I feel a need to talk about that, since people don't seem to understand what "Christian" means.

First of all, the word "Christian" very clearly defines itself:
"Christ- ian"

It means those who follow the teachings of Christ. It also means those who are filled with the God's Spirit. But let's go slowly and point by point.

The meaning of the word "Christ":
No, Christ is not Jesus' surname...:D
The word "Christ" is from the greek word "kristos" which means being anointed. The deep meaning of the word "kristos" is being filled with the Spirit of God. This is what happens when we accept Christ in our hearts and become a Christian, we are filled with the Spirit of God.

The rules:
None. Yes, there is absolutly no rules. God does advise us to Love one another but if you screw up He doesn't condemn you at all.

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
Have you ever wondered why the Bible is divided between "New Testament" and "Old Testament"? Why is that? Very simple, because they are two separate things that don't relate to each other. So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us. In the words of Christ Himself:

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

The parable says that the Old Testament and the New one cannot be mixed together.

How does a Christian should behave:
Like Christ. Why?

IGalatians 2:20
"20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "

1 John 4:16
"16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. "

How many does? Not many, unfortunatly. Let's see how Christ is...

John 8:1-11
"1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.
3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."] "

Jesus didn't condemn her, did He? Neither He condemns you or anyone that sins.

Matthew 9:11-13
"11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." "

Jesus came for the sinners. He came for you and me, and everybody. He came so that we might be justified by faith and not by our works:

Galatians 3:11
"11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." "

He died for our sins. His Love saves everyone that accepts His gift, the gift of His Love.

1 Peter 4:8
"8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. "

He died for us, for our sins.

John 15:13
"13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. "

If He didn't Love us, He would never die for us.

A Christian should be just like this. This is what we call "walk by the Spirit", "the fruits of the Spirit" and "being clothed in a new self":

Galatians 5:16-25
"16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. "

"Living by the Spirit" is being justified by faith, being forgiven.
"Walking by the Spirit" is putting this faith into practice and being like Him.

Ephesians 4:20-24
"20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth."

What God wants for us and gives to us:
Ephesians 3:14-19
"14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. "

James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "

James 1:5
"5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him."

And of course, above everything, God wants us to be saved, so that we can become like Him.

First of all, the word "Christian" very clearly defines itself:
"Christ- ian"

Who's Ian? :D


The rules:
None. Yes, there is absolutly no rules. God does advise us to Love one another but if you screw up He doesn't condemn you at all.


So.... i can become christian but believe in the hindu god and your god wont hold it against me? Cool... If that's the case might aswell just stay agnostic/athiest etc. who cares? If that is the case do you really have to preach so much?


Have you ever wondered why the Bible is divided between "New Testament" and "Old Testament"? Why is that?

Very simple... It was written at different times.


because they are two separate things that don't relate to each other.

Oh i see... So one of them is talking about a different god? So.... there's more than one god? Cool.. Man your arguments get better every day.


Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"
The parable says that the Old Testament and the New one cannot be mixed together.


Where does it say that? Answer= Nowhere. It says and means whatever your mind wants it to mean. Next week i'm sure it will mean something completely different. He's probably just having a whinge at all the local tramps about their dress sense.


How does a Christian should behave:
Like Christ. Why?

Dead? Ah no wonder. Or do you mean while he was alive? Oh i see... so consider yourself right and everyone else wrong and preach to them.... Then realise later on that jews suck and completely change your belief while staying completely right while everyone else is wrong?


"20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "

I'M SPARTACUS!!


1 John 4:16
"16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. "

How many does? Not many, unfortunatly. Let's see how Christ is...

How many does what? Loves? I can guarantee you pretty much every person on the face of this earth 'loves'.


"1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.
3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."] "

Jesus didn't condemn her, did He? Neither He condemns you or anyone that sins.

I know someone who has been adulterous and she came to me for a beer. I did not condemn her.... Worship me... Just because someone is compassionate and understanding doesn't mean they're god.


"11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." "

Man you imagine days like that..... If you were friendly to tax collectors you'd have a lot to gain. Regardless of all this wonderful text we can see a compassionate loving man. That might have been rare in those days but it no way means he's god.


esus came for the sinners. He came for you and me, and everybody. He came so that we might be justified by faith and not by our works:

He didn't come for me... I wasn't even born yet.


"11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." "

He died for our sins. His Love saves everyone that accepts His gift, the gift of His Love.

Saves everyone?? What is there to save? There are no rules with god, according to your very first quote. Thus being evil, sinning, or being anyway you like to be is inconsequential and Jesus appearance is pointless. I also resent the fact you seem to regard jesus as the only loving, compassionate person on the planet. I'm sure there were many, and i know there are many now. You hear of one and hold him above all others and assume he's not human. Really breaks down the human worth.


1 Peter 4:8
"8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. "

He died for us, for our sins.


He died because the Romans felt like killing him- same as Spartacus, same as many many other people.


John 15:13
"13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. "

If He didn't Love us, He would never die for us.

Sounds very much to me like he died for his friends.. Same as Spartacus.


A Christian should be just like this. This is what we call "walk by the Spirit", "the fruits of the Spirit" and "being clothed in a new self":

Fine. Die for me please, i've sinned.


21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

No rules heh.......OOPS! sounds very much like a threat to me. I hate being threatened... tell him to come here i'll crucify him aswell.


"14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,

every family in heaven? Proof of aliens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Woohoooooo. So easy to intepret an old book any way you please.


"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "

Here they're talking about the sun. Even at such an early period the people would know the power and meaning of the sun. Look at how many sun gods were believed before this time... The sun was always there in the sky- making things grow, giving life, giving warmth and happiness.. Father of lights= sun. Imagine you hold a candle vs the sun? The father of all lights would be the sun. Unlike the moon, the sun does not vary in shape, and unlike the moon the sun does not cause darkness. You shout God! When in fact it's more substantial to look upon this text as speech about the sun.


And of course, above everything, God wants us to be saved, so that we can become like Him.

God wants? That means there's ways to fail? Which means there's rules. You clearly stated THERE ARE NO RULES. Obviously you are mistaken.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
The rules:
None. Yes, there is absolutly no rules. God does advise us to Love one another but if you screw up He doesn't condemn you at all.

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
Have you ever wondered why the Bible is divided between "New Testament" and "Old Testament"? Why is that? Very simple, because they are two separate things that don't relate to each other. So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us. In the words of Christ Himself:
How does a Christian should behave:
Like Christ. Why?


Truthseeker,

I see some contradictions above. If Christianity have absolutely no rules to follow, then why even worship god, which is a rule, first commandment, and why act like Jesus, which is a big rule, because to describe how he acted, you need to write a book of rules, and why need a new testament, if no rules out of it apply. Does god say, the bible is given to you for your reading enjoyement anywhere?

Truthseeker,

What about heaven and hell? I have always been disturbed with the belief that there is a place where God condemns the unfaithful for eternity to live in constant pain. Doesn't Christianity preach that by not believing in God you have to go be the Devil's buttboy for all eternity?

What if I cured cancer tomorrow (not going to happen b/c I am not that smart in sciences, and I am not even currently researching the topic) and won the noble prize, and spent all my money curing everybody in the entire world. I save countless millions of people, which is certainly many millions more than Christ will ever save, and I live a moral life outside of the belief system of Christianity or ANY other faith/belief structure on this planet, would I be spending my unearthly infinity time eating BBQ with the morning star?

I saw a play one time where a group of people protested that without the love (in these term 'belief') of Jesus Christ in your heart, you aren't getting anywhere near the pearly gates. WTF??? What if you spent your entire life curing disease, providing care for the needy, educating the masses, and spreading peace, but you could care less about getting into heaven/pleasing your invisible "father"

I plan on living a moral and ethical life without the incentive of a fictional eternity of bliss. Nice try though, no rules??? There are more rules than I care to think about. I will live my life by my rules, which are dictated by logic, reason, and compassion. If I mimic something JC said, so be it, but I don't plan on being either rewarded OR punished for my actions in an afterlife...because there is no such thing

ZERO MASS

Only because there are no rules to follow for Christians that doesn't mean that we should worship another God or keep sinning. You have to take into consideration ALL that is written:

Romans 6:1-7
"1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. "

Besides, there IS one commandament (two, for those that don't grasp very easily the concept). But even if you don't follow, you are forgiven.

Luke 10:27
"27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." "

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Only because there are no rules to follow for Christians that doesn't mean that we should worship another God or keep sinning. You have to take into consideration ALL that is written:


Truth, stop for a second and listen to yourself.. Nothing to follow means nothing at all. You can't make your rules as you go like you're doing right now. Every church picks the verses they like the most and say they're following those and that no other rules apply, because Chrisitians have no rules......This creates Chaos and secularism. You end up with 100 of denominations and fellowships. That's maddness. There are marriage rules, abortion rules, death penalty rules, rape rules, rules regarding worshipping the one god, ect.....

If there are no rules, then there is no sin, no hell, no heaven, no god, no religion.....Pure and Simple.

What you don't understand is that if you are filled with the Spirit of God and you are aware of it, you will follow the Law naturally. If you are not aware of it, you will try to follow the Law anyways.

What I said about no rules is that to go to Heavens all that you need to do is to believe in Christ and accept Him. If you do that, that's enough. But if you believe that, you will follow the Law not because you HAVE TO, but because YOU LOVE GOD. We are free from the Law of sin and death, and with this freedom, we are able to go further and become like Him.

You have to know the balance. You and everyone read "no rules' and made a whole discussion about only one point and ignoread ALL the rest. That's why your view of what I wrote is so twisted.

This is the very lie satan is using to deceive people into believing they are saved in this day...so they won't look any further for God....

"The spirit of God in a man, searcheth out the deep things of God".

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
What you don't understand is that if you are filled with the Spirit of God and you are aware of it, you will follow the Law naturally. If you are not aware of it, you will try to follow the Law anyways.


Cool Truthseeker, I'd suggest that you change your name to Turthfounder, because it doesn't look like you're seeking anything.

TruthSeeker:
What I said about no rules is that to go to Heavens all that you need to do is to believe in Christ and accept Him. If you do that, that's enough. But if you believe that, you will follow the Law not because you HAVE TO, but because YOU LOVE GOD.

So Joe goes out and kills a person (lets say it was a 9/11 related hate crime), spends some bullshit time in prison where he "finds christ" and dies some indeterminant time in the future. He goes to Heaven as long as he repents and accepts Jesus Christ/ the love of God?

Andy the Atheist spends his life caring for the weak and the sick, and he goes to hell? b/c he doesn't subscribe to a religion? Who did Andy kill?

What I said about no rules is that to go to Heavens all that you need to do is to believe in Christ and accept Him.

All you need to do? Ah! That's a rule then? Oops- you're a donut.

TheVisitor,


This is the very lie satan is using to deceive people into believing they are saved in this day...so they won't look any further for God....

John 3:16
"16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "

Romans 10:8-10
"8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. "

Do you deby the Word of God? It is YOU that is deceiving everyone.:bugeye:

heflores,


Cool Truthseeker, I'd suggest that you change your name to Turthfounder, because it doesn't look like you're seeking anything.
I search Truth from the point I know with 100% of assurance that is true.


Zero Mass,


So Joe goes out and kills a person (lets say it was a 9/11 related hate crime), spends some bullshit time in prison where he "finds christ" and dies some indeterminant time in the future. He goes to Heaven as long as he repents and accepts Jesus Christ/ the love of God?

Andy the Atheist spends his life caring for the weak and the sick, and he goes to hell? b/c he doesn't subscribe to a religion? Who did Andy kill?
The issue is not what you do. By the Law, you would have to NEVER sin in your life in order to go to Heaven. That's impossible. With Christ, you are simply filled with the Spirit of God and all your sins from past, present and future are instantly forgiven, because it is not you that live anymore but Christ that lives in you. He did the work for us.


SnakeLord,


All you need to do? Ah! That's a rule then? Oops- you're a donut.
By rule I obviously meant something that you MUST do habitually.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
I search Truth from the point I know with 100% of assurance that is true.
Do you continually speak out your ass, or is it only for us?

The issue is not what you do. By the Law, you would have to NEVER sin in your life in order to go to Heaven. That's impossible. With Christ, you are simply filled with the Spirit of God and all your sins from past, present and future are instantly forgiven, because it is not you that live anymore but Christ that lives in you. He did the work for us.
So, everyone sins. Everyone's sins are forgiven if they believe in christ. Yet you are only judged by what you know. So those who do not know of christ can not be judged. So what happens to them?

By rule I obviously meant something that you MUST do habitually.
You obviously don't know what a rule is.

You are truly an idiot. I was hoping that some glimmer of intelligent thought would appear within you, but you remain an idiot.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
The issue is not what you do. By the Law, you would have to NEVER sin in your life in order to go to Heaven. That's impossible. With Christ, you are simply filled with the Spirit of God and all your sins from past, present and future are instantly forgiven, because it is not you that live anymore but Christ that lives in you. He did the work for us.

Please make this statement more clear. I do not understand it. Use my example of Joe and Andy if it helps to explain. What you have written there is somewhat sketchy and I think you could do a better job on getting your point across.

I apologize in advance if you have already explained this, but please repeat it anyway.

ZERO MASS

Persol,


So, everyone sins. Everyone's sins are forgiven if they believe in christ. Yet you are only judged by what you know. So those who do not know of christ can not be judged. So what happens to them?

2 Peter 3:9
"9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. "

He will give everyone an opportunity to hear the good news. You are already listening it.


You obviously don't know what a rule is.
A rule is obviously something that you do more then once. Accept Jesus in your heart you do only once. A rule, you have to keep doing it. Accepting Him in your heart is just an action.


You are truly an idiot. I was hoping that some glimmer of intelligent thought would appear within you, but you remain an idiot.

1 Peter 3:8-9
"8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;
9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. "

Bless ya :p

Zero Mass,


Please make this statement more clear. I do not understand it. Use my example of Joe and Andy if it helps to explain. What you have written there is somewhat sketchy and I think you could do a better job on getting your point across.
Ok... although Andy was usually good, there was at least one thing that he did that wasn't very nice. Because of that one thing, he was influenced by it and he became not so nice.

Joe, although he killed someone, he was later filled with God's Spirit. whcih washed away what he has done.

It's easier to see if you compare it with taking a shower. Joe was pretty dirty because he sinned. When he accepted Christ, God started living in Him, so he was washed by His Spirit and became clean.

Andy, although he was usually clean, got a little dirty, so he wasn't really "clean".

Another example is comparing sins with cancer.
Joe sinned. He got lots of cancerous cells. When He accepted God into himself the cancer was totally cleared, not even one cancerous cell stood.

Andy, although he had no cancer, one day got a little cancerous cell. In result, this cancerous cell made him... let's say "dangerous".

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Ok... although Andy was usually good, there was at least one thing that he did that wasn't very nice. Because of that one thing, he was influenced by it and he became not so nice.

What was that one thing? Not believing in god! And for that he is dirty and must spend eternity in hell even though he led a better life than Joe did? Holy Crap, you wrote more stuff, hold on...


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Joe, although he killed someone, he was later filled with God's Spirit. whcih washed away what he has done.

Ok, so religion is the soap we use to wash away our sins. SO, Joe can do anything in this mortal realm as long as sometime before he dies he finds god and scrubs up for his appearance before saint peter?
So Joe (that bad, bad boy) can rape, kill, steal, destroy, and denounce god for the sham that he is for like forty years, then spend some time repenting and god will forgive him and reward him with eternity in "paradise"???
I thought religion was supposed to be like a moral code for a people to live by to help keep order in the world. You make it out that it allows anything as long as you repent for it. What’s this? You wrote more...



Originally posted by TruthSeeker
It's easier to see if you compare it with taking a shower. Joe was pretty dirty because he sinned. When he accepted Christ, God started living in Him, so he was washed by His Spirit and became clean.

Andy, although he was usually clean, got a little dirty, so he wasn't really "clean".

Dumbfounded...I guess this is the crap that you people like to preach though. In my world, KILLING PEOPLE IS WRONG, it’s THE worst thing you can ever do. Please tell me where you live, so I can stay far, far away in peace where people don't think that it's cool that they kill one another.


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Another example is comparing sins with cancer.
Joe sinned. He got lots of cancerous cells. When He accepted God into himself the cancer was totally cleared, not even one cancerous cell stood.

Cancer, right. Well TruthSeeker, I'm glad you at least didn't use the AIDS as your example. Btw, what does Christianity say about homosexuals gaining admittance into heaven? Just curious.


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Andy, although he had no cancer, one day got a little cancerous cell.

Ok, so he didn't have cancer, but he did have cancer. Right, I got it, continue... (totally mocking you there, holy crap I rule)


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
In result, this cancerous cell made him... let's say "dangerous".

How is this not the same as your previous example? And what exactly do you mean by "dangerous"?
b/c Andy helped people out in life and never hurt anybody? Yeah, that’s what I call dangerous. Especially when there are people like Joe (*see above) to compare Andy to in society.
Whom do you fear more?
A Killer or an Atheist?

ZERO MASS

Andy the Atheist spends his life caring for the weak and the sick, and he goes to hell? b/c he doesn't subscribe to a religion? Who did Andy kill?

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


Andy will be jugded according to his good works..........sure

God is fair and mercifull, and the bible has the answers.

Andy will be raised up someday and jugded according to his works, and given the chance to recieve christ in the milineum, when the bride sits with christ in that city as the Son of David, (The son of david was the wisest man that ever lived, Solomon)
The nations of the earth will be allowed to enter at the gates of the city and enquire of God's wisdom from His bride.
These words are as the fruits of the tree of life...Solomon said so.

We will be kings and priest...Don't you know the saint's shall judge the angels.,

Yes Andy will get his chance to hear of god, AS LONG AS HE HAS NOT RECEIVED THE MARK OF THE BEAST FOR REJECTING THE TRUTH IN THIS LIFE.

Hebrews chapter 6

bah, thats true, i dont believe in god, but i try to lead a good life, be nice to people, be a decent person etc. If not believing in god lands me in hell thats ...well, ridiculous. Remember that more than half of the 6 billion people on earth DONT believe in god.

Originally posted by Carnuth
If not believing in god lands me in hell thats ...well, ridiculous.

Religion is ridiculous, what do you expect? Logic, Reason, Compassion? No, these appear to be out of the scope of god (or at least Christianity). p.s. Carnuth, you rock- ZERO MASS


Originally posted by TheVisitor
Andy will be raised up someday and jugded according to his works, and given the chance to recieve christ in the milineum, when the bride sits with christ in that city as the Son of David, (The son of david was the wisest man that ever lived, Solomon)
The nations of the earth will be allowed to enter at the gates of the city and enquire of God's wisdom from His bride.
These words are as the fruits of the tree of life...Solomon said so.

We will be kings and priest...Don't you know the saint's shall judge the angels.,

Just a reminder, Andy is a fictional character, don't get too carried away. And this whole part here was a bit much to swallow, I mean, holy crap man.


Originally posted by TheVisitor
Yes Andy will get his chance to hear of god, AS LONG AS HE HAS NOT RECEIVED THE MARK OF THE BEAST FOR REJECTING THE TRUTH IN THIS LIFE.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume (make an ass out of U and ME, but U more than ME) that "rejecting the truth in his life" means not believing in Christ.
Holy Crap, he doesn't believe in god, he doesn't want to hear what crap comes out of his mouth. I think you are missing the point here a little.
And what about Joe, the killer guy (who is also fictional, btw. I mean there could be a killer named Joe out there but I have no knowledge of him at this time) Does he get "to hear of god"? whatever that means.
Lets go back to Andy there, um, He doesn't believe in heaven or hell, or god for that matter. Is he still a fool in your eyes even though he lives a life of service and not evil?

ZERO MASS

Religion is ridiculous, what do you expect? Logic, Reason, Compassion? No, these appear to be out of the scope of god (or at least Christianity). p.s. Carnuth, you rock- ZERO MASS

hey hey, you guys are generalizing! Christianity, Islam, and Judaism arent the only religions! No Logic, Reason, or Compassion?! You cant just say ALL religion is ridiculous. There IS such a thing as a good christian, a good muslim, a good jew, etc. Dont believe in something so blindly that you count out all possbilities.

Zero Mass,


What was that one thing? Not believing in god! And for that he is dirty and must spend eternity in hell even though he led a better life than Joe did? Holy Crap, you wrote more stuff, hold on...
No, it wasn't just not believing in God. He simply did something wrong.


Ok, so religion is the soap we use to wash away our sins. SO, Joe can do anything in this mortal realm as long as sometime before he dies he finds god and scrubs up for his appearance before saint peter?
So Joe (that bad, bad boy) can rape, kill, steal, destroy, and denounce god for the sham that he is for like forty years, then spend some time repenting and god will forgive him and reward him with eternity in "paradise"???
I thought religion was supposed to be like a moral code for a people to live by to help keep order in the world. You make it out that it allows anything as long as you repent for it. What’s this? You wrote more...
If Joe is filled with God, how can he do all those things that you said he can? Besides, read Romans 6 again... How many times do I have to post the same verses until you get it?


Dumbfounded...I guess this is the crap that you people like to preach though. In my world, KILLING PEOPLE IS WRONG, it? THE worst thing you can ever do. Please tell me where you live, so I can stay far, far away in peace where people don't think that it's cool that they kill one another.
Who said killing is "cool"!?!?!? You are twisting it again! That's ridiculous and immature!


Cancer, right. Well TruthSeeker, I'm glad you at least didn't use the AIDS as your example. Btw, what does Christianity say about homosexuals gaining admittance into heaven? Just curious.
What about it? They repent, accept Christ in their hearts, stop sinning, then go to Heaven. That's it.:bugeye:


Ok, so he didn't have cancer, but he did have cancer. Right, I got it, continue... (totally mocking you there, holy crap I rule)
Oh my God... You are being immature again...:rolleyes:
He didn't have, but then he got it. What? Everyone that has cancer has had cancer since they were little babies?:bugeye:


How is this not the same as your previous example? And what exactly do you mean by "dangerous"?
b/c Andy helped people out in life and never hurt anybody? Yeah, that’s what I call dangerous. Especially when there are people like Joe (*see above) to compare Andy to in society.
Whom do you fear more?
A Killer or an Atheist?

An atheist of course. Read what you wrote. You are way too immature...

QUOTE]Originally posted by TruthSeeker
No, it wasn't just not believing in God. He simply did something wrong.[/QUOTE]

What did he do that was wrong other than not believing in the myth that you believe in?


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
If Joe is filled with God, how can he do all those things that you said he can? Besides, read Romans 6 again... How many times do I have to post the same verses until you get it?

Can't he kill a lot of people then find god? Then he would be accepted into heaven, correct? That is what I was trying to point out, that god forgives sins no matter what the person did on earth.


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Who said killing is "cool"!?!?!? You are twisting it again! That's ridiculous and immature!

I think you said god said it was cool, as long as you repent and accept Christ into your heart after the act. You can be forgiven when you repent, then you are accepted into gods kingdom and spend all eternity in heaven with him. Isn't that what the latter part of Romans 6 says?
I totally agree, that is ridiculous and immature...and crap.


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
What about it? They repent, accept Christ in their hearts, stop sinning, then go to Heaven. That's it.:bugeye:

So you think homosexuality is a sin that must be repented before one gains acceptance into heaven? Can I ask you why you believe homosexuality to be a sin?


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Oh my God... You are being immature again...
He didn't have, but then he got it. What? Everyone that has cancer has had cancer since they were little babies?

I am being immature there; I thought it was pretty funny.


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
An atheist of course. Read what you wrote. You are way too immature...

Who would you rather invite into your home? A killer or an Atheist? Let’s use the example, Andy or Joe?

And answer this, how is Andy the Atheist more "dangerous" than Joe the KILLER (that means he kills people)?

In response to your repeated accusation that I am immature, well, I am, but its b/c you're talking about fairy tales and using childish reason in place of logic that my maturity level has decreased, crapface.

ZERO MASS

Zero Mass,


What did he do that was wrong other than not believing in the myth that you believe in?
I don't know. What I do know is that it is impossible to live a perfect life...:eek:


Can't he kill a lot of people then find god? Then he would be accepted into heaven, correct? That is what I was trying to point out, that god forgives sins no matter what the person did on earth.
Yes.


I think you said god said it was cool, as long as you repent and accept Christ into your heart after the act. You can be forgiven when you repent, then you are accepted into gods kingdom and spend all eternity in heaven with him. Isn't that what the latter part of Romans 6 says?
It is not "cool". It is ok to be forgiven after repenting.
Romans 6 basically say that we are forgiven, and also advises us not to sin anymore because we are free from sin. If you understand this concept (free from sin) then you are able to understand God's forgiveness.


I totally agree, that is ridiculous and immature...and crap.
You know I'm talking about what you are saying.


So you think homosexuality is a sin that must be repented before one gains acceptance into heaven? Can I ask you why you believe homosexuality to be a sin?
Not healthy, not natural,....


Who would you rather invite into your home? A killer or an Atheist? Let’s use the example, Andy or Joe?
If Joe is seeking God and is repented, certainly Joe.


And answer this, how is Andy the Atheist more "dangerous" than Joe the KILLER (that means he kills people)?
If he is an atheist in the sense that wants anyone to believe in God, then he doesn't kill bodies, but worse, he kills souls.


In response to your repeated accusation that I am immature, well, I am, but its b/c you're talking about fairy tales and using childish reason in place of logic that my maturity level has decreased, crapface.
A mature person is never immature, not even in this kind of situation.

TruthSeeker,

Your morals and ideas are good on paper, but are very unrealistic in real life. Its just nonsensical if you re-read what you just wrote, particularly:

1) An aethist is more dangerous than a murderer

2) Homosexuality being unnatural , its genetic! i dont see anything more natural than genetics, and according to the bible, god created people which includes our DNA which in itself contains the potential for people being homosexual

3) And you would trust a murderer in your home more than someone who doesnt want to accept what people tell him, and think for himself about his own creation? Thats a bit naive, you cant trust someone to be truly reformed, at least not in this age sadly.

Thanks Carnuth,
I knew that I couldn't be the only person who thought that TruthSeeker was a little off...
You would rather have a killer in your home than an atheist?
With that kind of intelligence, how have you not died yet?

ZERO MASS

Because he also believes that God will protect him from anything from nuclear weapons to murderers. If he is killed it is because God needs him in the afterlife.

Now my idea of God... He'd let him be killed as punishment for stupidity.

As you can see from the number of posts I have here I'm brand new so if I make an ass out of myself I hope you all can understand.


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
What about it? They repent, accept Christ in their hearts, stop sinning, then go to Heaven. That's it.

Actually in Leviticus 20.13 it says..


If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death.

I'm not sure is this what you mean by repenting TruthSeeker? How many homosexuals have you killed? Isn't it a sin to kill another man? Of course this is all old testament stuff so I could be talking out of my ass here.

One final thing I personally don't believe in Hell so in your examples given before I believe both Andy and Joe will go to heaven. Can anyone accept the possibility that all people go to heaven when they die? Certainly an all loving god could not be so harsh as to make his children rot forever in a place like hell?

Just a thought anyways..

Horseman42

Inviting an atheist into your home is more dangerous than inviting a murderer? Come on now.

If your faith and religion was really solid, surely it should easily stand up to any challenge put by an atheist?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
The rules:
None. Yes, there is absolutly no rules. God does advise us to Love one another but if you screw up He doesn't condemn you at all.That's not what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17 - 19
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:16 - 18
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

Nor is it what Paul said:

Romans 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.See above.

~Raithere

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.

Well like i said is the old testament talking about a different god? Is it just fake writing or what?

Let’s continue the discussion of Andy & Joe, and hopefully into a perspective which can be easily understood. Let’s make them brothers & their father is the richest man in town.

Andy does all the good deeds, helps people, & is considered a good man. But Andy does not want to know his father & has not spoken to him since leaving home. Andy hates his father, wants no reconciliation, and wants nothing to do with him.

Joe murdered someone & is serving the time for the crime. Joe repented, & has asked his father’s forgiveness. Joe loves his father & is ashamed of what he did.

What should the father do about his sons?

Carnuth,


1) An aethist is more dangerous than a murderer
If he kills souls it is true.


2) Homosexuality being unnatural , its genetic! i dont see anything more natural than genetics, and according to the bible, god created people which includes our DNA which in itself contains the potential for people being homosexual
SIn also become genetic through Adam.


3) And you would trust a murderer in your home more than someone who doesnt want to accept what people tell him, and think for himself about his own creation? Thats a bit naive, you cant trust someone to be truly reformed, at least not in this age sadly.
No weapon shall prosper against me. Yes, sadly it seems hard for someone to be reformed in this age... but people can really repent, you know?

Zero Mass,


With that kind of intelligence, how have you not died yet?
"No weapon shall prosper aginst you."

Persol,


Because he also believes that God will protect him from anything from nuclear weapons to murderers. If he is killed it is because God needs him in the afterlife.
Why would God need me?


Now my idea of God... He'd let him be killed as punishment for stupidity.
You still don't know the "punishment" for stupidity...:bugeye:

Horseman42,

Welcome :)

Actually in Leviticus 20.13 it says..
Old Testament.

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.
And the real tranlation for that would be:
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall die [or "shall be dead]."
Because "the wages of sin is death". It is something that occurs naturally. The Law of God was desgined tpo mantain people alive. That's why it is written so many times "shal die" or "shalle be put to death", or whatever. The point is that death is a natural result of sin, not something that should be actually done.


I'm not sure is this what you mean by repenting TruthSeeker? How many homosexuals have you killed? Isn't it a sin to kill another man? Of course this is all old testament stuff so I could be talking out of my ass here.
It is a sin to kill. But read above for an explanation about the Law.


One final thing I personally don't believe in Hell so in your examples given before I believe both Andy and Joe will go to heaven. Can anyone accept the possibility that all people go to heaven when they die? Certainly an all loving god could not be so harsh as to make his children rot forever in a place like hell?
Depends what hell is and who make the choice...

James R,


If your faith and religion was really solid, surely it should easily stand up to any challenge put by an atheist?
You are right. I'm not there yet. I'm still working on my faith and I'm still learning lots about the Word of God. But someday, if I can stand being in this situation, I will get there...

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.

For the third ignored time now..... I fail to see how something written by YOUR God has nothing to do with you.

I also wonder why you would consider an athiest as 'worse than a murderer'. You stated: If he kills souls........ Who's souls are you referring to? You know the real undeniable truth so why would you be scared souls would be killed. He therefore wouldn't be killing the souls of religious folk who know the truth- he would only be killing the souls of other athiests who are blind to the truth and do exactly the same as he does. So.... how can an athiest be 'worse than a murderer'? It is becoming all the more apparent you are 'confused'. You think you can answer your confusion by putting everything you have into one singular belief. The problems arise when you can't answer questions relating to that. I can sense that deep inside the subconcious is aware that you don't really believe that which your concious mind is hanging onto for dear life. It is that inner thought/outer thought conflict that is causing your confusions in life. Think i'm wrong? Prove it.

SIn also become genetic through Adam.

ummm... how did u come to that conclusion?

Raithere,


Matthew 5:17-19
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "
He fulfilled the Law in the cross. The Law said that we were sinenrs and that He would come to pay for our sins. He already did it. The Law is fulfilled. That's the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the four gospels, it is still Old Testament since He wasn't dead yet. The New Testament begins just after His ressurection.

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "
Yes, because the Law never fails.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
The difference between the "old" commandment and the "new commandment is that we do the "new" because we Love Him, while with the "old" it was an obligation.

Making it easier for you to understand... there is only one commandment: "Love one another". In the Old Testament, you HAD to do it in order to go to Heaven, because you were under the Law. So in the Old Testament, it was really a commandment. In the New Testament, you don't HAVE to do in order to go to Heaven. HOWEVER, you do it anyways just because it pleases you to do so, and it is also easier since you are not under the Law anymore and you have no pressure anymore. So now it is not really a "commandment" anymore, nto something you HAVE to do, so it is not really a rule anymore. But if you want to have a nice life, better follow this commandment.


Luke 16:16 - 18
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."
He is talking about the Old Testament and the New one. When He said that "the Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. When John was born, He bring the baptism of water, which is the baptism where you accept the plans God has for you in your life. And the plans God has for all of us is for us to be saved. The rest is just details, since our livers is like a blink of an eye compared to an eternity.

Then He continues "since that time, the golpel of the kingdom of God has been preached". So here, He is telling us what is going on NOW. He told that the Law was prached before, and now since the Law is fulfilled by Him in our behalf, we are free from the Law.

And then "and everyone is forcing his way into it." Certainly, because everyone wants salvation, so everyone seek to be saved and be a part of God's Kingdom.

"But it is easier tfor heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."
Again, He affirms that the Law never fails and those that are under it will perish. But the Kingdom of God, which He preaches, free us from the Law of sin and death.


Romans 2:12-16
"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;"
Romans is already New Testament. This passage tells us that those who are under the Law and go against it will perish. Those who are "without" the Law are those who don't accept the Law, don't follow it. But all those who accepted the gift of God shall not perish, but have eternal life in Christ Jesus.

"for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."
Those who hear the Law and don't follow it are not just before God, but those who hear it and act on it will be justified. All Christians are already justified by faith. It is also written:

Romans 5:1-2
"1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. "

To go deep in the meaning of the scriptures you need to read lots of it and know everything that is written.

"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, "
Those are the Christians :)
It is also written:

Hebrews 8:10
"10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. "

That's what happens when you become a Christian. You follow the Law naturally, because He write the Law in your heart; so that you are not justified by the works of the Law, but by faith in Chrit Jesus, the hope of righteousness. :)

SnakeLord,


Well like i said is the old testament talking about a different god? Is it just fake writing or what?
The Old Testament is just a preparation for the New. It was somthing that God created until the days that would come when He would live in His people again.

SVRP,


What should the father do about his sons?
Are you a Christian...?:)

This is not exactly the situation you described, but it talks about the importance of repenting... you made me remember this...:

Luke 15:11-32
"11 And He said, "A man had two sons.
12 "The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them.
13 "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
14 "Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
15 "So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 "And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
18 'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
25 "Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
26 "And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
28 "But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
29 "But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
32 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"

Also in the same chapter:
Luke 15:4-7
"4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. "

SnakeLord,


For the third ignored time now..... I fail to see how something written by YOUR God has nothing to do with you.
Just because He is my God, that doesn't mean He will write things just for me... He wrote that for the Jews, and for you and other unbelievers.



I also wonder why you would consider an athiest as 'worse than a murderer'. You stated: If he kills souls........ Who's souls are you referring to? You know the real undeniable truth so why would you be scared souls would be killed. He therefore wouldn't be killing the souls of religious folk who know the truth- he would only be killing the souls of other athiests who are blind to the truth and do exactly the same as he does.
Exactly. He kills the souls of other atheist, and ignorant people, people that don't know the Word of God. If someone come and tell someone else that you are a bad person and a liar, wouldn't that person, when talking to you, have already a mind set to believe that you were lying? In the same way, atheists can do that with others. That's how atheists can "kill souls".


So.... how can an athiest be 'worse than a murderer'? It is becoming all the more apparent you are 'confused'.
I'm not confused. What is worse, for someone to kill a Christian and send him to Heaven, or for someone to convince someone that God is not true and send that person to live for the rest of eternity in hell? Who really murdered: the murdere or the atheist?


You think you can answer your confusion by putting everything you have into one singular belief. The problems arise when you can't answer questions relating to that. I can sense that deep inside the subconcious is aware that you don't really believe that which your concious mind is hanging onto for dear life. It is that inner thought/outer thought conflict that is causing your confusions in life. Think i'm wrong? Prove it.
I don't think you are wrong... until some point. Subconsciously I still don't believe. It is only my conscious that do believe. If I were also believing subconsciously I would just go to Africa and feed all people there. But my faith didn't get to the point where my subconscious is also affected by it.

TruthSeeker


And the real tranlation for that would be:
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall die [or "shall be dead]."
Because "the wages of sin is death". It is something that occurs naturally. The Law of God was desgined tpo mantain people alive. That's why it is written so many times "shal die" or "shalle be put to death", or whatever. The point is that death is a natural result of sin, not something that should be actually done.


Acctually my Bible, the one I've studied (the King James) states exactly "shall be put to death". Many people are homosexuals and not dying, and others are commiting even "worse acts" like rape, murdering, and even genocide and they are still alive. Unless perhaps your talking about the fact we may all die one day your example is invalid.


Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.

So just what sections of the Bible are ok? Are the 10 commandments ok? Sometimes I don't understand why Christians can selectively only extract what they want from the Bible and ignore the rest.


Depends what hell is and who make the choice...

Again I have to state I do not believe in HELL. That is a hell with little devils running around, with fire and shit everywhere. A place where the soul goes for being bad in life or for whatever reason, where it spends the rest of eternity in pain and suffering. An all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful being such as God wouldn't set things up like this as it entirely makes no sense. In your examples BOTH Andy and Joe would go to heaven as there's no where else for them to go.

Horseman42

The Old Testament is just a preparation for the New. It was somthing that God created until the days that would come when He would live in His people again.

Well that's what you said first off... And to me that would signify utmost importance. Preparation is just as important as anything that follows but you seem to think otherwise: "It's nothing to do with us!"

If you can hold the word of God to be true and of such importance how can any word of god be less than any other?

Then you go on to say:


Just because He is my God, that doesn't mean He will write things just for me... He wrote that for the Jews, and for you and other unbelievers

So i see... Those particular words of God are irrelevant 'cause they were just for the dumbass jews and dumbass non believers?

It has been accurately shown that most of that material is translation upon translation stemming from Sumerian texts. If you say it was written by God you are aware you're talking about some other God? In fact- Gods? As such the 'preparation' for your faith was given by a bunch of people that didn't even believe anything you do. Can we honestly be so self righteous and ignorant to just say: "They're wrong, i'm right"?

By the same token can you just deny anyone? The Jews, the non-believers, etc? Of course you can't.

Us 'Non-believers' are a loving and kind group of people. We ask questions- we seek truth. We are well aware of what love, compassion and all the other worldy virtues are.

You on the other hand dismiss everyone else as wrong- claim nobody but you has love, knows what love - are forgiven above us etc etc etc. It is that very self righteous, highly naive and ignorant attitude which annoys people. You happily devalue the human ability, the human 'being' above that which a book states as real. You pick and choose whatever you like in order to attempt meager satisfaction of your beliefs and ignore or deny anyone with a serious question. If you do reply to any question you don't explain anything in a manner anyone would appreciate. You should realise us pathetic non believers do not have the capacity to understand the bible so why continually quote it and avoid answering a question in 'normal' manner? To us, your little quotes answer nothing.

I've read the bible many times and can say i see it in a opposite light to you. The overwhelming majority of it is so contradictory to deny any credibility it might otherwise have had. The rest of it is pure violence, hatred, belittling on the side of your God. He has happily created chaos, anarchy, destruction, despair all of which you cannot answer.

I left this on another post but it was ignored completely. I wonder why that is.....

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God..."

"Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children..... Defile the temple and fill the courts with slain. Go!...."

What else...

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the apple or they would instantly die. The serpent said they wouldn't.... The serpent was right. God was a liar.

"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain..." (God has a heart? Doesn't that possibly suggest mortality?) "...I will wipe makind, whom i have created, from the face of the earth.."

"Then the Lord rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah.... but Lots wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt"

The ten plagues.... (you know what he did there)

Feast of Tabernacles .... (why does god need cows, sheep and virgin women as offerings?)

"The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the book of the Law until you are destroyed... Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.."

"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."

Does this not show true evil? Where's this 'love', 'compassion' etc that you state? Of course you, the church, the religious folk tend to ignore stuff like this. He even went so far as to say it 'pleases' him to ruin and destroy. It also pleases me to kill people- does that make me bad? After all i am made in the image of god- i only have fun doing what he has fun doing.


Exactly. He kills the souls of other atheist, and ignorant people, people that don't know the Word of God. If someone come and tell someone else that you are a bad person and a liar, wouldn't that person, when talking to you, have already a mind set to believe that you were lying? In the same way, atheists can do that with others. That's how atheists can "kill souls".

How does anyones soul get killed? People have free will and can do as they please. Unlike certain religions non believers do not brainwash people. Unlike all religions non believers do not target people when they're at their most emotionally fragile. Athiests dont kill anything. We question, we debate, and we seek knowledge. You just sit there and condemn us- but that's ok cause jesus will forgive you right? You don't even realise the inherent evil that comes with religious attitude. Self righteousness, ill-mannered neglecting of anyone who doesn't believe exactly as you do. Hell i've even seen all the eternal bickering you lot get upto. There's another thread where some religious christian says most are false christians but he's a 'real' christian etc. What a lot of old nonsense. You cause more bad feeling and generate more hatred than anyone else- then condemn others for that.

You go so far as to claim a murderer is better than an athiest. It is that very attitude that devalues the human existence and shows how shallow a life you must lead. I feel sorry for you.


I'm not confused. What is worse, for someone to kill a Christian and send him to Heaven, or for someone to convince someone that God is not true and send that person to live for the rest of eternity in hell? Who really murdered: the murdere or the atheist

Here i prove what i said above... What is worse? You make it sound like human life has no value! What a fucking rip off. This is what i mean by devaluing human existence. What about the victims mother/children? Tell ya what... By your own rationing i might aswell go kill all christians now- doesn't sound like its too bad a thing to do in your eyes. Of course that's harmless. I kill a million christians and it's all fine- i turn athiest and im evil. Boy, you really need to wake up.


I don't think you are wrong... until some point. Subconsciously I still don't believe. It is only my conscious that do believe. If I were also believing subconsciously I would just go to Africa and feed all people there. But my faith didn't get to the point where my subconscious is also affected by it.

Give that subconcious a chance to be heard instead of locking it away because you're scared to think otherwise. I'm sure even God with all his acts of evil can forgive you for searching that which is hidden within yourself.

The argument of religion is age old. Plain and simple: no one is right, and no one is wrong. Especially Christianity. You can't prove that God really exists, and you can't disprove His existence. I'm really tired of people trying to prove other people wrong. EVERYONE IS RIGHT IN THEIR OWN SENSE! There is absolutley no reason to for one Christian to claim other non-Christians wrong. S/he should keep his religion to himself, or express it among other Christians so as not to upset anyone. There cannont be a resolution to this argument, so there should be no reason for this argument to continue. Man created religion, and Man's creation is destroying him. So please, PLEASE discontinue the argument. If you have any insight/criticism, please share. I look forward to whatever anybody has to say.

Willson: Ever wondered whether a forum allowing people to debate religion is the place for you to be then?

Perhaps you should stick to gaming forums/mp3 forums or whatever.

The purpose of this forum is not to be right it's to debate issues, To gain knowledge. I've learnt some things here, as im sure others have so why would you consider it pointless?

Before asking others to discontinue debate because you can't cope with it- consider the alternative of your departure from this forum. Problem solved.

I DON'T consider it pointless. I realize that people are opinionated, as am I. I'm not bieng critical, because I strongly disagree in trying to disprove or approve God, or any other thing like that. You imply that I'm anti-debating, which I'm not. If you would like my opinion, here it is: I think God exists. And I don't hate people who don't believe in Him. I don't think they'll go to Hell, mostly because they don't beleive in a Hell to go to. I'm very interested in learning about what the "other side" has to say, in terms of why they believe there is no God.

Willson13,


I think God exists. And I don't hate people who don't believe in Him. I don't think they'll go to Hell, mostly because they don't beleive in a Hell to go to. I'm very interested in learning about what the "other side" has to say, in terms of why they believe there is no God.

I'm with you man. I believe the same as well! However I know I don't have all the answers, and I'm here to learn whatever I can. You really have to consider if this is the right forum for you. People like Snakelord and Truthseeker make this forum a very active forum for debate, and I gladly welcome reading their replies.


Horseman42

Horseman42,


Acctually my Bible, the one I've studied (the King James) states exactly "shall be put to death". Many people are homosexuals and not dying, and others are commiting even "worse acts" like rape, murdering, and even genocide and they are still alive. Unless perhaps your talking about the fact we may all die one day your example is invalid.
We all sin, therefore we all die. Death is the natural result of sin.


So just what sections of the Bible are ok? Are the 10 commandments ok? Sometimes I don't understand why Christians can selectively only extract what they want from the Bible and ignore the rest.
It is ALL ok. However, what is really for Christians is simply the New Testament stuff. The 10 commandments is basically "Love one another". That's all. You don't really need to rely on 10 commandments when you only really need 1.


Again I have to state I do not believe in HELL. That is a hell with little devils running around, with fire and shit everywhere. A place where the soul goes for being bad in life or for whatever reason, where it spends the rest of eternity in pain and suffering. An all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful being such as God wouldn't set things up like this as it entirely makes no sense. In your examples BOTH Andy and Joe would go to heaven as there's no where else for them to go.
Andy can't go to Heaven. Andy said to God: God, I don't believe you exist. I don't want to be in your presence. It was Andy's choice. Besides, again, it depends what is hell. If it is eternal suffering in fire or just a place where God doesn't exist (like an atheist's mind...:bugeye: ).

Any chance of getting a response to my post Truthseeker?

(Unfortunately you seem to be the only religious type readily attempting to answer questions and offer knowledge. I don't know what happened to your brethren like Visitor, Jenyar and so on but they seem to have left you all alone to cope by yourself. As such i apologise if i seem to have put everything upon your shoulders- it is not my intention but the vansihing act of your counterparts leaves no choice.)

SnakeLord,


Any chance of getting a response to my post Truthseeker?
I don't waste my whole day in front of the computer...:bugeye:
Me wonders if you do...:p


(Unfortunately you seem to be the only religious type readily attempting to answer questions and offer knowledge. I don't know what happened to your brethren like Visitor, Jenyar and so on but they seem to have left you all alone to cope by yourself. As such i apologise if i seem to have put everything upon your shoulders- it is not my intention but the vansihing act of your counterparts leaves no choice.)
I understand that...
You are forgiven :p

SnakeLord,


Well that's what you said first off... And to me that would signify utmost importance. Preparation is just as important as anything that follows but you seem to think otherwise: "It's nothing to do with us!"
It is just that its importance is diminished. The Law still have Its use. However, most people (like Catholics) use It to condemn others. Well... we are not under the Law anymore, so I stress that it is diminished. Here is the comparison between the Old and New:

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

This one also talks about that, and more clearly:

Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."


So i see... Those particular words of God are irrelevant 'cause they were just for the dumbass jews and dumbass non believers?
It has some importance, but nopt as much as people seem to think. The Law is already written upon our hearts, and we don't NEED to follow it in order to go to Heaven (we follow it naturally anyways...). So His Words aren't irrelevant, they are just being specially adressed to Jews and non-believers.


It has been accurately shown that most of that material is translation upon translation stemming from Sumerian texts. If you say it was written by God you are aware you're talking about some other God? In fact- Gods? As such the 'preparation' for your faith was given by a bunch of people that didn't even believe anything you do. Can we honestly be so self righteous and ignorant to just say: "They're wrong, i'm right"?
Many Jews didn't accept the revelation of Christ. However, there are many cases of Jews that realized the importance and truth of the New covenant. Take for example Paul. He used to kill Christians. Then, one day as he was going to Damascus, he saw a light from Heaven that blinded him, and then Jesus spoke with him and revealed that He IS Christ. Paul though that He wasn't, he was just trying to work for God. By ignorance, he worked against God. After the revelation, he became an apostle and without him the New Testament would have many less books...:bugeye:


By the same token can you just deny anyone? The Jews, the non-believers, etc? Of course you can't.
Deny? In which sense?


Us 'Non-believers' are a loving and kind group of people. We ask questions- we seek truth. We are well aware of what love, compassion and all the other worldy virtues are.
It usually doesn't seem so...


You on the other hand dismiss everyone else as wrong- claim nobody but you has love, knows what love - are forgiven above us etc etc etc. It is that very self righteous, highly naive and ignorant attitude which annoys people. You happily devalue the human ability, the human 'being' above that which a book states as real. You pick and choose whatever you like in order to attempt meager satisfaction of your beliefs and ignore or deny anyone with a serious question. If you do reply to any question you don't explain anything in a manner anyone would appreciate. You should realise us pathetic non believers do not have the capacity to understand the bible so why continually quote it and avoid answering a question in 'normal' manner? To us, your little quotes answer nothing.
I usually quote and explain a lot. Wheter you have the capacity to understand it or not, I guess that's your own personal problem, and I can't do much about it.


I've read the bible many times and can say i see it in a opposite light to you. The overwhelming majority of it is so contradictory to deny any credibility it might otherwise have had. The rest of it is pure violence, hatred, belittling on the side of your God. He has happily created chaos, anarchy, destruction, despair all of which you cannot answer.
I guess you have read a different Bible than I did, then...:eek:


I left this on another post but it was ignored completely. I wonder why that is.....
Which one? I don't spend the whole day in the internet...


Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God..."
Have you ever read it in Hebrew? Well... I honestly think the Bible needs a good revision. Just because God wishes us to worship Him, that doesn't mean He is jealous. The people translating it might have assumed that He was jealous by that very reason. So you need to go back to the Hebrew and see that. Also, and interlinear Bible might do the job.


"Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children..... Defile the temple and fill the courts with slain. Go!...."
Again, need to check on Hebrew. Also make an extense look into the scirptures. There were some scriptures like that that I totally couldn't understand. After reading further and going deeper and keeping it in my mind I could figure out what they meant. Oh... and please tell me where it's written.


God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the apple or they would instantly die. The serpent said they wouldn't.... The serpent was right. God was a liar.
Where God said that they would "instantly" die? God said that they would die because to eat from that tree was a sin. The wages of sin is death. That's why they would die. The serpent said they wouldn't. The serpent was a liar. The serpent lied to them saying that they would become like God. Did they become like God? I don't think so. God said the Truth. They died.


"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain..." (God has a heart? Doesn't that possibly suggest mortality?) "...I will wipe makind, whom i have created, from the face of the earth.."
The "heart" or "soul" is a part of every living being. What suggest mortality is a body and a dead spirit. A spirit is dead because of sin. For example, your spirit is dead, since you are a sinner. That's what makes you a mortal. My spirit is alive, and that makes me immortal, not in body, but in spirit.

And again, quote it from the Bible so taht I can read the whole passage. If I can't read the whole passage, I can't really give an answer (unless I, myself, know where it is).


"Then the Lord rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah.... but Lots wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt"
Quote...


The ten plagues.... (you know what he did there)
What are you talking about exactly? When Moses bring the Jews out of Egipt?


Feast of Tabernacles .... (why does god need cows, sheep and virgin women as offerings?)
Virgin women? Quote it...


"The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the book of the Law until you are destroyed... Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.."
Is that Deuteronomy 28? The word "bring" there is, in Hebrew, "allow". It is a result of the Law. If you brake the Law, those things happen to you. You reap what you sow...


"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."
Again... if you are under the Law, you have to keep it.


Does this not show true evil? Where's this 'love', 'compassion' etc that you state? Of course you, the church, the religious folk tend to ignore stuff like this. He even went so far as to say it 'pleases' him to ruin and destroy. It also pleases me to kill people- does that make me bad? After all i am made in the image of god- i only have fun doing what he has fun doing.
When Adam sinned, His image was not expressed in us anymore. We were made in His image, but transformed in the image of the one we worship then- Satan. When we sinned in the garden, we became slaves of sin. When Jesus died for us, we became slaves of righteousness (all Chistians, of course).

I continue later... I don't have time now...

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

Why didn't you feel the need to include the rest of this? Jesus is talking about fasting. They ask him why his people are not fasting like the rest of them and he goes into chat about bridegrooms, and garments.

It bears absolutely NO relevance to old vs new testament. You really believe you just have the right to pick and choose particular sentences to meet your needs in this circumstance? Shocking.


Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."

This is talking about sacrificing goats and bulls and how it's a worthless thing to do. Again you just pick one sentence out of the bible and ignore the fact it does nothing to help your claims if anyone has taken the time to read the rest of it.


It has some importance, but nopt as much as people seem to think. The Law is already written upon our hearts, and we don't NEED to follow it in order to go to Heaven (we follow it naturally anyways...). So His Words aren't irrelevant, they are just being specially adressed to Jews and non-believers.


The law is already written upon our hearts too. You think morals and good doing comes from a book? Comes from a voice in your head? We don't need to follow it either but anyone past the age of 2 will know the differences between right and wrong naturally. The Jews and non believers are no different. Don't be an ignoramus.


he saw a light from Heaven that blinded him, and then Jesus spoke with him and revealed that He IS Christ.

He saw a comet. How would you explain the sighting of a comet 2000 years ago? They didn't even know what a comet was a couple of hundred years ago let alone a couple of thousand. He runs off to his buddy and mentions his sighting whereby Jesus takes full advantage of his friends fragile state of mind, (just like christians have been doing ever since), and tells him he is god. What's to say Jesus wasn't just an accomplished con artist? I wouldn't have thought carpentry earned that much money. Maybe he even faked his own death- it has happened before.


Deny? In which sense?

Do you think you can state the Jews are wrong, the non believers are wrong? The hindus, ancient greeks, the vikings.... Can you state they are all wrong? If you answer yes i'll be forced to call you a self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole. I know you'll forgive me though so it's not a hassle.


It usually doesn't seem so...

Well you see.... the love, compassion and goodwill of non believers is coded to the minds that don't have the capacity to understand. You must 'want' to find it, or you never will.


I usually quote and explain a lot. Wheter you have the capacity to understand it or not, I guess that's your own personal problem, and I can't do much about it.

No you quote tiny little segments of text and try to attribute it to something completely unrelated. You explain nothing but claim everything. As for my lack of understanding... Whatever you think.


I guess you have read a different Bible than I did, then...

Or you just haven't read it at all.


Again, need to check on Hebrew. Also make an extense look into the scirptures. There were some scriptures like that that I totally couldn't understand. After reading further and going deeper and keeping it in my mind I could figure out what they meant. Oh... and please tell me where it's written.

Always the way.... Anything that you religious folk find distasteful becoms nothing more than bad translation. Anything you claim is the absolute 'word of god'- anything we claim is fucked up Hebrew/Greek etc. Someone like you has just left an identical reply on another thread. He claims it's mistranslated Greek, you claim it's mistranslated Hebrew....... You both seem able to pick and choose what god said and what was translated incorrectly.



Where God said that they would "instantly" die? God said that they would die because to eat from that tree was a sin. The wages of sin is death. That's why they would die. The serpent said they wouldn't. The serpent was a liar. The serpent lied to them saying that they would become like God. Did they become like God? I don't think so. God said the Truth. They died.

I'll accept that as an answer. See.... i'm a nice guy like that- i wont sit here and say you're just reading mistranslated Hebrew.


The "heart" or "soul" is a part of every living being.

So the heart and the soul are the same thing?


For example, your spirit is dead, since you are a sinner.

If my spirit is dead, because im apparently a sinner, then so is my heart- as they are one and the same. I just had it checked by a doctor- it's still alive and beating. You are wrong.


My spirit is alive, and that makes me immortal, not in body, but in spirit.

Lol...... you have such a high ego.


And again, quote it from the Bible so taht I can read the whole passage. If I can't read the whole passage, I can't really give an answer (unless I, myself, know where it is).

I'll bear that in mind next time i quote.


What are you talking about exactly? When Moses bring the Jews out of Egipt?

Have you even read the bible??


Virgin women? Quote it...

To save boring everyone go read it. If you can't find it i'll paste it all later.


Is that Deuteronomy 28? The word "bring" there is, in Hebrew, "allow". It is a result of the Law. If you brake the Law, those things happen to you. You reap what you sow...

Once again it comes down to bad translation. While we're on the subject of bad translations you do realise Elohim is actually a plural word meaning 'Gods', not God as it was badly translated as meaning. Thus there's more than one god and you're wrong. Yes/no? If it's a simple as classing everything as a bad translation there's one more for you to consider.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again... if you are under the Law, you have to keep it.

That's all you could say? Still, i guess it's better than blaming it all on bad translations- however read it once more... I think your 'explanation' lacks any kind of justification.


we became slaves of righteousness (all Chistians, of course).

Slaves of self righteousness. You're absolutely right.

To be a christian is to say

- Lord Jesus Christ in every other sentance...
- To hate your own family and blood because they chose to stay catholic and to hang around complete strangers who attend your church and treat them like family.
- To love your pastor more than you have ever loved or respected your dad.
- To always feel high and up in the sky on the social rush that you get from attending church.
- To feel like the pastor like you most of all, and that one day, you'll head the church and lead all those people.

TruthSeeker,

Thank you for your speed reply.

You said...


We all sin, therefore we all die. Death is the natural result of sin.

Here's another quote in the Bible from Leviticus 10.16


One who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; the whole congregation shall stone the blasphemer.

That sounds real natural to be put to death. I guess it must be alright if God commanded it though right? Don't forget he is the same God in the new testiment.


It is ALL ok. However, what is really for Christians is simply the New Testament stuff. The 10 commandments is basically "Love one another". That's all. You don't really need to rely on 10 commandments when you only really need 1.

Again your picking and choosing what you believe. If it's all OK then it must have been OK that blasphemers to be stoned to death. Wait there's more...


Andy can't go to Heaven. Andy said to God: God, I don't believe you exist. I don't want to be in your presence. It was Andy's choice. Besides, again, it depends what is hell. If it is eternal suffering in fire or just a place where God doesn't exist (like an atheist's mind... ).

God is our father I'm sure you've heard him called this. Almost all fathers would never condemn their children to a hell. To deny Andy a place in heaven would be crazy. If god is everywhere (which is what I was taught to believe) then he would even exist in an atheist's mind, as well as inside Andy's soul. I can't fathom how God could say I don't want to be in Andy's presence because he would in effect be saying I don't wan't to be in my own presence. This means God would be crazy!

It's also unfair to Andy. The decision to believe in God or not is a very difficult one. We would be here talking if it wasn't. Surely God would understand this fact.

Horseman42

SnakeLord,

Why didn't you feel the need to include the rest of this? Jesus is talking about fasting. They ask him why his people are not fasting like the rest of them and he goes into chat about bridegrooms, and garments.

It bears absolutely NO relevance to old vs new testament. You really believe you just have the right to pick and choose particular sentences to meet your needs in this circumstance? Shocking.
Oh my God... You have absolutly no idea what the verses are talking about...

Luke 5:30-35
"30 The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?"
31 And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.
32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
33 And they said to Him, "The disciples of John often fast and offer prayers, the disciples of the Pharisees also do the same, but Yours eat and drink."
34 And Jesus said to them, "You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?
35 "But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days." "

This passage is talking about Christ's ressurection. The thesis is in the 31 verse, NOT on the 33 one. Verse 33 talks about the opinion of the Pahrisees, whcih are those that are against God. What you have done is to consider that the Pharisees were talking, while in truth, Jesus was talking. In verse 32 He expands the idea and say that the righteous ones don't need Him. In verse 34, He gives the answer to the Pharisees:

"You cannot make the attendants of t bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you? But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days."

The "bridegroom" is Himself. He is using a metaphor. Then, when He is taken away, then there would be fasting. And then He goes on and explains why He has to be taken away and the consequences. which is verses 36 to 39.


This is talking about sacrificing goats and bulls and how it's a worthless thing to do. Again you just pick one sentence out of the bible and ignore the fact it does nothing to help your claims if anyone has taken the time to read the rest of it.
No it's not.

Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."

The verse is talking about the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament. In the Old, you had to be forgiven everytime. In the New, there is no such thing. The verse says that the Law was just a preparation, or in a better word, a blueprint, of the things to come, the New Testament.


The law is already written upon our hearts too. You think morals and good doing comes from a book? Comes from a voice in your head? We don't need to follow it either but anyone past the age of 2 will know the differences between right and wrong naturally. The Jews and non believers are no different. Don't be an ignoramus.
The mouth speaks which feels the heart. The tree is recognized by its fruits. No, you don't have the Law in your heart. The Law is just in you mind, that's all. But it is not really deep in you, it is just on the surface. And morals and good things did come from the Law of God. What is the oldest document that talks about morals and law? Moses came up with the very first document about our laws. Those laws were inspired by God. Then, the laws were changed and many more things were added, unfortunatly...

The Jews and the unbelievers need to follow those Laws in order to go to Heaven. All of them. Never brake not even one of them.


He saw a comet. How would you explain the sighting of a comet 2000 years ago? They didn't even know what a comet was a couple of hundred years ago let alone a couple of thousand. He runs off to his buddy and mentions his sighting whereby Jesus takes full advantage of his friends fragile state of mind, (just like christians have been doing ever since), and tells him he is god. What's to say Jesus wasn't just an accomplished con artist? I wouldn't have thought carpentry earned that much money. Maybe he even faked his own death- it has happened before.
The light blinded him. It couldn't be a comet. Besides, not only Paul, but two guys that were with him heard Jesus when He was speaking.


Do you think you can state the Jews are wrong, the non believers are wrong? The hindus, ancient greeks, the vikings.... Can you state they are all wrong? If you answer yes i'll be forced to call you a self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole. I know you'll forgive me though so it's not a hassle.
I'm not self right and all that just because I deny they are wrong. You, yourself say that I'm wrong and everybody elease is wrong and that you are right, don't you? So... can I call you self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole? I guess so... if that's the case...:p


Well you see.... the love, compassion and goodwill of non believers is coded to the minds that don't have the capacity to understand. You must 'want' to find it, or you never will.
No. You have no love or compassion or anything like that. You are judges and self righteous people. You have nothing of godly in you.


No you quote tiny little segments of text and try to attribute it to something completely unrelated. You explain nothing but claim everything. As for my lack of understanding... Whatever you think.
I provided extensive explanations for every scripture I presented to you and to others. It is you atheists that get bits and pieces of scripture in order to find a "contradiction" in it. That's how you find a contradiction in the Bible, comparing to a common book:

You read one sentence saying:
"The house is yellow."

And in another part totalyl different you read:
"The house is blue."

Then you say that those two sentences contradict each other. However, you totally got it out of context. The possibilities could be basically:
- the sentences are talking about two different houses
- the sentences are talking about the same house in two different time frames

So, you totally twist the Word trying to get it out of context. I usually post huge chuncks of scripture in order to avoid you doing that, and I always ask for the verses you post for the same reason (many times you don't say where to find it in the Bible)...


Or you just haven't read it at all.
What? Now, you are saying that you know it better then I? That's kinda funky...:rolleyes:


Always the way.... Anything that you religious folk find distasteful becoms nothing more than bad translation. Anything you claim is the absolute 'word of god'- anything we claim is fucked up Hebrew/Greek etc. Someone like you has just left an identical reply on another thread. He claims it's mistranslated Greek, you claim it's mistranslated Hebrew....... You both seem able to pick and choose what god said and what was translated incorrectly
If you doubt, just go ans study Greek and Hebrew...
There are LOTS of space there for mistakes. A little list of possible mistakes:
- an adjective being mistaken by an adverb and vice-versa
- mistranslation caused by a single accent or lack of it in the word
- mistranslation caused by the interpretation of a case (like mistaking vocative for genitive)


So the heart and the soul are the same thing?
The heart is the deepest part of the soul.


If my spirit is dead, because im apparently a sinner, then so is my heart- as they are one and the same. I just had it checked by a doctor- it's still alive and beating. You are wrong.
No, your spirit is not one with your heart. They are two separate parts of you.


Lol...... you have such a high ego.
No. Just because I say the truth, that doesn't mean I have a high ego.


Have you even read the bible??
Not the WHOLE Bible. And I'm pretty sure you haven't read it all either.


To save boring everyone go read it. If you can't find it i'll paste it all later.
Paste it or give me the reference.


Once again it comes down to bad translation. While we're on the subject of bad translations you do realise Elohim is actually a plural word meaning 'Gods', not God as it was badly translated as meaning. Thus there's more than one god and you're wrong. Yes/no? If it's a simple as classing everything as a bad translation there's one more for you to consider.
"God" and "gods" depends on the verse. When it is written about "gods", it is talking about false gods. Like when Aaron made an idol and people bring sacrifices to it. That was a false gods. God said: Don't worship any other god then me. Because it is pretty stupid to worship an object that has no life in it.


That's all you could say? Still, i guess it's better than blaming it all on bad translations- however read it once more... I think your 'explanation' lacks any kind of justification.
It is also written that if you don't keep the Law you will get yourself accursed. Who curse who? It is you that curse yourwself by your own actions. Like if you go and sleep with your neightbour's wife and then he kills you. It was you that made him kill you. You bring destruction upon yourself.


Slaves of self righteousness. You're absolutely right.
Is it self righteousness to say that we are not rigtheous unless God is in us, that we depend on Him to be righteous? Or is it self rigtheousness to say that you don't need any God in order for you to be righteous and great?

Horseman42,


That sounds real natural to be put to death. I guess it must be alright if God commanded it though right? Don't forget he is the same God in the new testiment.
Yes, it is the same God in the New Testament. That's why it is written:

John 8:3-11
"3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord." [And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."] "

Jesus also healed in the Sabath, which was not "lawful". The key here is: who are us to judge the sins of others? We are also sinful, so should we stone ourselves also? Jesus makes you think about those things. The Law was written for unrighteous people and can only be fulfilled through a righteous one. So you can only be stoned by a righteous person. Since everyone sins, who can stone you? Jesus? God? But they don't, because they have forgiven you.


Again your picking and choosing what you believe. If it's all OK then it must have been OK that blasphemers to be stoned to death. Wait there's more...
No I'm not. It is written:

Romans 13:8-9
"8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." "


God is our father I'm sure you've heard him called this. Almost all fathers would never condemn their children to a hell. To deny Andy a place in heaven would be crazy. If god is everywhere (which is what I was taught to believe) then he would even exist in an atheist's mind, as well as inside Andy's soul. I can't fathom how God could say I don't want to be in Andy's presence because he would in effect be saying I don't wan't to be in my own presence. This means God would be crazy!
No, God is not everywhere in this sense. God cannot live inside you unless you accept so. Also, God doesn't live inside pigs either :bugeye:. In the same way the air is everywhere, God is everywhere. The air goes inside you if you allow so, and so does God.


It's also unfair to Andy. The decision to believe in God or not is a very difficult one. We would be here talking if it wasn't. Surely God would understand this fact.
If you are humble enough to recognize you are a particle of dust compared to the universe, you are perfectly capable to believe in God and, actually, also to know He exists.

sycoindian,

Sorry about the late reply... it is quite hard to write for so many people...

ummm... how did u come to that conclusion?
Romans 5:17-18
"17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. "

TruthSeeker,

First off thanks for the quick response your posts always give me somthing to think about.


Yes, it is the same God in the New Testament. That's why it is written:

Then my question is why was it right to stone people in the Old Testiment and not in the New? It's still the same God. Why would God issue two different laws? You have to at least admit this is a little confusing. How can God change his mind about things? How do we know he won't change his mind again and make athiesm ok? Why not just tell us what is right from the begining?

It's rather ridculous for God to give us free will and then give us Commands to follow. If we don't follow these commands (or at least some) we go to hell. It doesn't feel much like free will if someone is pointing a gun at our heads.



So you can only be stoned by a righteous person. Since everyone sins, who can stone you? Jesus? God? But they don't, because they have forgiven you.

Right so again why was it ok to stone people before and not now?


No, God is not everywhere in this sense. God cannot live inside you unless you accept so. Also, God doesn't live inside pigs either . In the same way the air is everywhere, God is everywhere. The air goes inside you if you allow so, and so does God.

First off I have to ask what's wrong with pigs? So God only exists in the air or perhaps empty spaces? I'm not sure I follow what your saying?


If you are humble enough to recognize you are a particle of dust compared to the universe, you are perfectly capable to believe in God and, actually, also to know He exists.

So others that may not comprehend God does exist is set to go to hell (or away from heaven). What about people who cannot understand like Retarded people and babies? If you really think about it only a select people believe in God others may not know through no fault of their own. Isn't it obvious that people could be "misguided" it's not really that easy of a decision.

Horseman42

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
He fulfilled the Law in the cross. The Law said that we were sinenrs and that He would come to pay for our sins.No, the Jews do not believe in original sin. It is a Christian doctrine based upon Paul's writings (Romans 5:12). It was developed by St. Augustine (354-430) as an explanation as to why bad things happen to good people and was not officially accepted into Christian doctrine until the Council of Orange in 529AD. I might add that Augustine could not read the 'original' Greek and based his doctrine upon the Latin Vulgate, which contains a mistranslation of that passage.


Yes, because the Law never fails.If the laws of the OT never pass away and never fail than how can you conclude that they do not apply to us?


The difference between the "old" commandment and the "new commandment is that we do the "new" because we Love Him, while with the "old" it was an obligation.I seriously question your interpretation; Jesus was confirming the Commandments here, not saying that they no longer apply. Christ's doctrine was that we need to live by the intent of the laws of the OT rather than simply applying the letter of the law.


Making it easier for you to understand... there is only one commandment: "Love one another". Please show me where Jesus indicated this.


In the Old Testament, you HAD to do it in order to go to Heaven, because you were under the Law. So in the Old Testament, it was really a commandment. In the New Testament, you don't HAVE to do in order to go to Heaven.Again, please provide the relevant evidence.


Romans is already New Testament. This passage tells us that those who are under the Law and go against it will perish. Those who are "without" the Law are those who don't accept the Law, don't follow it. But all those who accepted the gift of God shall not perish, but have eternal life in Christ Jesus.That's funny, I see two conditions stated yet you have introduced a third. If this is what was meant why wasn't it stated that way? Personally, I find that you are simply making shit up.


Those who hear the Law and don't follow it are not just before God, but those who hear it and act on it will be justified. All Christians are already justified by faith. It is also written:I tend to find most of what Paul (who stresses faith over works) says to questionable in any case but I would ask you who you believe more Paul or Jesus:

John 9:4
"We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 10:37
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

No, working within the context of the Bible, I have to go with James:

James 2:14-17
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James 2:20
But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


Those are the ChristiansNo, Gentiles are anyone who is not Jewish. What is being said is that if one follows the goodness in one's heart one will automatically follow the law, not that the law does not apply or that there is a different law.


That's what happens when you become a Christian. You follow the Law naturally, because He write the Law in your heart; so that you are not justified by the works of the Law, but by faith in Chrit Jesus, the hope of righteousness.I disagree, see above.

~Raithere

Oh my God... You have absolutly no idea what the verses are talking about...

Luckily the bible i'm looking through here actually explains sections. It's obviously them who know nothing about the bible. Even though it's been put together by all the best schollars you know better. But aside from that let's look at your quotes:


31 And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.

You turned this line into bold text and tell me it's about Jesus ressurrection? ehe ok. Jesus went to a big banquet held by Levi, (a tax collector). There were many tax collectors there. The Pharisees and the teachers of the law complained asking why he would eat and drink with tax collectors and 'sinners'. Jesus responded: "It's not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

It's funny that in thousands of years nothing has changed.... we still regard tax collectors as sinners. :D

It has nothing to do with ressurrection whatsoever.


Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."

The verse is talking about the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament. In the Old, you had to be forgiven everytime. In the New, there is no such thing. The verse says that the Law was just a preparation, or in a better word, a blueprint, of the things to come, the New Testament.

Well i'll leave you with your baseless assumptions. It seems you read one line and attribute completely unrelated meaning to it without reading the whole paragraph at least. Hebrews is not talking about old vs new testament- but i need not sit here trying to convince you of that, you make your own interpretations.


No, you don't have the Law in your heart. The Law is just in you mind, that's all. But it is not really deep in you

What the fuck do you know about me? Nada/squat/zero/nothing.


And morals and good things did come from the Law of God.

Hmmm no.


What is the oldest document that talks about morals and law? Moses came up with the very first document about our laws.

The oldest documents talking about morals and law are not found in the bible. You would assume that because you've read nothing else. As for Moses.... He's just a translation of Sargon. Moses in all likelihood didn't even exist.


Those laws were inspired by God. Then, the laws were changed and many more things were added, unfortunatly...

Not according to the people who wrote the original. They were mortal space travellers who gave mankind life from their own blood. Thus when people say we are made in the image of god/s it comes down to dna. With that belief we literally are made in the image of god. (we're not all identical which is why 'image of' instead of 'exactly like').

At least do yourself the favour of reading those original texts, instead of completely fixating on the translated version.


The Jews and the unbelievers need to follow those Laws in order to go to Heaven. All of them. Never brake not even one of them.

Wasn't it you who said there were NO rules? You do like to change your mind quickly.


The light blinded him. It couldn't be a comet. Besides, not only Paul, but two guys that were with him heard Jesus when He was speaking.

Sure it could be a comet.... you seen all of them? But ok.... it was aurora borealis, a ufo, a solar flare... whatever. Alternative suggestions. Ok so there were 2 guys that heard jesus speak.. what's the point? Still doesn't mean he's not a con artist.


You, yourself say that I'm wrong and everybody elease is wrong and that you are right, don't you?

When? That aint my style.... instead i prefer to debate, offer alternatives and seek truth. You've already apparently found your truth so everything else must be wrong. Don't try and turn it round on me k. Thnx.


So... can I call you self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole? I guess so... if that's the case

You can call me whatever you want... jesus will forgive you, and personally im not too bothered.


You have no love or compassion or anything like that. You are judges and self righteous people. You have nothing of godly in you.

Ehehe ok. It is attitudes like that that cause the problems in the first place. Imagine all these snobby-nosed christians going round telling everyone they have no love, compassion etc cause they aint christian.... It's you who causes conflicts.


It is you atheists that get bits and pieces of scripture in order to find a "contradiction" in it.

Im not an athiest, but there are many many contradictions in the bible. It's not a case of yellow house, red house as you like to state.


What? Now, you are saying that you know it better then I? That's kinda funky...

I didn't say that.... i prefer the original works anyway.


If you doubt, just go ans study Greek and Hebrew...

I can speak Hebrew. I was adopted into a Jewish family, with many relatives in Israel. However i prefer other styles of 'language' like Sumerian, Egyptian hieroglyphs etc..


There are LOTS of space there for mistakes. A little list of possible mistakes:
- an adjective being mistaken by an adverb and vice-versa
- mistranslation caused by a single accent or lack of it in the word
- mistranslation caused by the interpretation of a case (like mistaking vocative for genitive)

I couldn't agree with you more. I've said time and time again the bible is so heavily translated we can't take it as accurately as you do. As such i prefer the original works. However what i do find amusing, as i've already said and you ignored, is that if it's a 'good' sentence it's the word of god, if it's bad it's mistranslation. You can't pick and choose like that.


No. Just because I say the truth, that doesn't mean I have a high ego.

Lol, you have such a high ego.


Not the WHOLE Bible. And I'm pretty sure you haven't read it all either.

Many times. Now do me the courtesy of reading the sumerian texts.


"God" and "gods" depends on the verse. When it is written about "gods", it is talking about false gods.

Well as quick reference lets look at Genesis. Then [the] Elohim, (Gods), said "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness."

It's plural and should be written that way. It was changed through translations and people finally got attached to a monotheistic belief, although that wasnt how it was originally intended.


It is also written that if you don't keep the Law you will get yourself accursed. Who curse who? It is you that curse yourwself by your own actions. Like if you go and sleep with your neightbour's wife and then he kills you. It was you that made him kill you. You bring destruction upon yourself.

O....k. And if he doesn't kill you or even find out, you've had a nice evening of sex with the neighbours wife.


Is it self righteousness to say that we are not rigtheous unless God is in us, that we depend on Him to be righteous? Or is it self rigtheousness to say that you don't need any God in order for you to be righteous and great?

Well the way you lot make him sound i'd consider myself great for even managing to get by without him. You've got it easy under the protection of god.... me, i got only myself but i have never been happier. It is great being able to rely upon yourself. Maybe you should try it.

Horseman42,


Then my question is why was it right to stone people in the Old Testiment and not in the New? It's still the same God. Why would God issue two different laws? You have to at least admit this is a little confusing. How can God change his mind about things? How do we know he won't change his mind again and make athiesm ok? Why not just tell us what is right from the begining?
God didn't change His mind. He is just pretty damn wiser then us and likes when we actually think about His Law... :D

The Law never changed. Jesus didn't brake the Law. He didn't come to break it, He came to fulfill it. The thing here is that you cannot stone someone unless you have no sin. Then you can judge sinners. But when you are righteous, you actually forgive people because you Love them. So the Law don't really tells us to stone people. The Law brings us the awareness that we are all imperfect, that we are all sinners. In the other hand, Christ brings us the awareness that we are forgiven through Him.

Romans 2:1
"1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."


It's rather ridculous for God to give us free will and then give us Commands to follow. If we don't follow these commands (or at least some) we go to hell. It doesn't feel much like free will if someone is pointing a gun at our heads.
He is not pointing a gun to our heads. First of all, you don't need to follow this Law anymore in order to go to Heaven. The work is already done for you. All that you need is to accept Christ in your heart and then you have it, you go to Heaven.

Second, the Law was created to make us like Him, because the Law is made in His image.


Right so again why was it ok to stone people before and not now?
It wasn't ok. Just read above...


First off I have to ask what's wrong with pigs? So God only exists in the air or perhaps empty spaces? I'm not sure I follow what your saying?
There's nothing wrong with pigs. It is just that God doesn't live in them. And honestly, this is not easy not even for me to understand, so I don't think this discussion on where God is won't go very far. There are way to many variables to take into consideration in this kind of phylosophical discussion.


So others that may not comprehend God does exist is set to go to hell (or away from heaven). What about people who cannot understand like Retarded people and babies? If you really think about it only a select people believe in God others may not know through no fault of their own. Isn't it obvious that people could be "misguided" it's not really that easy of a decision.
I know God since I was baby (or almost that, depending on what you consider a baby). In fact, babies seem to be much closer to God then us (and I have already discussed that in other thread...). Besides, this decision is not that hard. Life becomes easier when you believe that God exists, even if you have blind faith (although I don't encopurage blind faith). I have known God for too long, so I never really experienced not knowing Him, that's why this question is a little hard for me to answer. I hope God someday give me wisdom to answer that, since I don't have the experience.

Raithere,


No, the Jews do not believe in original sin. It is a Christian doctrine based upon Paul's writings (Romans 5:12). It was developed by St. Augustine (354-430) as an explanation as to why bad things happen to good people and was not officially accepted into Christian doctrine until the Council of Orange in 529AD. I might add that Augustine could not read the 'original' Greek and based his doctrine upon the Latin Vulgate, which contains a mistranslation of that passage.
... Where is the "original sin" written?...
Genesis...?
Isn't that the very first book of the Bible, written by the most influencial prophet of the Jews, Moses?


If the laws of the OT never pass away and never fail than how can you conclude that they do not apply to us?
Because the Law is already fulfilled for us. Jesus died on the cross to fulfill the Law for us, He did the work for us.

Romans 8:3-4
"3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. "


I seriously question your interpretation; Jesus was confirming the Commandments here, not saying that they no longer apply. Christ's doctrine was that we need to live by the intent of the laws of the OT rather than simply applying the letter of the law.
Read above. The key thing here is balance. We shouldn't brake the Law all the time, but we shouldn't feel condemn or fear braking the Law either. hen you find a balance between fearing the Law and making it a religious obligation, then you get to the place where Jesus want us to be. He doesn't want us to feel condemned by the Law, neither for us not to follow it, He just want us to follow it naturally. When we get to the point of balance, the Law becomes natural and we are able to follow it.


Please show me where Jesus indicated this.

James 2:8
"8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well."

John 13:35
"35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 15:17
"17 This I command you, that you love one another.

Romans 13:8
"8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law."

1 Thessalonians 4:9
"9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;"

1 John 3:11
"11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; "

Oh... and I finally found this scripture:

1 John 3:23
"23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us."

Now, this one tells us that there is another commandment. However, this one you do it only once. Once you accept Christ in your heart, you are a Christian forever. So He command us to do so, but we don't need to do it repeatedly. That's why I said that is not a rule for Christians, it is just the "rule" to become one.


Again, please provide the relevant evidence.
Romans 6:14
"14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. "

And then the passage continues as I said before, telling us why we shouldn't sin although we are not under the Law anymore...


That's funny, I see two conditions stated yet you have introduced a third. If this is what was meant why wasn't it stated that way? Personally, I find that you are simply making shit up.
John 3:16
"16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "


I tend to find most of what Paul (who stresses faith over works) says to questionable in any case but I would ask you who you believe more Paul or Jesus:

John 9:4
"We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 10:37
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

No, working within the context of the Bible, I have to go with James:

James 2:14-17
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James 2:20
But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Balance. You are not justified by works, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have them. There is a balance to be attained here. You cannot do works by obligation and neither you cannot not do works at all. We are justified by faith, however, faith without works is useless. If you have faith that God forgives you in Christ and you don't accept Christ, your faith became useless and you are not saved anyways. You have faith, but you have to put your faith in action in order for the faith to produce its fruits.


No, Gentiles are anyone who is not Jewish. What is being said is that if one follows the goodness in one's heart one will automatically follow the law, not that the law does not apply or that there is a different law.
You are right. I pondered about it and asked to my pastor. He told me what you have said. We know by instinct what is right and what is wrong. But we do the wrong things anyways, because we are not perfect.

... Where is the "original sin" written?...
Genesis...?
Isn't that the very first book of the Bible, written by the most influencial prophet of the Jews, Moses?

Genesis is a translation from Sumerian texts. Moses may very well have written the equivalent written 1,500 years after it's original but he sure did change it to suit his own style.

SnakeLord,


Genesis is a translation from Sumerian texts. Moses may very well have written the equivalent written 1,500 years after it's original but he sure did change it to suit his own style.
Really? Then where are those "Sumerian texts"?

I could have sworn I provided you those links last week.

Museums all over the world, bookshops all over the world. Seek and ye shall find.

If you mean why isn't it as common as the bible.... well after 2000 years of belief in the bible as 'the word of god' people don't just throw it aside. In fact, just like you, the majority have never read any of it, have never even heard about it. Honestly man just take the time to read some of it..you might even learn some new things.

If you want me to quote some or whatever just ask.

Yeah, alright.... quote some.

Sargon: "... My changeling mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river, which rose not (over) me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water lifted me out as he dipped his e[w]er. Akki the drawer of water, [took me] as his son (and) reared me." (2,279 - 2,334 BCE)

Exodus: "... The woman conceived and gave birth to a son. She saw that he was good and she hid him for three months. She could not hide him any longer, so she took for him a wicker basket and smeared it with clay and pitch, she placed the child into it and placed it among the reeds at the bank of the river..." Then: "...the boy grew up and she brought him to the daughter of Pharaoh and he was a son to her. She called his name Moses, as she said, " For I drew him from the water." (1,250 - 1,350 BCE)

Enuma Elish: "When in the heights heaven was not named. And the Earth beneath did not yet bear a name, and the primeval Apsu, who begat them, and chaos, Tiamet, the mother of them both, Their waters were mingled together, and no field was formed no marsh was to be seen. When of the gods none had been called into being, and none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained. They were created the gods in the midst of heaven."

"... Let me put blood together and bones too, let me set up primeval man: Man shall be his name..."

(At least they say primeval man... The bible makes us believe man was hardly different from modern day man. This at least takes into account the scientific accounts of there being cavemen etc)

"... Nintu mixed clay, with her flesh and blood, they heard the drumbeat forever after, a ghost (soul) came into existence from the god's flesh and she (Nintu) proclaimed it a living sign." Later on "... I myself created (it), my hands have made (it)..."

Genesis says this: "The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life..."

The usage of 'blood' in Sumerian is 'Adom'. The Sumerian for dust/ground as seen in Genesis is Adama. Is it possible that through 1,000+ years of translations, the stories handed down from generation to generation that these words could have ended up as the man you now consider the first man on earth? Adama-Adam....... Gotta admit it does raise a question.

Imagine a being, (mortal creator for this scenario), who makes mankind from his own blood and a mixture of ingredients. Would it be evidential that we are 'made in his image'? As Genesis suggests.

The nephilim from the bible were known as the Anunnaki in Sumerian....

In Numbers 13:33 it says: "There we saw the Nephilim, the children of Anak.."

In the story of Ziusudra, (Noah), the nephilim, (Anunnaki), are present.

"... Nintu was wailing... They are washed up, like a raft on a bank. They are washed up like a raft on a bank in open country! I have seen and wept over them! Shall I (ever) finish weeping over them?"

They were watching the destruction from the mountain tops... You see unlike Noah, the Ziusudra story didn't involve the drowning of the entire planet and all on it. It was the lowlands. The banks of the Euphrates popped. Ziusudra was caught on a barge with some goats, cows etc.... Some people made it to the highlands but he was stuck and sailed off until he came to sea where 'all the horizon was water'. Very interesting story it is... You can buy a book about it here (http://www.flood-myth.com/) and read some more about it.

Funnily enough nephilim means 'those who have fallen down from above'. The Anunnaki means 'those who from heaven to earth came'.

After Ziusudra landed he built a fire to cook and "... the gods smelt the fragrance, the gods smelt the pleasant fragrance.."

Genesis8:21 "The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma..."

Ziusudra was saved by a raven, in the bible it was a dove.

The bible states Abraham was from Ur, a Sumerian city. In Genesis 22:13 "And Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns..." He sacrificed that instead of his son...

On an archaelogical dig in a temple in Ur, they found this: Here (http://www.neverlands.org/newspaper/ram.jpg)

That is now on display in a museum in philadelphia.

There are so many influences and things we can find if we look to the Sumerians. This is just a teeny weeny part of it. Of course more will be harder to get now they're all bombing iraq :\

Now let's have a quick look at words:

E-Din- means House of purity/righteousness... Garden of the house of purity?? Sounds interesting....

The use and meaning of Din can be seen in modern language- Moujahadin is arabic for a righteous warrior, paladin is righteous/pure champion etc..

The Sumerian god Utu (meaning the [visible] sun) is the same as Shamash in Akkadian. The god name Shamash is the same as the Hebrew word for the sun, Shemesh.

Dumuzi - Sumerian god, used for name of Hebrew month as Tammuz. Crying for Tammuz is mentioned in Bible, Ezekiel 8:12. They were not crying for the name of a month. They were crying in remembrance of Dumuzi the husband of Inanna who was killed and not able to be revived.

There's so many other influences that should be looked at. You can get History Begins at Sumer, by Samuel Noah Kramer.

Hope this was of some enlightenment or help.

SnakeLord,


"... Nintu mixed clay, with her flesh and blood, they heard the drumbeat forever after, a ghost (soul) came into existence from the god's flesh and she (Nintu) proclaimed it a living sign." Later on "... I myself created (it), my hands have made (it)..."

Genesis says this: "The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life..."

There is a key difference there. God gave us both soul and Spirit, while in the other thing there (whatever you call it) Nintu gave man only a soul.


The usage of 'blood' in Sumerian is 'Adom'. The Sumerian for dust/ground as seen in Genesis is Adama. Is it possible that through 1,000+ years of translations, the stories handed down from generation to generation that these words could have ended up as the man you now consider the first man on earth? Adama-Adam....... Gotta admit it does raise a question.
Well... those are just speculations though. All languages have some words that match and that are similar.


The bible states Abraham was from Ur, a Sumerian city. In Genesis 22:13 "And Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns..." He sacrificed that instead of his son...
He was going to sacrifice his son. However, God stopped him before he did it and blessed Abraham for trusting Him.


E-Din- means House of purity/righteousness... Garden of the house of purity?? Sounds interesting....
Makes sense...:p


The Sumerian god Utu (meaning the [visible] sun) is the same as Shamash in Akkadian. The god name Shamash is the same as the Hebrew word for the sun, Shemesh.

Dumuzi - Sumerian god, used for name of Hebrew month as Tammuz. Crying for Tammuz is mentioned in Bible, Ezekiel 8:12. They were not crying for the name of a month. They were crying in remembrance of Dumuzi the husband of Inanna who was killed and not able to be revived.
The Hebrews always worshiped many gods despite the fact that God told them not to. Those gods they created and other gods that many civilizations created are referred in the Bible. People used to make those gods. They would make an idol and worship it. They are false gods. That's the reason why God says "I'm the living God" and so on. There is reference for false gods even in the New Testament, particularly in Acts:

Acts 17:22-28
"22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' "

Another reference...:

Acts 19:24-28
"24 For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, was bringing no little business to the craftsmen;
25 these he gathered together with the workmen of similar trades, and said, "Men, you know that our prosperity depends upon this business.
26 "You see and hear that not only in Ephesus, but in almost all of Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable number of people, saying that gods made with hands are no gods at all.
27 "Not only is there danger that this trade of ours fall into disrepute, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis be regarded as worthless and that she whom all of Asia and the world worship will even be dethroned from her magnificence."
28 When they heard this and were filled with rage, they began crying out, saying, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!" "


Ancient civilization loved to worship gods. Only Jews worshiped only one God, and even them had a hard time doing so. All those stories of gods are just false gods made by human hands and imagination. God never liked that because He knew that people would get confused and deceived.

:confused:
So you are like heaven's ambassador or something?

TruthSeeker,


The thing here is that you cannot stone someone unless you have no sin.

It says in Leviticus 24.23

QUOTE]Moses spoke thus to the people of Israel; and they took the blasphemer outside the, and stoned him to death. The people of Israel did as the LORD had commanded Moses.[/QUOTE]

Right so you will have be believe the people that are writen about in the passage above all have no sin? I thought not too long ago in the chapter they were all sinners? This seams like a contradiction.


He is not pointing a gun to our heads. First of all, you don't need to follow this Law anymore in order to go to Heaven. The work is already done for you. All that you need is to accept Christ in your heart and then you have it, you go to Heaven.

Right so now the choice is to accept Christ in your heart or not. If we don't then we go to hell. So therefore God is giving us the choice to choose (because we have free will) and then punishing us if we make the wrong decision. This is what I meant that it seams like we have a gun to our heads.


There's nothing wrong with pigs. It is just that God doesn't live in them. And honestly, this is not easy not even for me to understand, so I don't think this discussion on where God is won't go very far.

Right that's why I choose to believe he's everywhere. You have to agree at least that he can be anywhere he chooses. I'll drop the subject then.


Besides, this decision is not that hard. Life becomes easier when you believe that God exists, even if you have blind faith (although I don't encopurage blind faith).

Right I agree with you blind faith is never a good idea. :)
It is a very difficult decision how can you say it's not? If a child for example is brought up in China and becomes a devote Buhhdist making a transition over to Christianity would be very, very difficult. Can you not see this?


I know God since I was baby (or almost that, depending on what you consider a baby). In fact, babies seem to be much closer to God then us (and I have already discussed that in other thread...).

Honestly I was thinking more in the terms of the patients I look after at work. Almost all are diagnosed as being MR (mentally retarded). Some of the things they do to themselves or to others are very "sinful". However they all lack the capacity to understand their behaviour, or to except Jesus into their life as you put it earlier. Do they go to heaven or hell apon death?


Horseman42

Dr Lou Natic,


So you are like heaven's ambassador or something?
Huuum... indeed, that's a nice comparison. I've heard that before at church but I never though through this... Why are you asking that?

I think he was poking fun at you.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the laws of the OT never pass away and never fail than how can you conclude that they do not apply to us?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Truthseaker
Because the Law is already fulfilled for us. Jesus died on the cross to fulfill the Law for us, He did the work for us

====================
====================


No, No, No.........Raithere is right on this one.......

He said:
I seriously question your interpretation; Jesus was confirming the Commandments here, not saying that they no longer apply. Christ's doctrine was that we need to live by the intent of the laws of the OT rather than simply applying the letter of the law.
---------

Jesus didn't come to do away with any of the law, He died for our sins to cover for our mistakes as we strugle and fight , fall and get up again, in the maturing from spirt babes when were born again, untill the maturity of the Christ within us... having our senses exercised in the discernment of good and evil, grown up into the image of the stature of a perfect man, forwit the adoption, unto the manifestation of the Sons of god.
We are his Bride and we are to bring forth Christ in us.
The kingdom of heaven is at hand, and the violent TAKE IT BY FORCE...thats you and I...
There is much we have to overcome in this age.
He says in Rev 3rd chapter...To him that overcomes I will give ect.....
He can't push you through a 6 inch pipe, and pull you out the other end and then say you overcame, you didn't overcome anything....
He leaves a measure of suffering, and obediance to be learned for the development of our character, which is more valuble than fine gold.
He said: Don't you know the saints shall judge the angels.
And we need to have the character of God molded in us.

God said I give you the land (to the Israelites), now you go and take it....and they had to fight those giants for every inch of ground they took.
Same today. It was a type then for our instruction.

Jesus came to magnify the law, and write it on the tables of the hearts of His people, who will worship Him today in spirit and truth.
He opened it up to mean the intent of the law, not just the letter....and to be done "from your heart" without being told you have to....

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
... Where is the "original sin" written?...
Genesis...?
Isn't that the very first book of the Bible, written by the most influencial prophet of the Jews, Moses? Really? Then please show the passage to me. The term "original sin" is not used once in the Bible. God did indeed punish all of us by casting 'us' out of the Garden of Eden and so forth but there is no mention of sin being automatically assigned to us for one of our ancestors actions.


Romans 8:3-4
"3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."This is once again Paul speaking and so I question it's validity in any case but I still see no mention of original sin. What I do see is the statement that the flesh is weak, therefore God sent his son as an offering; to pay the price of redemption for us. It was not meant as a 'Get out of jail free' card.


He doesn't want us to feel condemned by the Law, neither for us not to follow it, He just want us to follow it naturally. When we get to the point of balance, the Law becomes natural and we are able to follow it.I think you're close here. I think what he was saying is that because the flesh is weak we are, most likely, going to fail and break the law but even if we do we can be forgiven and redeemed. That is not the same thing as saying that the laws no longer apply.


James 2:8
"8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well."I think that this was the most important lesson he taught; that if one always acts in love one will be following the law. Further, he was saying that those who follow the letter of the law, yet are against it in their hearts, are hypocrites and are actually breaking the law. As he said (and I'm paraphrasing here), even if you do not fuck your neighbors wife, if you walk around every day lusting after her you are still breaking the law. He was saying that the law is about more than one's actions, it involves one's mind and heart... but he was not saying that it was only about the mind and heart.


John 3:23
"23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us."Please note that these are John's words (or so we assume). What Jesus said was, "John 15:12
"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."

Jesus never said, "Believe in me or die/burn in Hell." That was added to the doctine much later on. What he did say was; Believe in me and in what I say, follow the commandments with your heart, and love each other as I love you and you will find Heaven/be rewarded/have eternal life.


And then the passage continues as I said before, telling us why we shouldn't sin although we are not under the Law anymore.Again, please show me where Jesus says we do not have to follow the law?


You are not justified by works, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have them. There is a balance to be attained here. You cannot do works by obligation and neither you cannot not do works at all. We are justified by faith, however, faith without works is useless. If you have faith that God forgives you in Christ and you don't accept Christ, your faith became useless and you are not saved anyways. You have faith, but you have to put your faith in action in order for the faith to produce its fruits.There is a crucial issue here for Christians and it is a source of quite some disagreement, though I think you have resolved it fairly well. It seems that the original apostles and Paul had some disagreements. Paul tends to stress faith while the others tend to stress works/law. One of the primary reasons for this is that Paul was much more involved with converting gentiles. And one of the gentiles' main issues with conversion was circumcision. This is easy enough to understand; "Yea, that all sounds great. How do I join? (long pause) I have to do what?" Paul therefore took the position that circumcision was not mandatory.

Thus we have:

Romans 2:26
So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Despite the fact that Jesus pointed out that circumcision was more important than 'technically' keeping the Sabbath:

John 7:23
"If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?"

~Raithere

(edited for corrections)

There is a key difference there. God gave us both soul and Spirit, while in the other thing there (whatever you call it) Nintu gave man only a soul.

I quoted three lines..... don't be so quick to jump to conclusion. However, either way you're not in a position to label this as any less valid than your story. And like i said considering there's a gap of over a millennium between these two many changes in story would occur.


Well... those are just speculations though. All languages have some words that match and that are similar.

For a time something of this nature will always come across as speculation. You have two choices: Search, and find the answer or just instantly dismiss it.


He was going to sacrifice his son. However, God stopped him before he did it and blessed Abraham for trusting Him.

Uhhh yeah im aware of that, but that's irrelevant to what i was saying.


Makes sense...

And the gods put man to work in the gardens of their 'house of purity' and thus the story was handed down to the bible authors, (badly translated of course).


The Hebrews always worshiped many gods despite the fact that God told them not to. Those gods they created and other gods that many civilizations created are referred in the Bible. People used to make those gods. They would make an idol and worship it. They are false gods. That's the reason why God says "I'm the living God" and so on. There is reference for false gods even in the New Testament, particularly in Acts:

Well, that's your 'belief'. You don't know God told them anything... you only have a book to rely on, in which case it still has no more validity than sumerian texts, ancient indian texts or anything else. You cannot deny the possibility of these other gods simply because you don't know. Ok you heard a voice- it doesn't mean anything- many religious Sumerians heard voices and saw miracles, many religious people from every different belief in the world hear voices and see miracles. It's not an answer to anything. It was God himself who several times throughout the bible refers in plural. "Let us create man in our image, our likeness". He wouldn't say that if he was the only one. He'd say.. "Let me create man in my image, my likeness." If we can attribute the plural terms as either bad translation or handed down Sumerian stories then we need to consider falseness in every sentence thereafter. Until we work out exactly what is translated and from where, what has been changed by 'chinese whispers', what's metaphor etc we cannot claim to know the truth of anything.


Ancient civilization loved to worship gods. Only Jews worshiped only one God, and even them had a hard time doing so.

1 god or a hundred gods is irrelevant. You are no different to ancient people. You adopt their beliefs of worship when it remains there might not even be a god- only thing that states there is are documents of people thousands of years ago who had no science. They did not understand many of the things we now take for granted. You keep yourself in line with shepherds of old because being a modern man is what.... too difficult?


All those stories of gods are just false gods made by human hands and imagination.

Easy as that heh?


God never liked that because He knew that people would get confused and deceived

This story of god is just a false god made by human hands and imagination.

I have always been an open searching 'agnostic'. Simply being on this forum listening to you people is turning me further away from the possibility of there being a god.

TheVisitor,


I seriously question your interpretation; Jesus was confirming the Commandments here, not saying that they no longer apply. Christ's doctrine was that we need to live by the intent of the laws of the OT rather than simply applying the letter of the law.
It was for freedom that He set us free. He set us free from the Law of sin and death. That doesn't mean that we should keep sinning. What I'm saying here is that there is no condemnation fro those who are in Christ Jesus. You may fall, but you are forgiven, because He died for our sins, and His Love covers the multitude of our sins.


The kingdom of heaven is at hand, and the violent TAKE IT BY FORCE...thats you and I...
Well... it is not exactly "violence". It is strenght, perseverance and power, but not exactly "violence"...


He says in Rev 3rd chapter...To him that overcomes I will give ect.....
He can't push you through a 6 inch pipe, and pull you out the other end and then say you overcame, you didn't overcome anything....

God's Love for us have overcomed our sins. Love covers a multitude of sins. Whoever believes in the name of His Son shall be saved. The key is faith. We are saved through faith.


God said I give you the land (to the Israelites), now you go and take it....and they had to fight those giants for every inch of ground they took.
Faith wothout works is deads by itself.


He opened it up to mean the intent of the law, not just the letter....and to be done "from your heart" without being told you have to....
I said that too... Have you ever read all that I said?


...:eek:
I don't even quote anymore... I just throw the scriptures in without even saying where they are... :p

Raithere,


Really? Then please show the passage to me. The term "original sin" is not used once in the Bible. God did indeed punish all of us by casting 'us' out of the Garden of Eden and so forth but there is no mention of sin being automatically assigned to us for one of our ancestors actions.
There is no "original sin" in the Bible. That's why I've put it in quotation marks...

And God didn't punish us. We went against His Word and we had to leave. Besides, what we receive is an inheritance of the nature of sin. We are predisposed to sin because of that first sin. It is not that that sin is assigned to us, it is just that sin passes from generation to generation.


This is once again Paul speaking and so I question it's validity in any case but I still see no mention of original sin. What I do see is the statement that the flesh is weak, therefore God sent his son as an offering; to pay the price of redemption for us. It was not meant as a 'Get out of jail free' card.
Whoever accepts the free gift of God is granted eternal life. Original sin... I already answered that.


I think you're close here. I think what he was saying is that because the flesh is weak we are, most likely, going to fail and break the law but even if we do we can be forgiven and redeemed. That is not the same thing as saying that the laws no longer apply.
I didn't say the Law doesn't apply anymore, I just said that we are not under it, subjected to it.

Btw... you seem to know the Word quite well... :eek: I wonder why...


I think that this was the most important lesson he taught; that if one always acts in love one will be following the law. Further, he was saying that those who follow the letter of the law, yet are against it in their hearts, are hypocrites and are actually breaking the law. As he said (and I'm paraphrasing here), even if you do not fuck your neighbors wife, if you walk around every day lusting after her you are still breaking the law. He was saying that the law is about more than one's actions, it involves one's mind and heart... but he was not saying that it was only about the mind and heart.
I agree with that.


Please note that these are John's words (or so we assume). What Jesus said was, "John 15:12
"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."

Jesus never said, "Believe in me or die/burn in Hell." That was added to the doctine much later on. What he did say was; Believe in me and in what I say, follow the commandments with your heart, and love each other as I love you and you will find Heaven/be rewarded/have eternal life.
I used to believe that too. However:

Mark 16:16-18
"16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." "

Also, it is written that whoever believe that He is raised from the dead shall be saved.


Again, please show me where Jesus says we do not have to follow the law?
He never tells us NOT ot follow the Law, He only tells us that we are free from it.

Romans 6:14
"14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. "

Romans 8:2
"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. "

THOSE are the scriptures which I'm speaking about.


There is a crucial issue here for Christians and it is a source of quite some disagreement, though I think you have resolved it fairly well. It seems that the original apostles and Paul had some disagreements. Paul tends to stress faith while the others tend to stress works/law. One of the primary reasons for this is that Paul was much more involved with converting gentiles. And one of the gentiles' main issues with conversion was circumcision. This is easy enough to understand; "Yea, that all sounds great. How do I join? (long pause) I have to do what?" Paul therefore took the position that circumcision was not mandatory.
Paul never disagreed with the other apostles. They speak of the same thing, though with their own personality. If you read the four golspels and someone reads a scripture for you from one of the, you can probably recognize who wrote it! That doesn't mean that they speak something different, that just means they use different words.

John, James and Peter don't just stress works and law. They also talk about faith:

James 2:17
"17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. "

James 1:6
"6 But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind."

James 5:14-15
"14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. "

1 Peter 1:6-9
"6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. "

1 John 5:4
"4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. "

Those are just some examples. The last one in John stress A LOT the importance of faith. The scripture of Peter says that without faith, we can't even be saved. So they also stress faith as Paul does.


Despite the fact that Jesus pointed out that circumcision was more important than 'technically' keeping the Sabbath:

John 7:23
"If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?"
Before His death, that was the only way to save a person, or actually, TRY to save someone, since that person had to keep the Law. But after Jesus died and was raised from the dead; now, in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means nothing, but faith working through Love.

SnakeLord,

Happy 200 posts... :p


I quoted three lines..... don't be so quick to jump to conclusion. However, either way you're not in a position to label this as any less valid than your story. And like i said considering there's a gap of over a millennium between these two many changes in story would occur.
I was just pointing out the differences...


And the gods put man to work in the gardens of their 'house of purity' and thus the story was handed down to the bible authors, (badly translated of course).
Not that. What made sense was how the words are bulit...:bugeye:


1 god or a hundred gods is irrelevant. You are no different to ancient people. You adopt their beliefs of worship when it remains there might not even be a god- only thing that states there is are documents of people thousands of years ago who had no science. They did not understand many of the things we now take for granted. You keep yourself in line with shepherds of old because being a modern man is what.... too difficult?
Of course there IS relevance wheter is only one god or hundreds....
Being a modern man is not difficult. It is just that what is written in the Bible is very helpful. Like faith working trough Love, let all things be done in Love and faith without works is dead by itself. There is wisdom in those words. They basically say that if you don't believe you can do something, you are already defeated. They also say that if we believe we can do something and just sit down and don't do it, it won't happen by itself. Those things are good guidelines for living a healthy, happy and successful life.


Easy as that heh?
Well yeah...
...Are you Canadian...? :p


I have always been an open searching 'agnostic'. Simply being on this forum listening to you people is turning me further away from the possibility of there being a god.
And why? Have you looked for the evidence I gave you?

TruthSeeker-

And God didn't punish us. We went against His Word and we had to leave. Besides, what we receive is an inheritance of the nature of sin. We are predisposed to sin because of that first sin. It is not that that sin is assigned to us, it is just that sin passes from generation to generation.

"We" didnt go against anything, I love this particular line of thought- Punish many for the actions of few. That rational is the kind that makes people think all muslims are to blame for the terrorist's actions. Genes pass from generation to generation not sin. I thought one of the messages of religion is that people are responsible for their actions and thus they are the ones who either sin or do not sin. Others are not pinned with something they had no say in. Its called the responsible party.

WE didnt do any such thing. So does God say "hey look...I know each and every one of you would have done the exact same, therefore you will get no chance to live free from sin, Sorry they ruined it for all of you, too bad."

Sorry for the tone, a little brash but the point remains the same. Really though, that idea is such a sham, forgiveness? where does that fit in? Dont we get second chances with God? How does the situation with adam and Eve differ from any other people. Why was this particular instance of such importance that a failure to comply would have a chain reaction lasting throughout generations of humanity. If a current human being goes against God the reprecussions are no where near as extreme and dare I say......Unfair?

Happy 200 posts...

Oooooooh, do i get a cake or something?! Oh nm this'll do: :m: :D

Don't argue! My mother always told me to have my vegetables!!


Not that. What made sense was how the words are bulit...

Boooo


Of course there IS relevance wheter is only one god or hundreds....

Well... i really don't think so. Take for instance the people born way way before Jesus on the other side of the world that believed in a god/gods. I think the very fact they believed in an almighty is good enough- or should be good enough for your god. They searched as well as you have and to deny them would be a tad malicious. Ok, deny us foolish, sinning mofo non-believers but the poor old people of ancient times?? They're harmless.


Being a modern man is not difficult. It is just that what is written in the Bible is very helpful. Like faith working trough Love, let all things be done in Love and faith without works is dead by itself. There is wisdom in those words. They basically say that if you don't believe you can do something, you are already defeated. They also say that if we believe we can do something and just sit down and don't do it, it won't happen by itself. Those things are good guidelines for living a healthy, happy and successful life.

Ok a nice black book of moralistic behaviour. That is nice and helpful however most people do have the ability to work out good morals and sense of direction without the need for that book. If you do need a book to guide you whats wrong with I-Ching? People always come to a stage where they need guidance. Some choose religion, some choose tarot, some choose psychiatrists. None of them are wrong. If it helps so be it. BUT!! from a scientific and learning perspective things such as god/tarot/star signs are somewhat debateable because they cannot be proven. It may very well help you like a shrink does but science is more interested in the facts instead of the heresay. Nothing is to suggest they aren't real but nothing is to suggest they are. Some people are willing to just have 'faith'. Some of us require more. Can you, can your god just condemn people for that? Again that would be somewhat malicious.


Well yeah...
...Are you Canadian...?

Nope. English. However I might have been Canadian in a past life-who knows.


And why? Have you looked for the evidence I gave you?

I look at everything. I assume you and god are happy with me looking at evidence and looking for answers? If so how can anyone condemn me if i don't manage to find those answers in my lifetime? The evidence i've seen through my entire life does not and cannot show proof of a god. I will not just make that 'leap of faith'. I am committed to more than that- and making the most of my life. Simple acceptance is not an option.

MooseKnuckle,


"We" didnt go against anything, I love this particular line of thought- Punish many for the actions of few. That rational is the kind that makes people think all muslims are to blame for the terrorist's actions. Genes pass from generation to generation not sin. I thought one of the messages of religion is that people are responsible for their actions and thus they are the ones who either sin or do not sin. Others are not pinned with something they had no say in. Its called the responsible party.
Balance is important. I don't say that sin pass from generation to generation so you are guilty of it. Neither I say that we are not responsible for our actions. What I say is that because of what was done in the past, the probability of us to sin is much greater.


WE didnt do any such thing. So does God say "hey look...I know each and every one of you would have done the exact same, therefore you will get no chance to live free from sin, Sorry they ruined it for all of you, too bad."
No, He does the exact opposite. He gives you a new hope through Christ so that you may be saved. Then, when you ask Him for forgiveness He will tell you that there is nothing to be forgiven of, that all sins are already forgiven. If you can live a perfect life without sinning, then you don't need Christ. Can you live a perfect life?


Sorry for the tone, a little brash but the point remains the same. Really though, that idea is such a sham, forgiveness? where does that fit in? Dont we get second chances with God? How does the situation with adam and Eve differ from any other people. Why was this particular instance of such importance that a failure to comply would have a chain reaction lasting throughout generations of humanity. If a current human being goes against God the reprecussions are no where near as extreme and dare I say......Unfair?
He GAVE us a second chance. He gave up His Son so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Our sins are already forgiven. Those that we did in the past and those that we will do in the future. ALL forgiven, as long as we accept this forgiveness.

SnakeLord,


Don't argue! My mother always told me to have my vegetables!!
Why would I argue?


Boooo
Interesting answer...


Well... i really don't think so. Take for instance the people born way way before Jesus on the other side of the world that believed in a god/gods. I think the very fact they believed in an almighty is good enough- or should be good enough for your god. They searched as well as you have and to deny them would be a tad malicious. Ok, deny us foolish, sinning mofo non-believers but the poor old people of ancient times?? They're harmless.
Acts 17:23
"23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. "

They did seek God, they just didn't know where to find Him. God sent Christ so that everyone could have the opportunity to be saved. This is not like God only letting those who know Him go into Heaven, it is just that those that don't know Him don't know where to find Heaven, that's all.


Ok a nice black book of moralistic behaviour. That is nice and helpful however most people do have the ability to work out good morals and sense of direction without the need for that book. If you do need a book to guide you whats wrong with I-Ching? People always come to a stage where they need guidance. Some choose religion, some choose tarot, some choose psychiatrists. None of them are wrong. If it helps so be it. BUT!! from a scientific and learning perspective things such as god/tarot/star signs are somewhat debateable because they cannot be proven. It may very well help you like a shrink does but science is more interested in the facts instead of the heresay. Nothing is to suggest they aren't real but nothing is to suggest they are. Some people are willing to just have 'faith'. Some of us require more. Can you, can your god just condemn people for that? Again that would be somewhat malicious.
It seems you are so used with blind faith that you don't understand the significance of real faith. Real faith is the power that flow through us in order to do things. You need faith even to turn on the computer. If you have the comptuer and know how to turn it on, you can have faith that when you press the button, it will turn on. However, if you don't know that by pressing the button it will turn on, then you cannot have faith that it will turn on. In the other hand, if you know it can be turned on and have faith in it, but you don't act in that faith to turn it on, it won't be turned on all by itself. So you see...:
Wisdom----leads to---->Faith----leads to--->Works


Nope. English. However I might have been Canadian in a past life-who knows.
... o-k....


I look at everything. I assume you and god are happy with me looking at evidence and looking for answers? If so how can anyone condemn me if i don't manage to find those answers in my lifetime? The evidence i've seen through my entire life does not and cannot show proof of a god. I will not just make that 'leap of faith'. I am committed to more than that- and making the most of my life. Simple acceptance is not an option.
There is no condemnation. The thing is that if you don't know God, you cannot simply be in His presence after this life.

Did you go to any conference at all, as I suggested you too?

TruthSeeker-

Thanks for the to the point answers

He gave up His Son so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Why did he need to give up his son so we could have eternal life?

Why would I argue?

It was English humour, don't worry about it.


They did seek God, they just didn't know where to find Him. God sent Christ so that everyone could have the opportunity to be saved. This is not like God only letting those who know Him go into Heaven, it is just that those that don't know Him don't know where to find Heaven, that's all.

They did seek god they just didn't know where to find him..... Ok firstly what's to say they didn't find god? If alive they would probably guarantee you they did, just like you do now. You're hardly in a position to say they're wrong, or that their god is false. Who's to say your god is real and odin, (whoever/whatever), is a fake? You cannot make that assumption. Secondly if they didn't find him it's because they weren't shown. As such they can be held at no fault if they failed.

God sent Christ so that everyone could have the opportunity to be saved.... Except anyone who was alive before the arrival of jesus and believed in a different god, or as you put it: didn't find him.

This is not like God only letting those who know Him go into Heaven ............. Ok, it's not?

it is just that those that don't know Him don't know where to find Heaven ........... Lol. All boils down to the same thing.


It seems you are so used with blind faith that you don't understand the significance of real faith.

Eh? oh you have 'real' faith compared to everyone else who just has 'blind' faith. I see now. But you've known yours was real since you were three and heard voices so it must be right? You're hardly in a position to make such a baseless assumption. "Mine is real, others are fake" <------- again more pompous self righteous attitude that is at the very core of religion.


Real faith is the power that flow through us in order to do things. You need faith even to turn on the computer. If you have the comptuer and know how to turn it on, you can have faith that when you press the button, it will turn on. However, if you don't know that by pressing the button it will turn on, then you cannot have faith that it will turn on. In the other hand, if you know it can be turned on and have faith in it, but you don't act in that faith to turn it on, it won't be turned on all by itself. So you see...:
Wisdom----leads to---->Faith----leads to--->Works

*snore* That's the best you can do? To attempt to symbolise some sort of link between believing in an invisible all powerful entity offering eternal life to some pathetic little creatures he created and turning a computer on?? Keep it in the right frame of discussion please.

More to the point would be

Faith in a life creating all powerful being who wrote a book, had a son who died for all of mankind, and if we love him and his son we get eternal life or....

Faith in our tarot cards telling us we're gonna be rich by the end of the week, dead by the end of the month and pregnant by next year. or maybe.....

Faith that in our eternal life we'll sail off into heaven, our organs will be replaced and we will sit with the sun god Ra...

All of these are nothing more than blind ideas, hopes and desires that stem from the root of insecurity. It's not to say they're false- but there is absolutely nothing to say they're true either. It might very well be your own personal little truth but it is by no means 'real' truth. It is pure faith- you might consider your faith as real against other faiths but i can guarantee you they're all the same which is: Something that requires absolutely no proof or credible evidence.

So, going back to my post i will restate some of us require more than your own brains little assumption of what is real and what isn't. As such we will not just accept something on 'blind' faith or your translated version: 'real' faith.

Lack of wisdom----leads to---->Faith----leads to---->Self righteousness.


There is no condemnation

ok.....


The thing is that if you don't know God, you cannot simply be in His presence after this life.

Lol. That's being condemned. If we weren't comdemned i'm sure god would let us get to know him once we'd already died.

MooseKnuckle,


Why did he need to give up his son so we could have eternal life?
Because everyone sins, and the wages of sin is death.

SnakeLord,


Ok firstly what's to say they didn't find god? If alive they would probably guarantee you they did, just like you do now. You're hardly in a position to say they're wrong, or that their god is false. Who's to say your god is real and odin, (whoever/whatever), is a fake? You cannot make that assumption. Secondly if they didn't find him it's because they weren't shown. As such they can be held at no fault if they failed.
The other gods are made just by hands. They are simply objects. But God is pretty alive...


Except anyone who was alive before the arrival of jesus and believed in a different god, or as you put it: didn't find him.
God spoke to many people before Jesus. And wasn't just the Jews.


Eh? oh you have 'real' faith compared to everyone else who just has 'blind' faith. I see now. But you've known yours was real since you were three and heard voices so it must be right? You're hardly in a position to make such a baseless assumption. "Mine is real, others are fake" <------- again more pompous self righteous attitude that is at the very core of religion.
First of all this kind of faith I have is not just mine, many people have. Second, "blind faith" is the faith that simply says soemthing and do nothing about it, while "real faith" goes there and accomplish it.


*snore* That's the best you can do? To attempt to symbolise some sort of link between believing in an invisible all powerful entity offering eternal life to some pathetic little creatures he created and turning a computer on?? Keep it in the right frame of discussion please.
Yes, it is that simple.


All of these are nothing more than blind ideas, hopes and desires that stem from the root of insecurity. It's not to say they're false- but there is absolutely nothing to say they're true either. It might very well be your own personal little truth but it is by no means 'real' truth. It is pure faith- you might consider your faith as real against other faiths but i can guarantee you they're all the same which is: Something that requires absolutely no proof or credible evidence.
I'm not insecure. I just found something that you haven't that's all.


So, going back to my post i will restate some of us require more than your own brains little assumption of what is real and what isn't. As such we will not just accept something on 'blind' faith or your translated version: 'real' faith.
No assumptions at all... It is pretty real...


Lol. That's being condemned. If we weren't comdemned i'm sure god would let us get to know him once we'd already died.
No. Because He would appear rigth in front of you and you would probably not believe at all.

The other gods are made just by hands. They are simply objects. But God is pretty alive...

They say exactly the same about yours. Yours is just some pages in a book made by hands. Simply an object. Their god is pretty alive.

Neither of you convinces me, and neither of you has more substance than the other.


God spoke to many people before Jesus. And wasn't just the Jews.

Many gods spoke to many people and still do. What's your point? The fact remains no belief in a god/gods holds more credibility over any of the others.


First of all this kind of faith I have is not just mine, many people have. Second, "blind faith" is the faith that simply says soemthing and do nothing about it, while "real faith" goes there and accomplish it.

O...k. Many people have faith in other things.... Again yours holds no more credibility over theirs. As for accomplishing... Tell me what you've accomplished. Then tell me how that would be any more credible than the same accomplishment that has been performed by every different faith on the planet.


Yes, it is that simple.

To a simple mind perhaps.


I'm not insecure.

Yes you are. Everyone is.


I just found something that you haven't that's all

Yeah you have..... a faith in something without anything to suggest it as being real. I've found something you haven't aswell. It's called open mindedness. My lifes motto is 'might be, might not be'- yours is: 'im right.' As proof of this:


No assumptions at all... It is pretty real...

However i do wonder why you say 'pretty' real.... does that signify not really real or what? Or your subconcious mind is fighting you to regain control over your slavery into blind faith?


No. Because He would appear rigth in front of you and you would probably not believe at all.

I don't neccessarily believe in vampires but if i saw one i'd run for the garlic. Like i said my life's motto is 'might be, might not' and as such i consider anything possible and am always prepared to be enlightened when the truth comes to pass. That's what an open mind is.

TruthSeeker,


There is no condemnation. The thing is that if you don't know God, you cannot simply be in His presence after this life.

Right so if I don't believe god exists and don't come to know him I cannot go to "heaven" when I die. Then why doesn't God just appear and prove to me that he exists? Surely and all-powerful, being that wants everyone to find him and come to heaven with him when they die would be able to prove his existance.

Surely he must know (as he's all-knowing) what it would take to prove to a simple mortal like myself of his existance. You cannot say this has happened as there are many people who don't believe in God.

I understand SnakeLord has been keeping you busy, but I was wondering when you were getting around to responding to my last post.


Horseman42

Horseman42,

Luke 16:19-31
"19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

If God would appear right in from of you, I'm pretty sure you would come up with a "logical" explanation...

Because everyone sins, and the wages of sin is death.

I thought that we can confess our sins and we will be forgiven?


31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

So Moses and the Prophets were supposedly more convincing than evidence? Look at this from another point of view- Science- a scientist goes around telling everyone of this remarkable new theory that he devised. Now this theory was pretty remarkable, so it was only logical that people wanted more than mere testimony to be convinced of its legitamacy. The scientist should not admit defeat and cry about how nobody believes him, instead he should get some common sense and prove how he was correct, this could be done through mathematical equations and the like. Still many people would remain skeptical, as they should be, so then the Scientist decides to conduct some experiments. The scientist would not give up after just stating his theory and proclaiming its validity and say "well these stupid people have no idea" so ill leave them in the dark and keep the strategic information to myself because they upset me by not just blindly accepting what I say to be correct.

How can you blame people for wanting evidence? A claim NEEDS to be supported by evidence, otherwise it is still speculation.

SnakeLord,


They say exactly the same about yours. Yours is just some pages in a book made by hands. Simply an object. Their god is pretty alive.
Well... not really...


O...k. Many people have faith in other things.... Again yours holds no more credibility over theirs. As for accomplishing... Tell me what you've accomplished. Then tell me how that would be any more credible than the same accomplishment that has been performed by every different faith on the planet.
Not much really... I'm just 19 years old and I don't have many interests...


However i do wonder why you say 'pretty' real.... does that signify not really real or what? Or your subconcious mind is fighting you to regain control over your slavery into blind faith?
"Pretty" means "very". Just common everyday language...

MooseKnuckle,


I thought that we can confess our sins and we will be forgiven?
Yeah, but then you sin again and you need to be forgiven again, unless you have accepted Christ in your heart. If you don't understand that, you migh have some difficulty understanding me. Better study more and then come back...

Yeah, but then you sin again and you need to be forgiven again, unless you have accepted Christ in your heart. If you don't understand that, you migh have some difficulty understanding me. Better study more and then come back...

I understand what you are saying, dont worry its not quantum mechanics.......but what I don't understand is why does God only forgive the religious? Has does asking for forgiveness have any bearing on the action itself. A sin is a sin? is it not? Why does it matter if you accept Jesus? Arent you as deservant of the consequence as the other, non christian person. A crime is a crime, but somehow his "favorites" get better treatment for simply accepting Jesus Christ into their belief systems.

Shouldn't the Christian be punished more harshly?? I mean they believe in God and the heaven and hell concept, so aren't their actions in direct defience of God.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
Have you ever wondered why the Bible is divided between "New Testament" and "Old Testament"? Why is that? Very simple, because they are two separate things that don't relate to each other. So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us. In the words of Christ Himself:

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

The parable says that the Old Testament and the New one cannot be mixed together.



I disagree. The Old Testament provides us with the background and history of God's choosen people, Isreal. Also there is much wisdom to be found in the Psalms, Proverbs, Songs of Solomon, etc. One cannot fully understand the christian faith unless they understand BOTH testaments.
The Jews follow only the Old Testament, so you would think that christians would only follow the New Testament, but that isnt the case. There is a reason that God put both testaments together to make the Bible. If we didnt look also at the OT we would have very little proof for Jesus being the messiah as we would have none of the prophesies to look at.
The OT provides the context and background for the NT, as christians we cannot dismiss one just because some of the laws changed. we are still to follow the 10 commandments, which are found in the OT.
So I dont think you can follow just one, we as christians must study and use both testaments

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
I understand what you are saying, dont worry its not quantum mechanics.......but what I don't understand is why does God only forgive the religious? Has does asking for forgiveness have any bearing on the action itself. A sin is a sin? is it not? Why does it matter if you accept Jesus? Arent you as deservant of the consequence as the other, non christian person. A crime is a crime, but somehow his "favorites" get better treatment for simply accepting Jesus Christ into their belief systems.

Shouldn't the Christian be punished more harshly?? I mean they believe in God and the heaven and hell concept, so aren't their actions in direct defience of God.

maybe I can help a bit with this, we just studied it in youth group.

There are two types of 'sanctification' (being made pure or holy), there is POSITIONAL sanctification and PROGRESSIVE sanctification. Positional is where we get on God's happy side for all of eternity, and we cant lose that position that we hold (ie we sin by fighting with someone then die on the way home before we have a chance to ask forgivness, but because we are followers of Christ we go to heaven anyway). A diagram:

:) (God's happy side) | :( (God's upset side)
|
I've accepted Christ | I have not accepted Christ
and now I'm on this | and am stuck without God
side with God for all |
eternity |

As I understand it, we get Positional sanctification when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and ask forgivness for our sins in His name.

Progressive sanctification comes AFTER positional. Each time we sin we ask forgivness for that sin and we get forgiven. Sinning once becoming a christian does not condem you to hell but instead puts up communication barriers between you and God. so we ask forgivness so that we can talk without that standing in our way..... we may have lost communication briefly, but we never lost our position. We remain 'holy' throughout it. However, those who havent accept Christ dont have the position yet, so they are already going to hell, sinning again isnt going to change that. I also dont believe that they will be forgiven each time they ask for it until they accept Jesus and His death as their attonment, and gain that 'position'.

Check it out in Hebrews 10:1-18.

TruthSeeker,




If God would appear right in from of you, I'm pretty sure you would come up with a "logical" explanation...


Did you even read what I posted before? :confused:
Ok let me spell it out for you exactly then.

1) God is all-powerful
2) God is all-knowing
3) God is all-good

I'm sure we can agree on these three points

3) God wants all to come to heaven (being all-good)
4) In order to be accepted in to heaven you need to believe God
exists, or at least come to know him.(you say)
5) God knows what it would take to convince anyone what it takes to believe is his existance (being all-knowing), and is able to carry it out (because he's all powerful)
6) God hasn't sufficiently done this (as evidenced by other
religions & beliefs)

Go ahead and explain and enlighten me please!:confused:

Just for the record I do believe in God, but I'm very unsure if the Christian religion has all the details right.


Horseman42

The Rational of forgiveness by accepting Jesus still troubles me.

If a man goes through his entire life only sinning a minimal amount of times but is of a non religious nature he is not forgiven and thus goes to hell. On the other hand, A Christian that sins a substantial amount of time but always prays for forgiveness will be let into heaven. How does letting Jesus into your life make you more qualified for eternal bliss? Why should that be taken into account of your self worth?

An action should have the same consequences for everyone that it applies to, that would be the fair thing to do, especially coming from a all loving supreme being.

People are born in vastly different circumstances, and a result of these extremely different perceptions/experiences comes different beliefs. This is a unevitable fact of life. If you were born into a religious Muslim family in the Middle East chances are(highly) that you would grow up and accept Allah into your life. Does this make you a less deserving person, the fact that your life experiences were very different and that you simply had a different perspective on a thought.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
And God didn't punish us. We went against His Word and we had to leave.Then what do you call this; loving forgiveness?

Genesis 3:14-19
The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."


Besides, what we receive is an inheritance of the nature of sin. We are predisposed to sin because of that first sin. It is not that that sin is assigned to us, it is just that sin passes from generation to generation.Why would the actions of Adam cause me to be predisposed to sin?


I didn't say the Law doesn't apply anymore, I just said that we are not under it, subjected to it.Then you need to work on how you express yourself because that is certainly what it sounded like:


The rules:
None. Yes, there is absolutly no rules. God does advise us to Love one another but if you screw up He doesn't condemn you at all.

So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.

Btw... you seem to know the Word quite well... I wonder why...I was raised Christian but no one seemed to have very good answers to some of the rather obvious questions I had so I had to study to find out the answers myself. I might add that the course of this study led to my current disbelief.


Mark 16:16-18The events after Jesus' death is another area (besides Paul's chapters) where I feel that the NT diverges wildly from anything the historic Jesus taught. You have to realize that tend to look at this from a secular viewpoint. While I realize that this is somewhat self-serving as an argument I believe I have a fairly good point. The accounts of what Jesus said after he rose seem to differ significantly from those before hand.


He never tells us NOT ot follow the Law, He only tells us that we are free from it.Again; where did Jesus say this? Why would he not preach this before his death but only afterwards?


THOSE are the scriptures which I'm speaking about.I have serious problems believing Paul. There are two reasons for this; One, he never met Jesus in the flesh. Two, the teachings that he attributes to Jesus sometimes contradict and are often quite divergent from the things Jesus taught during his life.


Paul never disagreed with the other apostles. They speak of the same thing, though with their own personality.I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you over this. Quite frankly, these points have been discussed and worked over to a tremendous degree and I am not going to rerun through the whole thing. One needs to go through quite a bit of selective interpretation to fit the various contradiction into a workable whole and even then there are blatant contradictions. Here are just a few:

Faith and Works vs. Faith alone

1 Peter 1:17 "The Father, who without pariality judges according to each one's work."

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Ephesians 2:8-9"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Law vs Faith alone
Matthew 19:17 "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 5:19
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:28 "A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

If you look, you'll notice a pattern here with Paul stressing faith and dismissing the law. I already described why.

The death of Judas
Matthew 27:3
Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.
Acts 1:16-18
"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. "For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry." (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

Indeed, Paul can't even get his own story right:

Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

I will note here that this contradiction was rectified in the NAS translation... although I do wonder if it was specifically done to eliminate the contradiction.


Those are just some examples. The last one in John stress A LOT the importance of faith. The scripture of Peter says that without faith, we can't even be saved. So they also stress faith as Paul does.The point is not so much the stressing of faith as that Paul almost completely dismisses the Law.

~Raithere

Truthseaker,

I said:
The kingdom of heaven is at hand, and the violent TAKE IT BY FORCE...thats you and I...

He says in Rev 3rd chapter...To him that overcomes I will give ect.....
He can't push you through a 6 inch pipe, and pull you out the other end and then say you overcame, you didn't overcome anything....
--------
And you said

God's Love for us have overcomed our sins. Love covers a multitude of sins. Whoever believes in the name of His Son shall be saved. The key is faith. We are saved through faith.

Well... it is not exactly "violence". It is strenght, perseverance and power, but not exactly "violence"...

================================
================================

Matthew 11:12 - And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


Your "just beleive on the name of Jesus", doctrine is baptist justification........and thats it.

It while quoting scripture, leaves out the whole of the scripture and ignores the revelation of who Jesus Christ is.
He is the Word of God made flesh John 1:14
He is the whole Word, not a part of it.

You can't "beleive on Jesus" if you have taken away what he is by denying what He is.

You would be "believing" on some mans doctrine, not Gods word, and that is Jesus.

MooseKnuckle,


I understand what you are saying, dont worry its not quantum mechanics.......but what I don't understand is why does God only forgive the religious? Has does asking for forgiveness have any bearing on the action itself. A sin is a sin? is it not? Why does it matter if you accept Jesus? Arent you as deservant of the consequence as the other, non christian person. A crime is a crime, but somehow his "favorites" get better treatment for simply accepting Jesus Christ into their belief systems.
What you don't seem to understand is that by accepting Christ in you heart, you are filled with the Spirit of God and your sins are instantly forgiven. As I said before, "Christ" means "to be filled with teh fullness of the Spirit of God". If you accept "Christ", THAT is what you receive. God starts living in you. That's how forgiveness is possible through Christ. That's the only way you can accept forgiveness, having your sins washed away by His Love.


Shouldn't the Christian be punished more harshly?? I mean they believe in God and the heaven and hell concept, so aren't their actions in direct defience of God.
Christians don't usually go against God and sin...

New Life,


I disagree. The Old Testament provides us with the background and history of God's choosen people, Isreal. Also there is much wisdom to be found in the Psalms, Proverbs, Songs of Solomon, etc. One cannot fully understand the christian faith unless they understand BOTH testaments.
The Jews follow only the Old Testament, so you would think that christians would only follow the New Testament, but that isnt the case. There is a reason that God put both testaments together to make the Bible. If we didnt look also at the OT we would have very little proof for Jesus being the messiah as we would have none of the prophesies to look at.
The OT provides the context and background for the NT, as christians we cannot dismiss one just because some of the laws changed. we are still to follow the 10 commandments, which are found in the OT.
So I dont think you can follow just one, we as christians must study and use both testaments
I was speaking about forgiveness, not the whole thing. I had to stress that with Christ, the situation changed drastically. Most atheists don't understand that. That's why I had to stress that.

Besides, there is really only one commandment. If you follow that one, you will folloow all the 10...

Horseman42,


5) God knows what it would take to convince anyone what it takes to believe is his existance (being all-knowing), and is able to carry it out (because he's all powerful)
He also know when someone won't accept it in any way, even if someone is raised from the dead in front of their eyes. The usual cause of this is pride, but it can be many other things.


6) God hasn't sufficiently done this (as evidenced by other
God does make Himself evident for those who really seek Him.


Just for the record I do believe in God, but I'm very unsure if the Christian religion has all the details right.
What do you think it might be wrong?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Besides, there is really only one commandment. If you follow that one, you will folloow all the 10...

Amen to that, Jesus said that the first commandment is:

Mark.12
[28] And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

So Truthseeker, do you believe in the ONE god that is mine and yours and Jesus with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength?? I hope you do, because Jesus believes in his oneness, too bad the christians are confused about such a simple concept.

MooseKnuckle,


If a man goes through his entire life only sinning a minimal amount of times but is of a non religious nature he is not forgiven and thus goes to hell. On the other hand, A Christian that sins a substantial amount of time but always prays for forgiveness will be let into heaven. How does letting Jesus into your life make you more qualified for eternal bliss? Why should that be taken into account of your self worth?
Christ is the fullness of God's Spirit. When you accept Christ, you are accepting God into your heart. This is an action of mutual Love. Love covers a multitude of sins. Your sins are forgiven, you go to Heaven. This is not much preached and it should be preached more often. When I realized what I had accepted into my heart I was kinda amazed... :eek:


An action should have the same consequences for everyone that it applies to, that would be the fair thing to do, especially coming from a all loving supreme being.
This happens during the lifetime. However, after death it is the Spirit that lives within you that counts.


People are born in vastly different circumstances, and a result of these extremely different perceptions/experiences comes different beliefs. This is a unevitable fact of life. If you were born into a religious Muslim family in the Middle East chances are(highly) that you would grow up and accept Allah into your life. Does this make you a less deserving person, the fact that your life experiences were very different and that you simply had a different perspective on a thought.
http://sxws.co/charis/witness6.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/index.html
http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/algharib.htmlm

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
MooseKnuckle,


Christ is the fullness of God's Spirit. When you accept Christ, you are accepting God into your heart. This is an action of mutual Love. Love covers a multitude of sins. Your sins are forgiven, you go to Heaven. This is not much preached and it should be preached more often. When I realized what I had accepted into my heart I was kinda amazed... :eek:



damn Truthseeker, then we need to change the bible and change Jesus original words:

Truthseeker suggested modified scripture:
Hear, O Israel; The lord is me and only me for spirit of god is fulfilled in me. I'm the fullness of god spirit, accept me (Christ) to your heart and that is the first commandement.

Original Jesus first commandment that noone is following
Mark 12.29 The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:


Where do we go around here to edit bible scripture? DO we work with the existing king james publication to issue a new version, or do you suggest making our own brand new publication.

TruthSeeker,

I said...


Just for the record I do believe in God, but I'm very unsure if the Christian religion has all the details right.

You said...


What do you think it might be wrong?


How about because no one can answer me the question I outlined to you before


He also know when someone won't accept it in any way, even if someone is raised from the dead in front of their eyes. The usual cause of this is pride, but it can be many other things.

You obviously don't know what all-powerful means

It means that God can do anything..ANYTHING!

Hang on I'll put it in larger writing so you might understand

GOD can do anything If he's all powerful

GOD MUST, MUST, MUST be able to know what it takes to convince people of his greatness if he is all-powerful. There is nothing he cannot do. So if he can't prove his existance to a mear mortal (like me) then he is not all-powerful.

Think about it, it make perfect logical sense.

Horseman42

Raithere,


Genesis 3:14-19
The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Those are direct consequences of their actions...


Why would the actions of Adam cause me to be predisposed to sin?
Because He rebelled against God and his spirit of rebellion passed through all the generation until you.


Then you need to work on how you express yourself because that is certainly what it sounded like:
I quoted A LOT of scriptures talking about that. ALl of them saying that we are not under the Law, but it still applies. Romans 6, for example. Besides, I wrote like that to stress the differneces between the New Testament and Old Testament. Many people believe that they have to ask for forgiveness every time over and over again.


I was raised Christian but no one seemed to have very good answers to some of the rather obvious questions I had so I had to study to find out the answers myself. I might add that the course of this study led to my current disbelief.
And what is your current belief?


The events after Jesus' death is another area (besides Paul's chapters) where I feel that the NT diverges wildly from anything the historic Jesus taught. You have to realize that tend to look at this from a secular viewpoint. While I realize that this is somewhat self-serving as an argument I believe I have a fairly good point. The accounts of what Jesus said after he rose seem to differ significantly from those before hand.
Like what? Quote the differences.


Again; where did Jesus say this? Why would he not preach this before his death but only afterwards?
Matthew 26:27-29
"27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." "


I have serious problems believing Paul. There are two reasons for this; One, he never met Jesus in the flesh. Two, the teachings that he attributes to Jesus sometimes contradict and are often quite divergent from the things Jesus taught during his life.
Quote the "contradictions" and I will explain them to you.


Faith and Works vs. Faith alone

1 Peter 1:17 "The Father, who without pariality judges according to each one's work."

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Ephesians 2:8-9"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
Yeah sure...:

Romans 10:8-10
"8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. "

1 Peter 1:6-9
"6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. "

If you believe you can be forgiven and you don't accept your forgiveness, your faith is pointless. Paul never preached faith alone.


Law vs Faith alone
Matthew 19:17 "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 5:19
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:28 "A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
In the first tow, Jesus was speaking to the Jews, not to Christians (there weren't any Christians by then anyways...).


The death of Judas
Matthew 27:3
Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.
Acts 1:16-18
"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. "For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry." (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.
Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
I have to read all that carefully... I don't have time now...


The point is not so much the stressing of faith as that Paul almost completely dismisses the Law.
Reading only this scripture is enough to understand why Paul certainly doesn't dismiss the Law:

Romans 3:19-31
"19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. "

Horseman42,


How about because no one can answer me the question I outlined to you before
Which question...? Oh...! This one... Well... read below...


GOD MUST, MUST, MUST be able to know what it takes to convince people of his greatness if he is all-powerful. There is nothing he cannot do. So if he can't prove his existance to a mear mortal (like me) then he is not all-powerful.
There are people that not matter what you do to convince them, they won't be convinced by their own choice. They will just say that they don't believe and they won't give up on that. God cannot go against anyone's free will. He chose not to do that since the beginning and He probably promised Himself not to do so.

heflores,

damn Truthseeker, then we need to change the bible and change Jesus original words:


Truthseeker suggested modified scripture:
Hear, O Israel; The lord is me and only me for spirit of god is fulfilled in me. I'm the fullness of god spirit, accept me (Christ) to your heart and that is the first commandement.
I'm talking to unbelievers about Christianity.

Romans 6:23
"23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Matthew 26:27-29
"27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." "


Original Jesus first commandment that noone is following
Mark 12.29 The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
He was talking to the Jews. This is the first commandment for the Jews. They had to keep it because they were under the Law.


Where do we go around here to edit bible scripture? DO we work with the existing king james publication to issue a new version, or do you suggest making our own brand new publication.
I suggest you go and study the one that you already have... And pay attention to what is said...

Originally posted by TruthSeeker

He was talking to the Jews. This is the first commandment for the Jews. They had to keep it because they were under the Law.


So Jesus teachings change? I thought that whenever he spoke he talked to the whole humanity. Now you're saying that jesus was teaching the law that is not meant for us to follow...??????

If it was not meant for us to follow, then why does he stress it so much the importance of believing in the one god, his god.

Mark.12
[28] And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

As far as Roman scripture, Jesus was not the one saying that, I don't know who it was. The reason that it couldn't be Jesus, because he said, our lord, and if he was referring to himself, he would have said me. So who is it speaking in Roman 6:23

If you religious people can't even agree with each other how in the world would you expect anyone else to? :D

Simply disagreeing with each other proves one thing: Nobody knows for sure- thus the 'teachings' of an agnostic are prevalent.

'Might be, might not be'- no more, no less.

heflores,


So Jesus teachings change? I thought that whenever he spoke he talked to the whole humanity. Now you're saying that jesus was teaching the law that is not meant for us to follow...??????
No, His teaching never change. It is just that He teached all people. The thing is that you must read who is He adressing to. Some things He adressed to Jews. Some to the Phjarisees. Others just to His disciples. And those that He adressed to His disciples, He also adresses to Christians, since we are His disciples. Besides, not everything that He says is for everybody. For example, when the centurion showed his faith, He said that never He saw someone with such faith, not even Jews. You cannot just pick that and say that this applies to you, can you? Certainly not!


If it was not meant for us to follow, then why does he stress it so much the importance of believing in the one god, his god.
This is meant for everyone to follow. But this scripture clearly says that this was adressed to the Jews. The difference is that Christians do this naturally, so it is kinda pointless to tell them to do so. But the Jews didn't.


As far as Roman scripture, Jesus was not the one saying that, I don't know who it was. The reason that it couldn't be Jesus, because he said, our lord, and if he was referring to himself, he would have said me. So who is it speaking in Roman 6:23
Paul. Have you read the passage in Matthew at all? In the Matthew one, Jesus was the one speaking.

SnakeLord,

The disagreements are little and actually pretty pointless. Also, they are only superficial. To agree with one another, we have to focus on Love. Love is the perfect bond of unity. If the church of this world was more concerned about Loving and sharing its own Love, the church would be more united.

Besides, I don't find that much of disagreements anyways... But this is normal. Even people that have the same point of view will disagree in something, because everyone is different and unique.

Btw... you atheists disagree in lots of things...:bugeye:

Btw... you atheists disagree in lots of things...

You athiests?? I'm not an athiest- not even close to it.

Secondly of course non believers disagree with a lot of things- that's the whole point of it all. We do not claim to know the absolute truth so must search for it and everyone can make theories attempting to find the actual truth. If people on this side of the fence agreed with everything we'd be religious. Then we'd just dispute the 'petty things' like you lot :D

You are not an atheist? Then, what are you?

I'm a guy who wants to find the truth, the whole truth, and nothing bu the truth. Familiar saying but one that is taking out of all meaning.

As a demonstration let me state i believe in the possiblity of the loch ness monster, i believe in the possibility of fairy's, inccubi, werewolves and whatever else remains nothing more than uncertainty. I believe in the possibility of there being a god, but i also believe in the possibility that there isn't.

In saying, everything that is speculated upon is possible. It's a might be or might not be situation. However, if someone tells me to accept and just have faith that something does or doesn't i cannot do that.

The belief in god differs from most 'possibilities'. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the real god is actually the sun god Ra worshipped many eons ago. Everyone else has spent their life worshipping something and believing in something that is false. Not one religion has the right to say it is correct above all the others. If you find it that easy to pick and choose what is right, without even having anything to suggest anyone is then fair enough- i cannot.

Personally i feel that if there is a god or gods that it/they have no position to judge me for how i conduct my mortal life. I have signed no agreement aceepting servitude of anything. While im here i look after my wife and my daughter- if anyone or anything has a problem with that fuck them. Maybe unfortunately my heart doesn't have the storage space for anyone other than my wife and daughter. If that's a fault it's a creation fault, not mine- thus i take no responsibility for it.

If said being/s decide to come and talk to me and show me the facts then i can change my way of thinking.

I will still look, just as i look for the loch ness monster, vampires and whatever else unbelievable you could think of but currently there is no proof to suggest any of the above are fact. Without fact i never commit to something. You could spend time telling me stuff like: "you just have faith wind is there" and stuff of ultimately petty and irrelevant nature but there's little point. I know the wind is there- science has proved where it comes from, where it goes, and what it does. This is more than earthly occurences than wind. To even regard them in the same light would be a mistake.

Currently all we have to go on are the words of shepherds and your personal 'feeling' that god is there. Something spoke to you, something visited you- it's still irrelevant.

If i said: "Loch ness monster spoke to me in a vision" would you instantly believe what i say? Of course not, and by that same rationing you shouldn't ever expect me to do so when you say something. I have no doubt you believe what you say- gives no reason why i should do the same.

The only way we can start to find answers is by asking questions and debating issues. So far after all this time there is nothing that has been said that furthers the issue of god towards proof.

How can anyone in their right mind just expect me to accept something on faith? It's ok for many many people but as i've said countless times some of us require more.

How ironic it would be if we all ended up in heaven and god condemned the religious folk for just accepting an answer instead of questioning it. That's what i call 'willing slavery'. Actually believing something is right when it may not be and serving a life under it. Not my style man- however it always remains a possibility.

Truthseeker:

K, I didnt read all those pages so I just wanted to add that just in case!

Originally posted by SnakeLord
I'm a guy who wants to find the truth, the whole truth, and nothing bu the truth So help you God? ;)

SnakeLord,


I'm a guy who wants to find the truth, the whole truth, and nothing bu the truth. Familiar saying but one that is taking out of all meaning.

I just have to say this whole thing is nicely put. I think a lot of us can agree with the points you have made.:)

TruthSeeker,


There are people that not matter what you do to convince them, they won't be convinced by their own choice. They will just say that they don't believe and they won't give up on that. God cannot go against anyone's free will. He chose not to do that since the beginning and He probably promised Himself not to do so.

I can kind of understand what you mean by this, although it's a little vague. There are either going to be people who except that God exists or that God doesn't. Then why has God proved his existance to only a select few and not other people? This doesn't make sense if we are to have free will as you put it why even prove his existance to anyone? Any act would be a violation of our "free will" as some would become convinced.

For example if God appeared as burning bush perhaps 45% of the people witnessing would believe it's God (violating our free will). Wearas 55% of the people would believe it not to be God (based on their own perceptions). God could have appeared in a different way in the example whereby everyone would have understood (he's God and can do anything).

Looking at it another way. People (who were originally non-believers) have stated time and time again that certain "miracles" or experiences they have proved to them the existance of God. Assuming that these experiences are truely from God then he has voilated our free will according to what you stated before.


Also speaking of free will. I posted before...


Right so now the choice is to accept Christ in your heart or not. If we don't then we go to hell. So therefore God is giving us the choice to choose (because we have free will) and then punishing us if we make the wrong decision. This is what I meant that it seams like we have a gun to our heads.

Thought you said God doesn't voilate our free will, but it sure feels like that way to me according to what you say.


Horseman42

Anytime someone wants you to accept something by replacing reason with faith, you are witnessing the perpetuation of a deception.

Horseman42,


I can kind of understand what you mean by this, although it's a little vague. There are either going to be people who except that God exists or that God doesn't. Then why has God proved his existance to only a select few and not other people? This doesn't make sense if we are to have free will as you put it why even prove his existance to anyone? Any act would be a violation of our "free will" as some would become convinced.
If He told us to go to the whole world and preach the gospel, then this means that people can receive it from us. So I don't know how to really answer all that. What I know is that some people accept easily, others accept hardly and some others finish by not accepting for whatever personal reason.


For example if God appeared as burning bush perhaps 45% of the people witnessing would believe it's God (violating our free will). Wearas 55% of the people would believe it not to be God (based on their own perceptions). God could have appeared in a different way in the example whereby everyone would have understood (he's God and can do anything).
The way you perceive the Truth is not necessarily the pure expression of what the truth really is. And... why would that violate our free will...??:confused:


Looking at it another way. People (who were originally non-believers) have stated time and time again that certain "miracles" or experiences they have proved to them the existance of God. Assuming that these experiences are truely from God then he has voilated our free will according to what you stated before.
How? How is that violating free will??


Thought you said God doesn't voilate our free will, but it sure feels like that way to me according to what you say.
Again, what have I said that would mean that God violate our free will?

Raithere,


The death of Judas
Matthew 27:3
Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.
Acts 1:16-18
"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. "For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry." (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.
I talked about this one with my pastor.
The book of acts was written by Luke. There is a passage in the gospel of Luke that says that Judas hanged himself. The passage in Acts tells what you said it tells. The thing here is that one account doesn't contradict the other. Both accounts are right. Luke just went further with the explanation in Acts.

"one account doesn't contradict the other"
"... and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out" Acts 1:18

OK, by faith I can see that's a description of a suicide hanging:rolleyes:

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
This is meant for everyone to follow. But this scripture clearly says that this was adressed to the Jews. The difference is that Christians do this naturally, so it is kinda pointless to tell them to do so. But the Jews didn't.


Paul. Have you read the passage in Matthew at all? In the Matthew one, Jesus was the one speaking.

Thanks Truthseeker for your patience and your responces. I still see holes in your logic though regarding the modern interpretation of the bible regarding the trinity and that god forbid, the claim that Jesus is god.

So if the Christians do follow the first commandment and believe that god in the only point of worship, then why do they put Jesus in the place of god by calling him a god, even though he was addressing them as a messanger of god.

You didn't anwer my question about the Roman scripture you posted earlier, if Jesus is indeed speaking, so why would he refer to himself as our....doesn't make any sense. He should have said me.

TruthSeeker,


Let me try and explain it all again, becuase you must be having difficultly with this concept...

1) God want all to come to heaven and to know him

2) Mankind would need proof of the existance of God so we may come to heaven. As we can't get in if we don't (you say).

3) God gave us this proof (tons of examples in the bible)

Now either one excepts this proof or denies it.

Excepts ----> God has conviced me to believe in his nature (according to what you said this voilates my free will!)

Denies ------> God must not be all powerful if he cannot convince me of his nature.

In essence one must assume all people except the fact God exists otherwise your saying he's not all powerful. If this is true then again he has voilated our free will!! Do you understand now?

I said before...


Right so now the choice is to accept Christ in your heart or not. If we don't then we go to hell. So therefore God is giving us the choice to choose (because we have free will) and then punishing us if we make the wrong decision. This is what I meant that it seams like we have a gun to our heads.

Did you even read the above? This is what you believe is it not? What "choice" do I really have if I don't want to go to Hell? I'm not really free to decide then am I? This is the third time I've posted this and you still haven't explained it to me yet!


Horseman42

Originally posted by Horseman42
TruthSeeker,

I can kind of understand what you mean by this, although it's a little vague. There are either going to be people who except that God exists or that God doesn't. Then why has God proved his existance to only a select few and not other people? This doesn't make sense if we are to have free will as you put it why even prove his existance to anyone? Any act would be a violation of our "free will" as some would become convinced.

For example if God appeared as burning bush perhaps 45% of the people witnessing would believe it's God (violating our free will). Wearas 55% of the people would believe it not to be God (based on their own perceptions). God could have appeared in a different way in the example whereby everyone would have understood (he's God and can do anything).

Looking at it another way. People (who were originally non-believers) have stated time and time again that certain "miracles" or experiences they have proved to them the existance of God. Assuming that these experiences are truely from God then he has voilated our free will according to what you stated before.

Horseman42

I wouldnt say that God is really 'proving' His existence to us (at least not 100%, non-deniable proof that could convince anyone, tho I'm sure He's capable of that) I think that God is more 'revealing' Himself to us and we have our free-will in that we can choose to see it or ignore it.

like in your example of the burning bush; God reveals some of His power by speaking thru a burning bush that isnt burning of fire as we know it.....some people choose to look at that and say 'hey, there's God! He's revealing Himself too us again!' and others choose to say 'thats not God, its just a burning bush' The choice to ignore God often comes when people dont want to give up the 'sin' in their life, such as smoking, drinking, pre-marital sex, lying, etc...because to see God in that bush means that you accept Him and His Laws and you hafta give that stuff up.

(btw those who dont know what we mean by the burning bush, its in the story of Moses....Exodus.....and God tells moses to go to Egypt and lead God's people out of slavery and into the promised land, by speaking as a burning bush)

God doesnt prove Himself to us totally because to PROVE it would mean that we dont have the choice to ignore it.........and then its not of our free-will to follow Him, its because we have to. God loves us and wants us to love Him back, of our own choosing.

Hope that clarifies a bit! great discussion folks, I'm so happy to see you respecting each other!

Horseman42,


Excepts ----> God has conviced me to believe in his nature (according to what you said this voilates my free will!)
No, that doesn't violate free will.


Denies ------> God must not be all powerful if he cannot convince me of his nature.
Your choice is not a part of His free will, it is a part of your. God gave you a huge power, the power to choose. God cannot change what you choose, it is yours.


Did you even read the above? This is what you believe is it not? What "choice" do I really have if I don't want to go to Hell? I'm not really free to decide then am I? This is the third time I've posted this and you still haven't explained it to me yet!
If you don't want to go to hell, accept God to live in your heart. If this is your choice (go to Heaven), then that's what you have to do. Heaven only exist when you are with God. That's what makes the difference. It is God that makes Heaven a nice place. If you accept God, you accept Heaven. You cannot accept one and deny the other, because Heaven is God, and God is Heaven. If you want to go to Heaven, that means that you are already accepting God. If you want to accept God, then I welcome you in the family... :)

TruthSeeker,


Your choice is not a part of His free will, it is a part of your. God gave you a huge power, the power to choose. God cannot change what you choose, it is yours.

So there will always be those who are destined for Hell and those who are going to heaven, and there's nothing God can do about this. Funny he would create souls that are destined for hell to begin with if he wants all to come to heaven. I hardly think this is fair for a loving God to send his own children to Hell for not understanding his message!

.
If you don't want to go to hell, accept God to live in your heart. If this is your choice (go to Heaven), then that's what you have to do. Heaven only exist when you are with God. That's what makes the difference. It is God that makes Heaven a nice place. If you accept God, you accept Heaven. You cannot accept one and deny the other, because Heaven is God, and God is Heaven. If you want to go to Heaven, that means that you are already accepting God. If you want to accept God, then I welcome you in the family...

I can understand what you're saying here, this all makes perfect sense to me. The part I have a problem with is if you choose not to believe in God. You said those that don't believe go to Hell. This is the part I don't understand. Who in their right mind is going to NOT accept God in their heart faced with the possibility of going to Hell? It doesn't seem like much of a choice.

Trust me it's not that I don't want to believe in Christianity. I'm just trying to look for answers, and I want to believe for the right reasons.


Horseman42

I think it convenient to mold God with human like qualities- love, compassion, forgiveness....etc.. therefore you can create something that you can understand. But are states of mind really part of being perfect? I would say no.

We can look at atoms and watch them react and do all those wonderful things they do, atoms dont have thoughts, they merely just interact. They do not show signs of intelligence but nonetheless do some amazing things that we are starting to grasp as humans.

We are moving forward, sometimes taking small steps back, but we strive to know the answers and at a time religion gave a plausible for the time explanation. Now science is the new religion so to say, it has given us answers when there was specualtion in its place. Why would you turn your back on it? Ask yourself-what do you value more Happy speculation or Hard evidence. If you say you want truth, then you have to accept the fact that it might not make you feel warm and tingly inside. 2000 years ago some guys collaborated on a book, something that has been done before, many times, so what? what does it hold except for some wishful thinking. It gives us a depiction of a Human molded God that is as confused as he is one mean son of a bitch.

See, all these questions people ask regarding God's nature, or of religion in general are not due to a misunderstanding so much, as to an utter confusion of one's capacity for self delusion.

Maybe God is real.....maybe its not a he but a she. I mean who can be so irrational and miscommunicate so well. You know what, truth be told Humans made him up thats why there is so many questions out there, cause if he existed he wouldnt play hide and seek games and cause some of us, (whom are on a honest search for the truth) to suffer eternally for not seeing the "obvious" Dont people see the contradictions? Im starting to think by answering some of these questions they try to convince themselves in the process instead of enlightening us. The truth is- Life is unfair, life is cruel, life doesnt care a single bit about anyone, it is mindless and has no plan, we are transports for our genes and thats the purpose of life, hard to accept? Yes I understand people WANT more, but really, do you want fiction or reality.

Richard Dawkins- "the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."

Horseman42,


So there will always be those who are destined for Hell and those who are going to heaven, and there's nothing God can do about this. Funny he would create souls that are destined for hell to begin with if he wants all to come to heaven. I hardly think this is fair for a loving God to send his own children to Hell for not understanding his message!
Predestination again...

No. God created everyone to accept Him. It is the choices that we make during life that molds our personality into making the choice of going to hell. Basically, we born with our eyes turned to Heaven, but as we make choices, our eyes turn to the right or to the left, and then... it is lost. God still gives the chance to everyone. You are having a chance right now. Wheter you accept it or not it is your own choice.


I can understand what you're saying here, this all makes perfect sense to me. The part I have a problem with is if you choose not to believe in God. You said those that don't believe go to Hell. This is the part I don't understand. Who in their right mind is going to NOT accept God in their heart faced with the possibility of going to Hell? It doesn't seem like much of a choice.
The hard part that you seme not to understand is that God prepared a place for those who don't accept Him. The choice is of the person. Hell is just a place where God is not there, because you didn't accept Him. He won't make you go to Heaven if you don't want to. Why wouldn't you choose to go to Heaven? Or you are with God, or you are without Him. What do you choose? It is your choice. Hell is not a place created to punish, it is a place created for those that don't want God, that's all.


Trust me it's not that I don't want to believe in Christianity. I'm just trying to look for answers, and I want to believe for the right reasons.
Believe that God is Life and He comes to live within you if you ask Him and you shall be saved. He is acccepts you wholeheartly. He has a place prepared for you in Heaven. He has already forgiven all your sins. I like you trying to believe for the right reasons. That's much better then blind faith. It is your choice.

Believe that God is Life and He comes to live within you if you ask Him and you shall be saved

Thrown into a hostile situation with dire consequences, and only if you acknowledge his existance you can join his club. Is he somehow weeding out the people he doesnt like?

TruthSeeker,



Predestination again...

Sorry if you've already covered this, but since were on the topic...


No. God created everyone to accept Him. It is the choices that we make during life that molds our personality into making the choice of going to hell. Basically, we born with our eyes turned to Heaven, but as we make choices, our eyes turn to the right or to the left, and then... it is lost. God still gives the chance to everyone. You are having a chance right now. Wheter you accept it or not it is your own choice.

Again you forget what all-knowing means. God knows the choices we make before we make them. He therefore knows who is going to hell before they are born! If he gives the chance to everyone then either he doesn't know who's going to heaven/hell (and therefore he's not all knowing) or he creates those who are destined for hell. There's no two ways about it.


Hell is not a place created to punish, it is a place created for those that don't want God, that's all.

I'm interested to know what your definition of Hell is because it's not the same one I was raised to understand. I was taught Hell was a place of eternal torcher, with fire, darkness and devils and demons running around with pichforks. Your kind of hell doesn't sound so bad really.

On a more personal note I do believe in God I believe in heaven. I believe there are many routes to heaven, not just from the Christian faith. I don't think a place like Hell can exist as I mentioned above, the real hell is not knowing about God.