Hello,

Many of us who live outside the US, counting that country as the real thread to world safety, stability, democracy ....or our future. The present public opinion probing, show that the U.S. poses a far greater threat to the world than terrorism and armed conflicts. Tell me what the rest of world can do with USA? What the solution would be effective to temper this crazy regime? Economical sanctions? UN resolution ;) , or widespread refusal to buy their (and their suporters - I'm Polish) goods. Tell me is there any solution? :confused:
Hey Chineese - say a word.

Chris

Let the US keep on doing what it is doing, we just have to sit back relax and enjoy the show.

How is the U.S. a threat

Hello,

Many of us who live outside the US, counting that country as the real thread to world safety, stability, democracy ....or our future. The present public opinion probing, show that the U.S. poses a far greater threat to the world than terrorism and armed conflicts. Tell me what the rest of world can do with USA? What the solution would be effective to temper this crazy regime? Economical sanctions? UN resolution ;) , or widespread refusal to buy their (and their suporters - I'm Polish) goods. Tell me is there any solution?
Hey Chinese - say a word.

Chris

Whirlwind responds... :o

If you "get the drift," after reading the industrial quantities of sarcasm from the Madhatters of Sciforum, Chris.... you will find:

Pax Americana (currently in the hands of the NeoCon trotskyite Jews) continues to expand like the HIV virus in Africa, for you see, we hopelessly (obese and) arrogant American's see the rest of the world as "The Problem!"

Problem: Colombian drugs - Oh, but we are the biggest consumers of drugs!

Problem: Palestinain terrorism - Oh, but we continue to arm the LIKUDNIK hyena's and their IDF thugs and murderers with the most sophisticated weaponry in the US armory and "look the other way" as they murder, maim, wound and displace the Palestinian people off of their land and violate (daily) the 1949 Geneva Convention protocols regarding occupation forces responsibilites to the occupied people.

Problem: Europe won't join us as we attack a hapless Arab nation that (supposedly) has WMD's on its launching pads ready to attack America in 45 minutes (Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney's lies) - and the lies continue to be exposed, as we speak.

Problem: Bush, "They hate us because we're free!" - You lying sonofab!tch!

Problem: Abrogated Kyoto Treaty, abrogated ICC treaty, abrogated ABM treaty, creating weaponized bacteriological weapons in violation of current UN treaties as we speak, developing tactical "bunker buster" nukes in violation of the current UN non-proliferation Treaty, looking the other way - Re: Israel's nukes, while demanding that the Iranians shut down their Nuke development program, demanding that the EU help and support the US with its financing of Israeli STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM activites - and the list goes on, and on, and on!

Your country - Poland, will be pulling its coalition troops out of Iraq this June and they are 'disturbed" by the Bush administrations lies and deciet also.

You asked - and I answered you!

Whirlwind.... *

*To know him - is to love 'em! :D

What we shold do with USA?
Wait for them to finally get round to civil war?
No?
OK hit 'em with sanctions.
That should do the trick.
Let them back into the gang when they learn to behave themselves and get some humility.

Embargo on!
Dee Cee

If and when OPEC switches to the Euro, a world economic war against the USA will be on.

LOL Anti-US threads always give me the giggles.
"Hey Chineese - say a word." said Chris63. So your so scared of the U.S. that you'll suck up to a Communist regime? GOOD MOVE! LOL
OK, I've said my piece, flame me and go back to your U.S. Hating.

What exactly is Europe doing so well that we should emulate it?

140 years after our own Civil War, Europe is finally taking its first baby steps towards being one nation instead of a collection of constantly squabbling and often-warring mini-states. Except that they have a long way to go toward understanding the concept of unfettered interstate commerce. Polish citizens have to apply for a work permit before they can apply for a job in France.

Sixty years after the Holocaust, anti-Semitism is still rampant. Not that we've totally abolished it over here, but many Jews who are not happy in Israel settle here and find it tolerable. How many go to France or Slovakia? (You Euros who speak of our country being "run by Jews" are so ignorant that it's downright amusing. A Jew has to have a pretty thick skin to live anywhere in the U.S. except Los Angeles or New York. The "Jews" you keep pointing out hysterically are assimilated, secularized and often married to Christians. Groucho Marx was "Jewish." Pretty scary, sinister guy, wasn't he? So is Roseanne Barr.)

You treat your Muslims far worse than we do. Outlawing head scarves, beating them up, keeping them in ghettos, restricting them to menial labor. Ours are computer programmers, actuaries, university professors, and engineers. They live among us, send their children to the same schools (in head scarves), and shop in the same markets so we all get to know each other. Christian and Jewish Americans are joining Sufi groups and learning a new path to love and peace.

All the U.S. has to do to regain its former position of respect is try some of the good old-fashioned isolationism that worked so well for us UNTIL WE HAD TO START SENDING OUR TROOPS TO EUROPE EVERY FEW DECADES TO HELP YOU BLOODTHIRSTY MORONS SETTLE YOUR INCESSANT WARS AMONG YOURSELVES!

Pull our armies out of the Mideast. Stop arming Israel and Saudi Arabia and Kazakhstan and every Muslim dictator who cozies up to us. Stop pretending that we know how to resolve ethnic and religious hatreds that were already ancient before our country even existed.

That should go a long way toward solving the problem.

Oh yeah, and pull the plug on Microsoft. I don't relish the thought of a worldwide "information infrastructure" based on Windows any more than you do. If the "boycott" you're talking about is aimed at Microsoft, I'll be happy to participate.

I agree with Fraggle on how the US should try to protect herself from the inevitable cannibalization that most empires go through. The US should choose its allies very selectively and strategically, Israel, and Uzbekistan are not helping the US in any verifiable way. France, and Germany, the UK, Canada, all those traditional allies should be kept in the fold as much as possible. Alienating these countries and their populations is a very risky venture for the US. If the US really wants to survive and thrive, the most important thing of all is to make the US economy into a green economy. Stop importing oil, and thus decreasing the amount of foreign dependence by leaps and bounds, also weakling the Islamic world by leaps and bounds as well. Let's face facts; the US economy is dictated by three things, cycles, presidents, and OPEC. The normal American has to get away from the unnecessarily large Hummer’s, and come to grips that reality has struck. With countries like China and India sucking much more oil, the price will be high for a very long time indeed. What do I mean by Green economy? Well at first create very fuel efficient cars, so the US only depends on close allies for oil like Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. Then finally transition to a hydrogen based economy when it becomes economically viable. That is the only real way for the US to get isolationist and have an economy not hindered by other states.

... continues to expand like the HIV virus in Africa...

In case you're interested. (http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34765)

when the US starts to act ruthless, that's when America Bashing will stop


If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow. (John Wayne)

the fact that the bashing is going on and is so rampant, proves that the US is not so bad

look at all the atrocities around the world. who gets criticized most? who gets proded and poked and analyzed the most? the most democratic and humane places.

who does not get critisized?
Kim, Saddam, house of Saud, China, Syria, the Ayatollah, Castro, etc.

why? because they are ruthless

why? because they are ruthless

But all those states you mentioned are on the verge of collapse or are living in a facade. The US can easily create the ruthless American image around the world, but it won't work. It never has, and it never will work. Ppl will be quiet and accept it for a while, but the cracks will show and the whole system comes crashing down. The USSR for instance was ruthless in E.Europe, and look what happened. Ruthlessness cannot work because the ppl don't will it to. American power has always rested on her being a “generous, and forgiving state”. The US shouldn’t force it’s will on others, Iraq proves John Wayne incorrect, and so does Afghanistan. We are talking about a US policy that simply cannot sustain itself, and a policy that is bound to inevitable failure.

Israel, and Uzbekistan are not helping the US in any verifiable way
i don't know about Uzbekistan, but here's what Israel has done for the US and the world: link (http://www.israelcelebration.com/posters.htm), and link (http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/Defections.html)
so far it's been pretty good. who knows what else the future holds

Stop importing oil, and thus decreasing the amount of foreign dependence by leaps and bounds, also weakling the Islamic world by leaps and bounds as well.
foreign dependence... will not be decreased. US economy is integrated with other countries through other sectors. say thankyou to globalization.
weakening the Islamic world... it would actually do the opposite.
well first of all, you probably meant 'islamist'. we need to strengthen the Islamic world, and weaken the islamist world.
by putting trade sanctions on the Islamic world (that's what it is, when you stop buying billions and billions dollars worth of oil), they get poorer, and the islamists gain power.

the most important thing of all is to make the US economy into a green economy
air powered cars (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/air-car.htm), and fuel-cell (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell.htm) technology, among others, are not far away. there are certain things that need to be taken care of before these new technologies are adopted. from a technical point, they're almost [if not already] ready to go

That is the only real way for the US to get isolationist and have an economy not hindered by other states
what would be best is if all the world's economies will be integrated, not isolated (Juche)
one of the reasons for the creation of the EU was to integrate Germany's economy after WWII to prevent it from further aggression (and, of course, to provide Germany a big market for its cars. selling cars to people instead of bombing them is more profitable)

now, before we go on and become green, before we put these enormous sanction-like moves on the middle east, we have to make sure there is something else going for them. otherwise we would really be "pigs"
that is awfully hard when these countries are run by fanatics who refuse to even incorporate usury (interest) into their banking system... let alone introduce free-markets and western-style economy

Stop importing oil, and thus decreasing the amount of foreign dependence by leaps and bounds, also weakling the Islamic world by leaps and bounds as well.Absolutely! Sorry I didn't mention that myself. Most Americans today have jobs that they could do perfectly well from their homes with nothing more than a workstation, a telephone, and a webcam. That would cut our consumption of petroleum down to a trickle, reduce pollution and accidents, eliminate a major source of stress in our lives, and allow families to spend more time together.

There are two reasons that we are all forced to spend as much as a fourth of our waking hours driving back and forth across the landscape.

One is that the people who manage us don't really know how to manage. They just count the number of minutes that they see us at our desks rather than measuring the quantity and quality of what we produce. We can probably solve that problem when you younger folks who are accustomed to doing everything virtually finally take over. (He said naively. I waited thirty years to finally be able to put a draft-dodgin', free-lovin', pot-smokin', sax-playin', color-blind Baby Boomer in the White House. Now he's gone and it's like it never happened.)

The second is that the auto industry and the petroleum industry have an incredible amount of influence over how this country is run. They want us to spend huge amounts of money on cars and on the petroleum that runs them. Wasn't it masterful the way they wooed half the population out of their safe, easily-parked, fuel-efficient compact cars and convinced them to drive around in wobbly, top-heavy two-ton trucks that don't have to satisfy the government standards for safety and fuel economy? There is no easy way to solve this problem. Corporations are the new aristocracy. They can do whatever they want and they answer to no one.

all those states you mentioned are on the verge of collapse or are living in a facade
not really. they've been around for a long time and don't seem like they're going anywhere

The USSR for instance was ruthless in E.Europe, and look what happened.
what happened? when USSR was around, there were no Chechnya bombings, there was no serious resistance by any of the republics or E.European countries...
only once the US caused it to collapse , only then did the E.European countries became free of the soviet grip

Iraq proves John Wayne incorrect
i'd argue that it proves it exactly correct.
if they don't hesitate to bomb those mosques, or to not offer humanitarian gestures such as a ceasefire to allow the insurgents to bury their dead or to unilaterally stop fighting to let the insurgents celebrate their holidays...
they could also disregard all the Geneva conventions and give the finger to Kofi Annan

this was basically what Saddam was doing. al-Sadr didn't even squack back then.

after insurgents are so scared shitless and abandon their plots, only then can US install a just and democratic government, like what happened in Japan and Germany after they were severely, disproportionally, punished for their aggression.

Hey folks,

I didn't say that america is a danger to itselves but to other countries. Maybe you have your own heaven in your country (US), but I would like to build my own heaven in my land according to my own measures, not according to your one. I'm sure that Iraqis think the same. I asked for Chineese word, becouse I remember the world 20 years ago - when two powers balanced each other. In those times it wasn't so easy for Russia or US to dictate their rules to the countries becouse of the big opponent watching on it's hand and I see now that China can be the only power which will stop US in the future. Let's see. You may argue: but danger of nuclear war or lack of civil right in communism part of world which was present that time. I ask you to look around, but from poor countries perspective. During the last 20 years their situation got worse badly (situation - I mean the ability to live in happiness, not only the financial income). Why? - ask yourselve.
Fraggle rocker - when I read your posts I jump in the past to the previous communism time in Poland - the same arguments they used to promote their politics.
Finally I think the Undecided has a right with advice to sit in the armchair and watch the show. Something much more important is boiling under cover. This bad things which are happening in Iraq now, are for turn out our attention only or it is a small streem of underground river which will appear soon. Such unprecended grow of sources as taken place recently and turmoil in the politics sugessting that much more "exciting" things will happened.

Chris

If Iraq and Afghanistan were not so cordial to terrorist they would still have dictators in charge. The leadership of these countries decided that they liked to help those who hate the United States. I do not care if we are looking for ice cubes in the desert. Terrorist believe that they have nothing to lose. To marginalize them we have to give them something to lose. If you attack the U.S. over seas we will respond one way. If you attack the United States on our own turf we are unable to retreat or withdraw. As we have always done we will respond to such a challenge in an extremely forceful manner to insure that the incident is not repeated. The terrorist saw the image that we project. They forgot that the U.S. is made of people who were kicked out of every civilized country. We broke every treaty with the Indians that we ever made and wiped them out. We kidnapped thousands of people to use as cheap labor and we are the only nation to ever use atomic weapons. We were not always nice fat and lazy. Some of us are still violent and cruel and aggressive. We have shown extraordinary restraint in our response and I think that people should ask themselves how they would want their countries to respond if their loved ones were killed by terrorist.

"I think that people should ask themselves how they would want their countries to respond if their loved ones were killed by terrorist"
I, for one, would want for my country to go specifically, surgically, and unfalteringly after terrorists, not states, not selectively within only antagonistic states, and never using armies. If a superpower were to chase any other international criminals around the globe with armies, the result would also and inevitably be counterproductive wars. Understandable anger and frustration over terrorism must not be allowed to degenerate into dysfunctional lashing out.

i don't know about Uzbekistan, but here's what Israel has done for the US and the world: link (http://www.israelcelebration.com/posters.htm), and link (http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/Defections.html)
so far it's been pretty good. who knows what else the future holds

I don't see much to tell you the truth oth, the only thing that holds any form of relevance is the liberal democracy bit, but even that is a lie. Turkey is a liberal democracy as well, she is Islamic, and doesn't incite hatred from the entire Islamic world. Now if you consider Whitney Houston Celebrates Israel's Diversity to be a supporting the US, then I don't know what to say. Israel is a liability for the US rather then an asset. If you read the manifestos of the Islamic groups they contain US support for Israel as being one of the factors that make the US a target. 9/11 was partially done because of US support for Israel; I wouldn't say that's what the US was counting on. Most of the Islamic world believes that Israel and the US are working together against them, and that the US is supporting the outlaw Israel gov't *which she is*:


In the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed, people side with the Palestinians over Israel by lop-sided margins. In Pakistan, Jordan and Morocco, virtually no one sides with Israel. Opinion in Turkey is somewhat less uniform, though people sympathize with the Palestinians by about ten-to-one (63%-6%); 16% of Turks say they sympathize with neither side in the conflict.


Whether you like it or not, perception is everything. In the relevant area (the Islamic world) as long as the US supports Israel, US is to blame for propping up the proxy.

foreign dependence... will not be decreased. US economy is integrated with other countries through other sectors.

By foreign dependence, I obviously meant by energy needs potty, you know that.

weakening the Islamic world... it would actually do the opposite.
well first of all, you probably meant 'islamist'. we need to strengthen the Islamic world, and weaken the islamist world.

By the looks of it much of the "Islamic" world is becoming "Islamist". The moderates are loosing out to the poor, disenfranchised and easily manipulated masses.

what would be best is if all the world's economies will be integrated, not isolated (Juche)

I didn't say Juche potty, don't twist my words. You know I was talking about oil.

we have to make sure there is something else going for them. otherwise we would really be "pigs" that is awfully hard when these countries are run by fanatics who refuse to even incorporate usury (interest) into their banking system... let alone introduce free-markets and western-style economy

Let them do it, if we impose it. It will blow up in our faces.

not really. they've been around for a long time and don't seem like they're going anywhere

All those states were propped up by the fmr. Soviet bloc or a shaky US:

Kim, Saddam, house of Saud, China, Syria, the Ayatollah, Castro, etc.

Only China is the one who is independent of foreign influence. Cuba, and Iran are going to go through revolutions soon enough, Saddam is gone, Syria is questionable hopefully Assad will reform internally, Saudi is on the hit list for the PNAC gang, and Kim is propped up by China. All these states are on shaky ground, ruling by an Iron fist has not worked, if your state has to be propped up something is wrong.

what happened? when USSR was around, there were no Chechnya bombings, there was no serious resistance by any of the republics or E.European countries...

What do you call 1956 Hungarian uprising? The 1967 Czech revolution, Solidarity movement in Poland, and the 1989 Berlin Wall? There was active resistance in the east against the repressive Brezhnev doctrine.

only once the US caused it to collapse , only then did the E.European countries became free of the soviet grip

The US did not cause the USSR to collapse, what caused it to collapse was its own inefficiency. The US helped it out, but it was an internal collapse.

this was basically what Saddam was doing. al-Sadr didn't even squack back then.

Yet we have the 1991 uprising against Saddam that almost succeeded.

after insurgents are so scared shitless and abandon their plots, only then can US install a just and democratic government, like what happened in Japan and Germany after they were severely, disproportionally, punished for their aggression.

This is not going to happen; the comparison is not even accurate. These ppl are being pushed by Islam, a force stronger then our ideals. If they believe that they are going to heaven, or something of that nature. No democracy or enlightenment ideals are going to change their minds. They are not western, Germans and Japanese were westernized.

Be nice to them, It'll confuse hell out of everybody.

when the US starts to act ruthless, that's when America Bashing will stop.

the fact that the bashing is going on and is so rampant, proves that the US is not so bad

look at all the atrocities around the world. who gets criticized most? who gets proded and poked and analyzed the most? the most democratic and humane places.

who does not get critisized?
Kim, Saddam, house of Saud, China, Syria, the Ayatollah, Castro, etc.

why? because they are ruthless
__________________________________________________ _____________

Whirlwind replies....

First, lemmie say: "Happy Easter everyone!" :)
(including my nemesis Coffee Clutch & Fishman!).

Whirlwind continues: I found your post interesting because it reflects many of the misconceptions that have swooped down on this once greatly "respected" country of ours ever since the NeoCon(Fascists) took over our government in 2000. Misconceptions that are causing the US to become one of the great Pariah's of the new Millennium, much like its fellow pariah friend and co-founding member of MURDER, INC. [Middle East division] Israel.

I suppose we can blame this curse that arrived to our shores late in the last millennium with the demise of the CCCP for many of our problems, among them a greatly swollen ego which had its genesis during this time period.

When the NeoCon's drank from the magic potion EMPIRE and ONLY SUPER POWER IN THE WORLD, the die was cast* - and America found itself morphed from a member of the world community that felt a need to behave with honestry and entegrity among the nations of the world, though surrounded by meglomanaics, thugs, and murderers who called themselves statesmen, leaders, and "men of Peace" and sudddenly the US felt a need to become ONE OF THEM under George W. Bush and his NeoCon riff raff, sad to say. I mean, before the Bush fascists took over the Whitehouse had "anyone" ever read about the US bugging the secretary general of the UN's office?

*Of-course, the 25,000 Russian 10/MIRV'd nuclear warheads mounted on the business end of the Russian's SS-19's and SS-20's ICBM's that were targeted on the American heartland (and its allies) in the last millennium certainly helped promote our animated good behavior. :p ).

Your comment: "The fact that the bashing is going on and so rampant proves that the US is not so bad." Hum, that means that since everyone is trying to shoot our tail feathers off that this is a sign that the world still loves us, huh? (I'm going to have to think on that one).

As for your comment Re: atrocities, and who's hands are bloodier than who's. I can only say I believe the massacre of 4,500,000,000 civilians by the US in Vietnam and the 750,000 massacred civilians in the "illegal" bombing of Laos and Cambodia in the 1970's have to be record setters, da? (We'll skip the 19 million gallons of Agent Orange America "poured" on the hapless people of SE Asia, that caused the biggest environmental disaster in the history of the world and who's health and mental effects on the people of SE Asia in general and Vietnam in particular are still being felt some three dacades later).

Certainly, these dastardly activities cannot be compared to anything, this side of the third Reich and its monsterous WW II atrocities against humanity, and certainly makes the so-called "TERRORIST activities of the Arafats, Saddam's, Assad's, Abu Abbas's & company look like boy scouts work.

Moving on, I will also bring your attention to Israel's massacre of 28,000 civilians (while leaving 500,000 civilans maimed, wounded and homeless in its invasion of Lebanon, summer of 1982), this certainly makes it a RECORD SETTER in its own REICH, Ha-ha-ha-ha.

As for the meglomanics; Kim Jong, Saddam, China, Iran, Cuba,. Lemmie ask you, have you, of late, seen their steel clad tanks murdering children on their streets? ( Do the names: Jenin, Rufah and Ramallah (((ring))) a bell? ).

Ref: WWW.RememberTheseChildren.org

Also, please don't talk to me about "illegal" detentions, torture, kidnappings, withdrawl or the withholding of writs of Habeous Corpus, etc, etc. either; Herr John Ashcroft has CLOSED THAT GAP as the highly INVISABLE George W. Bush's, Gestapo Chieftan. Note: The US' GITMO concentration camp and Israel's KHIAM Torture Center have unfortunately brought us even with the rest of the world in that area.

See: WWW.Google.com and type in "Israel's Khiam torture Center," you will find it quite "interesting" I sure did.

Whirlwind.... :D

Pssst, as for democracies being held to a higher standard, why not? If you claim to have a better system (The only Democracy in the Middle East, for example) then you should be expected to be better than the local thugs and murderers in the local neighborhood rather than trying to emulate them as we see in Zionist Israel under the LIKUDNIK thugs and the IDF murderers.

Maigic potion?

You have lost your mind.

Once again, I have a solution!
1) Clone Napolian
2) Clone Stalin
3) Clone Hitler
4) Clone Mussinlini
5) Clone Mao and Ghengas Khan
That way all of the Europeans can have some leaders who actually have a pair of balls (well, one with hitler...).
Then, you can go go back to invading each other like you have for the past 1000 years. You can start to feel important! And you say the U.S. is a warmonger..........
My money is on Khan...........

What to do with the U.S.? Simple:

* Keep watching their Hollywood movies
* Keep buying their video games
* Keep buying their Windows softwares
* Keep buying their cars, guns, & excercise machines
* Keep eating at McDonalds, Burger King, Taco Bell & Wendy's.
* Keep singing their songs.
* Keep worshipping Britney Spears & Christina Aquilera.

Thank heavens for America. :D

Once again, I have a solution!
1) Clone Napolian
2) Clone Stalin
3) Clone Hitler
4) Clone Mussinlini
5) Clone Mao and Ghengas Khan

Why Clone?

http://www.sun-inet.or.jp/~mlbddf/bush.jpg

Europe unlike the US has actually learned it's lesson, it's called cognitive learning. The young US has yet to experiance the mass failures that the Europeans have in the past. Just sit back and relax, those Clones exist right now, in Washington.

Well, maybe I wouldnt clone Mussinlini, he was a pretty crappy leader.

Well if it took Europe a 1000 years to learn, I guess we have a long road in front of us :)

I suggest you don't use a SUV, you'll need all the miles you can get on that tank of gas. Hey I know use a Trabant!

http://www.zambonista.com/euro/trabant.jpg

USA, USA, USA

If driving that is in our future, I suggest we nuke ourselves.

You should either jump on the wagon on the side of freedom and human dignity with the United States or sit back and let the history books regard you as self-absorbed, consumed with hatred and not much different in regards to some terrorists, and rouge nations than the appeasers between the world wars.

I'm a fairly firm believe that Europe has lost its mind, joining the Middle East in the Crazies Club.

The only people I trust over there are firstly the British then maybe the Italians and the Poles. That's not to say that all Europeans are bad, but man-o-live a lot have gone off the deep end.

What to do with the U.S.? Simple:

* Keep watching their Hollywood movies
* Keep buying their video games
* Keep buying their Windows softwares
* Keep buying their cars, guns, & excercise machines
* Keep eating at McDonalds, Burger King, Taco Bell & Wendy's.
* Keep singing their songs.
* Keep worshipping Britney Spears & Christina Aquilera.

Thank heavens for America. :D

Better yet do it with MSPaint in 5 minutes or less:

http://webpages.charter.net/rylandpage/iraq.png

edit: I think Whirlwind is Abdullathebomber incognito

Maigic potion?

You have lost your mind.

Once again, I have a solution!
1) Clone Napolian
2) Clone Stalin
3) Clone Hitler
4) Clone Mussinlini
5) Clone Mao and Ghengas Khan
That way all of the Europeans can have some leaders who actually have a pair of balls (well, one with hitler...).
Then, you can go go back to invading each other like you have for the past 1000 years. You can start to feel important! And you say the U.S. is a warmonger..........
My money is on Khan...........


May as well clone Shaka of the Zulus too :)

But I still think Khan would win, if only because he's so badass.

And in other news...time and again I see people talking about oil, but never about these people: http://www.changingworldtech.com . They were featured in Discover Magazine in 2003...

And as to the neutrality thing, everyone knows King Bush won't let that sort of thing happen. Just look at how George treats people who want no part in his antics. Take the whole ITER thing (international fusion research organization), here (http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994571). Looks to me that if you don't go along with the US, they'll attack you in every way they possibly can, INCLUDING ON THE SCIENTIFIC front. Seems like we're not going to let people sit back and claim neutrality. Neutrality is sponsoring terrorism evidently :p

At any rate, I'm just waiting for the next mass plague to kill off 60% of humanity, that'll solve a lot of problems, or just add an interesting new dynamic...heh heh...

The US can provide enough food and natural gas for its own people, we also have put billions of dollars into developing clean and renewable energy sources such as fuel cell technology and several wind farms have been built on an experimental basis here in New England. So go ahead with your sanctions. Our economy is larger than that of all of Europe's plus Canada's combined and economists recently predicted that a global trade war would hurt Europe far more than it would the US. We purchase 86% of Canada's goods, not exactly a leveraged position for our neighbors to the North.

As the buyer of 25% of the world's oil, I'm sure someone will sell it to us until we don't need it anymore.

Kyoto was a bad deal as it would have shrunk our economy by 25% and China, India, Brazil and Russia, the world's other most populous industrialized countries, refused to join in. The US has reforested 10 million acres over the past decade and has the second largest protected wilderness of 800 million acres behind Canada's 1 billion acres.

The ICC was also a bad deal as the US typically has up to 500,000 troops stationed across the world at bases or on NATO or UN mandated missions. The next largest force that serves outside its borders is Germany with 10,000. Of course it wasn't equitable. George Bush agreed to ratify the treaty with the condition that he would start pulling troops from UN and NATO missions and remove troops from the demilitarized zone separating North and South Korea. That's when everyone decided it was a good idea to let us continue to do their dirty work.

It always amuses me how people assume that their human rights are somehow sacrosanct when the truth is, brave men and women have to die to protect them time and time again. Isn't this the crux of the argument always applied when defending the resistance in Iraq?

If not for the strength of the US many countries in Europe would not have had the leisure or the latitude to grow and thrive, particularly in light of their inability to solve problems oin their own backyard such as Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Armenia, Azerbaijan oh, and Serbia and Kosovo again!

Let "the gang" start pulling its own weight say, maybe twice in a row and then we'll talk about the US and what to do with her. Do you know what we'd like to do with all of you? Bet you can guess!!!!

What we should do with the USA?

Nothing.

Like the Roman Empire, USA will implode in on itself. And only then will the American people figure out what their priorities should have been.

Leave them to it. Lessons that come back like a boomerang of their own doing, are better than lessons imposed by others.

>> Leave them to it. Lessons that come back like a boomerang of their own doing, are better than lessons imposed by others.

Normally I would agree,

BUT even though the USA is foremost in trying to clean up its act re metal pois-oning the hangover will lead to destruction of the planet.... it is not their fault..

BUT the consequences will be just as catastrophic.

Shame humanity could have come together and so have an assured bright future.

Looks like a lot of people here see no problems with Americas attitude to the rest of the world.
Strangely enough they all seem to be American.

Go Figure.
Dee Cee

edit: I think Whirlwind is Abdullathebomber incognito

Yep. He's the most recent incarnation from the Arizona desert.

What we should do with the USA?

Nothing.

Like the Roman Empire, USA will implode in on itself. And only then will the American people figure out what their priorities should have been.

Leave them to it. Lessons that come back like a boomerang of their own doing, are better than lessons imposed by others.
The largest contributing factor to the Roman Empire's demise was that Rome could not keep in touch with its most distal colonies with enough expediency to maintain positive control over them. Basically, they overextended themselves beyond what their communication methods allowed. That's the largest of many differences between American hegemony and Roman imperialism.

Also remember that hegemony != imperialism, because only the latter involves involuntary servitude. I find a wide majority of aspersions cast upon the United States using the word "imperialism" to be poorly conceived and poorly informed by definition alone, not to mention the gross hyperbole of the whole thing.

originally posted bty Stokes Pennwalt
The largest contributing factor to the Roman Empire's demise was that Rome could not keep in touch with its most distal colonies with enough expediency to maintain positive control over them. Basically, they overextended themselves beyond what their communication methods allowed. That's the largest of many differences between American hegemony and Roman imperialism.That is one analysis.

The Roman Empire also got up themselves, and assumed that they would stay on top of the heap forever.

Part of your analogy suffices though. With the current warmongering attitude, should Bush win, and then go after Korea as well, or any other country he adds to the list, the USA will be even more over-extended than they are now. And they are almost too extended for both the human and munitions resources available as it is.

The USA is bordering on imperialism. They expect every other country to conform to their decisions, which is pretty close to involuntary servitude.

It is not poorly conceive or poorly informed for me to say that.

However you appear to be sadly deficient in your knowledge of what is going on in the rest of the world, and the unfair and illegal means that USA uses to interfere in other countries, to be able to recognise that the parallel is actually very accurate.

That too, is another very common trait I find amongst people who think that their country is the centre of the universe, and therefore they only have to look at their own navel.

I suggest you don't use a SUV, you'll need all the miles you can get on that tank of gas. Hey I know use a Trabant!
Hey, the trabant uses a two stroke engine, very bad for the environment. Besides, they handle like a lawnmower, accelerate like... well, they don't really accelerate that much, and the body is made of paper.

Hey, the trabant uses a two stroke engine, very bad for the environment. Besides, they handle like a lawnmower, accelerate like... well, they don't really accelerate that much, and the body is made of paper.

I know, it's very COMCON European. Cheap, badly built, but it gets the job done. What I was trying to say is that the US should drive around with humility not with arrogance like a SUV. Look weak; you will get more respect that way...

However you appear to be sadly deficient in your knowledge of what is going on in the rest of the world, and the unfair and illegal means that USA uses to interfere in other countries, to be able to recognise that the parallel is actually very accurate.
Generally when calling another's position deficient, one provides substantive evidence of why it is.

Look weak; you will get more respect that way...

You're telling me that cripples get more respect than professional athletes?

As an american i can say a few things. I support the USA however- We dont have a sense of nationalism-we have no doctrine- if i were to be drafted what am i fighting for? money? money only goes so far-money is only of value if we give it value- i would rather be fighting for a cause rather than globalization and capilalist means. So in a way i envy these people who give their lives to their cause-no matter if i agree with them or not. do u think an american would suicide bomb in the name of greed and money? NO! Thats why i think that just becuase america is rich doesnt mean its ideas or way of life is any better than other countries.

Example-Nigera is the worlds happiest population- but one of the poorest.

darktrooper,

Are you saying that Americans don't launch suicide bombs because we don't love our country enough? One thing I've noticed in Americans is a fierce nationalism, patriotism and pride whether it is coming from those supporting Bush or those against him. Has it occurred to you that most people in most places in the world don't launch suicide missions? By your logic they do not love their countries or any cause enough to do so. Suicide bombers are young kids whose youth and fervor are used against them by unscrupulous older people in power for political gain, the same as any military. How many 30 year olds are clamoring to get into the US armed forces? Not many.

The US has not done anything that any other country hasn't done or tried to do, such as France's constant military intervention in Africa, China's constant domination of smaller Asian countries and Britain's and Russia's propensity for dealing weapons to high-risk nations.

We have more money. That is the real sin for which no one is ever forgiven. The fact that Americans give more of it to overseas charity (34 billion) than any population in the world does not seem to be a mitigating factor in this resentment.

We have more money. That is the real sin for which no one is ever forgiven. The fact that Americans give more of it to overseas charity (34 billion) than any population in the world does not seem to be a mitigating factor in this resentment.
Don't be fucking stupid!
We don't give a shit about your money.
How about you stop killing strangers and we'll leave you alone to count your cash.

Is money really all America has to offer?
Dee Cee

Is money really all America has to offer?


You tell us. What is the last American goody you enjoyed lately? Lord of the Rings? Warcraft III? Microsoft Windows? Levis Jeans? Ford Vehicle? McDonalds? ;)

DeeCee,

If you had understood the entire post, you would see that the only difference between us and the rest of the world is our level of success at what we do. That is why we are hated, since I have already pointed out that there is a great deal more killing going on by a great deal more countries that does not involve the US. In Sudan alone 1.5 million Christians have been killed by Muslim extremists but Sudan is poor, so your conscience is not troubled. China and Russia have killed far more innocents than the US ever has, but again, no wealth, no problem. France and Britain make weapons dealing look like selling Girl Scout cookies, but they're not putting up a Starbucks in your neighborhood so it's fine. (Anyone remember Britain getting caught trying to sell missiles to India in 2002 while India and Pakistan were playing a dangerous game of nuclear brinksmanship? Of course you don't. It was reported on the BBC for about a week with nary a comment from the world.)

America offers a great deal to the world such as 75% of the humanitarian food aid, nearly half of all medical and scientific research, music, movies, fashion and we attract over 45 million tourists a year. We are also foremost in conjunction with Canada in wilderness preservation, with 800 million protected acres vs Canada's 1 billion and have reforested over 10 million acres in the last few years.

We have been pioneers in the fields of music, art, architecture, technology and medicine for the last hundred years.

Yet, for all this, our wealth, success and cultural ubiquity attract resentment and name-calling. I will happily rise above both.

>> If you had understood the entire post, you would see that the only difference between us and the rest of the world is our level of success at what we do.

drawn by supplying both sides of a war, before you joined in, and of course sustained no structural damage.........

You guys are a real bad neighbour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zarkov,

We purchase 86% of Canada's goods. Never hear any complaints about that, do we?

You tell us. What is the last American goody you enjoyed lately? Lord of the Rings? Warcraft III? Microsoft Windows? Levis Jeans? Ford Vehicle? McDonalds? ;)
American? LOL. I request that you prove that any thing can have a nationality in more than it was "created" by a human ignorant enough to associate himself with a nation.

Microsoft™ Windows™ in fact is trademarked everywhere in the world, and is the intellectual property of a publicly traded corporation owned in part by individuals of many nations, and is in large part developed in India. Woudln't that make it Universal, or in the very least least Indian/American?

The Lord of the Rings was filmed in in large part overseas, and written by a man born in South Africa and raised in Great Britain.

Warcraft is a game conceived within the scope of the great vision of Tolkien. It is no more than a rip-off of a non-American.

Ford vehicles are largely manufactured overseas. In fact, many of the ones that we drive are built in Mexico!

McDonalds are franchises. If one is eating a burger at a Mickey D's in Hamburg, Deutschland, I guarantee it's a native "hamburger" ;)

Food for oil isnt charity

the U.S. has over 24,000 nuclear warheads thats enought to blow up earth 40 times over and bush is planning a mars base to build more nukes without being monitored. after the cold war the ussr offered a treaty in which they would both disarm all their nukes, THE US DENIED!, they refused to sign the kyoto protocol to reduce bgreenhouse gas emissions; because of this it 50 years over 1,300 species of animal will be exticnt.

what we need to do it overthrow the governent now! and eliminate this threat that will cause the imminent destruction of our planet
:( :mad:

Fraggle Rocker,

A bit o.t., but i can not help but responding.


140 years after our own Civil War, Europe is finally taking its first baby steps towards being one nation a collection of constantly squabbling and often-warring mini-states.
Concerning "baby-steps", imagine that the EU has countries working together for implementing and maintaining a single currency and foreign policy, which were blood enemies only sixty years ago. I would like to quantify that as a huge step.


Except that they have a long way to go toward understanding the concept of unfettered interstate commerce. Polish citizens have to apply for a work permit before they can apply for a job in France.
Poland is not a member of the EU. In may of course, it will be.


Sixty years after the Holocaust, anti-Semitism is still rampant.
Where? I suppose it surfaces in neo-nazi organisations, but I assure you, the political wings of those organisations have little influence due to the fact that most Europeans are appalled by their agenda.


Not that we've totally abolished it over here, but many Jews who are not happy in Israel settle here and find it tolerable. How many go to France or Slovakia?
Have no idea, but I have not heard of Jews feeling considerable discomfort in Western Europe.


You Euros who speak of our country being "run by Jews" are so ignorant that it's downright amusing.
I think I can safely say that the view you are pointing out is not shared by the majority of Europeans, or at least, EU citizens.


The "Jews" you keep pointing out hysterically are assimilated, secularized and often married to Christians.
You are implying a conscious effort from the government or otherwise influencual organisations to strip Jews of their religion, only to arrange a marriage with a Christian? Of course, this is not the case.


You treat your Muslims far worse than we do. Outlawing head scarves, beating them up, keeping them in ghettos, restricting them to menial labor.
Outlawing headscarves in public governmental positions is implemented in France. That is not the entire EU, and certainly not the entire continent. Moreover, the argument presented in that case is not targeting Islam specifically, but on whether or not wearing religious symbols in a public govermental function is in conflict with the secular nature of the government. Beatings? Of course this is not tolerated, and prosecutable by law. If it happens, it is incidental and certainly not stuctural. Restricting them to ghettos? I was not even aware of the existance of full-fletched ghettos in the EU on the scale the USA harbors them. Having said that, it is true that regions with lower rents tend to house more recently immigrated families. Which can make some sense, if we take into account that it does take time for an immigrant family to get educated in the local language and to climb on the social and financial stairway.


Ours are computer programmers, actuaries, university professors, and engineers. They live among us, send their children to the same schools (in head scarves), and shop in the same markets so we all get to know each other.
What makes you think Muslims have lesser chance here? By law they are guaranteed the same opportunities as everyone else. What did get a lot of media attention was the sharpening polarisation between immigrants and non-immigrants, but let me assure you: European constitutions do not allow discriminating treatments on basis of religion.


Pull our armies out of the Mideast. Stop arming Israel and Saudi Arabia and Kazakhstan and every Muslim dictator who cozies up to us. Stop pretending that we know how to resolve ethnic and religious hatreds that were already ancient before our country even existed.
We're back on topic, and I agree with you on your points.

It seems a bit hypocratic for Europe, or the EU as the most dominant political force in Europe, to look down on the USA with such contempt, as we are guilty of exactly the same practices in our recent past. Having experienced the consequences of acting on megalomaniacal illusions, I do think the EU should take a political stand towards the US. Being allies does not imply agreeing with everything the US does. However, it does imply that the manner of disagreeing is within the bounds of diplomatic channels. Hate talk, and wildly shouting accusations is not going to help anyone.

vslayer

"they refused to sign the kyoto protocol to reduce bgreenhouse gas emissions; because of this it 50 years over 1,300 species of animal will be exticnt."

We signed the Kyoto Protocol then refused to ratify it when China, Brazil, India and Russia would not. They are the three most populated industrialized countries besides the US and the Protocol would have shrunk our economy by 25% while the most populated areas of the world continued to on their polluting ways.

The US already recycles, contains the second most protected wilderness in the world, uses unleaded gas (something not done in many part of the world including the Middle East) and is dedicating billions of dollars to developing clean, renewable energy sources.

Not only has it been stated by several environmental scientists that Kyoto really wouldn't do much good in the long run, of the 186 countries that signed and ratified, emissions have increased and not decreased in 90% of them.

You should get your whole story straight before you get hysterical.

If you had understood the entire post, you would see that the only difference between us and the rest of the world is our level of success at what we do.
Thats because the rest of the world isn't trying to emulate you.
Oh you can post a link now about all those despots and 'democratic' leaders who come grovelling to the door of the whitehouse in search of power and prestige but leaders do not a population make.
So America is so wonderfull you can see no reason why the average joes of the world should have a problem with you?
Well then I see your point, It just has to be the money that we are all so envious of. :rolleyes:

On planet America ignorance really is bliss and education a dislocating experience.
And for the record.

You tell us. What is the last American goody you enjoyed lately? Lord of the Rings? Warcraft III? Microsoft Windows? Levis Jeans? Ford Vehicle? McDonalds?
I read LOR before the money men flushed Tom Bombadil from history along with the eternal truths of the brothers Grim. I've never played warcraft, My copy of windows is a pirate (Hail 'reset v5') and my machine can duel boot to linux should I prefer a secure system that I know I can control. Levi? Ford?
Just names man, names. If your asking if I wear clothes and drive the answer is yup. I have to drive because my local store closed a few years ago and my local 'Walmart international subsiduary' is five miles from my house. I don't think I really get your point. How can American pants be better than Lithuanian ones? They're both pants.
McDonalds? Don't make me laugh. It ain't nothing to be proud of.

Try being a little more honest with yourselves then you may understand why the niggers of the world are still dying and hating despite the coins you throw them.
Dee Cee

Fraggle Rocker, A bit o.t., but i can not help but responding.For which I thank you profusely. It's reassuring to hear from a more mainstream European who doesn't echo the alarming opinions of some of the other posters.
Concerning "baby-steps", imagine that the EU has countries working together for implementing and maintaining a single currency and foreign policy, which were blood enemies only sixty years ago. I would like to quantify that as a huge step.Those are governments who are working together. Is this love affair sanctioned by the people? We get just as warped a view of the outside world from TV as you do. We're taught that the English and the French hate each other just as much as they did in 1066, and that most Europeans would happily roll back Perestroika just for the safety of having Germany cut into two smaller pieces that couldn't start World War III.
I suppose it [antisemitism] surfaces in neo-nazi organisations, but I assure you, the political wings of those organisations have little influence due to the fact that most Europeans are appalled by their agenda. Have no idea, but I have not heard of Jews feeling considerable discomfort in Western Europe. I think I can safely say that the view you are pointing out is not shared by the majority of Europeans, or at least, EU citizens.Thanks for the reassurance.
You are implying a conscious effort from the government or otherwise influential organisations to strip Jews of their religion, only to arrange a marriage with a Christian? Of course, this is not the case.Actually I was speaking of the American Jewish community. It's not a government plot at all, it's just assimilation, something that happens naturally when one people accepts another as family. Their elders are having apoplexy over the rapid rate of assimilation. Apparently they didn't bother to understand what the phrase "melting pot" really means before deciding to bring their families over here. The same thing happened in China. Sometime around 1,000 years ago some of the wandering Jews made it to western China and were welcomed with little fanfare as fellow civilized Homo sapiens. Within a few generations they had completely melted into the population by intermarriage. Ironic that love and tolerance can do what centuries of hatred and discrimination can't.
Outlawing headscarves in public governmental positions is implemented in France. That is not the entire EU, and certainly not the entire continent. Moreover, the argument presented in that case is not targeting Islam specifically, but on whether or not wearing religious symbols in a public govermental function is in conflict with the secular nature of the government.I can see both sides of that argument and I reluctantly (as a non-religious person) vote for letting people wear their scarves and crucifixes and yarmulkes. At least that way they will come and live and work with us and get to know us. The alternative is to pressure them into building their own schools where the extremists among them can get away with teaching bigotry.
What makes you think Muslims have lesser chance here? By law they are guaranteed the same opportunities as everyone else.Again, I suppose it's just our media. If a bunch of skinheads beat up a Turkish family in Muenchen it makes the TV news in America. If it weren't so sad it would be amusing that these are the same media that some of our fellow SciForums members continually accuse of being nothing but mouthpieces for the Zionists. When a Muslim gets mistreated in America it dominates the news for days. When our skinheads burn down a synagogue it's on page 28 for one day.
It seems a bit hypocritical ["hippocratic" is the oath that doctors take. :)] for Europe, or the EU as the most dominant political force in Europe, to look down on the USA with such contempt, as we are guilty of exactly the same practices in our recent past.Thank you! I'm sure a Martian anthropologist would find no significant difference between us.

If America is such a bad place why do peolpe risk their lives to get in?

If America is such a bad place why do peolpe risk their lives to get in?
It's only bad to people on the outside :)

this is a great post. it shows the diversity of feelings about the hegemonic position of the us nowadays. i for one feel that if the us wants to mantain it's leadership it should change the current administration politic of doing so by force, and should rather start behaving as an international law abiding country. this can't be done if the government refuses to sign every single treaty whic might implie any obligation towards the international society.

i've read some really well argumented posts although I strongly disagree with some of them. unfortunately, next to them i've had to see some posted by the typical conservative and ignorant redneck farmer who claims to be a the protype of a free man but is always the first to follow anything an authority tells him to. this is the reason why the international intelectual community thinks so little of the average american.

however i must say that ther are some extreme positions. people who blame united states for all of their countries' problems have a very simple mind, most of those problems have much more to do with their own faults and mistakes thn with any kin of us intervention; but so do those naive persons who think everything the us government has ever done has been for the greater good of mankind. go watch bowling for columbine and educate yourselves

If the USA didn't oppress the Middle East like it has - there wouldn't be Islamic terrorism today.

What do the actions of some very troubled youths at Columbine have to do with US foreign policy?

What do the actions of some very troubled youths at Columbine have to do with US foreign policy?

"We will show the world that we will pass the test."

"Either you are with us, or...."

"We will not stop, we will not tire"

"Bring Them On!"

"Let tyrants fear!"

"I am the right..."

George Walker Bush.


It's an attitude thing.
Dee Cee

So a pair of deceased, angsty, sociopathic, bedwetting teenagers in a quaint suburban American town have a direct correlation to the present foreign policy of the United States?

My, what a compelling argument! I suggest you notify your MP right away!

What do the actions of some very troubled youths at Columbine have to do with US foreign policy?

i don't quite understand why people venture on commenting about something without having any basis on doing so. i'm guessing you either didn't watch bowling for columbine, or you were asleep during most of it. having the massacre at Columbine as its main them it explores other topics, including us foreign policy, and giving some very hard to believe nevertheless real statistics about us intervention.

vslayer-
nuclear weapons among superpowers is not scary as all. MAD-mutually assured destruction.With MAD in place it becomes a peace maker, if i push the little red button your dead-but so am I. I am worried about little 3rd world countries and terrorists with nukes.

If the USA didn't oppress the Middle East like it has - there wouldn't be Islamic terrorism today.One hundred percent wrong. BEEEEP! How do you explain the Chechens? Islamic terrorism against the Russian people whom they regard as their oppressors. Or the Kosovars? Islamic terrorism against the Slavic people whom they regard as their oppressors. Or the Palestinians? Islamic terrorism against the Israeli people whom they regard as their oppressors. And just how do you account for the assholes in Bali? Islamic terrorism against the Australian people... I don't think there's any way they could regard them as oppressors.

The religions of Abraham somehow instill a sense in their believers that violence is acceptable if not downright commendable. The Christians have been practicing it for more than 1,000 years and so have the Muslims. Once we gave the Jews a country of their own they started doing their best to catch up.

I know there has been other religiously-inspired violence in the world, but no one has practiced it as consistently, as proudly, and for as long as the three peoples who believe in patriarchal monotheism.

For all who hate the U.S., take a look in the history books.

What you acuse the U.S. of doing has been going on for thousands of years before it even existed. And now we're rebuilding an enitre nation that we just took over, and handing back power. Did anything of the sort happen during European Colonialism of Africa? It seems many people forget how that entire continent was screwed over by Europe, who, after they departed, left those African nations for dead.

How do you explain the Chechens? Islamic terrorism against the Russian people whom they regard as their oppressors. Or the Kosovars? Islamic terrorism against the Slavic people whom they regard as their oppressors. Or the Palestinians? Islamic terrorism against the Israeli people whom they regard as their oppressors. And just how do you account for the assholes in Bali? Islamic terrorism against the Australian people... I don't think there's any way they could regard them as oppressors.

.

Youre right - I take my statement back :)

>> For all who hate the U.S.,

Nah, no one should hate anyone.... nobody hates the american people or the "ammmmerican way", well the old way of fairness and opportunity.

People are in fear of what absolute power is doing to a fine democracy
Propaganda has become a fine art, double speak is poliferating.

I would just wish the power would look to the real future... and restrain.

A world alliance is required where boundrys and the right to exist are guarded by all.

It is our lives that are on the stake here, and American power has the match lit.
IMO
(:

I am an American and I love my country for the freedom that it represents. I fear my government for what I believe that absolute power will do to it. I currently support the war in Iraq but I do not like the shortcuts to justice and rights that the bush administration has been taking with enemy combatants. I believed that it might have been barely tolerable when the regime was doing it to non-Americans. I do not believe that there is any justification for it at all to deal with American citizens. I believe that we have to extend to foreign nationals the same basic rights that an American has when they are in America’s control. We can already see the erosion that occurs in our own rights when we deny other people their rights.

I believe in America’s strength to be able to change when it must to meet the challenges of new situations. The troubles that we are currently having are the results of the excesses of a few and they will be dealt with shortly.

Why don't we let America rule the world. If its so good and democratic, surely we'd end up with not just a land, but a whole world of opportunity!

Yeah America isnt perfect, but who is? Love it or leave it. I dont know why people are so against colonialism. Look at history, weaker countries or people are always taken over by stronger ones. If it wasnt for colonial expansion half the damn world would still be chucking spears and rocks. I say make room for the new world order(cant last forever)

i would like to educate people from united states in one thing i know for a fact you are wrong. your country's name it's not America, it is United States of America. America is actually the whole mass of land separating The Pacific Ocean from the Atlantic Ocean, and it goes from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego.

"i would like to educate people from united states in one thing i know for a fact you are wrong. your country's name it's not America, it is United States of America. America is actually the whole mass of land separating The Pacific Ocean from the Atlantic Ocean, and it goes from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego. "

Gosh, derSteppenwolf, is that right? I feel so educated now. No kidding. Americans call our country America because we like to, not because we have no idea what the U and the S stand for.

Zarkov,

If people didn't hate Americans we would not be subject to much of the very personal insults and degrading remarks that exist on this forum and others like it, for example, der Steppenwolf's insinuation that he needed to educate ignorant Americans about our own country's name. (Non-Americans who obsess about the collective weight of Americans are not objective parties.)

Americans' anti-worldism came AFTER the world's anti-Americanism. Prior to that it was more of an American global indifference. If anti-Americanism wasn't personal people wouldn't have been so upset when we won so many medals during the Winter Olympics. People would not have booed Serena Williams during the French Open. People would not boo our twelve year old hocky players who travelled to Canada for a tournament. People would not insult American tourists on a regular basis as we hear time and time again.

We are always being told by the international community to take a good, long look at ourselves in the mirror. I am turning that mirror back around. It's about time the international community took a look at itself and tried to figure out why we're not listening.

i would like to educate people from united states in one thing i know for a fact you are wrong. your country's name it's not America, it is United States of America. America is actually the whole mass of land separating The Pacific Ocean from the Atlantic Ocean, and it goes from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego.

Technically, the Western Hemisphere is not 'America', but 'The Americas', broken up into North, Middle, and South. But saying I'm a North American or a United States of American is awkward to say, and just takes too damn long, so I say I'm an American, or from the States.

Why don't we just lurk under the surface biding our time and slowly withdrawing all links in preparation for the big attack like New Zealand? You've been warned, no country is Nuclear-Free.

>> Paula:- If people didn't hate Americans we would not be subject to much of the very personal insults and degrading remarks that exist on this forum and others like it


mmmmh, humans are funny creatures, I wonder if you yanks know where Tasmania is ??

From here we hardly know anything of your country, other than what the movies show.... and that today is total violence and aggression, rudeness and disrespect !!!

If America is so violent, I wonder why ?... Don't you think such an attitude is exported ?

Maybe something is wrong, shouldn't you be concerned ?

We don't even lock our doors here, and in some places we even leave the keys in the ignition of the car.

Are we Tasmanian's stupid or shouldn't life be like that ??

Maybe something is wrong, shouldn't you be concerned ?
They kill each other at a rate of over 15,000 (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) every year! Some years the murder rate is higher than Baghdads (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105954,00.html)!
It would be much worse if they didn't have one of the best emergency services around.

"Against a baseline of 1960, we estimate that without this technology, the U.S. would presently be experiencing 45,000 to 70,000 homicides a year instead of an actual 15,000 to 20,000," say the researchers in the report.
http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/archive/2002/073102rate.html

And they worry about 'terrorists'. :confused:
LoL
Dee Cee

Yo Zarkov!
Here's hoping nobody mentions the fate of native Tasmanians :D
Dee Cee

>> Here's hoping nobody mentions the fate of native Tasmanians


mmmh, please do not mention that "momentary lapse of reason". LOL
:)

Hmm yes, the native Tasmanians, tragic story. Deplorable really. Just for you Zarkov, I won't go into it... let you save some face.. :p


Are we Tasmanian's stupid or shouldn't life be like that ??
And being a non-Tasmanian Australian, I'm not even going to touch that one :p... just kidding... it's one of the most beautiful parts of the world.. just hope it stays that way and the loggers don't get their way. :)

Now as to the topic at hand....

The US is hated because of the way it tries to ram its culture and what it deems to be 'good' down the throats of everyone else. Travel to any developed country and even undeveloped country in the world now and all one sees are the symbols exported by the US. You see very little of the native cultures in other countries because the US has permeated all aspects of these cultures. Walk down any street in just about any country in the world and you'll see either a McDonalds, KFC, Pizza Hut and others fast food joint... or Coke, Nike, Reebok, Tiger Woods, etc, adds everywhere. Just about all shows on TV are from the US. People in other countries are told that they've succeeded if they've managed to live their lives as an imitation of the 'typical American'.. with house, mortgage, big car, big tv, same dress, fashion and hair style, etc... you're getting my drift..

Lets face it, the US is a great advertising agency. But it's a shame that the so called American ideal is destroying the cultures of every country on the globe.

Bells---instead of bitching about it, why dont you start boycotting these companies. People around the world dont HAVE to buy the product!

all the americans that replied to this thread missed a few key point in the question, what can the rest of the world do about usa, so once again you americans are just going where you are not welcome

Lets face it, People are always going to bad mouth those who are "on top"

thegreat---My response was make room for the new world order.

you keep believing what your tv tells you buddy one of the main reasons for the war on iraq was to get your stupid country out of the red

Zarkov,

I do not lock my doors, or my car and often leave my purse, wallet or other items in the car, so I'm not sure what point you're making. There is crime in certain large cities and some lesser crime in other places but I have never experienced it and virtually everyone I know has lived a life free of crime. Well, my mother's pumpkin was stolen off her front stair one Halloween several years ago, so I guess we'll call that a crime.

Although the crime numbers are high, it is because we have a population of 300 million but our crime rate makes us a medium crime nation on a par with England, France and Canada, not a high crime nation, according to Interpol and the UN Crime Victims' Survey.

It's funny you should mention our crime rate (which is at a thirty year low while it rises in much of the rest of the world) as the new reason there's something wrong with Americans as that was not one of the reasons I had actually given, nor had anyone else previously. Since you did not seem to realize that our crime rate was down, I might point out that you have merely repeated an incorrect stereotype.

I assume, since you switched subjects, that you do not have rebuttals to my prior statements. You claim you get the bulk of your information about Americans from movies...well, that statement speaks for itself as I can imagine the insults any American would receive making the same admission. "Those dumbk Yanks get all their info from movies"...or something along those lines.

US students have won the National Geographic geography competition all but once in the last ten years, 47% of all research emanates from the US and 500 of the top 800 universities are in the US, so I would have to say that the problem of locating Tasmania would not be an insurmountable burden to many Americans. Of course, it wouldn't do to undermine the image of the ignorant American so please, keep on with your stereotyping. If nothing else, I feel vindicated.

paula you may have a lot of smart people in your country but at the end of the day, the percentige of dumb people would definatly be the largest in the world, sorry but wake up and smell the dumb shit

i america the first few years of university is the same as the last couple of years at high school in australia, scince america has such a huge drop out rate before the end of high school, i can not understand why you cant see that your country is made up of twits

Bells---instead of bitching about it, why dont you start boycotting these companies. People around the world dont HAVE to buy the product!
What makes you think I don't boycott these companies, but they're so everywhere that they've eliminated any competition. They have not just encroached, but taken over. Here in lies the problem.

What you fail to realise is that it's not just a matter of boycotting. It's a matter of the fact that the US being such a good advertiser has managed to brainwash people into thinking that their way is best. That their products are the ones people should buy to be just like the grinning fools on tv.

I stood in line at a supermarket the other day behind a couple of US tourists, and I gritted my teeth as they were remarking how 'everything was just like it was back home' and how they 'could even buy the same foods as they eat back home'. I look at the way US citizens behave when overseas and it makes me cringe. For example, they don't even bother learning the very basics of the native languages of the countries they visit as they expect that all must speak english. Most people when visiting other countries would at least try to learn the basics of the language. The problem is that many Americans expect that things are to be 'just like home'.

Dark, you've failed to realise that the new world order is already upon us, and it's damn ugly. People in other countries are so busy trying to get satellite dishes so that they can watch US shows, buy coke and pepsi, McDonalds, etc, that they leave behind their own cultural roots. When someone visits another country, you don't want to find it as 'being just like home'. You should want to be able to experience other cultures. It's all become one big melting pot, where we all dress the same, eat the same foods, watch the same shows on tv, drive the same cars. Individual cultures are disappearing under the constant barrage of the US culture and ideals.

I feel the greatest threat to the U.S. is stereotyping. Everyone who lives outside the U.S. labels us as group of cowboys completely united in our insanity, and wanting to rule the world. Not everyone here wanted George Bush to be president, in fact more people voted for Al Gore. Some of you outside the U.S. might remember that election recount. Gore won the popular vote, but bush got the vote of the electoral college and became the prez. It wasn't but a few years ago that we were accepted, and had strong alliances with European countries. I don't know what sort of president John Kerry will be, but he couldn't possibly be any worse. I hope that if he wins he will spend some time fixing the American image.

Bells,
You said that you "look at the way US citizens behave when overseas and it makes me cringe. For example, they don't even bother learning the very basics of the native languages of the countries they visit as they expect that all must speak english". It's the same everywhere, I live in the US and deal with people from all over the world and most people are drawn to what is familiar. Mexicans live in groups or near other Mexicans, we have Chinatowns all over our major cities, Indians befriend other Indians, and many people from other countries form clubs or associations and celebrate there holidays or religions together. And thousands of these people spend the rest of their lives here and never learn to speak English. I myself had spent several months in Thailand, I learned a few words and phrases, and enjoyed the food and culture very much, but after a while it was nice to be able to get a cheeseburger.

"i would like to educate people from united states in one thing i know for a fact you are wrong. your country's name it's not America, it is United States of America. America is actually the whole mass of land separating The Pacific Ocean from the Atlantic Ocean, and it goes from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego. "

Gosh, derSteppenwolf, is that right? I feel so educated now. No kidding. Americans call our country America because we like to, not because we have no idea what the U and the S stand for.

Zarkov,

If people didn't hate Americans we would not be subject to much of the very personal insults and degrading remarks that exist on this forum and others like it, for example, der Steppenwolf's insinuation that he needed to educate ignorant Americans about our own country's name. (Non-Americans who obsess about the collective weight of Americans are not objective parties.)

Americans' anti-worldism came AFTER the world's anti-Americanism. Prior to that it was more of an American global indifference. If anti-Americanism wasn't personal people wouldn't have been so upset when we won so many medals during the Winter Olympics. People would not have booed Serena Williams during the French Open. People would not boo our twelve year old hocky players who travelled to Canada for a tournament. People would not insult American tourists on a regular basis as we hear time and time again.

We are always being told by the international community to take a good, long look at ourselves in the mirror. I am turning that mirror back around. It's about time the international community took a look at itself and tried to figure out why we're not listening.


Paula, not only i do not hate americans, but i think it's a great country, have american relatives, and like to visit it every once in a while. also i speak from having known many personal friends from USA who told me I was wrong by saying America meant something else than the United States of America. i do think you can referr to your country as you may wish, but that does`nt make it right.

this is actually pretty close to being right:


Technically, the Western Hemisphere is not 'America', but 'The Americas', broken up into North, Middle, and South. But saying I'm a North American or a United States of American is awkward to say, and just takes too damn long, so I say I'm an American, or from the States.

Still the word America does applie to a continent such as i described on my earlier post. It is a word first used by a german writer in honor to Americo Vespucio, an italian cartographer working for the spanish crown who made the first sketch of a map for the recently discovered continent.

Yeah America isnt perfect, but who is? Love it or leave it. It isn't the USA that some of us hate, it is the attitude of ignorance that some of our "American bretheren" portray (such as your post here).

I'm picking on your post for a few reasons. First, let's assume that I believe in this whole tribal nationalistic nonsense. Your statement "Love it or leave it" implies that if we don't support the position of the establishment 100%, we ought not be a part of America.

Well, you couldn't be more wrong. Speaking out against your leaders and expressing your dissent when they don't represent you appropriately (remember, this is "representative" govenrment) IS WHAT MADE AMERICA GREAT.

If you would suggest that we take that power away from the people, then raise your right hand and evoke a "Hail Bush" and support the eventual onslaught of your arabic neighbors. If and when it happens, I'm gonna skin out and head for Europe.

Technically, the Western Hemisphere is not 'America', but 'The Americas', broken up into North, Middle, and South. But saying I'm a North American or a United States of American is awkward to say, and just takes too damn long, so I say I'm an American, or from the States. ”

Well, if this MUST become a semantics battle, technically, you're wrong, and speaking from an ethnocentric ("American" LOL) point of view.

Most of the world teaches that "North America" and "South America" are one continent called (you guessed it!) "America".

Because the United States of America chooses to divide this continent into two does not make it universally so.

Transio,

When people say "Love it or leave it" I don't think they're generally referring to people who love the USA but want to improve it. Most of us do that. I think they're referring to people who actually hate the US and work againstr her interests or complain about how hard life is. "Love it or leave it" doesn't necessarily mean you have to go, it means you can choose to go. Why live in a country that makes you miserable when millions are trying to get in? No one is saying "Love it or we'll kick you out" or "Love it or we'll kill you". You have the option to go if it becomes intolerable. Many people do not have that option.

Let the US keep on doing what it is doing, we just have to sit back relax and enjoy the show.

Did you enjoy the WTC fireworks? :confused:

Whirlwind....

Paula, thank you for your interpretation of dark trooper's statement, but I prefer my own. Furthermore, I believe it's possible to hate America or Americans and have a valid reason for staying. Thanks, anyway!

Transio,

When people say "Love it or leave it" I don't think they're generally referring to people who love the USA but want to improve it. Most of us do that. I think they're referring to people who actually hate the US and work againstr her interests or complain about how hard life is. "Love it or leave it" doesn't necessarily mean you have to go, it means you can choose to go. Why live in a country that makes you miserable when millions are trying to get in? No one is saying "Love it or we'll kick you out" or "Love it or we'll kill you". You have the option to go if it becomes intolerable. Many people do not have that option.


Always interesting in listening at the "original" trespassers... :p

BTW: Where is your GREEN CARD Gringo?! :D

Whirlwind....

Pepe LePew: "And in the end, they even stole our name: "Americans!"

Like Israel, the US claims to be a perfect democracy, but when people want to hold them to a HIGHER STANDARD they bolt! :confused:

Whirlwind....

I know that most people here don't like the American government. Most Americans don't either, well not completelety. I know that it's a democracy, but when it comes to wars, and foreign policy, the citizens don't have much (if any) power to change things. But my question is this. How do you feel about Americans as individuals?

you can never make general statement applying to all american individuals. being a complex society ther are many different kind of persons or even groups. i've made clear i don't like the conservative little town american's way of thinking(usually). however, this can't be extended to rest of USA's population. that's an error just like saying all arabs are religious fanatics or somthing of that sort.

I know that most people here don't like the American government. Most Americans don't either, well not completelety. I know that it's a democracy, but when it comes to wars, and foreign policy, the citizens don't have much (if any) power to change things. But my question is this. How do you feel about Americans as individuals?

All the Americans I know well, are great people. But then, birds of a feather flock together. There are lots of Americans I have met in passing, who conveyed such a shallow perspective of life, that I had no incentive to attempt to make friends.

And is that no so, in all nations? There are people in my own country I don't care to associate with.

Whirl, I did enjoy the fireworks over Baghdad they were very pretty seen thru the night vision of our advancing tank corpse. I did feel bad for the innocent people who got hurt. I guess that is what separates our two viewpoints. It seems that you take great delight in the death of any American. I do not delight in the death of any one who does not hate me or mine.

Well, if this MUST become a semantics battle, technically, you're wrong, and speaking from an ethnocentric ("American" LOL) point of view.

Most of the world teaches that "North America" and "South America" are one continent called (you guessed it!) "America".

Because the United States of America chooses to divide this continent into two does not make it universally so.

Then technically, since I'm an American, and that's what Americans are taught, I'm right. ;) As you said, in the US we are taught that the Western Hemisphere is two continents, North and South, and they are two of the seven continents of the world. So as an American, I'm correct when I say the 'Americas'. But are you telling me that the rest of the world is taught that there are only six continents? Why would you consider the Western Hemisphere one continent?


Still the word America does applie to a continent such as i described on my earlier post. It is a word first used by a german writer in honor to Americo Vespucio, an italian cartographer working for the spanish crown who made the first sketch of a map for the recently discovered continent.

Yes, I know the story of Amerigo Vespucci. He made at least two trips to the Americas, possibly more, following Columbus' first couple of visits. He drew up maps of the New World in the early 16th century, and a German mapmaker named the discoveries America after him. I think this was mainly because Columbus was still convinced he had traveled to India and the Far East in his voyages. Columbus didn't know he had discovered a new world.

Then technically, since I'm an American, and that's what Americans are taught, I'm right. ;) As you said, in the US we are taught that the Western Hemisphere is two continents, North and South, and they are two of the seven continents of the world. So as an American, I'm correct when I say the 'Americas'. But are you telling me that the rest of the world is taught that there are only six continents? Why would you consider the Western Hemisphere one continent?

anyone can be taught anything. does everything u are taught is always right? no. what matters is what's correct, an what u are taught is not, that's the bottom line.

why should you consider it two? and what about central america? by the way my main complain was that the united states is definately not america. since we've agreed there is a north america and a south america, which u call the americas, how can a single country of north america be america. it´s like a part containing the whole(clearly, a contradiction). think of europe. could a part of eastern europe, be called just europe. would't make sense.

anyone can be taught anything. does everything u are taught is always right? no. what matters is what's correct, an what u are taught is not, that's the bottom line.

If you were taught that the Americas are only one continent then I think the bottom line is you were taught wrong. Why think of the Western Hemisphere as only one continent? It's two large land masses connected by one little strip of isthmus. It would make more sense to consider Europe/Asia as one continent since it really is one large land mass.


which u call the americas, how can a single country of north america be america. it´s like a part containing the whole(clearly, a contradiction).

There is no single country called America, but I still refer to myself as an American, because on the North American continent there is only 3 countries, Mexico, Canada, and the United States, so it is easy to distinguish between Mexicans, Canadians and citizens of the US who refer to themselves as Americans. For someone living in South America, where there are so many countries, it would be rather confusing for the people of any one country to refer to themselves as simply an American.


think of europe. could a part of eastern europe, be called just europe. would't make sense.

You're right. It would make no sense. Europe is more densely packed with countries than North America, even moreso than South America. It really would be confusing for Europeans to refer to themselves as European in another European country. But if I'm in Mexico or Canada and say I'm an American, they know exactly where I'm from. Of course, anywhere I'm visiting on the North American continent I'm more likely to say I'm a Insert Home State Here, rather than I'm an American. But in visiting Europe I've never known anyone to be confused if I said I was an American, so apparently the term is universally accepted.

BTW, I asked how many continents you are taught there is. 6 or 7?

i understand what you are saying, but those are all circunstancial, non factual considerations. i spoke of logical arguments. yet you seem to agree united states its not america. so i guess i can live with u guys calling yourself americans, i know it wouldn't be right either to call u northamericans leaving out canadians and mexicans. or unitedstatesians which is a word that doesn't exist. so.... whatever

6, this includes antarctica. old geography counted only 5.

i've liked discussing with you though.

i understand what you are saying, but those are all circunstancial, non factual considerations. i spoke of logical arguments.

When I say I was taught that the Western Hemisphere is two separate continents, I am speaking a factual, logical argument. It makes more sensee to me to consider the two land masses as separate continents It just may differ from what you're taught.


yet you seem to agree united states its not america.

That's true. I do agree. It's the US of A.


or unitedstatesians which is a word that doesn't exist. so.... whatever

See what I mean. It would be a bitch to have to refer to myself that way. American is much easier.


6, this includes antarctica. old geography counted only 5.

I was taught 7, including Antarctica. Interesting what you said about old geography. What were the 5 continents before, and what are the 6 now?


i've liked discussing with you though.

Ditto. I learned something new.

bells---I agree that many companies own too much to fail no matter what. Humans r not built to live in such a society. If I had enough money(since the sick world revolves around it) I would move into the mountains. I would hunt ans gather my own way to survive. I cant wait for people to bring down this empire---just like the roman or egyption. We are selfish to think that our way of life wont end. history proves that all civ'z come to an end.

I think this whole issue of 6 continents is interesting enough to deserve a poll to determine what exactly the rest of the world does think about this.

This it the first time I've ever heard this.

Where should it be placed? Earth Science?

edit: I put it in Earth Science.

I would move into the mountains. I would hunt ans gather my own way to survive. I cant wait for people to bring down this empire---just like the roman or egyption.
I think this is the way to bring it down. Stop participating in the system, stop supporting corporations. Has anyone noticed the more coporations/industry is deregulated the more regulated the individual? I suppose thats a thread in itself.

Israel is the curse of the Middle East.

A thief that does "wonders" with what it has stolen from its rightful owner is still a thief. :mad:

"3,000 years and 150 nations and the Jew never finds room at the inn," and after flogging the Nazi's to death now they want to blame the Arabs for their "eternal" misery.

Besides, those that believe that their G-D gave them the Holy land must contend with another 124 "GODS" that are worshipped around the world.

Personally, I believe that by 2050 "neither" the US nor Israel will show a trace of the rabble rousers that created the borders, stole the land, built the barbed wire fences, and profited by the thievery, thuggery and despotism of their ROBBER BARON forefathers. :mad:

Whirlwind....

what happened to "walk softly and carry a big stick"? Generally, that works pretty well.

This recent (relatively) "Stomp heavily, beat chest and swing big stick around wildly" method of forein policy doesn't work for anyone.

what happened to "walk softly and carry a big stick"? Generally, that works pretty well.

This recent (relatively) "Stomp heavily, beat chest and swing big stick around wildly" method of forein policy doesn't work for anyone.

It makes the defense contractors more money...Halliburton is rolling in cash right now. All of this is planned...its all about money :)

the whole world hates America. after America falls from a super poer, the next super power will probably destroy it.

"i america the first few years of university is the same as the last couple of years at high school in australia, scince america has such a huge drop out rate before the end of high school, i can not understand why you cant see that your country is made up of twits"

errrr yeah thats we have the worlds biggest economy and one of the highest standards of living- because we are all a bunch of twits.......I hope your not using a computer...odds are the software you are using was made by a twit...same with the computer (or at least invented by a twit)....maybe you should just go outside and use smoke signals...I mean the telephone was invented by a twit (thought the brits might disagree)...then there is AC and DC power- both developed by twits....I hope you dont use anytype of machinery, being that it was probably massed produced, a concept developed once again by a twit! I hope you dont used cotton, you do know that a twit developed the cotton gin? ohhh the list goes on and on....in fact why are you even on the net? Dont you know it was developed by Twits in the US? Good Lord, go outside and play with some rocks.

What you stupid fools dont realize and obviously cannot understand is that we "EVIL" Americans came from YOUR countries because they SUCKED. And guess what, people are still COMING over here.

The reason we are Violent, Crazy, Nuts, Agresssive, etc...etc.. is becuase the people that immigrate to this Country are RISK TAKERS. You have to be to pack up everything you have and immigrate into a strange world. You have 300 MILLION people who are geneticly wired to be RISK TAKERS and NUTS. Hello, YOUR countries shipped over all the Religious Nuts because you didnt want them. Too bad! Now you have to deal with them.

You want to embargo the US? With the Majority of your EXPORTS coming here? Go right ahead, ruin YOUR economy.

...we "EVIL" Americans came from YOUR countries because they SUCKED. And guess what, people are still COMING over here.

bingo! give the man a prize.

That is a point that applies to the "west" in general and many single culture countries fail to recognize, to their cost.