Turkey threatens 'serious consequences' after US vote on Armenian genocide

Turkey has threatened to downgrade its strategic relationship with the US amid nationalist anger over a vote in the US Congress that defined the mass killings of Armenians during the first world war as genocide.

Barack Obama's administration, which regards Turkey as an important ally, was today desperately seeking to defuse the row. It expressed its frustration with the House of Representatives' foreign affairs committee, which voted 23-22 yesterday in favour of a resolution labelling the 1915 massacre of up to 1.5 million Armenians a "genocide".

A furious Turkey may now deny the US access to the Incirlik air base, a staging post for Iraq, as it did at the time of the 2003 invasion, or withdraw its sizeable troop contribution to the coalition forces in Afghanistan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/05/turkey-us-vote-armenian-genocide

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Hope we are not going to war on truth?

Turkey threatens 'serious consequences' after US vote on Armenian genocide

Turkey has threatened to downgrade its strategic relationship with the US amid nationalist anger over a vote in the US Congress that defined the mass killings of Armenians during the first world war as genocide.

Barack Obama's administration, which regards Turkey as an important ally, was today desperately seeking to defuse the row. It expressed its frustration with the House of Representatives' foreign affairs committee, which voted 23-22 yesterday in favour of a resolution labelling the 1915 massacre of up to 1.5 million Armenians a "genocide".

A furious Turkey may now deny the US access to the Incirlik air base, a staging post for Iraq, as it did at the time of the 2003 invasion, or withdraw its sizeable troop contribution to the coalition forces in Afghanistan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/05/turkey-us-vote-armenian-genocide

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Hope we are not going to war on truth?

This is an issue that's nearly a century old. Let it be dead and move on.

The American-Turkish strategic partnership is a hell of a lot more important than obsessing about every point in history. Let scholars decide "the truth". Politicians unfortunately have to be concerned with issues dealing with today.

~String

I'm not really worried about "the furious Turkey." I wonder how many of them know that in our language, their country goes by the same name as one of the stupidest birds ever.

Barack Obama's administration, which regards Turkey as an important ally, was today desperately seeking to defuse the row. It expressed its frustration with the House of Representatives' foreign affairs committee, which voted 23-22 yesterday in favour of a resolution labelling the 1915 massacre of up to 1.5 million Armenians a "genocide".

And the Chinese get all pissy whenever a US president meets with the Dalai Lama. Let them bitch---if they can't come to terms with their history, that's their own problem, right?

good for americans, that they prefer hamburger over döner.

This is an issue that's nearly a century old. Let it be dead and move on.

The American-Turkish strategic partnership is a hell of a lot more important than obsessing about every point in history. Let scholars decide "the truth". Politicians unfortunately have to be concerned with issues dealing with today.

~StringWould you feel that way if the Germans decided to start denying the Holocaust?

and the issue is not a century old, it is current since they have never admitted it. In fact they occasionally put their own citizens on trial for daring to refer to the genocide.

Futher the pattern is related to the way the Kurds are treated.

good for americans, that they prefer hamburger over döner.

You can't generally get doner kebabs in the US, so that preference may well be uninformed. Most Americans have never heard of it until they visit Europe (I hadn't).

Fortunately, an excellent doner kebab shop just opened near my house. As it happens, it's right next to an In'n'Out burger, so I am frequently confronted by just this choice... lately I've been tending towards the kebab, since it's typically a shorter line and they serve beer and really good baklava.

As to the actual topic: this is all about domestic politics, on both sides. The Turks have been looking for an opportunity to strike a more independent, assertive posture, and this looks to be a good one (no serious interests are directly at stake, it's a hot-button issue with the Turkish public, etc.).

As to the actual topic: this is all about domestic politics, on both sides. The Turks have been looking for an opportunity to strike a more independent, assertive posture, and this looks to be a good one (no serious interests are directly at stake, it's a hot-button issue with the Turkish public, etc.).

Turks have been more independent since the end of the Cold War, so that's not really the issue. And there are "serious" issues at stake. Being lumped in with the Germans in history is not exactly something any nation wants. Furthermore, the Turks realize that should the amendment pass, the Armenians will seek land and reparations.

What's disgusting about this is that some jackoff Congressman in Congress who is doing the bidding of rich Armenian donors like the Kardashians just derailed the actual thawing of hostility between Turkey and Armenia. The two countries exchanged diplomats and were on the verge of opening their borders, until this meaningless amendment derailed that process. This Congressman either doesn't know that or doesn't care. Neither of which is excusable for a man in his position.



Would you feel that way if the Germans decided to start denying the Holocaust?

The Holocaust is nothing like what happened in 1915.


and the issue is not a century old, it is current since they have never admitted it. In fact they occasionally put their own citizens on trial for daring to refer to the genocide.

Futher the pattern is related to the way the Kurds are treated.

The Turks did not try to deport the Kurds because they were fellow Muslims. The Kurds, on the other hand, have been rebelling fairly steadily and fairly violently since 1925. The most latest iteration, the PKK, is one of the worst terrorist groups around. So the issue is slightly more complicated that you are allowing here.

The Holocaust is nothing like what happened in 1915.1) I asked a question. 2) I was trying to understand how he would apply the 'things in the past' rule he was proposing. 3) there are similarities, massive killings of one group by another, both considered genocidal by most historians and experts.


The Turks did not try to deport the Kurds because they were fellow Muslims. The Kurds, on the other hand, have been rebelling fairly steadily and fairly violently since 1925. The most latest iteration, the PKK, is one of the worst terrorist groups around. So the issue is slightly more complicated that you are allowing here.
I said it was related. You have a dominant group in the country that has a strong history of not tolerating other groups. This includes the way armenians were related to and the way Kurds are related to. Hell, the latter's language was illegal until fairly recently. There is something racist built into the system of Turkey. They cannot deal with their own actions. The behavior of the PKK does not justify racist policies which the Turks have engaged in forever. Wanna create radical groups, treat some minority group in your country as shit and make their culture illegal, treat them differently from other citizens, abuse them, jail them and keep them from doing as well as other groups. Turkey on official levels cannot deal with at the very least certain groups on equal terms. And this is vastly more relevent to current Turkey than the Holocaust is to current Germany. Germany on the other hand does nothing to hide from its history on its more recent genocidal actions. Turkey is not ready to deal with something that happened longer ago. Why? Because it is relevent. Any nation unable to face itself in this way is more likely to act in similar ways.

1) I asked a question.

Your question specifically linked the holocaust to events in 1915 that are completely different and occurred in a completely different context. This sort of clumsy lumping together is precisely why the Turks get so damn defensive about any attempt to talk about 1915 -- IE all attempts begin from a vantage, repeated by you, that Turks = Nazis.


2) I was trying to understand how he would apply the 'things in the past' rule he was proposing.

I think his point is that people fuck people over. The Indians got fucked over, but so did Blacks, Irishmen, Italians and so on and so forth. You can't undo what is done or make it less horrible and inhumane with post-de-facto apologies on sheets of paper written by people who were not the perpetrators for people who were not the victims.


3) there are similarities, massive killings of one group by another, both considered genocidal by most historians and experts.

All massive killings are not genocide. But in terms of 1915, I am willing to look at that term, provided a definition is proposed, so long as the term is not immediately linked to the holocaust, as you have already done. 1915 was not the holocaust or anything like. And I think Jews would agree with me.


Hell, the latter's language was illegal until fairly recently. There is something racist built into the system of Turkey. They cannot deal with their own actions. The behavior of the PKK does not justify racist policies which the Turks have engaged in forever.

I never said it did. However, I have no problem with Turkey legislating a national language, as many European countries do, but I too think it's ridiculous that people can't speak Kurdish. The issue of culture is much more complicated, though. Turkey was attempting to create a new national state and a new national identity. To do so, rightly or wrongly, it put secular nationalism at the forefront of that movement. The Kurds, from day one, resisted that. The rub is that Turkey's success in consolidation and its avoidance of the mire of the ME are all down to the advancement of secular nationalism and the Turkish identity.


Wanna create radical groups, treat some minority group in your country as shit and make their culture illegal, treat them differently from other citizens, abuse them, jail them and keep them from doing as well as other groups.

Turkey did not create radical Kurdish nationalism. The Kurds did. And they had help from outside powers like Bulgaria, Russia and Greece. As I already mentioned, the Sheik Said rebellion in 1925 began the moment Ataturk abolished the caliphate. It had nothing to do with rights and culture. It was about sheiks losing power to the state.


And this is vastly more relevent to current Turkey than the Holocaust is to current Germany.

The current Germany does not have an armed insurgency -- ignored by the West and aided from abroad -- operating within its borders that has killed more than 35,000 people. You might want to enter that into your calculations, because Turkey and its leaders certainly have to.


Turkey is not ready to deal with something that happened longer ago. Why? Because it is relevent. Any nation unable to face itself in this way is more likely to act in similar ways.

I think the Turks are too closeminded on this issue, too. But much of the reason they are is that people like you lump them in with Nazis and expect them to accept this. They won't, and they shouldn't. People like you also conveniently ignore Armenian actions (from WW1 to ASALA to ethnic cleansing in Nagorno Karabh) and the REAL reasons for the push for the genocide declaration (politics and money). This further prevents an honest debate, as the Armenians are set up as the Victims (read good guys), the Turks the Perpetrators (read bad guys). The reality is much more complicated than that.

Meanwhile, real and substantive policy, such as the thawing of animosity between the two countries, are torpedoed by what is essentially a political stunt by a biased congressman who is catering to his rich constituents' whims.

The Holocaust is nothing like what happened in 1915.

well except for the fact the holocaust was to get rid of some people so germans could move onto their lands and the armenian genocide was to remove armenians so turks could move there.

i don't get why the Turks are offended, i mean the finger pointed at them is still freshly dripping with blood.. they should get over their laziness and try to make a list of the genocides by the US, even though that may take for ever..


:wtf:
i mean, hold a sec...wasn't the US friggin founded on a genocide of the red indians..fudging total annhialation, then building houses on their graves and calling them "home"??

True. Which is what the Chinese did. They pointed to Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan when the Americans pointed to Tibet.
But Turkey doesn't have the US by the balls, as China does.

The Turks have been poking their fingers in western eyes (especially Israel of late), so they're just getting back as they give. I'm also curious as to when they plan to ultimately reverse the theft of Constantinople, the Bosphorus seaway, and the surrounding lands in continental Christian Europe. Perhaps their Albanian conquistador allies in Serbia should also be brought to task.

In my personal opinion, Turkey, the US and Israel all deserve criticism to one degree or another, so rather than complain about each others' hypocrisy, they should just lay it all out on the table and be done with it. Turkey doesn't want US airbases? No problem, they won't get the cash for them either, there, done.

I think Turkey has realised that it has more to gain from its neighbors than the Europeans. The current [and rising] Islamophobia in Europe could work to Turkeys advantage. They have the advantage of being a neutral arbiter in the region [unlike Iran] and also the support of the Arab street on both sides of the Sunni Shia paradigm. The steps they took with Armenia suggest that they are good diplomats and if they can reach a similar agreement with the Kurds, they are all set to go.

Its become popular to be anti-American in the Middle East and the only competition the Turks have is Iran.

I think Turkey has realised that it has more to gain from its neighbors than the Europeans. The current [and rising] Islamophobia in Europe could work to Turkeys advantage. They have the advantage of being a neutral arbiter in the region [unlike Iran] and also the support of the Arab street on both sides of the Sunni Shia paradigm. The steps they took with Armenia suggest that they are good diplomats and if they can reach a similar agreement with the Kurds, they are all set to go.

Its become popular to be anti-American in the Middle East and the only competition the Turks have is Iran.

I have no problem with anti-Americanism in the Middle East. My only question is why America trades with and enriches them. The west should give an ultimatum to Muslim countries that they're free to hate Americans and Europeans if they want, but citizens of countries with such sentiments should be banned from all travel, trade, education, immigration, investment, etc. etc. in/from the lands of the people they hate, and the rules should be tightened so they can't bypass these restrictions by going through neutral countries. They can go discover their own Spinning Jennies and choo choo trains, or learn how to make these things from their own folks educated in their own lands using money they made from selling oil to their own people.

I have no problem with anti-Americanism in the Middle East. My only question is why America trades with and enriches them. The west should give an ultimatum to Muslim countries that they're free to hate Americans and Europeans if they want, but citizens of countries with such sentiments should be banned from all travel, trade, education, immigration, investment, etc. etc. in/from the lands of the people they hate, and the rules should be tightened so they can't bypass these restrictions by going through neutral countries. They can go discover their own Spinning Jennies and choo choo trains, or learn how to make these things from their own folks educated in their own lands using money they made from selling oil to their own people.

um in case you've forgotten we're dependent on them for oil

I have no problem with anti-Americanism in the Middle East. My only question is why America trades with and enriches them. The west should give an ultimatum to Muslim countries that they're free to hate Americans and Europeans if they want, but citizens of countries with such sentiments should be banned from all travel, trade, education, immigration, investment, etc. etc. in/from the lands of the people they hate, and the rules should be tightened so they can't bypass these restrictions by going through neutral countries. They can go discover their own Spinning Jennies and choo choo trains, or learn how to make these things from their own folks educated in their own lands using money they made from selling oil to their own people.

That is probably how it will pan out in the next few decades. Turkey and Iran will collaborate [as they already are (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8812150993)] for regional stability. Once the Americans are out of Iraq, which cannot be soon enough for everyone in the region, then Iraq-Iran-Turkey will combine to form the next power group in the region. There will be tremendous pressure on Arab dictators to make a choice.

We live in interesting times indeed.

um in case you've forgotten we're dependent on them for oil

And as they seem to have forgotten, they depend on us for pretty much everything they have. We should have continued with the conservation measures, alternative energy sources and alternative oil supplies, as the West did in the 70's. The Arab oil embargo ended when they realized we were about to move on and leave them to rot in the desert, but it would have been better for us in the long term if they had continued to withhold this deceptive drug.


That is probably how it will pan out in the next few decades. Turkey and Iran will collaborate [as they already are (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8812150993)] for regional stability. Once the Americans are out of Iraq, which cannot be soon enough for everyone in the region, then Iraq-Iran-Turkey will combine to form the next power group in the region. There will be tremendous pressure on Arab dictators to make a choice.

We live in interesting times indeed.

America and Europe should end all support of corrupt Middle East regimes rather than propping them up and enraging their peoples. I'd rather we spent our efforts walling in a legitimately elected extremist government rather than opening our doors to the terrorist and terror sympathizers in their midst, pretending they're our "buddies".

As far as Iran/Turkey goes, it doesn't sound like the Arabs want to be dominated by Iran or Turkey any more than they want to be dominated by the US and Europe. As long as the message is "get rid of foreign imperialists in your midst...", I'm sure there will be a large receptive audience, but as soon as the message becomes "... and replace those imperialists with a bunch of crazy medieval Iranian mullahs", then there will be problems.

I don't see what all the hoo ha is really about anyway; in terms of equipment quality, training, logistics and scale, the Iranian army is as much of a joke now as it was 20 years ago. It's a good army for hiding in peoples' homes and shooting occupying troops in the back as they pass by while patrolling the neighbourhood, like in Iraq (where it seems America still won anyhow). It's also a good army for executing people deemed traitors and bombing more of their own citizens than even America did (again like in Iraq)... but it's not so useful in an all-out "shoot everything that moves" type of fight or a battle on someone else's lands. If Iran were to invade one of its neighbours in force, I could see them taking a good swift arse kicking to put them in their place, just like when the invincible Saddam invaded Kuwait.

And as they seem to have forgotten, they depend on us for pretty much everything they have. We should have continued with the conservation measures, alternative energy sources and alternative oil supplies, as the West did in the 70's. The Arab oil embargo ended when they realized we were about to move on and leave them to rot in the desert, but it would have been better for us in the long term if they had continued to withhold this deceptive drug. not really india and china could easily replace us to them.

not really india and china could easily replace us to them.

Where do they get the money to buy that oil from? We giveth, and we can taketh away (yes it means we'll have to start making our own sneakers again, assuming this is what it comes down to).

well except for the fact the holocaust was to get rid of some people so germans could move onto their lands and the armenian genocide was to remove armenians so turks could move there.

I suggest you learn some history. If you do so, you will see that the Turks did not have death factories setup to incinerate an entire race of people -- and this is the event their removal of the Armenians is being compared to. Rather, the Turks forcibly removed a people being used by the Russians as a fifth column. So despite whatever figure you accept, there was no organized plan to eradicate a people and no industrial mechanism created for that end.


The Turks have been poking their fingers in western eyes (especially Israel of late), so they're just getting back as they give. I'm also curious as to when they plan to ultimately reverse the theft of Constantinople, the Bosphorus seaway, and the surrounding lands in continental Christian Europe. Perhaps their Albanian conquistador allies in Serbia should also be brought to task.

The "theft" of Constantinople? What are you on about?

I suggest you learn some history. If you do so, you will see that the Turks did not have death factories setup to incinerate an entire race of people -- and this is the event their removal of the Armenians is being compared to. Rather, the Turks forcibly removed a people being used by the Russians as a fifth column. So despite whatever figure you accept, there was no organized plan to eradicate a people and no industrial mechanism created for that end. Ah yes are great historian and resident turk. Despite your attempts to white wash turkey's crimes they exist. the turks forcibly removed and killed people to get their land after they gained. the Nazis forcibly removed and killed people to their land. what the difference.




The "theft" of Constantinople? What are you on about?

perhaps you should learn some history? or I guess the turks founded byzantium?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople

Where do they get the money to buy that oil from? We giveth, and we can taketh away (yes it means we'll have to start making our own sneakers again, assuming this is what it comes down to).

As much as you'd like to think we pull up shop we can't are corporations would go ape shit if they didn't have that labour. they get their money from other sources than us. Well except for china they have bought up are debt right and left.

Ah yes are great historian and resident turk.

I am neither Turkish or a historian, but I can properly recognize the difference between "are" and "our." You, apparently, cannot.


Despite your attempts to white wash turkey's crimes they exist. the turks forcibly removed and killed people to get their land after they gained. the Nazis forcibly removed and killed people to their land. what the difference.

I don't believe I whitewashed anything. In fact, I think I wrote that the "Turks forcibly removed" the Armenians, so I'm acknowledging the removal and death of about 1.5 million Armenians.

Meanwhile, you're claiming the Nazis removed the Jews for their land. That's not entirely accurate (the Nazis already had the land where they found the Jews). There is a Final Solution that clearly spells out the Nazi plan to exterminate an entire race of people. The Nazis, infamously, built an entire infrastructure of death camps and gas chambers to put this plan into action. This never happened with the Turks and the Armenians.

The Turks simply wanted them out of Turkey, largely because they were being used by the Russians as a Fifth column in WW1, and they used brutal and inhuman methods to achieve this. This is the context I am speaking of, and it is nothing like the Nazis and the holocaust, nor is the Armenian behavior, then and now, anything like the Jews. So stupid, simplistic equivocations should be avoided. As I have already said, people like you have no idea what ASALA is or where Nagorno Karabh is and what is happening there. I suggest you add to -- the what is it you once claimed, 200 books -- you have read, then get back to me...


perhaps you should learn some history? or I guess the turks founded byzantium?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople

No, and neither did the Byzantines, smart guy.

The Byzantine empire was founded by Romans. Romans weren't exactly from Western Turkey. They conquered the land from the Greeks who conquered it from Hittites and so and so forth. So at what point do you want to stop playing this silly rhetorical game? Conquest happened throughout history. It's hardly theft, in any modern understanding of the term, and resetting people back to their "original" locations -- even if you could ever establish that -- is entirely impossible.

So someone advocating the Turks return Constantinople to its rightful owners (Greek and Christian, based on the tone of his post) is either really fucking ignorant -- or Greek.

Would you feel that way if the Germans decided to start denying the Holocaust?

Yes. I don't think it's our place to tell another nation how to view history. If we knit-pick over every issue of history we end up. . . well, we end up doing worse than we are doing now, and I don't know if you've been paying attention, but we aren't doing so well right now.

Right now--here and now--the USA needs to worry about bigger things than how the Turks define their history.

I love how people bitch when the USA interferes win another nation's politics, but become sudden apologists for such behavior when there's a fashionable issue out there (i.e. Darfur, Turkey, Rwanda, Tibet).

~String

superstring:

I see that you deleted my post on refueling and support for aerial operations in US wars by Turkey. That is actually a major component of Turkish-US alliance. The fact that Turkey has been purchasing its own military equipment [from Israel, which is basically American equipment sold cheaper], is evidence that Turkey is easing away from US protectionism. One of the major points over which the military in Turkey disagrees with the government is US refueling of aircraft which are supposed to be non-lethal, but obviously are part of the war effort. Its one of the arenas to be affected immediately if there is a US-Turkey cooling. [the military supports the US, but Erdogan has constituents to look upto]

The fact that you think it is irrelevant or pointless or whatever, simply shows how little informed Americans are about these matters

From The Economist:


If the deal collapses, the way would be left open for Congress to pass a resolution recognising the 1915 killings as genocide, something it has long threatened. This in turn could trigger anti-American feelings in Turkey strong enough to leave Ankara feeling that it has no choice but to retaliate. One option would be to kick the Americans out from the strategically located Incirlik airbase.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15549523

I of course, would be very happy if they kicked out the Americans from Incirlik. With the US army already evicted from Manas, that makes one less place they can refuel and get supplies in a non-war zone in the region

Yes. I don't think it's our place to tell another nation how to view history. If we knit-pick over every issue of history we end up. . . well, we end up doing worse than we are doing now, and I don't know if you've been paying attention, but we aren't doing so well right now.All they did was officially acknowledge that they viewed it as genocide. I don't think there were any proposed sanctions or any attempts to force the Turkish to think differently. I don't think it is nitpicking - 1.5 million killed due to their race - either and further I think it is still relevent today. Whoever cannot deal with what, bascially, their ancestors did, is going to have a hellava time dealing with what they do now. Further for the US gov. to acknowledge this happened is not just about Turkish thinking, it is an act of respect for those who have had to live with the crazymaking denial of the Turkish government.

Sure, the US is doing sucky things. But to not point out what other people are doing so that the US doesn't get called on its shit is hardly ethical.


Right now--here and now--the USA needs to worry about bigger things than how the Turks define their history. And that would probably fit most decisions made by the various committees in Congress.


I love how people bitch when the USA interferes win another nation's politics, but become sudden apologists for such behavior when there's a fashionable issue out there (i.e. Darfur, Turkey, Rwanda, Tibet). Interfering in the politics of other countries is what we did for years in South America, undermining democracy, training counterinsurge groups in how to destroy people's movements with torture and massacres. Acknowledging that something happened that pretty much every non-turkish historian says happened is a bare blip on the scale of interefering in politics. I would say it stretches the meaning of the concept into meaninglessness.

What the hell kind of alliance is it, if they can't handle a disagreement on something like this.

superstring:

I see that you deleted my post on refueling and support for aerial operations in US wars by Turkey. That is actually a major component of Turkish-US alliance. The fact that Turkey has been purchasing its own military equipment [from Israel, which is basically American equipment sold cheaper], is evidence that Turkey is easing away from US protectionism. One of the major points over which the military in Turkey disagrees with the government is US refueling of aircraft which are supposed to be non-lethal, but obviously are part of the war effort. Its one of the arenas to be affected immediately if there is a US-Turkey cooling. [the military supports the US, but Erdogan has constituents to look upto]

The fact that you think it is irrelevant or pointless or whatever, simply shows how little informed Americans are about these matters

From The Economist:



I of course, would be very happy if they kicked out the Americans from Incirlik. With the US army already evicted from Manas, that makes one less place they can refuel and get supplies in a non-war zone in the region

I deleted it because, once again, it was a trite, pointless jab that added nothing to the debate. If you wanted to add some substance to the discussion, you would have taken the time to actually create a post with value, like (for example) the one you just wrote.

I stand by the judgment. As "ABC" used to say during Saturday morning cartoons, "The more you know!" And now you do.

~String

Ask an Armenian or a Kurd how they feel about the Turks' monstrous crimes...
A Kurdish friend of mine hates Turks with a passion. He hates them almost to the level of physical violence. And the Armenians... they haven't seen one cent of compensation, and worse, they haven't seen a quark of regret, and even worse, their tragedy is denied to this day by the perpetrators. And yes, even worse yet, their good friends, the western countries, pretend like it never even happened knowing full well that it did because of Turkish blackmail. The memory of their national tragedy is being disrespected and their collective national psyche is continued to be traumatized.

The Turks are threatening the west with joining the Axis of Iran and Syria - the two cast out terror sponsoring states - if the west recognizes this genocide officially. Turkey has pretty good bargaining chips so this travesty will continue.


This is an issue that's nearly a century old. Let it be dead and move on.

The American-Turkish strategic partnership is a hell of a lot more important than obsessing about every point in history. Let scholars decide "the truth". Politicians unfortunately have to be concerned with issues dealing with today.

~String

Yes the partnership is too important to ruin, but it isn't just a scholarly historical debate about some trivial detail. It is very much important. The attention span in the States is very short. It comes and goes with the daily news cycle. But other countries, real nations have really long memories about these things.

I'm not really worried about "the furious Turkey." I wonder how many of them know that in our language, their country goes by the same name as one of the stupidest birds ever.
That's certainly not what Ben Franklin thought when he nominated it over the Eagle as a symbol of the USA :)

Acknowledging that something happened that pretty much every non-turkish historian says happened is a bare blip on the scale of interefering in politics.

And that's where you are wrong. That is, you have yet to deal with the breakdown this symbolic (read meaningless) bill has wrought between the two countries. Turkey and Armenia were making progress toward normal relations until this bill came along and torpedoed it. And for what? So some rich Armenians in California can smear the Turks?


Ask an Armenian or a Kurd how they feel about the Turks' monstrous crimes...

And that proves what?

I mean, why not ask the Turks how they feel about dead Turkish diplomats killed by Armenians? Or you could ask them how they feel about the Kurds who abet the PKK's reign of terror?


And the Armenians... they haven't seen one cent of compensation, and worse, they haven't seen a quark of regret, and even worse, their tragedy is denied to this day by the perpetrators.

Exactly how do you compensate people who did not suffer one bit of the "genocide" here? And the mere fact you believe compensation is in order is precisely what the Turks fear. Should they be stigmatized, for dubious political reasons, then the move to extort money from them, sue them in the IC and hamper their EU bid are all on the table.


And yes, even worse yet, their good friends, the western countries, pretend like it never even happened knowing full well that it did because of Turkish blackmail.

Not true. Many western countries acknowledge it. There is even a monument in France.


The memory of their national tragedy is being disrespected and their collective national psyche is continued to be traumatized.

You can speak for Armenian collective national psyche?


The Turks are threatening the west with joining the Axis of Iran and Syria - the two cast out terror sponsoring states - if the west recognizes this genocide officially. Turkey has pretty good bargaining chips so this travesty will continue.

That's complete bullshit. The Turks are not joining with Iran or Syria, they are trading with them. And Turkey getting closer to Syria actually mirrors US policy. It also allows Turkey to negotiate with Israel on behalf of Syria. Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about...

I don't believe I whitewashed anything. In fact, I think I wrote that the "Turks forcibly removed" the Armenians, so I'm acknowledging the removal and death of about 1.5 million Armenians. and yet you get all huffy when its refered to as genocide.


Meanwhile, you're claiming the Nazis removed the Jews for their land. That's not entirely accurate (the Nazis already had the land where they found the Jews). There is a Final Solution that clearly spells out the Nazi plan to exterminate an entire race of people. The Nazis, infamously, built an entire infrastructure of death camps and gas chambers to put this plan into action. This never happened with the Turks and the Armenians. The holocaust was more than the jews. the nazis threw the slavs into the meet grinder for their land.


The Turks simply wanted them out of Turkey, largely because they were being used by the Russians as a Fifth column in WW1, and they used brutal and inhuman methods to achieve this. This is the context I am speaking of, and it is nothing like the Nazis and the holocaust, nor is the Armenian behavior, then and now, anything like the Jews. So stupid, simplistic equivocations should be avoided. As I have already said, people like you have no idea what ASALA is or where Nagorno Karabh is and what is happening there. I suggest you add to -- the what is it you once claimed, 200 books -- you have read, then get back to me...[QUOTE] I'm not claiming to be knowledgeable I'm claiming that the Nazis attempts to get land through genocide and the turks attempts to do the same are morally equivilent. the whole reason their were armenians in turkey was do to turkish expansion. the removal of armenians as a fifth colulum was what really sparked armenian to go after turkey and work with the russians.



[QUOTE]No, and neither did the Byzantines, smart guy. I know that


The Byzantine empire was founded by Romans. Romans weren't exactly from Western Turkey. They conquered the land from the Greeks who conquered it from Hittites and so and so forth. So at what point do you want to stop playing this silly rhetorical game? Conquest happened throughout history. It's hardly theft, in any modern understanding of the term, and resetting people back to their "original" locations -- even if you could ever establish that -- is entirely impossible. The reference wasn't meant as a call to do so but to show the blatant hypocrisy in your position.

And that's where you are wrong. That is, you have yet to deal with the breakdown this symbolic (read meaningless) bill has wrought between the two countries. Turkey and Armenia were making progress toward normal relations until this bill came along and torpedoed it. And for what? So some rich Armenians in California can smear the Turks? the truth isn't a smear.




And that proves what?

I mean, why not ask the Turks how they feel about dead Turkish diplomats killed by Armenians? Or you could ask them how they feel about the Kurds who abet the PKK's reign of terror? its hard to feel sorry for those whose deaths are a reaction to their crimes.




Exactly how do you compensate people who did not suffer one bit of the "genocide" here? And the mere fact you believe compensation is in order is precisely what the Turks fear. Should they be stigmatized, for dubious political reasons, then the move to extort money from them, sue them in the IC and hamper their EU bid are all on the table. what the fuck do you mean "genocide" the guy who coined the word was thinking about what happened to the armenians when he did so




You can speak for Armenian collective national psyche?the mindset of the abused isn't hard to get

True. Which is what the Chinese did. They pointed to Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan when the Americans pointed to Tibet.
But Turkey doesn't have the US by the balls, as China does.

If China is dumb enough to think that what America has done in Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan is as bad as what they've done to Tibet, well, they may not be the threat that I had assumed they were. :shrug:

and yet you get all huffy when its refered to as genocide.

I get "huffy" when people, like you, make inane comparisons you seem all to eager to join. And you did exactly the same thing when you showed your ass about the Kurds a few months back. So clearly something larger is at work.


The holocaust was more than the jews. the nazis threw the slavs into the meet grinder for their land.

What a tired argument. The holocaust was largely about the Jews and Hitler's political and racist designs. Pretending otherwise is nothing more than an attempt to deflect what my actual point was. Jews, Slaves, Gypsies, whatever -- my point stands, the Turks did not create an industrial industry to wipe out people. And you've yet to prove killing Jews was about "land" the Nazis already conquered and not about Hitler's racism, which can be documented all the way back to Mein Kampf.


I know that

Then shut up about it.


The reference wasn't meant as a call to do so but to show the blatant hypocrisy in your position.

The only hypocrisy came from the person who claimed the city was stolen by the Turks, a position you attempted to defend. So you joined yourself to his stupidity, and I exposed it by showing the Byzantines had no more or less claim on that land than the Turks. My larger point was that in an age of conquest people "owned" what they could keep and little else mattered. So claiming something was stolen when one political entity failed to resist the advance of another is a dubious modern reading of everything that happened.


the truth isn't a smear.

You haven't presented the truth or anything like it. You've presented one side's interpretation, along with your equivocations, which is a smear and has been designed as such. The Armenians are forwarding their position for dubious political reasons, which you have also attached yourself to under some misunderstanding of justice.


its hard to feel sorry for those whose deaths are a reaction to their crimes.

That's about the most ignorant fucking statement I've seen you post. A diplomat in Los Angles gunned down in the 70s had zilch to do with what happened to Armenians in 1915. Neither did the hundreds of school teachers and school children -- yes children -- who were murdered by the PKK for no other reason than they were at a school. Either you have no idea how ASALA or PKK operate or you're a truly sick person...


what the fuck do you mean "genocide" the guy who coined the word was thinking about what happened to the armenians when he did so

I mean that the people who were removed and survived are dead. Nothing can be done for them. So why are we compensating people who clearly are not victims?

If China is dumb enough to think that what America has done in Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan is as bad as what they've done to Tibet It isn't?

Are you sure about that? Are you sure most other people would agree - when China points, that is?

It isn't?

Are you sure about that? Are you sure most other people would agree - when China points, that is?

I don't think we should have invaded Iraq, but I don't see how it's as bad as China's invasion and subsequent cultural cleansing of Tibet.

With regard to Gitmo; abuse in prisons isn't unheard of, and it's not exactly exclusive to America. I'd rather be a suspected terrorist in Gitmo than any sort of prisoner in China.

And that's where you are wrong. That is, you have yet to deal with the breakdown this symbolic (read meaningless) bill has wrought between the two countries. Turkey and Armenia were making progress toward normal relations until this bill came along and torpedoed it. And for what? So some rich Armenians in California can smear the Turks?
You aren't capable of thinking outside of the US borders, are you... You know, there's a state and a people somewhere in the world that might give a shit about this. Jeez... talk about cluelessness and self absorption!


And that proves what?
That this issue is far from dead. That it's very important to people. Not to you maybe, who is not a Kurd or an Armenian and couldn't give a shit about either.


I mean, why not ask the Turks how they feel about dead Turkish diplomats killed by Armenians? Or you could ask them how they feel about the Kurds who abet the PKK's reign of terror?
Both are drops in the bucket compared to what the Ottomans/Turks have done.


Exactly how do you compensate people who did not suffer one bit of the "genocide" here?
The mere recognition is in itself compensation. And... I see you're on the denial train. Nice! Are you a Turk by any chance?


And the mere fact you believe compensation is in order is precisely what the Turks fear. Should they be stigmatized, for dubious political reasons, then the move to extort money from them, sue them in the IC and hamper their EU bid are all on the table.
The Turks don't want to pay up, but that's not what they're afraid of. And their chance to join the EU would be enhanced if they admit their crimes. What they really are afraid of is to admit to themselves and to the world that their predecessors did in fact commit genocide. It's a terrible realization that brings with it more than shame. Just ask the Germans. They are paying monetary compensation for the Nazis' crimes to this day to all the European countries that suffered, and the German economy is doing just fine. It's not about the money. You really do sound like a stereotypical American. All you think about is money! When the Germans offered Israel very high amounts of money as compensation just a few years after the end of WW2, Israel's government very reluctantly agreed to accept it, only because the money was desperately needed by the new besieged state. After the decision was made in parliament, the citizens were so furious they almost overran the parliament in violence. They thought that accepting this cash would amount to accept Germans' apology and to forgive them. Don't think the Armenians would necessarily accept a dime from Turkey. Some might, but there would be a huge national debate about it, no doubt. After the 100-year-old dishonour the Turks won't be able to make it go away just by paying a few bucks. What the Armenians would really like to see, I think, is that the history of the genocide is taught in Turkey to all schoolchildren.


Not true. Many western countries acknowledge it. There is even a monument in France.
Oh, most citizens in most countries know full well the genocide happened. The non-recognition comes from governments.


You can speak for Armenian collective national psyche?
Can you? Have you even talked to an Armenian before? Do you even know what they look like? F off.


That's complete bullshit. The Turks are not joining with Iran or Syria, they are trading with them. And Turkey getting closer to Syria actually mirrors US policy. It also allows Turkey to negotiate with Israel on behalf of Syria. Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about...
I like that last line at the end. See, I've actually been following Turkey's shifting positions vis-a-vis the west and Israel. Erdogan's government is the most Islamist government Turkey's had since the Republic was created by Ataturk. That is why last week the Turkish military, which is secular, was caught plotting an overthrow of the government --- a traditional role of the military in Turkey is to keep it non-Islamist.

Erdogan obviously trades with Syria and Iran and most of the rest of the world, but he has also realigned Turkey's positions to those of Iran and Syria. He's been praising both countries much more vocally in the past few months at a time when Iran and Syria (especially Iran) has been criticized more and more by the west in light of their increasing noncompliance, had a full cabinet-level joint meeting with the Syrian cabinet -- in Syria --, gave diplomatic cover for Iran's nuclear program, claiming it was "peaceful" instead of not expressing an opinion at all, has become much much much more belligerent towards Israel than Turkey's been in years prior...

Anyway, anyone that's been following Turkey in the past year would see it. It's all because the EU not accepting them. "No EU membership? Fine - we'll support terrorist regimes then! How do you like us now?" Carrots and sticks.

You aren't capable of thinking outside of the US borders, are you... You know, there's a state and a people somewhere in the world that might give a shit about this. Jeez... talk about cluelessness and self absorption!

He just got back from living and working in the Mideast and Turkey.

~String

Has it occurred to anyone that maybe Turkey just wants to get out of bed with us, and they're looking for any excuse they can find? If we didn't give them one by re-examining history, I'm sure they'd just make one up.




What a tired argument. The holocaust was largely about the Jews and Hitler's political and racist designs. Pretending otherwise is nothing more than an attempt to deflect what my actual point was. Jews, Slaves, Gypsies, whatever -- my point stands, the Turks did not create an industrial industry to wipe out people. And you've yet to prove killing Jews was about "land" the Nazis already conquered and not about Hitler's racism, which can be documented all the way back to Mein Kampf.



The whole purpose of the Eastern front was to push out the existing slavic residents and re-allocated the land to the Germans. Jewish people often try to make it seem like the Jews were the only people the Nazis hated or mistreated.

The French and English to Germany's west were seen as ethnically pure, so Hitler didn't push them off of their land when he occupied France, but the East was a different matter.

All "great" nations, bar none, are based upon sadistic, mass scale and planned massacres, same as all "great" empires of the history. This is the sine qua non necessity of this "greatness". There is no exception under the sun, and there is no single soul out there who could boldly claim otherwise.

Turks, in general, are very sensitive about emphasizing their "greatness". The main reason -actually, the only reason- behind their adamant rejection of the subject events is that contemporary international perception blames these type of policies: and this part is important, it shadows one's greatness according to modern criteria. That is to say, if international understanding would suddenly shift tomorrow, if the subject events would no longer undermine the "greatness" of Turkish nation, Turks would stop bothering to refuse admitting what happened in the past. Especially, if there wouldn't be any possibility of compensation or apology on the horizon, they would happily -and unfortunately proudly- start to talk about what kinds of atrocities was committed back then. Just as they normally do when no one is around, just as they teach every new generation.

Because the greatness of Turkish nation comes above everything; above humanity, above values, above... just name it.

I'm not really worried about "the furious Turkey." I wonder how many of them know that in our language, their country goes by the same name as one of the stupidest birds ever.
:itold:
Turkey can be quite dangerous when undercooked. A friend was laid out for a good day or so because of post-Thanksgiving leftover mishaps.

I have nothing to fear from them: I just don't eat Turkey.

That would take forever!

Yes. I don't think it's our place to tell another nation how to view history. If we knit-pick over every issue of history we end up. . . well, we end up doing worse than we are doing now, and I don't know if you've been paying attention, but we aren't doing so well right now.

Right now--here and now--the USA needs to worry about bigger things than how the Turks define their history.

I love how people bitch when the USA interferes win another nation's politics, but become sudden apologists for such behavior when there's a fashionable issue out there (i.e. Darfur, Turkey, Rwanda, Tibet).

~String

The US doesn't deny what they have done. The death tolls for vietnam, indians, japanese, and even iraqis are there.

What turkey is doing is denying a genocide.

This is not like Tibet where we stick our noses in and tell them what to do, this is simply about recognizing an event that occurred in the past.There is a difference, and you dont need to be armenian to see it.

I love how people bitch when the USA interferes win another nation's politics, but become sudden apologists for such behavior when there's a fashionable issue out there (i.e. Darfur, Turkey, Rwanda, Tibet).

I don't see that having our own government classify that particular incident as a genocide is interfering with another nation's politics.

I don't see that having our own government classify that particular incident as a genocide is interfering with another nation's politics.

I guess if people want to call that interfering, then every country is guilty all the time. :o

I get "huffy" when people, like you, make inane comparisons you seem all to eager to join. there is nothingh inane about it.
And you did exactly the same thing when you showed your ass about the Kurds a few months back. So clearly something larger is at work. I'm sorry you have a problem with facts.




What a tired argument. The holocaust was largely about the Jews and Hitler's political and racist designs. No it wasn't.
Pretending otherwise is nothing more than an attempt to deflect what my actual point was. you have been arguing that the armenian genocide wasn't a genocide and justified.
Jews, Slaves, Gypsies, whatever -- my point stands, the Turks did not create an industrial industry to wipe out people. and your point is dishonest. there are other mean of genocide like removing population like the turks did.
And you've yet to prove killing Jews was about "land" the Nazis already conquered and not about Hitler's racism, which can be documented all the way back to Mein Kampf. why would I try and prove something irrelevant to my argument. I talking about the slavic victims of the holocaust.




Then shut up about it. than be honest about it




The only hypocrisy came from the person who claimed the city was stolen by the Turks, a position you attempted to defend. So you joined yourself to his stupidity, and I exposed it by showing the Byzantines had no more or less claim on that land than the Turks. My larger point was that in an age of conquest people "owned" what they could keep and little else mattered. So claiming something was stolen when one political entity failed to resist the advance of another is a dubious modern reading of everything that happened. I see your begining to take the dubious page from some of our other members here. you cannot redefine words to suit your purposes. the taking of something by force is by definition theft.




You haven't presented the truth or anything like it. You've presented one side's interpretation, along with your equivocations, which is a smear and has been designed as such. The Armenians are forwarding their position for dubious political reasons, which you have also attached yourself to under some misunderstanding of justice. Don't talk down to me because you lack the human compassion to stand up for what's right. Its not a smear. same old shit its not the truth because I don't like it. I have shown a nearly perfect comparison yet your saying one was bad and one was good.




That's about the most ignorant fucking statement I've seen you post. A diplomat in Los Angles gunned down in the 70s had zilch to do with what happened to Armenians in 1915. Neither did the hundreds of school teachers and school children -- yes children -- who were murdered by the PKK for no other reason than they were at a school. Either you have no idea how ASALA or PKK operate or you're a truly sick person... nah I just understand how hate can fester. But than again some of your alleged professional abilities should be well aware of such things.:p as usual for right wingers you call people ignorant while being ignorant your self. The ASALA stated goal is the recongnization of the genocide. and of course the PPK isn't in that their kurds fighting for a homeland. This is what I expect form the arrogance of people like you. with out the crtimes and the opression the turks have dealt against the armenians and kurds these 2 groups would exist. God you severely lacking in intelligence you proclaim me ignorant and than basiclly prove my argument for me.




I mean that the people who were removed and survived are dead. Nothing can be done for them. So why are we compensating people who clearly are not victims?
human decency you'd be surprised how well it quells violence and hate.







if you have a problem with your darlings being compared to the nazis I could always whip up a couple comparisons to soviet atrocities. Kaytn seems to be apt.

wow, politics turned out to be more complicated than i thought......new field to learn about, niiiice:cool:


The "theft" of Constantinople? What are you on about?
you know, the one carried out with the biggest cannons made at that time..


um, and a small question;

The fact that Turkey has been purchasing its own military equipment [from Israel, which is basically American equipment sold cheaper],
how did you know that?

Israel pioneered UAV technology and is the market leader in it. Turkey wants to buy Israeli weapons while bashing Israel in undiplomatic language and kowtowing to its main enemies. Nice! What else would they like?

HAARP them suckers

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100308/ap_on_re_eu/eu_turkey_earthquake

Israel pioneered UAV technology and is the market leader in it. Turkey wants to buy Israeli weapons while bashing Israel in undiplomatic language and kowtowing to its main enemies. Nice! What else would they like?

did they pioneer UAV's the same way they created the cherry tomato?

Furthermore, the Turks realize that should the amendment pass, the Armenians will seek land and reparations. The Armenians already want reparations, which is why relations between Turkey and Armenia have been so crappy for so long. Anything that the US says isn't likely to make any difference on how pissed the Armenians are at the Turks.
The Holocaust is nothing like what happened in 1915.Yeah. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?

Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?
well scholars know about it as the second most discussed genocide in history.

Jewish people often try to make it seem like the Jews were the only people the Nazis hated or mistreated. No they don't.

That's an anti-Semitic invention of people who want to bury the Holocaust in with all the other massacres of history, as unworthy of special attention by Westerners.


I don't think we should have invaded Iraq, but I don't see how it's as bad as China's invasion and subsequent cultural cleansing of Tibet. Other people, including some very well informed, do. For starters, Iraq is not on the US border with centuries of close geopolitical ties - any justification is not nearly as immediate.

Try working aroung the prop set in stages: compare the Russian invasion of Afghanistan with the Chinese invasion of Tibet. Then the US invasion of Afghanistan (beginning with the natural beginning, under Carter) with the Russian invasion of Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan). Then the US invasion of Iraq ( again, the natural beginning with the '91 war and the sanctions) with the US invasion of Afghanistan.

With regard to Gitmo; abuse in prisons isn't unheard of, and it's not exactly exclusive to America. I'd rather be a suspected terrorist in Gitmo than any sort of prisoner in China. You might want to be a little more careful, there - compare the actual treatment of the actually suspected terrorists in Gitmo (rather than the 14 year old boys and Uighurs and others rounded up for bounty money), a fair percentage of whom did not survive the experience, with the treatment of the ordinary prisoner in China as compared with the ordinary life in China.

And that comparison would of course involve Gitmo - the most closely watched and critiqued of the US "detention" prisons - and thus be very favorably biased to the US in this line of comparison. I doubt you want to go there in general or in detail.

Turkey wants to buy Israeli weapons while bashing Israel in undiplomatic language and kowtowing to its main enemies. Nice! What else would they like? And Israel wants to sell Israeli weapons to everyone persuadable of immediate danger from its designated enemies, and possessed of a high opinion of Israeli military gear and violent capabilities. So it all works out well, from the arms dealing pov - US as well as Israel.

No they don't.

That's an anti-Semitic invention of people who want to bury the Holocaust in with all the other massacres of history, as unworthy of special attention by Westerners. it is unworthy of special attention. The only reason its made to be special is because it involved the jews.

That this issue is far from dead. That it's very important to people. Not to you maybe, who is not a Kurd or an Armenian and couldn't give a shit about either.

I'm not denying it's important to people. I'm arguing that it's important for the wrong reasons and being advanced by the wrong people. Armenia, for example, would receive far more benefit from an open border with Turkey and enhanced trade than any warm feelings of vindication its diaspora get by a bill passed in the US.


Both are drops in the bucket compared to what the Ottomans/Turks have done.

So they don't matter? Only one side is guilty? The other is pure as driven snow? See, that's exactly the kind of pigheaded denial of context that I am arguing against here. It's also exactly what makes the Turks so angry.


Are you a Turk by any chance?

No, I'm the person who isn't "capable of thinking outside of the US borders," remember?


What they really are afraid of is to admit to themselves and to the world that their predecessors did in fact commit genocide. It's a terrible realization that brings with it more than shame. Just ask the Germans.

I've said as much: Turks don't want to be lumped into history with the Nazis. Who would? And is doing that entirely accurate? My argument is no. The Armenians, as I have noted, are trying to ethnically clean an area right now. Apparently, nobody cares...


They are paying monetary compensation for the Nazis' crimes to this day to all the European countries that suffered, and the German economy is doing just fine.

Turkey's economy isn't Germany's.


Can you? Have you even talked to an Armenian before? Do you even know what they look like? F off.

The issue is whether you can speak for Armenian collective national psyche, as you claimed to. I think it's patently obvious you can't and are now trying to deflect that with irrelevant questions -- both of which I can answer with affirmatives. So who should fuck off now?


I like that last line at the end. See, I've actually been following Turkey's shifting positions vis-a-vis the west and Israel. Erdogan's government is the most Islamist government Turkey's had since the Republic was created by Ataturk. That is why last week the Turkish military, which is secular, was caught plotting an overthrow of the government --- a traditional role of the military in Turkey is to keep it non-Islamist.

Close, but not quite. If you've been "following" Turkey, then you can't read very well. The arrests last week were part of a large investigation that's been going on for some time. So it was "caught" a long time ago (the plot dates to 2003 and it is not entirely believed in some circles).


Erdogan obviously trades with Syria and Iran and most of the rest of the world, but he has also realigned Turkey's positions to those of Iran and Syria. He's been praising both countries much more vocally in the past few months at a time when Iran and Syria (especially Iran) has been criticized more and more by the west in light of their increasing noncompliance, had a full cabinet-level joint meeting with the Syrian cabinet -- in Syria --, gave diplomatic cover for Iran's nuclear program, claiming it was "peaceful" instead of not expressing an opinion at all, has become much much much more belligerent towards Israel than Turkey's been in years prior...

I read two Turkish papers everyday and meet with Turks on a weekly basis. You're reading of Turkish foreign policy is earnest but inaccurate and it appears to be the product of bias grafted onto a surface understanding of the issues. There are several books and articles I could suggest to help clear up matters, but I doubt you would take such suggestions seriously.



I'm sorry you have a problem with facts.

I love facts. Post some, and I'll consider them.



No it wasn't. you have been arguing that the armenian genocide wasn't a genocide and justified. and your point is dishonest. there are other mean of genocide like removing population like the turks did. why would I try and prove something irrelevant to my argument. I talking about the slavic victims of the holocaust.

You were talking nonsense and still are.


I see your begining to take the dubious page from some of our other members here. you cannot redefine words to suit your purposes. the taking of something by force is by definition theft.

Theft and conquest are two different things. Try and understand that. Or read a book about it.


Don't talk down to me because you lack the human compassion to stand up for what's right. Its not a smear. same old shit its not the truth because I don't like it. I have shown a nearly perfect comparison yet your saying one was bad and one was good.

I'll talk down to you because you are woefully uneducated on this issue and are posting little more than grammatically incorrect brain farts, based on your emotions and your opinion. Heck, you can't even read or follow my arguments. I mean, you write this ...


you have been arguing that the armenian genocide wasn't a genocide and justified.

... which clearly means you didn't read or were not capable of understanding me when I wrote: "The 'Turks forcibly removed' the Armenians, so I'm acknowledging the removal and death of about 1.5 million Armenians. That quote was reminding you of an earlier post. Now I am reminding you again, for the second time? Either you're not very bright or you are intentionally distorting my positions and railing against a straw man of your own creation.


The ASALA stated goal is the recongnization of the genocide. and of course the PPK isn't in that their kurds fighting for a homeland. This is what I expect form the arrogance of people like you. with out the crtimes and the opression the turks have dealt against the armenians and kurds these 2 groups would exist. God you severely lacking in intelligence you proclaim me ignorant and than basiclly prove my argument for me.

I cannot even begin to understand the point you are trying to make with the gibberish. But I believe you're trying to excuse terrorism?


it is unworthy of special attention. The only reason its made to be special is because it involved the jews.

I should probably let Ice respond, as he has already posted the rationale position, but I can't help but note that the above is an amazing piece of ignorance, that may very well be masking not so subtle antisemitism.

Turkey threatens America
When thanksgiving goes bad.

I love facts. Post some, and I'll consider them. I have. you ignored them





You were talking nonsense and still are. No I'm talking sense. Typical you label anything you dislike as nonsense.




Theft and conquest are two different things. Try and understand that. Or read a book about it. ??? really conquest 2 seprate things. lets see theft taking of things through force. conquest taking of things be force. the only difference is in scale.




I'll talk down to you because you are woefully uneducated on this issue and are posting little more than grammatically incorrect brain farts, based on your emotions and your opinion. more bullshit. Your talking down to me because your an arrogant prick who thinks he's better than those who disagree with him.
Heck, you can't even read or follow my arguments. I can read a follow your arguments. Your just all over the place.




... which clearly means you didn't read or were not capable of understanding me when I wrote: "The 'Turks forcibly removed' the Armenians, so I'm acknowledging the removal and death of about 1.5 million Armenians. That quote was reminding you of an earlier post. Now I am reminding you again, for the second time? Either you're not very bright or you are intentionally distorting my positions and railing against a straw man of your own creation. I choose option 3 your don't understand what your writing. Do you not understand what putting something in quotes means. I'm not distorting your argument. You can claim you have admitted it genocide all you want except for the fact you have avoided using the word and used dismissive quotes when referring to it. Your just being flat out dishonest. You counted on people being to stupid to figure out your dishonesty sorry but I'm not. You just showed here. if you admit its a genocide than use the word.




I cannot even begin to understand the point you are trying to make with the gibberish. probably to bust exalting yourself.
But I believe you're trying to excuse terrorism? that's just your strawmanning. I'm not excusing just acknowledging the reason for it. Something you've shown to be against. well guess what acknowledging and addressing the roots of terrorism stopped terrorism is Ireland it work here.




I should probably let Ice respond, as he has already posted the rationale position, but I can't help but note that the above is an amazing piece of ignorance, that may very well be masking not so subtle antisemitism.No he's posted something repeated ad nauseam with no evidence. Still relying on insults and arrogance as if you think that makes a point. There is nothing antisemitic in saying the holocaust isn't special. its not. There were genocides through out history that killed more, more brutal, or killed a greater percentage of a target people. Where is the specialness of the holocaust?

PJ, let me know when you (grow up) and have a point. Right now, you're just whining and beating your fists and demanding that subpar opinions be taken seriously. That is, your last post was little more than the intellectual equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and yelling over and over that you're right.

Meanwhile, back on topic, I found this in the Times, written by a contemporary scholar:

“What is needed is a vaguer description for the events of 1915, avoiding the G-word but clearly connoting criminal acts of slaughter, to which reasonable scholars can subscribe,” thereby promoting “a cultural and historical meeting between today’s Turks, Kurds and Armenians.”

I'm all for that, provided it be tied to context and substantive change -- change that actually matters, so let's call it progress -- between the Turkish and Armenian people. The current bill is nothing of the sort.

how did you know that?

I read, I remember, I make connections. :p

http://www.sundayszaman.com/sunday/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=184792

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060116.html

If you read widely enough on any country, it gives you a feel for what their aims are.

well scholars know about it as the second most discussed genocide in history.
Actually that was a quote from Hitler, talking about why he thought they would be able to get away with killing the jews.

I read, I remember, I make connections. :p

http://www.sundayszaman.com/sunday/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=184792

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060116.html

If you read widely enough on any country, it gives you a feel for what their aims are.

I'm sorry, what's your point?