Hi,
Tablariddim advised me to move to religious debate, because my previous topic didn’t tail to Alien’s debate specific, so I am here.
When I read your texts here I can find plenty of wording like: “God loves you”, “Jesus loves you”, “let’s love other people” and similar. And I’m little bid confused if your know exactly what are you talking about.
Hard words, but nowadays a people very often takes the slogans as they are and repeat them like a parrot, without their own deep reflection or without confirmation during her/his live. We need something like a mirror, which could show us our true nature or at least to show to us, if our words comply with our life. By me such mirror can be only the other person.
Tell me, who is the person, which can confirm that you love truly? You are? – of course not, God? – he speaks too seldom (one or twice during whole live), your parents? – they always see you as a best men on earth, priest? – how could he confirm if doesn’t know you at all, your psychologist – there is no true where money appears. By me the answer is : your bedfellow. Funny? No… It’s extremely serious. Let me explain:
People often called love, the feeling which appears during first deep relation with other men of second sex. They imagine that such feeling will be a base for the rest of their live together. But unhappily the “love” often disappears very quickly. And what remains after? Someone says “nothing”, I say - everything. You are in the marriage with quite different men, which has different habits, physics, interesting, who has different body and skills and who knows you very well. You can be quite sure, that if only she/he doesn’t afraid to tell you the true about you, you will get the view of yourself from very different perspective, and believe me such view is much more objective than your one.
Of course you have to hear what’s your partner says (generally speaking the marriage system doesn’t work when both sides cannot hear the other and tell the true to the other).
Can you imagine such horrible live, full of pain and psychical stresses?
At first, the quality of the live in marriage, always depend on the culture of partners.
The second, When we starts with our adult live we aren’t perfect, and such pain is a kind of price which we have to pay if we want to become more smooth. Of course if we forget the lesson we have to pay again.
The third: if you don’t have a real and true voluntarily to live with your wife/husband to death, don’t care about this topic.
Someone can ask: What is the purpose of such live? In my opinion, the marriage is the best place to learn to live on this planet. When we treat our partner seriously we have to learn how to respect her/his person, separateness, etc (and also our own ones) and how to cooperate each other. The live together brings happiness and suffering, common care about children and fight against her/him, true and lies, …. like in real live.
At the beginning everything is difficult, but in some time you can realize that there is something new in relation with your partner – some kind of thread of understanding. If you can care about that understanding, the thread will change into strong rope. You, together with your partner will start to live on the same wave – first spark of harmony appears.
That is probably, that your personality or habits are similar to that one, when you was on your own wedding, but now you can see yourself by her/his eyes and see the things in more objective way. Additionally if your mind is open you can realize the same relation to the other people – your children, your parents, your friends, other people. Now you can learn to live in harmony with whole world.
Funny?
Do you need any religious to become closer with GOD if you have such approach to live?
Let’s burn all your saint books and start to watch the world by your own eyes.

Some conclusions as the summary:
1. The love cannot be found, given, awaken, receipt, taken from my own heart and etc.
2. The love can only be learned
3. This is hard learn which brings blood sweat and tears
4. People hate B.S.T. approach
5. The mankind is far away from the right way

What love is?
By me it’s harmony. Harmony with your things, your dog, your wife/husband, your family, other people,….. and finally with universe – GOD.

Ivan


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Ivan,

Nice to meet you.

With all due respect, your theory excludes those who have never had bedfellows...?

I agree with you that love is learned... and we have had the greatest teacher, the one who "IS" love... Jesus Christ.

Truestory,

I wrote that marriage is the best way to learn live/love, not the only way. Irrespective of all difficulties which happens during the marriage, this is the way which keeps you on the road. You can receipt quick feed back (verbally or physically - when your wife/husband throw something heavy to you) if you go in wrong direction. Only keep your ears and eyes open.

What about Jesus? Do you remember school times? Teachers were giving you quick responses for you work – „You are right – keep the line” or „Your are wrong – work harder”. If Jesus personally gives you such responses, I envy you such relation.

Generally speaking, I do not trust in subjective emotions. People can create almost everything in their minds (I’m saint, I’m a devil, I love people, I hate people) and who tells where is the truth?

Ivan



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Truestory makes a good point.

Then what is love for those of us who don't have bedfellos? How do we learn?

TS isn't speaking about subjective emotions either. You say you look out your window to learn; look at your life and others, actions and reactions, intentions and consequences. I do the same, as I'm sure TS does as well. What I see out my window matches with everything that the Bible says about love 110% exactly and to a tee. Truth is that you are supposed to love everyone the same as God does, realizing that you are no more valuable than anyone else on this planet in His eyes, and as well should be in your eyes. Yes, we are more intimately involved with some rather than others, but the love is there just the same. A constant level of mutual respect based soley upon God's love for us, and the realization of what we are according to Him. So in other words, you're supposed to love everyone, but you're only supposed to have sex with one person. You have all kinds of relationships that mean different things, like a spouse, child, parents, friend, neighbor, co-worker, but you are to love them all the same as a child of God, you just have different manifestations of relationships based upon certain needs and circumstance.

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

- Christian,

My advice is to get married!!!
:D
I think, that avoidance of a close and long term relations with other people is a symptom of fear of that one’s outlook of live, can be destroyed by this relation. So, it’s means that such people often are not completely sure about their outlook of live.


- Lori,

You have used an excellent qualification to describe your position – “look out your window to learn” – but what if someone put a great billboard outside your house just behind the window. The billboard with the picture of GOD keeping bible in his hand.:rolleyes
Let’s go outside your house and check it.
To clarifying something:
Looking for something (especially looking through something what limits your view) is a quite different thing than getting a feed back from live, world or other people.

“you're supposed to love everyone, but you're only supposed to have sex with one person”
???
Read again my topic. If there is something like that, I will send you a bottle of good polish beer.

Keep yourselves

Ivan

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[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited January 14, 2000).]

Dear Ivan,
I agree that nobody can know you better than your spouse and that telling each other some home truths now and again can give you both deeper insights into your personal characters.
But I think that what we have to bear in mind, is the fact that words said, can often be misconstrued by either one or both parties, which can lead to negative, rather than positive insights and usually about your opposite number.
As you have stated, the other person usually has a very different mind to yours and when they give you their objective opinion about you, they are actually using their subjective mind to describe you.
Now what you have to be sure of is whether you and your partner are both intelligent/cognitive/sensitive enough or even in the right frame of mind to give each other an unbiased, textbook viewpoint without it being distorted by one or the others subjective way of thinking.

The greatest killers of marriages are sefishness and jealousy, get rid of those and refresh with plenty of Loving, Sharing and Talking and they will bloom. Just make sure they're planted in well aerated soil and fertilise regurlarly. http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Thanks tablariddim,


I can see that we have similar view on the marriage.

You are right with misunderstanding between partners, but everything is difficult in the beginning.

Don’t worry about your partner’s objectiveness, by me is more important, to get confirmation (or not) that your verbally declared statements are in accordance with your external activity. By the way – which part of ourselves is more real: this one, which acts in material world or that - in my mind?

Ivan


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Hey Ivan,

How the hell do you know what's outside my window? Chances are there's not a billboard blocking my view. If you don't want my opinion from now on, then why don't you add a disclaimer to your sig that specifically states that everyone EXCEPT Lori is invited to respond.

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Love is a choice, it is a putting someone else before yourself.. It is finding what is good in another person, and having the courage and the faith to make any necessary changes from within your own heart..

Thank you Micah. :)

Such an open-minded concept makes it possible for us all to learn and know love whether or not we have a bedfellow or have entered into a marriage.

This is quite a comfort, considering that most marriages end in divorce. Don't get me wrong... personally, I think that Ivan has made some good but limiting points concerning love and marriage. My husband and I are in our twenty-eighth year of marriage and I can relate to much of what Ivan is saying. However, some of the most loving, lasting relationships in one's lifetime can be those with friends, family and others which do not require sleeping together or marriage.

Hey, where did you learn this? ;)

Ivan,

I've been married for a quarter of a century. Marriage is not for everyone. Some people choose to stay single for different reasons.

Micah said it best. Love everyone that way. What a wonderful world this would be.

Hi again,

- Micah
Ask yourself , who gave you the power to judge “what is good in another person”

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- Christian
Sweet dreams, but the world is not wonderful.

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- "Love everyone that way"
I see that I have to ask again: What love is?
Do you exactly know what are you talking about? Do you have enough courage to look into your soul (subconscious) and find the truth?
I’m not in the position to fight with you. Everyone of us has his own way to go and if one’s find it or not, belongs only of him. But the important question remain: Do people have the tools which are good enough to recognise their actual position (on or off the way).
Let listen to my story:
I have mentioned in my first post that God says to people too seldom, one or twice during the live. My first lesson with God were a long time ago, just after I had left my girl. She seemed to me so bad and I felt myself so great (all in moral point of view), that breaking our relationship was in my mind quite a natural way. But some time after that, I realised that the matter could look in quite different way and that I simply hurt that girl. I exactly remember the moment when I realised such view. The moment when I perceived the existence of some being in my room. The being was so warm, beautiful (I felt it only – it was invisible) and perfect, that in the light of it, my person seemed to me ugly and very dirty. I could only felt down and cry. I didn’t know who it was – he didn’t introduce himself – maybe it was an angel, maybe Jesus, maybe someone else – it wasn’t matter. What was important? – that I had just received the lesson: “Good job, keep the line” – “always remember that the same thing can look different from second perspective” – “don’t afraid to look into your soul”.
What happened after that? Of course I became a very hot christian ( it was the only religion in my reach). I was trying to fulfil all directions from priests, I was trying to love other people, I was trying to awake the love in my soul and in my opinion I managed to did it. But sometimes, when I reminded my lesson I realised that very deep in my soul, my conceit was raising more quicker than my “love”, and that there also exist the raised contempt to other people under conceit in my soul. It was horrible discovery for me. I started to look for some rescue of my soul and I started to read bible. The result of these research was quite interesting, because I was happy (my soul was happy) with only these sentences, which meaning says to me the opposite things to these issued by priests or church. Today I’m far away from christians and in every time when I see the words like: “Love is a choice, it is a putting someone else before yourself..”, or “Love everyone that way” I wonder if such words are personally discovered by these people in their mind.

Coming back to marriage:
Maybe there are some saint man in the world who can see you as you are in all aspects. And who can tell you (verbally!!!) what is wrong with you and what is most suitable way for you to love truly. Even they are exist, they are unreachable by most of the people.
SO IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO IT, YOU CAN TRY , but you have to rely on yourself with the support of other person, who can play a mirror role (as a single you have no chance). Such “mirror” should be able to tell you that there is something wrong with you, when your activity became incompatible with your officially declared ideas. On such signal you should ask yourself: why,.. why,...why and look for the answers deep and deep into your subconscious. The true motives of our activity are very often covered deep in our subconscious.
ONLY WHEN WE RECOGNISE OUR TRUE MOTIVES WE CAN RECOGNISE WHO WE ARE.
Who can be such mirror? The person who knows you the best of all other people , who is continuously present in you live, who is sure that you will stay with her/his, independently of what she/he says (if only the reason of such say is to clarifying something).
In my opinion the best solution for such person is a bedfellow.
You said that friends and family are also good enough to learn the love with them. Maybe. But you should take into consideration that we often select our friends from the same sex, with similar interesting, etc. Generally speaking: the more consistence with other, the better friend. Tell me what interesting can you hear about yourself from your friend if he/she sees the things in the same way?

Some of you are interesting where is Antychrist, who is he, and etc. Such crazy idea could born only in States, where people’s subconscious is feeding by plenty of movies with separate, well recognised “dark character” with ugly face and located far away from heroes.
Can’t you see that “Antychrist” and “Jesus” are existing together in each people mind. It depend only of each of us who will be a winner.

Ivan


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[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited January 15, 2000).]

Ivan,

It seems that the basic difference here is that you choose to learn about love from another human being, a bedfellow. That is a very limited perspective when compared to the objective truth which has been given to us by Jesus Christ.

Others, who have spoken here, are not "judging," they are speaking about the love which they learned from God/Jesus Christ as opposed to another human being. Yes, God has given people the ability to recognize their position on or off the way. Through the Word of God, Jesus Christ, God has also given us the knowledge of love. The Word of God, Jesus Christ, is love and that is what Micah was talking about.

Why do you consider this to be a fight? Hopefully, you can begin to look at this forum as a discussion where, hopefully, we can learn by sharing knowledge, experiences and ideas.

When I read your story, once again I see that you attempted to learn about love from others rather than looking to Jesus Christ, the source or the "mirror" so to speak. I believe you even described how you found more happiness in the Word than you did from the teachings of other human beings... priests. It is Jesus Christ/God, our creator who knows us best and it is to Him that we should look to seek guidance about love.

One can hear many interesting things from their friends. The ones I find most "interesting" are those who are different in their background and experiences. We can learn many things from each other, however, in order to love each other we must first learn what love really means. The question of "What love is" has been answered by our creator, God, Jesus Christ. He came here to show us the way.

The ability to the see magnificence and uniqueness of each individual which God has created is part of understanding how love, which Jesus Christ has shown us, works in our relationships with others. When we understand this, we have the ability to love everyone.

The spirit of the anti-Christ is not an "idea" which was born in the United States. It is a spirit which was foretold by the Word of God, Jesus Christ. Yes, it can be present in all of us, if we let it. However, if we fill our hearts with the Spirit of Jesus Christ, there is no room for the spirit of the anti-Christ.

I understand that, in your mind, you believe that love can be found through the feedback of a bedfellow. However, compared to the knowledge of God, your mind is limited and so is that of your bedfellow. Our God, Jesus Christ, has given us the truth about love. If we truly want to know "what love is" then we must look to the perfect source of love, Jesus Christ.

Without Jesus Christ in our life then, yes, we will become one of the prize possessions of the anti-Christ. This is another truth which God gave us through the Word, Jesus Christ. The truth which is most important, though, is that accepting and living the love of Jesus Christ in this world is the way to attain eternal love.

Our life in the here and now, with all others, no matter how much we believe we have learned about love from them is only temporary. Our life in the love of Jesus Christ can begin in the here and now and will last forever.

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Your justice I kept not hid within my heart; your faithfulness and your salvation I have spoken of; I have made no secret of your kindness and your truth in the vast assembly. (Psalm 40:11)



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 15, 2000).]

Jesus this... Jesus that...
I don’t want to tell you about Jesus objectiveness because in other place, Tiassa gave you a lot of such argumentation. I will never do it better.
But I wan to draw you attention to one aspect of your argumentation:
In my deep recognition, everything in this universe (material and spiritual ones) are connected each other. The consequences of any occurrence spread over all other ones. This universe is coherent with itself. If you mix black and white you get grey, if you made a mistake you have to bear the consequences, the true sentences are logically coherent.
I have to say that in my opinion you world is "semicoherent". It means that your world is made of incoherent elements glued by ... Jesus.
So if you mix black and white you receive black or white (because of Jesus love), if you made a mistake , Jesus forgive you, the true sentences are only these ones which refers to Jesus.
If such system works, we have to see for example. .. flying trees, growing in the air – because of Jesus's love of course.
Have you ever seen such tree?
Or other example: When you argue with me and use incoherent parts of sentences glued by Jesus, I can’t see the logical value of such glue and I can see only incoherent argumentation. Then, our further discussion become impossible.
So, please don’t tell me more, what Jesus wants to say me on discussed subject. If I want to know his opinion , I will read the bible by myself.
I’m interested in you own opinion.

Ivan



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Don't throw your paradigm on her Ivan. Just because you are too close-minded to believe that that IS her opinion and the Bible backs it up, does not mean that isn't so. You are so stupid as to think that the only reason that Christians believe what they do is because they are arbitrarily instructed to in some spoon-fed, brain-washed fashion. If I were you, I wouldn't necessarily be quick to admit that I was so limited and confined in my thinking. I suggest that if you would like to argue against Christianity, that you do read the Bible yourself and learn something about it, and then judge. Who are you kidding? You haven't done that. So how is it that you're qualified to judge TS or me or anyone else's views exactly?

The FACTS are these Ivan...the reason that I believe the Bible to be true, and that Jesus is the Son of God, is due to the exact opposite process of what you are proposing. I am able to take ANY circumstance in the entire world, ANY act, ANY intention, ANY pain, ANY joy, ANY decision, ANY consequence of ANY decision, and find it's ONLY LOGICAL explanation in the Word of God. Can you do that? That very process was what led me to HAVE to have the faith that I do. You would have to admit that you understand next to nothing about the Bible because why? Because you would just rather not know that's why. And what was your really great explanation of my search for truth and my observations about life and about this world? Oh yea, that there must be a billboard in front of my view. Well Ivan, that was just profound, but you are wrong, so what explanation do you offer in regards to that? Hey, let's take some issues, you and I, ones that we both see in the world around us and let's see if we can explain them. I'd bet you everything I've got that I can provide a more logical explanation than you can every single time. Oh that's right, it doesn't matter if it MAKES LOGICAL SENSE, it's arbitrarily thrown out of consideration SIMPLY BECAUSE OF IT'S SOURCE. You people want to talk about Zombies? What a joke. True Christians (and not even all of them do this well) are about the only people I know that even ATTEMPT to look at this world objectively and not rationalize everyone's sins like everyone else does. Like you do. Come on, let's see what you've got besides a bunch of misguided stereotypical paradigm sissy hype. Chicken -poop, I DARE you to take an OBJECTIVE look at some scripture. I DARE you, why? Because I KNOW 100% and without a doubt that is all it would take for you to see the truth. Yea, that truth that you're so deathly terrified of...that you're a sinner. Awww, too bad, boo-hoo. Don't feel bad, you're not alone. ;)

Ivan,

What it seems to come down to is this... I view the world inclusive of the objective reality of Jesus Christ. You view the world exclusive of the objective reality of Jesus Christ. That is your choice.

You see, this is a religious debate forum and as such, you will find those who disagree with you for very valid reasons. If you just want to come out here to tell everyone how the world is according to Ivan and you don't want to discuss issues, that is your choice, too.

You believe that a spouse is the best source to learn about love. Apparently, you have a relationship with a spouse and do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the source of love, and therefore the best source to learn about love. I have a long-term relationship with a spouse and can identify with, understand and agree with much of what you are saying. However, I also have a relationship with Jesus Christ which you don't have and which you have obviously chosen to close your mind to. Therefore, it seems you cannot identify with, understand or agree with anything I am saying.

That's fine. I understand.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 16, 2000).]

Just to clarifying something, Lori.

----“ I suggest that if you would like to argue against Christianity, that you do read the Bible yourself and learn something about it, and then judge. Who are you kidding? You haven't done that”---
???? !!!!!
If you have red carefully one of my previous post, you should find that I spend a lot of time on reading Bible. It was about 3-4 years. Do you suggest that I lie?! If so, there is something new in christians approach to the other people.

I can tell you more. I’m a proof, that someone who desperately searching for God, can read bible and who can find out in this book a quite different explanation of live than your one. I still believe in God, but now in comparison to my christians experience, my world is complete and coherent. When I was christans I had a very big problem to explain (logically) to myself even simplest occurrence which I met and to remain coherent with Church. Now, every new occurrence which I meet confirm the rules of my world. Think about it!!!
THE OTHER WAY TO GOD IS POSSIBLE. EVERYONE CAN REACH HIS OWN WAY. ONLY KEEP YOUR EYES AND EARS OPEN EVEN YOU LOOKING INTO YOUR SOUL.


I’m not judging TS or you or anyone else's views exactly! Simply I KNOW that if someone see only one way of explanation of something, he is WRONG.

The problem with you is that, when you read others posts, you not try understand what they want to say, what was posters intention. I have the impression that you specialized with searching of the texts which are not in accordance with your opinion to reduce them to dust, without any reflection, what that guy wanted to say. By me such approach stays very close to fight. Be careful because a fight has nothing to do with love.

You said many about logic, but what logic has to do with the sentences from my previous post. Let say that they are not true:
----So if you mix black and white you receive black or white (because of Jesus love), if you made a mistake , Jesus forgive you, the true sentences are only these ones which refers to Jesus.----

That is enough,

Do anybody else want to share with us, their experience of individual way to love. I’m waiting.

Ivan


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As much as I respect you all and you are obviously good thinkers, there are things in life which you just have to do and things in life that no-one can ever really understand no matter how much they htink they can. I think no matter what love is if it makes you happy then it is right, if it does not make you happy then in is wrong. You will never find perfection in anything in this world so why not make the most of our lives? I think like life, love is what you make it!!

Victoria.

Lori,


I suggest that if you would like to argue against Christianity, that you do read the Bible yourself and learn something about it, and then judge. Who are you kidding? You haven't done that

Have you read the satanic bible or bibles of other religions? Most likly not, but yet you find self in a position that you can argue about these other relgions. The satanic bible isn't what you think it is about. Give it a read it's prety interesting. Not that I follow the satanic bible I just found it was interesting that it is the oposite of what every one will tell you it is about.

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All I know is what I understand. All I understand is what I know. :)

Hi there triple 6,

I have not read any of the Satanic bible. Hmmm....makes me think some. I have read about the basic theology regarding most world religions. I'm very familiar with the new age messages that have been "channelled" recently. I'm somewhat familiar, from experience on this board with pagan and wiccan beliefs. My own brother, whom I love with all my heart and soul, is a devout atheist and scientific evolutionist. We love to debate. Imagine that? ;) I've studied some ancient Greek and Roman mythology, and some ancient American Indian beliefs here and there. And last but certainly the most important, I have a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus. Yea, Jesus Himself comes and talks to ME. Yea, ME. He wants me to tell you that He loves you. :)

Also, I can't help but heed the warning regarding seeking some type of relationship with Satan. I mean, to be honest it would kind of give me the heeby-jeebies, ya know? Maybe I just feel like my life doesn't need any bad vibes at all. I can barely hang with what I've been given at this point. Then again, the rebel-fighter side of me says "read it and prove it wrong". I'm sure that's been done before. Which leads me to my next thought....

That I honestly, and I'm just so sure that you'll think I'm a total freak when I say this but, I've practically had a conversation with Satan himself many times. In reality we all have many times, everyday perhaps...influenced by his temptation in some way....some ways greater than others...it differs for all of us. Beyond that even, the spirit that Flash is always talking about, and the spirits that she is familiar with, I have pretty much had indirect conversations with through her, which if ya think doesn't freak my butt out, let me just tell you, wow, trippy dude, but no fun!!!!!! They've got her by the balls and it's breaking my heart. But anyway, I think that if I were to read the Satanic bible, that it probably wouldn't surprise me much. I bet I could guess at least the general synopsis of the beliefs....I'll start off with a very general statement of "whatever 'feels good' goes". How's that for a start?


------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

6,

It's candy coated sin. It's no different that all the other lies Satan pumps out. It raises man up and discounts God. That is wat Satan did and he wants us to be just like him. He wants to be in charge for what little time he has and to see little satans running all over the Earth. Therefore, his goal is to trick each and evey last one of us that he can into doing everything he has done. Baby killing and all that stuff that most think of, when they think of devil worship, is not what sends you to hell. Sin is what does that. The satanic bible is a book of sin. Baby killing and all of that jazz is a type of sin. Does it happen? Yes. will most admit to it? No. Of course not! They're satanists. To lie is perfectly fine with them.


To stay on point, true love seeks the best good of the one it is focused upon.

God is the only source of true Love,
ISDAMan

[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited February 05, 2000).]