A friend of my wife's recently told her that when she got pregnant she was still an unmarried virgin. Apparently she'd had sexual intercourse without penetration and without even taking her panties off!
When I recounted this story to some friends, nobody was surprised, apparently it used to be a common phenomenon for women to suffer from only partially broken hymens which needed to be removed surgically before a woman could give birth.
So much for the 'holy' virgin Mary, ie, it wouldn't have been unusual for women to have had 'virgin' pregnancies in those days. Only, probably it wasn't talked about.

I have read that a "virgin" birth also was a convenient way for a woman who was not married to explain away a pregnancy, back in the "old days" a couple thousand years ago or so.

Oh, duh. Please tell me this is supposed to be funny?

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

If I meant funny I would have written a joke!
It's a true story.

No unfortunatly Lori it is a threatning gesture. We are satanic ritualists trying to undermine the sacred word of your God.

Seriously I think with all this crazy fanaticm and stuff, I think you people are totally losing track of what Jesus was saying. "God" seems to fufil the fuction of a role model, a being who everyone should look up too. Mabye Jesus just made up God so that he could be sure that his teachings would last 2000 years and beyond and inspire people to do great things. He knew that no human (or other) thing would ever surpass the infinite. So he said that an infinite God instructed him. Perfect.

Of course he had good intentions, but this stuff about an infinite God was not meant, I think, to be the central role of Christianity. Instead it was meant to set humanity on a good and stable path that would allow it to achieve many things. Indeed this is a very smart and good man. But I think Buddha and mabye Muhammed were just as good.

Did anybody even check the "virgin" Mary for virginity? Maybe she was screwing around on Joseph and needed a way out that wouldn't cost her her life. Adultery carried the death sentence (for women, at least). Anyway, how long had they been married before she became pregnant? Did they ever consummate their marriage?

Come on, this is silly. What do you really need to see to believe? Mary's chart at the doctor's office? If the Bible says that she was a virgin, then she was, but truly that is irrelevant. I would imagine that God chose a virgin for a good reason, but He certainly didn't have to. The Bible talks about other spirits fathering children with humans. Greek and Roman mythology does too. Did you know that Alexander the Great believed that he was a demi-god? He claimed that his mother visited a place where people could have sex with spirits, and she got pregnant with him. That's what he claimed, no lie.



------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

The bible does not say Mary was a virgin, not really. The hebrew word for virgin also means young woman, so she was not neccesarily a virgin. She was also probasbly 13 or 14, so she probably wasnt "screwing around."

1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, 3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram, 4 Ram the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon, 5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse,

Skip a few to matthew 1:16. The ones I skipped followed the same pattern. The last one does not for some odd reason.

Matthew 1:16
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Matthew doesn't say Joseph was Jesus' biological father, only that he was Mary's husband and Jesus was her son, thus possibly confirming the virgin birth. The purpose of Matthew's geneology was to show that though Jesus is not Josephs biological son, he is his legal son. Thus his ancestory could be traced back to King David. Mary was a virgin. Its pretty clear in the bible. Most people deny the virgin birth because they don't believe in miracles. But the problem is that in their mind miracles do not occur. In reality this is not the case.

Luke also gives us a geneology.

Luke 3:23
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

He was the son so it was thought? The virgin birth seems to be hinted at even when the word virgin isn't used.

You said """"The hebrew word for virgin also means young woman, so she was not neccesarily a virgin.""""

The hebrew word may have two meanings but what about the greek word? Shouldn't the nt be able to tell us which definition was meant in the ot? I think so.

The virgin birth is somewhat vital to christianity. A few things rest upon it. For instance, the idea of Jesus being without sin.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!



[This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited December 13, 1999).]

Lori-If the bible tells you to kill, would you?

Sure, but thankfully it says the exact opposite, sooooooo?????? What is your point exactly? You know though, if the Bible DID say that killing was a good thing, or somehow justifiable, then I may have not been led down the same path. I believe the Word because it makes sense to me, but maybe it wouldn't make sense to me if the Word was different. But it's not different, so?????? I'm confused.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Ok, Oxygen, now I get to do the same thing to you....what if the Bible is true?

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

AND... How about those three wise men??? Now, you KNOW that's gotta be true... Think about it! Of course, there must have been many, many wise men living at that time. Being men, of course, only three of them would ask for directions!!!

TSHSHSHSHHHH!!!! (That's the sound of cymbals clashing). :)

Doesn't it bother anyone that pregnancy without some kind of sexual contact is simply impossible amongst humans?? Was Mary non-human, that she could reproduce asexually? Santa Clause exists too, right?

SkyeBlue,

You might consider it impossible amongst humans, however, it is an absolute certainty that if God wanted to impregnate a woman, what we consider "human sexual contact" would not have to take place. This does not bother me. God's miraculous ways never bother me.

Lori-Although the exact location of the passage eludes me at the moment, the bible says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." It's not one of the ten commandments, but I think the language is pretty clear, and it's attributed to god.

If the bible turns out to be true to the letter, I will accept my damnation without complaint. Either that or I'll point at 666 and say "He did it!" :D

Truestory: The bible never says 3 wise men, that number is inferred from the three gifts given to the baby. And the wise men were probobly astrologers, and had been hired to spy on the baby Jesus so King Herod could kill him. Just a little bit of background :)

Oxygen: That passage is in Deuteronomy, I forget where. That was part of the Jewish code of law, which Jesus said not to follow so strictly. Jesus, in effect, repealed many of those laws, preaching forgiveness and love instead of intolerance and punishment.

Corp.,

You're correct about the Bible never giving a number but, spies?!?!?!?!?! Now, that's a bit of something that I don't know where in the world you're coming from. Did they watch the stars and make use of them? I'm sure they did. We still do today. The stars helped me in basic tanning. However, I know that they control nothing. They make useful tools to know where you are at and what time. If these guys made a trek to see the baby Jesus, and were watching for the signs that prophesy was being fulfilled about Him, why would the waste time in astrology?

Love and Prayers,
ISDAMan

Ilgwamh,
quote:
Luke 3:23
-Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

He was the son so it was thought? The virgin birth seems to be hinted at even when the word virgin isn't used.-


I don't think most people would immediately think of virgin births if a child's sire was suspect.
More likely, a word beginning with b would spring to mind, far more readily.

I remember somebody writing a well researched and feasible theory on the likelihood that Jesus was sired by a Roman soldier. The young Mary would have been shamefully stigmatised for the rest of her life if she'd stayed in her home village, so the kind Joseph who was much older than her, offered to marry her and take her away, where she wasn't known. Apparently, so the story goes, this soldier evolved into the Roman Centurion who later showed faith in Jesus.

[This message has been edited by tablariddim (edited December 15, 1999).]

Oxygen,

What I need to know is what does "suffer to live" mean? Does that specifically mean to kill? Probably not. Also, I'd need to know whether it's Old or New Test. The rules changed when Jesus came.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

True'-

So nobody had sex with Mary, and God created some magic sperm that he fertilized her egg with? Hmm, sounds like a bunch of hooey to me. Nature just doesn't work that way. I'm sure you're going to say something along the lines that God isn't the same as nature, but that just doesn't work with my brain. It sounds too much like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy to me. A pretty myth, with some good lessons and moral stories, but not to be taken literally.

""""I remember somebody writing a well researched and feasible theory on the likelihood that Jesus was sired by a Roman soldier. The young Mary would have been shamefully stigmatised for the rest of her life if she'd stayed in her home village, so the kind Joseph who was much older than her, offered to marry her and take her away, where she wasn't known. Apparently, so the story goes, this soldier evolved into the Roman Centurion who later showed faith in Jesus.""""

It may have been well researched and feasible but it isn't true. It contradicts the Bible. (That last satatement will probably draw harsh criticism....bring it on :)) I believe that guy's name was Pantera or Panthera that your referring to. Obviously if a woman gave birth to a child before she got married there would be rumours floating about. Especially if, later on, this child claimed to be God. Jesus' opposition would most likely deny the virgin birth and possibly even make up stories to discredit it. That or it was just an early rumour. Its pretty obvious there would be some floating around if an unmarried girl got pregnant and claimed she never had sex. If your own daughter got pregnat would you believe her if she said she was still a virgin?

"""I don't think most people would immediately think of virgin births if a child's sire was suspect.
More likely, a word beginning with b would spring to mind, far more readily.""""

My point was that the new testament clearly speaks of a virgin birth. Those verses indirectly confirm it. They are in the same area of scripture and they seem to have an unusual syntax when compared to the previous verses. read the text and you will see what I mean. Not just that verse but the entire geneology verses. The word may be disputed in the ot as to whether she was a virgin or not but the bible as a whole clearly states mary was a virgin and the child was conceived by the Holy Spirit.


"""""So nobody had sex with Mary,"""""
Thats correct until Jesus was born. Later Joseph had "union" with her. Jesus had a brother named James. He may have had more brothers and a sister or sisters. I just don't remember.


""""and God created some magic sperm that he fertilized her egg with?""""""

Who ever said he even needed sperm?

"""Hmm, sounds like a bunch of hooey to me.""""

Me too if my next door neighbor claimed to be able to do this. But not if a being who created the entire physical universe is said to have done this. God crated all the matter and the stuff that composes it. God has to be smart to create all this. Just look at the complexity of dna. Its ridiculous. God transcends space and time. Miracles are not impossible. For limited 4 dimensional beings like ourselves, on our own, they are impossible. But God is not a limited 4 dimensional being. He is the creator. He made everything. He made the laws of physics. They are his laws. Its absurd to think he couldn't cause someone to be pregnant without her having sex when he created the entire physical universe.

"""""Nature just doesn't work that way.""""""

What about the one who designed nature? Think of the world as legos and God as the builder. God can rearrange them as he sees fit. He isn't subjected to the same spiritual and physical limitations that we are. We are legos or should I say clay?

"""It sounds too much like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy to me.""""

What really sounds like santa claus of the easter bunny is the claim that life originated by chance. Way to many factors need to be just right for life to exsist. The mass ratio of a proton to an electron. The distance the earth is from the sun. The strong nuclear force constant. The amount of energy in the early universe. The earths magnetic field. The earths ozone layer. The earths rotation and tilt. The composition of ou atmosphere. The type of stars that can form. The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on....ad infinitum!

""""A pretty myth, with some good lessons and moral stories, but not to be taken literal."""""

I'm sorry, that is incorrect. Its a truthful piece of history that shows us how God interacted and saved his creation (us) from their fall.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

[This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited December 15, 1999).]

Vinnie,

Amen to that brother!

Jesus Is Lord,
ISDAMan

Lori-So Jesus changed the law of God? Now hold on a minute. That would imply that God's original law was imperfect, something that theologically should not be. The Old Testament is supposed to be handed down directly from God. Oy vey!

Oxygen,

Before Jesus, man was under the law... and boy could it ever be tough to live up to. God's standards are not low. The completed work of Jesus on the cross ushered man into the era of God's grace. The bill for the law had been eternally paid. Changed is accurate, though, it does not speak of the complete aspect of what happened. Does that help?

Jesus Is Lord,
ISDAMan

Lori,


What I need to know is what does "suffer to live" mean? Does that specifically mean to kill? Probably not. Also, I'd need to know whether it's Old or New Test. The rules changed when Jesus came.

It's in the Old Testament, Exodus 22:18, to be exact. The next verse talks about putting to death those who have sex with animals. The verse after that requires utter destruction of those who sacrifice to any gods, save the Lord (of course). Quite heartwarming, don't you think?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Oxygen: The old testement was not handed down straight from god. The old testement was written by men, and sections of the books of Moses (the first five books of the old testement, also called the torah) were dictated to Moses by god.

What you must remember is that the old testement was written byt stone age people. The laws of moses were for stone age people. As society evolved, gods presentation to us became (and is still becoming) more and more advanced. If god had told the caananites to turn the other cheek, they would have been brutally slaughtered.

As the Bible points out, Jesus was doubted, questioned, mocked, taunted, ridiculed, tortured and belittled by many during his lifetime. The "proud ones" looked for every reason to question, mock, taunt and ridicule Jesus. Was His virgin birth questioned at the time?

Remember all the babies whose lives were endangered and those who were massacred in an effort to kill the baby Jesus? The powers that "were" living at the time knew the truth and they feared Him.

Joseph was a devout observer of the Mosaic law and he wished to break his betrothal with Mary... He decided to divorce her quietly when he suspected that she had broken the law...

"Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord (O.T. common designation of God) apppeared to him in a dream and said, 'Joseph, son of Daviid, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.' All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

'Behold, the virgin shall be with child
and bear a son, and they shall name
him Emmanuel,

which means 'God is with us.' When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord (God) had commanded him and took his wife into his home." (Matthew 1:20-24)

God also told Joseph to take the baby Jesus and Mary to Egypt to avoid Herod's massacre. Joseph did and Jesus lived!

Thank You God!!! Praise Jesus!!!


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 16, 1999).]

No, I don't find it heart-warming, which I guess comes as a surprise to you? That's strange but, ok? Before Jesus came, sin had to be atoned for in an entirely different way than after He came and died for us. Before that happened, there was no forgiveness in Jesus' name, or through repentence. Other things had to be done to atone. This question made me think. You know witches can be very dangerous if they choose to be. I wanted to ask SkyeBlue what would happen to her spiritually if she (or anyone) decided to use their witchcraft for evil?

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Lori,

Have you heard of the Wiccan Rede, or what you might think of as the "Golden Rule" of Witches?

"Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill;
An' it harm none, do what ye will."

The Wiccan Rede acknowledges the right of all people to choose their own paths, as long as their choices do not bring injury to another.

Witches also live by the "Threefold Law of Return" or "Threefold Law of Karma", which is actually more of an ethic than a law. It basically says that an action, whether good or bad, is not returned in equal measure but magnified three times.

This is a quote taken from the Witches Web:


Our actions affect us in the following 3-fold manner:

a) Energy goes through us as we manifest it. We suffer or benefit according to its nature. If an energy is intended to harm another then it harms us as we manifest it.

b) Our actions affect others directly, and to the extent that we are one with all so do we suffer again if our intent was harm.

c) Our deep mind compensates us for our harmfulness and our beneficence. If we see that we harm, we punish ourselves; if we see that we help/heal, then we reward ourselves (more carefully and thoroughly than any jailer).

You can read more about it at:

http://www.witchesweb.com/philosophy.html

When you think about it, Witches have more reason to do good than Christians do! Witches aren't "forgiven" - they have to pay for their own "sins"! They can't even blame the "devil" for what they do - they don't even believe in him!



------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Lori -

Searcher is correct. A witch that does evil isn't really a true witch, just the same as a murderous Christian isn't a true Christian.

Somewhere there's a good vs. evil post that talks about the descruction that would happen if good & evil were reversed. A witch that practices evil will bring destruction upon his/her self eventually. That's why all the books I have been reading caution the reader over and over to meditate upon the possible outcome of a spell to make sure that nothing ill will come of it before proceeding. It's for our own good that we practice 'good' magick.

I personally can't handle the thought of using witchcraft to harm another. It's just not who I am. I can't even squish a big nasty spider without getting a guilt trip. I will be treating witchcraft with the utmost respect. It's like fire, it's a tool that is very helpful when treated with caution, but inattention and sloppiness can cause disaster.

I might ask you a similar question - what about those Christians that turn to Satan worship? There is the potential for evil everywhere, not just in the Pagan framework.

Hello Skye,

Speaking of casting spells, I believe you indicated that you would like to do that. If so, can you give some examples of the types of spells you think you would like to cast and why?

Corp Hudson,

your quote:
-What you must remember is that the old testament was written by stone age people. The laws of moses were for stone age people.-

Come on Corp, can't you do better than that?
WHAT stone age people, neanderthals?
I didn't know neanderthals could make golden calves.

True' -

Sure, I don't mind sharing at all. Keep in mind a spell is a witches equivalent to a prayer, too.

I plan on casting my first spell this month. It is going to be a request for wisdom and knowledge. I am going to ask that my eyes be open, and that knowledge will come to me.

There are lots of other spells I have in mind that I'd LIKE to cast, but since a lot of them involve others, I need to ask their permission first.

My father is battling alcholism, and my grandmother and my hubby's grandfather are both dying. I'd like to cast a strength spell for my father to help him fight his war, and I'd also like to give him some kind of reassurance that his mother isn't going AWAY, she's just returning to the source, so to speak. (My father is not religious, and is having a real hard time dealing with his mom's declining health) Grandma seems to be handeling it okay, she's not coherent most of the time, but when she is she says she's rather looking forward to meeting God.

My husband's grandfather has cancer, and is in pain that medication can't help. I'd like to get him to do some visualization-type spells with me to see if I can't help him ignore the pain, or move it outside of him and at least make it a little easier to bear.

I don't know if I have the skills to do any of this yet, but I feel like I should at least try. Assuming they give me permission, of course. The hard part is asking for permission without causing a hue and cry about my studying the Craft. I haven't told my parents yet, and I'm not quite sure they'll understand, at least at first. I think eventually they'll understand that I'm at least using it for good, which hopefully will reassure them, but I'm nervous about that first conversation. I do have to tell them, though, I'm terrible at keeping secrets, especially secrets that have a big impact on me. I think for my dad, if I enchant a stone for him and tell him it's a power-charm, he'll keep it with him and maybe try to tap into it when he needs a boost. He's a very spiritual person, but he doesn't believe in God. (Just like I used to be!) That way, I don't have to ask permission, I can just present a tool to him and it's up to him to use it or not, as he chooses.

Skye,

Thanks for the reply. I am interested in how all of this is going to work out for you and I respect your good intentions.

I am already experiencing some conflicting thoughts, though, based on some of the beliefs which you have expressed about "karma" and "casting spells"...

One of the conflicts I see, is this:

As I understand it, you believe in a natural karma. What goes around comes around and that noone can be forgiven - that they must experience the "bad" karma, (three-fold), for what they have done wrong.

Yet, SUPPOSE (and I'm NOT saying this IS the case, but) just SUPPOSE the painful experiences which your relatives are now going through is part of their natural karma? If you cast a spell, say, to "remove" their pain or to "move" their pain outside of their body would you not, in essence, be interfering with the natural law of karma? (By the way, WHERE would the punishing karma then go?)

God has THE BEST of intentions too and has ALL the knowledge. Jesus was sent to us by God, suffered and "died on the cross so that sins would be forgiven. So that we would be saved." If the laws of karma are true, and if that is what your relatives were meant to suffer in this world, might you not then be "casting a spell so that their wrong-doing would be forgiven? So that they would be saved from the bad karma?" Would you not, in essence, be acting as Jesus/God yourself???

Please believe me, I mean no offense and I am not criticizing. Of course, I am sure that I have much less knowledge than you about this subject and that is why I am asking. I do see some conflicts brewing and I am wondering if you have thought about it in this way?

True'-

I understand where you're coming from. I can tell you're not just attacking me (which I appreciate!), I do enjoy a good debate, and that's a great question. Now let's see if I can speak clearly enough to answer it! :)

As far as acting as Jesus/God myself, well I don't think Jesus was anything but a mortal, so that part's irrelevant (to me). As far as acting as God, well, I believe we are all made up of the same stuff - be it a God, a plant, a person, whatever. God and Goddess are both interwoven into everything, and are really just the embodiment of the two polar opposites (male and female) of an even greater power, the "life force" or the "All". So, in essence, when I do something as mundane as picking up a pencil I am acting as a part of that force, I can't help it, it's part of me, it's part of all of us.

If they are meant to suffer as part of their own personal karma, then perhaps my spell wouldn't work. I HAVE thought about that, if I would be interfering with karma, but I have come to the conclusion that I don't think any spell I would cast would be strong enough to get in karma's way. Perhaps my spell WOULD work, but then somehthing else would happen to create the balance needed. That's really what karma is about, a huge cosmic balancing act.

That's part of the reason it's so darn important to ask permission first. I would be meddling with their future, and that's not something I care to do without their 'okay'. In other words, casting a spell could be risky, so I feel it's only fair to ask the target of the spell if they wish to take that risk, it's not for me to decide to impose the risk upon them.

I don't think ALL suffering is part of karma, though. Nor do I think all joy is. Just some of it, sometimes, as it is needed. There is a lot of natural joy and pain in the world that isn't related to karma, know what I mean? It's really hard for me to explain what I'm trying to say - I am still kind of new to this whole thing. :)

ISDAMan- If the bill has been eternally paid, what do we have to worry about then? The tip? ;)

Oxygen,

Ha! That's funny. :) I've not come across that one before. Let me refer to an old post so that you might better understand the meaning. Perhaps, then, you might consider accepting the gift of His payment. I can only Hope. :)
<HR>Old Post To Viki<HR>
<FONT SIZE="5">o</FONT>ne of the reasons that God put so much prophecy in the Bible is for confirmation of His truth and His truth yet to be revealed. The New and Old Testament tie together without flaw. The wrath of the Old Testament. is from the same God as the Salvation of the New Testament. There is no other God. It might also surprise you to know that the Old Testament was peppered with revelation of the Lord Jesus. All this belongs to God. Weather you like it or not, we are not on His level. He can do with us as He chooses. Like Mama always said, "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" Thankfully, He chooses to give us a choice. As we all know choices have consequences!!! I will try to make all this plain.</P>

God is a God of eternal <FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="5">Perfection</FONT></FONT></P>

The only thing God can't do is SIN. To loose His perfection would cause Him to cease being God. God is forever. That can't happen. His plan is never wrong. He knows all things. Thankfully, nowhere in the Bible does he say that we have to agree with Him in order for Him to be our God. His perfection is without condition.</P>

God is a <FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="5">Just</FONT></FONT> God</P>

If I admittedly murdered your mother, and was taken to stand before a judge, then simply told not to do that kind of thing again and then sent home, would that be justice? NO WAY!!! However, being in sin, as humans, our view of sin is far too tempered. We think in terms of <FONT SIZE="5">BIG LIES</FONT> and<FONT COLOR="AQUA"> </FONT><SUB><FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="SILVER">little white lies</FONT></FONT></SUB>. Jesus said to Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself and no sin would be committed. He put all sins on the same level. The Bible makes it clear that all sins are against God. Going back to the murder example, wouldn't you expect there to be payment for the murder of your mother? YES! How much less do you think God would demand payment? God says that the wages if SIN is DEATH. God defines death as not being in fellowship with Him. The completion of death being Hell; the only place you wont find God in all that exists. Furthermore, God says that ALL HAVE SINNED and fallen short of the glory of God. Justice is fine when it's in you favor. What about when you're the one on the business end of justice? No man can stand against the judgement he's brought against himself. But, wait, isn't there a conflict? What about that Love aspect? Everyone knows, or should, that a truly loving parent will at sometime need to spank a child's bottom to teach the lessons of boundaries and consequences Death, however, seems to be a bit extreme. Right? Consider this. We each only have one chance to live in the flesh before we enter into eternity. You WILL spend it somewhere. The choice is yours. Again, where there is choice, there is consequence. If you spend a lifetime of ignoring, only giving a passing glance to, thumbing your nose at, or falsely relating to God it all translates into one thing. Before I tell you what that is, hear this. God said that if you are not for Him then you are against Him. Jesus went on to say that no man comes to the Father except by Me. He also recounted that He is the door and you must enter by the door because anyone entering by the window is a thief. God only provides one plan of salvation!!!! Now, to tell you what you've been waiting for, it all translates into,"God, leave me alone. I can do it all myself. I don't need you." Being cast into Hell isn't cruel. It's when God finally says," Fine! have it your way!" You see, if you live you life in separation from God, then, you are spiritually dead already. Once you physically die, you get to have that eternal death you've been gunning for so long. Remember, you have to spend eternity somewhere and God is the only good in all eternity. Therefore, if you cling to, that is to sew, evil in this life, you will live in, reap, the fruits of your labor which is DEATH. Trusting that His Son is the only way to be saved and that He will save you if you ask and believe and if you turn from you sinful ways and turn to Christ, then you will be saved. Notice, there is nothing said about doing any good works, paying any pinnace, saying any pre-prescribed prayer, or living in perfection. God knows that you're only human. It is by Faith in Jesus alone that men are saved. Still, isn't there a conflict here? Isn't this just like being sent home from court a happy and freed murderer? Let's find out what Love has to say about this.</P>

God is a God of eternal <FONT SIZE="5"><FONT COLOR="RED">Love</FONT></FONT></P>

Like His Perfection, His love is without condition. It's common among men for one to stop loving the other because the other has become mean or acted in a evil way. One thing we often overlook is that God's Love is Perfect and His Perfection is Love. He can no more stop being perfect than He can stop being Love. God makes some bold claims about Love, real love that is. Among other things, God says that Love is long suffering. Ever wonder why He doesn't give everyone what they deserve right now? If He did, most of the world would go straight to HELL. He's still giving you a chance to give your life over to Him. God says that Love is quick to forget transgressions. He even promises to take your sins and place them as far away from you as the east is from the west when you trust in His plan of salvation. God says that Love is not self serving. God did something incredible!!!!! It's hard to comprehend. All I can say is that God is not limited by the same physical laws that man is. Ya see, when God sent Jesus through the virgin Mary, He impregnated her with Himself. He never stopped being God. He was still everywhere. He just, in a way, extended Himself. he came and He served us. Imagine that. The God who created us came and served us. How could this happen? Love is the answer? Let's look back at that murder trial again. This time, there's a twist. A conviction is certain. The murderer is your son. The victim is irrelevant. A conviction would mean DEATH for your son. This child that you felt growing inside of you,... this child you love so much,... will become a victim of his own sin. Do you know that God created us and Loves each and every last one of us dearly? Think of the agony!!!! God, being a Just God, could not abandon Justice! God, being a God of Love, could not abandon the Love He bared for His Creation! Can you see the conflict here? SIN MUST be punished. While, at the same time, His Love wants to set FREE the condemned! Someone must pay!!! Therefore, He sent, of Himself, a Savior to bare the burden of all men on the Cross. It was a FREE Gift that no man could earn. God covered the debt of SIN once and for all. There's just one thing. Man is hung up on doing it himself. He will forsake a FREE gift because it looks too easy. I'll leave you with one last example. If I meet you in a park and I tell you that I have a Free gift for you. I set it down on the bench you're sitting on in front of you and I walk away to continue my gift giving. If you never take hold of the package and open it,... if you just stand up, walk away, and go on with your life, is the gift yours?</P>

NO!</P>

If you examine the package,... if you look inside to see what it is and never take it with you, is it yours?</P>

NO!</P>

How have you treated the FREE Gift of Salvation that God has given you?</P>

He gives His gift to all. Everyone's sin is the same. It's covered by the Blood of Jesus Christ, the Living Word, the Son of God!</P>
<HR><HR>

Jesus Can You Brand New,
ISDAMan

Great post. Quite a bit of thought, especially with the idea of a hypothetical child of my own on Death Row. I have a good friend on Death Row. I knew him through my brother and even considered him a brother. We all freaked out when we heard about his arrest. This man was the epitomy of gentle. He'd give me rides home from work when I didn't have a car. He was genuinely hurt when one of my mother's dogs refused to be friendly towards him (although he never gave up trying). He's now at San Quentin while his lawyer tries to get him life in a mental institution. His trial was one of the most painful things I ever had to go through, especially having to hear the prosecution depict him as evil incarnate. I never wanted to kill anybody more than when the prosecutor finished painting this ugly picture, but I know he was just doing his job. Dave was just another case in his career. All I could do was reach towards Dave as they led him out of the courtroom in chains.

Dave was not a bad person. He was one of the kindest, gentlest people I have ever known. What happened to him the night of the crime was the culmination of keeping his feelings pent up inside him over the years. When it exploded, it did so tragically for four families; mine, his, and the families of his two victims.

I am not a religious person, but maybe you can give me something to fill a void, a void which screams every time I hear of another violent, meaningless crime. If there is a god, why would he lay such a heavy burden on Dave's shoulders? Why would one girl die so violently while her best friend is left in the wreckage, alive and horribly scarred forevermore? What did I do to have to see these lives (and I knew them all) shatter so hopelessly beyond repair, agonizing over the nights and days because I didn't see it coming although I studied psychology so deeply? Why did my parents and brothers have to see someone who we considered one of our own hauled off in shackles like a wild animal? What did the girls' parents do to lose their children in such a manner?

I have needed an answer to this for some years now, and the generic "we musn't question God" or "it was His will" just doesn't feed the bulldogs anymore. If one of yours was found murdered, you'd at least want to know why.

I was effectively 'murdered' too, for my life changed forever that night when we found the answer to our question, "Where's Dave been for the past couple of days?"

Oxygen,
To help you out here I'm going to give you a series of relevant old posts before I expound upon the matter. Don't worry. They tie to what you have asked me. This is because they present some truth that you should be aware of from the start. Also, you should really read the posts under "I belive". There's more than what I have given you here.

<HR>Vicki's response to the post I last gave you.<HR>
Dear Isdaman:

I have to admit that a God, who you claim is all perfection and love, but yet would cast me into hell for an eternity of suffering, scares me. How can this be so? This makes no sense! I know that he has given all of us free will, and all of our choices have consequences (my consequences tend to be instaneous, like John Lennon's song, Instant Karma), but why would he cast a lost, but relatively benign, soul like me into eternal damnation and hell fire because I am slow learner about certain things (like Love)? If I were to die right now, according to you (and the Bible!??!) I would be going to hell, forever and ever. How could your God do this to me just because I ask questions, and don't adhere to your form of religious thought, though I do believe in what Jesus taught. I guess I'll go to hell, at least I'll be in good company: all Buddists, Jews, Hindus, and so on and so on.

I truly respect your views and opinions, but please try to open your mind up to different things.

Remember what Jesus said, Those who cast the first stone ..... Maybe those who pass such harsh judgments on others human beings will be the first ones in hell, who knows, no one really knows you know.

Peace and Love,
Vicki
<HR>My return response to her.<HR>
Dear Vicki,

Scare you, it should! It's a terrifying thought. How could He? Why forever? Why not just for a week or two or some determined length of time as according to our sins?

Let me start by saying that you have made two grave devaluations. The first being your relationship, as an issue of being, as relating to the almighty God. I flatly deny that you are a, "relatively benign being"! You have free will. You have the knowledge of good and evil. Most of all, you, personally, were made in the image of God for the purpose of fellowship with God. That makes you Special!!!! Part of being in the image of God is that you are immortal. You are a spiritual being that is, just for a time, in this physical world, in this physical flesh, in this thing where there is time. Time is a creation of God. outside of this physical realm that we live in, there is no such thing as time. There simply is forever. I know, it defies the laws of physics. Physical laws are for the physical realm That's where they stop.

Let me show you something.

Hell was not created for man

To be quick about this, Satan and a third part of the angles in Heaven rebelled against God. Satan's hope was to overthrow God and to be God. Because they lived daily in the very presence of God, unlike man, they were cast down to the earth and their punishment was made to be very much in order with their sin. This punishment being Hell ( I'm also speaking about the lake of fire ), is where they will be cast into.

O.k., I'll bet you can see that one just fine. Where do humans come into this mix? Why wouldn't God create a different punishment place for us if we have to be punished? Why Hell? Why forever? Why not just for a week or two or some determined length of time as according to our sins?

Be fore I answer these questions, Let's look at that second point of devaluation. That point being your devaluation of the nature of God and the nature of sin. God is perfect. We know this. If you have a glass of pure water and add to it just one H2SO4 molecule, is it still a glass of pure water? Obviously not. In the same way that the glass of water cannot interact with the H2SO4 molecule and still remain pure, God cannot interact with sin and still remain pure. If you are of sin, which all men are, you are like H2SO4 to God. Somewhere there's got to be a barrier. Only, the barrier must also be constructed of water or the glass of water is still not pure. With water, this is impossible. Praise God that with Him, nothing is impossible! Through the self sacrifice of the shedding of His own Blood, seeing how He came to us in the form of a man, there is a barrier that when you trust in Him, that is to say when you are immersed in Him, your sins, the very H2SO4 of your being is covered. His Blood covers those that trust in His Savior. He will see His Son when He looks at you on your day of judgement and will therefore judge you as to what rewards you will share in Christ with. If you choose to live in sin, you die in sin. After which, you will be relegated to the heap of those that chose to be discarded in sin before you. Before the first human sinner could ever enter Hell, there was first a place set aside for the first sinner. That sinner, Satan, was the father of sin. Remember, if you are not for God, as He defines what is for Him, then, you are against God. Sin is all that is contrary to God. Hell is that pile of sin set forth for Satan. If you follow any way contrary to God, no matter how wonderful the package may look on the outside, you place yourself neatly on the top of that pile.

Now, to answer those questions. If you recall, I said that outside of this physical realm, there is no time. Once you are where you're going, you are there. It's too late when you're locked down on death row to think that you can be good enough to work you way out. Hell is a great big refuse pile. That answerers the, "Why forever?", question. As far as, "Why Hell and not someplace different?", goes, I think that has been taken care of within these past two posts. All sin is the same in the eyes of God. He started a pile for sin. He does not need a new one. Surprise Surprise!!! God does recognize that some have done more sins than others. This goes to that,"Why not just for a week or two or some determined length of time as according to our sins?", question. God make it known that of whom is given much, much is expected. He shows in His word that the people that will have the most sufferings in Hell will be those that had the most contact with, the most revelation of, the most interaction with His Word and still chose not to trust His Savior. There is no time there. There is, however, an amount of suffering that can be awarded to a man, or even a devil, I'm sure, because of his deeds and his knowledge of the orientation of those deeds to God.

God condemns no one to Hell

In all that exists outside of this physical realm, God is there. The only exception is that place He made for Satan and the angels that decided to go with him. There comes a point where everyone must stand in the presence of the almighty God and be judged. All those who don't have an attorney ( Jesus ), stand to answer, point by point, for a lifetime of sin against God. If, while you are given the chance to choose ( while on Earth ), you choose not to go God's way, not to prepare for the trial to come, but go where and do what you think will be o.k. or with what looks and feels good to the flesh, then you choose Hell of your own free will. When you stand in the presence of God. If he asks you, "Vicki, why should I let YOU into MY Heaven?", what answers do you think He will accept? "God, I've been a really good person. I didn't do drugs. I never killed anyone. I learned from most of my mistakes." -- and on and on and on. The Bible says that all of a man's good deeds are as filthy rags. Where is there a man who can say that his good deeds can amount to the good deeds of Jesus Christ? That's the standard. God says that if you trust in His Son, when He sees you in the court room, He will see the Blood of His Son and accept you like you are His sinless Son. God says that those who trust in Christ are joint heirs with Christ in Heaven. We share in His riches. God also says that if you are not for me, you are against me. You are either working or not working, live or dead, on the right or on the left. The time to choose is now. What defense are you going to have in that day? It's too late to stand in the court on the day of the trial and say, "I'll do it the way I was supposed to from the start." It's too late to stand in the court on the day of the trial and say, "I need an attorney ( Jesus )", when you knew long ago that this day of judgement would come. We have a saying that a man who is his own attorney has a fool for a client.

I understand you possibly being upset with me, regarding your final statement in your last post. However, I'm merely reporting the Good News. I didn't make it. Jesus was a lot more direct and cutting to the point than I could ever be. The judgement is not mine. It's Gods. As He gives His children freedom in His truth and the power that comes with it, He expects it to be spoken BOLDLY. God's Word is sharper than any two edged sword. That means that anyone on the receiving end is going to get cut. I'm thankful that it has cut me and that it still cuts me today.

With Love from someone that is actively praying that you entrust your
life to God's Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

P.S. - Jesus also taught that those that trust in Him are counted
amount the circumcised. The circumcised, of course, being the Jew.


<HR>Last old post<HR>
JMitch,
You have a choice as weather or not to take another breath. You can do it or you can drown in the tub or do any number of things. None of these things was given so you could kill yourself. Yet, by your own choice, you can. Even more, you only have access to the things God first provided you. You can create no new matter with which to halt your next breath.

This exixtance belongs to God. The interaction He allows us to have through our own choices is often confused for power. For Satan, it is the same.

Does that help? I hope so.
<HR><HR><HR><HR>

Well, I think that establishes a really good baseline. I'll tell you know that when the fun is being had and the pleasures are high man is quick to say, "I did that!" Conversely, when the times are tough and the pleasure of sin, which the Bible says are real but will only last a short time, fade away, man is quick to blame and ask, "How could God allow this?!?" To be frank, however good your friend was, he was not as good as Jesus Christ and could not be. That's the standard. There were choices made on that fateful day right down to the very last second. I don't know the situation. I don't know the history prior. What I can tell you is that the Bible says that pride comes before the fall. Perhaps he spent a lifetime of choosing not to be prideful and forgive and forget the transgressions of others to only choose to assert himself this once. Pride can quickly lead to wrath and other bad decisions. This is why God tells us to focus on His ways and not our own. There are ways that seem right to a man that lead to death the Bible says. God doesn't want the focus because He's arrogant. God is the ultimate beacon of truth and enlightenment. He wants our focus on Him for our own good. Did your friend do anything different than any other man (including Christians)? No, he did not. Is your friend a monster? No, he is not. The sad thing is that dealing in any sin at all is like spinning the wheel of regret. Sometimes, you land on seem like you're getting away Scott Free (until God's judgement). Sometimes, you land on false admiration of those around you. Sometimes, you land on forgiveness of the one you sinned against. While, sometimes, you land on 100% consequences. Keep in mind that all of these were consequences that bare their own burden. The one you friend got is the better of them all. Two of the others will and one can blind you to your need for a Savior. Where as the latter will leave a man broken an in a position where choosing to go God's way can be seen as the only alternative to the fruitlessness of his own actions. A man playing football that twists his ankle is likely to resist a trip to the hospital. Yet, the same man, if he finds his foot twisted 80 degrees from normal and his toes pointing toward his head, will have little objection to that same trip. You asked, "If there is a god, why would he lay such a heavy burden on Dave's shoulders?" I say, "It is no burden God has placed upon his shoulders. That was the place of the choice to sin. Rather, He has opened to him an opportunity of Love!" God promises that the burden that He places upon His children is never heavy. I have no doubt in my mind that Dave has been and continues to this day to be offered the Gift of God. God calls the weak, the burdened, and those with heavy hearts because they are finally ready to set aside their own pride and listen. He does not just go around causing these horrible acts and then try to capitalize on them in some snake-like way. Consider 2 Peter 3:8-9<FONT COLOR="BLUE"> But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.</FONT> and John 3:16-21<FONT COLOR="BLUE">For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.</FONT> When we sin, we want God's love and mercy. When we are sinned against, we want God's justice. We don't ever seem to look at them in the opposite way. I can tell that you for care for the others involved. You're not just some reprobate looser on a rampage against all authority. I feel for you and understand your anguish and confusion over this matter. Why doesn't God just step in and make it all right when people start down the path of these wrong choices? How come some people can get away with anything and Dave is now a broken man because one act of indiscretion? There's a good reason for that. For the first, I ask, "Who will set the standard?" If you want God to step in and make things all right, you are asking for His perfect judgement. Remember, If He gave us what we all deserved right now, Hell would get the biggest rush of newcomers it's ever seen. Secondly, God is long suffering with all men and on a individual basis. Don't anguish yourself with the seemingly Scott Free getaway of others. we just read in 2 Peter that God does not slack off in His promises. That includes His promises to deal with sinners that do not repent of their sins and turn their lives over to Christ, His Son, our Savior. Remember, He's got a whole eternity to meet out rewards and punishments. We just read that a day might as well be a thousand years to God. Trust Him! He WILL hand out justice! He DOES have a plan for your Salvation!

You asked, "Why would one girl die so violently while her best friend is left in the wreckage, alive and horribly scarred forevermore? What did I do to have to see these lives (and I knew them all) shatter so hopelessly beyond repair, agonizing over the nights and days because I didn't see it coming although I studied psychology so deeply? Why did my parents and brothers have to see someone who we considered one of our own hauled off in shackles like a wild animal? What did the girls' parents do to lose their children in such a manner?" I ask. Why does a perfect and almighty God have to suffer the indignity of watching, first hand and with His own eyes, His very creation in His own image writhe in agony over the plague of sin? Why does a perfect and almighty God have to suffer the indignity of watching, first hand and with His own eyes, His very creation in His own image cling to sin and destroy one another with no regard for the Love of God or man? Why does a perfect and almighty God have to suffer the indignity of watching, first hand and with His own eyes, His very creation in His own image shun Him as He reaches out to them with tender Loving open arms? Why does a perfect and almighty God have to suffer the indignity of watching, first hand and with His own eyes, His very creation in His own image slaughter His only begotten Son and effectively turn His back on Himself for the sight of it? God hurts too!!!!!! have you not read the pain in His voice when He said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"? God grieves too. His emotion is greater for us than we could ever know. He did not make us as robots. He gave us free will. He wants us to love Him of our own volition. He is the good Father that craves a relationship with His children. For love, a father will put up with much from an unruly child. How much more will God the Father?

I hope I've helped you. I will be glad to answer any questions you might have. You might not believe this but, I really do care for you. I'd like to know that you will be eternally safe from Satan's curse of damnation. Only you can make the choice to accept the Free Gift of Jesus paying the price for your sins. Declaring to God that you would turn away from your sin and trust in Christ to bring you into a right relationship with God is the only way to be saved. The baptism is symbolic of your sins being washed away and being raised up new as Christ rose from the dead as well as a sign of obedience. Trying to clean up you act first is irrelevant. There will never be a more opportune moment than the here and now that you know you have and are alive for. I would even pray with you if you'd like. The only catch is that you have to mean it for it to be true. There's a whole world of Love that God want's to open up to you.

Jesus is softly and tenderly calling,
Calling, Oh sinner, Come Home
Come Home, Come Home
Ye who are weary Come Home
ISDAMan

P.S.-You can tell Dave that I'm available if he would like a pen pal.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpts Are from The Complete Multimedia Bible King James Version
Copyright (c) 1994 Compton's NewMedia, Inc.

Oxygen,

Thanks for sharing that life experience. I know that it was addressed to ISDMan, however, if you don't mind, there is something that I would like to share with you. Without going into detail, my life and the lives of others have been affected by the horrific acts of others who have also come under the power of Satan at times. I truly feel for you and believe that I understand your pain.

What I would like to share with you is this... If we allow evil acts, even those committed by others, to grab hold of us in a way that causes us to turn against God, we are no better off than your friend was at the time that he committed the murder.

I can assure you, Oxygen, without a shred of doubt... If, when the murderous urges took hold, Dave had instead fallen to his knees and cried out with all of his heart, "Jesus, please, help me!!!"... Dave would have been filled with the peace and love of Jesus Christ and Dave would not have done what he did. You see, as ISDMan pointed out, if we are not for God, at any time, then we are against God (and with Satan). Satan is very deceitful and diablolical and more powerful than we are when we are without Jesus. If we do not recognize this and if we allow him to maintain control of us in this strange way, if we do not learn from these evil acts that we must be with Jesus Christ in order to be saved, then Satan has won us as one of his eternal prizes. Satan can be powerful, if we let him. However, he is no match for us when we have Christ in our hearts.

Think of how much you care for your friend. You know Dave better than the prosecutor, you love him for the person that he CAN be, the person that you believe he truly IS, not the person he was when he chose to commit his Satanic act. However fleetingly, by doing what he did, Dave turned his back on those who love him... he turned his back on his family, he turned his back on you, he turned his back on your family, he turned his back on Jesus and God. That is why he cannot be with his family, that is why he cannot be with you or with your family. However, despite what he has done, Dave can still dwell on this earth with Jesus and Dave can still dwell in eternity with God.

How can that be? As much as you love Dave, he has been condemned on this earth, and he cannot walk with you. However, as much as you love Dave, God loves Dave even more. God loves Dave so much that He will still accept Dave into his eternal kingdom if, as ISDMan puts it, Dave shows up with Jesus. Yes!!! Oxygen. Dave, the one who perpetrated such evil upon other human beings while under Satan's power on this earth is still loved by not only you, who can do nothing to save him, but Dave is also loved by the one who loves all of us the most. Dave is loved by God!!! And Dave can be saved through the love and power of the Savior, Jesus Christ!!! That is exactly why God came to us in the flesh of Jesus Christ, that is exactly why Christ died on the cross and why He rose from the dead... so that Dave and ALL sinners could be forgiven!!! That is the gift of our lives!!!

Despite what Dave has done, if Dave truly repents, truly rejects Satan, truly opens his heart to Jesus and walks for the rest of his life with Jesus Christ on this earth then, on the day of God's judgement (not man's), Dave will be given everlasting life and walk in the Holy Spirit with God for all eternity!!!

The same is true for the rest of us, Oxygen. Even if we do not commit such horrible acts, we are all sinners and we are all loved by God. The important question is... Do we love God??? If we allow the evil which was perpetrated by ourselves or others to cause us to continue to turn our backs on God, to cause us to deny God and to go before God without Jesus on our judgement day, although we might not have been condemned while here on this temporary earth which is Satan's playground, through our own free-will we will have condemned ourselves for all eternity. However, if we walk in this life with Jesus, we can reject Satan, we can detest sin, we can handle any earthly burden... their is NOTHING that we can't handle when we have Jesus Christ in our lives.

Right now, it is not too late for Dave, Oxygen. It is not too late for you, it is not too late for any of us. ALL things can be forgiven. By recognizing and accepting Jesus Christ into our lives, all good things will come... the things that matter... those which are eternal and with God.

God Bless, Oxygen.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 20, 1999).]

Oxygen,

As usual, truestory has spoken the truth. I was just reminded of something by someone on the radio. The passage is Jeremiah 29:11-14 <FONT COLOR="BLUE">For I know the plans I have for you," says the LORD. "They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope. In those days when you pray, I will listen. If you look for me in earnest, you will find me when you seek me. I will be found by you," says the LORD. "I will end your captivity and restore your fortunes. I will gather you out of the nations where I sent you and bring you home again to your own land."</FONT> Likewise, you should read Joel 2:12-13 <FONT COLOR="BLUE">That is why the LORD says, "Turn to me now, while there is time! Give me your hearts. Come with fasting, weeping, and mourning. Don't tear your clothing in your grief; instead, tear your hearts." Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and merciful. He is not easily angered. He is filled with kindness and is eager not to punish you.</FONT>

Jesus Is The Real Power,
ISDAMan

Excerpts are of the New Living Translation Holy Bible, New Living Translation, copyright © 1996 Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois 60189. All rights reserved.

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 20, 1999).]

truestory & ISDAMan-Thank you both. I do feel more at peace with the situation now. The other night I found an old letter from Dave, addressed to my brother. In his letter he asks forgiveness from my family because of what we were put through (he saw my mother break down in tears on the stand). He said that he did not feel worthy to ask forgiveness from the families of his victims. He also said that it doesn't matter whether or not the death sentence is sustained. He knows he has but one other "judge" to face, God, and he is confident that this Judge will render a fair decision, to determine if he was truly an evil person or if he was a good man who just snapped under the weight of it all. He is in no fear of his soul because he knows his fate is in the best hands possible...His.

Again, thank you both. You have stilled the troubled waters. :)

ISDAMan,

This passage just stod out and I have a question.


All those who don't have an attorney ( Jesus ), stand to answer, point by point, for a lifetime of sin against God. If, while you are given the chance to choose ( while on Earth ), you choose not to go God's way, not to prepare for the trial to come, but go where and do what you think will be o.k. or with what looks and feels good to the flesh, then you choose Hell of your own free will.
What is the need for for preperation? Why were we created here on earth to live and prepare for a trail?

------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

6,

That is a wonderful question. I'm not sure how much of my prior posts you have taken notice of. I try to reveal, as it is impressed upon me by the Holy Spirit, to make it known that God desires a relationship with us all. That's why He made us. He use to come down and spend glorious times of one on one fellowship with man. Even then, man was still responsible for his own actions and was required to work. God's heart has always been towards our best good. There is no one better in all of existence to maintain a standard of perfection, through which judgement must come, than the Perfect Creator of all that exists. It's important to remember that His time scale is not our own. His Love is long suffering and He wants to give us all more than due chance to come into a proper relationship with Him through His Son Jesus Christ. The emphasis is on the relationship. Preparation, stems from that.

The Lord Bless You And Keep You,
ISDAMan

Oxygen,

I implore you to let Dave know that there is a representative of God that would like to talk to him. The terms are simple. God wants to settle this case before bringing him to judgement. He can be free of any consideration of a conviction in God's court. Moreover, God is offering to freely empower his life for good,... more good than He could ever know. Please, let him know that there is someone here that really cares for him. I do.

Proverbs 19:17 He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.
ISDAMan

ok, i dont wanna be the sci-fi freik... but what if. mary was impregnated by aliens, just what if... and jesus was a alien, i mean, you hear about all of these abductees getting impregnated, waht if mary was, and that angel that appeared to her before she was pregnat.... a alien, when jesus was born and stuff.... the bright star... mabe a flying saucer... mabe thats who rescued him from the grave.... and that dark clowd..... a ufo crossing paths with the suns light !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! mabe!

Oxygen,

You are very welcome. I thank God for the sense of peace which has been bestowed upon you and Dave. My prayers are with you both.

ISDMan,

God Bless You, Brother!

Hey dexter -

Just wanted to say welcome back! Haven't seen you around last few days.

Dex',
for a thirteen year old, your mind works in a beautifully cynical way.I love that question.
Ofcourse you know that the Christians will now tell you that , 'well, in one sense you could consider god to be an alien, seeing as he comes from another dimension an' all', ho hum, that's not what you really meant though is it?

Thanks Dexter, for bringing the thread back to the topic. Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and God is Spirit. You can find it in Luke 20. What is spirit? Is it something we just don't know about; like maybe it's beyond our comprehension that the aliens know about? No. The Holy Spirit is that intangible thing that was the force behind the creation of all existence, seen and unseen. By that I mean tangible and intangible (physical and conceptual). Not everything that is real has to be physical.

Anyway, Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not an alien. And the Holy Spirit is not an alien. :)

------------------
There is no such thing as subjective truth.

thanx tablariddim,
but that is not what i ment, i ment that jesus was a alien, and that he was not a god...
but i beileive that god is like the 'force' from star wars... now dont think i'm crazy... but i beileive that it is a energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us... and bindes tha galexy together... wich is true, to waht i beileive... to a certain extrent (did i just make sence?) bacausei dont beileive that 'god' is like what they potray it to be... they potray it to be human, just a higher quality human..... but i think that us... humans, and other creatures... can tap into that energy field.... which might cause are prayers to come true....... because you hear of all these phycics, and teleconetics... and they must do it somhow... so ambe they tap into it... just like a 'jedi' i'm just using reference from starwars... because its waht i can relate it too...

and i here all of that christian bullshit... and i stick with my thoughts cause there mine, and not some other dead guys....


dexter

Originally posted by SkyeBlue:
I have read that a "virgin" birth also was a convenient way for a woman who was not married to explain away a pregnancy, back in the "old days" a couple thousand years ago or so.

Back in the time of Jesus (Esus) the one mentioned as the Virgin Mary was in fact a member of the Vestal Virgins of the Temple of Diana.. Later retired and died in the Temple of Diania in Asia Minor. At this temple this fact is well known. Much of past history of for instance the Biblical times was rewritten and embellished in 360 a.d. to suit the church in its power grab and ousting of women in power. Same as they deny that Jesus was married and had children and the apostles around him were either his brothers or brother in laws. This too would be in accordance to Arcadian linage . Of which the factor of Arcadian royalty and Jesus being married is brought out in the book.."The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail."

Love and Light;
Zivan

Originally posted by SkyeBlue:
Doesn't it bother anyone that pregnancy without some kind of sexual contact is simply impossible amongst humans?? Was Mary non-human, that she could reproduce asexually? Santa Clause exists too, right?

Take the example of the earlier birth of Krishna ..hmmm seems Christ was around long before..He was first developed in a "Sivianna" and then taken out from and inplanted in his mother Mary's womb..Sure sounds like fetal implant technology to many. Many terms and description from these alleged primative ancient times fit modern scientific terms and methods. Even the detailed creation of Eve in lab conditions. Bas reliefs in the Indus -Sumerian structures that show d.n.a. and other biomolecular structures, plus the Ramayana stories and all point to a very advanced past civilization. So many other past gods have similar life stories as Jesus and sayings . Even Jesus learned in a Buddhist monastary , then returned to Palestine to teach. The first paintings of his resurrection show a form of manned spacecraft taking off with him in it..Strange things indeed. ..we civilation is too egotistic to consider looking at all the evidence we are not the first highly evolved civilization that has been here. We have to look at all the evidence and more , open minded and we may well find something even greater than we believe in to make us even stronger in spirit and soul with the Creator.

Love and Light;

Ivan