Ah, Creationism. A dusty old book somewhere tells us that the Universe is 6000 yrs old, all animals co-existed and some of them survived on a boat while ancient seagoing repiles, well, drowned, and then the remaining species were, by only a few generations of men, distributed properly around the world and the ecosystem re-established. And its the truth! Or so they say.

The problem with this genesis story is obvious. Its simply not possible. First of all is the time scale. 6000 years isnt long enough for enough individuals to be propagated of the large slow breading animals that are abundant 2day. 2 parents if of a genus cannot speciate in 6000 yrs into the species [like alligators and crocs from a common pair]. However, every species cannot have a pair on the ark and watergoing ancient species should still be alive.

Then comes the distribution. Did Noah and his kids travel to the pacific islands and plant the animals there? How did flooded tropical forests survive and how did the ecology recover so that all animals could retake their niches? Moreover, those animals would be quite hungry, even if u could keep them from killing each other on the arc, surely once distributed, a lion killing a zebra in effect exterminates it. Or did the rotting dinosaurs, who died dispite being good swimmers, excellent predators and scavengers and big enough to survive a few months on fat, provide the meat? Did rotting meat and plants not cause diseases in the animals, who, now very vulnerable, somehow may have quickly managed to reproduce to overcome such consequences?

So a traditional biblical account of Creationism isnt practically viable. But, wait, we have more. Thats right. Intelligent design. Of course, this can only mean practically that aliens created us which leads us into a infinite loop. Intelligent design also fails as vestigial structures, homological [not sure thats the word] features are not intelligent. One would think that a Albatross would be designed with long legs to help take off from a standstill and giraffes would have proper sized back legs so that they dont have to have akward poses while drinking and can run efficiently. Orangutans would have tails.

All in all, a creationist viewpoint isn't one that is naturally arrived at by observation, that creationism requires the inference drawn before observation and can only be substantiated by cherrypicking evidence. Most people support it only beacause of religious support for it coupled with very little knowledge of actual biology.

In closing, I would also like to disagree with teach the controversy and include in textbooks without peer review; as a theory, just because it is radical or controversial, doesnt have a natural right to be treated specially;
and the burden of proof falls on those making the claim.

It is important to keep several things in mind when talking about creationism. There was a time, some 150 years ago, when Creationism was the best scientific explanation we had for the origin and diversity of life we see on Earth today. Darwin himself aknowledged the careful thinking and clear writing of Paley. Creationsm, or rather Special Creation, was rightly dethroned when a better explanation came along - evolution via natural selection. But the contribution of religion to science, and the role in the origin of modern science played by religious people cannot be simply ignored and treated as if it didn't exist.

Present day Creationism is something quite different - the leaders of that movement, and its thinly disguised step-child, Intelligent Design, know that the nonsense that they spout is untrue; the've been shown to be wrong so many times that it wearies those of us who have to enage them. However, they have their own agendas for continuing to lie and misrepresent the nature of science, and especially of evolution.

Rich

To both of you, welcome to the forum. Creationism is not about what's right or about what is our reality, but about fundamentalist control of people.

I have a friend who is a creationist. Arguing with the man is pointless, he just can't accept that he evolved from a lower form if life, as if human life is more important than any other life forms. I guess being Gods chosen makes him feel special in some way. Anyway I think all creationist are in extreme denial and would rather beat the rest of us into submission than accept the truth.

All in all, a creationist viewpoint isn't one that is naturally arrived at by observation, that creationism requires the inference drawn before observation and can only be substantiated by cherrypicking evidence. Most people support it only beacause of religious support for it coupled with very little knowledge of actual biology.

That's it in a nutshell. Belief in Creationism has nothing to do with Science and everything to do with Religion.


In closing, I would also like to disagree with teach the controversy...

There's no scientific controversy to teach. The science is completely settled in favour of evolution and has been for over 100 years.

There's no scientific controversy to teach. The science is completely settled in favour of evolution and has been for over 100 years.

Of course not. I was using it as the primary name under which they try to introduce it into schools.

whats wrong with creation-ism?. its based on myths not provable science.
mutation and environment are the 2 main drivers of diversity. if the mutation is beneficial to survival in the environment then that mutation will spread in breading.

creation-ism is based what? a few words written by men 1000's of years ago who in turn claimed they heard a message from a mythical being, they called god... they then used this to set themselves apart from the masses and used it to control them.
i suppose if they had been given lithium the bible would probably be a much more readable.
organized religion has little to do with god, and a lot to do with controlling the masses so anarchy does not reign. and the guys that spout creationism are basically saying ignore empirical proof and believe what "WE" tell you.

if you believe in god, then great for you. thats your personal choice. but don't let any1 tell you how to believe.

We were once told that the Earth was the center of the universe and the sun revolves around the Earth as well. As time went by we studied more and used scientific tests to determine what was fact or fiction. As with any theory as Creationism it had its moment in history until it too was proven incorrect and the evolution was made the scientific fact that made how humans came to be was accepted.

What was before the big bang?

Please don't say nothing. How could there be nothing?

If you say gasses. I'll say what about before that. How did it start?

What if nothingness became self aware and created everything to experience, and we are all just split personalities. What if there is a space particle unknown to us that can contain thoughts.

What was in space before the big bang? Or before your answer?

What was before the big bang?

Please don't say nothing. How could there be nothing?

If you say gasses. I'll say what about before that. How did it start?

What if nothingness became self aware and created everything to experience, and we are all just split personalities. What if there is a space particle unknown to us that can contain thoughts.

What was in space before the big bang? Or before your answer?

I would bet whatever was before the big bang is still there but currently unknown because we haven't advanced enough to detect it and perhaps we never will know.

What was before the big bang?

Nothing.


Please don't say nothing. How could there be nothing?

Because in quantum mechanics when you have nothing you always have something.


What if nothingness became self aware and created everything to experience, and we are all just split personalities. What if there is a space particle unknown to us that can contain thoughts.

Wait. So you're allowed to posit nothing but we aren't? Talk about a special pleading fallacy, good thing I'm didn't listen to you.


What was in space before the big bang?

What space? The big bang was the expansion of space.

What was before the big bang?

We're not sure yet, but there are plenty of ideas out there. One idea is that our universe is just one "bubble" in a multiverse.


Please don't say nothing. How could there be nothing?

Why should there be something?


If you say gasses. I'll say what about before that. How did it start?

There weren't any gases. The big bang was far too hot to allow atoms to form, let alone gases.


What if nothingness became self aware and created everything to experience, and we are all just split personalities. What if there is a space particle unknown to us that can contain thoughts.

What if my dog could grow wings and fly to the moon?

Creationism is not about what's right or about what is our reality, but about fundamentalist control of people.

Prove it. :o



I have a friend who is a creationist. Arguing with the man is pointless, he just can't accept that he evolved from a lower form if life,

Not accepting something that is forced upon oneself is, indeed, a sign of lower intelligence, yes.



as if human life is more important than any other life forms.

As if you yourself don't believe that human life is more important than any other life forms.



I guess being Gods chosen makes him feel special in some way. Anyway I think all creationist are in extreme denial and would rather beat the rest of us into submission than accept the truth.

I guess believing you are nature's chosen makes you feel special in some way. Anyway I think all atheists are in extreme denial and would rather beat the rest of us into submission than accept the truth.

What was before the big bang?

Please don't say nothing. How could there be nothing?

If you say gasses. I'll say what about before that. How did it start?

What if nothingness became self aware and created everything to experience, and we are all just split personalities. What if there is a space particle unknown to us that can contain thoughts.

What was in space before the big bang? Or before your answer?

Just because we have not as yet deduced that answer doesn't mean that one day we won't. That's why humans keep trying to explore and theorize about things they don't understand. They try to make sense of things that are today unknown so that one day we will be able to know what the answers are.

Cosmictraveller - Just because we have not as yet deduced that answer doesn't mean that one day we won't.

@ Cosmictraveller,

Exactly. It does not mean that one day we won't.

I was expanding upon a very real scientific concern when we address pre-big bang, and I admit there was some funny and original answers.

However; what if all god did was create matter. What if he created all the known elements and just blasted them into space and waited.

What if the universe became conscious, and it just sat there century after century if indeed there was time? What if matter was simply the result of boredom.

If God existed. (for these questions pretend there is a god).

- For god to exist then there must be something invisible to us that connects everything. True?

- What if we lived in a "field" of consciousness that dwells within this "invisible" substance.

- What if energy and matter and everything was also conscious.

- What if Consciousness in physics was more according to Wolf views, and it really does take an observer to cause wave collapse.

If the above possibilities were indeed what god is, then couldn't creation just be the formation of atoms into the correct elements we needed for evolution.

I believe in evolution. I do not believe in bible stories that were written by man despite the claimed inspirations.

I think there is something invisible to us that permeates the universe that is conscious. I also think mankind has mental powers that can influence our reality using this "substance". If a prayer saves a life, could that be considered god influencing evolution, especially if that person goes onward to have children.

Does god have to be all fire and brimstone with pearly gates, or could he just be some dude trying to make the universe less boring by creating matter.

How can we argue against creationism, if all god did was create evolution? There really is no argument against that. If you think of one I will respond with.......

Cosmictraveller/Kwhilborn - Just because we have not as yet deduced that answer doesn't mean that one day we won't.

I would say this argument should be in religion until this post.

However; what if all god did was create matter. What if he created all the known elements and just blasted them into space and waited.

As yet scientists haven't found any single fact, evidence or proof that there is a "god" that controls everything and everyone. Since science has been seeking what makes the universe work they have not been able to find "god". Although many "believe" there is a "god" no one can ever prove that it is real except for their "faith" that it does. To just say that this "god" created everything would be a very bad way to try to seek out the truth about such a supernatural being capable of doing such things as is claimed. If we thought that "god" made diseases to kill people with then why study ways to cure those diseases? If "god" made broken bones why then should we fix them since that was the will of "god"? To just shrug off what science has developed and let "god" take control would bring about many undo problems.

What was before the big bang?

Please don't say nothing. How could there be nothing?

Nothing. How could there not be?

@ cosmictraveller,

cosmic - If we thought that "god" made diseases to kill people with then why study ways to cure those diseases? If "god" made broken bones why then should we fix them since that was the will of "god"?

I said what if all god did was provide the universe building blocks.

Wow! You really paint god as like some sort of supernatural being with omnipotent powers. I suppose your god wears a cape as well and leaps tall buildings.

What if god created matter/atoms fooled around with the electrons a bit to create the periodic table and then let nature take its course.

If you break your leg its because you probably didn't look where you were going, and likely deserve it. It's not like god can shove you under the bus.

I do believe there is a god, but prefer to think of god as "The Universe". All that is plus a bit more.

Do not confuse the belief in god as belief in religion, because if you start quoting from the stupid bible I will call you a bible thumper.

as far as finding something that shows that the space around us is alive and conscious....

Cosmictraveller/Kwhilborn - Just because we have not as yet deduced that answer doesn't mean that one day we won't.

I think that every man and every object in the universe is connected somehow, and would love to know how. I also think man has the power to create and perform miracles. Your life unfolds in front of you bsed upon expectations. Nothing more.

That's deism, and it doesn't require worship and has no implications as a guide to one's life. It's practically atheism.

@kwhilborn --


If the above possibilities were indeed what god is, then couldn't creation just be the formation of atoms into the correct elements we needed for evolution.

Wait, the creation of atoms....you mean the fusion that happens in stars every day without any sort of supernatural anything needed? Yeah, I'm fairly sure that's not a necessary explanation.


What if god created matter/atoms fooled around with the electrons a bit to create the periodic table and then let nature take its course.

Such a god would be entirely irrelevant to us.

@kwhilborn --



Wait, the creation of atoms....you mean the fusion that happens in stars every day without any sort of supernatural anything needed? Yeah, I'm fairly sure that's not a necessary explanation.



Such a god would be entirely irrelevant to us.I watched a video of Stephen Hawling "Did God create the Universe?" Left me feeling, in the end what is relevant to us? :)

@Rob --

Well the fact that we're interacting on some level means that we are relevant in some way to each other.

@Rob --

Well the fact that we're interacting on some level means that we are relevant in some way to each other.Do you find me annoying? I have told you what I am trying to achieve, but I don't want you just to rubbish me, so that is why I hold back from telling you too much.
It would be like me saying "you never had any NDEs". Some personal experiences are hard to explain and we don't like others just disgarding them.:)

@Rob --

I'm not rubbishing you, I was being serious. We find relevance where things interact with us, hence why a god who just wound up the universe, as Kwhilborn suggested, would be irrelevant to us. We wouldn't interact at all.

The following YouTube link is very good. I'm going to forward it to my creationist friend ( But a closed mind will find a way to stay closed ).:D

Top Ten Creationist Arguments (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SSxgnu3Hww8)

What if he created all the known elements and just blasted them into space and waited.

We know he didnt do that - stellar nucleosynthesis did.



- For god to exist then there must be something invisible to us that connects everything. True?.

Yes, but it need not be mystical, it would be a force field like gravity if it exists at all.


@ Cosmictraveller,
What if he created all the known elements and just blasted them into space and waited.

What if the universe became conscious, and it just sat there century after century if indeed there was time? What if matter was simply the result of boredom.

If God existed. - What if Consciousness in physics was more according to Wolf views, and it really does take an observer to cause wave collapse.

We know what causes the collapse, its an interaction, any interaction will do. No consciousness needed.


I think there is something invisible to us that permeates the universe that is conscious. I also think mankind has mental powers that can influence our reality using this "substance". If a prayer saves a life, could that be considered god influencing evolution, especially if that person goes onward to have children.


Prayer overwhelmingly doesnt have any effect beyound by placebo and behavorial changes. So, it would be the person, rather than god influencing evolution. And many more lives are not saved by prayer than are saved. So it will get removed from the gene pool even if it was real.

What was before the big bang? Please don't say nothing. How could there be nothing?


Please don't say something. How could there be something?

Since time itself begins in the Big Bang, it is problematic to ask what came before.

In the beginning there was no beginning because there was no time. There was no space. There was singularity. It is timeless, meaning eternal. It is virtual, meaning it lies unreachable beyond the event horizon.



What was before the big bang? How did it start?


There is no "how" in the singularity. And there is no "before" or "start" because it is eternal.



What was before the big bang?


There is no "before" in the singularity because it is eternal.



What if nothingness became self aware and created everything to experience, and we are all just split personalities. What if there is a space particle unknown to us that can contain thoughts.


What if there is a timeless spaceless singularity which is virtual and eternal and time is the illusion of sentience.



What was in space before the big bang? Or before your answer?


There is no space in the singularity. There is no "before" either, since the singularity is eternal.

The arguments still don't seem to gel with me. There was No space or time prior to the Big Bang. But they say the Big Bang is possible because from time to time virtual particles eventuate in space, but there was no space! and there was no time. So what comes first space or time or the virtual particle singularity?

if th big bang is the beginning of the universe then space would come into existence only after after its birth. there was nothing b4 as our universe didnt exist. the universe had to start in 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 dimensions. if string theory is correct and there are more dimensions hidden from us then its likely the 4 dimensions we see will only gives use a limited amount of information, so until we find the other dimensions we cannot get the whole picture. the problem is these dimensions seem to be smaller than the smallest of particles and may in fact be the reason matter exists in the 4 we know.

personally i like the elegance of the membrane theory.
2 membranes exist out side of our universe. ripples in these membranes caused the 2 to nearly touch or actually touch and at which point there was an arc of energy between the two creating our universe in the process. the beauty of this theory is that universes get created over and over. it also helps explain gravity and why it seem's to be influencing matter towards a specific area at the edge of space, a point where gravity seems stronger. this point in space may well be the closest point to the membrane so gravity is marginally higher. when i say pulled towards i mean have a tendency to move towards. like if you take a pool table and lift 1 corner by putting a bar mat under it. that corner represents a point in space where there is less gravity. now you make your break and because the table is ever so slightly uneven more of the balls will gather at the farthest point away from the corner that was lifted. its this unevenness of the universe that seems to show matter is moving like the balls to the point of greatest gravity. but this point seems to be outside of out universe. there does seem to be proof of this with the latest scans of the cosmic background radiation left over by the big bang. where 1 area of the image seems to be much denser with matter than it should be.

membrane

Does this theory have any scientific backup like some papers etc? I would like to read it.

The following YouTube link is very good. I'm going to forward it to my creationist friend ( But a closed mind will find a way to stay closed ).:D

Top Ten Creationist Arguments (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SSxgnu3Hww8)

Speaking of closed minds, this one may interest you:

Open Mindedness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI)