http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/85808B77-58B8-4C00-866C-7F38FEB253A7.htm

Apparently, the Turks are at the gates.

What ought to be the American, Iraqi, and international response?

Turkey is a hornet's nest that the US, UK and most of Europe would be very reluctant to upset.

Good news, sounds like democracy is spreading rapidly in the ME, extending all the way to North Africa.

Reaching pretty close to the borders of Europe too, so it should be fun for everyone soon.

turkey wont attack.
EU membership would be barred to them forever, for waging a war of aggression.

and remember: everything is about economics.

Wait, so Israel is allowed to pre-emptively strike Lebanon. America is pre-emptively allowed to strike Iraq (and Iran, if necessary). But Turkey is not allowed to pre-emptively strike the PUK, which is a terrorist organization? Yes, even the US recognizes the PUK as a terrorist organization. If a nation is threatened by an outside force, I think the victim has the right to attack.

To avoid this, the Kurds and the US simply have to dismantle all of the PUK bases and arrest all of it's leaders. In fact, the US is obligated to do it, since it is fighting a "War on Terror". Of course, by not doing so and being complacent about it, Turkey should be allowed to take matters into it's own hands.

turkey wont attack. ... True, but Turkey will be fighting to prevent the southern Kurdish part of Turkey from breaking away from Turkey to become part of Kurdistan.

More than a year and half ago, I predicted here in sciforums that the end result of GWB's failure to understand that Iraq has never been a nation* would be a civil war (that part of my prediction is now in progress) which after many dead (>300,000) finally burns out into tri-part division of Iraq. My prediction was also that within two years after Kurdistan exists, Turkey will be in civil war. Perhaps also a regional war with Saudi Arabia vs. Iran, but I think, and hope, it is possible to avoid that still.
---------------------------------
* Fundamental reason for this is the norm is to marry a second cousin. This produces great extended, blood-related clans - the first loyalty. The second loyalty is to their version of Islam. No one gives a shit about the "nation" that the British Foreign Office created out of three divergent groups to make it easier to control them, playing one off against the other two as needs arose. Saddam was hidden by his blood clan. Hundreds of different people knew where he was (perhaps only 10 or so at a time) during this period, but they would not turn him in for money anymore than you would sell you mother for money. Family honor is tha most important standard - brother must kill a sister who is sleeping around to protect the family/clan honor. Failure still to understand this basic structure of that society is why the latest escalation will only serve as an excuse to blame the Iraq government for the US's stupid miss adventure which has converted Iraq into a live-fire training ground for terrorist and greatly increased their recruits. Etc.

Turkey has been fighting the Kurds for decades.

I say screw it give the kurds a homeland take a bit of Iraq, Iran and Turkey and give them a state. Only in Iraq (I believe) is the land the kurds are sitting on worth anything more than just the land (not certain about Iran). I am guessing the return isn't worth the effort for turkey. Also folks from the middle east are always complaining about arbitrary borders drawn up by the colonial powers, well this seems like a fairly cut and dry case where a specific and large ethnic group can be given borders to reflect that.

Of course I realize the political reality is a world away but I think it is theoretically a good idea.

Just remembered they could probably drum up support in the muslim world by reminding everyone that Saleh al Din (Saladin) was a Kurd.

Turkey has been fighting the Kurds for decades.
Turks used to employ Kurds as go betweens when they ruled over Arabs. Kind of like taskmasters.

* Fundamental reason for this is the norm is to marry a second cousin. This produces great extended, blood-related clans - the first loyalty. The second loyalty is to their version of Islam. No one gives a shit about the "nation" that the British Foreign Office created out of three divergent groups to make it easier to control them, playing one off against the other two as needs arose. Saddam was hidden by his blood clan. Hundreds of different people knew where he was (perhaps only 10 or so at a time) during this period, but they would not turn him in for money anymore than you would sell you mother for money. Family honor is tha most important standard - brother must kill a sister who is sleeping around to protect the family/clan honor. Failure still to understand this basic structure of that society is why the latest escalation will only serve as an excuse to blame the Iraq government for the US's stupid miss adventure which has converted Iraq into a live-fire training ground for terrorist and greatly increased their recruits. Etc.
my father was a turkish kurd.
you are absolutely correct.

SamCDKey:

So you support Turkey's invasion of Iraq?

SamCDKey:

So you support Turkey's invasion of Iraq?

Of course, we need more democracy in the ME. And apparently war is the only way we can get it.

Of course, we need more democracy in the ME. And apparently war is the only way we can get it.I doubt both these statements, but will only address the first. IMHO, most if not all of the ME is, at least for many generations, better governed by powerful, hopefully moderate, leaders, such as Alatola Sistanni. If the US stopped making the mess there worse every day, perhaps a theocracy under him might still be possible for the south of Iraq.

The US does not have the slightest understanding of the problem - See my last post. (#6)

Now that about everyone not on the government’s payroll, who can speak English has fled to Jordan or Siria, there are not enough translators for the 21,500 new troops* to even communicate with the people whose house they want to search. How would you feel if some foreign occupier in a flack jacket, carrying a UZI type gun forced your door open and by hand signals only told your wife and child to get out into the street? etc. All these people want is a fair strong leader, some peace, electricity at least a few hours each day and for the invaders to then go home -certainly not "democracy."
-----------------------------
*Almost all as totally ignorant of the local social structure /customs as GWB is. - See my last post. (#6)

SamCDKey:

So you think that Turkey is a bringer of Democracy?

I think SamCDKey is being sarcastic.
I'm Turkish by the way. No, Turkey won't attack Kurds I guess, even it attacks it's not attacking Kurds it's attacking PKK camps. All Kurds don't support PKK. Turkish companies are very active in Kurdish cities in Iraq and Kurds are not hostile against Turks. PKK is a Marxist-Leninist organization. Iraqi Kurds clearly said they're not supporting PKK. But some Turkish media claim they support. I'm not pro-Turkish government and I believe in peace and I know Kurds are not traited fair in Turkey. I'm sorry for them.

I wish they would...

True, but Turkey will be fighting to prevent the southern Kurdish part of Turkey from breaking away from Turkey to become part of Kurdistan.

More than a year and half ago, I predicted here in sciforums that the end result of GWB's failure to understand that Iraq has never been a nation* would be a civil war (that part of my prediction is now in progress) which after many dead (>300,000) finally burns out into tri-part division of Iraq. My prediction was also that within two years after Kurdistan exists, Turkey will be in civil war. Perhaps also a regional war with Saudi Arabia vs. Iran, but I think, and hope, it is possible to avoid that still.
---------------------------------
* Fundamental reason for this is the norm is to marry a second cousin. This produces great extended, blood-related clans - the first loyalty. The second loyalty is to their version of Islam. No one gives a shit about the "nation" that the British Foreign Office created out of three divergent groups to make it easier to control them, playing one off against the other two as needs arose. Saddam was hidden by his blood clan. Hundreds of different people knew where he was (perhaps only 10 or so at a time) during this period, but they would not turn him in for money anymore than you would sell you mother for money. Family honor is tha most important standard - brother must kill a sister who is sleeping around to protect the family/clan honor. Failure still to understand this basic structure of that society is why the latest escalation will only serve as an excuse to blame the Iraq government for the US's stupid miss adventure which has converted Iraq into a live-fire training ground for terrorist and greatly increased their recruits. Etc.

This makes much sense.

Kurds in Turkey are mostly not seperatists. They only need more attention from the government and less racism from the fascist lumpens. No one would bother to start a civil war to establish a poor Kurdish country. They're smart people they're fine in Turkey. Millions of Kurds live in Turkey and the seperatist PKK has only 5000 militants. All war predictions are inaccurate. Western media has to stop war paranoias.

Can anyone fill me in on how/why Kurds are supposedly persecuted in Turkey??

I can understand Arabs and blacks in AMerica, they look different...but many Kurds I have seen seem to look just like Turks....is it a cultural thing?

Can anyone fill me in on how/why Kurds are supposedly persecuted in Turkey??

I can understand Arabs and blacks in AMerica, they look different...but many Kurds I have seen seem to look just like Turks....is it a cultural thing?

That is a good point. They don't look different. They speak Turkish fluent and Turks and Kurds are marrying each other. Turkey has a mixed culture. Western media is exaggerating it. There are many people of Kurdish descent in parliament. There were prime ministers of Kurdish descent.
I read about Kurds and Turks online and I think like "Are they really talking about Turkey?"

That is a good point. They don't look different. They speak Turkish fluent and Turks and Kurds are marrying each other. Turkey has a mixed culture. Western media is exaggerating it. There are many people of Kurdish descent in parliament. There were prime ministers of Kurdish descent.
I read about Kurds and Turks online and I think like "Are they really talking about Turkey?"

Most stuff in Western media is like that.

When I lived in the ME, that was a general reaction in the people who watched satellite TV and got Western news. "Are they talking about us?"

Most stuff in Western media is like that.

When I lived in the ME, that was a general reaction in the people who watched satellite TV and got Western news. "Are they talking about us?"

The article came from Al Jazeera. :p

The article came from Al Jazeera. :p

Who wrote it?:)

Anyway I was responding to the comment not the article.

Media is not controlled by the people writing for it. The editors and owners control the content.

Media is not controlled by the people writing for it. The editors and owners control the content.

And that proves what?

Al-Jazeera is an Arab publication.

The Turks are not Arabs.

I was not talking about Al-Jazeera by the way. :)

I was not talking about Al-Jazeera by the way. :)

Thats okay, neither was I.:p

Is Turkey ME?:confused:


edit: huh???/
*rubs eyes*

Is Turkey ME?:confused:


edit: huh???/
*rubs eyes*

It's considered as a ME country despite European influence. But it's a controversial thing, some don't include Turkey in the ME

It's considered as a ME country despite European influence. But it's a controversial thing, some don't include Turkey in the ME

How do Turks see themselves? Closer to Arabs or Europeans?

(I knew a Turkish girl a couple of years ago and she seemed very European to me)

How do Turks see themselves? Closer to Arabs or Europeans?

(I knew a Turkish girl a couple of years ago and she seemed very European to me)

Turks don't like Arabs. Arabs don't like Turks. (Because Turkey is a secular country and Turks are not religious and western)
/most

Turks see themselves more European than being Middle Eastern. You're right it is like a European country. Despite Islam culture is similar to western rather than other muslim societies. Ataturk is the chief architect.

Kurds in Turkey are mostly not separatists. They only need more attention from the government and less racism from the fascist lumpens. No one would bother to start a civil war to establish a poor Kurdish country....I agree, but that is not the choice soon available. - After a very rich Kurdistan exists just across the border in what was N.E. Iraq.

Also note that normally when a population breaks away from a central government that is hurting / abusing / exploiting them (for example the 13 colonies that became the USA) only a very small fraction of "rabble rousers" (Patrick Payne in the US example) are in the beginning openly calling for a break with the existing government.

I think, the attraction of being part of an oil rich country (Kurdistan) which does not make it illegal to educate your children in your native tongue, burn down apartment buildings (as was done again just a few weeks ago) where "revolutionaries" may have met, etc. will be strong and many who now are passive Kurdish Turks will become Kurds, fighting for their nation.

Turkey is a very intolerant or repressive society when ones loyalty to the state is public in doubt. - Try saying that Turkey made genocide on the Armenians in public and see what happens to you. For another example: it is illegal to call oneself a "Kurdish Turk." - Some out spoken people are in jail for having done so. - So it is very hard to actually know what fraction of the ethnic Kurds, now living in Turkey are anxious already to be part of Kurdistan. Those that have indicated support for the PKK are treaded harshly. There is no reason to believe, as you do, that Kurdistan supporters, now living in Turkey, are a small minority, instead of simply "the silent majority," waiting until rich Kurdistan exist, and can supply them with modern weapons etc. - That why my prediction says: "two years after Kurdistan exists" there will be a civil war in Turkey. - More of the mess GWB is making in the ME because of his extreme ignorance. - See post 6 for details about this ignorance.

I agree, but that is not the choice soon available. - After a very rich Kurdistan exists just across the border in what was N.E. Iraq.

Also note that normally when a population breaks away from a central government that is hurting / abusing / exploiting them (for example the 13 colonies that became the USA) only a very small fraction of "rabble rousers" (Patrick Payne in the US example) are in the beginning openly calling for a break with the existing government.

I think, the attraction of being part of an oil rich country (Kurdistan) which does not make it illegal to educate your children in your native tongue, burn down apartment buildings (as was done again just a few weeks ago) where "revolutionaries" may have met, etc. will be strong and many who now are passive Kurdish Turks will become Kurds, fighting for their nation.

Turkey is a very intolerant or repressive society when ones loyalty to the state is public in doubt. - Try saying that Turkey made genocide on the Armenians in public and see what happens to you. For another example: it is illegal to call oneself a "Kurdish Turk." - Some out spoken people are in jail for having done so. - So it is very hard to actually know what fraction of the ethnic Kurds, now living in Turkey are anxious already to be part of Kurdistan. Those that have indicated support for the PKK are treaded harshly. There is no reason to believe, as you do, that Kurdistan supporters, now living in Turkey, are a small minority, instead of simply "the silent majority," waiting until rich Kurdistan exist, and can supply them with modern weapons etc. - That why my prediction says: "two years after Kurdistan exists" there will be a civil war in Turkey. - More of the mess GWB is making in the ME because of his extreme ignorance. - See post 6 for details about this ignorance.
End of the world scenarios are very trendy nowadays, which irritates me

Kirkuk has the oil where many Turkmens live. Turkish government wouldn't let Kurds to dominate Kirkuk or have the oil as far as I can see at the scene. If Turkey sees Kirkuk in danger it will act. There are dirty games being played at the background. Right now I don't predict Turkish army entering Iraq. Turkmens are a Turkish speaking minority which Turkish nationalists play their cards on. Kirkuk is Turkish and will remain Turkish, they say.
Even Kurds have the oil they cannot be a rich country. It's %40 of all oil in Iraq. Considering how "rich" Iraq was. Turkish nationalists would do the same thing they did to Armenians and never give any city. Kurds would not fight against Turkey, especially Turkish ones. Kurds in Turkey are way more loyal to this country than you can imagine. We saw how those so called Middle East experts are really experts in Iraq. And life is not like what you see in western news sources.
This is not what I want, this is what I think would (not) happen. I'm not pro-Turkish government, I'd be cool Kurds and their cities leaving Turkey but this is just conspiracy theory.

Education in mother tongue, denial of Armenian massacres and repressive and angry society issues are very accurate. But not like portrayed in the west.This is what all the writers in the Turkish media saying now. This is what EU accession talks are about. This is the biggest problem in Turkey.

But I can't see a civil war or rich Kurdistan, or a Kurdish dominated Kirkuk.

Anyway like you said, in fact nothing can be predicted %100 accurately. We'll all watch what will happen in the following years.

But like I said I don't like end of the world conspiracies. And so called Middle East experts who produce politics-fiction and earn money.

...Kurds would not fight against Turkey, especially Turkish ones. Kurds in Turkey are way more loyal to this country than you can imagine...What evidence do you have to support this? (I gave several reasons for thinking the opposite in post 32. Can you give any reason for your POV?)

As far a Kurdistan being rich or not we will just have to disagree. - 40% of Iraq's oil reserves (and not yet a region well explored*, compared to the parts of Iraq with good connection to the sea) distributed over a relatively small population is my idea of "RICH" - "filty rich" if they can keep Kirkuk area from the Suni.
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*There is good geologic reason to think that when this area is explored, more oil will be found there than all of Saudi Arabia! If true - then Kurdistan will be "filty rich" even if the Sunis get all the oil near Kirkuk. (I am not sure we are speaking of the same city by "Kirkuk" - I mean the one in Iraq that has a mixed kurd /suni population and is arleady a region exporting oil via a pipe line thru Turkey (when it has not been blown up recently - You seem to be speaking of one in Turkey?) Forbies had an article about a month ago on some small oil company that was wild cating in this reagion despite the civil war, lack of any legal authority yet, etc. because the prospects are so great.

What evidence do you have to support this? (I gave several reasons for thinking the opposite in post 32. Can you give any reason for your POV?)
I don't need evidence to unprove them, because you don't provide evidence. But one evidence would be: I'm living in Turkey, in a city where many Kurds live.

Kurds care for their survival now. When US troops are out of Iraq, there would be crazy Arabs and traitor (for Arabs) Kurds on the map. And we'll see the real Kurdish genocide. They don't need or desire to establish a greater Kurdistan. You don't consider buying a yatch when your life is in danger. I'm concerned about the region. I've read many interviews with Kurdish leaders. Kurds are Turkey's friend, which Turkey should help, save them from jihadist Arabs. I care for this people but the "west" somehow wants to make Turks and Kurds attack each other. Who else would they sell their weapons otherwise? This is the dirty world of weapons dealers.

And don't get me started on imaginary oil resources. Like the people say south east Turkey has more oil than Saudi Arabia.

SamCDKey:

Turkey is hardly European.

In fact, the Turks have been our enemies of all Europeans for a thousand years.

This is why we made sure to destroy the Ottoman Empire in WWI. We never wanted Turkey to even come close to batting against the gates of Vienna again.

They are also racially different. Turks are Turkic peoples, speaking a Turkic languages. Europeans are 99 percent Indo-European and Indo-European speaking.

SamCDKey:

Turkey is hardly European.

In fact, the Turks have been our enemies of all Europeans for a thousand years.

This is why we made sure to destroy the Ottoman Empire in WWI. We never wanted Turkey to even come close to batting against the gates of Vienna again.

They are also racially different. Turks are Turkic peoples, speaking a Turkic languages. Europeans are 99 percent Indo-European and Indo-European speaking.

Do you know any Turks?

PS. There is no such thing as race, biologically.

Plus are you sure you don't have a bit of Genghis Khan in you?:p

PS. There is no such thing as race, biologically.

Yeah, so when we see someone who looks different to us, we should cut out their liver and have it analyzed by a biologist!!


Plus are you sure you don't have a bit of Genghis Khan in you?

I don't know about Prince James, but I've got some Geronimo blood coursing thru my veins ....and damned proud of it, too.

Baron Max

Do you know any Turks?

PS. There is no such thing as race, biologically.

Plus are you sure you don't have a bit of Genghis Khan in you?:p
Just avoid the Prince. He's like the typical nationalists in Turkey. Just change the mentality a little. He also says all muslims should be exterminated. I'm confused how doesn't he get banned here?

And for bloody Genghis, some Turks still respect him and Attila. Funny how history can be so different amongst people.

Yeah, so when we see someone who looks different to us, we should cut out their liver and have it analyzed by a biologist!!

A blood sample will do.

Just avoid the Prince. He's like the typical nationalists in Turkey. Just change the mentality a little. He also says all muslims should be exterminated. I'm confused how doesn't he get banned here?

And for bloody Genghis, some Turks still respect him and Attila. Funny how history can be so different amongst people.

You must not take the Prince too seriously. He is from a different age, one with Samurais and blood and honor. Some quaint ideas. But he's pretty fair in his dealings though a bit bombastic in his proclamations.:p

As for Genghis Khan, I was referring to this (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=58468). He's my favorite tyrant, ever since I saw him played by Omar Sharif.:o

Apparently, the Turks are at the gates.

What ought to be the American, Iraqi, and international response?US won't lift a finger, if Turkey does anything.

In fact, the Turks have been our enemies of all Europeans for a thousand years.

You are not even European.

You are not even European.

....but of European decent.

....but of European decent.

So what? US culture has little to do anymore with European culture. The difference between turkey and Europe are probably smaller than between the US and Europe.

So what? US culture has little to do anymore with European culture. The difference between turkey and Europe are probably smaller than between the US and Europe.

Genes, I guess. It must be something in the European bloodstream that causes our dear Prince James to hate the Turks. I, myself, blame you spuriousmonkey.

I don't think Prince James needs much to hate anyone. Just a name or colour.

So, do you admit that you, personally are to blame for this adversity?

Not really. I didn't raise the guy, nor did I contribute to his genetic makeup, nor have I been part of the culture in which he was brought up.

If anything he should be a bloody socialist if I had any influence on him.

So...the truth comes out. You caused Prince James to hate socialism and by extension everything else. I see... thank you for your testamony...we'll get to the bottom of this situation right away.

So...the truth comes out. You caused Prince James to hate socialism and by extension everything else. I see... thank you for your testamony...we'll get to the bottom of this situation right away.

testimony.

testimony.

I knew I spelled that word wrong; I was seeing if you knew... I thought it would be suspicious if you didn't.

I had nothing better to reply than that. And I knew you knew that. So I did what I did.

Oniw17:

I do love you. That was a brilliant exchange.

SamCDKey:

I rather loved your appraisal of me. Thank you. Very well put.

But as to your other post:

I do not know any Turks personally, no. That is, I have met one or two Turks in my life, but I do not know them personally. The closest I get isn't very close at all - Egyptians and Greeks.

Moreover, I would contest the notion that there is "no such thing as race biologically". Race follows along the lines of haplotypes and amongst general bone structure (forensics investigators can tell if one is white or black from one's bones) and other features. Similarly, any individual in any race may be rather similar to people even of other races genetically, but groups taken as a whole do share more common genetics. This is proven by race-dominant diseases and medicine that is used to treat only one race, such as this one: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8336206.

And I wouldn't mind having a bit of Ghenghis Khan in me. Even if he was a Turko-Mongolian. ;) I'll guess I'll have to settle for um...King Arthur and William the Conqueror? Maybe Frederick Barbarossa? Charlemagne, mayhaps?

Interesting: My surname actually derives from Norman nobility, so the William the Conqueror thing might not be too far off!

Spuriousmonkey:

I'd have you find where I ever said I hated anyone based on colour?

I hate people based on their beliefs.

Mindtrick:

I've never called for the extermination of Moslems. I have no problem with Moslems in Moslem lands. I simply do not want them in European and European-derived lands, nor do I think their lives valuable if they launch a nuclear strike against us (which was where I said "every last Moslem would be killed" if such were to happen).

I'd also like to go out on the record as saying at least one positive thing about Islam: I think Sufi poetry is great.

Oniw17:

I'd also like to go out on the record as saying at least one positive thing about Islam: I think Sufi poetry is great.

What about the great music traditions that the Ottomans spread throughout the region? Flamenco is derived from Andalus music, which is highly meditative and pretty complex and sounds very Eastern indeed. Greek bouzouki music originated in Asia Minor and the scales used are heavily influenced by Ottoman taxims. Ethnic music throughout North Africa and Arabia is all influenced by the same Ottoman Turks (Sufis).

The Ottomans also introduced their highly sophisticated cuisine throughout the region and if you like Doner kebab, Greek, Lebanese or Syrian food you'll have a fair idea of what it's about, only it's better.

One more thing, the Ottomans never attempted to convert Christians and basically left them to practice their own religion without too much harrasment and they never even levied any taxes on Christian church properties.

I say all this as a Greek.

I am not particularly fond of Middle Eastern music. I do not hate it, but I am not a big fan.

I do, however, like kebabs. They are good. But I could live without them, as I'd rather have the Turks stay the Hell out of Europe. I do not view conquerors who attempted to invade the whole of Europe as a benevolent force. Nor ones who abducted Europeans to fight as slaves in their empire (the Jannisary).

Basically, I am pro-Vlad Tepes.