This is, quite obviously, the philosophy section, but philosophy is a rather broad term. What do you believe? What is philosophy to you? How do you feel about other beliefs you've been expose to? I'm brand new, I'm getting a feel for the place. All minds welcome.

This is the Eastern Philosophy section, which tends to be different than the West in that the concern is more existential, not a matter of deciding which set of beliefs to adopt. I could say more, but perhaps this is a good place to start.

This is, quite obviously, the philosophy section, but philosophy is a rather broad term. What do you believe? What is philosophy to you? How do you feel about other beliefs you've been expose to? I'm brand new, I'm getting a feel for the place. All minds welcome.


i dont believe any one thing really, i have many questions but no real answers.


ive been exposed to many different beliefs and i donr favour any over others really, opening your mind to everything and bieng pretty open minded is key in philosophy,


i dont believe anything, but i philosophies beyond reason,

each life is a story and an individual philosophy,

peace.

I like the Buddha's philosophy:
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

Very nice...ok, believe is not the word I'm looking for. You are correct, spidergoat, philosophers such as ourselves (eastern, if you must call it that) are not so stupid as to waste time fighting wars over who is right and wrong. Now, existentialism, what are your views on that? Like how the universe works, how we coincide with it, with eachother, so on?

This is, quite obviously, the philosophy section, but philosophy is a rather broad term. What do you believe? What is philosophy to you? How do you feel about other beliefs you've been expose to? I'm brand new, I'm getting a feel for the place. All minds welcome.

Welcome seekeroftheway........Well, don't know about you but the world seems in a right mess, and this includes the past.
I see a pattern where generally people of the Earth become attacked, oppressed and subjugated by a bullyingmindset whic beliefves in a 'spirit' over 'matter' philosophy....and/or sky-god which rules over Nature
Then in moern times the belief SEEMS to change. they drop 'spirit' and claim there is only 'matter', and carry on oppressing, and even Nature nowis under threat, which means thousands of other species made extinct, and this continues daily at an alarming rate. THIS philosophy fueling this march to self-destruction is the materialist philosophy

So looking at all this is intuit that THEmai problem throughout philosophical thught has been the idea of there being a schism between 'spirit' and 'matter'. andthat the believers on both sides of this schism inevitably become divided from themselves, from community, and Nature

so i feel the need to explore how spirit/consciousness and matter were never really separated in te first place. wht created this delusion was when male philosophers create conceptual abstracts and then BELIEVE in their tought processesto be ACTUAL. and from this flse premise they acted on it and created the hell we are in today

so if one is serious, there HASto be a radical shift away from this linear move to self-destruction. we must see how Nature is ALIVE. THE primal inspirer for such insight are the psychedelics. to take tem respectfully but also integration has to include education--ecological awareness. understanding our place in Nature and how to live so as not to destroy it for all other species. because we NEED the diversity. We are not isolated unis. we ar utterly interelated with al eco systems.
SP IT IS UNDERSTANDING THIS I FEEL WHICH IS THEmost important thing we can do

One might agree in that case that life would be much, much better for everyone and everything if we abolished A LOT of technology that we have in the world today, mostly war machines, oil rigs, the most destructive stuff. But then we have to wonder, what is really the most destructive? Just three years ago in fallon nevada, a leukemia burst was seen in small children due to arsenic poisoning in the ground. Every day, people in places like New York and LA breathe frightening amounts of chemicals and even materials into their system. So who would be the true enemy if we were to try and find a better unison with the environment?

the world is "perfect" (in a subjective sense) humans are the only thing that unbaleces the harmony of earth, the other animals, plantlife and natural lands are in perfect harmony and cycle, but humans are the inbalence in everything,


the universe is a mystery and will remain so to humans, we the limited cannot truley understad the limitless,

there are many many ideas philosophies and theorys that are great, i have many myself, but true understanding is beyond us,

i like the daoist approach to theorys about the universe, alot of buddhist philosophies touch on the universe and its mysteries, indian philosophies and egyptian alike also speak alot about the universe and its creation and our part in it,


i read all type of pjilosophy, it dosent matter to me if it was written 2000 years ago in early china, 1000 years ago in tribal america, or today by some guy on the internet, i enjoy all philosophy especially ancient eastern.


peace.

the universe is a mystery and will remain so to humans, we the limited cannot truley understad the limitless,

It was this attitude, the taoist idea that we 'cannot truly understand', which kept the chinese from conquering the world-- even though they had invented the printing press a thousand years before the west.


i read all type of pjilosophy

Really? I read all types of pjilosophy, too. And psilogony.

You should realize that Taoism was not the dominate philosophy of the ruling class in China, it was Confucianism, and China did do a heck of a job of conquering.

They repressed science.. or they repressed the drive to science because you "couldn't really know" anything. Taoism was born in the perfectly ordered society of the society and held them back, though it did allow for stability.

Conquering != Progress

One might agree in that case that life would be much, much better for everyone and everything if we abolished A LOT of technology that we have in the world today, mostly war machines, oil rigs, the most destructive stuff. But then we have to wonder, what is really the most destructive? Just three years ago in fallon nevada, a leukemia burst was seen in small children due to arsenic poisoning in the ground. Every day, people in places like New York and LA breathe frightening amounts of chemicals and even materials into their system. So who would be the true enemy if we were to try and find a better unison with the environment?

The natrual world is wild, and a erson can get injured and die. the actuality of this unpredictability is what i feel drove a ceretain mindset to try and control it. i would say the patriarchal 'spiritual' traditions seek to escape Nature, and materialistic science wants to control it

doing this they simultaneously are trying to control themselves, suppress their wild deeper nature which is INTERCONNECTING with Nature. tis situation obviously isn't healthy, in te real meaning of the term. because you are fighting awesome energies in yourself
te FEAR of tis wildness is what projects outward onto others and Natyre seen as a threat

the general lack pf any maning in moderns lives is due to this denial repression suppression of our natrual feeling. and then culture comes int to manipulate this loss with modern technology, this puts a 'screen' between us and actual Nature. the sense of BELONGING here
te patriarchal spiritual trraditions GUILT us about beloning here, and wildness, and warn us OFF exploring Nature wit sacramental substances. substances which fvery much inspire theprimal interelated sense of belonging

the world is "perfect" (in a subjective sense) humans are the only thing that unbaleces the harmony of earth, the other animals, plantlife and natural lands are in perfect harmony and cycle, but humans are the inbalence in everything,


the universe is a mystery and will remain so to humans, we the limited cannot truley understad the limitless,

there are many many ideas philosophies and theorys that are great, i have many myself, but true understanding is beyond us,

i like the daoist approach to theorys about the universe, alot of buddhist philosophies touch on the universe and its mysteries, indian philosophies and egyptian alike also speak alot about the universe and its creation and our part in it,


i read all type of pjilosophy, it dosent matter to me if it was written 2000 years ago in early china, 1000 years ago in tribal america, or today by some guy on the internet, i enjoy all philosophy especially ancient eastern.


peace.

Are we really? We are unique because we are unlike all other creatures. Whereas the bear is equipped with the instinct and the physical prowess to hunt and seek shelter and survive, humans are not. Our trait is that we are capable of finding out how to survive, to learn, to adapt. A human can be born and raised in Africa and then be placed in antarctica, and given the resources, could survive. A grizzly bear in a similar situation would not.
Another trait is, as Agent Smith so aptly quoted (sci fi freak, that's how I found this forum), "After much speculation, I have found that you humans are not actually mammals. You see, mammals move into an area and form a certain equilibrium with the environment. Humans, however, move into an area and multiply, until all natural resources are consumed. Forthwith, you move to another area. There is only one other organism that performs this way: A virus."
So, are we really out of balance? Or are we simply unique and perhaps significant?

You should realize that Taoism was not the dominate philosophy of the ruling class in China, it was Confucianism, and China did do a heck of a job of conquering.

That they did. Qin Shi Huangdi was...quite the character, though. Firstly, conquered all of China and united it under one rule, then he thought, "Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, I'm the first sovereign ruler of China, I'm like a god and stuff..." So, to seek immortality and make is reign one of totality(If any of the philosophers at the time had been brave enough to stand up and say anything, they would know that there is no such thing as absolution or totality or permanence, and Qin would've known he was screwed from the start...), he got all his best alchemists together and they told him "Heeeeeeeeeey, this liquid stuff is the only thing out there that can alter Gold, it must be all magical and stuff. We made it into a pill, take these and your life will be prolonged until your little spy prick over here gets to the immortal isles and brings back the immortal elixirs for you." So he takes a mercury pill daily. It made him a lot like this guy---> :eek:
And, ironically enough, the mercury shortened his life instead of prolonging it. Perfect example of yin and yang...

They repressed science.. or they repressed the drive to science because you "couldn't really know" anything. Taoism was born in the perfectly ordered society of the society and held them back, though it did allow for stability.

Conquering != Progress

So go pull a hitler, or a Qin Shi Huangdi, go conquer Europe and kill all your kinsman, go chug mercury, go kill and then go die.
Ooooooooooor, realize that although that may be a true statement, it will destroy you just as you destroy...whatever you conquer, and let someone else be destroyed for it instead of you. Brains, gotta love being human...

The natrual world is wild, and a erson can get injured and die. the actuality of this unpredictability is what i feel drove a ceretain mindset to try and control it. i would say the patriarchal 'spiritual' traditions seek to escape Nature, and materialistic science wants to control it

doing this they simultaneously are trying to control themselves, suppress their wild deeper nature which is INTERCONNECTING with Nature. tis situation obviously isn't healthy, in te real meaning of the term. because you are fighting awesome energies in yourself
te FEAR of tis wildness is what projects outward onto others and Natyre seen as a threat

the general lack pf any maning in moderns lives is due to this denial repression suppression of our natrual feeling. and then culture comes int to manipulate this loss with modern technology, this puts a 'screen' between us and actual Nature. the sense of BELONGING here
te patriarchal spiritual trraditions GUILT us about beloning here, and wildness, and warn us OFF exploring Nature wit sacramental substances. substances which fvery much inspire theprimal interelated sense of belonging


But is it not NATURAL to fear what one doesn't understand? You do realize that this whole principle of mechanization over nature goes back to the dawn of mankind. We were born with the ability to learn how to overcome obstacles, how to use those obstacles to our advantage, even. Nature is great, and powerful, and very hard to comprehend fully. So, as per our NATURE, we fear it.

But is it not NATURAL to fear what one doesn't understand? You do realize that this whole principle of mechanization over nature goes back to the dawn of mankind. We were born with the ability to learn how to overcome obstacles, how to use those obstacles to our advantage, even. Nature is great, and powerful, and very hard to comprehend fully. So, as per our NATURE, we fear it.
when we become alienated from our nature and Nature, qhich is continuum, that is when we become fvery very dangerous. this is evidencednow.
there is a massive distinhction between being in AWE of Natur and fearing it. when you fear you dont love. fear is not understanding. take racism. doesn't te racist fear the 'other'? and then wants to conhtrol, kill, etc the 'othe' he fears?

Look, take the Mayans, thyey believed that by doing certain riuals they could keep te sun rising and rain falling. tat is fear ish't it? te fear tat if they dont do abc then ther'll be death. lillte did theyknow it was rubbish they believed. tey also did much blood sacrifice for the same purpose!

i think when you explore te sorce of most fear, ancient andmodern, it involves DEATH. so we ned to understand death and its relation to life. itnis the traditions which understood the cyclic nature of life death and regeneratin which have been the most intelligent

It was this attitude, the taoist idea that we 'cannot truly understand', which kept the chinese from conquering the world-- even though they had invented the printing press a thousand years before the west.



Really? I read all types of pjilosophy, too. And psilogony.


the need for this type of sarcasm would be?, it was a typo im sorry for it.

and i wasnt aware we had god in the building, are you disputing what i said?, and you actually think a human will truley know facts about what happened billions of years ago, witht he creation of existance, ?


please inform me on the informationt hat you must hold, i would like to know the mysteries of existance please, almighty,

and how did the daoists stop the emporers from all of this? the government was not daoist, and china was very good militant wise, what is your beef?

peace.

Are we really? We are unique because we are unlike all other creatures. Whereas the bear is equipped with the instinct and the physical prowess to hunt and seek shelter and survive, humans are not. Our trait is that we are capable of finding out how to survive, to learn, to adapt. A human can be born and raised in Africa and then be placed in antarctica, and given the resources, could survive. A grizzly bear in a similar situation would not.
Another trait is, as Agent Smith so aptly quoted (sci fi freak, that's how I found this forum), "After much speculation, I have found that you humans are not actually mammals. You see, mammals move into an area and form a certain equilibrium with the environment. Humans, however, move into an area and multiply, until all natural resources are consumed. Forthwith, you move to another area. There is only one other organism that performs this way: A virus."
So, are we really out of balance? Or are we simply unique and perhaps significant?

i dotn understand fully what you are saying, i understand the last part, and that is very true about the virus, all iw as sayign was humans damage the earth like no other lifeform, and we unbalence the earth, we have put it out of balence that is known fact, look at the global climate, and weather patterns,

but what you said about humans and bears, a bear can survive there, its called a polar bear, wich is related tot he grizzly, and humans would die unless taught how to survive by there parents, if you went and put a whole african village in the north pole with nothign but there bare skin, they would most likely all die out,

peace,

i dotn understand fully what you are saying, i understand the last part, and that is very true about the virus, all iw as sayign was humans damage the earth like no other lifeform, and we unbalence the earth, we have put it out of balence that is known fact, look at the global climate, and weather patterns,

but what you said about humans and bears, a bear can survive there, its called a polar bear, wich is related tot he grizzly, and humans would die unless taught how to survive by there parents, if you went and put a whole african village in the north pole with nothign but there bare skin, they would most likely all die out,

peace,


No, what I'm actually contradicting your point of us throwing things out of balance. What is balance, really? If you think about it, yin and yang AREN'T equal. A monument that could've taken thousands of years to build could be destroyed in an instant with massive firepower. If this is so, that creation and destruction are not equal, and that life is ever changing, perhaps we are simply the weight that is tipping the scales in one direction, and that although we are destroying parts of the planet and damaging it as is, that that is the road to greater healing when the scales tip back. Perhaps we are simply taking or first, or perhaps our last steps down the road to a "great renewal" that many mormons believe in, you see?

the need for this type of sarcasm would be?, it was a typo im sorry for it.

and i wasnt aware we had god in the building, are you disputing what i said?, and you actually think a human will truley know facts about what happened billions of years ago, witht he creation of existance, ?


please inform me on the informationt hat you must hold, i would like to know the mysteries of existance please, almighty,

and how did the daoists stop the emporers from all of this? the government was not daoist, and china was very good militant wise, what is your beef?

peace.


Yes, again, please keep the forum on the subject of the forum. Typos are typos, stop seeking conflict. You should be coming to this forum to talk about what the forum is about.

when we become alienated from our nature and Nature, qhich is continuum, that is when we become fvery very dangerous. this is evidencednow.
there is a massive distinhction between being in AWE of Natur and fearing it. when you fear you dont love. fear is not understanding. take racism. doesn't te racist fear the 'other'? and then wants to conhtrol, kill, etc the 'othe' he fears?

Look, take the Mayans, thyey believed that by doing certain riuals they could keep te sun rising and rain falling. tat is fear ish't it? te fear tat if they dont do abc then ther'll be death. lillte did theyknow it was rubbish they believed. tey also did much blood sacrifice for the same purpose!

i think when you explore te sorce of most fear, ancient andmodern, it involves DEATH. so we ned to understand death and its relation to life. itnis the traditions which understood the cyclic nature of life death and regeneratin which have been the most intelligent

But is that not natural as well? That there should be the less and more intelligent? That at some point there should be much destruction in whose wake there should be much creation, and vice versa? And the mayans kept their society strong because every single one of them believe that by doing that the sun would keep coming. They kept themselves feeling safe and secure doing those rituals, simply because they weren't actually keeping the sun and the rain coming doesn't mean they were without purpose.

and i wasnt aware we had god in the building, are you disputing what i said?, and you actually think a human will truley know facts about what happened billions of years ago, with he creation of existance, ?

Yes. And the fact we even know how old the universe is quite a step up from 'really long ego' in Tao philosophy.


please inform me on the informationt hat you must hold, i would like to know the mysteries of existance please, almighty,

and how did the daoists stop the emporers from all of this? the government was not daoist, and china was very good militant wise, what is your beef?

peace.

Describe to me the 'chen' is inside your computer and then prove its existence? And then give me your poetic interpretation of how a computer works?

See, Taoism is neat, but it amounts basically to sensical poetry.

The Chinese scientists, at the time called 'Taoists', believed in 'chen' and didn't have room for what we call the scientific ideal. They believed you couldn't model the universe, since it was unknowable. And thus did not advance much farther than mechanical devices such the printing press or firecrackers.

The government in fact made no scientific discoveries. Their job was to keep a stable, ordered society in which technological pursuits besides immortality-science were discouraged. No vertical mobility between the classes. No aspirations to advance technology for the improvement of life.

No, what I'm actually contradicting your point of us throwing things out of balance. What is balance, really? If you think about it, yin and yang AREN'T equal. A monument that could've taken thousands of years to build could be destroyed in an instant with massive firepower. If this is so, that creation and destruction are not equal, and that life is ever changing, perhaps we are simply the weight that is tipping the scales in one direction, and that although we are destroying parts of the planet and damaging it as is, that that is the road to greater healing when the scales tip back. Perhaps we are simply taking or first, or perhaps our last steps down the road to a "great renewal" that many mormons believe in, you see?



i dont say yin and yang are exactly equal, i havent even mentioned the concepts of ancient chinese opposites, i like the stories andd philosophies about yin and yang,

but im not talking about this kind of balence, you see here on earth before humans started fucking around with nature in mass amounts, the world had a kind of balenced cycle, then humans built alot of indunstrial machines and started fucking with the ozone, im not in green peace or anything im not poiting any fingers, dont take offence to it im sorry if i offended you,

but im just saying there earth was ok before, and nature flourished better, now it looks kinda sick, all the rainforests cut down, over hunting population problems, chemical abuse, ozone layer pollution, to land sea air animals,
overpopulation of ur own species, someone said it before, we arent like mammels anymore, we are more like a virus that effects everything it touches, spreads mass muliplies, consumes its surroundings untill nothing is left then moves on and multiplies,

we have changed the earth, we are natural ofcourse, but what we do seriously effects everything around us and destroyes alot of other nature,
we arent the only destructive species, but we are by far the worst thing for the arth out of any other animal,

im not complaining im just saying we effected the before balence of the earth, the ozone didnt get them holes randomly, it was us, i was part f the problem aswell im sorry for it.

peace.

i dont say yin and yang are exactly equal, i havent even mentioned the concepts of ancient chinese opposites, i like the stories andd philosophies about yin and yang,

but im not talking about this kind of balence, you see here on earth before humans started fucking around with nature in mass amounts, the world had a kind of balenced cycle, then humans built alot of indunstrial machines and started fucking with the ozone, im not in green peace or anything im not poiting any fingers, dont take offence to it im sorry if i offended you,

but im just saying there earth was ok before, and nature flourished better, now it looks kinda sick, all the rainforests cut down, over hunting population problems, chemical abuse, ozone layer pollution, to land sea air animals,
overpopulation of ur own species, someone said it before, we arent like mammels anymore, we are more like a virus that effects everything it touches, spreads mass muliplies, consumes its surroundings untill nothing is left then moves on and multiplies,

we have changed the earth, we are natural ofcourse, but what we do seriously effects everything around us and destroyes alot of other nature,
we arent the only destructive species, but we are by far the worst thing for the arth out of any other animal,

im not complaining im just saying we effected the before balence of the earth, the ozone didnt get them holes randomly, it was us, i was part f the problem aswell im sorry for it.

peace.


But what I'm saying is that NATURE put us here. We got to where we are today because we were meant to be as we are today. So, perhaps, if it is truly natures will that we be like this, that we are leading up to something? That we aren't "fucking" with nature, we are simply altering it, and earth will become something new based on what we're doing to it?

Yes. And the fact we even know how old the universe is quite a step up from 'really long ego' in Tao philosophy.



Describe to me the 'chen' is inside your computer and then prove its existence? And then give me your poetic interpretation of how a computer works?

See, Taoism is neat, but it amounts basically to sensical poetry.

The Chinese scientists, at the time called 'Taoists', believed in 'chen' and didn't have room for what we call the scientific ideal. They believed you couldn't model the universe, since it was unknowable. And thus did not advance much farther than mechanical devices such the printing press or firecrackers.

The government in fact made no scientific discoveries. Their job was to keep a stable, ordered society in which technological pursuits besides immortality-science were discouraged. No vertical mobility between the classes. No aspirations to advance technology for the improvement of life.


Where did you get this information? You're delusional, we don't believe in any "chen". And a lot of ancient Taoists were alchemists, which at the time amounted to scientists! Fireworks was an alchemical invention, the powder was produced by taoist alchemists! By the time they invented the printing press, Taoism was really obscure, and to this day it remains so! So, again, I ask you, where did you get your info?

Where did you get this information?

James Burke, historian.


we don't believe in any "chen".

Chen zen, the spirit substance everywhere, in all things? I don't know the exact pronunciation...


And a lot of ancient Taoists were alchemists, which at the time amounted to scientists! Fireworks was an alchemical invention, the powder was produced by taoist alchemists!

Alchemists - or people searching for immortality. What's it called again, the philosophers stone?? Gundpowder was originally one 'immortality potion' made of rotten shit, piss and wood ash.

Are you saying that if I mix putrefied shit with various other nastiness and end up with a volatile substance that I 'amount to a scientist'? That puts Buddha1 in league with Einstein.


Anyways, I do find Taoist philosphy interesting. But to say that we will never know the truth about the universe because Taoism says we can't is just absurd.

But what I'm saying is that NATURE put us here. We got to where we are today because we were meant to be as we are today. So, perhaps, if it is truly natures will that we be like this, that we are leading up to something? That we aren't "fucking" with nature, we are simply altering it, and earth will become something new based on what we're doing to it?


well first thing is this, we cannot say we were put here for some kind of actual premeditated reason, nothing tells us directly that we were ment to be the way we have turned out to this very day,


but all that you said about altering the earth is true, but it dosent mean we were meant to do it to the earth just because its happening, that would be classed in the lines of having a destiny right?. wich is not proven,

peace.

I believe in kickin ass and chewin bubble gum. I do what I want. I believe that there isnt anything. Life is CREATED, it isnt inherent.

James Burke, historian.



Chen zen, the spirit substance everywhere, in all things? I don't know the exact pronunciation...



Alchemists - or people searching for immortality. What's it called again, the philosophers stone?? Gundpowder was originally one 'immortality potion' made of rotten shit, piss and wood ash.

Are you saying that if I mix putrefied shit with various other nastiness and end up with a volatile substance that I 'amount to a scientist'? That puts Buddha1 in league with Einstein.


Anyways, I do find Taoist philosphy interesting. But to say that we will never know the truth about the universe because Taoism says we can't is just absurd.


the energy that is everywhere, is Qi energy, there is also jing energy, and shen energy,

shen = spirit
Qi = breath/energy/life breath
jing = essence


shen is not given to people and it is not everywhere, you have to aquire shen through a conscious lifetime,

Qi is the life energy that flows through all living and natural things on earth, it is everywhere,

jing is your life essence, each person has a limited amount of jing, and you have to conserve it well, it cannot be replenished like Qi can, or earnt like shen can, when it depletes you die,






i think you have your energys and chinese teachings a little mixed up, its not your fault though i dont mind correcting i enjoy teaching people of the old ways, i dont 100% believe all of it but i have lived with these teachings my whole life, so i knnow alot about it and enjoy teaching and learning about it. and it is very usefull in day to day life learning the ancient chinese ways,
but in china there are 3 main sects, taoists, buddhists and confunctionist, but they do not seperate the 3 sects, they are all the same 3 and open to al of them, if you ask a chinese man if he is a buddhist confunctionist or daoist, he will be slightly confused how to answer,



peace.

James Burke, historian.



Chen zen, the spirit substance everywhere, in all things? I don't know the exact pronunciation...



Alchemists - or people searching for immortality. What's it called again, the philosophers stone?? Gundpowder was originally one 'immortality potion' made of rotten shit, piss and wood ash.

Are you saying that if I mix putrefied shit with various other nastiness and end up with a volatile substance that I 'amount to a scientist'? That puts Buddha1 in league with Einstein.


Anyways, I do find Taoist philosphy interesting. But to say that we will never know the truth about the universe because Taoism says we can't is just absurd.


You must be thinking of a different sect or something. The taoism I "follow", if you must say that, has no "chen". If it is energy in all life that you are referring to, it's chi, and there is no belief there, it's scientifically proven that that exists. If it's just the stuff of everything, that would be The Tao, hence taoism. In reference to alchemists, I was just thinking of people who brewed stuff out of stuff. Like chemists, just alchemists.

well first thing is this, we cannot say we were put here for some kind of actual premeditated reason, nothing tells us directly that we were ment to be the way we have turned out to this very day,


but all that you said about altering the earth is true, but it dosent mean we were meant to do it to the earth just because its happening, that would be classed in the lines of having a destiny right?. wich is not proven,

peace.


Is that to imply that everything must be proven? I personally believe that one forges one's own destiny with the choices one makes.

I certainly don't believe in any God because I don't need it, nonetheless its freakin 2006 and I think its about time to do some soul searching instead of creating imaginary friends in the sky. I haven't seen any Gods lately...have you? I think humans are capable of a lot of things themselves. I think philosophy is everywhere, every question asked regardless of its nature is a philosohical question- in other words the net result from an introspective and retrospective evaluation. This freakin world hasn't really given me anything or any reason to believe in anything except from playing my role, going to bed, and waking up in the morning. There are enough East and Western books filled with ideas to keep my brain running(running on empty that is).

the energy that is everywhere, is Qi energy, there is also jing energy, and shen energy,

shen = spirit
Qi = breath/energy/life breath
jing = essence


shen is not given to people and it is not everywhere, you have to aquire shen through a conscious lifetime,

Qi is the life energy that flows through all living and natural things on earth, it is everywhere,

jing is your life essence, each person has a limited amount of jing, and you have to conserve it well, it cannot be replenished like Qi can, or earnt like shen can, when it depletes you die,






i think you have your energys and chinese teachings a little mixed up, its not your fault though i dont mind correcting i enjoy teaching people of the old ways, i dont 100% believe all of it but i have lived with these teachings my whole life, so i knnow alot about it and enjoy teaching and learning about it. and it is very usefull in day to day life learning the ancient chinese ways,
but in china there are 3 main sects, taoists, buddhists and confunctionist, but they do not seperate the 3 sects, they are all the same 3 and open to al of them, if you ask a chinese man if he is a buddhist confunctionist or daoist, he will be slightly confused how to answer,



peace.


A wise man would say that he is all, and yet none.

destiny is a very funny thing, because its actually true, but at the same time theres no telling if its all planned out beforehand,


but destiny does exist, this is actually true, because no matter what you do in life you can only do it once at that point in time, whatever you do it is done and cannot be undone, so in a very real sense everyone has 1 path to tread down, and fullfills his destiny, but the real mystery about this question is this,


how do you know that its set out beforehand,


but everyman carvs his own destiny this is true man,


peace.

A wise man would say that he is all, and yet none.


i also agree with this,



one who is wise will claim nothing yet be everything,


peace

I certainly don't believe in any God because I don't need it, nonetheless its freakin 2006 and I think its about time to do some soul searching instead of creating imaginary friends in the sky. I haven't seen any Gods lately...have you? I think humans are capable of a lot of things themselves. I think philosophy is everywhere, every question asked regardless of its nature is a philosohical question- in other words the net result from an introspective and retrospective evaluation. This freakin world hasn't really given me anything or any reason to believe in anything except from playing my role, going to bed, and waking up in the morning. There are enough East and Western books filled with ideas to keep my brain running(running on empty that is).




yes what you said is healthy,


but about the "its 2006 thing" hmmm well thats a little harsh and biast with your own opinions, because seriously god is a very real possibility, tot hink there definitely is no god, is as wise as to think you definately know there is a god,


its just speculation from your own point of view,


an eternal force that gave birth to this current existance, that is limitless would actually explai alot of things, and is not stupid to believe in such a bieng, you are just thinking about holybooks religion and the western view of god or eastern whatever you choose,


but put religion aside put jesus aside put culture and faith aside, just thik about god as an energy force that exists always and created the current universe, you dont need a book to let you make your own decision about the possibility of god, the universe can do amazing things it wouldent totally supprise me if god was real.


i dont believe in god thogh but its a possibility.


peace.

yes what you said is healthy,


but about the "its 2006 thing" hmmm well thats a little harsh and biast with your own opinions, because seriously god is a very real possibility, tot hink there definitely is no god, is as wise as to think you definately know there is a god,


its just speculation from your own point of view,


an eternal force that gave birth to this current existance, that is limitless would actually explai alot of things, and is not stupid to believe in such a bieng, you are just thinking about holybooks religion and the western view of god or eastern whatever you choose,


but put religion aside put jesus aside put culture and faith aside, just thik about god as an energy force that exists always and created the current universe, you dont need a book to let you make your own decision about the possibility of god, the universe can do amazing things it wouldent totally supprise me if god was real.


i dont believe in god thogh but its a possibility.


peace.



I look at God as a word. A label, a description, an image placed upon one singular thing, the "higher being". Christians, God, Islam, Allah, to we taoists, it is the tao. Not a being but a thing. Everything. It is within us, we are within it, and it is "represented" to the best of our capabilities by yin and yang.

I do believe the possibility of a higher conciousness for one other reason. No concious animal naturaly exists in a place it does not understand. In fact if nature did its work right the concious entity will totally understand its enviroment- like a Wolf in the forrests or Tillapia in fresh water. A wolf understands the forrests more than it does the suburbs. However we humans are here in a place that constantly amazes us to say the least. In fact there is no where we can go without asking questions and constant scrutny. This goes to show that we are the universe or more precisely inside a universe inverse of ours, which enables us to see all. What do I mean by inverse universe? For you to see the totality of something you have to be outside its framework and dimension, thus we are the most artificial thing in this natural universe or dimension, certainly we came from somewhere or someone else higher. Maybe there are other dimensions as string theory has it, this I don't know.This I know, all knowledge has to do with survival. So from the day of our inception we must have survived relatively far longer than most books print, maybe even for eternity considering our vast capabilities and knowledge. But the mind, which stores and processes knowledge does not remain inside us but is both inside and more extensively outside. So the same "artificial" enviroment we are in is responsible for keeping us alive. Some kind of game? Thats what all of life is, and thats what Gods play...a game. What else do you do when you are an all powerfull and all knowing conciousness? So I never believed or pondered over higher conciousness because I always knew that I was already serving my purpose by being here.

"knowledge absolutely has no reason to be true or false, it is a mere mechanism of your survival"

yeah, i also think about that as a real possibility, if i were an allmighty bieng such as god, i would create something like this,


and ofcourse people will say well why dosent god show itself to us, well that would defeat the game wouldent it, nobody would try anymore if god just came down and said right,


here are the answers to everything, i do exist and i know it all, now you know it all, see ya later and enjoy the info!,

it would make everything boring and predictable, no more mystery no more game no more motivation, everybody would just stop doing interesting wierd things, and thats not good viewing,


peace.

Yep, its either a game or we are a raw material for another end product. This being true if there is a higher conciousness. If there isn't then there is free will for goodness sakes and we shall continue enjoying our own game- the socio-economic society.

yeah, i also think about that as a real possibility, if i were an allmighty bieng such as god, i would create something like this,


and ofcourse people will say well why dosent god show itself to us, well that would defeat the game wouldent it, nobody would try anymore if god just came down and said right,


here are the answers to everything, i do exist and i know it all, now you know it all, see ya later and enjoy the info!,

it would make everything boring and predictable, no more mystery no more game no more motivation, everybody would just stop doing interesting wierd things, and thats not good viewing,


peace.


All the christians would party for the next millennium, that probably wouldn't be too boring...unless you're atheist, then you'd be suicidal...

but thats what i mean, christians partying, that wont be so fun from my opinion, and for god to view them just partying for 2000 years would bore him most likely, he most likely likes all of this war and wierdness, and tech and human imagination and art, everyone would just stop doing everything, if you have no mystery why would you use an imagination?, it would die, artistic creation would die, passion would die, drama and emotions would dissapear, and we wouldent be as fun and different if we knew it all,


peace.

but thats what i mean, christians partying, that wont be so fun from my opinion, and for god to view them just partying for 2000 years would bore him most likely, he most likely likes all of this war and wierdness, and tech and human imagination and art, everyone would just stop doing everything, if you have no mystery why would you use an imagination?, it would die, artistic creation would die, passion would die, drama and emotions would dissapear, and we wouldent be as fun and different if we knew it all,


peace.


No it wouldn't. Is your life devoted to the opposition of God? Not according to what you've previously typed. I've never said seriously that I DON'T believe in God, I usually say I neither believe nor disbelieve. So, if he turns up and says that he does exist and reveals all mystery, the christians will get bored because there's no more mystery to what THEY believe in. I, however, highly doubt that even God knows EVERYTHING. There is no permanence, or totality, or absolution, if God is more powerful and wiser than us, than there is something more powerful and wiser than he.

possibly, but then the person who if more powerfull than him is the true god, because god would be the powerfull one not the guy who is second to him, that would be gods secutary, and gods lawyer is more powerfull than them all combined,


peace.

EmptyForceOfChi,

1) Don't daoists believe that things like rocks and trees have shen in them? Correct me if I'm wrong

2) Is jing the chinese term for sexual energy, or is that qi?


and it is very usefull in day to day life learning the ancient chinese ways

After having tried Qi Gong a couple times, I must agree with you. Not quite as stupid as it looks

possibly, but then the person who if more powerfull than him is the true god, because god would be the powerfull one not the guy who is second to him, that would be gods secutary, and gods lawyer is more powerfull than them all combined,


peace.



Ah, but that cycle would keep going, because God's lawyer needs an attorney general, and an attorney general needs a president, and so on.

EmptyForceOfChi,

1) Don't daoists believe that things like rocks and trees have shen in them? Correct me if I'm wrong

2) Is jing the chinese term for sexual energy, or is that qi?



After having tried Qi Gong a couple times, I must agree with you. Not quite as stupid as it looks


1) No, again, in my philosophy there is no shen, there is the tao. The tao embodies all things, the rocks, the trees, space, time, the body, the mind, the spirit, all of it. It is part of us, we are part of it, and therefor it, and we, are everything.

2) I have no idea what sexual energy is in chinese protocol, I just stick to the term horniness.

EmptyForceOfChi,

1) Don't daoists believe that things like rocks and trees have shen in them? Correct me if I'm wrong

2) Is jing the chinese term for sexual energy, or is that qi?



After having tried Qi Gong a couple times, I must agree with you. Not quite as stupid as it looks


yeah just want to say first off, even if all the energy theorys within chinese internal arts are false, and even if they arent as mystical as they once seemed, they are still practical and serve as good use with health fitness, and a healthy mind state,


jing is your essence, it is explained to be connected with sexual energy yeah, it is said the more you mate/masterbate the more you deplete your jing,


and no trees and rocks do not have shen, they have sheng Qi though (chi) there are different types of Qi energy, sheng qi, sha qi and si qi, all of these flow through nature and all natural things,


but shen has to be earned you cannot be given a spirit, you have to aquire it through life, you can live a life without shen atall, some people never aquire shen atall,

you cannot aquire shen without true consciousness and awareness of the self, every person has the ability to aquire it, but not everyone does.

1) No, again, in my philosophy there is no shen, there is the tao. The tao embodies all things, the rocks, the trees, space, time, the body, the mind, the spirit, all of it. It is part of us, we are part of it, and therefor it, and we, are everything.

2) I have no idea what sexual energy is in chinese protocol, I just stick to the term horniness.


explore the other chinese philosophies, the dao is not the true dao,
the dao script itself tells you not to trust the script infront of you,
read between the lines, your on a good pat though with daoism,
but the dao you seek you will not find, you understand but it is that that you understand that you cannot find,

i will gather things for you to read, i recomend you read them if your seriously going to follow the way, it is not easy.


peace,

explore the other chinese philosophies, the dao is not the true dao,
the dao script itself tells you not to trust the script infront of you,
read between the lines, your on a good pat though with daoism,
but the dao you seek you will not find, you understand but it is that that you understand that you cannot find,

i will gather things for you to read, i recomend you read them if your seriously going to follow the way, it is not easy.


peace,


I know it isn't easy, that's why I'm doing it. I'm not limiting myself to that one philosophy, just that one I understand most, and therefor that's the one I usually profess.

{01} There are ways but the Way is uncharted ...
There are ways but the Way is uncharted;
There are names but not nature in words:
Nameless indeed is the source of creation
But things have a mother and she has a name.
The secret waits for the insight
Of eyes unclouded by longing;
Those who are bound by desire
See only the outward container.

These two come paired but distinct
By there names.
Of all things profound,
Say that their pairing is deepest,
The gate to the root of the world.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{02} Duality and the Wise Man's Office ...
Since the world points up beauty as such,
There is ugliness too.
If goodness is taken as goodness,
Wickedness enters as well.
For is and is-not come together;
Hard and easy are complementary;
Long and short are relative;
High and low are comparative;
Pitch and sound make harmony;
Before and after are a sequence.

Indeed the Wise Man's office
Is to work by being still
He teaches not by speach
But by accomplishment;
He does for everything,
Neglecting none;
Their life he gives to all,
Possessing none;
And what he brings to pass
Depends on no one else.
As he succeeds,
He takes no credit
And just because he does not take it,
Credit never leaves him.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{03} The People and the Wise Man's Policy ...
If those who are excellent find no preferment,
The people will cease to contend for promotion.
If goods that are hard to obtain are not favored,
The people will cease to turn robbers or bandits.
If things much desired are kept under cover,
Disturbance will cease in the minds of the people.
The Wise Man's policy, accordingly,
Will be to empty people's hearts and minds,
To fill their bellies, weaken their ambition,
Give them sturdy frames and always so,
To keep them uniformed, without desire,
And knowing ones not venturing to act.

Be still while you work
And keep full control
Over all.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{04} The Nature of the Way ...
The Way is a void,
Used but never filled:
An abyss it is,
From which all things come.
It blunts sharpness,
Resolves tangles;
It tempers light,
Subdues turmoil.

A deep pool it is,
Never to run dry!
Whose offspring it may be
I do not know:
It is like a preface to God.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{05} The Thoughts and Talk of the Wise Man ..
Is then the world unkind?
And does it treat all things
Like straw dogs used in magic rights?
The Wise man too, is he unkind?
And does he treat the folk
Like straw dogs made to throw away?
Between the earth and sky
The space is like a bellows,
Empty but unspent.
When moved its gift is copious.

Much talk means much exhaustion;
Better far it is to keep your thoughts!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{06} The Valley Spirit ..
The valley spirit is not dead;
They say it is the mystic female.
Her gateway is, they further say,
The base of heaven and earth.
Constantly, and so forever,
Use her without labour.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{07} The Wise Man ... Being Last & UnSelfish
The sky is everlasting
And the earth is very old.
Why so? Because the world
Exists not for itself;
It can and will live on.
The Wise Man chooses to be last
And so becomes the first of all;
Denying self, he too is saved.
For does he not fulfillment find
In being an unselfish man?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{08} Peace - the Goal of the Way ...
The highest goodness, water-like,
Does good to everything and goes
Unmurmuring to places men despise;
But so, is close in nature to the Way.
If the good of the house is from land,
Or the good of the mind is depth,
Or love is the virtue of friendship,
Or honesty blesses one's talk,
Or in government, goodness is order,
Or in business, skill is admired,
Or the worth of an act lies in timing,
Then peace is the goal of the Way
By which no one ever goes astray.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{09} To Know when to stop ...
To take all you want
Is never as good
As to stop when you should.
Scheme and be sharp
And you'll not keep it long.
One can never guard
His home when it's full
Of jade and fine gold:
Wealth, power and pride
Bequeath their own doom.
When fame and success
Come to you, then retire.
This is the ordained Way.


{10} The Mystic Virtue ...
Can you govern your animal soul, hold to the One and never depart from it?
Can you throttle your breath, down to the softness of breath in a child?
Can you purify your mystic vision and wash it until it is spotless?
Can you love all your people, rule over the land without being known?
Can you be like a female, and passively open and shut heaven's gates?
Can you keep clear in your mind the four quarters of earth and not interfere?
Quicken them, feed them;
Quicken but do not possess them.
Act and be independent;
Be the chief but never the lord:
This describes the mystic virtue.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{11} The Nature of Usefulness ...
Thirty spokes will converge
In the hub of a wheel;
But the use of the cart
Will depend on the part
Of the hub that is void.
With a wall all around
A clay bowl is molded;
But the use of the bowl
Will depend on the part
Of the bowl that is void.

Cut out windows and doors
In the house as you build;
But the use of the house
Will depend on the space
In the walls that is void.

So advantage is had
From whatever is there;
But usefulness rises
From whatever is not.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{12} Choice and Discrimination ...
The five colors darken the eye;
The five sounds will deaden the ear;
The five flavors weary the taste;
Chasing the beasts of the field
Will drive a man mad.
The goods that are hard to procure
Are hobbles that slow walking feet.
So the Wise Man will do
What his belly dictates
And never the sight of his eyes.
Thus he will choose this but not that.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{13} The Nature of Favour and Disgrace ...
"Favor, like disgrace
Brings trouble with it;
High rank, like self,
Involves acute distress."
What does that mean, to say
That "favor, like disgrace
Brings trouble with it"?
When favor is bestowed
On one of low degree,

Trouble will come with it.
The loss of favor too
Means trouble for that man.
This, then, is what is meant
By "favor, like disgrace
Brings trouble with it."

What does it mean, to say
That "rank, like self,
Involves acute distress"?
I suffer most because
Of me and selfishness.
If I were selfless, then
What suffering would I bear?

In governing the world,
Let rule entrusted be
To him who treats his rank
As if it were his soul;
World sovereignty can be
Committed to that man
Who loves all people
As he loves himself.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{14} They Call it Elusive ...
They call it elusive, and say
That one looks
But it never appears.
They say that indeed it is rare,
Since one listens,
But never a sound.
Subtle, they call it, and say
That one grasps it
But never gets hold.
These three complaints amount
To only one, which is
Beyond all resolution.
At rising, it does not illumine;
At setting, no darkness ensues;
It stretches far back
To that nameless estate
Which existed before the creation.

Describe it as form yet unformed;
As shape that is still without shape;
Or say it is vagueness confused:
One meets it and it has no front;
One follows and there is no rear.

If you hold ever fast
To that most ancient Way,
You may govern today.
Call truly that knowledge
Of primal beginnings
The clue to the Way.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{15} The Ancient masters of the Way of Nature ...
The excellent masters of old,
Subtle, mysterious, mystic, acute,
Were much too profound for their times.
Since they were not then understood,
It is better to tell how they looked.
Like men crossing streams in the winter, How cautious!
As if all around there were danger, How watchful!
As if they were guests on every occasion, How dignified!
Like ice just beginning to melt, Self-effacing!
Like a wood-block untouched by a tool, How sincere!
Like a valley awaiting a guest, How receptive!
Like a torrent that rushes along, And so turbid!

Who, running dirty, comes clean like still waters?
Who, being quiet, moves others to fullness of life?
It is he who, embracing the Way, is not greedy;
Who endures wear and tear without needing renewal.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{16}The Way and Immortality ...
Touch ultimate emptiness,
Hold steady and still.
All things work together:
I have watched them reverting,
And have seen how they flourish
And return again, each to his roots.

This, I say, is the stillness:
A retreat to one's roots;
Or better yet, return
To the will of God,
Which is, I say, to constancy.
The knowledge of constancy
I call enlightenment and say
That not to know it
Is blindness that works evil.

But when you know
What eternally is so,
You have stature
And stature means righteousness
And righteousness is kingly
And kingliness divine
And divinity is the Way
Which is final.

Then, though you die,
You shall not perish.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{17} The Ruler of the People ...
As for him who is highest,
The people just know he is there.
His deputy's cherished and praised;
Of the third, they are frightened;
The fourth, they depise and revile.
If you trust people less than enough,
Some of them never trust you.
He is aloof, as if his talk
Were priced beyond the purchasing;
But once his project is contrived,
The folk will want to say of it:
"Of course! We did it by ourselves!"



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{18} The Decline of the Way ...
The mighty Way declined among the folk
And then came kindness and morality.
When wisdom and intelligence appeared,
They brought with them a great hypocrisy.
The six relations were no more at peace,
So codes were made to regulate our homes.
The fatherland grew dark, confused by strife:



{19} The Simplicity of Life ...
Get rid of the wise men!
Put out the professors!
Then people will profit
A hundredfold over.
Away with the kind ones;
Those righteous men too!
And let people return
To the graces of home.
Root out the artisans;
Banish the profiteers!
And bandits and robbers
Will not come to plunder.
But if these three prove not enough
To satisfy the mind and heart,
More relevant, then, let there be
A visible simplicity of life,
Embracing unpretentious ways,
And small self-interest
And poverty of coveting.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{20} On the Solitary Nature ...
Be done with rote learning
And its attendant vexations;
For is there distinction
Of a "yes" from a "yea"
Comparable now to the gulf
Between evil and good?
"What all men fear, I too must fear"-
How barren and pointless a thought!
The reveling of multitudes
At the feast of Great Sacrifice,
Or up on the terrace
At carnival in spring,
Leave me, alas, unmoved, alone,
Like a child that has never smiled.

Lazily, I drift
As though I had no home.
All others have enough to spare;
I am the one left out.
I have the mind of a fool,
Muddled and confused!
When common people scintillate
I alone make shadows.
Vulgar folks are sharp and knowing:
Only I am melancholy.
Restless like the ocean,
Blown about, I cannot stop.
Other men can find employment,
But I am stubborn; I am mean.

Alone I am and different,
Because I prize and seek
My sustenance from the Mother!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{21} The Omnipresent Virtue ...
The omnipresent Virtue will take shape
According only to the Way.
The Way itself is like some thing
Seen in a dream, elusive, evading one.
In it are images, elusive, evading one.
In it are things like shadows in twilight.
In it are essences, subtle but real,
Embedded in truth.
From of old until now,
Under names without end,
The First, the Beginning is seen.
How do I know the beginning of all,
What its nature may be?
By these!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{22} The Crooked shall be made Straight ...
The crooked shall be made straight
And the rough places plain;
The pools shall be filled
And the worn renewed;
The needy shall receive
And the rich shall be perplexed.
So the Wise Man cherishes the One,
As a standard to the world:
Not displaying himself,
He is famous;
Not asserting himself,
He is distinguished;
Not boasting his powers,
He is effective;
Taking no pride in himself,
He is chief.

Because he is no competitor,
No one in all the world
can compete with him.

The saying of the men of old
Is not in vain:
"The crooked shall be made straight-"
To be perfect, return to it.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{23} Sparing indeed is the Nature of its Talk ...
Sparing indeed is nature of its talk:
The whirlwind will not last the morning out;
The cloudburst ends before the day is done.
What is it that behaves itself like this?
The earth and sky! And if it be that these
Cut short their speech, how much more yet should man!
If you work by the Way,
You will be of the Way;
If you work through its virtue
you will be given the virtue;
Abandon either one
And both abandon you.

Gladly then the Way receives
Those who choose to walk in it;
Gladly too its power upholds
Those who choose to use it well;
Gladly will abandon greet
Those who to abandon drift.

Little faith is put in them
Whose faith is small.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{24} The Persons of the Way are humble ...
On tiptoe your stance is unsteady;
Long strides make your progress unsure;
Show off and you get no attention;
Your boasting will mean you have failed;
Asserting yourself brings no credit;
Be proud and you will never lead.
To persons of the Way, these traits
Can only bring distrust; they seem
Like extra food for parasites.
So those who choose the Way,
Will never give them place.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{25}Before the Earth or Sky Began ...
Something there is, whose veiled creation was
Before the earth or sky began to be;
So silent, so aloof and so alone,
It changes not, nor fails, but touches all:
Conceive it as the mother of the world.
I do not know its name:
A name for it is "Way";
Pressed for designation,
I call it Great.
Great means outgoing,
Outgoing, far-reaching,
Far-reaching, return.

The Way is great,
The sky is great,
The earth is great,
The king also is great.
Within the realm
These four are great;
The king but stands
For one of them.

Man conforms to the earth;
The earth conforms to the sky;
The sky conforms to the Way;
The Way conforms to its own nature.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{26} The Place of Peace ...
The heavy is foundation for the light;
So quietness is master of the deed.
The Wise Man, though he travel all the day,
Will not be seperated from his goods.
So even if the scene is glorious to view,
He keeps his place, at peace, above it all.

For how can one who rules
Ten thousand chariots
Give up to lighter moods
As all the world may do?
If he is trivial,
His ministers are lost;
If he is strenuous,
There is no master then.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{27} The Good Man and the Bad Man ...
A good runner leaves no tracks.
A good speech has no flaws to censure.

A good computer uses no tallies.

A good door is well shut without bolts and cannot be opened.

A good knot is tied without rope and cannot be loosed.

The Wise Man is always good at helping people, so that none are cast out;
he is always good at saving things, so that none are thrown away.
This is called applied intelligence.

Surely the good man is the bad man's teacher;
and the bad man is the good man's business.
If the one does not respect his teacher,
or the other doesn't love his business,
his error is very great.

This is indeed an important secret.


{28} The Nature of Opposites and Change ...
Be aware of your masculine nature;
But by keeping the feminine way,
You shall be to the world like a canyon,
Where the Virtue eternal abides,
And go back to become as a child.
Be aware of the white all around you;
But rememb'ring the black that is there,
You shall be to the world like a tester,
Whom the Virtue eternal, unerring,
Redirects to the infinite past.

Be aware of your glory and honor;
But in never relinquishing shame,
You shall be to the world like a valley,
Where Virtue eternal, sufficient,
Sends you back to the Virginal Block.

When the Virginal Block is asunder,
And is made into several tools,
To the ends of the Wise Man directed,
They become then his chief officers:
For "The Master himself does not carve."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{29} The World is a Sacred Vessel ...
As for those who would take the whole world
To tinker as they see fit,
I observe that they never succeed:
For the world is a sacred vessel
Not made to be altered by man.
The tinker will spoil it;
Usurpers will lose it.
For indeed there are things
That must move ahead,
While others must lag;
And some that feel hot,
While others feel cold;
And some that are strong,
While others are weak;
And vigorous ones,
While others worn out.

So the Wise Man discards
Extreme inclinations
To make sweeping judgements,
Or to a life of excess.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{30} The Means of the Way ...
To those who would help
The ruler of men
By means of the Way:
Let him not with his militant might
Try to conquer the world;
This tactic is like to recoil.
For where armies have marched,
There do briars spring up;
Where great hosts are impressed,
Years of hunger and evil ensue.

The good man's purpose once attained,
He stops at that;
He will not press for victory.
His point once made, he does not boast,
Or celebrate the goal he gained,
Or proudly indicate the spoils.
He won the day because he must:
But not by force or violence.

That things with age decline in strength,
You well may say, suits not the Way;
And not to suit the Way is early death.



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{31} Weapons at best are tools of bad omen ...
Weapons at best are tools of bad omen,
Loathed and avoided by those of the Way.
In the usage of men of good breeding,
Honor is had at the left;
Good omens belong on the left
Bad omens belong on the right;
And warriors press to the right!
When the general stands at the right
His lieutenant is placed at the left.
So the usage of men of great power
Follows that of the funeral rite.

Weapons are tools of bad omen,
By gentlemen not to be used;
But when it cannot be avoided,
They use them with calm and restraint.
Even in victory's hour
These tools are unlovely to see;
For those who admire them truly
Are men who in murder delight.

As for those who delight to do murder,
It is certain they never can get
From the world what they sought when ambition
Urged them to power and rule.

A multitude slain!- and their death
Is a matter for grief and for tears;
The victory after a conflict
Is a theme for a funeral rite.



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{32} The Way eternal has no name ...
The Way eternal has no name.
A block of wood untooled, though small,
May still excel the world.
And if the king and nobles could
Retain its potency for good,
Then everything would freely give
Allegiance to their rule.
The earth and sky would then conspire
To bring the sweet dew down;
And evenly it would be given
To folk without constraining power.

Creatures came to be with order's birth,
And once they had appeared,
Came also knowledge of repose,
And with that was security.

In this world,
Compare those of the Way
To torrents that flow
Into river and sea.



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{33} Wisdom and Enlightenment ...
It is wisdom to know others;
It is enlightenment to know one's self.
The conqueror of men is powerful;
The master of himself is strong.

It is wealth to be content;
It is willful to force one's way on others.

Endurance is to keep one's place;
Long life it is to die and not perish.



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{34} The Great Way OverFlows on every Side ...
O the great Way o'erflows
And spreads on every side!
All beings come from it;
No creature is denied.
But having called them forth,
It calls not one its own.
It feeds and clothes them all
And will not be their lord.
Without desire always,
It seems of slight import.
Yet, nonetheless, in this
Its greatness still appears:
When they return to it,
No creature meets a lord.

The Wise Man, therefore, while he is alive,
Will never make a show of being great:
And that is how his greatness is achieved.



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{35} The great Form without form ...
Once grasp the great Form without form,
And you roam where you will
With no evil to fear,
Calm, peaceful, at ease.
At music and viands
The wayfarer stops.
But the Way, when declared,
Seems thin and so flavorless!

It is nothing to look at
And nothing to hear;
But used, it will prove
Inexhaustible.



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{36} The Way of Subtle Light ...
What is to be shrunken
Is first stretched out;
What is to be weakened
Is first made strong;
What will be thrown over
Is first raised up;
What will be withdrawn
Is first bestowed.
This indeed is
Subtle Light;
The gentle way
Will overcome
The hard and strong.
As fish should not
Get out of pools,
The realm's edged tools
Should not be shown
To anybody.


{46} The Way of Contentment ...
When the Way rules the world,
Coach horses fertilize the fields;
When the Way does not rule,
War horses breed in the parks.
No sin can exceed
Incitement to envy;
No calamity's worse
Than to be discontented,
Nor is there an omen
More dreadful than coveting.
But once be contented,
And truly you'll always be so.




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{47} The world may be known without leaving the house ...
The world may be known
Without leaving the house;
The Way may be seen
Apart from the windows.
The further you go,
The less you will know.
Accordingly, the Wise Man
Knows without going,
Sees without seeing,
Does without doing.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{48} The student learns by daily increment ...
The student learns by daily increment.
The Way is gained by daily loss,
Loss upon loss until
At last comes rest.
By letting go, it all gets done;
The world is won by those who let it go!
But when you try and try,
The world is then beyond the winning.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{49} Wise Men hear and see ...
The Wise Man's mind is free
But tuned to people's need:
"Alike to be good and bad
I must be good,
For Virtue is goodness.
To honest folk
And those dishonest ones
Alike, I proffer faith,
For Virtue is faithful."
The Wise Man, when abroad,
Impartial to the world,
Does not divide or judge.
But people everywhere
Mark well his ears and eyes;
For wise men hear and see
As little children do.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{50} How best to be at peace ...
On leaving life, to enter death:
Thirteen members form a living body;
A corpse has thirteen, too:
Thirteen spots by which a man may pass
From life to death. Why so?
Because his way of life
Is much too gross.
As I have heard, the man who knows
On land how best to be at peace
Will never meet a tiger or a buffalo;
In battle, weapons do not touch his skin.
There is no place the tiger's claws can grip;
Or with his horn, the buffalo can jab;
Or where the soldier can insert his sword.
Why so? In him there is no place of death.




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{51} The Mystic Power ...
The Way brings forth,
Its virtue fosters them,
With matter they take shape,
And circumstance perfects them all:
That is why all things
Do honor the Way
And venerate its power.
The exaltation of the Way,
The veneration of its power,
Come not by fate or decree;
But always just because
By nature it is so.

So when the Way brings forth,
Its power fosters all:
They grow, are reared,
And fed and housed until
They come to ripe maturity.
You shall give life to things
But never possess them;
Your work shall depend on none;
You shall be chief but never lord.

This describes the mystic power.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{52} Practicing constancy ...
It began with a matrix:
The world had a mother
Whose sons can be known
As ever, by her.
But if you know them,
You'll keep close to her
As long as you live
And suffer no harm.
Stop up your senses;
Close up your doors;
Be not exhausted
As long as you live.
Open your senses;
Be busier still:
To the end of your days
There's no help for you.

You are bright, it is said,
If you see what is small;
A store of small strengths
Makes you strong.
By the use of its light,
Make your eyes again bright
From evil to lead you away.

This is called "practicing constancy."




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{53} Walking on the mighty Way ...
When I am walking on the mighty Way,
Let me but know the very least I may,
And I shall only fear to leave the road.
The mighty Way is easy underfoot,
But people still prefer the little paths.
The royal court is dignified, sedate
, While farmers' fields are overgrown with weeds;
The granaries are empty and yet they
Are clad in rich-embroidered silken gowns.
They have sharp swords suspended at their sides;
With glutted wealth, they gorge with food and drink.

It is, the people say,
The boastfulness of brigandage,
But surely not the Way!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{54} Set firm in the Way: none shall uproot you ...
Set firm in the Way: none shall uproot you;
Cherish it well and none shall estrange you;
Your children's children faithful shall serve
Your forebears at the altar of your house.
Cultivate the Way yourself,
and your Virtue will be genuine.
Cultivate it in the home,
and its Virtue will overflow.
Cultivate it in the village,
and the village will endure.
Cultivate it in the realm,
and the realm will flourish.
Cultivate it in the world,
and Virtue will be universal.

Accordingly,


One will be judged by the Man of the Way;
Homes will be viewed through the Home of the Way;
And the Village shall measure the village;
And the Realm, for all realms, shall be standard;
And the World, to this world, shall be heaven.
How do I know the world is like this?
By this.


55} Harmony experienced is known as constancy ...
Rich in virtue, like an infant,
Noxious insects will not sting him;
Wild beasts will not attack his flesh
Nor birds of prey sink claws in him.
His bones are soft, his sinews weak,
His grip is nonetheless robust;
Of sexual union unaware,
His organs all completely formed,
His vital force is at its height.
He shouts all day, does not get hoarse:
Hie person is a harmony.

Harmony experienced is known as constancy;
Constancy experienced is called enlightenment;
Exuberant vitality is ominous, they say;
A bent for vehemence is called aggressiveness.

That things with age decline in strength,
You well may say, suits not the Way;
And not to suit the Way is early death.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{56} Those who know do not talk and talkers do not know ...
Those who know do not talk
And talkers do not know.
Stop your senses,
Close the doors;
Let sharp things be blunted,
Tangles resolved,
The light tempered
And turmoil subdued;
For this is mystic unity
In which the Wise Man is moved
Neither by affection
Nor yet by estrangement
Or profit or loss
Or honor or shame.
Accordingly, by all the world,
He is held highest.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{57} The world is won by refaining ...
"Govern the realm by the right,
And battles by stratagem."
The world is won by refaining.
How do I know this is so?
By this:

As taboos increase, people grow poorer;
When weapons abound, the state grows chaotic;
Where skills multiply, novelties flourish;
As statutes increase, more criminals start.

So the Wise Man will say:

As I refrain, the people will reform:
Since I like quiet, they will keep order;
When I forebear, the people will prosper;
When I want nothing, they will be honest.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{58} Wise Men hear and see ...
Listlessly govern:

Happy your people;
Govern exactingly:
Restless your people.
"Bad fortune will
Promote the good;
Good fortune, too,
Gives rise to the bad."

But who can know to what that leads?
For it is wrong and would assign
To right the strangest derivations
And would mean that goodness
Is produced by magic means!
Has man thus been so long astray?

Accordingly, the Wise Man
Is square but not sharp,
Honest but not malign,
Straight but not severe,
Bright but not dazzling.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{59} "There's nothing else like stores saved up." ...
"For ruling men or serving God,
There's nothing else like stores saved up."
By "stores saved up" is meant forehandedness,
Accumulate Virtue, such that nothing
Can resist it and its limit
None can guess: such infinite resource
Allows the jurisdiction of the king;
Whose kingdom then will long endure
If it provides the Mother an abode.
Indeed it is the deeply rooted base,
The firm foundation of the Way
To immortality of self and name.




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{60} Rule a large country as small fish are cooked ...
Rule a large country
As small fish are cooked.
The evil spirits of the world
Lose sanction as divinities
When government proceeds
According to the Way;
But even if they do not lose
Their ghostly countenance and right,
The people take no harm from them;
And if the spirits cannot hurt the folk,
The Wise Man surely does no hurt to them.

Since then the Wise Man and the people
Harm each other not at all,
Their several virtues should converge.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{61} The great land is a place to which the streams descend ...
The great land is a place
To which the streams descend;
It is the concourse and
The female of the world:
Quiescent, underneath,
It overcomes the male.
By quietness and by humility
The great land then puts down the small
And gets it for its own;
But small lands too absorb the great
By their subservience.
Thus some lie low, designing conquest's ends;
While others lowly are, by nature bent
To conquer all the rest.

The great land's foremost need is to increase
The number of its folk;
The small land needs above all else to find
Its folk more room to work.
That both be served and each attain its goal
The great land should attempt humility.




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{62} The good man's treasure is the bad man's refuge ...
Like the gods of the shrine in the home,
So the Way and its mystery waits
In the world of material things:
The good man's treasure,
The bad man's refuge.
Fair wordage is ever for sale;
Fair manners are worn like a cloak;
But why should there be such waste
Of the badness in men?

On the day of the emperor's crowning,
When the three noble dukes are appointed,
Better than chaplets of jade
Drawn by a team of four horses,
Bring the Way as your tribute.

How used the ancients to honor the Way?
Didn't they say that the seeker may find it,
And that sinners who find are forgiven?
So did they lift up the Way and its Virtue
Above everything else in the world.




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{63} Act in repose - Choosing hardship ...
Act in repose;
Be at rest when you work;
Relish unflavored things.
Great or small,
Frequent or rare,
Requite anger with virtue.
Take hard jobs in hand
While they are easy;
And great affairs too
While they are small.
The troubles of the world
Cannot be solved except
Before they grow too hard.
The business of the world
Cannot be done except
While relatively small.
The Wise Man, then, throughout his life
Does nothing great and yet achieves
A greatness of his own.

Again, a promise lightly made
Inspires little confidence;
Or often trivial, sure that man
Will often come to grief.
Choosing hardship, then, the Wise Man
Never meets with hardship all his life.


{64} Be as careful of the end as you were of the beginning ...
A thing that is still is easy to hold.
Given no omen, it is easy to plan.
Soft things are easy to melt.
Small particles scatter easily.
The time to take care is before it is done.
Establish order before confusion sets in.
Tree trunks around which you can reach with
your arms were at first only miniscule sprouts.
A nine-storied terrace began with a clod.
A thousand-mile journey began with a foot put down.
Doing spoils it, grabbing misses it;
So the Wise Man refrains from doing
and doesn't spoil anything;
He grabs at nothing so never misses.

People are constantly spoiling a project when
it lacks only a step to completion.

To avoid making a mess of it, be as careful of
the end as you were of the beginning.

So the Wise Man wants the unwanted;
he sets no high value on anything
because it is hard to get.
He studies what others neglect
and restores to the world what multitudes have passed by.
His object is to restore everything to its natural course,
but he dares take no steps to that end.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{65} Those ancients who were skilled in the Way ...
Those ancients who were skilled in the Way
Did not enlighten people by their rule
But had them ever held in ignorance:
The more the folk know what is going on
The harder it becomes to govern them.
For public knowledge of the government
Is such a thief that it will spoil the realm;
But when good fortune brings good times to all
The land is ruled without publicity.
To know the difference between these two
Involves a standard to be sought and found.

To know that standard always, everywhere,
Is mystic Virtue, justly known as such;
Which Virtue is so deep and reaching far,
It causes a return, things go back
To that prime concord which at first all shared.




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{66} How could the rivers and the seas become like kings to valleys ...?
How could the rivers and the seas
Become like kings to valleys?
Because of skill in lowliness
They have become the valley's lords.
So then to be above the folk,
You speak as if you were beneath;
And if you wish to be out front,
Then act as if you were behind.

The Wise Man so is up above
But is no burden to the folk;
His station is ahead of them
To see they do not come to harm.

The world will gladly help along
The Wise Man and will bear no grudge.
Since he contends not for his own
The world will not contend with him.




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{67} Compassion, frugality and ruling ...
Everywhere, they say the Way, our doctrine,
Is so very like detested folly;
But greatness of its own alone explains
Why it should be thus held beyond the pale.
If it were only orthodox, long since
It would have seemed a small and petty thing!
I have to keep three treasures well secured:
The first, compassion; next, frugality;
And third, I say that never would I once
Presume that I should be the whole world's chief.

Given compassion, I can take courage;
Given frugality, I can abound;
If I can be the world's most humble man,
Then I can be its highest instrument.

Bravery today knows no compassion;
Abundance is, without frugality,
And eminence without humility:
This is the death indeed of all our hope.

In battle, 'tis compassion wins the day;
Defending, tis compassion that is firm:
Compassion arms the people God would save!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{68} The Stature of the Ancients ...
A skillful soldier is not violent;
An able fighter does not rage;
A mighty conqueror does not give battle;
A great commander is a humble man.
You may call this pacific virtue;
Or say that it is mastery of men;
Or that it is rising to the measure of God,
Or to the stature of the ancients.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{69} Strategy and Compassion ...
The strategists have a saying:

"If I cannot be host,
Then let me be guest.
But if I dare not advance
Even an inch,
Then let me retire a foot."
This is what they call


A campaign without a march,
Sleeves up but no bare arms,
Shooting but no enemies,
Or arming without weapons.
Than helpless enemies, nothing is worse:
To them I lose my treasures.
When opposing enemies meet,
The compassionate man is the winner!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{70} Honour comes when least I'm Known ...
My words are easy just to understand:
To live by them is very easy too;
Yet it appears that none in all the world
Can understand or make them come to life.
My words have ancestors, wy works a prince;
Since none know this, unknown I too remain.
But honor comes to me when least I'm known:
The Wise Man, with a jewel in his breast,
Goes clad in garments made of shoddy stuff.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{71} True knowledge, aberrations and health of mind ...
To know that you are ignorant is best;
To know what you do not, is a disease;
But if you recognize the malady
Of mind for what it is, then that is health.
The Wise Man has indeed a healthy mind;
He sees an aberration as it is
And for that reason never will be ill.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{72} Revealing Inner Nature to the World ...
If people do not dread your majesty,
A greater dread will yet descend on them.
See then you do not cramp their dwelling place,
Or immolate their children or their stock,
Nor anger them by your own angry ways.
It is the Wise Man's way to know himself,
And never to reveal his inward thoughts;
He loves himself but so, is not set up;
He chooses this in preference to that.


73} Its mesh is coarse but none are lost ...
A brave man who dares to, will kill;
A brave man who dares not, spares life;
And from them both come good and ill;
"God hates some folks, but who knows why?"
The Wise Man hesitates there too:
God's Way is bound to conquer all
But not by strife does it proceed.
Not by words does God get answers:
He calls them not and all things come.
Master plans unfold but slowly,
Like God's wide net enclosing all:
Its mesh is coarse but none are lost.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{74} The fear of death ...
The people do not fear at all to die;
What's gained therefore by threat'ning them with death?
If you could always make them fear decease,
As if it were a strange event and rare,
Who then would dare to take and slaughter them?
The executioner is always set
To slay, but those who substitute for him
Are like would-be master carpenters
Who try to chop as that skilled craftsman does
And nearly always mangle their own hands!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{75} To value life above its worth ...
The people starve because of those
Above them, who consume by tax
In grain and kind more than their right.
For this, the people are in want.
The people are so hard to rule
Because of those who are above them,
Whose interference makes distress.
For this, they are so hard to rule.

The people do not fear to die;
They too demand to live secure:
For this, they do not fear to die.
So they, without the means to live,
In virtue rise above those men
Who value life above its worth.




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{76} Unbending rigor is the mate of death, and wielding softness, company of life ...
Alive, a man is supple, soft;
In death, unbending, rigorous.
All creatures, grass and trees, alive
Are plastic but are pliat too,
And dead, are friable and dry.
Unbending rigor is the mate of death,
And wielding softness, company of life:
Unbending soldiers get no victories;
The stiffest tree is readiest for the axe.
The strong and mighty topple from their place;
The soft and yielding rise above them all.




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{77} The Way of the Bow well bent ...
Is not God's Way much like a bow well bent?
The upper part has been disturbed, pressed down;
The lower part is raised up from its place;
The slack is taken up; the slender width
Is broader drawn; for thus the Way of God
Cuts people down when they have had too much,
And fills the bowls of those who are in want.
But not the way of man will work like this:
The people who have not enough are spoiled
For tribute to the rich and surfeited.
Who can benefit the world
From stored abundance of his own?
He alone who has the Way,
The Wise Man who can act apart
And not depend on others' whims;
But not because of his high rank
Will he succeed; he does not wish
To flaunt superiority.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{78} The Paradox of the Nature of Water ...
Nothing is weaker than water,
But when it attacks something hard
Or resistant, then nothing withstands it,
And nothing will alter its way.
Everyone knows this, that weakness prevails
Over strength and that gentleness conquers
The adamant hindrance of men, but that
Nobody demonstrates how it is so.

Because of this the Wise Man says
That only one who bears the nations shame
Is fit to be its hallowed lord;
That only one who takes upon himself
The evils of the world may be its king.

This is paradox.




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{79} The Way favours the good men ...
How can you think it is good
To settle a grievance too great
To ignore, when the settlement
Surely evokes other piques?
The Wise Man therefore will select
The left-hand part of contract tallies:
He will not put the debt on other men.
This virtuous man promotes agreement;
The vicious man allots the blame.

"Impartial though the Way of God may be,
It always favors good men."




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{80} The ideal land is small ...
The ideal land is small
Its people very few,
Where tools abound
Ten times or yet
A hundred-fold
Beyond their use;
Where people die
And die again
But never emigrate;
Have boats and carts
Which no one rides.
Weapons have they
And armor too,
But none displayed.
The folk returns
To use again
The knotted chords.
Their meat is sweet;
Their clothes adorned,
Their homes at peace,
Their customs charm.
And neighbor lands
Are juxtaposed
So each may hear
The barking dogs,
The crowing cocks
Across the way;
Where folks grow old
And folks will die
And never once
Exchange a call.




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{81} The Wise Man's way, to do his work without contending for a crown. ...
As honest words may not sound fine,
Fine words may not be honest ones;
A good man does not argue, and
An arguer may not be good!
The knowers are not learned men
And learned men may never know.
The Wise Man does not hoard his things;
Hard-pressed, from serving other men,
He has enough and some to spare;
But having given all he had,
He then is very rich indeed.

God's Way is gain that works no harm;
The Wise Man's way, to do his work
Without contending for a crown.

http://faculty.vassar.edu/brvannor/bibliography.html


check out that website it has alot of information about many different chinese philosophies,

peace.

http://faculty.vassar.edu/brvannor/bibliography.html


check out that website it has alot of information about many different chinese philosophies,

peace.


Thanks...and, upon scanning that post, I HAVE read those scripts...so yeah..thanks for the link, I'll look into that right now...

just use that site as a reference, you will see alot of terms on that link that you could further look up individualy,

just scan through the site and write down all of the key words etc, then look them all up and get differet views on each from different sources,

i think as a daoist you should take up taiji (tai chi) it will help you understand the physical side of what the scriptures teach you mentally,

seriously start taiji taining, what area are you in i will reccommend you to your nearest decent school, once you learnt he basics you can do it on your own anywhere you like,


do you know much about taiji or practice any forms of it?


peace.

:shrug: