If Aliens are coming to our planet, why don't they just land in the middle of a city like Brussels, next to the European parlement while it is in session and make contact to us ?

I'm afraid that is about what it will take to actually convince stubborn critics like me... Now I'm sure there are lot's of reasons you all can think of so, let me have them, make me doubt !

I agree with Plato, this Alien thing has gotten out of hand. Aliens are not here and haven't came here any time lately. I say this because they would have left some EVIDENCE for cryin' out loud!

Oh sure, you say people see UFO's, just because you see something in the sky you can't explain doesn't mean it is a freakin' alien spaceship.

Frankly, I don't see why we litter a great site like exosci.com with this stupid stuff about ET!



------------------
We live, we die, WHO CARES!
-Double Overdrive

Plato,

Turn this argument around for a minute. If you were travelling to a distant planet to investigate, would you set your craft down in the center of town at high noon? Don't you think this was a strategic blunder? Or would you reason that you must do this for the benefit of all the little alien children who watch their own ET movies and dream of humans who will one day show themselves in public, and who will confirm their suspicions that there are aliens out there in the universe.

Think man. If a creature is capable of space flight, it must also have a good defense mechanism, and exposing itself to potentially hostile planetary inhabitants may be a high risk - at least for the first close encounter.

Better to wait for the politicos to get involved.

This is not to say that aliens exist or do not exist, but merely that you need not see one double-parked in New York to prove the point. Do you fail to believe that it rains outside your house because you are never home to witness it? Or could you determine that it rains by simply examining the grass which grows as a result of that rain?

There is more to observation than the sense of sight.

One more thing:

They probably would not set down in a place like Brussels at first, because they would be afraid that they would get sprayed by the pissing boy (or whatever that fountain is called), and also, that would mean that they would have to eat their french fries with mayonnaise (no offense to the Belgians, just the way things are).

Skepticus!!!!!!!!! hey, man :)

Good to see you back at the site...and
great response!!!

Since aliens haven't been spotten in Brussels it is safe to say that aliens don't want to make a big scene. I was just wondering why those damn aliens hafta be so sneaky. I thought I saw one in my underpants last night...

Or did I see one while I was shopping at Wal-mart? Oh, nevermind, that was just someone dressed up as that obi-wan-kanobie guy...

(Yeah it makes alot of sense to do what our aliens are doing.)

On a more serious note: It would be likely that aliens would try to find our learder (as plato inclined). If any of you thought this subject out, you would find that it would be more likely for an alien race to contact us in some way. I sure as hell would hate to go to an alien world and go sneaking around...



------------------
We live, we die, WHO CARES!
-Double Overdrive

Ok Double Overdrive... Question:
Have you even read up on this? Because
there is much more to this than what you
are assuming...

"Take Me To Your Leader"

This is a good point. Would the aliens seek out the leader of a civilization? I don't necessarily agree. Again, use the reverse scenario and ponder - would you seek out an alien leader, one who might have it in his/her/its mind to eradicate you simply because you were an alien to that planet? Or maybe that leader would like to imprison or control you as some bio-weapon.

I think the real approach would be as the aliens are allegedly using on Earth. Namely - try to infiltrate the minds of the normal people. Try to get to individuals and affect them. This was already tried by countries on our very own planet. Remember Communism? Control the mind and the body will follow?

Cheers,

Hypnoticus.

Whatever Skepticus, I don't really care... This all seems kinda foolish to me. Why are we even afraid if an alien will present itself or sneak around?

------------------
We live, we die, WHO CARES!
-Double Overdrive

Skepticus,

you seem to go out from the notion that the Aliens who are visiting us are for the first time encountering an other spiecies. I mean, if you have two different intelligent species then you might as well have a billion of them (the universe is large enough). Wouldn't they know every possible way a new race would react when where they introduced to an other intelligent species ?

And if we are dealing with freshmen in the interstellar travel business woudn't they be just delighted in having discovered that they to aren't alone ? How long by the way have these sightings been going on ? It's not as if they just arrived yesterday.

This gets me to an other point. Why is it that ufo's go hand in hand with the invention of flight ? Was that some trigger that opened up a near by wormhole or something where they come pouring through ?

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Good arguments, but you are also assuming that they would even think like us.

Bev :)

We are capable of thinking - and indeed conversing - like you. Same goes for looking like you. You are not alone.

You have us.

Oh no.... It's the alien!

Bev :)

ChucklesA,

a personal question if you don't mind. First there was an alien Chuckles who was writing to this board. Was that just a spelling mistake or do you have a brother or sister or clone or whatever walking around ?

I guess what I'm saying is, is there a ChucklesB as well ? ;)

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

To believe in Aliens visiting us I don't need a first hand experience. I haven't been on the moon either but that doesn't mean I don't believe man has set foot on the moon.

Any way, and I think believers in Aliens have to agree on this, it's not like humanity (and I mean every layer of society in every country) is dealing with aliens. Why is that, given the time that they supposedly are observing us ?

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Plato, sorry my brain is kinda running slow this morning.

Are you saying that some countries do not have to deal with the alien problem because it doesn't exist in their country or are you saying that it exist but only at certain levels in their society?

(I'm not sure if I have made any sense :))

Bev :o

Plato,

In regards to comments about aliens out there who might know about other civilizations you write, "Wouldn't they know every possible way a new race would react when where they introduced to an other intelligent species ?"

How do you figure this? Considering the fact that people on this planet do not know how to act around other humans in other countries cities, or even neighborhoods in the same city? Do you understand all the social mores of a tribe in Africa or South America just because they are humans too? Is a handshake acceptable social contact for all humans in all communities? How can we expect that a species from across the galaxy or universe will "know" every little nuance of the species on the planet they are visiting? I don't know, unless they had some intergalactic travel guide with them.

Would the aliens be delighted to learn they were not alone? Well, maybe so, but I doubt they would be so excited that they would plop down in front of the White House, pop out of their ship, and say, "Here we are Earthlings!" as Hollywood would like us to believe. More likely, they would understand the importance of stealth, and the importance of observation from a distance. Also, assuming they have the technical ability to get to our planet, they could remain obscured for a significant period of time. They should also have the ability to witness much of what goes on on this planet. This means they could view crime, murder, war, torture, suffering just like we do on "Current Affair", albeit with the aid of video.

Now, if you went to a planet and hung in orbit for a while, and watched the denizens of the planet whack each other to death or shoot each other on the streets each day, would you still be eager to run up and shake hands with those in control? Or might you be inclined to carefully select who you made contact with?

I don't think that the aliens are out there cruising the galaxy for sentient beings, and if they are, they certainly won't find them on Earth unless they really look hard. Damn, what do we talk about when we see the posts regarding aliens on this board and others? Most people talk about the greys in a plot to take over the world (with the help of our own governments?) Next it will be jellyfish that are in a conspiracy to rule the seas. The point is that we don't live in Utopia, and neither do the aliens, and I don't think that is what they are looking for.

Your comments about flight and wormholes are beyond me. I am not sure what you are talking about. Are you suggesting that aliens appeared from a wormhole and somehow helped us with this idea of flight? I doubt that we should give them this credit, since the idea of flight has been implanted in our brains much earlier. All primitive man had to do was look at a bird, and he could grok the concept of flight. We don't need to lay that one on the aliens.

Skepticus and Bev,

I'm sorry, that last mail was kind of obscure even to myself when I read it again.
First of all, regarding flight I was trying to argue that people then began to make a mental link with ufos when they saw things they couldn't understand. Kind of like the ancients thought it was Zeus slinging the lightingbolts. By doing this they tried to give the unexplicable a face and by doing that, somehow gain controll over it.

The other post I somewhat clumsily (it was the end of a tiresome day at work) said that there is no major interaction going on between aliens and us. All we have are sitings of individuals or small groups of people which have never been confirmed, I'm sorry to say. I would like to admit though that some of these sightings indeed constitute unexplainable events. Science has never claimed it absolutely understands everything the universe can throw at us, quite the contrary. But in stead of admitting that we just can't explain it, people choose to make up stories around it because we just can't stand the fact that unknown things are happening. That is what makes people so afraid all the time : fear of the unknown.
I just love all that unknown stuff, it makes the universe all the more charming and intreaging...
Now, it is ok to make theories about those unknown things otherwise there wouldn't be any progress in science what so ever. But theory always have to be checked with the harsh reality.

About alien anthropologist and how they would look at mankind. I think you are a bit hard on us humans, Skepticus. Yes we do have wars, we have crime in our cities, we poison our environment and so on, but that is just summing up all the bad qualities man has. If you take a guy from the street and follow him all his life, how many percent of it would he be fighting ? He might have a grudge against someone and not show it but at least he stays civil about it. I thing on a whole the human animal isn't agressive at all. It poisons his nest yes but so does any other animal, only we have the ability to do it on a larger scale.
The alien exobiologist will have seen this behavior on countless other planets. Besides if his science has evolved that far that he can cross the stars then it won't only be their hard sciences who are that far evolved. You really underestimate your aliens if you think they wouldn't know exactly how to handle a primitive civilisation like ours.

Now, let's suppose it was the other way around, at the time that we will have invented a way to go to the stars, have far do you think our psychological research will be ? Or biology ? Or linguistics ? Or computerscience ?

Al these alians who are visiting us are only advanced to us in a few disciplines : physics and engineering. They certainly are nowhere in the field of medicine, just look at the horrible stories of the abducties.
What is the reason for this ? Are they really this primitive in one way and advanced in an other or is it just us that don't have enough imagination to really come up with dazzling stories about them ?

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Plato...
oh yes..it is just "us"..the ones who
blindly believe in aliens and ufo's...
funny how some of us believe in them
and not god... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
funny how you know that no one on this
earth has experienced anything of the like..
damn, you get around, man... Funny..that
the ones that do come out of the closet
and tell the things that have happened to
them are ALLLLLLLL making this shit up...
thank you Plato for making things clear
with all your wisdom..and all your experience
in this matter... I now see the light!!!!!!!

First off, all hail PLato! Itis about time someone approached this whole debate with a rational, calm, non-confrontational, open mind. :)Second,I would like to point out something here.

Many ufologists and such maintain that aliens have been here since the time of the pyramids (and before). Just look at the Evidence In The Pyramids forum.

Yet you maintain that they are observing our culture still. Does it really take 5,000+ years?

------------------
________________
Corp.Hudson
Search for the
truth, not your
truth
________________

Aliens won't let this earth see their existance because we have traits like anger, rage and jealousy and these traits would carry, like the disease they are.
Someone with a cold put into a room with other people would pass on his/her bacteria.
Bit like us really. Stick a human in a peaceful colony and it'll show it's traits sooner or later.
We aint got much credit, an' om givin' non.

Greetings,

Plato:

Although I agree with you that the vast majority of these sightings and other UFO phenomena are not real, I still think that there are myriad reasons why an advanced or semi-advanced alien culture would want to be very careful about making contact with us.

Maybe in the course of these aliens' cultural development, wars were fought over energy sources or power and control. Maybe they feel that simply revealing themselves at the wrong time might induce the same kind of problem with us.

Or maybe they are not so advanced and simply made some discoveries in insterstellar propulsion and are afraid of what we might do with their technology.

Or maybe they do not think like us at all, it is difficult to understand an alien mind.

ChucklesA:

Maybe you should shed some light on the subject for us. Why would an alien species not make contact and reveal themselves if they are and have been here?

Plato,
It could be as simple as:

Alien code of conduct when discovering a new inhabited planet:
Rule 1. Observe only.
n.b. DO NOT INTERFERE WITH THEIR EVOLUTION

Mind you, we'd need a few rules for each species that is visiting us, like:

Grey alien code of conduct:
Rule 1. Find out how we tick.
e.g. take samples, experiment, study, conduct tests, poke, jab, track, implant, slice, cut, abuse..probe..whoooaaa!!!...(just don't let them know your doing this, they might get upset! It might pay to wipe their memory, because we don't want to incite them now, do we?)
Regards,
Dave

Flash, cool down man ! I'm not telling you made everything up, you saw what you saw. All I'm saying is that if you would have lived two hundred years ago, you might have thought you saw angels coming from the sky (oh, oh, mayby I shouldn't have said that... Lori, easy now !)
That is just a natural reation of trying to controll the unknown. We do the same thing with death and other 'supernatural' things. What I would like you to admit though is that you are stating your personal opinion about these things because they are very personal experiences. If your explanation make sense to you, fine but as long as I haven't had the same experience I just can't make a judgement now can I ? This is the difference between personal theories and scientific theories. The first ones try to explain the universe as experienced by one brain, the other tries to make general statements about this universe as it is percieved by every possible observer.

ah, General, how would you say diseases like anger and jalousy get spread ? Just by watching us ? If that is the case, then it is already to late for the aliens. Now that might be a good explanation for the lack of aliens : they came, they saw, they exterminated themselves.

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Plato,
Ok... sorry about that.
I understand that you have not experienced
these things...I know where you are coming from. Do you think I just happened to bite..
and was lured in? Flash used to be a big
skeptic of things like this... that is all
I have to say..

In response to the post about the aliens having visited this planet since the time of the pyramids, but wondering why they would still be here for 5000 years:

I wonder why we must place a limit on this "visiting time". Suppose aliens have been here since the age of pyramids, why would it be difficult to accept that they would still be here? For one thing, we do not know their purpose, nor where they came from, and it is possible that they have some extended reason for just hanging out on the Nile or now at Area 51 (or wherever they are these days). We don't even know if they were around prior to the pyramids, although anything is possible.

Plato, your assumptions are worth considering, but I also speculate on the notion of what we would do if we suddenly developed a warp drive which enabled us to visit a distant star system, set down on a new planet and found some civilization equivalent to our cavemen of the past. Would we be in such a hurry to sit down and sing songs with them around their campfires? Or would be engage in some extended observation period (as Dave has suggested)? If we followed scientific protocol, I suppose we would be less inclined to make physical contact with them.

Yeah, but if I were going to a planet with alien life, I wouldn't sit there for 5,000 years. I would want to go down there and meet them...

Referring to Dave's protocols:

Those aliens are interfering in our evolution just by being here. Can't you tell how much of a stir they have made in our culture. Maybe good for religion, maybe not. Everything around us interfers with our evolution, because evolution suits us to our enviroment (EVERYTHING pretty much refers to our enviroment).

So, the aliens (if any) would have some interaction, even if they just zip through our skies... They sure have gone through my mind alot when I try to contemplate the meaning of life. So those protocols of yours, Dave, need a little adjusting... :)



------------------
We live, we die, WHO CARES!
-Double Overdrive

DOD,
I don't know what their protocols are.....
but I would like to know, I was just having a guess.
I have heard a rumour that aliens don't have a sense of humour ( like us earthlings ) so if any of the posts seem to lack humourous understanding, let's give ém an anal probe and see if their one of us!!!
Regards,
Dave.

***

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited June 05, 1999).]

Skepticus:
I was referring to the fact that many people who argue the same points you are also believe that aliens have been here since the time of the ancient egyptians, mayans, romans, etc.

If that is the truth, then why would they have not revealed themselves by now? Do not use the argument that they are still studying our culture, because that culture is dynamic, and they would accomplish no more in 10,000 years then they would in 100.

------------------
________________
Corp.Hudson
Search for the
truth, not your
truth
________________

Our definition of time is very limited to OUR 3-dimensional world. Because of the existence of hyper-dimensional levels, our concept of time is probably irrelevant to those visitors from beyond.

Strange things are happening whether we can prove them or not. But we can not deny the existence of these things based on our level of inteligence.

What about seeing this "invasion" or whatever from a different angle, and that is...What is the BEST way to control humans? We seem to be looking for some physical interaction, or attack, or observation, or revelation. What if it is not physical most of the time? What if the physicality (is that a word? LOL!) is an illusion of sorts? What if they are accomplishing things THROUGH us most of the time, rather than with us?

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God loves you and so do I!

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 06, 1999).]

Heres the deal. Before coming up with fancy theories about aliens using mind control, and subliminally implanted messages on us, you have to do one thing. What is that thing? Glad you asked. Prove the existence of extra terrestrial life on earth.

You can't (at least not coherently) have theories about the motives and transportation methods of something you cannot prove the existence of. Period.


P.S.-Although it sounds like I do not, I do believe in E.T. visits of earth :)

I do have proof, Corporal. I have a friend who's being abducted. She told me so, and I believe her. How can you have physical evidence of mind control? What about all of the implants that they're pulling out of people lately? There are other physical manifestations, scars, and injuries. You can't just ignore people's testimonies; these people aren't crazy. Ok, maybe a few, but not most, and there are so many. But what about that lack of hard cold metal machinery and little green men? Good question...You're thinking that they are like us, only little and green. They are not like us; not at all.

Hello citizens.
It is amazing to see how many theories there are. We have theories on the lot really when you think about it, theories on evolution, theories on god, theories on aliens. Life's a total theory.
Patience, in time all shall be revealed.

Why would the aliens have not revealed themselves by now?

Good question. I question the whole notion of "aliens revealing themselves", and how it should be done to suit the humans on this planet.

We sit around saying, "well, the aliens don't exist because they haven't exposed themselves the way we say they should." This is funny to me, because we don't even know enough about our own species, and here we sit concluding (some of us anyway) that aliens do not exist because they don't do interviews on Oprah (actually, maybe they could help her with her ratings).
If the implants that people keep finding have any truth to them, then this would be a physical contact. I like to think this is akin to how we tag animals for our own study (whales, cows, etc.). Notice though, that we are not able to hear any protest in written or verbal form.

But what also about some mental manipulation? Consider that the aliens might not have the ability (or desire) to communicate with us on our own terms (like speaking to us using a recognized language). Lori brought up an interesting point which is: why must all alien manifestations be physical? Why not entertain the idea of some mental influence or communication by the aliens? Sure. Why indeed. Again, this relates back to how we think we understand any alien presence, and assumes we have the knowledge or ability to explain their complete motive for visiting us. For all we know, they could be zapping us with some radiation from outside the ozone layer, and we would never know it. If this sounds preposterous, just think of all the chemical garbage we are exposed to by our own corporations and government while we numbingly go about our daily routines.

Corp Hudson, why must one prove the existence of aliens before coming up with theories of why they are here? Is this how science treats black holes? Or wormholes? Or anything else it cannot physically see? Look at how much speculation goes on about the universe. Do we have the whole universe nailed down, so we can explain it in science class? Or do we engage in conjecture and participate in hypothetical scenarios in order to try to learn more about the cosmos?

I do not agree with your suggestion on how to approach the subject at hand (or any other for that matter). If the ancient mariners, who at one time believed the world was flat, said, "we will not set sail until we have established that the world is or is not flat", then it would be a smaller global village than at present. There is nothing wrong with discussing or trying to develop a theory on a subject where there is controversial physical proof. Not every discussion forum is a courtroom, where we must simply give the facts.



[This message has been edited by Skepticus (edited June 07, 1999).]

Hubba, hubba!!

You know, this debate would be a lot easier if we knew what their agenda was. Their agenda would determine their presentation. It could vary greatly. I think that it's pretty clear that this planet is approaching the Millenium; not the year 2000, but...a spiritual enlightenment. They are either here to help, or here to distract us from what is really going on. I tend to think it is the latter. What are the other possible scenarios, and how do they fit into "the schedule"?

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 07, 1999).]

Haven't you guys watched any Star Trek? :D

It's the prime directive's what it is, I tell ya.

So actually, they are out there cloacked on orbit and totally undetectable. What we are getting distracted with are some natural phenomena we can't explain. So, Dave, you had it all along...

Oh yeah, one more thing. Lori:
Why are their only two choices helping us or distracting us? Can't they just observe? Or maybe Earth is only a transit point on some interstellar highway, and all we are seeing are some of their exhausts? :) Read some sci-fi, it'll help you get out of this mental lockup. The possibilities are actually endless!!

Like, maybe, they are actually not even aware of planet Earth, exist in alternate dimensions at about the same global coordinates, and eventually get strange things in *their* sky that kinda look like airplanes, only they don't know that?

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited June 07, 1999).]

No One Is Arguing That Aliens Do Not Exist Because We Have Not Seen Them. I am arguing that you cannot have a discussion about their propulsion methods, or the motives behind their actions. Not a single one of you could have an intelligent, informed discussion on the motives or transportation methods of our own species. SO how can you have one about aliens? I have to go to bed, early football tommorow.

Now this is what i call a good debate..

First of all to "Skepticus" that pissing man you mentioned is located in Oslo, Norway. He is called "Sinnataggen" and just 100 miles north of it at a place called the horseshoe, which is a mountanous "meadow" so to speak. there are a lot of sightings, and strange things happening. but to the things i was thinking.

Why wouldn't aliens interact with us? I remember years back when an oil tanker crashed outside the UK on a reef, the oil almost wiped out all living things there. But when a Norwegian TV crew in a chopper went by, they saw a "green ball of light" in the sea, sucking up all the oil around it.
This was also showed on Nor national TV.
Someone explain that to me, but to me it looks like they ARE here, and watching our every move.

It would make sence that they didnt land on the WH lawn and say " Hey guys" i would believe since humans in nature is afraid of the unknown, we would have military trying to blow the thing up, and take the beings as prisoners in the sake of technology.

I somewhat believe in Lori ( thats my first btw) when she says that the interaction mostly is on the mental level, maybe without us knowing it.. I come to think of it. Since many of us are believing in E.T's maybe they woke us up? Just a thought, but i do not believe that they are evil in nature, why didnt they come down here 200 years ago when there were no nukes and pollution, and took over what then could have been a paradise.

just my $0.2 worth


------------------
I doubt, then i might be

Mental lock-up...pah-leaze. I should have specified that I was interested in "reasonable" possibilities. And you are looking to the imaginations of sci-fi writers, and ignoring the true testimony of hundreds of thousands of people around the world? Do I have that right? Isn't it rather obvious that they are NOT just observing? I have a feeling that as "advanced" as they are, and if they just wanted to observe, we wouldn't be made aware of it. People are experiencing all kinds of freaky shit. Haven't you read anything regarding alien contact or abductions? Read some of these testamonials. I just can't believe that you are willing to blatently ignore them. You know, there are people who are locked up, or on serious medications for mental problems, and the people that are testifying to this stuff, are not those people. Does that mean anything to you?

------------------
God loves you and so do I!

First of all let's stop thinking that Aliens are afraid of us. That is just an other illusion of us that we could harm those guys while they are cruising the vast distances between the stars, their military power must be equally devolopped. Besides what if the land with a billion ships at the same time, would there be a lot of opposition do you think ?

About the mental presence and controll that they would have. This is not consistent with the "observations" that they are physical beings and fly physical sausers. Why would they use those crude material spaceships if they can project their mind where ever they want and do what ever they want with it ? Then they might as well stay home and come here in spirit !

Skepticus i would appreaciate if you would stop raising so many smokescrean around them, you keep talking like they are the mythical demons that Lori is talking about while you want to proof that it are beings from an other planet. As strange as they may be, they still live in the same universe as we are or they certainly have to if they want to abduct people who are living here ! So there are some things that we have in common ! If they are demons like Lori says then we have an entirly new discussion and I suggest we go and take it further in the Religion thread.

------------------
we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

H-Kon, thanks for your geography lesson, but the statue I was referring to is appropriately titled, "Mannekin Pis" or the pissing BOY, not man, and is located in Brussels, not in Norway - but good guess anyway - you get points for trying.

Plato, I would appreciate it if you would do two things:

1. Explain in more detail what you mean when you use the term "smokescreen" as it pertains to my comments on this topic.

2. Refrain from "requesting" that I curtail my views or opinions so that they are satisfactory to you. That is tantamount to saying that you would appreciate it if I conform to your idea of what an acceptable post is. This is an open board for debate, and last time I checked, open ideas/comments were still tolerated as long as they were not abusive.

And for the record, I have not taken the position that the aliens are demons - Lori deserves full credit for that concept.

My dear skepticus,

what a polite way of getting angry with me !
I most graciously apologise if I have offended you with my previous post.

To answer your first question :
I must say I get a little confused if on one side you want to make statements about the nature of the aliens who are supposed to be watching us and on the other side are to complex or alien to understand as you put it.

Of course you have your views but I don't think I really understand them, perhaps a little more elaboration is needed to clear this matter. :)

------------------
we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Lori:

Funny that you mention that all those 'normal' people are testifying to alien abductions. Just the other day I've been listening to a radio program where they were discussing the latest and greatest psychoactive drugs (like Prozac, Phen Phen, etc.) Seems there is solid evidence that a lot of those tend to induce psychosis and schizophrenia as 'common side-effects'. Could it possibly be that a lot of 'normal' people one day felt slightly depressed, went to their shrink and got a few Prozac pills, then got abducted the next day and went back to their shrink to confess it all?

It doesn't have to be medicine, there could be other things driving 'normal' people nuts. Remember the Columbine high school? Or how about all those family murder/suicide cases -- where a normal guy goes berserk all of a sudden? Or all those cases where mothers try to kill themselves together with their children?

I tend to view the human brain as a very unstable and carefully-balanced system. Put it out of balance even for a moment, and strange things will end up happening.

Given that, you can't ignore the sociological aspects of the phenomenon. In the good old days, it used to be witches, ghosts, demons -- those are all the things they used to know back then. Now, of course, we've all see something like X-Files or Independence Day -- so it's not very surprising that the same old phenomena are being cast by the modern brains using new actors. I personally think more reasonable to suggest that it's all in the mind -- unless there is some physical evidence to the contrary, that is. (Btw as for those 'implants': I don't know, could be the evidence I'm looking for, but could just as easily be some artifact of the human body we haven't formally discovered yet.)

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Plato,

Let me clarify - no, I am not angry with you, I simply stated point number two as a formality (another proviso didn't hurt anyone on this board) in the event you were somehow suggesting that I should follow a specific agenda herein. I didn't think you were, but I felt compelled to mention this for the sake of my own insanity.

I am actually much more interested in your response to point number one - which is where the action is on this topic. If you do need me to offer more information, I would be happy to accommodate you.

I'm afraid I have to fully agree with Boris on this topic. There is just to much about the human brain that we don't understand yet so that means, a indivudual or even a collective experience at one instance at one place just can't do for evidence ! We can't trust our own senses to give an objective account of a single occurance. The problem with these strange things is, is that they are strange (sounds like a good argument doesn't it ;) ). I mean that we don't have any bases of comparison with our normal sensations to measure it against.
About the implants, if they are real and can be investigated by several laboratories who would state that they are made from alloys that we don't know how to make then we have some proof. But I'm afraid if something like that will be done the results will get 'covered up' again if they seem to indicate nothing is wrong with it and we are back were we started.
Besides, why are these aliens so primitive to use implants ? As if they couldn't do anything biological that does the same thing like change a tooth without us noticing. Again this implant business is just to much the same as we do in our clinics to hold any truth about aliens. What is it with those alien guys ? Are they stupid morons who only figured how to cheat on just about every fundamental physical force we know and have every psychic ability we can think of, but on other fields they are as far as we are ?
Let's be honest here, all these things indicate that the aliens who are visiting us are as much real as the elves and spirits of the forest of our ancestors. At least they could do magic, have the aliens of today forgotten that ancient craft ?

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

I don't know....it seems to me that even if a person stepped forward and said that they had "solid" proof that the aliens are here, no one would believe them. What would be proof...the being itself?

The nature of a human is to "shut-down" the processing of information (by the brain) that causes an imbalance in ones emotional state (I think discovering that aliens really exist would fall into that catagory).

It's pretty obvious that we are not alone. What's not obvious is that the aliens are here (sometimes), and you really don't have to ask where... ;)

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...one mans MYTH is another mans MIGRAIN!

[This message has been edited by Sirius B (edited June 09, 1999).]

Dont pretend you are a psychologist or neurosugeon. You know nothing about the human brain, neither do I. Dont sit there and tell me the nature of the human brain is to shut down an blah blah blah. No offense meant, but thats bullshit.

And solid proof is something other then a doctored photo and some "doctor" explaining the warp drive mechanism is exactly like the one Scotty repaired in Star Trek episode #453

I know the evidence isnt that, but it is just about as credible

C.H.,
My level of education is not on "trial" here!
The topic (of this thread) is "where are the aliens"? We have no solid proof therefor, we can only guess. My guess is.....they are here on this planet (sometimes). Since I have chosen to believe this, I don't have to ask "where are they because THEY ARE RIGHT HERE.

If I said to you (C.H.) that I have solid proof, and then proceeded to let you see,hear,smell,and/or taste my proof chances are you "still" would not believe me (I mean really,...just take a look at your last post)! You have trouble believing that I might posses an education beyond an undergraduate level therefor, I am sure your brain would "refuse to work" if it were presented with solid proof that aliens were here on Earth.

By the way, next time you feel the "urge" to pre-judge a total stranger,....DON'T! :(

[This message has been edited by Sirius B (edited June 10, 1999).]

You summed it up perfectly. You choose to believe.

BTW I didnt mean to insult your intelligence. Just dont lecture me and everyone else on the bboard about how the human brain works, when not even neurosurgeons know how it does!


[This message has been edited by Corp.Hudson (edited June 11, 1999).]

Boris, really, you're grasping at straws here, don't you think? Blaming ALL of the UFO phenomena on prozac? Give me an f'ing break already! That is absolutely ridiculous! How many people do YOU know that have had some unexplained phenomenon happen to them? Were they just depressed? Or let me guess, you don't know any, right?

As for the question that has been raised regarding why the aliens would use such "primitive" mechanical hunks of metal to fly around in, when they obviously have powers that supercede and make them obsolete? That is an EXCELLENT f'ing question. It makes me think that it is nothing but a "movie". A Sci-Fi illusion with the intent to deceive in some way. What other options are there?

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God loves you and so do I!

C.H.,

I don't remember lecturing "you"! As a matter of fact, that post was not written with a "lecture" in mind (at all). The post was general and not directed at anyone...you really should remember that this board is "open" for anyone (and their opinions/ideas).

Be a bit more considerate (not to lecture you :o )of others when you choose to post a reply or an opinion!

Who wants to read (or visit) a board full of people who "trash" others? What is there to gain by doing this to other people...(people you don't even know)? :(

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...one mans MYTH is another mans MIGRAIN!

I just wanted to comment on that little part where one said something like" Why are they using such primitive implants, and not use a tooth or something" ( vague quote i know :-)

Lets say that the governments are too good at covering things up, and the aliens then implanting these things inside us, for us to find, the civilian pop that is.. to let us know that.. " Hey. were here"

I am not sure where i heard this from *oh no another myth* but have you other people here heard that they are using a metal kind that for us here on earth is unknown.. Hmm..

enough allready :-)

That is not reasonable, H-kon. Or they want us to know they are there, or they don't !
Otherwise we might as well go into the discussion that Paul McCartney has died in 1965 and the Beatles switched him for a look alike and then spend all their time leaving clues in their next albums for their fans to say 'Paul is dead'...

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Plato and H-kon,

As far as I know, scientists HAVE examined these implants that they have surgically removed from people, and they are made of a substance that IS UNKNOWN TO MAN. As to why would aliens implant these objects in people...like the spaceships...it's our perception that they are screwing with...it's a frickin' movie.

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God loves you and so do I!

LOL.. I have to laugh at your comparison Plato. but still that is my opinion ( not the McCartney story)
and what i believe is the proof of that is that they might be using what is an unknown substance.
Hell..i understand that the implants have a function. What it is, dont ask me, but as you Plato asked. Why didnt they put it somewhere else, hid it better.

You tell me...

These questions I'm asking are really because I don't know the answer to them, but ok I might also have an other purpose with them, that is trying to make you guys question your own believes about these things.

You must realise that when an observer gets a sensation, after comparing that sensation with previous sensations (let's call them conceptions) he begins to interprete to make it fit into a preformed picture that is already in the mind. For example if you look at the clouds, you see all kinds of shapes and also recognize a whole lot of them, where as the cloud really doesn't have any known shape at all. Same thing happens with astrology and so on.
Suppose a guy comes into a hospital with complains about headaches. After some X-rays, he gets operated and one finds a curious little metal thing under his skull. This will automatically trigger a whole set of interpretations who are fitted into the conceptions of the doctor, the nurses, the patient and anyone else who comes in contact with this very strange situation. How many different possiblities are there left to explain how it came there ? An infinite number because if you look at it mathematically the proplem has to many degrees of freedom to be determined. Next logical step is to examen the object and the patient psychologically. Suppose the patient, after some treatment, begins to recollect that he had an abduction and suppose the metal is determined to be of truely unknown origine. How many different possiblities are there now ? Still an infinite number but not in as many dimensions as before because there are some more boundery conditions. To have one single answer a problem must have as many boundery conditions as there are degrees of freedom. How many are there in this specific problem ? First you must determine what the problem is, do you want to know how the object came into the guy's head ? Do you want to know what kind of object it is ? Do you want to know why it was inside his head ? All different questions with different fase-spaces.
Lets take the first question, I am no brainsurgeon but I'm sure there are a whole number of ways something could end up into someones head so here I all ready must pass to how many degrees of freedom there are. What are our boundery conditions ? Well the fact that it is inside the head and the things that the doctors see during their examinition of the guy. Not really a well determined problem is it ? This makes it all the more dangerous to just go ahead and make your conclusions about things that aren't even part of the problem.

So I would just like to caution you people when you read something about these things before you form your conclusions always ask yourself is it already possible to form any conclusions at all ?

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Plato's got the point, and I'd just like to add to the punch a little.

First of all, "unknown elements" in implants?? We already know all elements up to 114, I believe (and those heavy ones are all highly toxic). So I'd imagine the elements are very known. What I have heard rather is that the 'implants' have an intricate, layered structure. However, that does not impress me since all biological structures are intricate and layered. Made of metal? Well, our bodies contain plenty of minerals, including metals. In fact, as I vaguely recall, the so-called 'implants' aren't made of alloyed metal, and don't even exhibit isotope levels inconsistent with Earth origin. Though there may be others I haven't read about that are metal, as Plato points out there are plenty of ways those 'implants' could get embedded in soft tissue. Though last time I heard, none were found in peoples' *brains*??

As for why the alien 'devices' sound so primitive? I've got three alternative explanations. First: there is beauty in simplicity. Perhaps a truly advanced technology is the one that leads to the most 'primitive' design. Alternative: we made them up -- therefore the alien technology is only on par with our own. Another alternative: we could be seeing just 'shadows' of sophisticated machines, the bulk of which is hidden from us in other dimensions. Of course, there may be other possibilities as well...

Another neurological hint at 'abduction' experiences. During sleep our bodies go into what's been appropriately called "sleep paralysis". That is, the entire motor system is massively inhibited -- especially during REM sleep. One can readily see the usefullness of such a biological device -- because when it malfunctions people end up thrashing about and sleepwalking. But it can malfunction in a different way as well: people can wake up still paralyzed. Unable to move, that is. Don't think I'm making this up; it's a clinical syndrome. The paralysis eventually vanishes, but it does take a few minutes. During which time, people typically are in a whole lot of panic (when they are truly awake). Or, they may be only partially awake, and their inability to move translates into a nightmare. Abduction, anyone? One other thing: during sleep another protective mechanism kicks in -- the transfer from short-term memory into long-term storage is inhibited. Makes sense, since our dreams do not -- and if we remembered them we'd be very confused. That's why you normally forget the dream, even if you vividly remembered it just two minutes ago. However, if the dream was particularly traumatic, or you were woken up right in the middle of it, you may retain it in long-term memory. Again, could this possibly hint at 'abductions'? One question I'd ask 'abductees': can they regularly remember their dreams? If they can, then something's wrong with their sleep regulatory mechanisms.

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I am; therefore I think.

First of all

I think Plato and Boris wrote some things that i am still thinking about( slow cpu)which i am going to TRY to address later.

But i wanted to comment on them both saying that i think those two guys are damn smart, and it is hard (for me) to give them a run for the money.

Good job guys :-)

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Using BeOS R4 with Netpositve 3.03d

Yea, you smart guys really have it all figured out. Abductees are really just sleep-deprived depressed people, and the unknown substances found implanted in people are really known substances, even though they're not. Whatever.

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God loves you and so do I!

STFU Lori. You know you are exaggerating and distorting what was said, so just STFU.

An interesting theory regarding a scientifically proven illness was presented. In no way did the author say it explained all abductions. Maybe if you opened your eyes you would see it is a viable explanation!

And you have yet to present any facts behind your allegedly unknown elements. So until you can, I choose to disagree with you.

Boris

Sleep Paralysis is all very well as a theory for the Alien abduction experience but in order to be a credible one it leaves much to be desired. You can't just pick the facts you want for a theory and leave the rest because they do not fit.

Before I go any further I would like to say that I really do not have any idea as to what is going on. However, I don't like the sound of this particular area and I'd quite like to have it explained to me as sleep paralysis or some other mental thing in a way that I could happily accept. The thought of some alien coming into my bedroom at night and taking me against my will to have anal probes and what ever else is not one I'm very confortable with. The trouble is I can't believe that sleep paralysis is the answer.

For a start this would be ignoring the fact that many abductees had their experience when they were not asleep at all. When you add to this other aspects, such as strange marks on the body and the weird fact that abductions of more than one person at once are not uncommon, it does tend to suggest that something else is going on here and not some dream state thing. Many abductees have actually been wide awake and seen a UFO before their abduction(Travis Walton to name a famous one). We need a theory which can explain all facets of this phemomena rather than just certain areas.

plato

according to you we shuold question every thing we believe we "know"

how could we really understand anything if all our conceptions are interpreted to fit these preformed pictures. Isn't that the way human thinking works?

I am curious if you think there is other life in the universe

Plato & Double O

If UFOs are actually the vehicles of ETs they seem to be making a pretty lousy job of hiding themselves. Either that or they don't care being seen.

Consider this, the Mexican UFO wave started on the day of the total eclipse in 1991. On that day most of the population of the Mexico City (the largest city in the world) was looking skywards to watch the event. A UFO was seen and videotaped from approximately 17 different locations. Anybody who has seen this footage would have to agree that it appears to show a silver metallic disk shaped craft. I have yet to hear anybody give a reasonable explanation as to what this object is, never mind some of the even more amazing videos to come out of Mexico since. First of all, even though this event gained mass media coverage in Mexico, it did not even merit a mention on our TV news or in my daily paper. Why not? This ongoing UFO wave in Mexico is the largest in recorded history with many sightings being of vast aerial fleets of objects. It seems to me that the vast majority of people outside Mexico are still not aware of this.

Last year (or year before) a similar event happened in America over Phoenix Arizona. This event was also videotaped by a number of people and has not yet been satisfactorily explained. The best the USAF came up with was flares. I've seen the video and it is truly impressive. I've personally never heard of flares that could hover at a constant altitude before.

I'd like to know if either of you are aware of these events or have seen any of the video tapes? I'd also love to know how you would explain them?





[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 21, 1999).]

Hi-
Would any of you go to work tomorrow if Aliens landed at the White House? Would we need oil for long after they landed? How will we incorporate their technology and culture into ours? What about all the numbnuts that Would panic? And the ones who are so seriously un-civillized as to riot and loot? While a lot of people ~believe~ that there is life OUT THERE. to be confronted with the FACT that they are HERE is another story. I know they're here- saw one of their ships a long time ago. To this day we have nothing that could do what that ship did. I hope they get tired of waiting for us to -get over it- and either land and let panic begin, or just go away. You can do your part by learning to control your impulse to react in fear. (ME TOO)
Peace ramonth

You were all discussing the so called alien implants issue earlier. I am able to fill in the grey areas here. The truth is that up to the end of 1998 seven such surgeries have been performed to recover such objects from people's bodies.

Boris quite rightly points out that none have been remove from people's brains. In the first two surgeries three objects were recovered, two from the toe of a female patient and one from the hand of a male. All three objects were covered with a dark shiny membrane which resisted being cut with a sharp, new surgical blade. Interestingly, both patients had reported that they felt pain in the areas on week prior to the surgery. Afterwards, when interviewed, they both independently reported a "new found feeling of freedom."

Another very interesting fact which became apparent was that the pathological reports were very strange. A large amount of nerve proprioceptors were found in the surrounding tissues. These are never found in the anatomical locations that the specimens were excised from. This is something that cannot be explained with any of the current medical knowledge. Also, there was a total lack of any inflamatory response to the presence of the objects.

The metalurgical tests were carried out by Los Alamos National Labs and the New Mexico Tech. Underneath the grey cladding it was found that one object contained a T shaped structure. One part of the T shape contained a core made of the hardest iron carbide which was magnetic. This core was covered with a complex cladding of eleven different elements. Its componemt part, which appears to fit into a cavity in a way that looks manufactured, contains a carbon core which was soft and magnetoconductive. The verticle piece also has a band of cystals which completely circles it. At least some scientific consultants are convinced that this object has been manufactured.

There were two other very mysterious findings during these and the other five surgeries caried out. In two cases, where small BB shaped greyish-white balls were discovered, pathologists reported Solar Elastosis in a small area of the skin directly above the objects. This means that the dermal layer of the skin had been severely exposed to ultraviolet radiation. Neither of the surgical candidates admitted to a history of overexposure to sunlight.

The other odd fact was that six of the seven objects recovered fluoresced under ultraviolet light. This also is not yet fully understood.

Whilst I agree that these results are not conclusive proof of alien implants, I'm sure that you would agree that they are indeed quite interesting.

I hope that clarifies things a bit.

[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 22, 1999).]

If aliens were to visit us here is how I think they would do it:

They would land on the backside of the Moon, or possibly a lot further away. Their landing would likely have occurred long ago.

They would send probes to all major objects of the solar system. On Earth, they would set up a network of highly sophisticated nanomachines. There would be trillions, maybe quadrillions, of them roaming the planet all smaller than the eye could see.
The nanomachines would be programmed to evade detection -- by moving out of the way of prying electron microscopes and by cleaning up destroyed nanomachines.

Aside from the usual -- photography, gravity maps, geology surveys, the first major survey would be biology. The aliens would catalog the genetic codes of every species of life on the planet from humans down to lowly viruses.
Using this they would form a picture of how our biology works. I doubt that aliens abductions would be necessary.

Then the aliens could learn our languages. It would be easy to listen to all five billion plus people speak. They could apply neural nets to determine our languages grammar, vocabulary and even slang.

Then the aliens could keep an eye on our technology, learn our history by reading our books or anything else they wanted.

They would know everything about us and we could not even know they existed until they decided to make appearence (or until we put up a nanomachine net like they do).

Nice try but the only reason you think they use nanomachines is because of the recent hype that these machines will be possible in the future to give us some real break through medical capabilities. So again you are taking present day (or near future) technology and applying it to the aliens.

Let's look in some very broad lines how alien technology could look like. First of all they will have a means to transport across the vast distences of the stars because that's where they come from, I don't think anyone is going to defy that. We don't have any clue how they pull that off technologicly speaking, they can do it with super luminal velocity or with subluminal ships. If they do it with superluminal speed then I imagine it's not really nescessary to be absolutely sure that you are going to find what you seek but otherwise they must have had means to know of our presence in advance simply of economical reasons.
If you look at how little we know of the stuff that we know they should have as a logical consequence of being startravellers, then how are we to speculate about the other technologies that they use.
An other thing that can be very different is their way how they organise their society. We don't have a lot of different models of social organisation but we've only been experimenting for let's say 5000 years. How could we have any idea of the things a species can come up with in the course of say a million years of recorded history ?

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

I thought this discussion was about why, if aliens are here, they don't show themselves?

All you septics out there, I ask you again! If you are all disputing the fact that aliens are here, what do the thousands of similar videos shot by camcorders all around the world in the last 10 years actually show? Are these craft built by humans instead? Are they for some covert military purpose? What then?

Why is it that sceptics always remain silent when it comes to debating things which they find more diffcult to explain? So far none of you have even ventured an opinion on the Mexican UFO wave I mentioned earlier. Is that because you cannot debunk it that easily?

You always say "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE." What then, is shown in these videos? And do not even dare insult my intelligence by suggesting that

a)they are hoaxes or
b)they are weather ballons or
c)they are the planet venus.

or even a combination of all three

I would suggest if these videos cannot be explained rationally then they DO in fact constitute evidence of a sort and an ET connection will have to be considered!

Anyway, that's the end of my little rant....

I await your scepticism with great interest!

[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 23, 1999).]

You know Spadge, why I have a problem with most UFO reports now-a-days is because of all the hoaxs, regretfully it dampens their credibility by association.

The reports that I find so compelling are ones from official sources. Not that the Mexico sightings haven't come from official sources, I just haven't really investigated those sighting seriously.

The reports that surprise me and I consider more seriously than others are video clips from the space shuttle. I'm sure many of you guys saw on "Sightings" and "Encounters" those video clips I'm talking about. For one thing, I'm interested on how they even got released. Another, is the explanation. I know that one of the explanations for one of the clips was "ice particles", but I haven't heard an "official" explanation for the others.

Other compelling evidence for me has been Astronauts coming forth and announcing that "yes" they have seen UFO's in space and at other times. As well as, our former President, Jimmy Carter, stating that he has seen UFO's.

How do you explain this type of evidence? Are these people all delusional and in deep need of psychiatric care? Aren't these the type of reports we are to consider solid evidence?

I'm a skeptic at heart and I don't sway easily, but this type of evidence leads me to believe that "yes" there are UFO's or alien space crafts visiting earth. And if someone doesn't give me a good, solid, rational explanation for these reports, I'm afraid that I will have to resolve myself to retaining this belief.

Bev :)

[This message has been edited by Bev (edited June 23, 1999).]

Look here you alienlovers,

All that I'm asking is for you to admid you don't know any more then I do what is actually going on when a UFO is observed. I mean there isn't a sign on it that says "Hello, I'm an alien" in 250 different languages so instead of fantasizing about it just admid that we don't know what it is and get it over with.
The only thing you can do is describe to the best of your abilities what you see once you start saying you are seeing alien spacecraft you are fantisizing, speculating, projecting your ideas on the unknown. Leave out all the BS and stick to the observables, please !

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Hey Plato, what do you mean about "observables"?

OH, and I resent the "alienlovers" label! ;)

Also, I ADMIT I don't have a clue, I'm just in search of the truth.

Have a nice day! :)
Bev

Plato

I also resent the term 'alien lovers' as I too am not making any assumptions here. If you'd read any of my earlier posts you would know that I'm still not convinced about the ETH theory. However, it does seem perfectly logical to me that if these objects are doing things that no earthly vehicle can, then this idea has to be considered.

I feely admit that I do not know what UFOs are but at least I'm trying to find out.
I'd like to know what you think they are?


Bev

Yes, that’s fair comment about the hoaxing. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the subject, these things are always gonna happen. However, sceptics should not use this fact to tar all cases with the same brush.

I also agree with you about the official reports being very interesting. When you hear someone like former Apollo astronaut, Gordon Cooper, say “Yes, I’ve seen these things and I believe them to be extraterrestrial!” it does hit home with a little more oooph. I mentioned the Belgium UFO wave of 1991 on one of my other postings when the Belgium military admitted in a press conference that an strange object had evaded two F16s by performing manoeuvers that no human pilot could not have survived. Colonel Wilfred De Brower actually said “there is something going on in our airspace which we cannot explain.” They even displayed the radar tapes of the F16s lock ons. I’ve heard an interview with one of the F16 pilots and he was in no doubt that this object was extraterrestrial.
Add to this the 2000 odd Belgians who reported this object during this wave (some of which were Gendarmes) and I fail to see how sceptics cannot accept this to be evidence.

The videos from the shuttle are very interesting. The clip with the ‘ice particles’ was certainly not explained by NASA in a way that accounted for all of the odd aspects of the film fin my opinion. You may well be aware the American scientist Dr Jack Kasher has conducted an in depth study of this particular clip and concluded that the objects shown are indeed powered space vehicles and not ice particles.

Strange that you feel offended by the term alienlover, this still is a public message baord so I was addressing the alienlover which clearly you are not.

But ok, what do I think of the ufo's ? I like not to think anything of it at all, untill presented with further evidence I don't want to draw to any conclusion but this : ufo (not the hoaxes of course) are as of today unexplained fenomena, nothing more, nothing less. Pretty lame answer, ha ?

As of the Belgian sightings, it happens that I am a Belgian and indeed our newspapers where full of alien crafts at that time. They where talking about triangular objects hovering in the sky. First of all there were far less then 2000 people who saw them, more like 20 will do just fine. Then the F-16 pilote saw what he saw and since he was flying a plane, he assumed that the object he was following was a vehicle as well, but here comes in the speculation. He only had a bleep on his radar, it could have been anything up to a malfuntioning of his device. So again I'm not taking any stand on this and as long as the aliens don't reveil themselves I chose not to believe in their existence at all !

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Novice internaut reaction: no need to get personal here, just us humans tryin' to make the day go a little easier. My only comment is that the film Men in Black seemed to me to be more truth disguised as fiction. This backwater planet of ours couldn't have much to interest FTL Travellers, other than a place to hide or rest. Idle curiosity is about all I can muster and I live here. Speculation is fun and the "evidence" mounts in our respective worldviews. Reflections within shadows, smoke and mirrors, all of our own making. Vastly entertainin' I'd say.

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super luminal

Plato

I am not offended, I just didn't like the 'alien lover' term as it is incorrect.

Regarding the Belgium wave, I'm afraid I have to inform you (again, as in the Pyramids debate) that you are wrong. An estimated 2000 people reported UFOs in that particular wave. That is the correct answer and I stand by it. However, that figure did include sightings from outside the borders of Belgium. Considering that the vast majority of the UFOs were sighted inside Belgium I would have to dispute your estimate of 20 as way too low. The very same triangular UFOs also caused a wave in Great Britain on March 31st 1993. Oddly, this was exactly 12 months later to the very night. As for saying the aircraft's radar could have malfunctioned, that is not possible. Why? For the simple reason that both aircraft locked onto this object and also two radar stations on the ground at Semmerzake and at Glans. The fact that each radar reported the same object is pretty conclusive. Also, the object was not, in the opinion of both pilots and ground controllers, anything that could have been ascribed to a meterological phenomena.

You also suggest that you don't want to think of UFOs at all until you are presented with further evidence. Then why the hell did you post this debate if your not willing to take any of the points onboard?

No offence intended, but I don't understand your attitude here.



[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 05, 1999).]

Plato.... I know it for a fact, on the White House lawn there is this little sign that says:

ABSOLUTELY NO ALIEN SPACECRAFT ON
THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN!!!

Silly Billy's idea!

Maybe, there is a few of those signs up around Parliament! Maybe... gov't officials have an agreement with the aliens that there will be "NO GRANDSTANDING"!

Bev :D

[This message has been edited by Bev (edited June 23, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Bev (edited June 23, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Bev (edited June 23, 1999).]

Plato... Do you believe there is other life in our universe ? !!!!

Other life outside our planet ?
O yes, very much so ! And I'm quite convinced we will have descisive evidence of it in the next century of life in our very solar system. If it is in our solar system, there must be other solar systems as well that harbour life, it might be as common as the stars themselves. Now I'm speculating myself, but I think the chances of having it right are a bit more then the chances of ufo's being alien spacecraft.

If the universe is teeming with life then automatically there must be huge numbers of intelligent species. Or is this automation not that evident ? We only have one example of intelligent life for the moment, or if we take the higher primates and the cateceans in it as well a handfull. Not really what one would call a representative statisticle measurement. So untill we have some more data on this subject, we must be really carefull with conclusions.

Spadge, I think we are the evidence that life on other planets exist since we definetly don't life in the same one :)
I don't know where you got your information but this ufo sighting in '91 was just blown out of proportion by our media. Hell, we even made it in the American news so suddenly all kinds of people started to witness the curious triangle shapes. That is why I say that only 1% actually saw something anomalous, the others were just flowing with the hype.

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

You say that we don't live in the same world. I put it to you that I am the one living in the real one.

The figures regarding this wave came from SOBEPS, a Belgian UFO invstigation group who throughout the wave were given access to work very closely with the Belgian gendarmrie and military.

Yes, I don't doubt that some people jumped on the bandwagon and reported things of their own but we are talking about a huge number of sightings here. The first sightings in that wave were made by two gendarmes near Eupen. They said that they witnessed a huge black triangle that flew soundlessly and hovered very low above them. They followed the thing for a long time and were able to observe it closely. Other gendarmes reported the exact same object (just as many police,military personel, and civilians did in Britain a year later).

Why should these people, many in positions of trust, want to report such a crazy story?

Also, why, if the whole thing was just media hype as you say, did your military say that there was something going on in their airspace that they could not explain? The fact that there was a media flap was a direct result of what was going on. Cause and effect in that order, and not in the way you suggest.

You also question the validity and source of my information. As well a good deal of litrature, I have video recordings of the actual press conference in which your miltary gave a full explanation of the events and admitted that they were baffled. I have also heard an interview with one of the F16 pilots involved.

I am sorry Plato, but as far as I can see the fact that you put all these events down to a media hype is simply ridiculous. Remember, you started this post by asking for some evidence. I am trying to provide it for you and you appear to simply disregard it.

This, unfortunately, is the classic response of the debunker and simply closing your eyes and ears to this mystery will not make it go away.

[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 24, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 25, 1999).]

look here guy,

you can do as much research as you want on this, the only thing you are doing is making a list of stuff people saw or claim they saw. If you like to fill your time with that, fine by me but you are not doing any thing with the data !
Do you have a scientifical way of filtering the data, pulling out ways to set up an experiment ? If you do then I 'm interested, I want to know more. As long as you are just filing away strange stories, you are nothing more then a collector of stamps, nice but not interesting.

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Plato

No, I do not have ways of setting up an experiment unfortunately. Due to the nature of the subject itself it is a little bit difficult to do. However, that does not mean it has no validity whatsoever.

You say you're not interested in these 'strange stories.' Well I am because I geniunely believe them to be important.
So don't get on your high horse with me and try to belittle my interest when far more intelligent people than you and I also believe this to be the case.

Nearly all of the questions I have put to you in the debate have been avoided. The ones you did try and address have been answered without the correct facts at your disposal. Don't blame me for pointing this out. I'm not just doing this to wind you up.

By the way, there is no need to address me by the sarcastic term of 'guy'. You asked for a debate and as far as I'm concerned you've got one.

So far you're losing buddy.



[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 24, 1999).]

Plato, I do think there is room to speculate on what technologies an advanced alien culture would use. I believe that there are limits on how far technology can go in terms of pure technological capability. Sure after most of technological capabilities have been taken care of technologies will been optimized and repackaged indefinitely. The need for lateral thinking (creative thinking) will never disappear.

What kinds of technologies might an advanced alien culture might possess?

Advanced nanotechnology. This is the ability to build anything out of atoms and molecules. Nanotechnology also includes the ability to break down any material into its component parts. I imagine that nanomachines networks would be used (like a sattelite communication network, but with tons of invisible sattelites of greater cabilities nearly at ground level).

Advanced computers. Aliens would likely have computers billions to quadrillions faster than our own.

Advanced AI. Artificial intelligences are very hard to create, but the aliens will have a lot of time.

Virtual reality. VR would likely be merged with the real world to reduce energy consumption.

Spacecraft. Subliminal definitely. Nuclear fusion, lasers, advanced chemical fuels, solar sails, gravitition assists, and antimatter. Antimatter would be one of the most difficult substances to create but it promises time dilated subliminal star travel.

The aliens may have long acceleration tubes connecting different solar systems.

The aliens may have fully developed K2 civilizations (fully developed solar systems -- asteroid belts fully populated) before they go for K3 status -- populating an entire galaxy.

Furthermore, I believe that if there are aliens cultures more advanced then us, they are likely millions of years past our development -- and possibly a K3 civilization if not more.

There we are ! Indeed, if an intelligent species has enough time it might uptain a K3 or more level of society. But that means that entiere galaxies and are populated with the species. If there is a K3 society in our galaxy, why don't we observe it ?
First of all they must know we are here, it's stupid to think a fully develloped K3 doesn't know of all it's possible rivals in it's own galaxy. So why don't they come and exterminate us ? Possibly because they are not of one species but are themselves a society of species evolved on all kinds of different planets so they would welcome us in their society. But then why don't they reveal themselves ? Are they waiting for us to make the first move and thus deming us ready for the big game or what ?
Second why don't we see them, they must use huge amounts of power but still camuflage it for infant species like us not to worry. But in using this amount of energy they must be deplating our galaxies energy soures quite fast so star's must be dying all over the place, we observe nothing of this kind.
So where are the K3 's ? Is it perhaps impossible for any species to obtain this fase of evolution ? Or maybe they just leave... god knows where, 'transcendent' like the Boeddist notion ?
Again, we don't have enough data on the subject to do anything more then speculate.

Spadge,

I really ticked you off didn't I ? OK, I'm sorry I didn't wanted to get personal but you were kind of arrogant yourself in saying that everyone who doens't know all the ufo stories should shut up about the subject. I really don't agree on this, it's like saying I should first read all the poems of Keats to know he's a wonderfull poet.
I read enough about ufo's (and used to be a believer in them myself) to discuss them. What I really dislike about the alien hypothesis is the complexification of the problem. Once you agree that ufo's are alien vessels you are left with more questions then you began with. If ufo's are natural phenomena then once you understand the phenomenon you have again solved a piece of the big puzzle. But how are you to understand an alien ? What you are doing is animating nature again. In the sense of the ancient ones who saw a god and a spirit after every lightingbolt or earthquick.
About experimenting, the phenomena that you are interested in are a bit as unpredictable as are gamma bursts. Now, recently astronomers developped a technique in which they could almost view a gamma burst at will. It involves a network of satellites and ground observatoria who monitor permenently the sky in a certain wavelength. If there would be enough money maybe something similar could be done for the ufos. If all the believers out there would be willing to share a bit of their wealth for the cause, you might pull this off.

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Plato,

May I interject here with a notion of why it is that you frustrate some, including me. There is NO DOUBT that you are one smart cookie. Some of the earthly knowledge that you have imparted on this forum is really impressive. What is frustrating though, is that you depend 100% on the knowledge that you ALREADY HAVE. It's like there's no room for anything that you don't understand already. Like I said before, you look for God under a microscope. You look for aliens through a telescope. You want to conduct an experiment that will "prove" the existance of either. Why don't you understand that our conventional ways of looking at things and proving things here on earth may be sooooo short-sided, that you really stand no chance in hell of ever realizing anything about either. It seems like you are caught in a paradigm of the scientific method, and just can't see anything beyond that, and that will not benefit you when trying to discuss things, such as these, that are "out of the realm". The way you talk about science makes me think that you have made a RELIGION out of it. Does that make sense?

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God loves you and so do I!

Plato

Fair comment I suppose. Maybe that last posting did come across as sounding a bit stronger in its tone than I intended. I was only trying to stir up a bit of feeling to help fire up the debates a bit. I have since edited it to make it slightly less inflammatory.

With regards to your Keats argument. Surely, if I had read Keats then my opinions on his poems would be of far greater value than the opinions of someone who has not. I would be able to say that I TRULY knew him to be a great poet instead of just quoting what I had heard from someone else.

I don't choose to know all of the stories as you put it. I look for the cases which I believe to be the most compelling, especially the ones containing evidence of a more tangible type. For example, radar contacts, ground traces, video footage etc.

I don't see the point in listening to eyewitness reports that are not backed up by somne other evidence.

With regards to your experiment comments. I would like to see a major scientific study carried out on the 3000 odd videos that have come out of Mexico since 1991. I am sure that we could at least establish what these objects are not. That would at least be a start.



[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 25, 1999).]

I am indeed speculating. Instead of arguing
for or against a point of view, sometimes I enjoy generating alternatives. Personally, I tend to lean a more sceptical viewpoint but that besides the point.

On the question 'Is there life other than us somewhere in the universe?', I can see many alternatives:

1. We are alone
2. Only primative life is out there
3. Intelligent life is out there, but the light revealing their existance hasn't reached us yet
4. Intelligent life did exist but was destroyed
5. The aliens are on a different plane of existance (they can't interact easily with us), perhaps living on a neutron star or in a different universe
6. Intelligent life exists but they are xenophobes or do not wish to interact with us.
7. Intelligent life is studying our world, in great detail, without our knowledge.
8. Aliens have indeed landed on our planet and are perhaps here in the stereotypical ways that believers think they are.

Which do you see as most likely alternative? How many alternative answers to the question have I missed?

[This message has been edited by Brent (edited June 24, 1999).]

Lori,

when does something turn into a religion for someone ? I think that happens when there are dogma's involved that are accepted as they are. Did I forwarded a dogma as in believing that science holds all the answers ? I hope not !
I will try clearify my relation with the scientific method. First of all science as we know it is not older then 400 years, it is still a fairly new way of looking at the universe but it has known lot's of success in those 4 centuries. Success can lead to blindness and overconfidence in its own capabilities. For example we can now build weapons who can destroy an entire city in an eyeblink, we soon (or probably are) will be able to clone human beings and tailor make our own kids. All these excesses are also possible because of scientific progress.
Like every other thing the scientific method is imperfect and if something better comes up we shouldn't hesitate to embrase it. But until that I think we should try to use it to the best of our abilities and try to make the most out of it.

Spadge,
about the piramids, honest now. Have you read anything else about the ancient Egyptians or any other people of the third and second millenium BC then the books that talk about them being remnants of old civalisations ? I have recently seen a documentary of these guys who claim that the sfinx was actualy a statue of a lion that looked to it's celestial image. But you must know that the name lion to the astral configuration is something that came from the babylonians, the Egyptians where not interested in the stars. The first zodiacal depictions in temples were from the Ptolemaic period and they had it from the Babylonians which were also conquered by Alexander. About the hieroglyphs, some writings are still debated by experts so if these guys claim they understand perfectly what is written on the walls they must be very clever indeed. Now, there never has been any writing found that is older then 5500 years, why is that do you think ? How can a civilisation that is so advanced as you say exist for thousands of years without leaving any trace ?
Look 10000 years ago the last ice age, which was a very long (30000 years) one just ended. Does this look as an obvious time for an advanced civilisation to exist ? They claim that it is silly that something like Egyption culture would come out of nothing but it is even more stupid to think an advanced civilisation would have sprang into existance during the harsh climate of the iceage. Even Egypt, which lies more south was very cold and had a tundra climate.


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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

I tend to side with Plato. Assigning the phenomena to extraterrestrials does not augment our understanding of them one little bit. After all, I imagine it's knowledge and understanding that we all look for in this matter.

I am also of the opinion that the overwhelming majority of 'evidence' presently available is either fake or misinterpreted. But the little of it that is undeniably unexplainable is sporadic and random. What is needed here is a systematic investigation. Not just an investigation of the evidence itself, but an effort to actually generate evidence in a robust and cross-examined manner. We need a global, coherent, multi-wavelength, multi-instrument, technologically diverse and multi-medium surveillance effort. We need active tracking and global data depositories to discover any patterns in activity. We need observations from the ground, air and space all coordinated and covering the entire atmosphere 24/7.

I do believe that the evidence for something unexplained happening is significant enough to demand such a massive investigation. I believe our governments should be willing to put just as much resources into it as they do into fusion research, or into space research -- because the potential benefits of such research cannot be overstated.

<hr>

As for the plea to sidestep science and 'trust your feelings, Luke': get real, people. Your senses are no less scientific instruments than a telescope or a microscope. Your brain itself is an instrument -- a sort of an exotic supercomputer. Scientific learning is the *only* way to acquire any practical knowledge. As a species we have always intrinsically used the scientific method; we just never were able to rigorously formulate it or use it with any consistency until fairly recently. Ever been around children? Ever see how they would drop something, watch you pick it up, then drop it again? Ever see them pulling at things, and chewing on things, and making a mess of things everywhere they go? There's scientific enterprise for you -- biologically embedded in us as curiosity to explore and know -- straight from birth and perhaps even before birth. Everything practical that we know -- how to walk, talk, think, speak, reason, behave -- has been achieved through experimentation, through scientific method. We are all scientists at heart; it's just that some of us are more willing to be consistent than others.

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I am; therefore I think.

Plato

the universe could be teeming with life or ouf solar system for that matter. however it is plausible that these would be simple organisms. Now I know what your going to say , given the age of the universe & the age of the solar system ours could be yhe simple life.
Possible our speices originated on a distant plant , such as sirius according to ancient Eygiptians , and eventually found its way to earth. Of course this is speculation but it is possible. Also it is my feeling that the age of the universe is younger than the current estimates.

Brent
those are all good possibilities but the number of possibilities are limited only by your or our imaginations. the actual anwsers may be beyond this limitation.

Plato

OK...I would have to admit that I am certainly no expert on early civilisations and I'd like to point out now (as I was obviously a bit misleading in some earlier postings)that I am in no way convinced of most of the ideas I've voiced. On many occasions I've simply been playing the Devil's Advocate role. I am however, intrigued by the many odities around the world that seem to give evidence to an earlier civilisation (the weathering of the Sphinx for example but, like you, I cannot understand why we don't see more traces of this civilisation.

I do however, think that the Egyptians were trying to build a representation of the constellation of Orion on Earth. (As we discussed in the Evidence In The Pyramids thread)I currently believe this theory because for me there is no doubt the pieces fit extremely well. If, in the future, I learn more that allows me to question this or someone comes along with a theory that fits even better then I will adjust my beliefs accordingly. Remember, this theory does not have anything to do with any earlier civilisations. It also does tie in quite closely with your 'burial mounts' belief. By the way what heiroglyphs were you referring to?

You do point out that the stars were not important to the Egyptians. If this is the case why is the constellation of Orion mentioned clearly in the Pyramid texts (The Egyptian Book Of the Dead) in the pyramid of Saquarra? It also says time and time again that the Pharaoh, after death, will join his father Osiris as a star in the constellation of Orion. Also, the celing of the pyramid is completely covered with stars.


Lori

Even after Boris's excellent response, I agree with what your getting at. I think that sometimes science is unable to get to grips with the paranormal simply because of the very nature of the area itself. How does any paranormal investigator prove a strange phenomena exists. He may employ all of the scientific methods at his disposal to do this. But what if the phenomena is not quantifiable with any known method. What ever science has taught us it currently does not have the answers to everything. It may well be that in 50 years we will have the knowledge that will make it possible to explain many areas of this field in a scientific way.



[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 28, 1999).]

Ok, I might have exaggerated a bit in saying that the Egyptians didn't care about the stars, but what I was trying to say and am quite convinced of the truth was that the Egyptians were less concerned with the stars then the babylonians. There whole world revolved around the River.
I also have to stay sceptical regarding their relation with Orion, first of all I'm not that certain that 5000 years ago the constellation had the same shape as it has now, star's also have a relative velocity you know, and I must admid I haven't heard of these writings that associates Osiris with Orion. I do know however that Osiris is a god of the earth and of plants, he was kind of reincarnated and represents life after death. Not really a god associated with stars, wouldn't you say so ?
But I must agree, the anomalies is what makes is all so interesting ! The more the merrier.


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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato


[This message has been edited by Plato (edited June 28, 1999).]

Hey Spadge, are we not giants standing on the back of midgets? Get off Plato's back Guy. You have no way of proving anything that you say. No need to antagonise every time your back is in a corner!!!

Gap...butt out pal!

You've totally misread the situation here. I have simply been arguing my point of view. I certainly have not been trying to antagonise anybody and if that's how it came across then I can only say that it was not meant to sound like that.

For a start both Plato and I gave as good as we got in what I felt, for the most part, to be a good debate. Come to think of it, I don't remember feeling I was "in a corner" either!

You either haven't read all of the postings correctly, or you've misread the tone intended (in all but one of them). Try reading them again with this in mind.

I'm new here and you're newer still. In the time I've been here I have already become well aware of Plato's ability to fight his own battles. It's a shame you felt you had to get involved in this way as there was no need really.

And by the way, you'll find that it's a fact that neither Plato, I or anybody else here can prove our points of view.



[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 01, 1999).]

Plato,

This is quite a hot, scalding subject you've opened here (3 pages long already!!!). It is "hot" for no other reason that it is opened to the vast speculative imagination of whomsoever wishes to sit back and paint a scenario according to human fancy.

The entire premise of your opening proposition is, of course, highly unlikely; and i think you were well aware of this when you opened the post. However...

You've stated that you are a skeptic at the outset and wish to be convinced through a flagrant demonstration by the aliens of performing that which we must assume an illogical demonstration which would reflect stupidity rather than intelligence.

Now that you've heard three pages worth of ideas, where do you stand with respect to your opinion on this subject matter?

As to my opinion, i don't really have one. But i must say that authors writing on the subject and defending the "intelligence" of extraterrestrial visitation to our planet have put forth some convincing arguements; convincing to logics, of course.

For example, some have imagined some time in the future when our own technology permits us to visit other civilizations in space (yet to be proven, of course). How would we approach such a civilization? Would we quickly impose ourselves and adamantly and stubbornly demand that they take us to their leaders? Intelligence, as you will agree, would not allow this. See, for example, how carefully we quarantined our first men in space when they returned to earth. Our fear was that these men may have been contaminated by some unknown microbe that when introduced to the earth could cause havoc. This was caution on the part of our scientists. And it was a very wise action, you'll agree.

I believe that the best course of action is one of extreme caution, as our zoologists admit when studying primates in the wild. One simply doesn't zoom down on a bunch of monkeys and screams a tarzan-like scream! Intelligence wouldn't allow that, as i've said.

Witness how absolutely careful the pharmaceutical companies are before marketing a new product; first they make thorough testing and then launch "pilot" markets to further test the consequences of the effects. Once assurance is reached that the product meets expectations, full-scale marketing is launched. So, caution is a mark of intelligence, an offshoot thereof.

Logically, then, if a civilization has developed intelligence to such a degree as to be able to create vessels able to travel light years, assuredly they would use caution when visiting neighbours. Note that before you walk into your own neighbour's home first you knock and ask permission.

It seems the logical thing to do because it is the moral thing to do and morals, as you know, are conceptions which only intelligent creatures (on the level of human development and above) are capable of. I don't think morallity would escape our hypothetical intelligent extraterrestrials.

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dumaurier

Again,

you are underestimating the possibilities of an advanced alien race (or races) who are around for say a million years and have a K2 or more society and their idea of caution.
Zoologists as Diane Fossey actually mixed with their objects of study and payed their respect to the dominant male to become accepted in the group. Some thing for anthropologes, they go and live in a tribe for several year in order to study them.
Why isn't there a broad spectrum of interaction, why only study the workings of our internal organs ? There is simply nothing we can begin against a K2 civilisation, they use energies who can evaporate our tiny planet so why be afraid of some puny little humans and use extreme caution ? They must have encountered countless other intelligent species emerging and must know pretty much what they are doing in dealing with us. I imagine they would put their exospecialists to work in dealing with us.
But how long do you think they need to study us ? If you must believe people like Van Dänicken these guys have been around ever since we drew our first painting on rocks. Just how much experiments does it take before they lay of their paranoid caution ?

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Plato

You point out that there isn’t a broad spectrum of interaction and that these aliens are only studying our internal organs. Surely any alien owning a TV set would have access to a very broad range of human behaviour to study (although I dread to think what these grey guys make of Australian soap operas).

Anyway, if these beings really are here, we have no way of knowing who or what they really are. There have of course been a number of ideas ranging from ETs, to inter-dimentional beings, or humans from the far distant future.

However, here’s a thought. What if it’s completely impossible for man to begin to understand the answer to UFOs with the knowledge that we currently possess. I’ve heard it described as the Coke Can analogy. Imagine a monkey happily foraging in a forest for food. One day he comes across the strange sight of a can of Coca Cola lying on the floor of the forest. He naturally assumes with his monkey brain that the can has fallen from a tree. Anyway, he drinks the Coke and likes the taste. He decides he wants more and proceeds to spend the rest of his life looking for a Coca Cola tree. I’m sure you see what I’m getting at here. With his limited monkey view of the world he is not equipped to possibly understand the full astounding truth about the Coke can. Maybe we are just like this monkey when it comes to UFOs.

If you think this is a crazy theory, I’m not saying I believe it either. However, I do find an interesting idea.

One other point, why does everybody always think that if Aliens are here, then they must be thousands of years more advanced than we are. OK..., light speed and travel to the stars is not yet possible. However, look at the astounding advances in science of just this last 100 years, never mind the last millenia. Who knows, in a couple of hundred years we might have the technology to really go places. Maybe, even sooner.




[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 05, 1999).]

It is a rare occasion indeed, but I must agree with Spadge. Especially if the aliens are millions of years ahead, we wouldn't recognize their spaceship for what it is even if we saw one.

But let me ask you another question: if a civilization has been around for millions of years, evolved to some unimaginable technological heights, and seen hundreds if not thousands of other fledgling and advanced civilizations, and trillions of lifeforms -- why do they even bother studying *us*? By that time, we must be about as interesting to them as a wheel is to us. So I venture that if some civilizations are indeed studying us, they are not all that much more advanced than we are (give or take a few thousand years, that is.)

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I am; therefore I think.

Plato,

First off let me say that i really like your name :)

Second, i wasn't really underestimating the possibilities; let's just say i'm a little dull around the edges, okay? ;)

When you mention Diane Fossey, i wonder, did she sneakily perch herself on a branch and the minute the hoard of longarms approached she jumped down and started flirting with the leader? Hmmm...i wonder about this woman :) Nah, just joking, Plato. But you do have to take into consideration the fact that she did take her time before starting the foreplay; she didn't do it immediately. Maybe our little humanoids' sense of time isn't the same as ours. Say, 1000 of our years is equal to 1 hour of theirs? Just a wild guess, of course. (Hey! This is fun :) )

Your question, "Why isn't there a broad spectrum of interaction, why only study the workings of our internal organs?" really has me puzzled. I mean, wouldn't you like to publish an anatomical encyclopedia, too?

We can't know for sure that there isn't a broad spectrum of interaction. Maybe there is, on different levels (psychical, or whatever). We simply don't know. (Our imagination is really getting out of hand here... snicker...snicker...)

It is for sure that if they can use energies which can wipeout our planet they wouldn't be afraid of us. I think only paranoid extraterrestrials would wage an all-out attack on helpless creatures. But don't forget that these guys are supposed to be "evolved" and supra scientifically developed. So i should think that war is out of the question. However, to get back on topic, the caution i underlined had more to do with a no-interference sort of tactic with respect to our development. I assume you know that a foreign body injected within a biologiocally stable system can cause tremendous havoc. Think of what would happen to our own culture by the injection of an absolutely, out-of-mind perspective! Caution is needed.

Then again, given the numberless (but conjectured) possibilities of extraterrestrial life developed to the point of making interstellar travel possible, perhaps every reported sighting that has some substance is of a different spaceship or humanoid from a different culture? I mean that perhaps there are millions of extraterrestrials visiting us from time to time and that we never really see the same ones twice because perhaps they only drop by for a second or so (maybe to gas up?). They simply don't have time for any kind of consistent longterm relationship. This brings to mind the Villa Boas case in South America. Ever heard of it?

As to Von Dan, have you ever read Crash Go The Chariots? The author disproves most of Von Dänicken's wild theories!

My theory (based on the fact that we have still to see some kind of pattern of similarity in it all)is that every object, every flying saucer seen landing, hovering or taking off, is really a human experience with a unique object unrelated to any other. If we could positively conclude from data that out of 1000 UFO sightings 501 were of the exact same object, then we could speculate that the same "race" is here visiting, experimenting, or whatever. But this isn't the case. The details are so disparate that it makes any conclusion impossible. Thousands and thousands of eyewitness accounts are only subjective experiences. But if we could get thousands and thousands of clear polaroid pictures from Italians, Chinese, Africans, Australians, Americans, and so on, then our conclusions may be more intelligent and less based on the sort of speculations we are making here.

Spadge:

The monkey in search of a coke-can-tree is hilarious but makes a lot of sense.
I do believe that in a couple of hundred years our technology will be absolutely unlike anything we know today.

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dumaurier

Dont have much to say about this.. just wanted to be poster #100.. :p



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Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English :\

Well, i do actually. I have just read all 100 posts here, *pheew* and i have to say that this is a really good discussion, hope it lives a little longer.

About Aliens.. I have an idea. They are here, but those people who know and have the proof just keep their mouths shut. Until....

Until what? only time will tell us i guess.

I do believe there are aliens visiting us, and have done so for a long time. One thing i am curious about is that it seems like most of the recent sightings occured after Hiroshima, and Nagasaki melted in 1945. Didnt it all start with Roswell NM in 1948?

So why arent they landing and make themselves known? I would think that is because of the chaos that would follow such a thing. So they did it the other way. Spoke to the world leaders about their agenda, and whom they were. But the leaders of planet earth decided that the public wasnt ready for it.. .until....

Is there someone who wants to continue on that one?



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Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English :\

Ha ha Boris

I didn’t realise that we held such opposing views on everything. I'm sure I thought our opinions on a number of things had been quite similar. I must check back and see. Anyway, regarding the apparently rare point we’ve agreed upon (about aliens not necessarily having to be thousands of years in advance of us). You asked why should they want to study us if we are so primitive? Don’t we study the most primitive life forms on Earth ourselves or is that too simplistic an answer? I suppose it probably is. There is however, another more sinister possibility here. What if these aliens want something either from the human race, other animal species, or from Earth itself? Could this be what the abduction thing is about? Or even the cattle mutilations (as discussed elswhere)? Or are we into the realms of pure ridiculous fantasy here? Before you all get mad with me for suggesting such utter nonsense, I will remind you that I’m only speculating.


Dumaurier

Glad you liked the Monkey Puzzle Tree idea! Yes, Von Danniken was utterly demolished a long time ago. I still think that his basic concept is quite reasonable but the ‘evidence’ he used to back up his theory was at best flawed and at worst downright lies. Personally, I could never understand why he thought the Nazca lines were evidence of some gigantic spaceport. Would the aliens need runways this long? On your other point regarding the Antonio Villas Boas case, if that’s what alien abduction is really like, I don’t know why all these male abductees are complaining…..snigger… But seriously, I have to admit that I’m highly sceptical of that particular case.


H-kon

I too am hoping that this discussion has more too offer us yet. Yes, you are quite correct to say that the modern wave of UFO sightings began after World War 2. However, Roswell was not the first case to capture the public’s imagination. This was Kenneth Arnold’s famous 1947 sighting over Mount Rainier, Washington. It was in this case that the term flying saucer was first used.

With regards to your point on an alien presence here on Earth. I have to say that I lean towards the idea some people in governments know that UFOs are real, but they don’t know the truth about what is behind them.


[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 06, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 06, 1999).]

Granted, the extraterrestrials might have their motives to keep us guessing.

But the non-interference idea seems a bit bogus to me. I have mentioned it before myself in this discussion, but only as a joke.

The reason I don't think it's so credible is because our civilization has indeed faced grave turmoil before (recall WWII?) So, if we could get through <u>that</u>, then why wouldn't we be able to get through an ET visit?

Besides, stark non-interference, as in Star Trek's "first directive", is unreasonable. It would imply that if a great catastrophy were to wipe out all life on a planet, an advanced civilization wouldn't interfere to prevent it. But, any highly evolved species that managed to survive long enough to reach its present heights, would certainly possess a certain degree of compassion and rationality -- enough not to let such a disaster happen.

So, these are some of my reasons for disbelieving the viability of absolute non-interference. But, as I mentioned, they still might have their motives. Like the saying goes, "God(s?) work(s?) in mysterious ways". (Hey, I'm not claiming they are Gods, give me a break! Actually, I'm not even claiming they are for real. But the phenomenon deserves systematic study...)

<hr>

Oh, I forgot about Spadge.

What I was saying is not that we are too simple to be of interest, but that a really advanced civilization would have seen enough examples of our equivalents, that we would pose no further questions for them. The reasons <u>we</u> study 'simple' life are manyfold. For one, 'simple' life is not simple at all. But more importantly, we don't have a comprehensive knowledge of biochemistry, nor of life in general -- therefore we study those subjects. A far more advanced civilization would possess such knowledge, however, and would find no particular interest in us. They would probably have other things in mind, far too esoteric for us to even imagine. That's why I claim that if any alien civilization is putting us under a microscope, they are not all that much more advanced than we are (on geological timescales, that is).

Oh, and concerning that agreement/disagreement thing. I didn't mean you personally, Spadge; sorry it came out that way. It was a sort of a self-derogatory joke, as I rarely tend to come into agreement with anybody on these boards ;)

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 06, 1999).]

I read earlier in this thread that Lori said:
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I do have proof, Corporal. I have a friend who's being abducted. She told me so, and I believe her. How can you have physical evidence of mind control? What about all of the implants that they're pulling out of people lately? There are other physical manifestations, scars, and injuries. You can't just ignore people's testimonies; these people aren't crazy. Ok, maybe a few, but not most, and there are so many. But what about that lack of hard cold metal machinery and little green men? Good question...You're thinking that they are like us, only little and green. They are not like us; not at all.
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Excuse me..
(Hysterical laughter)
You aren't serious are you?

Let me tell you something. Several thousand mentally disturbed people herald the end of the world by UFO invasion every year. Yet I feel safe in saying that every single one of their impassioned stories will prove to be false. First of all because their stories are so illogical and secondly because they have not a scrap of evidence. (Although they make claims that, if they were true, would necessitate the presence of some sort of evidence. For an example an alien crash.) You can easily dismiss these because a simple experiment (ie.Waiting to the date specified ;)) can prove them wrong. Because such experiments are not always easily available for abduction claims, we have to rely on other sources. These sources invariably indicate a lack of credibility, evidence, or both.

Although your friend may be mentally divergent, or, not unlikely, a hard hearted person who is taking advantage of your naivete for a few laughs.* I myself knew a whole family that sincerely believe that they were abducted. Everyone in the family was extremely sensitive about the topic, and would become confrontational, (I daresay violent) when their belief was challenged. No matter how vehement they are or how much you want to believe them, it just isn't true. I know actually a lot of people who believe "paranormal" phenomenon happened to them. Everyone of them has several gaping flaws in their stories. Oh, I forgot, there are a lot of them, the must be true.

"What about all of the implants that they're pulling out of people lately?"
Oh, it’s THEY again is it? This is, I assume, the same THEY that found the cure for cancer, poverty, disease, war, suffering, and even death. Do you know where I can find THEM? And where do these implants go? Oh yea, the MIB take them away right?

"There are other physical manifestations, scars, and injuries."

An injury is not proof. I may even go so far as to say it is not even, unto itself, evidence. But I won't.

"You can't just ignore people's testimonies;"
Ahh, but you can. If the testimonies in question have no credibility or evidence, the detail or number of them is irrelevant.

"these people aren't crazy. Ok, maybe a few,** but not most, and there are so many."
I’d say they are not all totally insane, but most of them have problems. (Or an ax to grind.) Everyone in the middle ages believed witches were eating their children, but that didn't make it true, did it?

"But what about that lack of hard cold metal machinery and little green men? Good question...You're thinking that they are like us, only little and green. They are not like us; not at all."

Ahh, you have answered the question. It is now established fact that aliens abduct humans, give them anal probes, eat cow, and damnit, they have my Elvis. No proof? We don't need any. they are little and green and "They are not like us; not at all." Heck why would we need evidence if they are little and green?

*A Joke.

**Heh heh, yea, depending on how you define "a few". ;)
(Please let me know if there are any odd characters in this text. My word processor had a nasty propensity to change quotation marks to Ò and Ô type marks.
but then again, maybe it's the MIB again.)

[This message has been edited by Blacktubby (edited July 07, 1999).]

H-Kon wrote:
"Dont have much to say about this.. just wanted to be poster #100.."

Man, you are so hilariously funny that this keeps me coming back for more! H-Kon, hats off to ya....and thanks for the laugh!


PS: Hope you weren't serious (were you?..duh...)

PPS: About the Hiroshima idea you propose, well, you know H-Kon, in this sort of debate anything goes. Sure, maybe this woke "them" up...whatever :)

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dumaurier

Aliens have always been here. You can read documented reports from every culture on the planet going back 3,000yrs or more. I have provided a link below with video clips. All of the clips labled STS are from space shuttle missions. The 2 most notable are
Sts-80 3.09mb RP and Sts-48 1.84mb qt. Both of these were shown in a interview on TNT by Story Musgrave who is Nasa's #1 shuttle pilot. Sts-48 1.84mb is quite unique because it shows a weapon of some type fired from the earth at one of the alien craft. Which means our goverment can track them to some extent and tries to knock them down. You will also note that there are a lot of alien craft moving about not just 1 or 2. In the interview on TNT Story also showed clips of alien craft sighted during the moon landings in the 1960. I'm still trying to locate a site that has these.
http://www.ncircus.com/ufo/uvideo.htm

Thanks
Joe

Dumaurier:

Well.. I was just trying to side-track the conversation here which i have to say is a very good one.. Man.. what resources and "knowledge" this board has. I am happy to be here :)

This is what i have read that i want to question a little ( I am gonna get flamed)
Here goes.

This is what i have read about people who have been "told" the "truth" about them ..

There are about 70 different rases out there, some are independent, some are involved in parties much the same as NATO and such.

There are 2 organized NATO's out there. One consisting of 12 members, one of 6-8. The larger one are pretty much the good guys who dont walk right in without knocking on our door,. They are somewhat active, but they cant let themselves known before we are asking them to.

The second ones are not the bad guys, but rather more self centered. They help out mankind and planet earth in general, but not without helping themselves. Many of them are here now in underground bases (7 of them) more or less know by the major factions and nations of Earth which are all over the world.

This is something that i have read from people who had access to the "libraries" of the Munks in Tibet.

This all sounds crazy when you think about it. Believe me I know, but If you think about a less violent version of "Men in Black
this could all make some sence.
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I remember when there was the oil-tanker that crashed outside the "Shetland Islands" not that many years ago. Cant remember the exact year ( much less what i did last week ) but when the catastrophe was a fact, and the birds died and all, we didnt know what to do about it.
About a week later , a BBC newshelicopter was flying out there to document all of this, when they saw a green shining ball of light under water, functioning like a vaccum cleaner for the Oil.. 4 weeks later, the catastrophe that could have been the
Exxon Valdez of the north sea, didnt happen.. Much damage occured, but one could actually clean the place up a bit .

So with all of my yada yada yada, which problaby doesnt make any sence, I am gonna let you more intelligent guys take over..

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Jis tri'n t git by

Planetx

Yes, the shuttle film you are talking about was briefly mentioned by Bev and I on the first couple of postings on the previous page.

H-kon

If them pesky aliens are cleaning up our oil spills then I for one am happy. Lets hope they can do something about global warming.

H-Kon,
Where did you get the Alien Races information from? I ask because I have heard "<u>basically</u>" the same scenario but all the numbers you gave were larger quantities and the tale was more grandios. My info source was from Europe ( I live in Australia ).
Regards,
Dave.

Planetx,

The site you posted is fabulous! There is enough there to keep a man studying for another 100 years. Really want to thank you a million for the great effort. Please tell us how you became involved in the phenomena. Are you currently a researcher? Are you a firm believer or on the edge? Do you actively investigate reports?

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dumaurier

H-Kon,
Thank you very much for the clarification. But i want you to know that you WERE VERY FUNNY!!! I agree with you about the quality of thinkers on this board. Aren't we lucky?


About what you wrote, if i were you i wouldn't care at all if i got flamed a little. It's to be expected due to the fact that we are all unique beings with our own views. I think you're entitled to yours, right? Oh, and about that bit concerning "us" intelligent guys: don't let that fool you! Your views are as valid as anybody else's :)


I wonder, H-Kon, where did you get all the info on the 70 different races and so on? Sounds interesting.

When you say that "there are 2 organized NATO's out there," are you refering to organizations formed by men in black? Just asking.

I've heard other people mentioning underground bases. As a matter of fact, let me tell you about a girl (she was 22) who for several nights stayed at her aunt's and uncle's cottage up in the mountains of La Tuque, Quebec, Canada, before she decided the mountains weren't safe. One evening she went down to the lake and a saucer-shaped flying object flew out of the water with a big splash and disappeared into space. Of course, you can imagine how scared she was. The next day, she stayed inside but couldn't take her mind off of the experience and so she watched the lake from the porch of the cottage. It was afternoon and sunny when she saw the same object suddenly appear and plunge into the lake never to come back up again. When she told her relatives about this, they just laughed and said they had never seen anything of the kind themselves. They reasoned that it was probably just the reflection of the sun on the water at the same time that a big fish jumped up!!
The fact is that i knew this girl very well and i also knew that she was not the type to exaggerate or lie. And when she told me about the experience she was white in the face. Underwater base? Hmmmm. It would be interesting to go there and explore. But who has the submarine? :)


The oil tanker incident you write about is extremely interesting. Wish we could get our hands on a newspaper report of the incident where the light is mentioned. You think this is possible?


Nice talking to you

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dumaurier

Dave. I guess we must have been on the same page somewhere :-)

I have read books ( Charles Berlitz, Atlantis) just browsed through the net, asked people who have had experiences. One familly that i feel have had many experiences have told me many of these things.
I cannot remember all the books i have read which were people having access to the "libraries" of Tibet. I was roaming the library without a library card :(

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I also have another source which have confirmed many of the things that i have read which will remain anonymous for the time being. I will only say that this person is a doctor in Quantmechanic, Enzymatic studies, Nanotech, chemistry, biochemistry, and has met with government officials of many countries, and i feel this source of mine is highly credible. Maybe more information will be revealed in the future for me to share with you guys.


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"All i say is keep looking".

Hi all -

Here is another site that has a good article about UFO acceleration.


ACCELERATION
Bruce S. Maccabee, Ph.D.
ABSTRACT
Visual and photographic sighting of UFOs carrying out "impossible" high speed maneuvers are presented for study. For the first time we are able to quantify the amazing acceleration of these craft.
http://www.accessnv.com/nids/whatelse.html