Well, let's see… (stretching fingers out)

My pet theory is that somehow, these chains greatly contribute to the decline of American society. Naturally, I have no proof for this, just the disgust that they infuse me with gave rise to this thought. American society declines in strength and vigor, thus providing an opportunity for bacteria such as E. walmarti, E. kmarti, to move in, multiply, and gradually sap the strength of the American body politic.

The “-Mart” (i.e. Wal-Mart, K-Mart, etc.) phenomenon can be seen as an entrenching of an increasingly more pervasive consumerism set of values within our society, where possessions and display of possessions become shorthand for showing other members of society that you are a productive, hardworking, contributing member of society. This is in addition to showing by the time of possession displayed that you are cognizant of the fashions and fads of the society - that you play by the rules and are subject to the whimsical authority of society.

This is reinforced by mass marketing, low prices, and endless, mind-numbing advertisements that pound home the fact that the only way to prove that you are a successful human being (and thus a person who deserves love) is to acquire all the possessions that fall into the current approved category. The different -Marts have plugged into that brainwashed desire and become popular because they offer an easy, palatable answer to those too frightened, too cowardly, too stupid, or too lazy to objectively consider the consequences of such a materialistic, shallow, and altogether self-destructive set of values.



...or it could just be because they sell tacky, plastic stuff, and on a busy day, the store is packed with unwashed masses (Walmartians, as we call ‘em around here) that I'd rather not be associated with.

Peace.

I'm doing my part prevent further decline!

That's why I prefer to shop at Ikea, Arhaus, Tiffany's, the Metropolitan
Museum Gift Shop, or Harry Rosen's ... And even then by catalog if at all
possible. The unwashed masses and/or neuvo-riche are everywhere
nowdays.

Take care ;)

Goofyfish,

In my pessimistic moments, I feel that American culture is in a general process of decay. My reading of Morris Berman's, The Twilight of American Culture for example, certainly did nothing to reduce such a pessimisim. If I dwell on the subject long enough, I'm bound to work myself into a funk.

Still, the plebeians have always been among us. They filled Romanesque stadiums to witness bloody spectacles, as they today fill Walmart and Gucci stores alike to purchase trinkets and baubles. Wealth does not produce culture anymore than does a lack of wealth inhibit it. A noble culture may not be purchased, nor is it conferred along with a university degree. We are not born with it, nor may it be inherited.

As much as I think myself superior to the masses, I think myself equally inferior to the best of men. Perhaps Morris Berman had this in mind when he wrote, "Civilization is impossible without a hierarchy of quality." Ah, quality. That's it. That's the essence we're searching for.

Men who aspire to lead inexorable lives of quality have always been in the minority, though I have an idea that their proportion has remained roughly constant throughout the history of civilization. These men are the "keepers of the flame."

Goofyfish, Plato wrote metaphorically that some men are made of gold, others are made of silver, and still others of brass. It would be a mistake to let ourselves be defined by the men of brass, despite their ubiquity or their raucous nature. The quality of our culture is rightfully, though more quietly, defined by men of gold.

Michael

Nice thread..
I have to agree with you all.. To add to this topic, I was born in a Soviet Union - certainly much different than capitalism that surrounds me now. Although it collapsed when I was very young, I noticed some changes in the process of change from the Soviet system.
Lithuania left soviet union 10 years ago. When we left, most businesses were starting to get privatised. The result of that was a LOT of small businesses. Most of them very different from each other. Of course, some people started getting richer, more successful, and chain stores appeared with time. Still it was great to be able to go into town and see plenty of small shops, rather than big ordinary chain stores, I see here in UK.
You still do have choices though - quality is expensive though. I was amazed that people in UK were paying the same amount for cheap bread as in Lithuania. The quality of bread sold here was unimaginable in Lithuania though. I am sure the food quality in Lithuania will go down with time due to cost saving measures.
I believe that anybody can have a sense of quality, the only problem is most people don't really care. They listen to Spice girls, Backstreet boys, eat 30p bread, are amazed by movies like "Titanic". What would you respect them for?
Do you still really think you can respect everybody? I gave up on this idea already..
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

My pet theory is that somehow, these chains greatly contribute to the decline of American society.

Had this comments been made 20 years ago, I would have agreed with you. Today, the situation is different. We are on the verge of a paradigm shift where change is in flux.

During seventies, Kodak created cheap cameras (Instamatics). I noticed that people spent 10 times more money in developing crap pictures taken with a cheap camera rather than buying a decent 35 mm camera. As the Japanese started marketing quality cameras ro Americans, everybody woke up from cheap thrills.

The landscape is changing even though it may not be obvious at the moment. The Walmarts will function similar to the 7-11s while new type of stores will emerge for specialized service. As our employment structure changes - so will the society.

Goofyfish, ever wonder why they're called "chains?" :)

*wraps his arms around his crappy white bread with no flavor*

Do what you want, but leave my wonderbread alone!!

:>

I should bring up a very interesting observation in my home town.

This is a college town with two universities. 3 years ago there was a small JC Penney store. Except for mail order, it did not do too well. Everytime I wanted to buy something, they did not have it or ran out just before I walked in the door. Finally the store closed for good. A new store came in named Goody. I hoped Goody does not close for good.

But Goody is doing very well. They have clothes/products people wanted to buy and so it continued.

Originally posted by ndrs

I believe that anybody can have a sense of quality, the only problem is most people don't really care. They listen to Spice girls, Backstreet boys, eat 30p bread, are amazed by movies like "Titanic". What would you respect them for?
Do you still really think you can respect everybody? I gave up on this idea already..
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
ndrs, you took the words out of my mouth. Apparently those who have lived all their lives in these connditions don't know what is good and what is quality any more. I wana throw out when smone says tht N'Sync and all the rest of those "sugarbands" are cool.

==============
|:::METAL RULZ:::|:D
==============

Hah, they do here...
I had to work here in a few factories once upon a time (reeaalll bad work...) + they used to put the local town radio on all the time - the only things they played was music like that.
Plus, if you don't live in a good city (like London maybe), you wouldn't get a radio station playing decent music at all.
I end up listening to www.bombasticradio.com or www.somafm.com at 24kbs :( :( :(

I have always had a problem with x-mart's predatory business practices. It has been played time and again across the American towns and cities.

A new x-mart opens in a town and the first thing they do is begin to price mom and pop stores out of the market. After the job is done and they are the only game in town, the prices go up. They stay up after that, unless one of the competitors move into town. The first thing to do is to place every road block into place they can including trying to get the populace on their side. After the competitor's store opens you see a price plunge, trying to starve the new business into moving out of the area. If it works, prices go back to the original high places they were while the remaining store recoups their losses and continues to reap their profits. If it does not work then they will go up some and you will see just how much they did overcharge you. Most of the customers think that it is a windfall but they never consider what happened to that local store on the corner they could walk to instead of having to drive across town to get to the chain.

Most mom and pop stores are nice in the fact that if you need help you get it. In the chains it is an act of congress to get help. Ever notice that in the chain stores that there are all those unused registers just standing there while you are forced to wait in long lines for the few that are in use? You should, you pay for them to set there unused as you accept the business practices employed.

One of the silliest things is that one of the x-marts is known for their ads on slicing product prices. Do you really believe that? Yes, they have a few savings. The come on's as they are known to get you in the store. The rest of the prices make up for the little that is lost as you get other things you need while you are there.

This method of business has lead to a decline in tax income, jobs, consumer choices on products, and general service expectations by the consumer simply because the chain store decrees how they will run the business and you, the consumer have little choice after they are the only game in town. That is decline on all fronts...

When I lived in Missouri back in the late 1970's, I worked with an engineer from Arkansas. He told me that his father owned a small store back in his home town until this outfit called Walmart came in and drove his father out of business and into depression. Anyway, Steve made me promise never to shop at a Walmart. Of course I'd never before heard of Walmart, but I promised him anyway. I've never been tempted to break my promise to him.

I buy my toothpaste in a small family owned store where they greet me by my first name. It doesn't bother me that I pay twenty five cents or so, more for the tube.

If only we would quit feeding it, this x-mart cancer would die on it's own. They suck the life out of the downtown business district wherever they spring up.

Michael

I beg to differ wet1

You are looking at the symptom and not the cause. Equilibrium comes when people understand the dynamics and act upon it to a new level. Blaming x-mart is like muslims blaming America for all their troubles. To balance x-mart, here is what has to happen.

Mom and pop stores should join an independent retailers association (like IGA) which gives them some clout as to the size of buying that almost equalizes x-mart advantage. They can talk to the supplier/manufacturer who hate x-mart as much as anybody else. Because x-mart squeezes them too. On top of that, take ot the middle man. Here in USA, we have a tradition of layers of middleman that take a piece of the profit by just being there. Since x-mart cut them out, why cannt small stores.

The point is, by creating a new framework with internet, advanced supply chain and working with the manufacturers directly in a group - we can bring back the mom and pops too.

We also have a tradition of Labor Unions. The SBAs and small stores can learn from it too. It is working smart in the information age. x-mart does not have computers from heaven nor superman running their logistics. It is not difficult to compete them at that level. x-mart has zero customer relationship. How about the rest of the stores?

The truth is, these mom and pop stores do not wish to help anybody than may be 1% of their base. I live in a small town. When we bought our Neptune Washer & Dryer, we first went to a local pop store. He not only wanted to charge the full retail price but wanted to charge the delivery fee ($30) & installation fee of $80 too. The installation consists of attaching the 220 volt cord to the dryer and attaching the drain hose to the washer. Needless to say, I shopped around and ended up at Sears.

The Ni-Cad battery in my Waterpik died after 2 years (Ni-Cads die over time). I looked for a replacement. The factory wanted to charge me $7.50. I found an authorized distributor in Shreveport. I asked if they have it in stock. He said he did and that it will cost $9.00. I thought what the heck, I will pick it up and use it immidiately. When I got there, he charged me $18.00 saying there are two baterries soldered together that looks like one.

If this is the kind of service I get from the Mom & Pops - no thanks. I would rather shop at x-mart or Internet or Costco wholesale.

As usual you bring valid points to the topic, kmguru.

Yes, I have known of such practices and when I run into them, I usually tell them what I think and go elsewhere. A good case in point is computer parts. Most computer stores have a markup that is out of this world. You pay dearly for what you get. X-marts are right in there when it comes to that. I go to a “we make them to order store” to buy my parts. The savings are ridiculous over what you would pay in a store. I do not need $40 to $80 dollars worth of cardboard and hidden costs. Give me what I need and let me go. If you need help they will gladly do that, if you need advice it is there at no extra cost except that you ask for it. Of course they will install said parts at a charge if you so wish.

I arrived at this store because of lack of service, lack of advice, the steep cost of purchasing their product, and general ignorance and apathy to my needs as a customer from the chains. My dollar is a vote and I do not vote for what I do not believe in. If I find a mom and pop that thinks it is all right to gouge the customer then I go elsewhere. They do not have a lock on products or services and shopping around usually resolves the problem. Plus, unlike a lot of folks, I have access to larger markets when needed, depending on the availability of time. I use that to satisfy the needs of service and parts that I require with no need to shop the chains to do it. If that is backward or old timey, then I am certainly guilty of shopping my conscience.

Here is what happened two years ago to me. I think I have posted this on this forum then. As I said before, I live in a small college town. The local newspaper published a letter from a local citizen bitching about how people dont shop locally and go to the nearest city to shop thereby driving the mom and pop shops out of business. Well, I replied that if the local shops want our money, they have to provide better customer service for our hard erned money. That sparked a buzz in town and a radio program and a campaign "shop this town first". As town gossip have it, most people took my side. The campaign created awareness and some activity, but petered out in a very short time.

Why? Because to give you just one example: when I was in this local college 30 years ago, we had a brand spanking large screen movie theater and two older theaters, not to mention a drive-in for us college boys and girls. In fact my first date with Mrs. was in that theater. Two years ago, for nostalgic sake, we went to see a movie. What we found was appalling. The luxurious reclining-seats were all torn, the floor was all sticky and urine smell everywhere. We met the night manager. He said, the owner does not want to do any improvements but because he had a 30 year contract to get the first releases, we were able to see them. Needless to say the theater closed down 6 months later.

I can give you a lot of examples since I am in this small town off and on for the last 30 years. It all boils down to customer service. The other day, I needed two books. Checked the net and found Barnesnoble had the best price and free shipping. While one book showed that it was not in stock, I got the email that both were shipped the same day. Now, that is customer service.

My daughter got a call from one of the chain stores (not the x-mart) Thursday that they are having a managers special sale on Friday for their best customers with a heavy discount. Now that is service. So there is still room for everyone, specially people with good customer service.....

Cease and Desist (http://crass.on.ru/flash/santasurprise.html).

A new x-mart opens in a town and the first thing they do is begin to price mom and pop stores out of the market. After the job is done and they are the only game in town, the prices go up. You're wrong about this. While it's true that small shops are often driven out of business by Wal-Marts lower prices, Wal-Mart does not raise prices once the competition has been driven out. Prices are the same at all Wal-Mart stores everywhere, and economies of scale ensure that they will almost always be able to offer better prices than smaller competitors. What you describe is called 'product dumping,' and is illegal. If Wal-Mart intentionally sold products at prices far below market value in an effort to destroy competition before raising prices, they would be engaging in illegal anti-competitive behavior. Fortunately they don't do this.

The bottom line is that as much as people talk about the importance of customer service, most people prefer low prices to good service.

Since the start of this thread, a lot has changed the way Wal-Mart does business. As the world's biggest corporation, WM does adhere to the law of the land. At the same time, since it sells to the common denominator - there is no variation due to that efficient use of the stores and hence the society is pushed to a common base by WM.

People prefer low prices only when you know what you are buying - like commodity items. Service means asking questions, comparing products and all the activities in the decision process. People prefer low prices but not to the exclusion of good service.

In my neck of the woods, Albertson could not compete with the Wal-Mart supercenter and closed down. Let us see what I missed:

Nishiki Rice
Jasmin Rice
Leechi
Crab Salad
Sweet Oranges
Good quality Zuchini and other vegetables
Good Deli stuff
Premium bread, cakes and icecream
Premium Produce variety
Certain Arizona tea stuff
And a whole lot more

Low prices versus good service is one thing, but it's an entirely different thing when the issue is saving a little money on cheap crap versus spending a little more on something that will last longer. I saw Clark Howard, the penny-pinching, money saving "guru" talk about how he buys the $8 shirts on sale at Walmart or Sam's Club...Why pay $30 for the "same" shirt at another store. Look how much money I'm saving!!!! Well, the reason is, it's not the "same" shirt at the other store. It's a shirt made with the best quality textiles available to the manufacturer, with higher quality manufacturing standards. The cheapie ones may be made by the same company or a subsidiary of said company, but of the lower quality materials not suitable for their top-of-the-line products. The manufacturers are brow-beaten into providing a lower priced product, so the compensate by offering a lower quality product. This is how they can be sold so cheaply to Wallyworld and the like. Low bids made on low quality materials, with cheap labor. So, you pay $8 for the cheap, sweatshop shirt, and it fades and shrinks and develops holes after 3 washings. So, you go buy another one. After 6 more wearings and washings (2 more shirts), you've spent $32 on what is essentially the same shirt. Why not buy the $30 LL Bean or Eddie Bauer shirt and have it last for years? Then, when it does happen to get mangled or holey or whatever, take advantage of those companies' lifetime warranties.

The saying goes, a poor man can only afford a rich man's coat. Spend more for high quality now, and have it last 10 times as long. In the long run, you save money buying the best in the first place, and only have to buy it once. Walmart and its "sell by price" philosophy has made many of us forget this very simple economic principle. So, we have become cheap and price oriented, and we have landfills and dumps filled with crap that fell apart after two uses, and was so inexpensive to replace that no one would bother having it repaired.

It's true that one has to consider quality when deciding whether or not a good is worth its asking price, but it's wrong to say that Wal-Mart only sells cheap crap. Many (most?) of the products sold in Wal-Mart are exactly the same – same manufacturer, same box, same everything – as the products sold at 'higher-class' stores. Wal-Mart is simply able to sell them for less because you get better deals when you purchase things a billion at a time.

Agreed. Also manufacturers commonly put multiple labels on the same product, which are then marketed at many price points. The price differences can be obscene. I used to work at a fish company that canned crab meat. The same can sold for between $0.25 (no-name) and $2.50 for the Kraft brand. I’ve seen the exact same shirt except for the label selling for $8 at K-Mart versus $49 at Izod. Inferior quality rarely seems an issue.

It's true that one has to consider quality when deciding whether or not a good is worth its asking price, but it's wrong to say that Wal-Mart only sells cheap crap. Many (most?) of the products sold in Wal-Mart are exactly the same – same manufacturer, same box, same everything – as the products sold at 'higher-class' stores. Wal-Mart is simply able to sell them for less because you get better deals when you purchase things a billion at a time.

Yes, you can find major brands at Walmart, but they are interspersed with many cheaper, lower quality items that appeal to the price conscioussness that brings most people there in the first place.

They can afford to have lower prices on, say, a Sony TV (may even lose money on it as a "loss leader") but when the similarly-featured but much lower-quality POS Sanyo or Apex or Funai may be 1/2 as much or even less, most people who shop at Walmart would likely buy the cheaper brand. Not only is this price cheaper, there is a higher markup for Walmart. (So, if they can sell a TV that cheap AND make a higher profit, just how cheaply made IS the thing in the first place?) Then, 18 months later, when it's out of warranty and the tube is blown, they're faced with either spending $175 to fix this $199 TV, or buying another one. Most would just buy a new one. So, in 18 months, they've spent $400 on two POS TVs. The second of which will most likely go bad again. Or, they wise up and realize they should have spent the extra $200 in the first place and end up, in essence, paying $600 for the Sony they could have bought for $400 in the first place.

It’s still better to have more choices. Let the buyer decide. I stopped buying Sony products after having so many of them break. The TV repairman told me that Sony uses rock-bottom cheap parts. Cost me $150 for a tiny blown capacitor. You can’t trust name brands either.

True. A good example in my business is the Nikon FM-10 SLR camera. It's a Nikon, right? It's what all the pros use, so it must be good, right? Well, this camera is actually made by Cosina, a low-end manufatcurer in Asia that makes the exact same camera for Olympus, Vivitar and Ricoh, among others. It's not complete junk, but it is nowhere near the quality that Nikon has been known for over the last 40 or so years. Cosina sells the camera and Nikon or whomever puts their name on it. It's a cheap and easy way for a company to pick up a new product to compete in a specific market without having to invest in R&D or manufacturing expenses. In this case, Nikon saw that Pentax was disco'ing the K1000 all manual camera and saw a chance to pounce on that market. The only other all manual camera they had in the line at that time was the FM-2, which retailed for $500+....certainly not in the same market as the $200 K-1000.

So, this brings up the question .... is the Sony you buy at Wallyworld the same as the one you buy at the small, local shop?

Wal-Mart has been around for how many years now? If their low-priced products are so inferior that the poor quality outweighs the savings, then presumably people would stop buying them. It appears that low prices are the number-one concern for most consumers, more important than high quality products, brand names, or customer service. You could argue that it's foolish for consumers to feel this way, but people have the right to make foolish purchasing decisions if they want to. You might think that it’s worth the extra $40 to get a Sony DVD player rather than a Brand Z DVD player, but other people evidently disagree.

Wal-Mart does not sell 3 levels of products. That is good, better and best. They sell products that are just good enough and the price to match. There is nothing wrong with that? When they drive out their competitors who used to sell good, better and best, because there are less number of people who buy the other two groups (simple economics) - the result is a society of "just good enough" people.

So, the society rather than aspiring to be the best you can be - it will be just good enough. It does not stop there. Many years down the road, that just good enough becomes the standard and then everything goes downhill from there. Why?

It is the Wal-Mart policy that the product they sell has to be cheaper for them to buy than the previous year. Which means, second year, the engineers will try to lower the design standards to save money so that they can pass on that to Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart does pass some of that to the consumers. So, imagine, ten years down the road - the product is designed so that it will barely hold up. And that is the problem - big time.

So, as mediocrity creeps in the society, soon we must get rid of Better and Best from our lexicon. And if that does not decline a society fast - then some one is on a happy pill.

(Check out the story of Vlassic pickle and how Wal-Mart drove them to bankcrupty without meaning to, on the net)

Good point, kmguru. Say you are a manufacturer of product X and your sales are so-so, and have been on the decline or hovering at so-so for the last few years. You have had a decent quality product of a slightly higher price than your competitor. Well, your competitor sells big time at Walmart. Walmart comes a' courtin and says, "We'd like to sell your product, but it's way too pricey. If you can get the price down, we will buy 500,000 units this year. If not, no deal." Torn between staying the course and continuing losing sales, you deal with Walmart. How do you get the cost down so you can keep a decent margin? Cut corners. Use plastic where you used to use metal. Use Scotch tape to hold your flex circuits in place instead of metal facets. Use 5 bolts where you used to use 8. .... You get the point. Same brand, similar model to last year's, just much lower in quality. But now they can sell 500,000 units to Walmart at $20 profit each instead of 45,000 units at $60 profit. Walmart wins, you win, the consumer gets a steady stream of crapola that is forever lowering our standards of what is good quality.

I disagree that wal-mart sells inferior goods. The main reason that wal-mart is so much cheaper is not that wal-mart sells inferior goods, but because wal-mart is very good at slashing overhead and taking advantage of economies of scale. True, wal-mart has a very low-class atmosphere, but they sell exactly the same products as other, more expensive stores. I can get a nice Sony DVD player at wal-mart for $80 dollars, or the same DVD player from Circuit City or Sears for $110 dollars. Is saving $30 worth having to deal with annoying crowds and ignorant sales people? Yes, in my opinion. You can shop somewhere else if you want, but you'll probably just end up paying more for exactly the same product.

How do you get the cost down so you can keep a decent margin? Cut corners. Use plastic where you used to use metal. Use Scotch tape to hold your flex circuits in place instead of metal facets. Use 5 bolts where you used to use 8. .... You get the point. Same brand, similar model to last year's, just much lower in quality.Actually the most common solutions are:
1) Move production to a country where you pay the workers $1.50/hour
2) Accept much smaller marginal profits on your sale to wal-mart

You're all assuming just assuming that wal-mart sells crap because they have low prices and you don’t like them. If you actually look into it, you'll see that wal-mart usually creates low prices by forcing suppliers to export jobs to countries with cheap labor and by bullying suppliers into accepting very low profits on their wholesale transactions with wal-mart. That's the real problem with wal-mart: they have sped up the exodus of blue-collar jobs out of the united states and into countries like India and Malaysia.

So, cheap labor by semi-skilled workers at sub-par facilities in countries with lower industrial standards produces a product just as good as when it was made by skilled workers being paid a fair wage?

Agreed about the way Wal-Mart bastardizes the market, but disagree with the notion that Wal-Mart isn't necessarily selling an inferior product under a product name "assumed" to be reputable.

I knew when Lowe's got John Deere to whore themselves out and start producing those cheap-ass imitation JD's that all hope was lost.

Who can say for sure that the "Sorny" you buy at WM is really a Sony?

"Put it in H.........."

Think nonlinear...think temporal (time domain)...According to National Science Foundation:

A better understanding of this historical shift towards increasing connections and interdependencies among heterogeneous factors and how to harness their potential in service to society is necessary. New knowledge is needed to improve the design, use, behavior, and stability of these widely distributed structures and processes for economic prosperity and a vibrant civil society.

NSF believes there is a problem (not specific to Wal-Mart, but general interdependencies in economic activities) so much so that they have a solicitation ref: NSF 04-012 with $90 million in the kitty.

So, cheap labor by semi-skilled workers at sub-par facilities in countries with lower industrial standards produces a product just as good as when it was made by skilled workers being paid a fair wage?Most assembly-line work can be done equally well by pretty much anyone with a little basic on-the-job training. It doesn't matter whether you're an American with a high school degree or a Malaysian with little education. The 'lower industrial standards' don't really come into it. The industrial standards are set at each individual manufacturing plant. It's not any harder to build and run a modern factory in a third-world country than in the West. Actually it's usually easier, because the pollution laws in third-world countries are generally much less restrictive than in more modern countries.

Purchase a Fender Stratocaster guitar made in the US, then one made in Mexico out of the same materials as the the US ones, only made right across the border, and then the Asian-made model. You will see a considerable drop off in quality of construction from one to the next. Night and day. The Asian Strat wil cost you $99. The USA, about $800. Mexican, about $400. They're all Fender Stratocasters, however one is a fine instrument that will last a lifetime, one is a serviceable playing instrument that will do a good job for you, the other will have a hard time staying in tune and will sound like crap. But people buy the Asian models all the time because, "Hey, it's a Strat. Jimi played a Strat. Strats rule and it's only 99 bucks? It looks EXACTLY like that one that's $800. Why should I spend that much when it's the same thing?" Then it can't hold its tune and the frets cut their fingers up and they give up playing the thing and waste $99. That model exists for the Walmart mentality shoppers who don't know the difference between good quality and bad and will make all purchasing decisions based solely on price. These are people who make no mental investment in their shopping decisions.

Well, let's see… (stretching fingers out)

My pet theory is that somehow, these chains greatly contribute to the decline of American society.

Very nice thread goofy.
Not only is the mart chain the problem, the problem is much deeper than that. The problem is in corporations that have literally killed the people's spirits, the neighborhoods, and mamas and papas stores and livelihood. It has transformed America from proud hard working owners to lazy enslaved consumers who are only interested in hit and run profit and not reputation building.

When I hire a painter, I find myself relying on a corporation that hires sub talented mediocres who are painting because they can do nothing else. They little painter who owns nothing and is not invested by any means in the firm, doesn't give a crap about the reputation of the firm and customers service is on the decline.


America is no longer for the people, but belongs to the corporations, and we all are slave to the corporations.

[QUOTE=chunky]Purchase a Fender Stratocaster guitar made in the US, then one made in Mexico out of the same materials as the the US ones, only made right across the border, and then the Asian-made model. [/QUOTE

My Squier only set me back $200, and is as much of a guitar as I'll ever need... the quality break in guitars only comes in at about the $800-$1500 range, which I was never prepared to pay just to hack in my basement.

With consumer electronics, you're actually better off paying less most of the time, since usually they come in three categories:
1) Cheapy - no cost no quality - breaks after a few years
2) Disappointingly expensive - better quality but not worth the money - breaks after a few years
3) Actual quality - only worth the money if you care - breaks after a few years.

Most of these products are pretty ephemeral (although a guitar will last you a good long time); clock radios, blenders, and George Forman Grills all burn out, break down, get full of spiders and explode. Since the very concept of a "high quality" clock radio or tabletop grill is a fantasy, you're usually better of buying cheapy anyway. Lowest Common Denominator still improves over time...

Lowest Common Denominator still improves over time...

The point some of us are making is...it does not improve over time. It contributes to the decline of a society....and the debate goes on while all the good jobs are leaving the country in front of our very eyes.

The leaving of the good jobs doesn't relate - that's a different business decision. Your life is much more comfortable than it would have been fifty years ago.

Your life is much more comfortable than it would have been fifty years ago.

That is what the frog thought while getting boiled in the water. :D

When shopping for something the best advice I can give is to check what CONSUMER REPORTS has on the subject and look for the best price on their best buy pick. If the best price is a Walmart buy it there.

I have a Sony VCR I paid over $300 for almost 10 years ago. Thing still runs like a champ. I had a $99 Maggotbox before that. Junk. I had an $99 Alpine stereo in my car many years ago, died within a year (Don't even get me started on the Walmart Craigs and Kracos I had before that). The $250 Sony I put in was still going strong after 7 years, until it went away when I sold the car. Probably still going.

I think, we are going in the wrong direction. Wal_mart sells low end products, you get what you pay for. But the same product at K-Mart or other places would be slightly more expensive. There is no question that Wal-Mart has the best Supply Chain and Inventory control systems.

But the point is, by selling extreme low end products, are we becoming a society of low enders?

(Sams Club owned by Wal-Mart does sell mid level products while Costco sells high end products)

I thought the point was that Wal-Mart, while not necessarily inventing the concept, has at least been the world leader in the act of bastardizing any market they jump into by shopping vendors into bankruptcy, while at the same time, destroying the local specialty shop.

Oh, and don't forget that once they have entrenched themselves well enough in any market, they bolt as the anchor tenant in the strip property, set up shop literally across the street as a supercenter with no satellite tenants, and then watch with joy as their old satellite compatriots literally wither on the vine and die. And to add insult to injury, they hold the lease on the old store so that no competing large-scale retailer can renovate the old Wal-Mart and revive the property. Farking Walmart. :mad: