go see it for the screenplay and direction only, but like his Titanic, I won't believe it. He's a genius. I respect his diligent work, but he won't be able to prove anything to me. Whatever he creates will be good for the cause, and I'll go see it.

Its a good movie tactic, really. Atheism is hot right now, so is hollyweird fascination with religious movies, ever since Mel's little gem netted over $100million in 3 day weekend. Besides how the hell is DNA testing going to prove it was Christ? Do we have any DNA evidence that he existed at all?

They have coffins with names on them, like "Jesus, son of Joseph", "Jephus, son of Jesus", "Mary Magdalene", "Matthew", etc..

One thing you could do, if you can get a DNA sample from each is to check a few relations. If Mary Magdalene and Jesus correlate too highly, it is more likely that this is a coincidence, and the relation between the two was brother-sister or mother-son. If they are unrelated, you have stronger evidence that the burial was due to marriage.

By checking all of the occupants, they could make sure that none of the relationships violate what would be expected. That's my guess, anyway.

One thing you could do, if you can get a DNA sample from each is to check a few relations. If Mary Magdalene and Jesus correlate too highly, it is more likely that this is a coincidence, and the relation between the two was brother-sister or mother-son. If they are unrelated, you have stronger evidence that the burial was due to marriage.

That's exactly what they did and they were unrelated.

And Mary, Joseph, and Jesus, were very popular names at that time.

That's exactly what they did and they were unrelated.

Did they do DNA on all the occupants?

And Mary, Joseph, and Jesus, were very popular names at that time.

Anyone got the Vegas odds of "Jesus", "Mary", "Matthew", "Joseph" and "Mary Magdalene" all in the same tomb?

Add on this.... A sixth inscription, written in Aramaic, translates to "Judah Son of Jesus."

Also:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/02/25/tomb_arc.html?category=archaeology&guid=20070225073000

"Jacobovici, director, producer and writer of "The Lost Tomb of Jesus," and his team obtained two sets of samples from the ossuaries for DNA and chemical analysis. The first set consisted of bits of matter taken from the "Jesus Son of Joseph" and "Mariamene e Mara" ossuaries. The second set consisted of patina — a chemical film encrustation on one of the limestone boxes.

The human remains were analyzed by Carney Matheson, a scientist at the Paleo-DNA Laboratory at Lakehead University in Ontario, Canada. Mitochondrial DNA examination determined the individual in the Jesus ossuary and the person in the ossuary linked to Mary Magdalene were not related.

Since tombs normally contain either blood relations or spouses, Jacobovici and his team suggest it is possible Jesus and Mary Magdalene were a couple. "Judah," whom they indicate may have been their son, could have been the "lad" described in the Gospel of John as sleeping in Jesus' lap at the Last Supper.

Upon examining the tomb, the filmmakers determined a space exists that would have fit the "James" ossuary. Given the patina match and this observation, Jacobovici theorizes the lost burial box could, in fact, be the "James" ossuary."

Also:

"A possible argument against the Talpiot Tomb being the Jesus Family Tomb is that the collection of names on the ossuary inscriptions could be coincidental.

But Andrey Feuerverger, professor of statistics and mathematics at the University of Toronto, recently conducted a study addressing the probabilities that will soon be published in a leading statistical journal.

Feuerverger multiplied the instances that each name appeared during the tomb's time period with the instances of every other name. He initially found "Jesus Son of Joseph" appeared once out of 190 times, Mariamne appeared once out of 160 times and so on.

To be conservative, he next divided the resulting numbers by 25 percent, a statistical standard, and further divided the results by 1,000 to attempt to account for all tombs — even those that have not been uncovered — that could have existed in first century Jerusalem.

The study concludes that the odds are at least 600 to 1 in favor of the Talpiot Tomb being the Jesus Family Tomb. In other words, the conclusion works 599 times out of 600."




Basically, either a lot of people are lying now or a lot of people lied a long time ago.

I saw an expert on ABC say that about 800 incriptions with Mary, Joseph, and Jesus, have been found in the Holy Land, no news here.

And what DNA will they compare it to?

And Mary, Joseph, and Jesus, were very popular names at that time.

*************
M*W: Those are Anglicized names. The only title (not name) that was used in those days was the Egyptian title of "Joseph," which meant "vizier" similiar to "mayor."

You show your ignorance with every post you submit.

Ok then, the Hebrew renderings, lighten up Med Woman.

No shit, he has found Jesus' coffin along with Mary Magdalena's.

http://time-blog.com/middle_east/2007/02/jesus_tales_from_the_crypt.html?iid=chix-digg

"Cameron is holding a New York press conference on Monday at which he will reveal three coffins, supposedly those of Jesus of Nazareth, his mother Mary and Mary Magdalene. "

Good I hope the truth will finally be revealed and this will cause the rise of actual Christians, you know people who follow Jesus Christ not and the Church....

Ok then, the Hebrew renderings, lighten up Med Woman.

*************
M*W: Jeez! Let's see... if at the time of Jesus, and in the area he allegedly lived, Aramaic was the common language of the people. Names and titles would be in Aramaic, not Hebrew, but since the NT was written in Greek (not Aramaic or Hebrew), seems only logical that names and titles would be in Greek, not Hebrew, not Aramaic, but Greek.

You have such limited knowledge of your own faith, yet you come here to a predominantly atheistic forum thinking you're going to teach the rest of us something!!! Ha!

Ok then, Aramaic, the point remains the same, over 800 inscriptions with Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, in Aramaic, you still lose, Med Woman.

Well basically people can believe whatever they want(or were indoctrinated to), but it's not like most jews wanted to copy Jesus, most just thought it was another cult.

Maybe they will find out it is a copy-cat family. Pretty rediculous claim in my opinion Ice Age. Also the tomb is 30BC - 70 AD. So we are talking really 30AD to 70 AD for a copy-cat family. I think your reaching.

That's exactly what they did [DNA comparisons between samples] and they were unrelated.I'd like to see the citation to the published data on that. The whole thing smells of pseudoscience.

The ossuaries were originally discovered in 1980. 1980!? And not a single academic publication since then? One of the hallmarks of pseudoscience is to pitch your claim directly to the public rather than the academic community. Another is that the "discoverer" works in isolation (since 1980). I'm sure the next hallmark will be the claim that an establishment of mainstream archaeology is oppressing their work.

I'd like to see the citation to the published data on that. The whole thing smells of pseudoscience.

The ossuaries were originally discovered in 1980. 1980!? And not a single academic publication since then?

You know, I was excited when I saw this article, but as I read on, I remember having read it before, and then when it got to the 1980 part, wondered why it had gone quiet for so long.

But then the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' were sat on for a long time too, so maybe it isn't no news day?

I'd be interested in hearing your take when more data comes in Skin.

I'd have to concur with Skinwalker. As a man of science myself, some never before heard of discovery making it's way into the cinemas before a scientific journal some supposed 3 decades after the finding is simply not worth the attention. They claim "DNA evidence", and in my humble opinion not enough people are asking what the DNA is being compared to.

They found some "hobbits" recently and within two months it was in every scientific publication there is.. This has been 27 years and nobody has said jack shit and then consider the best possible way of presenting it to the world is in the cinema - along with Shrek 3 and Land of the Dinosaurs. Do me a lemon.

I'd like to see the citation to the published data on that. The whole thing smells of pseudoscience.

The ossuaries were originally discovered in 1980. 1980!? And not a single academic publication since then? One of the hallmarks of pseudoscience is to pitch your claim directly to the public rather than the academic community. Another is that the "discoverer" works in isolation (since 1980). I'm sure the next hallmark will be the claim that an establishment of mainstream archaeology is oppressing their work.

Indeed this is truely interesting part of this breaking story. They found these things in an Israeli storage for artifacts of some kind. I'm trying to find an online reference, but it was reported in the Toronto Star(which might not be correct). They found them(the canadian documentary people NOT James Cameron) while researching something else. I suspect maybe the Jews made a mistake, or a "mistake" by handing these over to them or letting them look at them.

Here we go:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3368731,00.html

"Decades of research

The findings in the cave, including the decipherment of the inscriptions, were first revealed about ten years ago by internationally renowned Israeli archeologist Professor Amos Kloner.




Since their discovery, the caskets were kept in the Israeli Antiquities Authority archive in Beit Shemesh, but now two have been sent to New York for their first public exhibition.



Although the cave was discovered nearly 30 years ago and the casket inscriptions decoded ten years ago, the filmmakers are the first to establish that the cave was in fact the burial site of Jesus and his family.

The film, which documents the stages of the discovery, is the result of three years labor and research. It will be broadcast on the international Discovery Channel, Britain's Channel 4, Canada’s Vision and Israel’s Channel 8, which also took part in the film's production.

According to the filmmakers, the film’s claim is based on close work with world-famous scientists, archeologists, statisticians, DNA specialists and antiquities experts."

Watch it and decide for yourselves i guess

*************
M*W: It's a hoax. Why would they wait 27 years to bring it public? Jesus didn't exist nor did MM. Things change, however. Just a few short years ago, I would have bet my life on its authenticity. Not any more.

Here we go:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...368731,00.html

"Decades of research

The findings in the cave, including the decipherment of the inscriptions, were first revealed about ten years ago by internationally renowned Israeli archeologist Professor Amos Kloner

Anos Kloner being the man that stated:

"the names found on the ossuaries were common, and the fact that such apparently resonant names had been found together was of no significance. He added that "Jesus son of Joseph" inscriptions had been found on several other ossuaries over the years.

"There is no likelihood that Jesus and his relatives had a family tomb," Kloner said. "They were a Galilee family with no ties in Jerusalem. The Talpiot tomb belonged to a middle-class family from the 1st century CE."

So, Amos Kloner and his "decades of research" came to the conclusion that it's all bollocks and has nothing whatsoever to do with the biblical jesus.

Next.

I'd like to see the citation to the published data on that. The whole thing smells of pseudoscience.

Hey, I'm not arguing.
I think it's all bullshit publicity and religious fervor, myself.

I was serious. I really like to see the published data on that :)

(I realize now that that's my canned answer to pseudo claims, but I really would like to see the published data -if it exists.)

Well the new spin on this is the probability study on those names - in the same tomb.

Snakelord's quotes from Kroner now have me doubting though. It's possibly a copy-cat family. Still even if it was common, isn't it interesting this copy-cat family's "Jesus" was MARRIED TO Mary??

Still even if it was common, isn't it interesting this copy-cat family's "Jesus" was MARRIED TO Mary??

Not specifically, no.

For 7 years, (not concurrent) Chloe was the most popular girls name on the planet. Jack has now been the most popular boys name on the planet for a total of 10 years. In the place where I work there are 5 other people with the same name as me - and that's in a company of perhaps 50 people. If we look at where all these 50 people live you'll find not only people very local but even some that live over 100 miles away upto 500 miles away, (admittedly they generally live in London on weekdays and go home weekends).

What we need right now is a top 100. Perhaps in 2000 years someone will dig up a box that says Elizabeth, Phillip, Charles and Edward and then come to the conclusion that it contains the remains of the queen and her family. What we now need to do is establish how common those names are in comparison to the timeframe. Was Mary or 'jesus', (which wasn't jesus as there was no 'j'), a common or seriously rare name? From our perspective Elizabeth and Phillip were very popular names given the time when the queen and her husband were named.

However, it needs to be understood that if this were jesus and his cronies, it will do nothing but harm christianity. The minute you find god's corpse, ressurrection goes out the window as does his supposed divinity etc etc. Without that there's nothing to keep a christian living with morals. While the rest of us have morals by choice, the christians have had morals through threats. When that means nothing anymore I can only start to worry at how this world is going to go down the shitter.

Here's a PDF file with some of the data claimed. I haven't had the chance to look it over carefully, but some of what I've noted so far is spurious at best, particularly with regard to the statistical methods.

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/explore/media/tomb_evidence.pdf

Again, the above is a PDF file, so you need to have Adobe Reader installed.


Moderator Note: I cleaned up the thread of the off-topic bickering. Please stick to the topic at hand or posts will be deleted. Repeatedly posting off-topic may incur a warning or infraction.

The statistical calculation seems a bit flaky...but not being a statistician myself, I wouldn't mind seeing an explanation. 600 to 1 in favour seems awfully probable to me :)

Discovery canada talked to the DNA guy(who specializes in ancient specimens), last night. They only gave him enough bone fragments to compare if "Jesus" and "Mary M", if they were related mitocondrially. They were not, however I wonder why they did not give him more material?

He said if they gave him more he could tell the sex of the bones(he did not even confirm the sex of "Jesus" and "Mary M"). He did not know "who" he was testing on. After they told him who they were...supposidly... he thought why not test Jesus VS Mary mother, Jesus VS JOSEPH father(VERY Interesting), Jesus +Mary VS Judah child?

Something is a fishy here. I still can't wait to see the documentary/drama, I admit I have been hooked in.

.... Do me a lemon.

Thankyou Snakelord, that is going to be my phrase for the day!

Do you think Cameron and his partners will end up pulling the documentary?

Some archaeologist at the Rockefeller museum is saying the documentary makes a mockery of archaeology, that Jacobovici is just pimping the Bible, and that the whole thing should be thrown out.

The producer is in court right now over another documentary, which the Discovery Channel also showed, I think it was the Ossuary of James.

Jacobovici interviews a statistician from the U. of Toronto who says the odds are 600 to 1 in favor that those were the tombs of the Biblical Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, go figure, and they call it science.

Yeshua(?)son of jehosef(is that right?), even in the pdf there is a question mark.

wtf is that? the first time i saw that looked like they were reallllly trying hard to deduct that scribblly chicken scratch , yet one or two others are clearly defined. has to be seen to be believed.

no think about this, oj simpsons dna became "tainted" in two weeks and they only had buckets of it. this dna comes from dust- now when did all this take place? over two weeks ago right? most people say it would not make sense for them top be buried there yet there is a movie? no, a documentery.

i could go on but it's too boring. this is why is say more need to be looked into with that evolution theory.

Some archaeologist at the Rockefeller museum is saying the documentary makes a mockery of archaeology, that Jacobovici is just pimping the Bible, and that the whole thing should be thrown out.

The producer is in court right now over another documentary, which the Discovery Channel also showed, I think it was the Ossuary of James.

Jacobovici interviews a statistician from the U. of Toronto who says the odds are 600 to 1 in favor that those were the tombs of the Biblical Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, go figure, and they call it science.

Rockefeller you say? Well that just scored 5000 points for James Cameron & friends in my opinion. Talk about injecting serious lies in science and history should be the Rockefella' Motto.

You know what I'm talking about. I'm pretty sure all of teh Christians are going to say they aren't, the less-than-faithful are going to say they are. One argument from the "they aren't" camp is that the names of "Jesus", "Mary", "Joseph", and "Judah" were some of the more common names at the time, while the "they are" camp says the odds of finding them all together is incredibly rare. They point out "Mary Magdalene" as the clincher.

I don't know. I think Cameron's just trying to make a living and has what could be a hot topic on his hands. But my question is this: If Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and Judah (let's leave Mary Magdalene out just for argument's sake) are such common names, how does anyone know the scriptures are written about the same people? If the names are so common, couldn't they be about any Jesus, Mary, Joseph and Judah? It seems to me that it would be like trying to link records going on Joe, Jane, Bob, and Tom and convincing people years after the alleged events that it's the same Joe, Jane, Bob, and Tom.

If I am not mistaken... 'Jesus' in ye' olde' Greek language is 'Zeus'... and why the tombstone didn't say 'Zeus'? Got me.

If it is real, then Jesus, despite what he has done, stood for, and said. Well, he's a fuckin genius for pulling it off.

Jesus > all of you.

He just had to say stuff, and even kings began to fear him. yall... well yall try to do half of what he did.

Hey neit, I think the Rockefeller museum would just as soon see evidence which discredits the Gospels, but they couldn't bring themselves to do it on this one.

(I realize now that that's my canned answer to pseudo claims, .....)Do you have any citations to research in a peer reviewed journal that could substantiate this self deprecating claim? :) ;)

I would like to know :

Who the [expletive deleted] renamed MY thread????

I did. There were multiple threads of the same topic being generated.

Please stay on topic and if you still have any difficulties with it, send me a PM or create a thread in the SiteFeedback subforum.

Sorry Syzygys . I did a quick look through the threads and didn't see any titles that leapt out about the subject. (Of course, I was on meds, and you know how that goes...) Are all of the original posts still in this thread? I thought mine had just been moved.

RickyH

Jesus > all of you.

He just had to say stuff, and even kings began to fear him.

Aside from the bible, where is there historical mention of him? (Seriously. I'm not just being snotty.)

OK, let's get back on topic.

I as an atheist find this new evidence refreshing, because this would be the first physical evidence for Jesus' existence. I personally don't care either way, but I could make a good argument that he never even existed....

So Christians, you should all rejoice!!!

Good point, Syzygys. If he DID actually exist, this would be the irrefutable proof (assuming they could absolutely verify any DNA) that would at least give some credence to things. But whether or not Jesus existed, who cares? Aren't at least most of his teachings good enough, whether or not they came from some wandering wise man or a fictitious character? It amazes me how many Christians worship the man while paying only lip service to his teachings.

Its a good movie tactic, really. Atheism is hot right now, so is hollyweird fascination with religious movies, ever since Mel's little gem netted over $100million in 3 day weekend. Besides how the hell is DNA testing going to prove it was Christ? Do we have any DNA evidence that he existed at all?

Yeah, well Mel Gibson's movie was a BLOCKBUSTER... this is a documentary... not the same thing moron. DNA doesn't prove it was Christ, it proves the Person found in the Jesus Tomb "Jesus son of Joseph" had a child... with Mariamne e Mara (Mary Magdelene) I think the evidence that Jesus did exist is the Amount of documentation... all of the Gospels... it really isn't a question of his existence but of his divinity.

Thomas

As a warning to those that might be tempted to follow the post above with a response: please stay on topic. Unless it relates to the alleged tomb of the alleged Christ, move discussion of the historicity of Jesus to: Scientific Approach to the Jesus Question (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=55229).

Aside from the bible, where is there historical mention of him? (Seriously. I'm not just being snotty.)

-letters of Pliny

"How do I deal with the legal proceedings involving Christians. They congregate and sing hymns to Christ as to a god. But unlike A god Christ was a person who had lived on Earth."


-writings of Josephus

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he wrought surprising feats. He was the Christ

-various Jewish rabbinical writings

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged" (hanged was a common synonym for being Crucified.)


-Lucian of Samosata

"The Christians…worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account"

I apologize skinwalker.


Anyways this is pretty much bullshit. Anyone can tell he's just doing it to get his name in the paper, a book deal on his desk, and a movie offer in his Fax tray. End of story.

just a question.....
isnt there a piece of "the true cross" floating around in some cathedral in france?
why not swab it for traces of ANY biological matter (other than wood, smartasses:p) and use that as a control?

whatever the result, its going to either punch a hole in a christian myth (one or the other), or prove cameron is at least on the right track.

however, seeing as the resurrection of jesus is central to catholic/christian faith, i doubt they would be allowed permission.
:(

Redefine91 I'm sorry, I should have been clearer. I was wondering about contemporary accounts, like court records, or anything that might have been written about him while he was still alive. I don't know if they've dated the sarcophagi accurately, but some written material, properly dated, if they correspond to the age of the sarcophagi, might be an arrow in the right direction one way or the other.

NEW DELHI: Discovery Channel has put off the screening of controversial documentary - The Lost Tomb of Jesus - following protests from various Christian groups in India and abroad.

The channel was to air the documentary produced by Oscar-winning director James Cameron that contradicts major Christian tenets such as resurrection of Christ on Sunday.

According to the documentary, the caskets used to store bones discovered in a suburb of Jerusalem may have contained the bones of Jesus and his family. Reports said names of Jesus, Mary Magdalene and other relatives were found on the caskets. The documentary also claims that Judah was Jesus’s “secret son” from Mary of Magdalene.

Cameron claimed that the ossuaries contained in the tombs that were used as coffins in the first-century Jerusalem were scientifically examined. According to the documentary, one of the tombs contained ten ossuaries belonging to the family of Jesus.

Earlier, archaeologists and clergymen in Jerusalem had trashed the claims.

Discovery Channel has put off the screening following protests by Christian groups in US, Canada, Jerusalem and India against the documentary.

Catholic Bishops Conference of India (CBCI), the apex body of Church in India, said documentaries of this sort will not go down well with anyone who respects religion and religious faith.

“The documentary is not based on proven historical fact. Historically speaking evidences closer to the event have more authenticity than evidences dished out after 2000 years. According to Biblical and non-Biblical sources, it has been believed that Jesus rose from the dead, and that is the basis of entire Christian faith and tradition,” said CBCI spokesman Father Babu Joseph.

Mumbai-based Catholic Secular Forum had also protested the documentary for “trivialising” the entire Christian faith.

Catholic Secular Forum general secretary Joseph Dias had sent out memorandums to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and information and broadcasting minister Priya Ranjan Dasmunshi expressing concern at the scandalous claims made in the documentary. The channel has expressed regret for inadvertently hurting the religious sentiments of the Christian community.

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/5x-0&fp=45eb5913b60a1923&ei=nz7rRfeKLcy2wQH32LCYBw&url=http%3A//dnaindia.com/report.asp%3FNewsID%3D1082975&cid=1113889362&npp=POP&sig2=piQCUM56twVyNVLoc1khmQ

"The documentary is not based on proven historical fact."
heh, I love the hypocrisy of Christians =]

The doc will premire tonight on the Discovery Channel, for us Americans who might be interested.

For you Euros, you can you know, get American television and stop watching Sky.

Christians sure are weak of faith, aren't they?

Gotta squelch that freedom of speech.

The doc will premire tonight on the Discovery Channel, for us Americans who might be interested.

For you Euros, you can you know, get American television and stop watching Sky.

they have discovery in belgium. :)

Nice show. Either way, we should do as much research as possible. Do a thorough excavation of both tombs and see what turns up. Preserve as much as possible for further advances in technology.

I'm always suspicious when "discoveries" are taken to the media where they then say "let the debate begin." That's completely backwards and, clearly, Cameron and Jacobovici aren't doing science but show business.

With science, you share the data with as many experts as you can in hopes that they will find flaws with your work before you publish. And then you take it to the media -after its been thoroughly vetted and published.

These guys cherry-picked their "experts" and haven't shared the core and essential bits of data. The epigraphy hasn't been vetted; the provenience of the ossuaries themselves are largely absent and deficient; and so on.

Whatever anyone wants to call the "Jesus Tomb debacle," it certainly cannot be called archaeology. This is pseudoarchaeology.

Whatever anyone wants to call the "Jesus Tomb debacle," it certainly cannot be called archaeology. This is pseudoarchaeology.

There was an hour of debate after the show, and one of the archaeologists referred to the show as "archae-porn". Showing the sexy side of science, CSI-style.

I do think it is unfair to expect a sensationalist journalist to act like a scientist, though. These guys are interested in the science, but they are journalists first, and want to sell their opinion. No harm in that. Church leaders do the same thing in Sunday-School each week.

Then why have scientists on the show at all?

If the claims of Cameron can be proven to be right, then it pretty much proved Jesus as:

1. A historical person.

2. As a dead historical person (read: not the Son of God).

3. As married to Mary Magadalene.

How can they prove that Cameron's claims are right?

I heard that the statistician on the show says that the odds are 600 to 1 for that those are their bones, go figure.

IceAgeCivilizations:

Statistics + genetics.

The genetics point to what would be expected from a family.

The statistics show how overwhelmingly likely it is that it is Jesus and his family rather than other people.

So you would bet 600 to 1 that those are Jesus' bones, okie dokie.

IceAgeCivilizations:

If the info is right: Yes.

I also think the whole thing is far too conservative. The real likelyhood is much higher. The 600 figure is the most conservative one they have: The real ones are in the tens of thousands to one.

"If the info is right." Right, if it is, but there is no indication that it is, so why bother?

I didn't see the documentary. I had more pressing matters to deal with, unfortunately. (Will they run it again?) Forgive me if I ask for the obvious. The DNA evidence would prove that these people are related, but does it prove their identities? Does it prove they're Mr. and Mrs. Christ?

I heard that the statistician on the show says that the odds are 600 to 1 for that those are their bones, go figure.

I think it was worded this way: The chance that those 4-5 names would occur together in the same family is 1 in 600.

That means something different...

I'm always suspicious when "discoveries" are taken to the media where they then say "let the debate begin." That's completely backwards and, clearly, Cameron and Jacobovici aren't doing science but show business.

With science, you share the data with as many experts as you can in hopes that they will find flaws with your work before you publish. And then you take it to the media -after its been thoroughly vetted and published.

These guys cherry-picked their "experts" and haven't shared the core and essential bits of data. The epigraphy hasn't been vetted; the provenience of the ossuaries themselves are largely absent and deficient; and so on.

Whatever anyone wants to call the "Jesus Tomb debacle," it certainly cannot be called archaeology. This is pseudoarchaeology.

*************
M*W: I couldn't agree with you more. I viewed the program with Jacobovici, and there's no biz like show biz.

The Israel department of antiquities doesn't have a good reputation either. They forged the James ossuary and sold it off as authentic knowing what they did was fraudulent.

Cameron's segway is nothing more than a slight of hand
trick. He's preparing his future audience for his upcoming blockbuster film. It's just a part of the act.

I give James Cameron a little more credit than Mel Gibson however. Gibson put his film out there as gospel truth. Cameron is just making preparations for another movie. I'm all for that. It presents yet another theory about the Jesus myth. Any information that can get to the general public to discredit christianity is a good thing, even though that doesn't make it real or credible evidence. If all the film does is raise awareness that christianity might have lied to the world, then it's worth it. It wasn't that long ago that I believed in the historical Jesus, MM and family. Now I look back and laugh at my foolishness!

Medicine*Woman:

However, let's assume the data is correct.

Shall you be revising your astrological thesis?

For it would seem that if this is not a hoax, it almost conclusively proves Jesus as a historical person in contradiction to some of the official gospels.

IceAgeCivilizations:

ALl the available archaeological evidence points to legitimacy.

Oxygen:

You cannot prove the identity of two people from their DNA without prior data, only their relation to eachother. In this case, the DNA supports their thesis.

Medicine*Woman:

However, let's assume the data is correct.

Shall you be revising your astrological thesis?

For it would seem that if this is not a hoax, it almost conclusively proves Jesus as a historical person in contradiction to some of the official gospels.

*************
M*W: If the data could be proven beyond all doubt to be authentic, then I would reconsider my stance, but I don't believe there is any possible way to prove those are the real bones of Jesus and family. There is just way too much evidence to the contrary. I believe Jesus will always be an astro-theological myth.

Medicine*Woman:

Surely 600 to 1 odds are beyond a reasonable doubt to doubt?

Again: If everything shows to be as legit.

The 600 to 1 figure was cited before they added in the "missing" ossuary of James as possibly coming from the same tomb (which was supported by the patina comparison). The extent of the "forgery" of the James ossuary was possibly ONLY the redaction of "Brother of Yeshuah" to the inscription.

It's funny... last time I posted on this forum, MW woulda been all over this as supporting her (then) view of MM as Jesus' wife, as well as the Mara Mariamne ("Master" Mary) inscription-- which tied in neatly with the Acts of Phillip. :bugeye:

Lots of interesting data points, though.

RickyH


Aside from the bible, where is there historical mention of him? (Seriously. I'm not just being snotty.)

Never found any, other than the bible. But even so, would you not agree he would have to be one of the most intelligent humans alive

The 600 to 1 figure was cited before they added in the "missing" ossuary of James as possibly coming from the same tomb (which was supported by the patina comparison). The extent of the "forgery" of the James ossuary was possibly ONLY the redaction of "Brother of Yeshuah" to the inscription.

It's funny... last time I posted on this forum, MW woulda been all over this as supporting her (then) view of MM as Jesus' wife, as well as the Mara Mariamne ("Master" Mary) inscription-- which tied in neatly with the Acts of Phillip. :bugeye:

Lots of interesting data points, though.

I have to admit, there is an amazing amount of supporting data. What cautions me is that this movie had the exact same feel as those Internet movies that "prove" the US government was responsible for 9/11. Or that JFK and Lincoln have uncanny similarities. You know what I mean? There are all of these interesting tidbits that all seem to point in one direction, but maybe its because the people involved were only looking in one direction.

I'm going to remain impressed with the work so far (I really enjoyed watching the show and debate), but withhold my opinion until more researchers have weighed in.

"600 to 1 Cameron," what a bozo, c'mon you guys, Cameron says the odds are overwhelming that those are Jesus' bones, so why don't you take out some full page ads saying:

"Christianity is Dead, We have His Bones."

C'mon you guys, "the odds are 600 to 1" that you'd be right, how can you go wrong?

Medicine*Woman:

Surely 600 to 1 odds are beyond a reasonable doubt to doubt?

Again: If everything shows to be as legit.

*************
M*W: No, that's not reasonable doubt to me. James Cameron is hyping his upcoming film. BTW, why would Jesus, MM and Family be buried in Jerusalem. When MM's parts are allegedly found all over France? I used to believe that MM existed, but I came to realize she is a myth as well.

James Cameron has been duped as well.

RickyH Certainly charismatic and crafty. He knew how to work a crowd. I suppose there'd have to be a generous amount of intelligence to pull it all off.

It's funny... last time I posted on this forum, MW woulda been all over this as supporting her (then) view of MM as Jesus' wife, as well as the Mara Mariamne ("Master" Mary) inscription--which tied in neatly with the Acts of Phillip. :bugeye:

*************
M*W: Thank you for remembering me! You are so right! I would have promoted my then belief that MM and Jesus were married and had kids, but not now. I was disappointed when I realized they couldn't have existed. They were such a colorful and intriguing couple. It made sense to me at the time that their story could bring down the RCC, but that's not what's going to kill the beast. None of the characters existed, so there is really no foundation for the church.

I believe this is the secret 'treasure' of Rennes-le-Chateau. There are no bones to be found anywhere.

But even so, would you not agree he would have to be one of the most intelligent humans alive

What would lead you to that conclusion?

*************
M*W: If the data could be proven beyond all doubt to be authentic, then I would reconsider my stance, but I don't believe there is any possible way to prove those are the real bones of Jesus and family. There is just way too much evidence to the contrary. I believe Jesus will always be an astro-theological myth.

Might I suggest you have a look at this link :

http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/gandy_011701.htm

I purchased the book and believe its got an extremely strong case.

Might I suggest you have a look at this link :

http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/gandy_011701.htm

I purchased the book and believe its got an extremely strong case.

*************
M*W: Thanks for the link. I purchased that book several years ago (when it first came out). Interesting read.

how many of you have read "The Hiram Key"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Key
dont be misled by the title. it is an excellent read, regardless of what you believe!

how many of you have read "The Hiram Key"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Key
dont be misled by the title. it is an excellent read, regardless of what you believe!

*************
M*W: I've read it. It was one of the few books I owned that didn't get destroyed by the flooding we had.

the book's info didnt sit very well with me, but i thought it gave an interesting light to some of the new testament scriptures.

Medicine*Woman:

MM in France seems more like a medieval romance than a reality. Whereas Jerusalem jives with where she she lived.

Medicine*Woman:

MM in France seems more like a medieval romance than a reality. Whereas Jerusalem jives with where she she lived.

*************
M*W: Yes, you are right. It does sound more like a midieval romance, but was MM associated with Jerusalem? There are no stories nor myths about MM in Jerusalem, but there are many that she ended up in France.

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I had read long ago that she became known as Eleanor of Aquitaine (sp?) in France. Or is that someone else?

*************
BTW, why would Jesus, MM and Family be buried in Jerusalem. When MM's parts are allegedly found all over France? I used to believe that MM existed, but I came to realize she is a myth as well.
Dunno about MM's French "parts", but the Cameron flick did mention that the Acts of Philip tells of MM's eventual return to Jerusalem.

Of course myth can be born of reality...
I can easily envision Jesus (and his Rabbi wife) as primarily political radicals/sect leaders who came from a "regular" family. All the supernatural stuff could easily have been tacked on after the facts. Messiahs were a dime a dozen back then. People were looking for ways to escape religious as well as political oppression. Jesus and crew easily fit the bill, but the movement needed a little extra "oomph".

Some folks are discounting the tomb on the basis that Jesus was a pauper, and wouldn't have been buried in a "middle-class" tomb. Well, it would seem to me that Jesus' family could've been more towards the middle class... Joseph was a craftsman... Jesus had benefactors that helped him fund his road trips, etc.

I still have huge problems with the historicity of Jesus because of ridiculously scant evidence, but I really do find this latest stuff fascinating.

I find it amusing that the film seems to inspire scoffing from BOTH sides. It seems that the only christians that have problems with the possible existence of Jesus' bones, are the literalists (which are the most dangerous kind).

I *do* think that the filmmakers could've gone a little farther-- more DNA comparisons would definitely have strengthened their case.

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I had read long ago that she became known as Eleanor of Aquitaine (sp?) in France. Or is that someone else?

*************
M*W: Interesting theory... but wrong time. EofA existed in the 1500s. She was married to Henry VIII and was beheaded, I believe. That was about 1500 years after MM.

Dunno about MM's French "parts", but the Cameron flick did mention that the Acts of Philip tells of MM's eventual return to Jerusalem.

Of course myth can be born of reality... I can easily envision Jesus (and his Rabbi wife) as primarily political radicals/sect leaders who came from a "regular" family. All the supernatural stuff could easily have been tacked on after the facts. Messiahs were a dime a dozen back then. People were looking for ways to escape religious as well as political oppression. Jesus and crew easily fit the bill, but the movement needed a little extra "oomph".

Some folks are discounting the tomb on the basis that Jesus was a pauper, and wouldn't have been buried in a "middle-class" tomb. Well, it would seem to me that Jesus' family could've been more towards the middle class... Joseph was a craftsman... Jesus had benefactors that helped him fund his road trips, etc.

I still have huge problems with the historicity of Jesus because of ridiculously scant evidence, but I really do find this latest stuff fascinating.

I find it amusing that the film seems to inspire scoffing from BOTH sides. It seems that the only christians that have problems with the possible existence of Jesus' bones, are the literalists (which are the most dangerous kind).

I *do* think that the filmmakers could've gone a little farther-- more DNA comparisons would definitely have strengthened their case.

*************
M*W: MM's French 'parts' were more or less sanctioned by the RCC, so there is reasonable doubt as to the accuracy of it. If James Cameron is doing the screenwriting, I suppose he can write it any which way he chooses. Astro-theologically speaking, MM (Aquarius) could have 'returned' to Jerusalem (the 'house of bread'), noted by the Sign of Virgo (holding shafts of wheat).

The Gospel of Philip also mentions Jesus 'kissing MM on the mouth.' Astro-theologically speaking, the Sign of Aquarius (the water bearer; also known as John the Baptist) as it approaches the Sun in the February sky, the movements of the signs would appear as if they were brushing up against (the Sun) each other as one would be kissing. Same thing goes for that Judas kiss. The October sky has Scorpio brushing up against the Sun. Jupiter (Peter who was 'jealous') of MM (Aquarius) was told by Jesus (Sun) to 'get thee behind me, Satan.' Satan being the adversary or Jupiter going behind the Sun as in a betrayal of the Sun.

If 'Rabbi' means 'teacher,' it would make sense to me that the zodiac teaches ('logos) the 'study of'. So, you're saying that MM is a Rabbi/teacher? Could be metaphorically.

So what if they find a group of people with similar names? I don't believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed, and neither did his family. There may be some real bones in those ossuaries, but there's no way they can be authentic.

I give it another 2000 years and they dig up Jose Miranda's bones, and there will be people out there who believe he was Jesus/God. People need something to believe in, because they don't believe in themselves.

*************
M*W: MM's French 'parts' were more or less sanctioned by the RCC, so there is reasonable doubt as to the accuracy of it. If James Cameron is doing the screenwriting, I suppose he can write it any which way he chooses.


<astro-blathersnip>
A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual" -- find out how (s)he feels about astrology. ~Lazarus Long
</astro-blathersnip>


*************
M*W: So, you're saying that MM is a Rabbi/teacher? Could be metaphorically.


Based on everything that I've read-- New Testament, Gnostic texts, etc.. --It seems reasonable that she was very important as an Apostle, teacher, missionary. It also could be supported by the fact that the (by then) male dominated "church" would want to suppress this, if true. (Nicea, et. al)


*************
M*W:So what if they find a group of people with similar names? I don't believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed, and neither did his family. There may be some real bones in those ossuaries, but there's no way they can be authentic.


Well... If you found a tomb that contained boxes of bones marked: John, Paul, and George... You won't have necessarily found the Beatles tomb.

If there was also a box marked "Ringo"... still kind of "Meh".

However, spose you add another marked "Linda McC" with DNA that rules out a sibling match to the "Paul" bones, and another marked "Julia", and maybe one more marked "Sean"...

Then it makes you stop and think, No?

Your argument of "there's no way they can be authentic" because "I don't believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed, and neither did his family", is not really a good one.


*************
M*W:People need something to believe in, because they don't believe in themselves.

Agreed.

<astro-blathersnip> A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual"--find out how (s)he feels about astrology. ~Lazarus Long </astro-blathersnip>

Based on everything that I've read--New Testament, Gnostic texts, etc..--It seems reasonable that she was very important as an Apostle, teacher, missionary. It also could be supported by the fact that the (by then) male dominated "church" would want to suppress this, if true. (Nicea, et. al)

Well... If you found a tomb that contained boxes of bones marked: John, Paul, and George... You won't have necessarily found the Beatles tomb.

If there was also a box marked "Ringo"... still kind of "Meh".

However, spose you add another marked "Linda McC" with DNA that rules out a sibling match to the "Paul" bones, and another marked "Julia", and maybe one more marked "Sean"...

Then it makes you stop and think, No?

Your argument of "there's no way they can be authentic" because "I don't believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed, and neither did his family", is not really a good one.

Agreed.

*************
M*W: I just don't think it is humanly possible to find the bones of Jesus, MM and their relatives. I have a personal friend who is a movie producer who is currently working on a film about Jesus and MM. I've had many discussions with her, and she has also found evidence that Jesus and MM existed. She's interviewed people at the top of the Merovingian dynasty... people who know the truth, and her film is coming out soon. I believe what she is doing, and I believe in what she has learned. There is some truth to the reality of Jesus existing... I just haven't found it myself. That surely doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If Jesus existed, then I'm damn sure MM did, too, but I'm waiting on the evidence--no matter how long it takes. The name of the film (for now) is Bloodline. I want to learn everything I can from her. She's interviewed the actual relatives of Jesus. Still, I'm an atheist until proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be wrong.

*************
M*W: I just don't think it is humanly possible to find the bones of Jesus, MM and their relatives. I have a personal friend who is a movie producer who is currently working on a film about Jesus and MM. I've had many discussions with her, and she has also found evidence that Jesus and MM existed. She's interviewed people at the top of the Merovingian dynasty... people who know the truth, and her film is coming out soon. I believe what she is doing, and I believe in what she has learned. There is some truth to the reality of Jesus existing... I just haven't found it myself. That surely doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If Jesus existed, then I'm damn sure MM did, too, but I'm waiting on the evidence--no matter how long it takes. The name of the film (for now) is Bloodline. I want to learn everything I can from her. She's interviewed the actual relatives of Jesus. Still, I'm an atheist until proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be wrong.


*shrug* I'm not as compelled by the Merovingian stuff... but again, myths can be born out of reality. MM going to France as a missionary could've been enough to spark all kinds of claims to the bloodline, even if in fact she ended up going back to Jerusalem to be buried with her husband and his family.

You confuse me. You said in an earlier post that you don't believe that Jesus and his family of the NT ever existed, yet here you say that you believe your friend and that she has found evidence that Jesus and MM existed. :confused:

So these relatives of Jesus... were these descendants of Jesus' daughter Sarah (as the French myths go)? or of his son Judah (bones in the "Jesus tomb")?

And wtf does the existence (or not) of a historical Jesus have to do with being an atheist (or not)? Hint: nothing at all.

*shrug* I'm not as compelled by the Merovingian stuff... but again, myths can be born out of reality. MM going to France as a missionary could've been enough to spark all kinds of claims to the bloodline, even if in fact she ended up going back to Jerusalem to be buried with her husband and his family.

You confuse me. You said in an earlier post that you don't believe that Jesus and his family of the NT ever existed, yet here you say that you believe your friend and that she has found evidence that Jesus and MM existed. :confused:

So these relatives of Jesus... were these descendants of Jesus' daughter Sarah (as the French myths go)? or of his son Judah (bones in the "Jesus tomb")?

And wtf does the existence (or not) of a historical Jesus have to do with being an atheist (or not)? Hint: nothing at all.


*************
M*W: You are absolutely right. I DO NOT believe Jesus and MM existed. I can see no logic in any of them existing.

Yes, I am atheistic, and I cannot concede that belief. The romance of the French beliefs are curious, but in reality, they cannot possibly exist.

There are the myths that MM was Jesus' wife and she bore his kids, but I still don't believe he existed. It's really hard to believe something that doesn't make any sense.

Jeruslem is really a non-entity. The 'house of bread' as it were. There's no other meaning than astrotheological. None of these characters existed. NONE OF THEM. That's the truth as far as I can see it!

1. i think the names Jesus and Maria were quite common at that time.

2. it's not the first believed Jesus tomb to be found.... There is also tomb in Pakistan near the Himalaya said to be the one of Jesus

3. some do even pretend that Jesus survived 33AD and emigrated from Jerusalem to South France, and lived there hiding away from the Romans

4. If Jesus was a spiritual or political rebel leader, maybe a lot of Jewish parents named their sons Jesus, after 33AD and before 70AD, as a expression of quiet protest against the Romans?

http://www.discovery.com/tomb

About the show and has info on the evidence.

I just watched "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" and I would say that pretty much looks like the tomb of Jesus. I started watching that with an extremely skeptical mind, and I have come away feeling thats most likely the tomb of Jesus.

Isnt that how religon works?

http://www.discovery.com/tomb

About the show and has info on the evidence.

I just watched "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" and I would say that pretty much looks like the tomb of Jesus. I started watching that with an extremely skeptical mind, and I have come away feeling thats most likely the tomb of Jesus.

*************
M*W: From what knowledge about the final resting place of Jesus are you basing your authority on? Are you a biblical archeologist?

*************
M*W: From what knowledge about the final resting place of Jesus are you basing your authority on? Are you a biblical archeologist?

No, but I am also not a Russian cosmonaut either. So? I base it on my own authority about what I know from my own personal research into the early days of Christianity. I have read work from Josephus the Jew, Tacitus, Pliny, The Acts of Phillip. I know about Emperor Constantine and the first and second council of Nicaea. I have read the Gospels of Judas, Mary Maglidin, Thomas etc.

After watching that discovery program I would say the odds are pretty good in my opinion. Have you watched the documentary yet?

Pretty easy for you to say since it can't be proven that they are or not His bones.

Pretty easy for you to say since it can't be proven that they are or not His bones.

I don't know if they can be proven beyond a matter of a doubt, but it sure got me with enough reasonable information for me to seriously consider that to be the tomb of the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

Think about it,

- Jesus, son of Joseph on the coffin thing (that other word starting with an O is to long)
- Joseph
- Mary
- Mary Magdalen
- James brother of Jesus

All in one family tomb? And when they checked DNA samples the could identify that Mary and Joseph were the father of the Jesus in that family tomb and that Mary Magdalen did not have the same DNA as the other three (wife of Jesus).

There was a whole lot more info, but I am convinced there is more to this story.

They did a documentary on those ossuaries a couple years back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the boxes were empty [they were found in 1980]from tomb raiders and could only get a trace of dna and I guess that was hard to retrieve.But than, if they took the bones to be sold for the religious artifact market, why wouldn't they take the ossuaries?

They did a documentary on those ossuaries a couple years back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the boxes were empty [they were found in 1980]from tomb raiders and could only get a trace of dna and I guess that was hard to retrieve.But than, if they took the bones to be sold for the religious artifact market, why wouldn't they take the ossuaries?

From what I understand from this documentary:

- One of the ossuaries were taken, The one that says James brother of Jesus. That ended up in a private collection.

- Construction workers found the tomb, not tomb robbers

- The israeli archaeological unit categorized the tomb, and took the ossuaries to a massive warehouse with many others. The one belonging to James went "missing" somewhere until it was found in this private collection.

- The people who took the ossuaries buried the remains in the ossuaries in a marked location.

This whole thing has already been debunked:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/Jesus_tomb.htm

That doesnt look debunked to me.

Note about qqazoo's dirty source:


CARM is a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization whose purpose is to equip Christians and refute error. Learn about biblical Christianity so you can know God better, be more sanctified, and identify false teachings

That doesnt look debunked to me.

Note about qqazoo's dirty source:

Not exactly sure how that's a dirty source? Does the fact that it's a Christian site offend you somehow?

Does the fact that it's a Christian site offend you somehow?

Well, they're kinda unlikely to be impartial... comprende?

Not exactly sure how that's a dirty source? Does the fact that it's a Christian site offend you somehow?

Yes. Quote from a real science source debunking it, not some fringe element. I honestly dont trust your source. At all.

Yes. Quote from a real science source debunking it, not some fringe element. I honestly dont trust your source. At all.

With sciforums being a site that tends to condemn Christianity, I can understand your religious barriers, and you're right, it is a site from a Christian point of view.

However, it's not the only source... it does give due credit from other sources, and I think, based on that, their argument is quite valid.

With sciforums being a site that tends to condemn Christianity, I can understand your religious barriers, and you're right, it is a site from a Christian point of view.

However, it's not the only source... it does give due credit from other sources, and I think, based on that, their argument is quite valid.

I am sure it does... when the wind is blowing in a slight westly direction and the sun is at a 22% angle. Im sure it all makes perfect sense to you.

I am sure it does... when the wind is blowing in a slight westly direction and the sun is at a 22&#37; angle. Im sure it all makes perfect sense to you.


Judging by your sarcasm, I'm not sure now that it's a Christian site that's bothering you, or it's that you don't like how the conclusion leads.

Either way:

"The Christian is quite free to believe that there is a considerable amount of settled order and inevitable development in the universe. But the materialist is not allowed to admit into his spotless machine the slightest speck of spiritualism or miracle." -G.K. Chesterton

Judging by your sarcasm, I'm not sure now that it's a Christian site that's bothering you, or it's that you don't like how the conclusion leads.

Either way:

"The Christian is quite free to believe that there is a considerable amount of settled order and inevitable development in the universe. But the materialist is not allowed to admit into his spotless machine the slightest speck of spiritualism or miracle." -G.K. Chesterton

Carl Sagan

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe.

Carl Sagan

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe.

he could be talking about anything\anyone, including you. it is not for us to prove the doco wrong but for them to prove it right. it really looks like complete BS...sorry charlie.