I support the war because I think it will bring much needed democracy, freedom, and prosperity to Iraq in the long run, and eventually serve to weaken the bastion of terrorism and religious fanaticism in the Middle East.

So, I'll keep it short. Am I wrong? Will Iraq benefit from this war in the long run? Will it serve as a stepping stone for more freedom in the Middle East? Why or why not?

You left out a chicken in every pot, and pie in the sky.

Why not? Let's say the world decided to invade and occupy the USA, and rid America of WMDs and all our home-grown fanatics by the same methods, and convert us to socialism. How do you think that would turn out?

God, could you please try and refrain from the inane comments? They hurt the threads, and seem contagious. I'll take it that you don't believe this will help Iraq or the Middle East attain religious freedom, democracy, and prosperity. Why not?

And we did not send terrorists over to bomb Iraq. They started it, and we have no choice but to deal with it. Pragmatically, I realize that this cannot all be handled at home, we have to go to the root of the problem. Can you understand that? Is that getting through your thick skull?

Inside my thick skull, the root of the problem is exactly as I tried to illustrate in the first post. The Arab world has had it with American "solutions", and no amount of death and humiliation will change that fact. On the contrary, occupation will emphasize it.

hype, as someone once put it...


God, could you please try and refrain from the inane comments?

I've never seen Him comment once. Maybe you're having an epiphany, and gods and presidents are naturally idiots.

OK shit, I don't what makes you so dumb, but that shit really works. "God" in that sentence was more of an interjection than anything. So let me help him out then (with your permission Balder ;) )


could you please try and refrain from the inane comments?

And for what it is worth, I completely agree with the statement I support the war because I think it will bring much needed democracy, freedom, and prosperity to Iraq in the long run, and eventually serve to weaken the bastion of terrorism and religious fanaticism in the Middle East. Once Iraq turns into a democracy I think it will be a kind of blue print of what could happen. They were once a great nation. I don't see why it can't happen again.

Inside my thick skull, the root of the problem is exactly as I tried to illustrate in the first post. The Arab world has had it with American "solutions", and no amount of death and humiliation will change that fact. On the contrary, occupation will emphasize it.

Thanks. Your second post was more intelligible and on topic, and you do have a point. Time will tell, but I'm still optimistic that the Iraqis will eventually accept the US, especially after we help them. That will be a major turning point.

However, I'm not sure we can ever root out the entrenched religoius fanaticism. God knows, its hard enough to root it out of our own country, and Muslims are known to be more devout than Christians.

I don't think there are that many fanatics in Iraq. They even had to import suicide bombers to get the people to blow themselves up for Saddam.

We'll have to watch and see... But didn't you notice the "democracy" we made in our own image in former Palestine, and proclaimed as a shining precursor of justice and stability for the region? Somehow, it hasn't caught on so well. Hmmmm... I wonder why:bugeye:

WE made in Palestine? What?

"...I don't what makes you so dumb, but that shit really works"

We didn't create Israel. The United Nations did.

OK you win. I need sleep. G'nite;)

Originally posted by Balder1
I support the war because I think it will bring much needed democracy, freedom, and prosperity to Iraq in the long run, and eventually serve to weaken the bastion of terrorism and religious fanaticism in the Middle East.

They still haven't made it clear that they intend to put up a democratic government, and that's a little bit suspicious imho. And with the oil revenues going to american corporations, prosperity is unlikely as well. Terrorism and religious fundamentalist are actually getting a huge boon from the war.


Originally posted by Balder1

So, I'll keep it short. Am I wrong? Will Iraq benefit from this war in the long run? Will it serve as a stepping stone for more freedom in the Middle East? Why or why not?

I believe you are wrong, it's that kind of wishy washy hopefullness that made communism spread across the globe.

:m:

"This war will only serve as a stepping stone for more freedom in the Middle East" if the Iraqis valiant resistance against the far superior military of the imperialists inspires other middle eastern countries to rise up and throw out their US backed dictators.

Oh there you go with this imperialists thing again... Which country in this world pays taxes to the United States?

Originally posted by Balder1
Will Iraq benefit from this war in the long run?

Since Iraq will have neither democracy nor freedom nor prosperity in the short run and no plans exist for that, there’s little reason to believe it’ll have it in the long run. Bush will run New Iraq as a military dictatorship indirectly via an American general. The British in recently “liberated” Umm Qasr are offering subsistence wages only slightly above what Saddam allowed, $US 35 to $40 a month.

Originally posted by Jerrek
Oh there you go with this imperialists thing again... Which country in this world pays taxes to the United States?
I explained this to you before in another thread. I'm not going to bother with it again.

Said by Balder 1
And we did not send terrorists over to bomb Iraq. They started it, and we have no choice but to deal with it. Oh. Are you saying that Iraq came over and bombed the states in 9/11?

Hmmmm......Um..... how do you work that out?

And how do you work out that going over and whacking Iraq, will also sort out the Palestinians, Al Queda, and the others who REALLY HAVE been flying planes into building, bombing hotels in Pakistan and night clubs in Bali.

Or did Saddam do all those as well?

And Hypewader's point was valid, as the other side of the coin
Let's say the world decided to invade and occupy the USA, and rid America of WMDs and all our home-grown fanatics by the same methods, and convert us to socialism. How do you think that would turn out?I don't believe that President Bush has the right to say what sort of administration Iraq will eventually have.

It matters not the administration, to USA, so long as they toe the right line. If it mattered as to whether a country was democratic on not, then why did USA roll over Iran's democracy, and Chile's as well?

Getting rid of Saddam Hussein is one thing. Telling another country exactly how they will run their country in the future is another.

Somehow, it hasn't caught on so well. Hmmmm... I wonder why Gee, I guess I'll have to enlighten you. Israel's culture and religion is very different from the the rest of the Middle East, and they feel resentment against it. Iraq will most likely be made into a democratic Palestinian state, from what I've heard in news.


They still haven't made it clear that they intend to put up a democratic government, and that's a little bit suspicious imho. Whoa. Operation Iraqi Liberation: how much clearer can they get? I'm sure Bush and his officials have spoken numerously about the reconstruction and democratization of Iraq - it is on everyone's lips and everyone's minds.

You can rest assured that the U.S government will do its best to instate democracy, because President Bush's popularity, reelection, and image depend on it. If he were to let the people down and just say the hell with it right now, the political backlash would be outstanding.

The fact that this is your only real argument is also somewhat amazing. Where do you get this stuff? Everyone else takes it for granted that the reconstruction is going to happen, yet on the sciforums it seems like everyone just says over and over: "they won't, they can't, I won't let them."

Face it. We are probably going to westernize Iraq, complete with democracy, capitalism, and fast food. We did in Japan, and we can do it in Iraq.


inspires other middle eastern countries to rise up and throw out their US backed dictators. Great, more communist disinformation. What countries are these, jps? I'm sure the United States would like nothing more than to break up these dictorships/theocracies/monarchies.


The British in recently “liberated” Umm Qasr are offering subsistence wages only slightly above what Saddam allowed, $US 35 to $40 a month. Do you have a source of that, zanket?


Oh. Are you saying that Iraq came over and bombed the states in 9/11? You're right. Probably shouldn't have put those two sentences right together. I meant that the Middle East started it, and now we really have no choice but to go in there and try to take out the root of the problem. If we want to live safe, we're going to have to crack it.


And how do you work out that going over and whacking Iraq, will also sort out the Palestinians, Al Queda, and the others who REALLY HAVE been flying planes into building, bombing hotels in Pakistan Well, what do all those things and Iraq have in common? They're all in the Middle East, or close enough to it. Iraq is going to our foothold in the Middle East.

We went into war with Iraq because it was the easiest to justify politically, and also would have less domestic problems afterwards. Do I need to explain this more in depth?

There was an outrage over going to war with the militant, tyrannical regime of Iraq - I wonder what sort of uproar we would've had over Saudia Arabia, even though it is the source of more terrorists.

Balder, you have just postulated that America is at war with the entire middle east, but that it's all under control.

Anglo-Americans have already been rejected as rulers of the region. Russian Communists can not reclaim the former Soviet Union by just killing, let's say, a few Czechs. Even after the last of Baghdad is mopped up and the Busheviks celebrate a glorious victory, this bloodbath will not end until the Anglo-Americans completely remove their forces from the region. If they are lucky, they will get to keep Israel.

As our articulate, prescient Great Leader has said: "This will be long and difficult".

Originally posted by Balder1
Face it. We are probably going to westernize Iraq, complete with democracy, capitalism, and fast food. We did in Japan, and we can do it in Iraq.

What is your basis for that? The administration’s stated plans are for the opposite (http://www.middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=4) and that is where the incentive lies. The Iraqis will not be able to afford fast food, most having wages (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55510-2003Mar30.html ) that allow only a hand-to-mouth existence. If Iraq is ever democratized, another US president will likely have to risk their career for that since the oil companies would lose hundreds of billions in revenues.

Please provide some a link or two to support your position.

america has no right to invade iraq. its done so without the approval of the UN.....by all the terms of the UN charter shouldn't sanctions be imposed on america? then again that can't be done as america is one of the big 5.

the UN was always a weak and ineffective body. it was supposed to be an organization based on equality and fairness, but how can that be achieved when any one of 5 nations have the power to render the opinion of the 189 other members of the UN void?

who supplied iraq with arms in the first place-the west. america's policy of being global policeman is sickening.... the much vaunted american military technology has come to naught.....the old 1970s and 1980s soviet equipment is holding up well against the american tech.

though i don't want american soldiers to die, or for that matter iraqi soldiers.... i sincerely hope that iraq defeats america. i find the holier than thou attitude of the american govt. to be quite sickening......it armed the afghan mujahideen and it payed the consequences through sept.11. the people of america paid the cost for the stupidity of their govt. that day.

I believe that Bush has already said that the UN will decided what happen to post-saddam Iraq.


its done so without the approval of the UN.....by all the terms of the UN charter shouldn't sanctions be imposed on america? then again that can't be done as america is one of the big 5.

This time we have a bigger coalition than last time: the only thing that stood in our way was French and Germans.


the UN was always a weak and ineffective body. it was supposed to be an organization based on equality and fairness, but how can that be achieved when any one of 5 nations have the power to render the opinion of the 189 other members of the UN void?

Once again, more nations support this war then previously.


who supplied iraq with arms in the first place-the west. america's policy of being global policeman is sickening.... the much vaunted american military technology has come to naught.....the old 1970s and 1980s soviet equipment is holding up well against the american tech.

Yeah that Russian sub that sank to the bottom of the ocean held up real well. Iraq was supplied arms when they were on our side, 20 years ago.


though i don't want american soldiers to die, or for that matter iraqi soldiers.... i sincerely hope that iraq defeats america. i find the holier than thou attitude of the american govt. to be quite sickening......it armed the afghan mujahideen and it payed the consequences through sept.11. the people of america paid the cost for the stupidity of their govt. that day.

To this, I just roll my eyes.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Balder1

Great, more communist disinformation. What countries are these, jps? I'm sure the United States would like nothing more than to break up these dictorships/theocracies/monarchies.

Yuhuh, sure.....I don't suppose you're aware of our relationships with the dictatorial regimes in saudi arabia, pakistan, and kuwait(for a few examples)

exactly...america dosen't have the approval of the UN because of the unequal nature of the organization. even if all the nations except france support the resolution...if france vetoes it, nothing can be done.

That america dosen't have the support of the UN due to france and germany just reinforces my point.

btw....many other nations also do not support this war....not just france and germany...all member nations of NAM for instance.

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom and Uzbekistan. The State Department listed Japan as available for "post-conflict" support.

Oh and did I mention the 18 European nations? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53997-2003Feb10.html

a very small constituent of all the countries of the world....
wat about all the asian countries.....korea and japan are one of the few that support the war......the rest do not.....

the world consists of many more countries....not just your list.

Aria, most of the countries that do not support the US, hate the US. Or they just don't care. Also, some countries aren't even part of the UN, go figure.

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
I believe that Bush has already said that the UN will decided what happen to post-saddam Iraq.

Bush will give up control to $trillions in ill-gotten oil? That would be awfully nice of him. Blair recently met with Bush to implore him to let the UN have a major role in New Iraq. Bush nixed that idea. The UN will have only a humanitarian role, the new dictator said.


From here (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/27/sprj.irq.bush.blair.reut/index.html):

Blair -- under fire at home for joining the Americans in an attack that lacked U.N. support -- wants full U.N. involvement in Iraq's administration if President Saddam Hussein is ousted.

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said on Wednesday Washington would not cede control of Iraq to the United Nations.

Just for the record, it is Operation Iraqi Freedom.
NOT Operaration Iraqi Liberation (O.I.L.);)

Thank god it's not operation infinite justice or Jesus rocks and rolls.

Avata

the much vaunted american military technology has come to naught.....the old 1970s and 1980s soviet equipment is holding up well against the american tech

Looks to me like that American military technology has pretty much chewed up and spit out that Soviet equipment.

Originally posted by Balder1
I support the war because I think it will bring much needed democracy, freedom, and prosperity to Iraq in the long run, and eventually serve to weaken the bastion of terrorism and religious fanaticism in the Middle East.

So, I'll keep it short. Am I wrong? Will Iraq benefit from this war in the long run? Will it serve as a stepping stone for more freedom in the Middle East? Why or why not?

NICE TRY--BUT NO CIGAR, BALDER1.

TAC: Perhaps we ( America ) will help to establish another state where the empowered minority will savage and abuse the majority. A place where your ID card determines how you are treated--what part of town you live in; what voting rights you have-if any; where your children go to school ( a dump or a nice modern school ); a place where your teenagers and young men are taught how to shoot children dead from 1,000 yards away with a sniperscope; a place where you can be shot for protesting--or your house burned down--the actions of the government, a nation where there is no written CONSTITUION, no BILL OF RIGHTS and no defined BORDERS, even!

Yassir, the absurdity of calling oneself a democracy ( small "d" ) in the Zionist State of Israel is getting to be too much for the rest of the "civilized" world! :D

TheAZCowBoy,

Jesus rocks and rolls.

:D

Cowboy,

Are you explaining how it currently is in Iraq:rolleyes:

We didnt make Isreal.

I was against the decision to go to war and I wish my government would have put more effort into diplomatically dismantling the Iraqi regime. We have effectively undermined the UN and look like bullies and aggressors.

However, now that the war is ongoing and hopefully will not last too long...I do think it is better for the Iraqi people. I believe a better nation can be built (can't do any worse than saddam). I do think some areas in the middle east and elsewhere will have an even further rise in anti-US sentiment, but you can't win everyone's heart in this world.

One thing I find funny is how people scream that we are oppressors and we push our view of the world on other cultures. Take a hard look at saddam and his cronies and then try and tell me that the people of iraq are better off under his thumb.

Salty, just take fading captain's argument, substitute "Jews" where he says "Iraqis", "Arabs" for "Saddam" and ask who gave the zionists their weapons, and still does today. There, two birds with one intifadeh stone.

Originally posted by hypewaders
Salty, just take fading captain's argument, substitute "Jews" where he says "Iraqis", "Arabs" for "Saddam" and ask who gave the zionists their weapons, and still does today. There, two birds with one intifadeh stone.

Ok ill do that...

"I was against the decision to go to war and I wish my government would have put more effort into diplomatically dismantling the Jews regime. We have effectively undermined the UN and look like bullies and aggressors.

However, now that the war is ongoing and hopefully will not last too long...I do think it is better for the Jews people. I believe a better nation can be built (can't do any worse than saddam). I do think some areas in the middle east and elsewhere will have an even further rise in anti-US sentiment, but you can't win everyone's heart in this world.

One thing I find funny is how people scream that we are oppressors and we push our view of the world on other cultures. Take a hard look at Arabs and his cronies and then try and tell me that the people of Jews are better off under his thumb."

So hyperwaders you want the US to rebuild palestine and Isreal? You also think the Arabs are in control of Isreal hypewaders?

Originally posted by airavata
america has no right to invade iraq. its done so without the approval of the UN.....by all the terms of the UN charter shouldn't sanctions be imposed on america? then again that can't be done as america is one of the big 5.

the UN was always a weak and ineffective body. it was supposed to be an organization based on equality and fairness, but how can that be achieved when any one of 5 nations have the power to render the opinion of the 189 other members of the UN void?

who supplied iraq with arms in the first place-the west. america's policy of being global policeman is sickening.... the much vaunted american military technology has come to naught.....the old 1970s and 1980s soviet equipment is holding up well against the american tech.

though i don't want american soldiers to die, or for that matter iraqi soldiers.... i sincerely hope that iraq defeats america. i find the holier than thou attitude of the american govt. to be quite sickening......it armed the afghan mujahideen and it payed the consequences through sept.11. the people of america paid the cost for the stupidity of their govt. that day.

TAC: I am always shocked to hear that the biggest nation user of drugs, perversions galore, the morals of a Hyena in heat, a nation that warehouses its elders and has no respect for them--should serve as the "model" for the rest of the world! :(

TheAZCowBoy....

The US isint amsterdam ;)

Unnecessary presciption drugs are much worse for you than a little :m: .

Originally posted by Balder1
I support the war because I think it will bring much needed democracy, freedom, and prosperity to Iraq in the long run, and eventually serve to weaken the bastion of terrorism and religious fanaticism in the Middle East.

So, I'll keep it short. Am I wrong? Will Iraq benefit from this war in the long run? Will it serve as a stepping stone for more freedom in the Middle East? Why or why not?

TAC: After seeing Israeli democracy ( small "d" ); that 1/2 acre of Zionist hell where you are a nobody unless you have the big "J" ( Judaism ) printed in your ID card. Where your kids attend a mediocre school if they are not Jewish. Where you cannot buy nor own land if you are an Arab. A nation with no written CONSTITUTION, no BILL OF RIGHTS and no defined BORDERS....

I say, 4Get it!

TheAZCowBoy,

When I traveled in Tel-Aviv, I did not have a big J printed on my ID card. I am not a Jew, and I don't believe in Judaism. I was still welcome there, though. Your entire post starts off with a lie, and you expect us to believe the rest?

And actually, you can buy and own land if you're an Arab. Lie #2.

Original Message-
-----------------------------------
I support the war because I think it will bring much needed democracy, freedom, and prosperity to Iraq in the long run, and eventually serve to weaken the bastion of terrorism and religious fanaticism in the Middle East.
-----------------------------------

My Reply-

1) Agreed Iraq needs democracy and freedom...
But how should it be implemented ? By totally ignoring the UN and more importantly, ignoring most of the nations ?
Bush is himself being dictatorial to bring about 'democracy' in Iraq !! Is this not a contradiction ??

2) Who has originally nurtured and supported Iraqi Leadership to fight against Iran? US. Of late it had not been serving US interests, that's why there is sudden talk of democracy and freedom!!

3) How can one expect to bring prosperity to a country by killing so many of its citizens/civilians. People should be 'alive' to experience prosperity, my friend !!

4) More than prosperity to Iraq, it would bring extra prosperity to US. In terms of oil and other contracts. Thats the real motive of war.

5) Do you really think the terrorism and religious fanaticism would now reduce ?? Well, it would now INCREASE !! So many people across the world would have become much more angry now. How do you think would they give vent to their anger ??

To sum up, this war does not have any moral ground. It is being fought only for vested interests. Its not going to do any good to the world.

Hence I do not think it is worth supporting the war.

1) Agreed Iraq needs democracy and freedom...
But how should it be implemented ? By totally ignoring the UN and more importantly, ignoring most of the nations ?
Bush is himself being dictatorial to bring about 'democracy' in Iraq !! Is this not a contradiction ??
By totally ignoring the U.N.? Yes, they are irrelevant.
By ignoring most of the nations? Hmm, it is hardly unilateral action. But there are nations and people opposed to freeing Iraq's citizens. And while they may use the excuse "well, being anti-war doesn't mean we support Saddam," let me tell you, SADDAM SUPPORTS YOU!.

How is Bush being dictatorial? As far as I know he was democratically elected, Congress authorized the use of military action, and Congress was also voted for by the people. Not to mention he has a 81% approval rating right now concerning military action in the Middle East. Tsk. Think before you write.

You can't impose a democracy, but you can bring conditions about that will allow a democracy to flow from it.


3) How can one expect to bring prosperity to a country by killing so many of its citizens/civilians. People should be 'alive' to experience prosperity, my friend !! Hmm, of course the fact that they are yelling "You are welcome America" means nothing right? And by not supporting the war, you support Saddam (whether you like it or not, you are indirectly supporting him and he is supporting you) and his actions of murdering his own people. Why don't you bring that to light?


4) More than prosperity to Iraq, it would bring extra prosperity to US. In terms of oil and other contracts. Thats the real motive of war. Right, and when we invade North Korea it is going to be all about rice.


5) Do you really think the terrorism and religious fanaticism would now reduce ?? Well, it would now INCREASE !! So many people across the world would have become much more angry now. How do you think would they give vent to their anger ?? I don't think it will increase, but I don't think it will reduce dramatically. I fail to see why the people that are cheering the Americans on in the streets in Iraq will now suddenly resort to terrorism. They even had to fly in suicide bombers from Palestine to keep up the image of anti-American because the locals were so overjoyed to see the Americans they even gave food to the soldiers...

Originally posted by chim
Original Message-
-----------------------------------
I support the war because I think it will bring much needed democracy, freedom, and prosperity to Iraq in the long run, and eventually serve to weaken the bastion of terrorism and religious fanaticism in the Middle East.
-----------------------------------

My Reply-

1) Agreed Iraq needs democracy and freedom...
But how should it be implemented ? By totally ignoring the UN and more importantly, ignoring most of the nations ?
Bush is himself being dictatorial to bring about 'democracy' in Iraq !! Is this not a contradiction ??

2) Who has originally nurtured and supported Iraqi Leadership to fight against Iran? US. Of late it had not been serving US interests, that's why there is sudden talk of democracy and freedom!!

3) How can one expect to bring prosperity to a country by killing so many of its citizens/civilians. People should be 'alive' to experience prosperity, my friend !!

4) More than prosperity to Iraq, it would bring extra prosperity to US. In terms of oil and other contracts. Thats the real motive of war.

5) Do you really think the terrorism and religious fanaticism would now reduce ?? Well, it would now INCREASE !! So many people across the world would have become much more angry now. How do you think would they give vent to their anger ??

To sum up, this war does not have any moral ground. It is being fought only for vested interests. Its not going to do any good to the world.

Hence I do not think it is worth supporting the war.

TAC: The US could do well to bring true democracy the that 1/2 acre of Zionist hell called ( by the world ) Apartheidnik/Israel, huh? :D

Then it can point fingers.........

TheAZCowBoy,