Let me pose this hypothetical. Assuming I was born into a certain religion and now thinking of apostacy, and my last consideration is this: If i made the leap would I be punished - and if so what would that punishment be (if any.. think ''Prodigal Son") Or if I stayed I am limited to reach my true potential due to ridiculous laws, commandments, parables, teachings aimed at keeping me 'loyal' by guilt. From a purely cerebral perspective (please no old wives tales) what should my considerations be.....

That will depend on which religion you subscribe to.

:shrug:

Hi Signal, would you be implicitly suggesting then that if I were muslim, God would treat me differently than if I were Mormon? I was born catholic btw.

Leaving a religious sect or abandoning your actual Faith in the creator?. if you turn your back on god then expect him to turn his back on you until you humble yoursef and return to him.

If you die as a non believer and reject god's promise then you shall not be given heaven.

Peace.

Hi Empty, So if he turns his back on me that would mean - I am left to fend for myself? In other words my considerations would be that not believing in a god would at worse leave me to my own devices and if it gets too tough, I can come back in full humility and everything is cool?

Chi, so you're saying it's better to believe in the wrong god than to not believe in any gods?

Does a god like that honor blind worship over honesty? I mean if you truly believe in your god, fine, but wouldn't it be wrong to try and believe in something just to save your own self?

And for that matter, how do you make yourself believe? you either do or don't.

Hi Empty, So if he turns his back on me that would mean - I am left to fend for myself? In other words my considerations would be that not believing in a god would at worse leave me to my own devices and if it gets too tough, I can come back in full humility and everything is cool?


Hi ^^,

Yeah pretty much, your on your own now and he won't ease your mind-state and you will be left wandering as a man with a blind heart looking for answers that you won't find.

Until, you come back and submit yourself to him in prostration, then yes everything is cool he is most merciful.

Peace.

Hi ^^,

Yeah pretty much, your on your own now and he won't ease your mind-state and you will be left wandering as a man with a blind heart looking for answers that you won't find.

Until, you come back and submit yourself to him in prostration, then yes everything is cool he is most merciful.

Peace.

Your god is a domineering dick.

Hi Signal, would you be implicitly suggesting then that if I were muslim, God would treat me differently than if I were Mormon? I was born catholic btw.

You asked -
"From a purely cerebral perspective (please no old wives tales) what should my considerations be..... "
- and the answer to this depends on the religion/philosophy/worldview you subscribe to.

If you don't subscribe to any theistic religion, why should you worry about leaving it?

Your god is a domineering dick.

You might want to check yourself before you convict your intentions and words.

Chi, so you're saying it's better to believe in the wrong god than to not believe in any gods?

Does a god like that honor blind worship over honesty? I mean if you truly believe in your god, fine, but wouldn't it be wrong to try and believe in something just to save your own self?

And for that matter, how do you make yourself believe? you either do or don't.


I don't know what you mean by "God's" Blind worship isn't something I wubscribe too so I don't know.

Just believing in God wont get you to heaven (if your asking that?) Your good deeds and your bad deeds are taken into account.
You don't make yourself believe Faith is a gift and a mercy.

You don't make yourself believe Faith is a gift and a mercy.

Okay, so if you lack faith, it's because it wasn't given to you? Then how can a non-believer be blamed?

And back to my original question, does it matter which god the OP was believing beforehand? you're okay with him going back to his catholic roots, given that you subscribe to islamic faith?

Just believing in God wont get you to heaven (if your asking that?) Your good deeds and your bad deeds are taken into account.

This also depends on the particular religion. Some concentrate on deeds, some on belief, some on both.

Okay, so if you lack faith, it's because it wasn't given to you? Then how can a non-believer be blamed?

And back to my original question, does it matter which god the OP was believing beforehand? you're okay with him going back to his catholic roots, given that you subscribe to islamic faith?


Heh ok I will answer your latter point with my real personal Opinion so I hope you don't ask for proofs on that please, but first¬.

If you lose your faith it's because it was taken away from you, a 'Disbeliever has lost his state of bliss because his faith was removed.

Now, I am not ok with him going back to his catholic roots if those roots included false beliefs or any idol worship or polythesitic trinity.

Peace.

This also depends on the particular religion. Some concentrate on deeds, some on belief, some on both.

I am not aware of a religion that says you can do whatever you like regardless of how evil and still leap into heavenly rewards upon faith in the afterlife.
Could you give me an example of these types of religions.?.
Peace.

If you lose your faith it's because it was taken away from you, a 'Disbeliever has ost his state of bliss because his faith was removed.

Or never had it.

Let me pose this hypothetical. Assuming I was born into a certain religion and now thinking of apostacy, and my last consideration is this: If i made the leap would I be punished - and if so what would that punishment be (if any.. think ''Prodigal Son") Or if I stayed I am limited to reach my true potential due to ridiculous laws, commandments, parables, teachings aimed at keeping me 'loyal' by guilt. From a purely cerebral perspective (please no old wives tales) what should my considerations be.....First... do you believe in God or not?
If yes, then whichever religion or God you follow should probably give you guidance. But I'm assuming that you no longer hold belief in God...

So, the issue then is: if it turns out you are right, then the worst that can happen is... nothing.

If it turns out you are wrong, and that God does exist, then it rather depends on how this God thinks of and treats people who didn't believe in him. And the question then is how you could find out, given that this God presumably hasn't given enough evidence to convince you that He exists, let alone tell you how he will treat you should you not believe in him.

Pascal's Wager would have you believe in God purely on the gamble that if you do and you're wrong then you lose very little, but if you're right then your reward is eternal life in heaven etc.
But then the question is whether a God would reward someone for believing purely to hedge bets.


My own advice, for what it is worth, is that one should not come to belief or non-belief on what you can potentially gain or lose, but on whether you do truly believe or not.
I do not have a belief in God, and no matter what rewards I am offered or what the risk of non-belief is, I could not force myself to believe... I could at best offer lip-service.
If I am wrong, and God does exist, I guess I can only hope he judges me on aspects other than belief. ;)

Or never had it.

The age you lose your natural faith in your immortal soul you can become Atheistic in mind-state.

First... do you believe in God or not?
If yes, then whichever religion or God you follow should probably give you guidance. But I'm assuming that you no longer hold belief in God...

So, the issue then is: if it turns out you are right, then the worst that can happen is... nothing.

If it turns out you are wrong, and that God does exist, then it rather depends on how this God thinks of and treats people who didn't believe in him. And the question then is how you could find out, given that this God presumably hasn't given enough evidence to convince you that He exists, let alone tell you how he will treat you should you not believe in him.

Pascal's Wager would have you believe in God purely on the gamble that if you do and you're wrong then you lose very little, but if you're right then your reward is eternal life in heaven etc.
But then the question is whether a God would reward someone for believing purely to hedge bets.


My own advice, for what it is worth, is that one should not come to belief or non-belief on what you can potentially gain or lose, but on whether you do truly believe or not.
I do not have a belief in God, and no matter what rewards I am offered or what the risk of non-belief is, I could not force myself to believe... I could at best offer lip-service.
If I am wrong, and God does exist, I guess I can only hope he judges me on aspects other than belief. ;)



Atheist Indoctrination 101, with priest Sarkus.

You might want to check yourself before you convict your intentions and words.

Okay, I checked myself. And I'm still of the conviction that the god you believe in is petty and vengeful, and completely unworthy of worship. Thankfully, said deity is only the product of the fevered imaginations of humans.

Atheist Indoctrination 101, with priest Sarkus.If you have issue with what I wrote, it behooves you to state it rather than come up with some pathetic quip.

If you have issue with what I wrote, it behooves you to state it rather than come up with some pathetic quip.

He's just running out his time until his next ban. A religious martyrdom for his SciForums persona.

The age you lose your natural faith in your immortal soul you can become Atheistic in mind-state.

Belief in one's soul and theism don't have to coincide.

And, one can have belief in one's self without thinking that it is immortal.

Assuming that an infant has a default immortal sense of being is convenient, but not demonstrated.

Belief in one's soul and theism don't have to coincide.

And, one can have belief in one's self without thinking that it is immortal.

Assuming that an infant has a default immortal sense of being is convenient, but not demonstrated.


Your saying then All babies know they are going to die?. Go to the "your own death" thread and debate with me there about this, can you not see a connection between the age you first thought about your own mortaity and having your faith in an immortal self subconsciously.


What do you mean by Belief in ones self without thinking it is immortal, you refer to self awareness of your own existence?. that is not the topic.

He's just running out his time until his next ban. A religious martyrdom for his SciForums persona.

Interesting analysis.

First... do you believe in God or not?
If yes, then whichever religion or God you follow should probably give you guidance. But I'm assuming that you no longer hold belief in God...

So, the issue then is: if it turns out you are right, then the worst that can happen is... nothing.

If it turns out you are wrong, and that God does exist, then it rather depends on how this God thinks of and treats people who didn't believe in him. And the question then is how you could find out, given that this God presumably hasn't given enough evidence to convince you that He exists, let alone tell you how he will treat you should you not believe in him.

Pascal's Wager would have you believe in God purely on the gamble that if you do and you're wrong then you lose very little, but if you're right then your reward is eternal life in heaven etc.
But then the question is whether a God would reward someone for believing purely to hedge bets.


My own advice, for what it is worth, is that one should not come to belief or non-belief on what you can potentially gain or lose, but on whether you do truly believe or not.
I do not have a belief in God, and no matter what rewards I am offered or what the risk of non-belief is, I could not force myself to believe... I could at best offer lip-service.
If I am wrong, and God does exist, I guess I can only hope he judges me on aspects other than belief. ;)

Well put and phrased parallel to my line of thinking as well.

Between the existence of god and the belief in any given religion are a long series of questions and answers. For example, if a god does exist, did he intentionally create us... if Yes, then the next questions is why - an answer which he/she/it should equip us with. If No, then there should be no question of worship, since we are an "accident' with equal probablity of being here versus not. and the questions go on and on. And if you follow that all the way down to the existence of religion, it starts to seem highly improbable that there is a God who intentionally created us and wants us to worship him while we kill each other defending each's religion.... lex parsimoniae - the concept of religion and by extension god, is convoluted.

Well put and phrased parallel to my line of thinking as well.

Between the existence of god and the belief in any given religion are a long series of questions and answers. For example, if a god does exist, did he intentionally create us... if Yes, then the next questions is why - an answer which he/she/it should equip us with. If No, then there should be no question of worship, since we are an "accident' with equal probablity of being here versus not. and the questions go on and on. And if you follow that all the way down to the existence of religion, it starts to seem highly improbable that there is a God who intentionally created us and wants us to worship him while we kill each other defending each's religion.... lex parsimoniae - the concept of religion and by extension god, is convoluted.

Yes, he does, he created us intentionally, he created us for a purpose and as a test, worship is the purpose but you have a choice to go against that.

When asking questions on religion it's best to seek answers from people of faith. Like any other field of knowledge it's best to go to the right people, don't ask a plumber to do your electrics, dont ask a biology teacher about physics, dont ask an atheist about god.


Peace/

Chi's wrong. We were created by Quetzalcoatl, for reasons known only to him.


Quetzalcoatl was also seen as a creation god (Berdan 2005). According to one version of the Aztec creation story, Quetzalcoatl was one of the four sons born to the first gods, Ometecutli and Omecihuatl. Along with his brother, Huitzilopitchli, Quetzalcoatl was given the task creating all life. Later, after time was divided into four different ages, it was decided that each of these ages would have different gods to rule over them. The second age was given the Quetzalcoatl. Even though he was the god of the second age, Quetzalcoatl had a significant impact on the fifth age, the age that we supposedly live in now. Along with another one of his brothers, Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl created the earth and heavens for the fifth age. He also created humanity and then gave them maize for food.
http://www.plu.edu/~staffokm/world-myth/home.html

When asking questions on religion it's best to seek answers from people of faith. Like any other field of knowledge it's best to go to the right people, don't ask a plumber to do your electrics, dont ask a biology teacher about physics, dont ask an atheist about god.

Many atheists know more about different religions than a theist does, since logically if you think you believe in the True religion, why would you study any others? So that reasoning isn't sound.

Furthermore, if you have to restrict yourself to a theist expert for religious questions, which religion? Obviously a certain believer will tell you what he deems true based on his religion, but that may not necessarily apply to all religions.

You are free to beieve that Repoman , go ahead.

Yes, he does, he created us intentionally, he created us for a purpose and as a test, worship is the purpose but you have a choice to go against that.

When asking questions on religion it's best to seek answers from people of faith. Like any other field of knowledge it's best to go to the right people, don't ask a plumber to do your electrics, dont ask a biology teacher about physics, dont ask an atheist about god.


Peace/

Peace EFOC,

Thank you for your responses. I have to say that you do make a good point. However, the topic is a little more complex and soliciting thoughts from those of faith and those of reason will tend toward a more holistic picture. Don't you think? And here is another problem I have and hope you can clarify, what in you tells you (the voice of faith so to speak) that god exists - now mind you I am not asking you for empirical evidence (thats another thread) I am asking you how do you know (with all your heart) god exists?

:)

Many atheists know more about different religions than a theist does, since logically if you think you believe in the True religion, why would you study any others? So that reasoning isn't sound.

Furthermore, if you have to restrict yourself to a theist expert for religious questions, which religion? Obviously a certain believer will tell you what he deems true based on his religion, but that may not necessarily apply to all religions.

Asking about various religions is not asking about God. Am I not allowed to give non new age Christian gospel answers here?

Nobody has to restrict themselves, they have freedom of choice, they can ask atheists about God if they so wish. If you don't agree with my personal opinions or suggestions I gave to him then that is fine.

I'm just disagreeing with your opinion that an atheist's opinion isn't as valid. Your opinion is fine, just don't expect it to be assumed correct by everyone.

And asking about religions is about weighing the different ideas of god in different societies.

When asking questions on religion it's best to seek answers from people of faith. Like any other field of knowledge it's best to go to the right people, don't ask a plumber to do your electrics, dont ask a biology teacher about physics, dont ask an atheist about god.

Except that the question was being asked at random about a subject that is full of idiotic half-truths, blatant fiction and more hate than any other subject in human history.

We aren't being asked something "technical" that requires an expert to fix. We're talking about beliefs that only the most foolish buy in to.

~String

Peace EFOC,

Thank you for your responses. I have to say that you do make a good point. However, the topic is a little more complex and soliciting thoughts from those of faith and those of reason will tend toward a more holistic picture. Don't you think? And here is another problem I have and hope you can clarify, what in you tells you (the voice of faith so to speak) that god exists - now mind you I am not asking you for empirical evidence (thats another thread) I am asking you how do you know (with all your heart) god exists?

:)

You are most welcome,

You wont get past the point of "Prove god exist's" when debating an atheist about God and his ways, A theist will engage in deeper meanings with you, All the atheist is pushing is "I don't believe in god, period so all these scriptures and things mean bunk".

I have been Atheist/Agnostic most of my life I ony just recently became a so called "Theist" I didn't have faith until it was forced upon me. I started a thread called "Forced Faith forced Atheism-The test." to prove this point nobody has yet claimed they have been able to change their mind about it voluntarily.

There are ways to help unock new faith and get your faith back but you need to have certain seals unlocked first and be rewarded with faith a-new.


Peace be unto you.

I'm just disagreeing with your opinion that an atheist's opinion isn't as valid. Your opinion is fine, just don't expect it to be assumed correct by everyone.

And asking about religions is about weighing the different ideas of god in different societies.


I didn't say it's totally Invalid, just might not be the best place to seek answers to certain things.

Except that the question was being asked at random about a subject that is full of idiotic half-truths, blatant fiction and more hate than any other subject in human history.

We aren't being asked something "technical" that requires an expert to fix. We're talking about beliefs that only the most foolish buy in to.

~String


I see, most interesting.

All the atheist is pushing is "I don't believe in god, period so all these scriptures and things mean bunk".

Actually I don't push non-belief, but rather ask why one would believe this or that.

Don't ever get solid answers, so therefore I'm still not convinced.


nobody has yet claimed they have been able to change their mind about it voluntarily.

Exactly. You just have different standards than me in belief.

Actually I don't push non-belief, but rather ask why one would believe this or that.

Don't ever get solid answers, so therefore I'm still not convinced.



Exactly. You just have different standards than me in belief.

You wan't to know why I believe in God?, I have explained many times that I was forced.
What are my standards could you explain them.

I don't know what they are, but they're obviously different, since you feel you have to believe, and I don't.

I don't know what they are, but they're obviously different, since you feel you have to believe, and I don't.


Have to believe for what? what are you refering too.

to prove this point nobody has yet claimed they have been able to change their mind about it voluntarily.

So, people should give up logic, science and reason and "choose" Islam or Christianity? And, let's face it, all you're really doing is quietly preaching Islam. It's a basic requirement for being in the two conversion-oriented Abrahamic faiths. Which is even more disgusting than your typical passive theist.

You're trying to make people believe that there's some logic or higher purpose to what you do, but it's all about trapping people in the most vile of all faiths (and it takes a lot to get more vile than Christianity). It's not about salvation, it's about desperately finding a god figure that mimics your inner persona and then attempting to remake your environment in that image. It's a substitute for a real life purpose, which obviously is lacking in those who run around preaching about their god.

It's why evangelicals, prosthelyzers are so pathetic. All the singing and dancing about good will, salvation and peace is just a sugar coating on an otherwise bitter and evil pill.

~String

So, people should give up logic, science and reason and "choose" Islam or Christianity? And, let's face it, all you're really doing is quietly preaching Islam. It's a basic requirement for being in the two conversion-oriented Abrahamic faiths. Which is even more disgusting than your typical passive theist.

You're trying to make people believe that there's some logic or higher purpose to what you do, but it's all about trapping people in the most vile of all faiths (and it takes a lot to get more vile than Christianity). It's not about salvation, it's about desperately finding a god figure that mimics your inner persona and then attempting to remake your environment in that image. It's a substitute for a real life purpose, which obviously is lacking in those who run around preaching about their god.

It's why evangelicals, prosthelyzers are so pathetic. All the singing and dancing about good will, salvation and peace is just a sugar coating on an otherwise bitter and evil pill.

~String



Please show me where I have preached Islam in this thread.

Please show me where I have preached Islam in this thread.

First: I didn't say this thread specifically. I'm talking about you, in general, and your toxic presence on this forum.

Second: The very fact that you run roughshod around the forum talking about how great religion is, when even a monkey can see the disastrous effects its had on humanity for the past--oh--ten millennia, is pretty sad.

Even now, you're attempting to paint a belief in god as if it were a wonderful thing that people should buy into.

It's a stepping stone thing and you're attempting to make people think that the concept of a super-destructo-god is somehow good over the concept of scientific understanding, reason and intelligence; none of which is even remotely compatible with theism.

~String

First: I didn't say this thread specifically. I'm talking about you, in general, and your toxic presence on this forum.

Second: The very fact that you run roughshod around the forum talking about how great religion is, when even a monkey can see the disastrous effects its had on humanity for the past--oh--ten millennia, is pretty sad.

Even now, you're attempting to paint a belief in god as if it were a wonderful thing that people should buy into.

It's a stepping stone thing and you're attempting to make people think that the concept of a super-destructo-god is somehow good over the concept of scientific understanding, reason and intelligence; none of which is even remotely compatible with theism.

~String



Why are you talking about off topic discussions then in this thread regarding Islam. Also would you please Cite and source the places that I am preaching Islam?

We're discussing god, I'm offering my POV on how pathetic it is to try to dupe people into believing in god; ergo, it's completely on topic.

You're a muslim. You're defending the concept of god. It's unlikely that it's any, abstract god or goddess. It's allah.

Or, are you as a muslim preaching that any god is as good as your god? Take it or leave it? No biggie?

IIRC, one of the five main pillars of your religion require that you tell the whole world about the oneness and glory of your god.

~String

We're discussing god, I'm offering my POV on how pathetic it is to try to dupe people into believing in god; ergo, it's completely on topic.

You're a muslim. You're defending the concept of god. It's unlikely that it's any, abstract god or goddess. It's allah.

Or, are you as a muslim preaching that any god is as good as your god? Take it or leave it? No biggie?

IIRC, one of the five main pillars of your religion require that you tell the whole world about the oneness and glory of your god.

~String

So your personal opinion is not preaching but mine is?. if im preaching then ban me.

So your personal opinion is not preaching but mine is?.

Teaching science and fact is teaching science and fact. It can be proven and demonstrated empirically.

The teaching of reason and science is incomparable to teaching religious nonsense. It would be like trying to compare mathematics to spreading the good word of the Tooth Fairy or Santa Clause.

Evolution, Science, etc. aren't subject to "opinion". They are facts regardless of what you or I think. Religion is for those who are deeply insecure and cannot cope with reality. Spreading it isn't really science so much as brain washing.


if im preaching then ban me.

I'm working on it. Believe me.

But, as things like this go, you can preach all you want in a religion forum. I'll just make sure that I'm here as much as possible to point out your lies, delusions and other sundry nefarious intentions.

~String

Teaching science and fact is teaching science and fact. It can be proven and demonstrated empirically.

The teaching of reason and science is incomparable to teaching religious nonsense. It would be like trying to compare mathematics to spreading the good word of the Tooth Fairy or Santa Clause.

Evolution, Science, etc. aren't subject to "opinion". They are facts regardless of what you or I think. Religion is for those who are deeply insecure and cannot cope with reality. Spreading it isn't really science so much as brain washing.




I'm working on it. Believe me.

But, as things like this go, you can preach all you want in a religion forum. I'll just make sure that I'm here as much as possible to point out your lies, delusions and other sundry nefarious intentions.

~String



I see, how insightful.

I see, how insightful.

It actually is insightful, unlike--say--religious nonsense you run around preaching. Name something GOOD that has happened in the past 2k years because of the Abrahamic faiths, besides--you know--the undoing some other catastrophe that they in an earlier day created.

~String

It actually is insightful, unlike--say--religious nonsense you run around preaching. Name something GOOD that has happened in the past 2k years because of the Abrahamic faiths, besides--you know--the undoing some other catastrophe that they in an earlier day created.

~String

You seem emotional.

I am not aware of a religion that says you can do whatever you like regardless of how evil and still leap into heavenly rewards upon faith in the afterlife.
Could you give me an example of these types of religions.?.
Peace.Provided you're 'born again' and you repent then many denominations of Christianity believe you'll go to heaven regardless of your actions, be you a good person or a child raping murderer.

Any deity who rewards belief over deeds doesn't deserve any kind of praise, never mind worship.


You might want to check yourself before you convict your intentions and words.Any deity who doles out infinite punishment for finite 'crime', where 'crime' is a lack of belief in something with insufficient evidence, is a dick. Even if I were to know such a being existed such a being wouldn't deserve worship.


Yes, he does, he created us intentionally, he created us for a purpose and as a test, worship is the purpose but you have a choice to go against that.Citation needed.


When asking questions on religion it's best to seek answers from people of faith.Faith is not a path to truth though. Faith is what people have when they don't have reason. Faith is the excuse given when there's no evidence to justify a position. If you care whether or not your beliefs are true then 'faith' is the last place you should go to.

Don't get me wrong, asking people about their beliefs is important but by no means is it 'the best'.


Like any other field of knowledge it's best to go to the right people, don't ask a plumber to do your electrics, dont ask a biology teacher about physics, dont ask an atheist about god.In science and (to use your example) plumbing there's an external truth which can be demonstrated by experiment, by evidence. People of faith have only faith, not evidence.

Besides, in a recent survey in the US it was found the three groups who were most knowledgeable about religion in general are Jews, Mormons and atheists.


Nobody has to restrict themselves, they have freedom of choiceBut if they get it wrong its eternal punishment for them.


You wont get past the point of "Prove god exist's" when debating an atheist about God and his ways, A theist will engage in deeper meanings with you, All the atheist is pushing is "I don't believe in god, period so all these scriptures and things mean bunk".Isn't the question of God's existence the central issue? You made a similar comment in another thread, asking Michael if he just copies and pastes the same things. Now here you've once again given a comment which seems to be saying "This issue keeps being brought up hence I'm justified in ignoring it". If you can't demonstrate a god, never mind your god, exists then things like what you think happens to non-believers become somewhat moot.

From the point of view of an outside observer there's no reason to believe your scriptures over someone elses, hence why you often hear "so all these scriptures and things mean bunk". Resorting to your scriptures to justify your belief is circular reasoning.

If your grasp of the place of logic and reason in forming ones beliefs is such then perhaps that explains your beliefs....

You seem emotional.

You seem ignorant.

I work for a living. There isn't much on this website that makes me anything more than amused.

If there is something that moves, slightly, in that direction, it's reading the posts of psuedo-intellects like yourself, sitting here trying to sell their brand of evil to others in friendly packaging.

You're a muslim. You're attempting to portray yourself as part of some wonderful religion that respects humanity, peace, happiness and individuality. And, regardless of what you say it is--or what it says it is--in practice throughout history it has been none of those things. I could care less what you think Allah says, in the end, people die because of religion and Islam is the new Christianity when it comes to death and destruction.

Gays, women who won't "submit" to men, peace activists, atheists, the Baha'i, "witches", apostates, Jews. Name them and I can provide you with a list of people who were and are currently under the knife of a religion that says one thing but does quite another.

There's a word for that: Hypocrisy.

Spare us the "peace" song and dance. There's nothing peaceful about the religion you espouse.

~String

Provided you're 'born again' and you repent then many denominations of Christianity believe you'll go to heaven regardless of your actions, be you a good person or a child raping murderer.

Any deity who rewards belief over deeds doesn't deserve any kind of praise, never mind worship.

Any deity who doles out infinite punishment for finite 'crime', where 'crime' is a lack of belief in something with insufficient evidence, is a dick. Even if I were to know such a being existed such a being wouldn't deserve worship.

Citation needed.

Faith is not a path to truth though. Faith is what people have when they don't have reason. Faith is the excuse given when there's no evidence to justify a position. If you care whether or not your beliefs are true then 'faith' is the last place you should go to.

Don't get me wrong, asking people about their beliefs is important but by no means is it 'the best'.

In science and (to use your example) plumbing there's an external truth which can be demonstrated by experiment, by evidence. People of faith have only faith, not evidence.

Besides, in a recent survey in the US it was found the three groups who were most knowledgeable about religion in general are Jews, Mormons and atheists.

But if they get it wrong its eternal punishment for them.

Isn't the question of God's existence the central issue? You made a similar comment in another thread, asking Michael if he just copies and pastes the same things. Now here you've once again given a comment which seems to be saying "This issue keeps being brought up hence I'm justified in ignoring it". If you can't demonstrate a god, never mind your god, exists then things like what you think happens to non-believers become somewhat moot.

From the point of view of an outside observer there's no reason to believe your scriptures over someone elses, hence why you often hear "so all these scriptures and things mean bunk". Resorting to your scriptures to justify your belief is circular reasoning.

If your grasp of the place of logic and reason in forming ones beliefs is such then perhaps that explains your beliefs....


Those christians believe they wil be rewarded with heaven even if they ive a ife of sin and evil?, I guess they are free to believe this I wouldn't support it.

Citations required for what? do you wan't scripture to be presented to back up what I say?, You would take scripture as a form of support or evidence?.

You seem ignorant.

I work for a living. There isn't much on this website that makes me anything more than amused.

If there is something that moves, slightly, in that direction, it's reading the posts of psuedo-intellects like yourself, sitting here trying to sell their brand of evil to others in friendly packaging.

You're a muslim. You're attempting to portray yourself as part of some wonderful religion that respects humanity, peace, happiness and individuality. And, regardless of what you say it is--or what it says it is--in practice throughout history it has been none of those things. I could care less what you think Allah says, in the end, people die because of religion and Islam is the new Christianity when it comes to death and destruction.

Gays, women who won't "submit" to men, peace activists, atheists, the Baha'i, "witches", apostates, Jews. Name them and I can provide you with a list of people who were and are currently under the knife of a religion that says one thing but does quite another.

There's a word for that: Hypocrisy.

Spare us the "peace" song and dance. There's nothing peaceful about the religion you espouse.

~String



Interesting.

When did I say peace to you?

Interesting.

When did I say peace to you?

Is that the game we're playing? Quote the exact phrase?

Nope. You've danced around here talking about how wonderful god is; when addressing specifics about Islam, you've acted like it is an honorable and peaceful religion, a worthy thing of study and belief.

You want quotes? I'll provide you with a link to your posts.

~String

Is that the game we're playing? Quote the exact phrase?

Nope. You've danced around here talking about how wonderful god is; when addressing specifics about Islam, you've acted like it is an honorable and peaceful religion, a worthy thing of study and belief.

You want quotes? I'll provide you with a link to your posts.

~String


Be my guest.

http://www.sciforums.com/member.php?u=20100

Click on the statistics tab.

Have at it.

~String

http://www.sciforums.com/member.php?u=20100

Click on the statistics tab.

Have at it.

~String

Ok, now what?

Citations required for what?You said

"Yes, he does, he created us intentionally, he created us for a purpose and as a test, worship is the purpose but you have a choice to go against that."

Those are assertions about 'him'. Unless you can demonstrate 'he' exists and then demonstrate his views are as stated you should phrase yourself as "I believe he created us....".


do you wan't scripture to be presented to back up what I say?, You would take scripture as a form of support or evidence?.Of course not, I actually care whether or not what I believe is true and, as I said, citing scripture to justify assertions from scripture is circular nonsense. My entire point was that you complain how us atheists say "I don't accept that scripture" but that's all you ever present, scripture to back up scripture. It's all any religion ever presents. Hence it is either acceptable as evidence from all of them (which is impossible as they are often mutually exclusive) or from none of them.

Perhaps if you could provide something else, something not based on circular assertions, you'd not have atheists keep bugging you about it.

You said

"Yes, he does, he created us intentionally, he created us for a purpose and as a test, worship is the purpose but you have a choice to go against that."

Those are assertions about 'him'. Unless you can demonstrate 'he' exists and then demonstrate his views are as stated you should phrase yourself as "I believe he created us....".

Of course not, I actually care whether or not what I believe is true and, as I said, citing scripture to justify assertions from scripture is circular nonsense. My entire point was that you complain how us atheists say "I don't accept that scripture" but that's all you ever present, scripture to back up scripture. It's all any religion ever presents. Hence it is either acceptable as evidence from all of them (which is impossible as they are often mutually exclusive) or from none of them.

Perhaps if you could provide something else, something not based on circular assertions, you'd not have atheists keep bugging you about it.


I wasn't aware of any complaining in this thread on my part.

I stated it is my personal opinion I never claimed any factual evidence here.

I stated it is my personal opinion I never claimed any factual evidence here.I didn't say evidence, I said you asserted something as fact.

'New Atheist' said


For example, if a god does exist, did he intentionally create us.....

to which you replied


Yes, he does, he created us intentionally, he created us for a purpose and as a test, worship is the purpose but you have a choice to go against that.
I am aware its your opinion/belief but you state it as if it were fact. Do you have evidence for your beliefs or are they just baseless? Is there anything outside of scripture?


I wasn't aware of any complaining in this thread on my part.
You said the following about atheists :

"You wont get past the point of "Prove god exist's" when debating an atheist about God and his ways, A theist will engage in deeper meanings with you, All the atheist is pushing is "I don't believe in god, period so all these scriptures and things mean bunk"."

This is complaining about the manner in which atheists supposedly engage you (and you seem to imply believers in general), that we keep bringing up the issue of proving god's existence. Given this is the central defining issue of 'theist/atheist', the belief or lack of belief in a god or gods, its daft to complain such an issue is often raised in discussion with atheists. It's defines the very labels you're using!

I didn't say evidence, I said you asserted something as fact.

'New Atheist' said



to which you replied

I am aware its your opinion/belief but you state it as if it were fact. Do you have evidence for your beliefs or are they just baseless? Is there anything outside of scripture?

You said the following about atheists :

"You wont get past the point of "Prove god exist's" when debating an atheist about God and his ways, A theist will engage in deeper meanings with you, All the atheist is pushing is "I don't believe in god, period so all these scriptures and things mean bunk"."

This is complaining about the manner in which atheists supposedly engage you (and you seem to imply believers in general), that we keep bringing up the issue of proving god's existence. Given this is the central defining issue of 'theist/atheist', the belief or lack of belief in a god or gods, its daft to complain such an issue is often raised in discussion with atheists. It's defines the very labels you're using!


If you call that complaining then ok then.

I was giving personal opinion I never said it was fact with evidence and proofs.

Let me pose this hypothetical. Assuming I was born into a certain religion and now thinking of apostacy, and my last consideration is this: If i made the leap would I be punished - and if so what would that punishment be (if any.. think ''Prodigal Son") Or if I stayed I am limited to reach my true potential due to ridiculous laws, commandments, parables, teachings aimed at keeping me 'loyal' by guilt. From a purely cerebral perspective (please no old wives tales) what should my considerations be.....

If you value truth more than psychogical satiation than atheism is the way to go. If you value psychological satiation more than truth then theism is the way to go.

If you value truth more than psychogical satiation than atheism is the way to go. If you value psychological satiation more than truth then theism is the way to go.


You are stating that one can willingly change belief from theist to atheist or atheist to theist upon a whim?.

If so insert your case in my thread "Forced Atheist, Forced Theism- The test.

Whats the worst that can happen if I do not believe in god?
Since I'm not religious, I avoid to giving my opinion.
But I am a curious and I would add these questions.
What happens if I do not believe in God, but I meticulous obey to all the rituals required by a religion?
Also the conception of heaven is very bizarre to me.
I know that we humans are very different. What is good for me may be not good for others. So in a unique haven, will find unhappy people. Or for each person, God will create a properly haven?
But in this own heaven will be alone? The others will be "holograms"?
(If my greatest wish is to be a champion, what happens to others who want the same thing? If I want to have sex with beautiful girls, what happens to girls' desire?)

I was giving personal opinion I never said it was fact with evidence and proofs.You don't phrase it as opinion, you don't give any qualifiers, you just state it in the same way someone would state their name or some other basic fact. Besides, threads like this (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=107838) make it clear you don't view it as some kind of "Well I'm aware I'm just guessing and hoping" but rather you firmly take it to be absolutely true.

I can't help but notice you skipped my question about anything other than scripture. Struggling to think of anything? It's a simple enough question.

Since I'm not religious, I avoid to giving my opinion.
But I am a curious and I would add these questions.
What happens if I do not believe in God, but I meticulous obey to all the rituals required by a religion?
Also the conception of heaven is very bizarre to me.
I know that we humans are very different. What is good for me may be not good for others. So in a unique haven, will find unhappy people. Or for each person, God will create a properly haven?
But in this own heaven will be alone? The others will be "holograms"?
(If my greatest wish is to be a champion, what happens to others who want the same thing? If I want to have sex with beautiful girls, what happens to girls' desire?)


Heaven isn't one single place like this earth, there are different heavens for different people. you can request personal things to suit your personal taste.


Personal opinion (For those who need clarification)

You don't phrase it as opinion, you don't give any qualifiers, you just state it in the same way someone would state their name or some other basic fact. Besides, threads like this (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=107838) make it clear you don't view it as some kind of "Well I'm aware I'm just guessing and hoping" but rather you firmly take it to be absolutely true.

I can't help but notice you skipped my question about anything other than scripture. Struggling to think of anything? It's a simple enough question.


I didn't try to hide the fact that I wont be answering your questions, infact I am quite sure I told you directy that im not answering them.

Heaven isn't one single place like this earth, there are different heavens for different people. you can request personal things to suit your personal taste....)

yep, I read about that in The Lovely Bones
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Lovely_Bones_cover.jpg/200px-Lovely_Bones_cover.jpg

yep, I read about that in The Lovely Bones
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/Lovely_Bones_cover.jpg/200px-Lovely_Bones_cover.jpg

I see.

It was good. She got to have dogs. And I was raised that animals (who have no soul) couldn't get to heaven.

It was good. She got to have dogs. And I was raised that animals (who have no soul) couldn't get to heaven.


Who taught you that.

church, the minister, my parents, etc. Are you saying animals who have no sense of their own mortality have souls?

Heaven isn't one single place like this earth, there are different heavens for different people. you can request personal things to suit your personal taste.

It's like a dream induced?
Something like MATRIX?

church, the minister, my parents, etc. Are you saying animals who have no sense of their own mortality have souls?

Im not saying they have souls, but im also not saying they are barred from being in your personal heaven.

No, animals can be in heaven, but not animals from Earth. Your childhood pet won't be there.

It's like a dream induced?
Something like MATRIX?


It's just another dimension and plane of existence/realm, you will have your Senses just like you have now. What is the difference between the matrix and the world you live in currently?

peace.

No, animals can be in heaven, but not animals from Earth. Your childhood pet won't be there.

What makes you think that.

I was raised that god can make as many animals as he wants in heaven. Animals with no soul from Earth won't be there.
Are you expecting a pet to be there?

and what if you want to see a parent in heaven, but they don't want to see you? Or they just aren't there?

I was raised that god can make as many animals as he wants in heaven. Animals with no soul from Earth won't be there.
Are you expecting a pet to be there?

and what if you want to see a parent in heaven, but they don't want to see you? Or they just aren't there?

I am not familiar with this scripture/teaching, would you please quote a verse saying this.

Im expecting whatever I wan't to be there.

so you can have orgies if you want?

so you can have orgies if you want?

You didn't provide me with the christian teaching that supports your claim of being taught this by a pastor.

As I said "Whatever I want" I am not going to discuss sexual intercourse with a female who isn't my my wife/s.

You didn't provide me with the christian teaching that supports your claim of being taught this by a pastor.

As I said "Whatever I want" I am not going to discuss sexual intercourse with a female who isn't my my wife/s.

LOL @ wife/s

I was raised that animals don't have souls. Your soul goes to heaven, so how can an animal go to heaven? :shrug:

LOL @ wife/s

I was raised that animals don't have souls. Your soul goes to heaven, so how can an animal go to heaven? :shrug:


Thing's don't have to have a sentient soul to be in Heaven, The flowing rivers of paradise do not have souls, the trees of the gardens of paradise do not have souls, The fruits of the gardens do not have souls, not everything in al of the different heavens are sentient beings, there are other thing's there just like not everything on earth has a soul.


peace.

What is the difference between the matrix and the world you live in currently?
In the first phase "they" made ​​everyone to be happy and it was a failure.
So please analyze if you can be happy where everything that you want, be done immediately and unconditionally.

In the first phase "they" made ​​everyone to be happy and it was a failure.
So please analyze if you can be happy where everything that you want, be done immediately and unconditionally.

I dont get what your refering to, who is "they" and what was a failure?. Who said everything was done immidiately in an instant?.

Im slightly confused at your points.

You are stating that one can willingly change belief from theist to atheist or atheist to theist upon a whim?.

If so insert your case in my thread "Forced Atheist, Forced Theism- The test.

I am stating that someone can have a moment of self-honesty about their values and choose a path based on those values.

I am stating that someone can have a moment of self-honesty about their values and choose a path based on those values.

So does this include changing your actual belief on a whim?. Can you force yourself to be a theist right now?

So does this include changing your actual belief on a whim?.

If you consider a moment of self-honesty "a whim" then yes; otherwise, no.



Can you force yourself to be a theist right now?

Nope. The reason for this is that I value truth over psychological satiation; however, there was a point in my life where I had that moment of self-honesty and I changed my belief (or more accurately I discarded a previously held belief).

If you consider a moment of self-honesty "a whim" then yes; otherwise, no.



Nope. The reason for this is that I value truth over psychological satiation; however, there was a point in my life where I had that moment of self-honesty and I changed my belief (or more accurately I discarded a previously held belief).

I see.

I was raised that animals don't have souls. Your soul goes to heaven, so how can an animal go to heaven? :shrug:If I had to point to one thing in Abrahamic religion that I absolutely despise it for (rather than just being disgusted with it), it's this attitude that our most noble and loyal companions are excluded from Heaven.

I'm going to meet my ex-wife who lied to me and cheated on me; I'm going to meet the duplicitous "best friend" who alienated her affections and spirited her away; I'm going to meet the asshole who killed my cat deliberately; I'm going to meet my parents who treated me like a puppet on strings; I'm going to meet the boss who blamed me for something he did and fired me so he wouldn't be fired. But my dear little dog, my best friend in the whole world, the guy who always thinks of me first, the one who would defend me with his life if I were attacked, the one who knows me better than I know myself, the one who always knows what I need to feel better... He has no "soul"??? So the one "person" I will really miss when he's gone and would actually look forward to reuniting with in Heaven... he won't be there?

And you moron religionists wonder why we think your fairytales are not simply stupid, not simply bullshit, but actually offensive? That crap is just plain nasty! There is absolutely nothing any of you retards can say to make up for your cruel assertion that my dog is not worthy of your imaginary Heaven--but the most worthless of human beings are!

Will Rogers said it best: "If dogs don't go to heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."

I'll take my dog over your imaginary gods and angels and prophets any day. At least he's real. My faith in him is rewarded every day.

And I, too, would rather go to a Heaven filled with dogs, than one filled with you contemptible Jews, Christians and Muslims.

And you moron religionists wonder why we think your fairytales are not simply stupid,.


Isnt this an insult and attack upon theists?, are you allowed to do that as a Moderator?.

No, animals can be in heaven, but not animals from Earth. Your childhood pet won't be there.I tracked that question down on a Christian website, aimed specifically at parents with precocious children--you know, the kind who can see all the holes in religion and wonder why adults believe in it?

This lady said their dog had just died and the children were consoling themselves with the "fact" that some day they would meet him again in Heaven. She asked the pastor who ran the website what to tell them.

He told her, as you also said, that since non-human animals have no soul, God could in an eyeblink recreate any animal that had lived on earth right down to the memories stored in his neurons. Including dear Fido and Fluffy.

He told the lady to just cut it short and tell the kids that yes they would indeed meet their dog in Heaven, so they can stop crying, go to bed, and be good little children in the morning and go off to school.

The details about how that dog is not truthfully, exactly, the same dog who just died... well that stuff is just too complicated for children to understand, so it's okay to simplify the story.

Religion is all lies, so what's one more anyway? :)

I tracked that question down on a Christian website, aimed specifically at parents with precocious children--you know, the kind who can see all the holes in religion and wonder why adults believe in it?

This lady said their dog had just died and the children were consoling themselves with the "fact" that some day they would meet him again in Heaven. She asked the pastor who ran the website what to tell them.

He told her, as you also said, that since non-human animals have no soul, God could in an eyeblink recreate any animal that had lived on earth right down to the memories stored in his neurons. Including dear Fido and Fluffy.

He told the lady to just cut it short and tell the kids that yes they would indeed meet their dog in Heaven, so they can stop crying, go to bed, and be good little children in the morning and go off to school.

The details about how that dog is not truthfully, exactly, the same dog who just died... well that stuff is just too complicated for children to understand, so it's okay to simplify the story.

Religion is all lies, so what's one more anyway? :)

Of course god could do that. He's omnipotent! But, could he make a burrito so big that even he couldn't eat it?

Be smitten by God himself- king of all stars- and spaceship wonder Quantum Quack of course.

Ideally the impossible would be, "you will go to hell." That would be hard to find an adequate logical arguement of, and it would probably span many pages.

I suggest that if a person believes that they don't believe in God, and they could have the worst punishment, you are kinda forcing them to admit the obvious. Although that is perfectly obvious, going to hell could have severe problems (logically which are):

You are going to have to face the ideal that hell is real, and that people do go there who are bad.

You are going to have to face the idea that if you go to hell its bad for you if you dont go there.

You are going to have to understand that if you go to hell you will burn for an eternity or wait for God to save you.

You are goign to have to realize that it's your own duty to conquer hell and to strive to overcome and resolve towards a path which is decidedly christian aganist the ideology of actually going to hell.

You're going to have to forfit any chances of doing any of these things as a pure atheist (and many if no all believe systems are absolute (singular, justified) and there are only a few stances to choose.


With all of these things being stated, I will stop there because I've said well enough and I belive I've made myself sufficiently clear.

in respect to the guys response on fraggle rocker, I believe animals are considered to have souls, and that ideal animals go to heaven.

It could be said "animals dont' go to heaven."

There was a movie once on this particular: All Dogs Go To Heaven

It was a total hit.


It's halarious because people believe generally that non animal life form have no soul- that is to say- that there could perhaps be a history of animal life - animal life that is actual and decending having particular soul characistics (moses' dog) and although I would also believe this doesn't make sufficient the t opic, it's a logical assersion.

Childhood pets do go to heaven.

I have a childhood pet that wont ever cease being believed as belonging in heaven. It's our familys dog that we have right now. It's real cute, and actually "real" (its an expensive dog).

The story about what pets belong where and where they belong is probably related to another arguement about evolution. This is just a suggestion but it would clarify all "I am going to hell what do I do!?" sort of topics.

I dont get what your refering to, who is "they" and what was a failure?.
They, the robots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHiX0FZcjkA

Who said everything was done immidiately in an instant?.

Not every desire is fulfilled in heaven?

My own advice, for what it is worth, is that one should not come to belief or non-belief on what you can potentially gain or lose, but on whether you do truly believe or not.

I agree. In some religions, there are even warnings that if one believes and performs religious practices for the sake of promised gains, then this is a lesser kind of religiousness or even abuse.

Agent smith is wrong- dead wrong. He's probably the most evil representation of anything that really exists.... You would be wrong to say that he has any direct representation towards God.

I would bet your middle nipple that agent smith is right.

Between the existence of god and the belief in any given religion are a long series of questions and answers. For example, if a god does exist, did he intentionally create us... if Yes, then the next questions is why - an answer which he/she/it should equip us with. If No, then there should be no question of worship, since we are an "accident' with equal probablity of being here versus not. and the questions go on and on. And if you follow that all the way down to the existence of religion, it starts to seem highly improbable that there is a God who intentionally created us and wants us to worship him while we kill each other defending each's religion.... lex parsimoniae - the concept of religion and by extension god, is convoluted.

What exactly do you want, in relation to the topic in your OP?

Is there any unease about having left the faith? Any sense that the leaving is not justified enough?


I suggest to read this book - Healing spiritual abuse and religious addiction (http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Spiritual-Abuse-Religious-Addiction/dp/0809134888/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1304324872&sr=8-1).
This one is written from a Catholic perspective (since this is your background too), I can suggest a few from a Protestant perspective if you'd like.

I am not suggesting this to "bring you back to the faith," but just to understand better what sometimes (often even) goes on in religious communities when people are being pushed into believing and doing things, how much is taken for granted.
I think understanding these things can ease the doubts and pains that one might have about one's (past) faith.

There are no robots.... Every desire is fuffiled in heaven.

And I, too, would rather go to a Heaven filled with dogs, than one filled with you contemptible Jews, Christians and Muslims.

I feel with you. :)


Let's just note though that not all religions are like the Abrahamic ones.

Also the conception of heaven is very bizarre to me.
I know that we humans are very different. What is good for me may be not good for others. So in a unique haven, will find unhappy people. Or for each person, God will create a properly haven?
But in this own heaven will be alone? The others will be "holograms"?
(If my greatest wish is to be a champion, what happens to others who want the same thing? If I want to have sex with beautiful girls, what happens to girls' desire?)

Yes, these are some of the cunundrums one runs into if one sets out to believe in God for selfish reasons. :o

When asking questions on religion it's best to seek answers from people of faith. Why, when there coming from a basis of the subjective imagination, and bias.
Like any other field of knowledge it's best to go to the right people, don't ask a plumber to do your electrics, Not so, a bad analogy, plumbers don't come from a basis of subjective plumbing, but they are biased toward there own objective skill set, plus they know electrics need the right objective skill set. There is a huge difference between a biased subjective basis, and a non biased objective basis, What skill set has the religious person with his automatic bias and his subjective imagination, would you go to a christian for advice on allah (PissBeUponHim).
Like any other field of knowledge it's best to go to the right people, don't ask a plumber to do your electrics, dont ask a biology teacher about physics, Your making the mistake of comparing the subjective with objective trained skill set.
dont ask an atheist about god.As the atheist is coming from a solid logical and objective basis and has no bias toward any particular religion, he is a much better authority on religions per se, than any religious person who is based in is own subjective imagination and biased to his own version of said religion.

They, the robots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHiX0FZcjkA

Not every desire is fulfilled in heaven?

When does having desires fulfilled imply they are all given in 1 automatic instant?, this isn't what scriptures say it's something you have invisioned and put forth from your imited understanding of the scrolls and books.

When does having desires fulfilled imply they are all given in 1 automatic instant?, this isn't what scriptures say it's something you have invisioned and put forth from your imited understanding of the scrolls and books.
Maybe you're right. Can you give a very short description of heaven?

Maybe you're right. Can you give a very short description of heaven?

Which heaven?

Which heaven?
There are more? :eek: The one that you think you know best.

There are more? :eek: The one that you think you know best.

Random example.

The seventh heaven would be the largest realm with highest population, the lowest rank of people in heaven will have more than 10 times the Earth, they will be allowed to visit God once a week to ask for any thing they desire.

Hey Signal, Thank you that is helpful.

While I am here let me just say that I am not having any doubts about not believing. How could I, one either believes or does not. Anything else is academic. However, what I am trying to source for is if there is something beyond my reasoning ability which has eluded my process of thinking. Nothing thus far has led me to believe so.

Here is a recurring thought that I have: the evidence - demonstrable evidence - is that the bible which every believer refers to, is written by man... A Roman. It seems that with the empire in shambles he used the bible to spread the greatest empire - the Roman Catholic empire. So its pretty certain that the religion is false and anyone claiming that the only way to God (if there is souch a thing) is thru him deserves to be crucified. However, the bible doesn't glorify the existence of god it glorified the worship of a Jerusalem man. Does it not? Look at the mass, does it worship god or a man? So lets take one thing as fact - the catholic faith is ... well off the mark. Now if that is so, then the religion that follows that and believes in the return of Christ must also be false. So thats 2 religions out of the park.

The old testament is full of horror making the original Abrahamic religion scarry at the least - so thats the third religion thats gone! Then there are the other multi-theistic deities and other asian religions which started as philosophies.... Anyway, with extreme respect to all of them, I don't buy one iota of any of it.

The universe as we live in it and what little we are exposed to and enjoy is so much more beautiful than whatever description of heaven any of these books have to offer - including the 70 virgins theory - so I am an atheist because I want to live my life here and now not sitting on my patutie waiting to live life when i am worm food. I am an atheist because mere logic I poses at this point allows me to deduce that a god doesn't exist and that i am here by chance - which makes me really fortunate and I should live every moment to its fullest potential. i choose to live life happy and without hurting another - not because I am guilted to it, but because I have better things to do. I am an atheist because i want to teach my kids demonstrable truth - I cant do that with religion and I have no interest to raise them in a world of guilt and obligation. Free Will Rules!!!

Hey Signal, Thank you that is helpful.

While I am here let me just say that I am not having any doubts about not believing. How could I, one either believes or does not. Anything else is academic. However, what I am trying to source for is if there is something beyond my reasoning ability which has eluded my process of thinking. Nothing thus far has led me to believe so.

Here is a recurring thought that I have: the evidence - demonstrable evidence - is that the bible which every believer refers to, is written by man... A Roman. It seems that with the empire in shambles he used the bible to spread the greatest empire - the Roman Catholic empire. So its pretty certain that the religion is false and anyone claiming that the only way to God (if there is souch a thing) is thru him deserves to be crucified. However, the bible doesn't glorify the existence of god it glorified the worship of a Jerusalem man. Does it not? Look at the mass, does it worship god or a man? So lets take one thing as fact - the catholic faith is ... well off the mark. Now if that is so, then the religion that follows that and believes in the return of Christ must also be false. So thats 2 religions out of the park.

The old testament is full of horror making the original Abrahamic religion scarry at the least - so thats the third religion thats gone! Then there are the other multi-theistic deities and other asian religions which started as philosophies.... Anyway, with extreme respect to all of them, I don't buy one iota of any of it.

The universe as we live in it and what little we are exposed to and enjoy is so much more beautiful than whatever description of heaven any of these books have to offer - including the 70 virgins theory - so I am an atheist because I want to live my life here and now not sitting on my patutie waiting to live life when i am worm food. I am an atheist because mere logic I poses at this point allows me to deduce that a god doesn't exist and that i am here by chance - which makes me really fortunate and I should live every moment to its fullest potential. i choose to live life happy and without hurting another - not because I am guilted to it, but because I have better things to do. I am an atheist because i want to teach my kids demonstrable truth - I cant do that with religion and I have no interest to raise them in a world of guilt and obligation. Free Will Rules!!!



"Here and now" won't last very long you will be dead soon, and one day the human race will be extinct so any history or mark you leave will be worthless.

We are all on a direct course for the grave death is a promise.

Random example.

The seventh heaven would be the largest realm with highest population, the lowest rank of people in heaven will have more than 10 times the Earth, they will be allowed to visit God once a week to ask for any thing they desire.
In my opinion, unfortunately for the man no matter how much he has, matter how much he has in comparison with others.
A man in the jungle which is rich in comparison to those around him he feels himself rich, while a man in an advanced society,
which have 10 times more than the rich man of the jungle, but has less in comparison to those around him, he feels himself poor.
So "the lowest rank of people in heaven" have in vain " more than 10 times the Earth" because they still feel the last.

In my opinion, unfortunately for the man no matter how much he has, matter how much he has in comparison with others.
A man in the jungle which is rich in comparison to those around him he feels himself rich, while a man in an advanced society,
which have 10 times more than the rich man of the jungle, but has less in comparison to those around him, he feels himself poor.
So "the lowest rank of people in heaven" have in vain " more than 10 times the Earth" because they still feel the last.


Rich-ness is a comparison of wealth and happiness.

"Here and now" won't last very long you will be dead soon, and one day the human race will be extinct so any history or mark you leave will be worthless.

We are all on a direct course for the grave death is a promise.
Unfortunately you are right and many can not live with this feeling
For that I am not trying to convince him not to believe in God, with few exceptions.
(maybe I should give up and these few exceptions)

Rich-ness is a comparison of wealth and happiness.
That is human nature. In this way "god" created us. (Respect for the exceptions!)

"Here and now" won't last very long you will be dead soon, and one day the human race will be extinct so any history or mark you leave will be worthless.

We are all on a direct course for the grave death is a promise.

YES YES... you catch my point now. :) I will be dead soon. and I now realize that and I am glad for it because it forces me to realize the here and now is important. it makes me realize that time is fleeting and waiting for the grave is a pipe dream. The human race will be as extinct as the dinosaurs - in the sense whats left - the ones that haven't been killed - would have evolved to higher levels - I agree.

perhaps you are right and it will be worthless - but at least i would have enjoyed doing it. But i am so glad you get my piont - this is my realization too - we all die eventually, why waste life on some unproven 'faith?'

I believe in a materialist explanation of god. I believe people believe in god because the phenomena impacts them personally. I would guess the concept has an impact on the unconscious mind in general, and the collective unconscious in particular. It gives us access to parts of the brain that are not usually conscious. When someone experiences that, they have data for the effect. The religious zealot can achieve drive simply because they get the unconscious to cooperate. This drive scares the atheists because they can only go into shallow unconscious water.

If you looked at a religious achievement like the pyramids, even with limited science and education, they could rival modern engineering techniques. That was because the main CPU of the brain was accessible. The ego can still be an ancient hick based on masks and pretense, as long as the CPU is generating output. Rituals were used to get the deeper parts of the brain in gear but as times changes so did the requirements of the CPU.

Unfortunately you are right and many can not live with this feeling
For that I am not trying to convince him not to believe in God, with few exceptions.
(maybe I should give up and these few exceptions)


Those who cannot live with this feeling are lost and without Faith, It goes against every cell in your body and your survival instinct to tell yourself you wil die and never exist again. There is no lasting content with Atheism only fleeting joys and temporary highs.

Peace.

That is human nature. In this way "god" created us. (Respect for the exceptions!)

I would rather be a homeless wanderer with Faith, than a top 10'er in Fobes without Faith.

To me the man with faith is the rich man, the man with material weath and no faith would be the poor man who I pity.

Peace.

YES YES... you catch my point now. :) I will be dead soon. and I now realize that and I am glad for it because it forces me to realize the here and now is important. it makes me realize that time is fleeting and waiting for the grave is a pipe dream. The human race will be as extinct as the dinosaurs - in the sense whats left - the ones that haven't been killed - would have evolved to higher levels - I agree.

perhaps you are right and it will be worthless - but at least i would have enjoyed doing it. But i am so glad you get my piont - this is my realization too - we all die eventually, why waste life on some unproven 'faith?'

Let me ask you,

Say for instance 2 men went to the Cinema to watch a movie/film, one man got his memory wiped after watching said movie, while the other man's memory was left intact.

Would you say the man who had his memory wiped and his experience with the movie mattered at-all?. what would his experience with the movie matter once he has completely forgot he watched it? This is the comparison of a theist and an atheist in this physical world, No matter what you experience on earth no matter what anyone does in the end it means nothing and will be remembered by nobody. The only way any of this matters is if it has a lasting and eternal reason and rememberance.

Atheism offers you nothing in this world or the next, it is just "File Delete"

Regardless of what humans evolve into at the end of the long run they will all perish.


Peace.

Those who cannot live with this feeling are lost and without Faith, It goes against every cell in your body and your survival instinct to tell yourself you wil die and never exist again. There is no lasting content with Atheism only fleeting joys and temporary highs.

Peace.

Hi EFOC,

Unfortunately for the first time in this place, i have to respectfully disagree with your assumption. While you have every right to your opinion, an assumption that we every cell in my body craves a higher being - as someone who recently saw the light - i have been living a really wonderful existence these last few years. Its hard to neglect that more and more people are turning to the belief in self vs the belief in 'faith'.

...No matter what you experience on earth no matter what anyone does in the end it means nothing and will be remembered by nobody. The only way any of this matters is if it has a lasting and eternal reason and rememberance.

Atheism offers you nothing in this world or the next, it is just "File Delete"

Regardless of what humans evolve into at the end of the long run they will all perish.


Peace.

Like no one remembers or appreciates the contributions of Thomas Jefferson? ...or Lucretius or Democritus or Thomas Paine?

However, what I am trying to source for is if there is something beyond my reasoning ability which has eluded my process of thinking. Nothing thus far has led me to believe so.

As Hamlet would say - There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy.



The universe as we live in it and what little we are exposed to and enjoy is so much more beautiful than whatever description of heaven any of these books have to offer - including the 70 virgins theory - so I am an atheist because I want to live my life here and now not sitting on my patutie waiting to live life when i am worm food. I am an atheist because mere logic I poses at this point allows me to deduce that a god doesn't exist and that i am here by chance - which makes me really fortunate and I should live every moment to its fullest potential. i choose to live life happy and without hurting another - not because I am guilted to it, but because I have better things to do. I am an atheist because i want to teach my kids demonstrable truth - I cant do that with religion and I have no interest to raise them in a world of guilt and obligation. Free Will Rules!!!

When I am reading this, I have the impression that you're not so sure after all somehow.

:shrug:

Like I said elsewhere:


There are many things that believers and non-believers agree upon. For example, both agree that friendship is good, and murder is bad.

The question is only which explanation (the one from the believers or the one from the non-believers) makes the most sense of the values and virtues that we all agree upon.

Can the non-believers really produce such a justification for moral behavior that would make the moral behavior obligatory and justify sanctions for transgressing it?

Hi EFOC,

Unfortunately for the first time in this place, i have to respectfully disagree with your assumption. While you have every right to your opinion, an assumption that we every cell in my body craves a higher being - as someone who recently saw the light - i have been living a really wonderful existence these last few years. Its hard to neglect that more and more people are turning to the belief in self vs the belief in 'faith'.

Hi ^^

Not craves a Higher being that wasn't my point although I don't refute that I think humans do need God. Anyway I was speaking about our natural instinct for survival, the human mind and body says "I must survive" hardly anybody wants to give up and die (Suicidal exceptions) everybody wants to live and prolong their existence as long as possible. You can be happy on temporary highs and fleeting joy's when you are a non beiever I was agnostic/Atheist most of my life and I was happy "In the moment" but nobody want's to watch everyone they love die around them (Family, friends) Deep down you want to be with them and not have to say goodbye, can you honestly watch your mother or father on their death beds as an atheist and then tell yourself "I am happy with this" I couldn't.

Believing in your self is only good for certain things, when death takes your loved ones the beief in "Self" proves futile and you realize how powerless you really are.

Peace.

Like no one remembers or appreciates the contributions of Thomas Jefferson? ...or Lucretius or Democritus or Thomas Paine?

Check back in 900 billion years and ask how many people remember Jefferson, oh right you won't be able to because you along with the earth and human race won't be here.

Are you serious? If my legacy lasted as long as the human race, I would not be disappointed.

Are you serious? If my legacy lasted as long as the human race, I would not be disappointed.

After you and the Human race and this earth are gone, your legacy will mean nothing, Royalty in a kingdom of dirt.

Boo hoo.

In a word, nothing.

After you and the Human race and this earth are gone, your legacy will mean nothing, Royalty in a kingdom of dirt.Wow! you make some huge leaps without any evidence whatsoever.
ROTLMAO are we on the same planet, cause your planet seems to be in cloud cockoo land.
Make sense or STFU, please, your giving my arse a nasty headache.

And simply answer to the OP, what's the worst that could happen "Nothing". It's all imaginary.

Wow! you make some huge leaps without any evidence whatsoever.
ROTLMAO are we on the same planet, cause your planet seems to be in cloud cockoo land.
Make sense or STFU, please, your giving my arse a nasty headache.

And simply answer to the OP, what's the worst that could happen "Nothing". It's all imaginary.

Want to spew anymore insults, go ahead your an atheist you wont get an infraction for it.

....Religion is all lies, so what's one more anyway? :)

I agree

in respect to the guys response on fraggle rocker, I believe animals are considered to have souls, and that ideal animals go to heaven.....

so then every bug, fish, dinosaur, bird, etc that has ever died, has gone to heaven?

so then every bug, fish, dinosaur, bird, etc that has ever died, has gone to heaven?

If you thought Noah's Ark was crowded...at least bacteria have very tiny souls.

so then every bug, fish, dinosaur, bird, etc that has ever died, has gone to heaven?

heaven has no poop in it..

And simply answer to the OP, what's the worst that could happen "Nothing". It's all imaginary.

that assumes a no-god scenario..you can't compare 'worse' without something to compare it to..

to just delete half the equation is very irresponsible of you.
I only phrase it like that because i think you were WAY too emotional with your other comments.

heaven has no poop in it..
That's sad.

Comon this is so easy - you burn forever in hell.

Want to spew anymore insults, go ahead your an atheist you wont get an infraction for it.Technically I'm atheist, but I label myself a humanist, I don't accept negative labels from theists. Where have I insulted you in that post. Saying your in cloud cuckoo land, is fact, your making bold statements about god that you have no evidence for and could not possibly know.
All I was requesting was you stop doing it, you ruin every thread because of you incessant, unverified BS, give it a rest, or put up some evidence (cite your frigging sources), for said BS.


that assumes a no-god scenario..you can't compare 'worse' without something to compare it to..What! it assumes nothing, it's a statement of fact, unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

Comon this is so easy - you burn forever in hell.

Really, wow. How do you come to that?

Check back in 900 billion years and ask how many people remember Jefferson, oh right you won't be able to because you along with the earth and human race won't be here.

There are two things wrong with that picture for me: Here is why I have no qualms about accepting the truth as I see it. First of all - no human on earth has an inkling of the concept of eternity. So wanting to live for eternity is not a realistic desire. Is it? Second, here is one thing about religion I find duplicitous - they claim wanting to feed the poor, but yet don't - they claim selflessness but exhibit the need for recognition i.e. " I am not going to do something good as I wont be around to bear its fruits" ....

As for me, the obvious design of life is to improve via evolution and natural selection each generation has improved itself on the backs of history's giants - Plato, Galileo, Newton, and the list is long and sometimes incomplete as there were just so many.

I strive to contribute in my own way - and its not by helping the less 'fortunate' its to be the best i can be. I see that being selfish will result in a Pareto optimal outcome rather than been selfless. And cooperation (while being selfish), better than working alone.

Tell me different. but back it up. I am all ears.

First of all - no human on earth has an inkling of the concept of eternity.

How do you know that??

Have you questioned every single person, inclduing those that have lived in the past?

How do you know that??

Have you questioned every single person, inclduing those that have lived in the past?

Taking it in context, so I must ask, have you? meaning, do you have comprehension of eternity. Or do you know of anyone, or do you kow of anyone that knows anyone? As I would love to be proven wrong and shown something that is beyond me. Are you the same way or are you so delusional that you will not accept the possibility of what you think is true?

Asking me if I have asked every single person, is a puerile comeback, I thought better of you. However, in the realm of adult conversations, one knows that in the event we (any member of past or present society) did have an inkling of the description - and not a theory - it would have surfaced in the journals or it would have been unified amongst the religions as to what eternity is. But we are yet to have that - do you disagree, Signal?? By the way, was that a serious question, it would be impossible to ask ever one and it would be impossible to ask people in the past - you do know that right?

Please comment with something credible or interesting semantic comebacks do not advance the argument, just retard it.

Let me pose this hypothetical. Assuming I was born into a certain religion and now thinking of apostacy, and my last consideration is this: If i made the leap would I be punished - and if so what would that punishment be (if any.. think ''Prodigal Son") Or if I stayed I am limited to reach my true potential due to ridiculous laws, commandments, parables, teachings aimed at keeping me 'loyal' by guilt. From a purely cerebral perspective (please no old wives tales) what should my considerations be.....

Abandoning one's religion is an act of bravery, sincerity; on the contrary, staying in the religion you were born to just because it's convenient, is hypocritical. True religion has no sect, and if you meditate on the words of the founders of each religion, you will notice that you can't sign in to any specific religion, 'cause they were talking about an inner journey and not a dogmatic sect that worships them...

What! it assumes nothing, it's a statement of fact, unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

whats the worst that can happen if you do not believe in God?
requires comparison

A, God exists and if you do not believe in God you will go to hell
(if religious books have that part right)
B, God exists, religion has got it wrong and god cares more about how/who you are rather than you worshiping him and following someone else's rules.
so you may think you are going to hell,when you are not.
C, God does not exist, nothing happens if you do not believe in God..

the question was what was 'Worse', it did not ask what was 'truth'.

so with only the choices above (im sure you guys can add to it)
the 'worst' would be 'going to hell', wouldn't it? (of course this assumes, hell is as bad as we think it is)

As I would love to be proven wrong and shown something that is beyond me. Are you the same way or are you so delusional that you will not accept the possibility of what you think is true?

Wait till old age gets you, I guess ... :D

whats the worst that can happen if you do not believe in God?
requires comparison

A, God exists and if you do not believe in God you will go to hell
(if religious books have that part right)Far too broad, out of all the countless religious books, there are in the world, the most logical thing to do, as there is no evidence to support any of them, is to say" they can't all be right but they can all be wrong" and reject them all. (Hence no need for comparison)

B, God exists, religion has got it wrong and god cares more about how/who you are rather than you worshiping him and following someone else's rules.
so you may think you are going to hell,when you are not.Well in this case, he would be fine as he does not worship god, and no doubt he is a good person, so again. (Hence nothing bad will happen to him, so no need for comparison)

C, God does not exist, nothing happens if you do not believe in God..Which is clear as day.

the question was what was 'Worse', it did not ask what was 'truth'.

so with only the choices above (im sure you guys can add to it)
the 'worst' would be 'going to hell', wouldn't it? (of course this assumes, hell is as bad as we think it is)No as we've established there's no evidence for such a place, that we know of, anything can be imagined. It is pointless entertaining such a possibility until we have evidence, it is merely scare tactics. So the worst that could happen is "nothing".

What's the worst that can happen? IDK - The Spanish Inquisition would suck.

Abandoning one's religion is an act of bravery, sincerity; on the contrary, staying in the religion you were born to just because it's convenient, is hypocritical. True religion has no sect, and if you meditate on the words of the founders of each religion, you will notice that you can't sign in to any specific religion, 'cause they were talking about an inner journey and not a dogmatic sect that worships them...

Awesome point. Who are the founders of the catholic religion and the muslims?

Awesome point. Who are the founders of the catholic religion and the muslims?

That's a good question.

When I say the "founders" I don't mean the political ones. I mean the person from whose teachings a whole religion was born.

You may say Jesus was the "founder" of Christianity, although that is not true. Since Christianity did not exist when Jesus was alive, and Buddhism did not exist when Buddha was alive, etc. The same is true with every major religion.

The catholic religion was officialy founded by Roman politics hundreds of years after Jesus was walking this Earth, and it was much more a political movement than it is a spiritual one. I don't think you can learn much about spirituality from these founders.

But you can read the words of Jesus that we have available, and by not being in a dogmatic religion, you can interpret these teachings in your own way (according to your own understanding); that is not possible by following a cult or sect.

The same is true with muslims (which in Mohammads time the Islam religion did not exist), but he called people "muslims" from the literal meaning: "one who surrenders". It has nothing to do with the dogmatic religion that some branches of Islam now are.

It is very weird how people take the words of inspiration and love from Jesus or Mohammad, and translate them into something ugly like killing other people just for not believing what they do.

If you really follow the teachings of Jesus, you cannot be a Christian. It's paradoxical, but it is true.

Buddha actually created Buddhism in his lifetime, so did Mohammad. Mohammed also killed people in his lifetime for not believing as he did (the Jews in Medina).

That's a good question.

When I say the "founders" I don't mean the political ones. I mean the person from whose teachings a whole religion was born.

You may say Jesus was the "founder" of Christianity, although that is not true. Since Christianity did not exist when Jesus was alive, and Buddhism did not exist when Buddha was alive, etc. The same is true with every major religion.

The catholic religion was officialy founded by Roman politics hundreds of years after Jesus was walking this Earth, and it was much more a political movement than it is a spiritual one. I don't think you can learn much about spirituality from these founders.

But you can read the words of Jesus that we have available, and by not being in a dogmatic religion, you can interpret these teachings in your own way (according to your own understanding); that is not possible by following a cult or sect.

The same is true with muslims (which in Mohammads time the Islam religion did not exist), but he called people "muslims" from the literal meaning: "one who surrenders". It has nothing to do with the dogmatic religion that some branches of Islam now are.

It is very weird how people take the words of inspiration and love from Jesus or Mohammad, and translate them into something ugly like killing other people just for not believing what they do.

If you really follow the teachings of Jesus, you cannot be a Christian. It's paradoxical, but it is true.

Hi Wisdom Seeker,

I really appreciate you taking the time to write a lucid, unemotional and unbiased opinion. It is this sort of input I was hoping to read when I first posted the question.

You are right about the source of the religion being the true path to consider not the politicized versions. I agree and that is in part the problem I have with religions - all of them.

How have you reconciled the following - I am sure the questions have arisen - is it possible to know what Moses/Jesus/Budha/Muhammad all really preached since all religions may have been politicized. How do you extract their words from the sea of garbage that followed later and piled upon for millennia.

Next, if you are saying that these people found the truth about a supreme being and its contents a so complex that it has to be related in simpler forms, I can find a way of believing it, but if you say that these people were emissaries of a creator then we are back to square one.

Is there evidence of any of this, is my point at the end of the day?


Again, thank you, your input is appreciated. and btw, do you know if the teachings of all the 'founders' jive with each other?

NA

Hi Wisdom Seeker,

I really appreciate you taking the time to write a lucid, unemotional and unbiased opinion. It is this sort of input I was hoping to read when I first posted the question.

You are right about the source of the religion being the true path to consider not the politicized versions. I agree and that is in part the problem I have with religions - all of them. NA

Hi New Atheist ; You are welcome man.


How have you reconciled the following - I am sure the questions have arisen - is it possible to know what Moses/Jesus/Budha/Muhammad all really preached since all religions may have been politicized. How do you extract their words from the sea of garbage that followed later and piled upon for millennia.NA

Your assumptions are correct; truth is you can't know for sure which parts are garbage. Buddhism has not been tampered with as much as Christianity and Islam, but there are many interpretations of the original teachings.
One Zen Master was asked this question you ask, to which he responded: "All scriptures are the devil's teachings".
You really can't find the ultimate truth in scriptures, but scriptures do tend to lead you somewhere beyond their words if you are aware while reading. The way I read these type of literature is by integrating the teachings with my daily life, only taking in consideration that which I can relate to with my personal experience.


Next, if you are saying that these people found the truth about a supreme being and its contents a so complex that it has to be related in simpler forms, I can find a way of believing it, but if you say that these people were emissaries of a creator then we are back to square one.
NA

The very word “god” can be interpreted in many ways, but the concept of a separated deity is contradictory to the concept of an eternal god. As you may know time and space are not separate things, but a space-time continuum. If god is eternal (timeless), then he would also be space less; it is easier to understand this as: God is Love, or God is Unity (unity of everything) that leaves nothing behind.
One of my favorite interpretations is that god is creativity; and not the creator. God is evolution itself. God is within each living being as love and creativity. Jesus said “God is Love”, he didn’t say “God is a loving being” No!! There is a major difference between this two statements.
I don’t think the past, present and future prophets and messiahs are “sent” by anyone or anything. I think that these people had an inner-realization of something most people ignore due to ego-clinging and conditioning of personality by the society and environment.
I would explain it in pseudo-psychoanalytical words: these people reached a point in life were they are no longer bound by their repressions and unconsciousness. Everything is made conscious, every breath, every movement of the body and mind is conscious (on purpose, done with own will, not automatically due to past conditioning). I say “pseudo” because for psychoanalysis this point of personal growth or “state of being” is unreachable and only theoretical; I think that is because they have never studied someone who has reached it.
As Jesus is reported to have said: "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way.”. The path of consciousness is the path of the few. But no sage has declared himself different than everybody else. Mohammad called this people the “muslims”, people who have surrendered their egos.


Is there evidence of any of this, is my point at the end of the day? NA
Some of these prophets are undisputable historical figures, others are just myth. But the reality is that they had something special that made millions of people follow them, something that a common or normal person lacks; some god-like quality.


and btw, do you know if the teachings of all the 'founders' jive with each other?NA
You would be surprised that yes, they mingle and jingle together like the notes of a beautiful song. I have read christian, muslim, buddhist and hindu scriptures and even if I have found contradictions, I also understood the point they were trying to make. Ultimately what really matters is never contradicted; and what really matters are statements that can make you grow as a human being.

What's the worst that can happen? IDK - The Spanish Inquisition would suck.

Ain't that the truth . That little bit of hell did some real damage .

If you didn't believe ...

NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN

I like that " Mingle and Jingle like the notes of a beautiful song part . Yeah! Way! Rock and Roll will never die . The Rockies may tumble Gibraltar may rumble there only made of clay , bur Our love is hear to stay

If you didn't believe ...

NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN

The Christians will blow up your clinic. What you talking about ? It has already happened . Muslims might blow up a building . Buddhist will , I don't know what they will do , Probably sit and watch . There are lots of things that will happen . The Spanish inquisition was a great example. In to the fire . Ah ah ah ah ah ah Fire

as there is no evidence to support any of them, is to say" they can't all be right but they can all be wrong" and reject them all.
irresponsible to the discussion, to distract the question by making it about proof/evidence.the OP wasn't about proof/evidence..its about conjecture,



No as we've established there's no evidence for such a place, that we know of, anything can be imagined.

once again the OP doesn't ask for evidence, the question was not trying to establish a validity to the options..it just asked what is the 'worst' that can happen, not what is likely to happen..to dismiss an option just because you do not believe in it therefor not worth entering in any equation is irresponsible..

IE: i don't believe in ℵα, therefor if i see or hear of it i will argue that it doesn't exist,and not use it to calculate (whatever this is used to calculate..)
<represents an infinite cardinality (specifically, the α-th one, where α is an ordinal).>

you may keep your opinion that God does not exist,i won't even try to convince you that he does, but i will answer what i believe if asked,(sometimes when i am not asked) ,but remember it is my opinion as to who/what God is, not what IS the truth about God.(no one truly knows.)
(of course i think my beliefs about who/what God is closer to the truth than others..duh..thats human nature to think you know better than someone else)

if you ask a question about God, expect the answer to assume he exists..
IOW don't ask about God if all you are going to do is troll the proof/evidence argument.
thats not very intelligent as you limit your own thinking to what could be.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/sc00pgirl/Blinkies/nd7by9_th1.gif

You really can't find the ultimate truth in scriptures, but scriptures do tend to lead you somewhere beyond their words if you are aware while reading.
sounds like you are saying that the scriptures teaches you to 'think for yourself' and make up your own mind.:thumbsup:



The way I read these type of literature is by integrating the teachings with my daily life, only taking in consideration that which I can relate to with my personal experience.
as it should..not 'do as your told.'


I don’t think the past, present and future prophets and messiahs are “sent” by anyone or anything. I think that these people had an inner-realization of something most people ignore due to ego-clinging and conditioning of personality by the society and environment.

well said..
evidence is testimonies,
proof is in your heart.

That's what I'm talking about NMSquirrel

Abandoning one's religion is an act of bravery, sincerity; on the contrary, staying in the religion you were born to just because it's convenient, is hypocritical. True religion has no sect, and if you meditate on the words of the founders of each religion, you will notice that you can't sign in to any specific religion, 'cause they were talking about an inner journey and not a dogmatic sect that worships them...

What role would you say does the community of believers play in one's own spirituality?

The Buddha said that admirable friendship in the holy life is the whole of the holy life.
Jesus also stressed the importance of associating with the like-minded, in his name.

Would you say that spirituality is primarily a solitary endeavor of studying various texts and applying some tenets from them to one's daily life?

Without taking part in an organized religious community, how can one have hope that one will atain what the various texts that one reads are promising?

irresponsible to the discussion, to distract the question by making it about proof/evidence.the OP wasn't about proof/evidence..its about conjecture,If it is about conjecture then anything can be assumed.
As was said in the very first reply "That will depend on which religion you subscribe to." and adding to that "whatever one you could conjure up"
Once again the OP doesn't ask for evidence, the question was not trying to establish a validity to the options..it just asked what is the 'worst' that can happen, not what is likely to happen..I think you need to read the OP again, here it is in it's entirety "Let me pose this hypothetical. Assuming I was born into a certain religion and now thinking of apostacy, and my last consideration is this: If i made the leap would I be punished - and if so what would that punishment be (if any.. think ''Prodigal Son") Or if I stayed I am limited to reach my true potential due to ridiculous laws, commandments, parables, teachings aimed at keeping me 'loyal' by guilt. From a purely cerebral perspective (please no old wives tales) what should my considerations be....." You see it does ask what is likely to happen. You made more of it.
It is the thread title that asks "Whats the worst that can happen if I do not believe in god" As we have no proof of the existence of a god, then stating "nothing" is perfectly valid answer. considering he states he has no belief in a god, all these point to a preponderance of evidence that nothing will happen.

if you ask a question about God, expect the answer to assume he exists..However I haven't asked a question about god, I've merely replied to the OP as I see it needs to be replied.

Let me pose this hypothetical. Assuming I was born into a certain religion and now thinking of apostacy, and my last consideration is this: If i made the leap would I be punished - and if so what would that punishment be (if any.. think ''Prodigal Son") Or if I stayed I am limited to reach my true potential due to ridiculous laws, commandments, parables, teachings aimed at keeping me 'loyal' by guilt. From a purely cerebral perspective (please no old wives tales) what should my considerations be.....

http://www.dumage.com/img/nature/hippo-attacked-the-crocodile/hippo-attacked-the-crocodile03.jpg
that sometimes you get to be the hippo, other times the crocodile

What role would you say does the community of believers play in one's own spirituality?
I say this with no intention to offend anybody, but for me, the "community of believers" is just necesary when you believe in something you also doubt; so you need others to reinforce this. Actually belief and doubt cannot be separated easily, and with blind belief always comes the shadow of doubt.


The Buddha said that admirable friendship in the holy life is the whole of the holy life.
Jesus also stressed the importance of associating with the like-minded, in his name.
The commune is another matter, communes form when people want to live a spiritual life together, no need for belief or dogma. Everyone can follow his/her own heart. Most communes revolve around a spiritual guide; this only works if the spiritual guide has reached the realization himself (which is usually not the case). But there are also communes without a specific leader (although they read scriptures, they don't consider them "law" but just aids in the path).

A religious dogma congregation is different, they are just needed to cheer and reinforce blind belief.

When Jesus says "Gather in my name", he doesn't mean to praise him. But to gather for the goal of achieving Christ-Consciousness in this life; not in a place after death that you have to blindly believe in.


Would you say that spirituality is primarily a solitary endeavor of studying various texts and applying some tenets from them to one's daily life?
Not really, it is a solitary endeavor alright; but does not necesarily include the study of scriptures. What is really necesary is to know oneself; scriptures can help and are a very good starting point, but getting to know oneself is indeed a solitary endeavor. Faith in the sages who have achieved have proven to be a good inspiration to continue in this solitary path.
If you meditate, then you will be totally alone, even if you have people meditating around you (which actually helps), you are alone with your thoughts. And you don't need a group of people to encourage you or cheer you up, 'cause getting to know yourself is a goal into itself.

We are bound by our "incomplete past actions" or karma, or repressions; you may call it different ways, but these control most of your thoughts and therefore present actions. If you enter into this realm, you will start seing the causes of the thoughts (where they originated from) and just by seing you will be free of them. Nobody can do this for you, psycoanalisys can help, but it won't get you to the end of the road.


Without taking part in an organized religious community, how can one have hope that one will atain what the various texts that one reads are promising?
There is a Zen saying: "When the disciple is ready, the master arrives".
The work you do on yourself can only get you so far most of the times. You will see the results of your practice without the need of external guidance.
But if you reach a point where you feel that you are stuck, then a proper guide is needed.

Very few times a man reaches to the realization all by himself, most of the times a master is needed. Even Jesus had a master who guided him at the beggining of his journey (John the Baptist).

If it is about conjecture then anything can be assumed.
uf..
<realization of ironic truth..>



It is the thread title that asks "Whats the worst that can happen if I do not believe in god" As we have no proof of the existence of a god, then stating "nothing" is perfectly valid answer.
actually, i surrendered at:


Is there evidence of any of this, is my point at the end of the day?

i just forgot to tell you..:D

anyway..

church helps immensely when trying to read the bible,they help to provide references you can check, at least the better ones..the ones that teach 'think for yourself', the ones you have to hunt for..

biblegateway (http://www.biblegateway.com/) is what i use for looking up scripture online, but i would recomend a site that has multiple translations that you can compare side by side to glean a little more understanding..
E-Sword (http://www.e-sword.net/) is a good program for your computer (its not an online one,but better)

anyway..

church helps immensely when trying to read the bible,they help to provide references you can check, at least the better ones..the ones that teach 'think for yourself', the ones you have to hunt for..

Well, not really. And here is why, the bible itself has numerous contradictions and we know it was written by a mere mortal for political reasons. Why then would we seek the answer form there?

Is there some place credible I can look to for an answer to such an important question.

Well, not really. And here is why, the bible itself has numerous contradictions and we know it was written by a mere mortal for political reasons. Why then would we seek the answer form there?

Is there some place credible I can look to for an answer to such an important question.

no matter where you go, the answers will be subjective..

i'm just saying churches are more knowledgeable as to sources of info concerning the bible..not trying to say look to the church as ultimate authority,just as a resource for reference material.

Is there some place credible I can look to for an answer to such an important question.

This is an intelligent question.

Whom can one ask important questions?
What ought one read in order to find answers to important questions?
What must one do in order to get in contact with those people or books?
How should one approach them?
How should one formulate one's questions?
What attitude should one have toward those people or books?


- these are things to think about.

to the op,

the worst thing is that you miss out on experiencing, and having a relationship with, god. that's because you would at least have to believe in the possibility of god existing, in order to decide whether it's a good idea to seek it out or not. and if you refuse to believe something, then you could be staring at it all day long, and still not allow yourself to recognize it.

to the op,

the worst thing is that you miss out on experiencing, and having a relationship with, god. that's because you would at least have to believe in the possibility of god existing, in order to decide whether it's a good idea to seek it out or not. and if you refuse to believe something, then you could be staring at it all day long, and still not allow yourself to recognize it.

But Lori, the OP cannot relate to that to begin with. It was probably vague advice like yours that drove him to the edge. :(

But Lori, the OP cannot relate to that to begin with. It was probably vague advice like yours that drove him to the edge. :(

sorry, i didn't address the op at all did i? i didn't read it. i just read the thread title.

i'm being a bad sciforums member. here, i'll give myself a spanking...:spank:

in regards to the op, i don't think that god really wants people to obey rules without not only understanding why they are what they are, but having understood why, and experienced why, actually have a conditioned desire to do the right thing. you can't fake it with god, and even if you could, it really wouldn't mean anything, you know?

at the end of the day, you have to be ok with who you are and why. you don't have to look into it. you don't have to question it if you don't want to, but a lot of people live a huge chunk of their life, or even their entire lives, not being ok with who they are, and that's really sad.

i don't think you can learn anything from following rules except how to be disciplined, which is good but, is supposed to arrive at an outcome of some sort, not just go on indefinitely with a war going on inside of you...strife, because you have to do things that you don't really want to do, and don't understand why you should have to.

from what i know about god, he wants you to be entirely free, to be the best you that you could ever be. he's not a big fan of conformity or religion as far as i can tell. god really just wants to get to know you. the real you, whoever that may be.

i don't think you can learn anything from following rules except how to be disciplined, which is good but, is supposed to arrive at an outcome of some sort, not just go on indefinitely with a war going on inside of you...strife, because you have to do things that you don't really want to do, and don't understand why you should have to.

being forced to conform whether right or wrong, increases dissension.
(i wouldn't mind paying for insurance if i wasn't forced to..same with seat belts)


from what i know about god, he wants you to be entirely free, to be the best you that you could ever be. he's not a big fan of conformity or religion as far as i can tell. god really just wants to get to know you. the real you, whoever that may be.

i agree with that 100%

sorry, i didn't address the op at all did i? i didn't read it. i just read the thread title.

i'm being a bad sciforums member. here, i'll give myself a spanking...:spank:

in regards to the op, i don't think that god really wants people to obey rules without not only understanding why they are what they are, but having understood why, and experienced why, actually have a conditioned desire to do the right thing. you can't fake it with god, and even if you could, it really wouldn't mean anything, you know?

at the end of the day, you have to be ok with who you are and why. you don't have to look into it. you don't have to question it if you don't want to, but a lot of people live a huge chunk of their life, or even their entire lives, not being ok with who they are, and that's really sad.

i don't think you can learn anything from following rules except how to be disciplined, which is good but, is supposed to arrive at an outcome of some sort, not just go on indefinitely with a war going on inside of you...strife, because you have to do things that you don't really want to do, and don't understand why you should have to.

from what i know about god, he wants you to be entirely free, to be the best you that you could ever be. he's not a big fan of conformity or religion as far as i can tell. god really just wants to get to know you. the real you, whoever that may be.

I find this vague as well.

My point isn't that there should be focus on rules, as you seem to suggest.

It is that for many people, "look within", "you have to be ok with who you are and why", "he wants you to be entirely free, to be the best you that you could ever be" and such are extremely vague notions that they don't know what to do with, and they just frustrate them.

Perhaps for you and some others, these things are easy to understand, but for many people they are not.
And perhaps you are unable to understand how anyone could not understand these things.

One cannot make oneself understand them by somehow gritting one's teeth, thinking "I am okay with who I am - whatever that means".

Hence the importance of philosophy.

And please, spare us wit "God is easy for the simple-minded, and hard for the crooked" and the like. It may be true, but it doesn't help anyone.

I find this vague as well.

My point isn't that there should be focus on rules, as you seem to suggest.

i was addressing the op. that was my response to the op, not to you. in response to you, i was elaborating.


It is that for many people, "look within", "you have to be ok with who you are and why", "he wants you to be entirely free, to be the best you that you could ever be" and such are extremely vague notions that they don't know what to do with, and they just frustrate them.

Perhaps for you and some others, these things are easy to understand, but for many people they are not.
And perhaps you are unable to understand how anyone could not understand these things.

One cannot make oneself understand them by somehow gritting one's teeth, thinking "I am okay with who I am - whatever that means".

Hence the importance of philosophy.

And please, spare us wit "God is easy for the simple-minded, and hard for the crooked" and the like. It may be true, but it doesn't help anyone.

i didn't say it was easy. :shrug:

But Lori, the OP cannot relate to that to begin with. It was probably vague advice like yours that drove him to the edge. :(

It's not a laughing matter, but I have to say - that has me in stitches. But to clarify, seriously, it wasn't a reason, but it sure was a catalyst.

sorry, i didn't address the op at all did i? i didn't read it. i just read the thread title.

i'm being a bad sciforums member. here, i'll give myself a spanking...:spank:

in regards to the op, i don't think that god really wants people to obey rules without not only understanding why they are what they are, but having understood why, and experienced why, actually have a conditioned desire to do the right thing. you can't fake it with god, and even if you could, it really wouldn't mean anything, you know?

at the end of the day, you have to be ok with who you are and why. you don't have to look into it. you don't have to question it if you don't want to, but a lot of people live a huge chunk of their life, or even their entire lives, not being ok with who they are, and that's really sad.

i don't think you can learn anything from following rules except how to be disciplined, which is good but, is supposed to arrive at an outcome of some sort, not just go on indefinitely with a war going on inside of you...strife, because you have to do things that you don't really want to do, and don't understand why you should have to.

from what i know about god, he wants you to be entirely free, to be the best you that you could ever be. he's not a big fan of conformity or religion as far as i can tell. god really just wants to get to know you. the real you, whoever that may be.

You say " i don't thinks god really wants people to obey rules without... understanding what they are...understanding why...conditioned to do the right thing..." but isn't that the exact opposite of what Abrahamic religions teach. "Do as he says without question or perish." Also, if you say that then would the opposite be true. i.e. I do not understand the reasons agains apostasy, thus there are no implications?

I am really ok with who I am by the way, and it is a very new feeling. Before I had the epiphany, I was not happy with who I was. Constantly wondering what I am going to say at confession. I wish I had all those times back. and you are right... that is sad, do you think I will teach this to the next generation - not a chance, we teach our kids to love and live life - not be caught up with an invisible fairy tale.

i don't think god (if there is such a creation singularity) wants to get to know me, why not the other 6billion people, what about horses, cats and dogs and ants and apes. Does he want to get to know all of them? Or is he something we created to sooth ourselves from our mistakes and the inevitable end.

Anyone catching my drift?

And please, spare us wit "God is easy for the simple-minded, and hard for the crooked" and the like. It may be true, but it doesn't help anyone.

I think its the crooked who need the 'Get out of Jail Free Card that gods seem to offer through tithes, donations, gifts, confession/penance, etc etc. God being for the simple minded may be true as simple natural concepts just "does not compute" But for those who can think - the logic, rules and commandments do not stand up to scrutiny.

There are many levels of theistic philosophy.
Mainstream Christianity is not all there is.

Cool. Would you mind naming one (or more) that provides a simple, logical, provable answer?

I think its the crooked who need the 'Get out of Jail Free Card that gods seem to offer through tithes, donations, gifts, confession/penance, etc etc. God being for the simple minded may be true as simple natural concepts just "does not compute" But for those who can think - the logic, rules and commandments do not stand up to scrutiny.

um..
one..works will not save anyone..it is easy to go through the motions (tithes,donations,gifts,etc)
it doesn't require any intelligence to create routine..

two..commandments doesn't stand up to scrutiny???

don't steal
don't kill
don't screw someone elses wife..
how is this not valid?

Nice editing, NMSquirrel, I guess you can't defend all of them can you?

Nice editing, NMSquirrel, I guess you can't defend all of them can you?

only if i remember all of them....

Cool. Would you mind naming one (or more) that provides a simple, logical, provable answer?

If by "provable", you mean 'provable by mainstream Western science', then you are already impliyng that you have taken that science as your religion. So you should look there, not elsewhere.

IOW, gain clarity on your own criteria for what you consider "valid," "relevant," "sound," "good," and then take your search from there, as this way, you will know where and what to look for.

If by "provable", you mean 'provable by mainstream Western science', then you are already impliyng that you have taken that science as your religion. So you should look there, not elsewhere.

IOW, gain clarity on your own criteria for what you consider "valid," "relevant," "sound," "good," and then take your search from there, as this way, you will know where and what to look for.Utter rubbish, I doubt he's into redefining words and there meaning, like you are. Just be honest and answer the man.

If by "provable", you mean 'provable by mainstream Western science', then you are already impliyng that you have taken that science as your religion. So you should look there, not elsewhere.

IOW, gain clarity on your own criteria for what you consider "valid," "relevant," "sound," "good," and then take your search from there, as this way, you will know where and what to look for.

No, by "proving" I mean by the standards required for a human being to believe - Western, Asian, Alaskan - doesn't matter. I have not taken science as my religion. I take no religion. But it so happens that scientific forums should provide sufficent scientific arguments for or agains an OP, after all isnt that how ideas flow. Who knows, maybe I have an epiphany and become religious or you gain enlightenment and come to the conclusion that there is no god. I am open to that, are you?

I agree about gaining clarity and I think it is important enough to collaborate with people of like and opposing minds to air the differences. Isnt that why we are here?

If I suggest the Christian mystics, for example, would you oppose, and write them off as rubbish?

If I suggest the Christian mystics, for example, would you oppose, and write them off as rubbish?

I won't. I will not blindly eject fact. I am in search of truth not interested in making a point.

I won't. I will not blindly eject fact. I am in search of truth not interested in making a point.

You should look into the mystic poetry of Mevlana Rumi (Sufi mystic), or the writings of Francis of Assisi (Christian mystic).

To gain a different perspective of religion:

The Dhammapada is a very good starting point for learning about Buddhist phylosophy.

The "Tao te Ching" is a beautiful scripture credited to Lao-Tzu (Father of Taoism).

I would suggest a book that doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic directly, but which I nonetheless find useful for developing one's approach to spiritual topics:

The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are (http://www.amazon.com/Gifts-Imperfection-Think-Supposed-Embrace/dp/159285849X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305091384&sr=8-1)

The author is a social scientist and uses current research to present her ideas.

You should look into the mystic poetry of Mevlana Rumi (Sufi mystic), or the writings of Francis of Assisi (Christian mystic).

To gain a different perspective of religion:

The Dhammapada is a very good starting point for learning about Buddhist phylosophy.

The "Tao te Ching" is a beautiful scripture credited to Lao-Tzu (Father of Taoism).

Thank you Wisdom Seeker. I think we are finally getting somewhere. I will make it a point to add this to my reading list. Have you by any chance had any Eureka moments in your quest? What made you decide there is a god - sorry i cant think of some cerebral way to phrase it. :D

I would suggest a book that doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic directly, but which I nonetheless find useful for developing one's approach to spiritual topics:

The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are (http://www.amazon.com/Gifts-Imperfection-Think-Supposed-Embrace/dp/159285849X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305091384&sr=8-1)

The author is a social scientist and uses current research to present her ideas.

The title alone already jumps out and appeals to my way of thinking so, I hope the contents is just as good. Thank you.

If I suggest the Christian mystics, for example, would you oppose, and write them off as rubbish?

I have always had a soft spot for christian mysticism myself and some of the wisdom it imparts.

Thank you Wisdom Seeker. I think we are finally getting somewhere. I will make it a point to add this to my reading list.
No problem; I'm looking forward to discuss them with you when you read them :).


Have you by any chance had any Eureka moments in your quest? What made you decide there is a god - sorry i cant think of some cerebral way to phrase it. :D
I don't know if I would call them Eureka moments, but once my understanding of many religions grew I found myself being captured by an overwhelming feeling that came to me in certain moments.
I can give you one example: you can read the New Testament superficially, and I did use to read it superficially when I was younger. I now realize I didn’t quite understand it until I studied many other religions and philosophies. When I felt that my understanding was higher (not only by reading, but applying certain teachings in my life), I re-read the NT with a different “light”. During my listening to an audio book of the “Sermon on the Mount” while sitting in semi-lotus posture with my eyes closed, my heart was filled with joy and tears were running through my face. I cannot describe this feeling very accurately, and I cannot find a better word for it than “Love”; but it is a very strange kind of Love, because it is not directed to anyone or any object in particular. Love is there, that is undeniable; but as to why, and how I don’t know the start of it.
It is like one of those feelings that you can only enjoy, the idea does not come into your mind to question it. It happens as an inner-realization of one’s truth I guess (like a thief in the night, without notice).


What made you decide there is a god - sorry i cant think of some cerebral way to phrase it. :D
I have not decided anything really; I decided many things when I was younger but I know now that spirituality is never static, as in having the final answer for something. At least for me it isn’t.
And by personal experience I know that is very easy to believe in something, it gives a sense of stability and you can then focus on other things. If you have already decided that god exists (or decided he is not), then you will cease to look for “him/it”; and I somehow feel that spirituality is a never-ending search.
I recall something Buddha said, something like Human Beings have a “desiring quality” for completion, which comes from the sense of imperfection. In order to mitigate this desire, we create many imaginary objects of desire (some seek for material goals and some for spiritual goals) and there is where we miss the point. Buddha said that desire is not the problem, the problem is the imaginary objects of desire that we create; and that after full enlightenment the objects of desire disappear, while the desire remains, it is your true nature (pure, uncorrupted desire).

I have always had a soft spot for christian mysticism myself and some of the wisdom it imparts.

Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.

Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.

Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

Point taken.:p