View Full Version : Why did Bin Laden turn to hit america


Sky
11-14-04, 01:33 AM
Well he was an american agent to fight the russians

America gave him tools and financial motivation to fight USSR

he gave his army religious motivations to fight with him


but what motivations made him turn to america and the west ??

If he is the islam sword , would in it be more at the point that he fights israel or continue fighting russia , as in muslims eyes they occupy thier lands and kill their children in palestine and cheshnia ,

conclusion he is not fighting to protect the muslims , does he just want to kill people so he goes to heaven ???

Or is the terrorists network large enough now that they want to kill every other religion on the planet ??

vslayer
11-14-04, 01:56 AM
he is not trying to eleminate religion, he is doing what no-one else had the balls to do, and say: fuck you america, you screwed me now i screw you.

it is not about religion, him and his followers want freedom not death

Sky
11-14-04, 02:13 AM
he is not trying to eleminate religion, he is doing what no-one else had the balls to do, and say: fuck you america, you screwed me now i screw you.

it is not about religion, him and his followers want freedom not death


Dear i am not sure how this convince u

but if u pay me to murder X and after i am done with him i turn to kill your children , i do not see any freedom in that

kazakhan
11-14-04, 03:35 AM
but what motivations made him turn to america and the west ??
Americas foreign policies...

nirakar
11-14-04, 05:57 AM
America, home of Britney Spears, Baywatch, grab your crotch and dangle your baby out the window Michael Jackson, and sicko Howard Stern, land where one out of three marriages end in divorce,

America home of multinational corporations that corrupt all of the worlds politicians,

America that props up decadent despots in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and Kuwait,

America who's foreign policy hardliners lust to dominate the world because they can,

America that has no mercy for third world Civilians who get caught in the crossfire,

Bin Laden knows about the CIA connected drug trafficking rings,

America that talks about freedom and democracy while it topples democracies,

America that props up Israel which is slowly ethnically cleansing Muslims and America ignores UN resolutions whenever they don't like the resolution,

America that encouraged Kurds and Shiites to revolt repeatedly and the abandoned them repeatedly,

America that promotes the Clash of civilizations theory even though it is sick stupid theory,

If we were not us, we would rebel against us also.






I think Bin Laden actually hates the Saudi Royal family more than he hates people like Bush or anything else. In about 1920 the Saudi Royal family led a movement that took control of Saudi Arabia in the name of Islamic fundamentalism but most people now consider the Saudi Royal family to be immoral parasites and the ultimate hypocrites. Bin Laden overestimates the role that America plays in propping up the Royal family and thinks he must push America out of the Middle east as a first step to toppling the Saudi Royal family.

one_raven
11-14-04, 06:33 AM
bin Ladin's Declaration of War

Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans
Published in Al-Quds al-'Arabi on Febuary 23, 1998 (http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm)

Sky
11-14-04, 07:21 AM
Thanks for that

but that declaration " " is what Mr Ladin can use to convince his followers to fight america , and do suicide operations and go to heaven , but there is a question

Is this the same motivation for Mr Ladin himself to start the war ??

because americans humiliate muslims !!!

M-16
11-14-04, 07:52 AM
Its not that he turned agaisnt the U.S. The U.S. turned agaisnt him when he let them know that he wanted to expand his goals to liberating other occupied countries.

So i guess the U.S. made up Al'Qaeda to make him look bad and make his goals impossible.

Sky
11-14-04, 08:22 AM
but why would he care to liberate other countries

M-16
11-14-04, 08:31 AM
Because he is a Muslim and it is the duty of every Muslim to fight for the oppressed and for the occupied.

Sky
11-14-04, 08:40 AM
and why did not he think this way when he used to get support from america when fighting USSR or does values change with situations ?

Sky
11-14-04, 08:56 AM
!!?!!!

M-16
11-14-04, 09:07 AM
Oh i misunderstood your question, i guess he thought that the U.S was also going to help him fight other countries or just used the U.S to fight off the Soviets.

towards
11-14-04, 11:34 AM
"Because he is a Muslim and it is the duty of every Muslim to fight for the oppressed and for the occupied", M-16

I guess if you consider living under a tyranical religious autocracy like the Taliban a postive thing, then he wants to "liberate" the middle east.

I think his primary motivation has less to do with U.S. policy, and more to do with his attempt to drive a wedge between Saudi Arabia and America. He knows it would be much more difficult for the House of Saud to survive without American oil money, and his goal is basically revenge. He also would prefer to set up a goverment in his home country based on strict Wahhabism, so that his nation can live under a 12th century form of government. The ludicrous thing about this is that his family gained all of their money due to their connection and support of the House of Saud, so the hipocracy is certainly running strong.

Finally I think one of his primary motivations is the fact that he simply likes to play the "game", not unlike many homicidal serial killers enjoy doing. The unfortunate thing is this murderer has gained religious legitimacy, when in reality he just likes to kill.

Sky
11-14-04, 12:43 PM
i think also he just go used to his job , but when the Russians were gone he had to find another customer " "

the USA , and then as he found the supply of people willing to help him " " on the increase he decided to expand the business

From a business man point of view he has everything

1. financial support , i am sure many many donators around the world
2. human resources
3. Customers , just living their lives

Bingo market with no other supplier

milkweed
11-14-04, 05:02 PM
Well he was an american agent to fight the russians

America gave him tools and financial motivation to fight USSR

he gave his army religious motivations to fight with him


but what motivations made him turn to america and the west ??

If he is the islam sword , would in it be more at the point that he fights israel or continue fighting russia , as in muslims eyes they occupy thier lands and kill their children in palestine and cheshnia ,

conclusion he is not fighting to protect the muslims , does he just want to kill people so he goes to heaven ???

Or is the terrorists network large enough now that they want to kill every other religion on the planet ??

Here is a pbs bio on bin laden you may find interesting.
<BR>&nbsp;
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/bio.html
<BR>&nbsp;

M-16
11-14-04, 07:21 PM
"Because he is a Muslim and it is the duty of every Muslim to fight for the oppressed and for the occupied", M-16

I guess if you consider living under a tyranical religious autocracy like the Taliban a postive thing, then he wants to "liberate" the middle east.

I think his primary motivation has less to do with U.S. policy, and more to do with his attempt to drive a wedge between Saudi Arabia and America. He knows it would be much more difficult for the House of Saud to survive without American oil money, and his goal is basically revenge. He also would prefer to set up a goverment in his home country based on strict Wahhabism, so that his nation can live under a 12th century form of government. The ludicrous thing about this is that his family gained all of their money due to their connection and support of the House of Saud, so the hipocracy is certainly running strong.

Finally I think one of his primary motivations is the fact that he simply likes to play the "game", not unlike many homicidal serial killers enjoy doing. The unfortunate thing is this murderer has gained religious legitimacy, when in reality he just likes to kill.

So basicly according to you...hes not fighting for other people hes just a killer who wants to drive a wedge between Saudi Arabia and America because he hates the America.

:eek:

towards
11-15-04, 08:51 AM
"hes not fighting for other people hes just a killer who wants to drive a wedge between Saudi Arabia and America because he hates the America", M-16

No, he actually hates the Saudi Arabian government considerably more, and is looking to send his country back to the dark ages. A "freedom fighter" would not target thousands of civilians, when there are so many other possibilities that could have damaged his government. The man was looking for revenge, and was looking to kill as many people as possible. This is not a rational man's thinking.

M-16
11-15-04, 05:29 PM
Towards, there are people who don't believe that hes behind those attacks, they are bright enough to understand that terrorist acts are done in his name to put blame on him.

towards
11-15-04, 06:41 PM
"Towards, there are people who don't believe that hes behind those attacks", M-16

Then they are denying a plethora of evidence, including an easily followed trail of cash that can be traced right back to Osama. Every major news network reports this as true, every responsible government knows it to be true. One cannot help the ignorant. Do I question that there is a city of Paris in France and I have not seen it with my own eyes? No, I know its there, just as I know Osama is a murderer.

spidergoat
11-15-04, 06:51 PM
I don't think he turned against America, he was never with America, even while fighting the Russians. We used them (the mujahadeen) for our own purposes, and they used us for theirs. I think his aim is to unite all muslim countries into a new Islamic empire.

M-16
11-15-04, 07:28 PM
Haha he used the mujahadeen, too bad he fought along side of them.

spidergoat
11-16-04, 01:40 PM
huh?

vslayer
11-17-04, 01:48 AM
Dear i am not sure how this convince u

but if u pay me to murder X and after i am done with him i turn to kill your children , i do not see any freedom in that


bush senior gave OBL weapons to fight the taliban, but then once he had come out and openly fought, the americans turned and ran, leaving osama and his minions to be hunted by the taliban. no warning at all

path
11-17-04, 02:14 AM
Osama was hunted by the taliban? Please elaborate.

vslayer
11-17-04, 02:27 AM
once he and his friends had openly opposed the gvt wit US support, the govt knew exactly who they were so there was no turning back for them, but the US of course, keeping to its policy of a 100% fuck up rate, turned and left, they gould leave, but for OBL he has had to hide and run ever since, his life has been hell ever since he got involved with the americans. that is why i plan to stay a safe distance and just like OBL did, cripple the american war machine. no money = no war, no wall street = no money.

if OBL had enough planes he wolud have hit wall street too, but now that his support has died to the point where he has almost no power, i must finish it for him

path
11-17-04, 03:35 AM
So when do you mean that the taliban changed their tune and decided to like osama and host him in afghanistan?

PS a very noble enterprise you are undertaking there vslayer you must be the first 15 year old jihadi from your neighborhood and will no doubt be of great service in toppling the corrupt american regime ;)

usa matt
07-24-10, 10:46 AM
america is always helping your sorry asses out our country is hurt now from wasting money trying to save you ungrateful ass holes from being gassed and your own people raped and killed america says fuck u all and why does everyone want to come here so bad then u fucking morons

countezero
07-24-10, 11:06 AM
Osama was never an American agent and he never fought for the Muj. People really need to read some books and quit oversimplifying.

Buffalo Roam
07-24-10, 11:23 AM
Haha he used the mujahadeen, too bad he fought along side of them.

Actually there is very little evidence that OBL engaged in combat along side the mujahadeen in Afghanistan, there is more evidence that He stayed in Pakistan as a recruiter of Arabs for the mujahadeen, and kept His skin in one piece, and created a net work of fighters that became Al Quiada, set on accomplishing bigger and better things.

ps: something I found as very funny, was on the spell checker;


mujahadeen is corrected to meathead

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-24-10, 11:51 AM
Americas foreign policies...

That was my answer.

Buffalo Roam
07-24-10, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by kazakhan
Americas foreign policies...


That was my answer.

Islamic bigotry and intolerance of all not Islam,.....religion, life style, sexual preference, thought word and deed.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-24-10, 05:31 PM
Islamic bigotry and intolerance of all not Islam,.....religion, life style, sexual preference, thought word and deed.

:rolleyes:

Really? You got all of that from my post? Interesting however it's silly, my comments can't be called Islamic "bigotry," in the least. I'm sorry America, hate to break it to you but not everyone thinks your as innocent as a lamb and never did anything wrong to anyone. You're about as innocent as a snake.

scifes
07-24-10, 05:46 PM
he is not trying to eleminate religion, he is doing what no-one else had the balls to do, and say: fuck you america, you screwed me now i screw you.

it is not about religion, him and his followers want freedom not death
:roflmao:
:thumbsup:

Skeptical
07-24-10, 11:21 PM
The irony of Al Qaeda, who claim to be fighting for Islam, is that they kill about 10 muslims for every single person outside Islam.

The main target of their murderous activities is other Muslims. This shows that their real goal is not religion, but power. Obama is no different to any other revolutionary wanting to make a place for himself in ruling over other people.

Buffalo Roam
07-24-10, 11:38 PM
The irony of Al Qaeda, who claim to be fighting for Islam, is that they kill about 10 muslims for every single person outside Islam.

The main target of their murderous activities is other Muslims. This shows that their real goal is not religion, but power. Obama is no different to any other revolutionary wanting to make a place for himself in ruling over other people.

Actually it is closer to 117 fellow Muslims per Infidel.

Buffalo Roam
07-24-10, 11:43 PM
:rolleyes:

Really? You got all of that from my post? Interesting however it's silly, my comments can't be called Islamic "bigotry," in the least. I'm sorry America, hate to break it to you but not everyone thinks your as innocent as a lamb and never did anything wrong to anyone. You're about as innocent as a snake.

I read, and the History of Islam is not Peace and Understanding for anything outside of Islam, outside the Ummah.

In Islam there are only two worlds;

"Dar'al Islam"

and

"Dar'al Harb"

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-25-10, 12:46 AM
In Islam there are only two worlds;

"Dar'al Islam"

and

"Dar'al Harb"

I am not amused. In America there is only two worlds, white and colored.

IamJoseph
07-25-10, 12:52 AM
I don't think he turned against America, he was never with America, even while fighting the Russians. We used them (the mujahadeen) for our own purposes, and they used us for theirs. I think his aim is to unite all muslim countries into a new Islamic empire.

I disagree they used it for their own purpose. While America was acting against Communism, which was a legitimate premise - the terror groups exposed themselves when they learnt how to use a gun.

IMHO, all blame goes on Britain which established the regimes - all for 30 barrels of oil. This is the singular reason for all of today's terrorism and mayhem, and constitutes the worst post-W.W.II crime ever perpetrated. Britian is a non-virtual Judas - but there is yet no trial being conducted.

IamJoseph
07-25-10, 12:55 AM
I am not amused. In America there is only two worlds, white and colored.

Disagree. Of all countries which faced this historical wrong, America is the one which eventually succeeded in overturning it. But for America, there would arguably be no black peoples rights and the Jewish people would not be around today. The Constitution is the greatest man made document humanity possesses.

S.A.M.
07-25-10, 12:57 AM
According to bin Laden, he didn't:


I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html

Additionally, according to the FBI he is not wanted for the attack on the WTC on September 11, 2001. You can check the FBI most wanted page about him.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-25-10, 01:14 AM
Disagree. Of all countries which faced this historical wrong, America is the one which eventually succeeded in overturning it. But for America, there would arguably be no black peoples rights and the Jewish people would not be around today. The Constitution is the greatest man made document humanity possesses.

I honestly can't take you seriously.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-25-10, 01:18 AM
According to bin Laden, he didn't:



Additionally, according to the FBI he is not wanted for the attack on the WTC on September 11, 2001. You can check the FBI most wanted page about him.

Very interesting indeed, jazakallah khair.

Giambattista
07-25-10, 02:27 PM
Let me just go out on a limb here and declare that bin Laden most likely had nothing at all to do with hating us for our freedoms, planes crashing, buildings exploding, FBI and CIA interfering with investigations, and the subsequent wars.

Funny it is indeed, that while al Qaeda supposedly hates us for our freedoms, that with the erosion of the Bill of Rights ongoing, soon, al Qaeda may have very little to hate us for!

I think bin Laden is probably dead, probably had nothing to do with 911, and al Qaeda is mostly propaganda.

Oh! I would also like to add that it seems the only difference between an ally/freedom fighter and a dictator/terrorist is that one receives U.S. support, and the other used to receive U.S. support!:p

StrawDog
07-25-10, 05:23 PM
Oh! I would also like to add that it seems the only difference between an ally/freedom fighter and a dictator/terrorist is that one receives U.S. support, and the other used to receive U.S. support!:p
He he. Keen observational skills. :m:

James R
07-25-10, 07:25 PM
america is always helping your sorry asses out our country is hurt now from wasting money trying to save you ungrateful ass holes from being gassed and your own people raped and killed america says fuck u all and why does everyone want to come here so bad then u fucking morons

Welcome to sciforums, matt. What a great way to start your time here. I'm sure you'll be here a long time.

Buffalo Roam
07-25-10, 09:57 PM
I am not amused. In America there is only two worlds, white and colored.

So you are not amused, :shrug: seems to be a common affliction among Muslims, and in my America color doesn't matter, in the America of my friends color doesn't matter, now Character, that is a entirely different matter.

Martin Luther King;


My four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

It seems to my observation, it is the liberals who all to often judge people by the Color of their Skin, and never even look at the Content of their Character.

pjdude1219
07-25-10, 10:51 PM
So you are not amused, :shrug: seems to be a common affliction among Muslims, and in my America color doesn't matter, in the America of my friends color doesn't matter, now Character, that is a entirely different matter.

Martin Luther King;


My four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

It seems to my observation, it is the liberals who all to often judge people by the Color of their Skin, and never even look at the Content of their Character.

and as most of your observations have very little to do with reality and more to do with your own ideology and wishes.

Giambattista
07-26-10, 01:31 AM
He he. Keen observational skills. :m:

Thank you.

I have excellent eyesight.

countezero
07-26-10, 11:28 AM
According to bin Laden, he didn't:



Additionally, according to the FBI he is not wanted for the attack on the WTC on September 11, 2001. You can check the FBI most wanted page about him.

Spewing bullshit, as usual...

Buffalo Roam
07-26-10, 07:59 PM
But Osmam Bin Laden is wanted by the FBI;


FBI Ten Most
Wanted Fugitive

MURDER OF U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; CONSPIRACY TO MURDER U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; ATTACK ON A FEDERAL FACILITY RESULTING IN DEATH



USAMA BIN LADEN

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.jpg

Date of Photograph Unknown


Aliases: Usama Bin Muhammad Bin Ladin, Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin, the Prince, the Emir, Abu Abdallah, Mujahid Shaykh, Hajj, the Director

DESCRIPTION


Date of Birth: 1957 Hair: Brown
Place of Birth: Saudi Arabia Eyes: Brown
Height: 6' 4" to 6' 6" Complexion: Olive
Weight: Approximately 160 pounds Sex: Male
Build: Thin Nationality: Saudi Arabian
Occupation: Unknown
Remarks: Bin Laden is the leader of a terrorist organization known as Al-Qaeda, "The Base". He is left-handed and walks with a cane.
Scars and Marks: None



CAUTION

USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.


CONSIDERED ARMED AND EXTREMELY DANGEROUS


IF YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION CONCERNING THIS PERSON, PLEASE CONTACT YOUR LOCAL FBI OFFICE OR THE NEAREST U.S. EMBASSY OR CONSULATE.


REWARD

The Rewards For Justice Program, United States Department of State, is offering a reward of up to $25 million for information leading directly to the apprehension or conviction of Usama Bin Laden. An additional $2 million is being offered through a program developed and funded by the Airline Pilots Association and the Air Transport Association.


June 1999
Poster Revised November 2001

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-27-10, 11:00 PM
So you are not amused, :shrug: seems to be a common affliction among Muslims, and in my America color doesn't matter, in the America of my friends color doesn't matter, now Character, that is a entirely different matter.

Slavery didn't end in the United States till near the end of the 1800s. The civil rights movement didn't happen until the 1960s. The beating of Rodney King happened in 1992. You're longest-serving Senator was a former member of the KKK, a vigilante group which also still exists in the US and has since the late 19th century. A Baptist church was bombed which killed 4 black children and injured 22 other people in 1963. A Jewish School in Los Angeles was shot up in 1999. Am I really to believe that America is a colorblind paradise?

Skeptical
07-27-10, 11:14 PM
There is no such thing as a nation that has no xenophobia. America has racism, as does my country.

In Muslim nations, prejudice is rife towards non Muslims. Even against Muslims of different sects. Sunni and Shiite kill each other in substantial numbers. This is prejudice that is every bit as bad, if not a lot worse, than racism in America, or anywhere else.

Giambattista
07-28-10, 04:01 AM
Slavery didn't end in the United States till near the end of the 1800s. The civil rights movement didn't happen until the 1960s. The beating of Rodney King happened in 1992. You're longest-serving Senator was a former member of the KKK, a vigilante group which also still exists in the US and has since the late 19th century. A Baptist church was bombed which killed 4 black children and injured 22 other people in 1963. A Jewish School in Los Angeles was shot up in 1999. Am I really to believe that America is a colorblind paradise?

Racial crime doesn't strike me as a huge problem. Not violent racial crime. Unless you call the ghettos that came from decades ago and the black on black (to use an example) crime that occurs there as ultimately white on black crime, then it really isn't a big problem.


A Recent Racially-Motivated Crime (http://www.king5.com/news/local/Attack-on-West-Seattle-teen-a-hate-crime-95196984.html)


SEATTLE – Seattle Police are investigating to determine if an attack on a 16-year-old West Seattle boy was racially motivated.

...
...

Asking him first for a light, they then attacked him, kicking and hitting him and threatening him with a gun, said McClellan.

"They started punching, knocked him down, kicking him, robbed him of everything, stole his coat, shoved him to the ground, stuck a gun in the back of his head," described McClellan. "I can't tell you what it's like to see and not even be able to recognize your son."

McClellan says they also burned the back of Shane's neck with cigarette butts before taking out a belt and making the racially-charged comments.

Oh, those filthy white Americans, right?!? But wait, if you only read the link...

This purports to be accurate, but I only included it just because! I make no vouching noises as to it's accuracy.
http://www.racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/images/stats/US_interacial03.gif

From an ostensibly black female conservative blog.. (http://issuesviews.blogspot.com/2008/04/black-crime_8678.html)

For the years 1995-2002, interracial murder is as follows (http://www.racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/005/06-02.htm)
Black on White : 4,044
White on Black : 1,676

They link to several spreadsheets on FBI. Latest for those was 2002. (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/xl/02tbl2-8.xls)
White on black murder is about half that of black on white.

Of course, once we weed out all the racially-based convictions, we can still blame white people for all the problems of black people, because, well, it's FUN!!!

It's not actually easy finding some of those statistics. The DOJ and FBI sites have their various data dispersed and I found it difficult to navigate them, especially since I wasn't even fathoming getting into this subject, but felt it was required as an adequate response.
And of course, obviously ultra-conservative/pro-white websites seem to be keen on this, so I am trying to avoid those sites.*

One site that seemed more reasonable was:
Interracial Crime (http://www.examiner.com/x-18525-Rochester-Crime-History-Examiner~y2009m9d21-Interracial-crime)

FBI statistics show that blacks commit 90% of interracial crime

1. African -Americans commit 90% of the approximately 1,700,000 interracial crimes of violence that occur in the United States every year, and are more than 50 times more likely to commit vioent crime against whites than vice versa.

Hate Crimes and Special Victims: An Un-American Story (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/06/hate_crimes_and_special_victim.html)

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Murder_and_non-negligible_homicide), white on black homicide was 7.6% of homicides committed by whites, while black on white homicide was 13.8% of homicides committed by blacks.

Then there's this... (http://guywhite.wordpress.com/race-crime-statistical-profile/)

He calls himself Guy White, so, uh, whatever.

I am going to assume that probably black on white crime is reported (or minority on majority period) more often than the other way around. Still, it seems like alot of white on black crime is hyped up as racially motivated or better yet, a hate crime.

Yeah, us filthy white people. We have so much to atone for. I feel so ashamed of my skin color. :o

:rolleyes:


*note that due to this topic involving way more sifting through of government statistics than I was prepared to engage in, and the fact that this is a controversial subject, I will not make any guarantees as to the validity of ANY of the statistics posted here

Giambattista
07-28-10, 04:09 AM
And as far as colorblindness goes, stark racial differences are immediately recognized even unconsciously. I saw some studies about that one time, but I'm not going to bother looking any up right now.

Needless to say, those who dream of a truly color-blind society are doing just that: dreaming.

Buffalo Roam
07-28-10, 10:16 AM
Slavery didn't end in the United States till near the end of the 1800s. The civil rights movement didn't happen until the 1960s. The beating of Rodney King happened in 1992. You're longest-serving Senator was a former member of the KKK, a vigilante group which also still exists in the US and has since the late 19th century. A Baptist church was bombed which killed 4 black children and injured 22 other people in 1963. A Jewish School in Los Angeles was shot up in 1999. Am I really to believe that America is a colorblind paradise?

We fought a war that ended slavery in 1865 with the passage of the XIII Amendment.

A Democratic Senator, and not mine.

Slavery still is practiced across Africa by Muslims.

And how many Black children have been enslaved and murdered by the Muslim Janjaweed in Sudan.



A Jewish School in Los Angeles was shot up in 1999

By a Muslim.

Yes, Islam is so color blind, and tolerant of conflicting religious belief, even among themselves

countezero
07-28-10, 11:18 AM
Slavery didn't end in the United States till near the end of the 1800s. The civil rights movement didn't happen until the 1960s. The beating of Rodney King happened in 1992. You're longest-serving Senator was a former member of the KKK, a vigilante group which also still exists in the US and has since the late 19th century. A Baptist church was bombed which killed 4 black children and injured 22 other people in 1963. A Jewish School in Los Angeles was shot up in 1999. Am I really to believe that America is a colorblind paradise?

No one is denying America, like all nations, has racial issues. But I would love for you to attempt to show me a nation that is more multiracial and more tolerant of those races than America. I think you would be pretty hard pressed to come up with one.

Oh, and in case you have not noticed, we now have a black president. What are the odds that could happen in the democracies in Europe? Or Asia?

superstring01
07-28-10, 11:28 AM
No one is denying America, like all nations, has racial issues. But I would love for you to attempt to show me a nation that is more multiracial and more tolerant of those races than America. I think you would be pretty hard pressed to come up with one.

Oh, and in case you have not noticed, we now have a black president. What are the odds that could happen in the democracies in Europe? Or Asia?

You're missing a bigger point, Counte.

Europe just got done wiping out the Jews and and starving million in gulags and "five year plans".

South America's biggest slave nation (Brazil) didn't ban slavery until the 1880's (after the USA), only shrugged off most it's dictators a few decades ago, and have found numerous cases of slavery even to this day.

Africa still has slaves and is actively exterminating various pesky popuations.

Saudi Arabia finally banned slavery (but not for women, who are still property of their husbands) in the 1960's. The rest of the Islamic world still carries out such wonders as clitorectomies, stonings and witch burnings.

And, Aisia? Well, you have the amazing people like Pol Pot killing 9 million of his own people, China's Mao driving an estimated 50 million to their graves (Cultural Revolution anybody?), North Korea's stellar human right's record and Japan being second only to Germany for wartime cruelty.

So, when compared to our contemporaries, the USA is hardly innocent, but surely ain't even close when it comes to despicable behavior.

~String

spidergoat
07-28-10, 11:29 AM
The USA still has a huge slave trade.

superstring01
07-28-10, 11:32 AM
The USA still has a huge slave trade.

How huge is "huge" Spider?

Identifying lawlessness is one thing. Sure. I don't doubt it. But quantify it and explain how it doesn't happen in numbers greater than other nations.

~String

spidergoat
07-28-10, 11:37 AM
There have been incidents of slavery amongst illegal immigrants working in agriculture. The Immokalee region in southern Florida, which grows most of the tomatoes eaten in the United States during the cold months, has had many cases of slavery. Since 1997, several prosecutions have resulted in over 1,000 slaves being freed.[137]

In 2002, the U.S. Department of State repeated an earlier CIA estimate[141] that each year, about 50,000 women and children are brought against their will to the United States for sexual exploitation.[142] {wiki}

countezero
07-28-10, 01:48 PM
Yes, but the point is that this is illegal and it is being attacked legally. One can never wipe out vice, Spider. And citing its mere existence in no way proves it is a social norm. It also certainly does not even speak to the racial issue, since human trafficking is race-blind and exploits ALL peoples.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-28-10, 02:14 PM
No one is denying America, like all nations, has racial issues. But I would love for you to attempt to show me a nation that is more multiracial and more tolerant of those races than America. I think you would be pretty hard pressed to come up with one.

I think it's funny how all the White Americans instantly got enraged by my comments when really, I'm commenting on a system that you yourself have and do benefit from, consciously or not.


Oh, and in case you have not noticed, we now have a black president.

Oh? I guess I forgot to congratulate you, you've filled your quota. This changes everything now that you have the representative/spokesmen of all American black people in office. Of course.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-28-10, 02:24 PM
A Democratic Senator, and not mine.

Whoopie-de-do Basil.


And how many Black children have been enslaved and murdered by the Muslim Janjaweed in Sudan.

Sorry, despite the Arabic name there is nothing Muslim about the Janjaweed.


By a Muslim.

Yes, Islam is so color blind, and tolerant of conflicting religious belief, even among themselves

Are you even fucking serious? Do I need to inform you of your own history? Here is a picture of the man who did this:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02YKega1Ac913/340x.jpg

He was a member of the Aryan Nations group. His name was Buford O'Neal Furrow, Jr. I'm sorry, you can't blaim everything on the Muslims. :rolleyes:

Skeptical
07-28-10, 02:55 PM
Ja'far

No-one is blaming everything on Muslims. We are just telling you that Muslims are mere humans, like the rest of us. Xenophobia is found in every nation on Earth, Muslim or otherwise. To attack one group, like the USA, is to present an unbalanced and selectively blind viewpoint.

My own nation, New Zealand, is probably the least racist on Earth, or getting close. And yet our indigenous people are constantly presenting grievances.

There is no such thing as a colour blind country. Every nation is guilty. And if you attack another people for their racism, you are a hypocrite.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-28-10, 03:37 PM
No-one is blaming everything on Muslims. We are just telling you that Muslims are mere humans, like the rest of us. Xenophobia is found in every nation on Earth, Muslim or otherwise. To attack one group, like the USA, is to present an unbalanced and selectively blind viewpoint.

I am not attacking America per se more I am pointing out that this image that you all have crafted isn't true. Not only that but this precisely my point, Muslims are human. To attack one group, like Muslims, is to present an unbalanced and selectively blind viewpoint. ;)

StrawDog
07-28-10, 04:27 PM
I am not attacking America per se more I am pointing out that this image that you all have crafted isn't true. Not only that but this precisely my point, Muslims are human. To attack one group, like Muslims, is to present an unbalanced and selectively blind viewpoint. ;)
The damage done by Bush & Co. in stereotyping Muslims as "extremists" and "terrorists" via the media hyped "War on Terror", is at the root of much of the misguided negative opinions about Muslims we see on this board and in the western corporate Media.

Meanwhile, behind this distraction the real evildoers are operating. :m:

spidergoat
07-28-10, 04:36 PM
Well, Muslims do tend to be xenophobic bigots, just read the history of their interactions with minorities. In Palestine, they taught their children to spit and throw stones at Jews, and the Jews were not allowed to strike back. The Quran is full of disparaging passages about Jews, a reflection of Mohammad's own attempts at ethnic cleansing.

StrawDog
07-28-10, 04:48 PM
Well, Muslims do tend to be xenophobic bigots, just read the history of their interactions with minorities. In Palestine, they taught their children to spit and throw stones at Jews, and the Jews were not allowed to strike back. The Quran is full of disparaging passages about Jews, a reflection of Mohammad's own attempts at ethnic cleansing.
And the Talmud is more than a little disparaging about subhumans gentiles.
Xenophobia is a universal human trait most likely rooted in survival. Pointing fingers perpetuates the cycle. :m:

spidergoat
07-28-10, 05:14 PM
Just pointing where pointing is due.

StrawDog
07-28-10, 05:17 PM
Just pointing where pointing is due.
We are all guilty of pointing. :m:

Norsefire
07-28-10, 05:17 PM
Jews have done far worse than any Muslim. Just look at the 20th century atrocities committed by the Jews.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-28-10, 05:18 PM
Well, Muslims do tend to be xenophobic bigots, just read the history of their interactions with minorities. In Palestine, they taught their children to spit and throw stones at Jews, and the Jews were not allowed to strike back. The Quran is full of disparaging passages about Jews, a reflection of Mohammad's own attempts at ethnic cleansing.

What about 49:13? Prophet Musa (as) is mentioned extensively throughout al-Qur'an as are a number of the 'Jewish' prophets. What verses in al-Qur'an are disparaging towards Jews? Jews and Christians have always been refered to as ahl al-kitab ("people of the book"). Secondly, your conflating Jew and Irsaeli and it's this conflation on both sides which is the problem. What about Khutbatul Wada' of Muhammad (saw)?

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves."-Sahih Al-Bukhari, Hadith 1623, 1626, 6361.

This message exists in every version of the sermon mind you. If such 'xenophobia' or 'racism' exists within the Muslim world or community, it's not based in Islam but rather something else.

spidergoat
07-28-10, 06:04 PM
Islamic anti-semitism preceeded Zionism. Yes, there are mixed messages in the Quran about them, but the Quran is not all of Islam. Enough religious justification exists to encourage hatred, especially when circumstances are favorable to it. Jews were routinely humiliated, oppressed, and forced to pay a poll tax. When I get home I could look up some references for you.

Norsefire
07-28-10, 06:13 PM
Islamic anti-semitism preceeded Zionism. Yes, there are mixed messages in the Quran about them, but the Quran is not all of Islam. Enough religious justification exists to encourage hatred, especially when circumstances are favorable to it. And Jews sabotaged Europe, manipulate world banks, and created the conditions necessary for both World Wars.


Jews were routinely humiliated, oppressed, and forced to pay a poll tax.

I thought taxes were a "part of civilized society"? Those Jews better pay up or not use the roads right?

spidergoat
07-28-10, 06:33 PM
Ah, no they didn't, and the anti-semitism in Europe matched if not exceed that of Muslims. The pogroms in Russia began after a group of revolutionaries assassinated the Czar (only one of them was Jewish). Jews looked to the communist revolution for relief from the periodic massacres.

Taxes are reasonable, but Jews were taxed additionally only for being Jews. What roads are you talking about? Jews were deliberately maintained in poverty. Palestine didn't have any roads until the mid to late 19th century.

Buffalo Roam
07-28-10, 06:49 PM
Jews have done far worse than any Muslim. Just look at the 20th century atrocities committed by the Jews.

Please enlighten us as to what atrocities were committed by the Jews?

Buffalo Roam
07-28-10, 07:04 PM
Whoopie-de-do Basil..

Well talk to the liberals, they are the ones who elected him and believe that He changed His spots.

But still the XIII Amendment to the Constitution, adopted on December 6, 1865, ended slavery, but again guess what? Slavery still exist in Africa and the most prominent practitioners of Slavery in Africa are Muslims.


Sorry, despite the Arabic name there is nothing Muslim about the Janjaweed.

Ah, yes, it is never a Muslim who does the dirty deed, it is always those from Dar'al Harb who are the guilty one.


Are you even fucking serious? Do I need to inform you of your own history? Here is a picture of the man who did this:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02YKega1Ac913/340x.jpg

He was a member of the Aryan Nations group. His name was Buford O'Neal Furrow, Jr. I'm sorry, you can't blaim everything on the Muslims. :rolleyes:

And do you have any video of Him with a weapon, intimidation said voters?

Do you have any proof that the incident wasn't fully investigated by the FBI, and then dismissed because there was no evidence of Voter Intimidation, or are you running with the Howling Pack of the Mad Dogs of Equivalence?

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-28-10, 07:25 PM
But still the XIII Amendment to the Constitution, adopted on December 6, 1865, ended slavery, but again guess what? Slavery still exist in Africa and the most prominent practitioners of Slavery in Africa are Muslims.

You're missing the point.


Ah, yes, it is never a Muslim who does the dirty deed, it is always those from Dar'al Harb who are the guilty one.

I figured you would say this however what do horse-riding bandits roaming across Sudan have to do with Islam? Because they have an Arabic name? Thievery and banditry have nothing at all to do with Islam. This is like trying to link the Thuggee to Hinduism and then saying it has everything to do with Hindus/Indians in general.


And do you have any video of Him with a weapon, intimidation said voters?

Do you have any proof that the incident wasn't fully investigated by the FBI, and then dismissed because there was no evidence of Voter Intimidation, or are you running with the Howling Pack of the Mad Dogs of Equivalence?

Let me ask this question, what the fuck does any of that have to do with anything that I have said? The fact is, the man targeted and shot up a Jewish School in LA and hit children, might I add. He was White and a member of the Aryan Nations group, why are you trying to deny the fact that this did happen? Also, why are you trying to put the blame on Muslims?

pjdude1219
07-28-10, 08:10 PM
Just pointing where pointing is due.

No just trying to create hate to garner sympathy for those who don't deserve it off topic too.

James R
07-28-10, 08:51 PM
Moderator note: Norsefire has been banned from sciforums for 7 days for anti-semitism

Buffalo Roam
07-28-10, 08:54 PM
You're missing the point.

And what point is that? That we of the Dar'al Harb are the evil ones.

Sorry it has been illegal to own slaves in this country since 1865, and any time that any slavery is uncovered in the United Sates it is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and it is a fact that in Africa legal slavery still exist, and that if you are from the House of Dar'al Islam, you will get a pass.


I figured you would say this however what do horse-riding bandits roaming across Sudan have to do with Islam? Because they have an Arabic name? Thievery and banditry have nothing at all to do with Islam. This is like trying to link the Thuggee to Hinduism and then saying it has everything to do with Hindus/Indians in general.

Well let see, The Sudan is a Islamic controlled government in the North, it has instituted a program on Islamization of the Sudan, and the imposition of Sharia law, the Government in the north is the employers and pay masters of the Janjaweed, and the United Nations definition;


The Janjaweed comprised Arab tribes, the core of whom are from the Abbala Rizeigat (camel herder) background with significant Lambo recruitment from the Baggara (cattle herder) people

Arab Muslims, Bedouin, majority Sunni, minority Shia, and other religions.


Let me ask this question, what the fuck does any of that have to do with anything that I have said? The fact is, the man targeted and shot up a Jewish School in LA and hit children, might I add. He was White and a member of the Aryan Nations group, why are you trying to deny the fact that this did happen? Also, why are you trying to put the blame on Muslims?

Your blind hypocrisy, to the major problems of Islam and your religious bigotry encoded in Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".


The fact is, the man targeted and shot up a Jewish School in LA and hit children, might I add. He was White and a member of the Aryan Nations group,

Really, and just when did this happen?

And if it did, guess what, that man would have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, the only incident I can find even close to your example was a Neo Nazi who shot up a Jewish community center , and is now serving a life sentence.

Now how about the myriad of attacks by Muslims against Jewish School Children across Israel, Middle East and the world?

This covers only up to 2004;

Timeline of School Terrorism - Safe Havens International
The jeep was escorting a bus of 40 elementary school children from Kfar Darom, ... area of a Jewish community center in Los Angeles and killed several children . ... school employees and two school security personnel were killed by gunman in ... to be the largest terrorist attack on a school related target to date. ...

http://www.schoolterrorism.com/timeline.html

selected incidents;

•May 8, 1970 - Palestinian terrorists attacked an Israeli School bus killing nine children and three adults. Nineteen others were also crippled for life. The terrorists apparently knew the bus schedule and planned their attack based on this knowledge.

•May, 1994 – four Chechens armed with grenades and firearms hijacked a bus filled with teachers, parents and children in Southern Russia . The hostages were released after a multi-million dollar ransom was paid.

•March, 1997 – Seven Israeli school girls were shot to death by a Jordanian soldier while on a field trip in Bakura , Jordan .

•November, 2000 – A bomb targeting a school bus exploded in the Gaza Strip settlement of Kfar Darom killing two passengers and wounding twelve others, including five school children.

•September, 2001 – Two people died and three more were injured in a terrorist attack on a minibus loaded with school and kindergarten teachers near the Adam Junction in Israel .

•November, 2001 – A Palestinian gunman killed two students and wounded more than forty other passengers when he attacked their bus with an M-16 rifle at a bus stop in Jerusalem . An armed bystander and members of the Israel Border Police stopped the attack when they killed the gunman.

•June 18, 2002 – A homicide bomber detonated himself on a bus headed towards Jersusalem. The bus, which was carrying many students on their way to school, was destroyed, leaving nineteen dead and seventy-four others wounded.

•November, 21, 2002 – A terrorist bomber killed eleven people and injured almost fifty others in Israel when he blew himself up on a bus crowded with school children. The terrorist group Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

•June 28, 2004 – One adult and one child were killed when a rocket fired by Hamas terrorists in the Gaza strip detonated in a nursery school in Sderot.

•September, 2004 – An attack by Chechen terrorists on a school in Belsan , Russia leaves hundreds dead and appears to be the largest terrorist attack on a school related target to date.

But I guess those children don't count as they are from Dar'al Harb.

countezero
07-28-10, 10:33 PM
I think it's funny how all the White Americans instantly got enraged by my comments when really, I'm commenting on a system that you yourself have and do benefit from, consciously or not.

You have no clue what my race or ethnicity is, nor do either matter to the points up for discussion here, which you would do well to remember.


Oh? I guess I forgot to congratulate you, you've filled your quota. This changes everything now that you have the representative/spokesmen of all American black people in office. Of course.

No, it does not change everything, which was never my argument, if you cared to read and try to follow it. My point was that the election of Obama is just another happening that proves America is far more tolerant of its widespread diversity that any other nation on Earth, because one cannot see a similar thing happening in any of the other democracies in Europe or Asia. I've challenged you to put forward a nation more tolerant than America. So far you haven't.

Skeptical
07-28-10, 10:45 PM
Buffalo

Your last post was seriously unbalanced. Certainly a lot of Muslims have killed Israelis. However, a hell of a lot more Muslims have been killed by Israelis. I am not sure of the ratio, but I know it is more than 10 dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli.

When you consider that all this began with America and Britain blatantly stealing the home of the Palestinian people, to hand it over to their Jewish friends, you have to admit that the evil done is massively greater on the Israeli side.

Of course, you cannot turn back the clock, and Israel is not going to cease to exist. But in view of the history, the Israelis should be bending over backwards to do everything they can to help the Palestinians. And they are doing the opposite.

The Jewish people were treated most abominably by Hitler's minions in WWII. Since WWII, those Jews who emigrated and became Israelis have been doing their damnedest to out-evil Hitler.

The fact that extremists among the Muslim people have been carrying out terrorist raids against Jews is not to be condoned. But you should at least have enough understanding to appreciate the degree of historical provocation.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-29-10, 12:04 AM
I will comment further on this post and others later however I wanted to comment on this for now.


Your blind hypocrisy, to the major problems of Islam and your religious bigotry encoded in Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".

You're being sensational here, please, let's not be silly. That isn't my argument at all. Do I think the West generally has an irrational fear and crazed ideas about Islam and Muslims? Yes, I think this stems from the Crusades period and how the West has historically viewed the East and the people thereof. I also, do admit that crimes have been commited, I admit this, I don't deny this. My argument is however that Islam and Muslims in general are not the problem. Nor does that mean that other Muslims outside of the area that is being discussed don't strongly object to the actions of some of our "brethren," nor does it mean that they have correct Islamic justification to do the things that they are doing. Meaning it's not an inherent part of Islam or Islamic practice. I have offered numerous religious arguments against X actions. I do realize that, yes, it is Muslims but you are grouping together bad apples with the rest of the bushel. Bad apples, extremists, and so on exist everywhere, in every group, in every nation around the world. It isn't an isolated problem. What you and others are doing/have been doing and arguing is that X actions by X Muslims reflect the ideas, beliefs and character of all Muslims, when this isn't the case. All of your examples are extreme and horrible examples that you then use to try to paint your own image of all Muslims and of Islam in general. This is why it's bigotry.

I have also noticed and not saying this is the case here, that some Americans and other Westerners have used 'Muslim' and 'Arab' synonymously which a lot of the times these "anti-Islamic," arguments stink of crypto-racism even if the person is or is not counsciously racist towards said group.

Buffalo Roam
07-29-10, 12:41 AM
You're being sensational here, please, let's not be silly. That isn't my argument at all.

Not be silly, and sensational, ah yes, and exactly then why did you reference;


I am not amused. In America there is only two worlds, white and colored.

Kind of a silly and sensational way to look at America.

Or how about this:


Slavery didn't end in the United States till near the end of the 1800s. The civil rights movement didn't happen until the 1960s. The beating of Rodney King happened in 1992. You're longest-serving Senator was a former member of the KKK, a vigilante group which also still exists in the US and has since the late 19th century. A Baptist church was bombed which killed 4 black children and injured 22 other people in 1963. A Jewish School in Los Angeles was shot up in 1999. Am I really to believe that America is a colorblind paradise?

Inaccurate history, broad brush, and the typical Muslim application of smug superiority because after all Islam, the Ummah, and Muslims are the People of Dar'al Islaml the chosen of Allah sent to chastise the infidel nonbeliever, and punish them for their idolatry and sins against Allah, and bring about the conversion of the Infidel or His destruction.

There is no radical Islam, there is no moderate Islam, there is only Islam,


‘There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his messenger’

Yes, I was taught that in Hawaii, (when I was younger and seeking), from a Immam, and that there is only, Dar'al Islam, and Dar'al Harb, and it is commanded by Allah to subjugate the lands of Dar'al Harb under the Rule of Dar'al Islam.

You don't like it because I hold up a mirror to you, a factual mirror of events today, and of past history, and Islam and Muslims have no room to throw any stones, today or in the past.

countezero
07-29-10, 01:22 AM
You don't even have to go there. Just look at all that diversity in the Muslim world, right?

Giambattista
07-29-10, 03:28 AM
You don't even have to go there. Just look at all that diversity in the Muslim world, right?

They seem to be more closed as a society, yes.



You don't like it because I hold up a mirror to you, a factual mirror of events today, and of past history, and Islam and Muslims have no room to throw any stones, today or in the past.

I don't think any country or culture has any room to throw any stones.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-30-10, 07:24 PM
And what point is that? That we of the Dar'al Harb are the evil ones.

No, that you have no room and no authority on which to cast judgement upon other peoples of whom you may very well be misinformed of to begin with.


Your blind hypocrisy, to the major problems of Islam and your religious bigotry encoded in Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".

That isn't my argument at all.


Really, and just when did this happen?

August 10, 1999, around 10:50 a.m PST.


And if it did, guess what, that man would have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, the only incident I can find even close to your example was a Neo Nazi who shot up a Jewish community center , and is now serving a life sentence.

Are you seriously this stupid? The incident you're talking about is the exact same incident that I am talking about, I even listed his name, his group affiliation, his mugshot, I mean, come on. :rolleyes:


Kind of a silly and sensational way to look at America.

Given you're history of genocide (see your history with the native peoples of the Americas) and slavery. Not only that if you're going to put things into such senstational and hysterical terms then so shall I.


There is no radical Islam, there is no moderate Islam, there is only Islam,

This is folly.


Yes, I was taught that in Hawaii, (when I was younger and seeking), from a Immam, and that there is only, Dar'al Islam, and Dar'al Harb

Oh, really? Then you should be well aware of the history of the terms now shouldn't you.


and it is commanded by Allah to subjugate the lands of Dar'al Harb under the Rule of Dar'al Islam.

Where? These divisions don't exist in al-Qur'an nor the Sunnah.


You don't like it because I hold up a mirror to you, a factual mirror of events today, and of past history, and Islam and Muslims have no room to throw any stones, today or in the past.

You have a pretty inflated and distored opinion of yourself.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-30-10, 07:25 PM
You don't even have to go there. Just look at all that diversity in the Muslim world, right?

Boo-hoo.

Buffalo Roam
07-30-10, 11:14 PM
No, that you have no room and no authority on which to cast judgement upon other peoples of whom you may very well be misinformed of to begin with.

And you as a Muslim do?


That isn't my argument at all.


("Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".)

Sorry, when you post;


Originally Posted by Ja'far at-Tahir
I am not amused. In America there is only two worlds, white and colored.

That is exactly what comes through as your rational.


August 10, 1999, around 10:50 a.m PST.

Are you sure It didn't happen, August 11, 1999, around 10:51 a.m PST?

And unlike so many of the Murder Suicide Bombers of Islam, that man was caught, tried and convicted, He wasn't promised 72 virgins in the the after life for his sexual gratification.


Are you seriously this stupid? The incident you're talking about is the exact same incident that I am talking about, I even listed his name, his group affiliation, his mugshot, I mean, come on. :rolleyes:

And I have to question you supposed intelligence, as you have just pointed out....

Mug Shot.....caught, tried, and convicted,......no free pass because He was on Jihad, not72 virgins for Him to ravish in the after life......straight to prison for the rest of His life.


Given you're history of genocide (see your history with the native peoples of the Americas) and slavery. Not only that if you're going to put things into such senstational and hysterical terms then so shall I.

There you go again,

("Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" and Dar'al Harb "is the only problem".)

How about the genocide of Hindus by Muslims in East Pakistan/Bangla Desh that was in the 1970tys.

Or how about the genocide being committed in Darfur by Muslims;

http://www.darfurscores.org/darfur

Or the Armenian Genocide, by the Ottoman Empire? again a Muslim committed Genocide against the unbelievers.

Yes, a Muslim could not commit genocide" You are just expounding said what every Muslim thinks. It is alway the kafir who is the problem.


This is folly.

Well? what is folly? Islam is Islam, isn't it, in the end what is the command to all Muslim, from Allah through his messenger Mohammed?

Destroy all who are not Islam, and reject the faith.



Oh, really? Then you should be well aware of the history of the terms now shouldn't you.

That is why I chose them, are you also aware of the term, Kitman or Taqqiya, some rather interesting tenets of Islam.


Where? These divisions don't exist in al-Qur'an nor the Sunnah.[/QOUTE]

Tariq Ramadan;

The doctrinal position of the salafi literalist and their groups in the West, which are in constant communication with scholars based primarily in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, or Syria (mostly through former students of their respective educational institutions), refuses any kind of involvement in a space that is considered non-Islamic. The concepts of dar al-kufr and dar al-harb[36] are still operational and continue to explain the relationship of the salafis with the social environment, which is characterized primarily by isolation and by a literally applied religious practice protected from Western cultural influences.[7]

[Political literalist Salafism] is trenchant, politicized, radical, and opposed to any idea of involvement or collaboration with Western societies, which is seen as akin to open treason. The Hizb al-Tahrir and Al-Muhajirun movements are the best known in Europe, and they call for jihad and opposition to the West (always considered as dar al-harb, the realm of war) by all means.[8]

Ramadan, Tariq. (2004). Western Muslims and the Future of Islam. (pp. 25-26). New York, NY: Oxford University Press.

http://books.google.com/books?id=0eCu4nXJbUUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=western+muslims+and+the+future+of+islam#v=onepa ge&q&f=false

[QUOTE=Ja'far at-Tahir;2592004] You have a pretty inflated and distored opinion of yourself.

No not really, after all I am only a Kaffir, and do not have the Blessing of Allah to chastise and enlighten the unbeliever, as you do.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-31-10, 01:12 AM
And you as a Muslim do?

No, my examples are merely putting things into perspective. Really, I'm pointing out that you're argument is tu quoque.


That is exactly what comes through as your rational.

How on earth is that quote providing rationale for a fictional belief of "Dar al-Islam 'does nothing wrong and Dar al-Harb 'is the only problem'"? It doesn't.


Are you sure It didn't happen, August 11, 1999, around 10:51 a.m PST?

It could have but really this is just pathetic and silly.


And unlike so many of the Murder Suicide Bombers of Islam, that man was caught, tried and convicted, He wasn't promised 72 virgins in the the after life for his sexual gratification.

Come on, the "blow myself up so I can get 72 virgins," shit is a myth. First off suicide is a sin, see relevant hadith here:

"Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.”-Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 445.

"Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak: ”And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection."-Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 73.

The only basis for this lie is a gharib/weak hadith.

"The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: “The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana’a [Yemen]."Jami' al-Tirmidhi Hadith 2562.

Note how it doesn't say anything about suicide. What does al-Qur'an say about suicide?

"You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable."-Al-Baqarah, 2:195, al-Qur'an.

"O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you."-An-Nisa, 4:29, al-Qur'an.

"Anyone who commits these transgressions, maliciously and deliberately, we will condemn him to Hell. This is easy for GOD to do."-An-Nisa, 4:30, al-Qur'an.

It's haram to kill merely on the account of kufr and it's also haram to kill non-combatants in Islamic Jurisprudence.

"Killing is only obligatory when facing warfare and armed combat not when facing kufr. For this reason, neither women are to be killed nor children, or the elderly, nor the blind nor those worshippers who do not fight, rather we fight against those who fight us. This was the way of the Messenger of Allaah in dealing with the people of the earth, he used to fight those who fought against him until they either entered into the deen, make an agreement or treaty with him or came under his authority via paying the jizya. This is what he used to instruct his armies if they fought against their enemies, as has preceded from the Hadeeth of Buraydah."-Ibnul Qayim, "Ahkaam Al Udh-Dhimmah," Vol 1, Page 17.

"About the saying of Allaah: "Fight in the way of Allaah against thse who fight you and do not trangress the limits. Indeed, Allaah does not love those who trangress". (Qur'an 2:190). The killing of women and children is included within this, and so are those who are not involved in warfare."-Umar ibn Abdul Aziz, "An Nawaadir wa'z-Ziyaadaat", Vol 3, Page 57.

"As for intending to attack those who are not fighting such as women, children, the elderly, those in monasteries, churches and the like - then this is not permissible, as long as they neither provide a benefit (to the enemy troops) via their views or strategies nor have committed murder."-Shaykh Abdullaah Al Basaam, "Tawdeeh ul Ahkaam bin Buluughil Maraam", Vol 6, Page 385.

"As for those who are not from the people who help and fight, such as women, children, the worshipper, the elderly, the blind, the disabled and the likes then they are not to be killed according to the majority of the Ulama' unless the person participates in fighting (against the Muslims) with speech or action. Even though some Ulama' permitted the killing of all merely on account of kufr, except for women and children which become for the Muslims. The first opinion (that non-combatants are not to be killed or fought against at all) is the most correct opinion, because fighting is only against whoever fights us when we want to manifest the deen of Allaah, just as Allaah says: "Fight in the way of Allaah against thse who fight you and do not trangress the limits. Indeed, Allaah does not love those who trangress". (Qur'an 2:190). In the Sunan is a Hadith from the Prophet that he passed by a woman who had been killed within a battle and the people had gathered around the body. The Prophet said: "This is not one who should be fought against", and sent the men away saying to one of them: "Tell Khalid not to kill children or workers". Also reported from him is that he said: "Do not kill a frail elderly man or a young child or a woman."-Ibn Taymiyah, "As Siyaasah Ash Shariyah", Page 177.

"The foundation is that the blood of Bani Aadam is sanctified and inviolable and no one is killed except with right. Killing due to kufr is not something which the legislations have agreed upon at any one time of the Shariah, such as killing the one who sits out of combat, for this is something that the legislations and intellect do not differ over. The blood of a disbeliever during the early history of Islaam was sanctified and inviolable just like the original sanctity of a person. Allaah prevented the Muslims from killing such a disbeliever."-Ibn Taymiyah, "As Saarim Al Maslool 'Alaa Shaatim ir Rasool", Page 104.

"Killing a women merely on account of kufr is not permissible and we do not know that it was allowed to kill any disbelieving women at any time whatsoever. Rather, the Qur'an and the sequence of its revelation prove that it is not allowed at all, because the first verses revealed about fighting: "Permission to fight has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allaah is competent to give them victory. They are those who have been evicted from their homes without right". (Qur'an 22:39 and 49). So it was allowed for the believers to fight in defending themselves and to retaliate against those who evicted them from their homes and prevented them from tawheed of Allaah and His worship, and women are not included from those who do this. Then it was prescribed for them to fight absolutely and this is explained in His saying: "Fight in the way of Allaah against those who fight you". (Qur'an 2:190). So those people who are not people of combat are not permitted to be fought against."-Ibn Taymiyah "As Saarim Al Maslool", Page 101.

I'm begining to doubt your "teaching," of Islam.


Mug Shot.....caught, tried, and convicted,......no free pass because He was on Jihad, not72 virgins for Him to ravish in the after life......straight to prison for the rest of His life.

I never said this didn't happen. Also, again this whole suicide = 72 virgins in paradise crap is a myth. I would also question you're understanding of jihad.


Or how about the genocide being committed in Darfur by Muslims

Way to distort and misportray said event. Muslims (non-Arab) are also being killed.


Or the Armenian Genocide, by the Ottoman Empire? again a Muslim committed Genocide against the unbelievers.

Again, you're misportraying historical events. Come on, it's clear that you're "interpretations," of historical events is crazed and biased.


Yes, a Muslim could not commit genocide" You are just expounding said what every Muslim thinks. It is alway the kafir who is the problem.

You're misconstruing my arguments and I am willing to bet that this is being willfully done as well. This also isn't my argument at all, my examples again are merely putting things into perspective and demonstrating how your argument is tu quoque.


Destroy all who are not Islam, and reject the faith.

Where? Prove it.


That is why I chose them, are you also aware of the term, Kitman or Taqqiya, some rather interesting tenets of Islam.

Wow, you really are playing from the American right-wing nutjob playbook here now aren't you. Not suprising though really but you're only demonstrating your ignorance. I would also question your understanding of the terms.


Tariq Ramadan;

Do you even know whom are the 'Salafis' are and what they believe? It's strange that you would bring this as evidence that the Dar al-Islam/Dar al-Harb dichotomy exists in any real sense. It's also not surprising that you're "evidence," is niether from al-Qur'an or the Sunnah because it's not mentioned there anywhere. It's use is only by later Islamic scholars. This is an artificial division. Infact the term 'dar al-harb' really has only been applied to parties whom were actually/literally at war with Muslims by the Islamic scholars. What about dar al-sulh? Dar al-hudna? Dar al-dawa? Dar al-amn? Again, I question your understanding of the terms.


No not really, after all I am only a Kaffir, and do not have the Blessing of Allah to chastise and enlighten the unbeliever, as you do.

Oh, please, give me a break, can you even take yourself seriously?

kmguru
07-31-10, 09:49 AM
Well he was an american agent to fight the russians

America gave him tools and financial motivation to fight USSR

he gave his army religious motivations to fight with him


but what motivations made him turn to america and the west ??

If he is the islam sword , would in it be more at the point that he fights israel or continue fighting russia , as in muslims eyes they occupy thier lands and kill their children in palestine and cheshnia ,

conclusion he is not fighting to protect the muslims , does he just want to kill people so he goes to heaven ???

Or is the terrorists network large enough now that they want to kill every other religion on the planet ??

The truth no one wants to hear at the opposing end of the opinions is what is portrayed in the movie "Charlie Wilson's war". After the soviets left, we left too with Afghanistan is shambles. There was no plan to rebuild the country even if we promised by the very fact we were there.

Everything went downhill from there. We still can not seem to do nation building - even after spending zillions of dollars.

Giambattista
07-31-10, 10:06 AM
Bin Laden didn't have to turn to hit America, he was sitting right there at his hi-tech computer console running all those satellites which coordinate his operations from his base deep underground. He hit a few keys, and the towers came down.

Buffalo Roam
07-31-10, 11:20 AM
No, my examples are merely putting things into perspective. Really, I'm pointing out that you're argument is tu quoque.

What perspective? Muslim vs: Kaffar.



Oh, please, give me a break, can you even take yourself seriously?

I have given you a break, now how about you not taking your self so seriously, Bin Lid, is exactly what He is a Muslim, a Whabist, who you seemly wish to justify, by only looking at the sins of the Kaffar.

Yes, "Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" it is incapable of it's own Religious/political agenda, it is so pure that it is incapable of the commission of Genocide, because it is the one and only true religion.

I am only quoting those of Islam who have reveled what Islam is, and it intent, and method determined to be acceptable.

I have quote from , Mujtahids, Ayatollah, Mullah, Imam and other respected learned men of Islam, and what they reveal in their thoughts and writings, though i strongly suspect that these writings and thought were never intended to be revealed outside the circles of debate of Islam, because those thoughts, decision, and rulings, reveal the dark and seamy side of Islam.

And before you go there, yes in Christianity there was a dark side for centuries, I am a Protestant, a Fundamentalist Protestant, and the fundamental command of The true Profit of God, Jesus is to offer salvation, to be freely accepted or rejected by the person, and from that point on, no sanction is acceptable against that person for rejecting the Faith, be it as in Islam every thing from invasion/Death/Dhimmiture........there in no adverse stricture that we are allowed to impose.

It is not the same in Islam, and that is very apparent in it's practice of Dhimmitude, Jizhya, which is still practiced across the Muslim World.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-31-10, 08:25 PM
I find it funny that you speak with such confidence about Islam and are so convinced of your own assertions, yet you didn't even address the evidence I have provided. How odd.


What perspective? Muslim vs: Kaffar.

No, my point is obvious and I have already stated the reason for my examples none of which subscribes to this 'Muslim-Kaffir' dichotomy. How about you address what I'm actually saying and not these fictional arguments you keep spitting out, hmm? Or can you not? Can you not address the evidences and arguments I'm giving? To inconvienant? I bet.

I could very easily just say that you are blaming everything on Muslims. You even tried to blame the shooting of a Jewish School in LA on Muslims when it was a neo-Nazi American whom actually did it. Funny, how you never tried to defend your intial "theory," of the event. Is he still Muslim to you?


I have given you a break

Really? Oh, thank you. :rolleyes:


Bin Lid, is exactly what He is a Muslim, a Whabist, who you seemly wish to justify, by only looking at the sins of the Kaffar.

I have already stated numerous times that it's this Wahhabi/Salafi (Wahhabism arose in the 18th century and Salafism too is a relatively recent ideaology) ideaology which is the problem. I as a Shi'a (as would be any and every Shi'a) am against the Wahhabis/Salafis and their ideology. You are also totally misconstruing all of my arguments. I also don't support bin Laden in the least nor am I trying to defend him per se. I do however believe that he could very well be just a CIA/US puppet.


Yes, "Dar'al Islam "does nothing wrong" it is incapable of it's own Religious/political agenda, it is so pure that it is incapable of the commission of Genocide, because it is the one and only true religion.

I never said this nor could anything I have said be suggestive of this either. Again, stop fucking pulling shit out of your ass and actually address the shit that I am presenting. Or is that possible for you? Is it possible for you to discuss Islam and Muslims and topics related to both without resorting to such intellectual dishonesty and bigotry? Or am I to assume this is how it's going to be? I present counter-arguments and then you try to misportray it as "Muslims are at war with the world and single living thing in it to the kaffir to the lonely field mouse."


I am only quoting those of Islam who have reveled what Islam is, and it intent, and method determined to be acceptable.

I am quoting al-Qur'an, the hadiths and works written by Islamic scholars. You're not quoting shit. Funny, how I'm a Muslim whom is quoting Islamic scripture and works written by Islamic scholars, but of course this isn't the "real," Islam. I must be lying, right? Because that's what we Arabs, oh, I'm sorry, I mean Muslims, do right? :rolleyes:


I have quote from , Mujtahids, Ayatollah, Mullah, Imam and other respected learned men of Islam

Where? I don't see shit.


I am a Protestant, a Fundamentalist Protestant, and the fundamental command of The true Profit of God,

Oh, how could I have not have guessed.

If only I could follow the true "profit," of God. :rolleyes:

It's clear to me that you know jack shit about Islam or Muslims.

Buffalo Roam
07-31-10, 08:54 PM
Evidence? I have also presented evidence.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-31-10, 09:06 PM
Evidence? I have also presented evidence.

Where? The school shooting link and the information copied from said link is the only thing that I have seen. I have not seen any quotes from anyone nor have I seen verses from al-Qur'an nor has any hadith been posted either.

kororoti
07-31-10, 09:28 PM
"

I think his primary motivation has less to do with U.S. policy, and more to do with his attempt to drive a wedge between Saudi Arabia and America. He knows it would be much more difficult for the House of Saud to survive without American oil money, and his goal is basically revenge. He also would prefer to set up a goverment in his home country based on strict Wahhabism, so that his nation can live under a 12th century form of government. The ludicrous thing about this is that his family gained all of their money due to their connection and support of the House of Saud, so the hipocracy is certainly running strong.



It's like the guy's just too dumb to realize that oil is inherently valuable. If the USA dropped off the map tomorrow, Europe, China, ...and basically every major player except Russia (because they have their own oil), would line up eagerly to take our place.



Slavery didn't end in the United States till near the end of the 1800s. The civil rights movement didn't happen until the 1960s. The beating of Rodney King happened in 1992. You're longest-serving Senator was a former member of the KKK, a vigilante group which also still exists in the US and has since the late 19th century. A Baptist church was bombed which killed 4 black children and injured 22 other people in 1963. A Jewish School in Los Angeles was shot up in 1999. Am I really to believe that America is a colorblind paradise?

Isolated incidents don't mean anything, especially isolated illegal acts. You could just as easily argue that the USA is predominantly made up of pedophiles by citing a string of examples of cases wherein a child was molested.

None of these things that occurred were legal. If people weren't prosecuted, it is only because the evidence wasn't clear enough to overcome the presumption of innocence that all citizens are granted.


[I]
There have been incidents of slavery amongst illegal immigrants working in agriculture. The Immokalee region in southern Florida, which grows most of the tomatoes eaten in the United States during the cold months, has had many cases of slavery. Since 1997, several prosecutions have resulted in over 1,000 slaves being freed.[137]

In 2002, the U.S. Department of State repeated an earlier CIA estimate[141] that each year, about 50,000 women and children are brought against their will to the United States for sexual exploitation.[142] {wiki}

50,000 slaves per year? The USA population is 250 million. If 100,000 of those people participated in the slave trade (2 each to smuggle 50,000 sex slaves into the country) that would mean 0.04% of Americans participate in slavery. Hardly a majority.

Buffalo Roam
07-31-10, 09:49 PM
Ja'far at-Tahir, guess what I do know jack shit about Islam, from it's foundlings to it's acts jihad and terror today.

It is in the news, it is in the history books, it is in the writings of the Mujtahids, Ayatollah, Mullah, Imam and other respected learned men of Islam.


it's also haram to kill non-combatants in Islamic Jurisprudence.

Then explain all of the suicide bombing in Iraq? Afghanistan? around the world, The women and children murdered in the markets, on pilgrimage, aid workers only trying to feed the starving, heal the sick, and comfort the dying.

August 29 2003: One or two car bombs, detonated by suicide bombers, explode outside the Imam Ali Shrine in Najaf. Between 85 and 125 people were killed, including the leader of the nation's Shia community Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Baqr al-Hakim.

October 27 2003: Four or five suicide car bombings rock Baghdad, killing 30-40 people including two US soldiers. The deadliest attack was on the HQ of the International Committee of the Red Cross, where a suicide bomber driving an ambulance killed 12 and wounded 20.

February 10 2004: At least 55 people are killed in car bombing outside a police station in Iskandariyah, south of Baghdad.

March 2 2004: In the deadliest coordinated attacks since the fall of Saddam Hussein, a series of explosions killed 181 Shiites celebrating the Ashoura festival in Baghdad and Karbala. 49 Iranian pilgrims were among the victims of the bombings, at least four of which were suicide attacks.

June 17 2004: A suicide car bomber driving a white 4x4 detonated his vehicle amongst a crowd of 300 jobless young men queuing at the gates of an Iraqi army base in central Baghdad. 35 people were killed and 138 injured..........................

........December 3 2004: A van with four suicide bombers on board drove into a Shi'ite mosque in Baghdad, killing 14 civilians who had gathered for morning prayers.

December 19 2004: A suicide bomber in Najaf killed at least 51 people when he targeted a funeral procession near the Imam Ali shrine. A suicide car bomb near a bus stop in Kerbala killed at least 14 people. It occurred near the twin shrines of Hussein and Abbas, and also near the home of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.


Ja'far at-Tahir, you say killing innocent non combatants is haram, suicide is Haram, then explain th eabove actions bu Muslim Believers of Islam.

January 26 2010: A suicide car bomber kills 21 and injures 85 when he strikes at an Iraqi crime lab in the capital

(Where are the Combatants in this attack? only combatant, the one who committed suicide, a Muslim Terror bomber)

February 1 2010: Baghdad bombing.
A female suicide bomber detonated among a group of pilgrims making their journey to Karbala to mark Arbaeen as they walked through Baghdad, killing 54 and injuring 117

(Where are the Combatants in this attack? only combatant, the one who committed suicide, a Muslim Terror bomber)

February 3 2010: A suicide car bomber detonates in a crowd of pilgrims making their way to the Imam Hussein shrine in the city of Karbala, killing 10 and injuring 50

February 5 2010: Two suicide car bombers leave 40 dead and 140 injured when they detonated on either side of a bridge across which pilgrims were making their way in and out of Karbala.

February 21 2010: A suicide bomber trying to enter a mosque detonated an explosives-laden vest after being shot at by guards, killing one person and wounding six near Tikri

March 4 2010: Two suicide bombers detonated in different areas of the capital killing 17 and injuring 35. It is known that polling stations were the target in both of these suicide attacks.

I thought suicide was Haram?

You speak of Islam as one thing but the new videos present Islam as a whole other thing.

May 10: Main article 10 May 2010 Iraq attacks
Two suicide car bombers drove into a fabrics factory as workers were ending there shift in the town of Hilla,[24] as bystanders and emergency services rushed in to help the wounded, another suicide bomber detonated explosives causing a third explosion.[25] The attacks left 45 dead and 140 wounded.[24] Two suicide bombers, one wearing a vest laden with explosives and the other driving a car, killed at least 13 people and wounded 40 in a crowded Iraqi marketplace southeast of Baghdad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003

Yes story after story from Wiki, with citation, about Isalm, about the death and destruction brought about in attacking not only non combatants, but Muslim non combatants.

Or go here and follow the trail of death and destruction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

Yet in story after story when U.S. Troops are accused of murder, rape, what ever, they are investigated, and if evidence is found, charges are brought,, and if that evidence holds up in court, they are convicted, and they are sentenced.

Can you show me the same of Islam?

Bert
07-31-10, 10:01 PM
^ has it occured to you that the people that kill the innocent people (who r muslims anyway) in these countries do not necessary follow Islam properly?

Bert
07-31-10, 10:06 PM
Well, Muslims do tend to be xenophobic bigots, just read the history of their interactions with minorities. In Palestine, they taught their children to spit and throw stones at Jews, and the Jews were not allowed to strike back.

Can you really blame them? I'd spit on and throw stones at people who have kicked me off my land! lol

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-31-10, 10:38 PM
Ja'far at-Tahir, guess what I do know jack shit about Islam, from it's foundlings to it's acts jihad and terror today.

Oh, trust me, it's "clear," that only thing you know of Islam and Muslims is what the Western/American media feeds you.


It is in the news, it is in the history books, it is in the writings of the Mujtahids, Ayatollah, Mullah, Imam and other respected learned men of Islam.

Still waiting for those quotes from said men. Funny how you say it's so prevelant and accepted and condoned in Islamic scripture and by Islamic scholars when you haven't posted one verse from al-Qur'an, one hadiths or one quote from any Islamic scholar and I have done all of the above to back up my assertions and counter-arguments.


August 29 2003: One or two car bombs, detonated by suicide bombers, explode outside the Imam Ali Shrine in Najaf. Between 85 and 125 people were killed, including the leader of the nation's Shia community Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Baqr al-Hakim.

An attack against Shi'is. I wonder how I would feel about this. :rolleyes:


March 2 2004: In the deadliest coordinated attacks since the fall of Saddam Hussein, a series of explosions killed 181 Shiites celebrating the Ashoura festival in Baghdad and Karbala. 49 Iranian pilgrims were among the victims of the bombings, at least four of which were suicide attacks.

Another attack on the Shi'a community and upon Shi'a pilgrims.


........December 3 2004: A van with four suicide bombers on board drove into a Shi'ite mosque in Baghdad, killing 14 civilians who had gathered for morning prayers.

Again another attack on the Iraqi Shi'a community.


December 19 2004: A suicide bomber in Najaf killed at least 51 people when he targeted a funeral procession near the Imam Ali shrine. A suicide car bomb near a bus stop in Kerbala killed at least 14 people. It occurred near the twin shrines of Hussein and Abbas, and also near the home of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

Both the city of Najaf and Karbala are extremely important/holy sites to every Shi'a around the globe, not to mention Imam Sistani is my marja and is also the leading and most senior Shi'i cleric in Iraq of whom is not only followed in Iraq but also by millions of Shi'a around the globe.


February 1 2010: Baghdad bombing.
A female suicide bomber detonated among a group of pilgrims making their journey to Karbala to mark Arbaeen as they walked through Baghdad, killing 54 and injuring 117

An attack on Shi'a pilgrims/community.


February 3 2010: A suicide car bomber detonates in a crowd of pilgrims making their way to the Imam Hussein shrine in the city of Karbala, killing 10 and injuring 50

An attack on the Shi'a community.


February 5 2010: Two suicide car bombers leave 40 dead and 140 injured when they detonated on either side of a bridge across which pilgrims were making their way in and out of Karbala.

An attack on the Shi'a community.


I thought suicide was Haram?

It is, clearly, as stated explicitly in al-Qur'an and I have posted numerous religious arguments, justifications and evidences for this claim. Posting these incidents doesn't in anyway refute this nor can it in any real way be taken as a valid counter-argument. I mean I have posted hadith and quotes by Islamic scholars which says suicide is a sin, is haram and it's haram to kill non-combatants, namely the elderly, women, children, sick, etc. Infact a lot of your "evidences," are of attacks on the Shi'a community. I am Shi'a and it's very easy to see why every Shi'a around the globe would be against these attacks. It's ridiculous. I mean attacks, killings and persecution of the Shi'a community within the region isn't something new and has happened ever since the begining. The fact remains there is no religious argument for these suicide bombings, none. There is however numerous other explainations, I am sure, as to why this recent phenomena has taken place however again, there is no religious argument for this action, at all. If you disagree then we can very well debate this.

Ja'far at-Tahir
07-31-10, 10:43 PM
^ has it occured to you that the people that kill the innocent people (who r muslims anyway) in these countries do not necessary follow Islam properly?

One would assume so however to some people here this thought is simply impossible.

Skeptical
07-31-10, 11:25 PM
One of the problems with religion - and I mean all religions - is that its members 'modify' the teachings thereof to suit their own personal prejudices and desires. Christians set up the Inquisition and killed Jews, basically because they could steal from the Jews they were killing. Yet they did that "in the name of Christ'.

Of course Muslims do the same sort of thing. Hence they attack and kill those they have a prejudice against, and call it "in the name of Allah."

I have met many Muslims. The vast majority, like the vast majority of Christians, are lovely people. A survey carried out some years back showed that about 10% of all social groups, all religions, all professions etc, basically have no conscience. This 10% will do absolutely anything to benefit themselves, no matter how much it hurts other, if they think they can get away with it. This also means that 90% of all peoples are good.

That 10% is part of all Muslim groups, and all Christian groups. They are the ones who recruit, train, and despatch suicide bombers. Ironically, the bombers themselves are usually naive young men who actually have little idea of what is going on, and simply follow instructions. The evil ones are the recruiters.

Since I am a non believer in any religion, I can view it more dispassionately than the Muslims and Christians here. Take it from me. All peoples are alike. Mostly good but with a smattering of totally evil a$$holes.

keith1
08-01-10, 12:51 AM
Was is not said, as an afterthought of the U.S. military pullout in Vietnam, that "we would not become enmeshed in a situation like that again"? But was it not taken by others as "we will not leave a situation like that again"?

Was not the first intrusion of U.S. forces into the Middle East, as to push back Saddam's army out of Kuwait, not done expeditiously, as fear of "another Vietnam" loomed in the mindset of the U.S., at the time? Was not Bin Laden's hashish-empowered fighter's, fresh from the victorious repulsion of (then Soviet) occupation of Afghanistan, ready to join in with the western allies, against Saddam?

Did their shunning of his request (because they did not need him, or the Saud/Islamic elite was fearful of a new growing "Islamic warrior/prophet" movement, or other reasons) start the "evil West/infidel on our soil" propaganda campaign for the minds of some of the Islamic populace?

Does not an opiated mind (given the subjects are already vulnerable to suggestion, seemly threatened, under other personal crisis) become ripe for such suicide bombing acts? Against all factions not of their ilk, sect, local countryman?

Does not the continued (seemly stubborn, for the discussed reasons stated above) presence of foreign military factions exacerbate this condition?

Buffalo Roam
08-01-10, 12:18 PM
^ has it occured to you that the people that kill the innocent people (who r muslims anyway) in these countries do not necessary follow Islam properly?

Try and tell that to them, and they will disagree with you, and at time in a very disagreeable manner.

Now what is proper Islam, we have Imam's, Sheikh's, who have given their blessings to the use of suicide bombings.

All though they use other terms to make it acceptable;

feda’i...istishhadi....shahada.....shahid......shu hada......

Some reading for you.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/proteus/docs/Acosta-the-palestinian-shahid.pdf

Today, posters glorifying the latest shahid litter the walls of Palestinian cities, villages and “refugee camps” in the disputed territories23 of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. Everyone from corner shop owners and cab drivers to the 20-something year olds drinking coffee at the local café extol past Palestinian terror leaders such as Chairman Yasser Arafat, Dr. Fathi Shaqaqi, Sheik Ahmad Yassin and Dr. Abdul Aziz al-Rantissi, along with the heinous terrorist acts they spent their days sponsoring. In Bethlehem, children argue in the street over whose turn it is to play the shahid in their casual game of a mock suicide-bomb attack. These sentiments expressed on the Arab streets of the disputed territories represent a popular culture of martyrdom, which has gained and continues to strengthen a stranglehold on Palestinian society.

martyrdom

First used in explaining Palestinian society’s support for suicide-homicide bombers sometime after the initiation of the second intifada, a number of researchers, scholars and political analysts have since elaborated on the concept “culture of martyrdom” and its variations. See David Brooks, “The Culture of Martyrdom: How Suicide Bombing Became not just a Means but an End,” The Atlantic Monthly 289, no. 6 (June 2002): 18-20; Mohammed M. Hafez, Manufacturing Human Bombs: The Making of Palestinian Suicide Bombers (Washington D.C.: United States Institute for Peace Press, 2006); Anne Marie Oliver and Paul Steinberg, The Road to Martyrs’ Square: A Journey into the World of the Suicide Bomber (New York: Oxford University Press, 2005); Barbara Victor, Army of Roses: Inside the World of Palestinian Women Suicide Bombers (Emmaus, Penn.: Rodale, 2003); Nat Hentoff, “The Poisonous Cult of Martyrdom; Pal

Tatwa (Islamic decree) issued by Sheikh Yousef al-Qaradawi, a leading Sunni cleric, supporting the use of suicide-homicide attacks on civilians, worked not only to buttress Palestinian employment of suicide-homicide bombers against Israeli civilians,

Al-Qaradawi is the Head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, as well as the President of the International Association of Muslim Scholars.

Referring to the importance of al-Qaradawi’s role in legitimizing suicide terrorism, Hamas’s current leader Khaled Mash’al states: “[Qaradawi’s] unequivocal fatwa, the sheikh, may Allah reward him, considered martyrdom operations to be the most noble level of jihad. That was unparalleled support for the people of Palestine, because, brothers and sisters, you cannot imagine how difficult it is psychologically for a young Palestinian man or woman to sacrifice themselves or what is most dear to them, only to encounter a conflict in their minds and hearts as to whether they are on the path of righteousness, or whether they are committing a religious violation.”

Skeptical
08-01-10, 02:27 PM
All of which just goes to show that the recruiters are evil a$$holes, and the suicide bombers are naive young men, easily led.

The history of Christianity is also full of incidences where religious leaders led young people into acts that are utterly non Christian. The crusades themselves were led by popes, and were completely against everything that Christ taught.

So Mulsims do the same thing as Christians....

Buffalo Roam
08-01-10, 11:11 PM
All of which just goes to show that the recruiters are evil a$$holes, and the suicide bombers are naive young men, easily led.

The history of Christianity is also full of incidences where religious leaders led young people into acts that are utterly non Christian. The crusades themselves were led by popes, and were completely against everything that Christ taught.

So Mulsims do the same thing as Christians....

Sorry, but the Crusades were 700 years ago, and the only suicide killers, were again Muslim, Da'wa al-Jadīda الدعوة الجديدة, but at least they did target only the Leadership, Military and Political.

And no the Crusades of the middle east were in response to a call from the Christian Byzantine Empire, a reaction to Islam, invading their lands, the Holy Lands, occupying them and capturing Jerusalem in 1076, the most holy of holy places for Christians.

A clear response to the expansion of Islam.

The other so called Crusades, unfortunately called such by the Catholic Church, were as a response to the Orthodox and Protestant movements, which rose in challenge to the Roman Catholicism, and the corruption of the Fundamental Teachings of Christ.

Again, there is a major doctrinal difference between Christianity and Islam.

The Protestants forced the Roman Church to abandon the use of force in conversion, and return to the fundamental teachings of Jesus, that Salvation is offered freely, to be accepted freely, or rejected freely, with no sanction, in social status, or forfeiture of life, as a Protestant, I do not want a Bad Christian, (forced) over a Good Muslim (dead), now as my research into Islam has revealed, Yes, until you are offered conversion to Islam, yes you are under no compunction to become a Muslim, but once that offer is rejected, and you have refused the path to Allah, then you come under sanctions for refusing to convert, starting with death, or if a People of the Book, Dhimmitude, and the payment of Jizya, becoming second class citizens in your own lands.

Under Sharia' non-Muslims are not regarded as citizens by any Islamic state, even if they originally populated the land. To deny this, to conceal the truth.

Justice and equality require that any Christian Pakistani, Melanesian, Turk, or Arab be treated the same under law as any other citizen of his own country.

They have the right to enjoy the same privileges of citizenship regardless of belief.

To make the claim that Islam is the only true religion and to accuse other religions of infidelity, and then place legal sanctions against there followers. is a legal, social, and religious offense.

Yes,Christians believe that their religion is the true religion of God and Islam is not.

But does that mean. say for example, in Britain, which is headed by a Queen, the head of the Anglican Church, Muslim subjects should be treated as a second class?

All so in the west Muslims enjoy all freedoms allotted to all citizens of these countries, but in the lands of Islam, Muslim countries, they do not allow native Christians, Buddhist, Hindu, other religions, the same freedom?

In the West Muslims build mosques, schools, and have the right to enter the political arena, also they have access to the media without any restriction.

They can publicly advertise their activities, are allowed to distribute their Islamic tracts freely, yet in any Islamic country, natives who are not Muslim are not allowed to do so under sanction of law.

Why are citizens of the West allowed to embrace any religion they wish without persecution while a person who chooses to convert to another religion in any Islamic country, is considered an apostate and faces death by Sharia" Law, and must be killed if he persists in his apostasy?

Yes, this the 21st Century, it is not the Crusades, and Christians are not doing the same thing as Muslims.

Bert
08-02-10, 05:04 AM
im not too worried buffalo roam. personally id prefer islam over christianity if I did believe in god (which i semi-do, semi-dont, semi-cant be stuffed)

you should definitely see the pictures of young jewish kids in israel---not playing and pretending---but actually using guns and learning how to use them.

http://muslimmatters.org/2009/02/07/israeli-jewish-settlers-occupiers-in-palestine-train-children-in-use-of-firearms-guns/

http://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com/2008/11/jewish-kids-raised-to-kill.html

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=13453

yes palestine kids play and mock and pretend...israeli kids do...
afterall, they have to get ready to become the murderers their elders were. Just disgusting.

atheist
08-02-10, 05:58 AM
islam is an expansive religion so they will not stop till everyone is converted or killed which is like their form of the old testament, today most arent this bad in their beliefs.

im suprised nobody here brought up the inside job government stuff. the main stream media was caught lying on several occasions and there is too many coincidences and inconsistencies with the official report. i would suggest you youtube "jesse ventura" cause he was the governor of minnesota and watch him talk on larry king or any vid with him in it. shadow gov, federal reserve, drug smuggling, false flag terrorism, alot of scary stuff when you look into this.

Buffalo Roam
08-02-10, 01:53 PM
yes palestine kids play and mock and pretend...israeli kids do...afterall, they have to get ready to become the murderers their elders were. Just disgusting.

Bert, maybe you need to broaden your horizon's and research....

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/301772/military_training_at_a_summer_camp/

http://josiahe.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/arab_toddler_guns.jpg

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUtj66_ICOOb3WbQcIyOq2Nvgm6tphc NajbjnagQ7TXtLVDKo&t=1&usg=__GpZnyzdbbvfkPO-Ut-BizQBYd70=

http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/apjinternational/apj-s/2008/1tri08/1tri08_images/sullivan4.jpg

Those aren't toy guns that are in the hands of these Palestinian Children.

Are you ready to make this statement of your applicable to the Palestinian's as well?

Or are you just another anti Semite, Jew hating bigot.


yes palestine kids play and mock and pretend...israeli kids do...afterall, they have to get ready to become the murderers their elders were. Just disgusting.

Skeptical
08-02-10, 03:35 PM
You do not need to be anti-semitic to be concerned about what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians.

Certainly Palestinians get hold of any guns they can. They even photograph their children holding those guns. So what?

I can tell you with total emphasis, that if any other people treated me and my country the way Israelis treated Palestinians and Palestine, I would get my hands on the biggest, most potent weapon I could find, and I would be stalking the city looking for enemies to kill!

The situation in Palestine is not nice. The Palestinians are not nice in the way they respond to it. But their response is totally understandable. America, Britain, and Israel stole the Palestinians country off them, and gave nothing back. Today they claim virtue because they allow the survivors to live in the worst zones, while depriving them of the necessities of life.

Israelis still kill Palestinians at the rate of more than a dozen for every Israeli who dies. Hamas is not nice, either. They are not smart, since they are relying on a one sided war to achieve their goal of a sovereign, independent Palestine. They should be lobbying every international forum they can.

Sadly, as long as the USA supports Israel, the Palestinians have little chance of obtaining what they desperately need, and most definitely deserve - their own homeland.

And, Buffalo, if you think that Palestinians doing what they can to fight back against an evil aggressor is wrong, then you have a warped view of reality.

Bert
08-02-10, 04:40 PM
You do not need to be anti-semitic to be concerned about what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians.

Certainly Palestinians get hold of any guns they can. They even photograph their children holding those guns. So what?

I can tell you with total emphasis, that if any other people treated me and my country the way Israelis treated Palestinians and Palestine, I would get my hands on the biggest, most potent weapon I could find, and I would be stalking the city looking for enemies to kill!

The situation in Palestine is not nice. The Palestinians are not nice in the way they respond to it. But their response is totally understandable. America, Britain, and Israel stole the Palestinians country off them, and gave nothing back. Today they claim virtue because they allow the survivors to live in the worst zones, while depriving them of the necessities of life.

Israelis still kill Palestinians at the rate of more than a dozen for every Israeli who dies. Hamas is not nice, either. They are not smart, since they are relying on a one sided war to achieve their goal of a sovereign, independent Palestine. They should be lobbying every international forum they can.

Sadly, as long as the USA supports Israel, the Palestinians have little chance of obtaining what they desperately need, and most definitely deserve - their own homeland.

And, Buffalo, if you think that Palestinians doing what they can to fight back against an evil aggressor is wrong, then you have a warped view of reality.

couldn't have said it better myself!

Bert
08-02-10, 04:42 PM
Bert, maybe you need to broaden your horizon's and research....

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/301772/military_training_at_a_summer_camp/

http://josiahe.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/arab_toddler_guns.jpg

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUtj66_ICOOb3WbQcIyOq2Nvgm6tphc NajbjnagQ7TXtLVDKo&t=1&usg=__GpZnyzdbbvfkPO-Ut-BizQBYd70=

http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/apjinternational/apj-s/2008/1tri08/1tri08_images/sullivan4.jpg

Those aren't toy guns that are in the hands of these Palestinian Children.

Are you ready to make this statement of your applicable to the Palestinian's as well?

Or are you just another anti Semite, Jew hating bigot.

did you even see my photos btw? you were saying that these muslim and christian palestinian kids carried guns and i showed you the israeli kids carrying guns and learning how to use them.

Buffalo Roam
08-02-10, 08:48 PM
did you even see my photos btw? you were saying that these muslim and christian palestinian kids carried guns and i showed you the israeli kids carrying guns and learning how to use them.

No Bert, the pictures are of Palestinian Children carrying weapons, real weapons, and the video is of them learning to use them.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/301772/military_training_at_a_summer_camp/

Now as for your pictures.....
http://muslimmatters.org/2009/02/07/...firearms-guns/

http://muslimmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/jewish-settler-kids-guns.jpg

If you would care to notice, those weapons are secured to the table by a cable.

http://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot...d-to-kill.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qTnEIgBqgqE/RskgBkYQYMI/AAAAAAAAAGI/7UN4sYh8_KE/s400/gush004.jpg

Ah yes, really dangerous toy cap guns and a pink noise makers.

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=13453

http://www.informationliberation.com/files/192642682_2fea4cce66_o.jpg

So they are sending their best wishes, seem that I have seen Palestinian Children doing the exact same thing.

I see no military training going on, not like the video of summer camp for future suicide bombers.

pjdude1219
08-02-10, 09:01 PM
The United States(along with the UK and France) created the envoirment for this to happen. we meddled in the affairs of, used, and abused these people. We are merely reaping what we have sowed.

pjdude1219
08-02-10, 09:03 PM
You do not need to be anti-semitic to be concerned about what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians.

Certainly Palestinians get hold of any guns they can. They even photograph their children holding those guns. So what?

I can tell you with total emphasis, that if any other people treated me and my country the way Israelis treated Palestinians and Palestine, I would get my hands on the biggest, most potent weapon I could find, and I would be stalking the city looking for enemies to kill!

The situation in Palestine is not nice. The Palestinians are not nice in the way they respond to it. But their response is totally understandable. America, Britain, and Israel stole the Palestinians country off them, and gave nothing back. Today they claim virtue because they allow the survivors to live in the worst zones, while depriving them of the necessities of life.

Israelis still kill Palestinians at the rate of more than a dozen for every Israeli who dies. Hamas is not nice, either. They are not smart, since they are relying on a one sided war to achieve their goal of a sovereign, independent Palestine. They should be lobbying every international forum they can.

Sadly, as long as the USA supports Israel, the Palestinians have little chance of obtaining what they desperately need, and most definitely deserve - their own homeland.

And, Buffalo, if you think that Palestinians doing what they can to fight back against an evil aggressor is wrong, then you have a warped view of reality.

exactly take any animal abused the fuck out of it and than corner it and see what happens. exactly what the palestinians are doing lashing out.

Buffalo Roam
08-02-10, 10:44 PM
And, Buffalo, if you think that Palestinians doing what they can to fight back against an evil aggressor is wrong, then you have a warped view of reality.

Yes, I love the way you couch your anti Semitic, rhetoric.


"fight back against an evil aggressor"

Buffalo Roam
08-02-10, 10:50 PM
The United States(along with the UK and France) created the envoirment for this to happen. we meddled in the affairs of, used, and abused these people. We are merely reaping what we have sowed.

No, pj, If it wasn't for the U.S. the Faux Palestinians and Arabs would have had the asses handed to them in several of the wars, we are the ones who have pulled the Israelis off of the Palestinian and Arabs more than once, same for the French.

It is the Arabs/Faux Palestinians who are reaping what they have sown, remember it was they who rejected U.N. 181 after they were given 95% of the lands of the Palestinian Mandate, and the Camp David Accords after they were given 95% of of the conditions they insisted on.

pjdude1219
08-02-10, 11:32 PM
No, pj, If it wasn't for the U.S. the Faux Palestinians still going off on the bigoted dulesion I see.
and Arabs would have had the asses handed to them in several of the wars, we are the ones who have pulled the Israelis off of the Palestinian and Arabs more than once, same for the French. we haven't pulled them off of them. we have given them the green light. he'll we made sure the Israelis had the weapons in their wars.


It is the Arabs/Faux Palestinians who are reaping what they have sown, They didn't cause this Israel and neoconservative like your self did. they are the victims.
remember it was they who rejected U.N. 181 which it was their right to do so. the UN had no right to give away their land to other people with out their concent.buty when has the law ever mattered to you.
after they were given 95% of the lands of the Palestinian Mandate, 95% may you please tell me where yo get your drugs because damn you get the good shit. the palestinians got 0% of palestine.
and the Camp David Accords after they were given 95% of of the conditions they insisted on.

another buffalo post and another lie. it was the Israelis who got that not the palestinians.




also I was talking about colonialism in general

Skeptical
08-03-10, 12:02 AM
Buffalo accused me of being anti-semitic.

This reminds me of something that was current in the 1950's - an Israeli joke. Apparently it was common for the Israelis to say : "Where are the Jews?" Meaning that they were not Jews. They were Israeli.

In the same way, I am not anti-semitic. I have known a number of Jews and I have no problem with them. However, I am somewhat anti-Israeli. Do you understand the difference?

I am only anti-Israeli because of the way they treat the Palestinians. It is a bit like being anti-Nazi because of the way they treated the Jews. In fact, I see an amazing irony. The Nazis treated the Jews in a way that horrified the civilised world. And now the Israelis are trying to out-Nazi the Nazis with the way they treat Palestinians. Truly appalling.

I also make no apology for using the word "evil". My definition of evil is that it is a description of the behaviour that occurs when someone acts to massively harm others, just to obtain a benefit, often small, for themselves.

By this definition, the actions of the Israelis against the Palestinians is indeed evil.

Bert
08-03-10, 06:29 AM
No Bert, the pictures are of Palestinian Children carrying weapons, real weapons, and the video is of them learning to use them.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/301772/military_training_at_a_summer_camp/

Now as for your pictures.....
http://muslimmatters.org/2009/02/07/...firearms-guns/

http://muslimmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/jewish-settler-kids-guns.jpg

If you would care to notice, those weapons are secured to the table by a cable.

http://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot...d-to-kill.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qTnEIgBqgqE/RskgBkYQYMI/AAAAAAAAAGI/7UN4sYh8_KE/s400/gush004.jpg

Ah yes, really dangerous toy cap guns and a pink noise makers.

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=13453

http://www.informationliberation.com/files/192642682_2fea4cce66_o.jpg

So they are sending their best wishes, seem that I have seen Palestinian Children doing the exact same thing.

I see no military training going on, not like the video of summer camp for future suicide bombers.

funny. there's another one you forgot to show which was with those links, where an israeli kid was walking around with a rifle.
I'm pretty sure if we did a vote, buffalo roam would be the only one that would vote for israel...

i mean...do you REALLY believe that every single thing that the Israelis have done is good? I mean out of the millions of displaced/killed palestinians, there has to be SOME parts were they've gone wrong? (personally I reckon they've gone wrong everywhere) and instead of the Palestinians having to put up with them, it should be the Germans. Afterall it was the Germans not the Palestinians who had treated the Jews so badly.

And now the Jews have just gone ahead and started treating the Palestinians like shit even though the Palestinians havent done anything. It's fuckin ridiculous.

And I really hate all this anti-semitic load of crap bullshit. This word USED to have a bloody valued meaning. Now it just means anyone who doesn't agree with Israel going around and killing whoever the hell they want. Stop calling me anti-semitic. For two reasons and that's one of them.

And the other one is: the names Isaac Levi. My great grandparents on my mother's side were Jewish, who immigrated to Australia after the holocaust with their children. And just because my (now deceased) great grandparents were Jewish, it doesn't mean I have to agree with this slaughter and humiliation of innocent Palestinians which occurs daily.


So please,
don't call me an anti-semetic bigot.

Ja'far at-Tahir
08-03-10, 07:52 AM
http://www.kawther.info/ga2/d/1320-2/born+to+kill_jpeg.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=TMP_SESSION_ID _DI_NOISSES_PMT

http://www.mideastyouth.com/wp-content/uploads/Tought-to-kill11.jpg

http://www.voicesofpalestine.org/outrageous/photos/bornto.jpg

Ja'far at-Tahir
08-03-10, 07:53 AM
Terrorist!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZxKAf8oOwtI/SjkgEbF_d5I/AAAAAAAAbyE/W2TecQ0saD0/s400/idf.bmp

http://www.redress.cc/userfiles/image/holocaust_backfires.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QN9N3H0WQNM/SYFrCMvLR4I/AAAAAAAAAaQ/n2fUq99B_pE/s400/brave_idf_soldier.jpg

spidergoat
08-09-10, 07:05 PM
And Jews sabotaged Europe, manipulate world banks, and created the conditions necessary for both World Wars.

http://www.theonion.com/video/overcome-stress-by-visualizing-it-as-a-greedy-hook,17828/

Buffalo Roam
08-09-10, 08:07 PM
http://www.kawther.info/ga2/d/1320-2/born+to+kill_jpeg.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=TMP_SESSION_ID _DI_NOISSES_PMT

Yes, if you look closely it is called Photoshop, and not a very good job at that, the letters don't even follow the curvature of the vest or the wrinkles of the material


[IMG]http://www.mideastyouth.com/wp-content/uploads/Tought-to-kill11.jpg

Again if you care to look the weapons are cabled down to the table, now please show any training in weapons going on.


[IMG]http://www.voicesofpalestine.org/outrageous/photos/bornto.jpg

Yes, voices of palestine.org, outrageous photos, and this proves what? funny thing, is in every photo of any Israel Soldier I have ever seen the only makings on their helmets have been tactical, and can this be positively be identified as a Israel Soldier? No.

Now add to that, the PC environment that the Israeli Military operates under, and do you really think that any markings like that would be tolerated?

And why in English alphabet, and not the Hebrew alphabet? isn't that what Israel teaches and uses in it's schools?

Yes, a interesting point to note, pictures from a Palestinian propaganda site, of Israelis, and the messages are written in English, very curious.

Buffalo Roam
08-09-10, 08:36 PM
funny. there's another one you forgot to show which was with those links, where an israeli kid was walking around with a rifle.
I'm pretty sure if we did a vote, buffalo roam would be the only one that would vote for israel....

So please,
don't call me an anti-semetic bigot.

Well then post both side honestly.

Yes, and the format here only allows 3 pictures per post, and if you care to look at that picture, guess what, that is a toy rifle, a piece of pipe on a wooden stock, no reciever, no bolt, no ejection port, with a wooden magazine, no flash suppressor, no muzzel brake.



http://muslimmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/hebron_settler_children.jpg

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/301772/military_training_at_a_summer_camp/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB7nMZOjxyw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDxak15kDbU&feature=related

spidergoat
08-09-10, 08:44 PM
Israelis are not raised to be wimps. All of them have to serve in the military, many of them know war firsthand. Don't see what the big deal is.

Skeptical
08-09-10, 09:28 PM
Hate breeds hate, and aggression breeds aggression.

Hamas is not a 'nice' organisation. However, they came into existense in response to the equally nasty Israeli force, which should never have been given authority over the Palestinians, who are the people who lived in Palestine for 1400 years, before being invaded and occupied.

OK. We are not going to go back to a time with no Israelis. They are there to stay, wrong though it is. However, if the Israelis had any decency at all, they would be bending over backwards to recognise the rights of the Palestinians.

Instead, they are doing the opposite. In my opinion, this is the nasty side of denial. They are so determined to deny that they are in the wrong that they over-react. As a result, they behave like neo-Nazis.

Brian Foley
08-09-10, 10:07 PM
Why did Bin Laden turn to hit america

Very simple once you understand the nature of American economic criminality in the mideast and I will explain it for you . Just look at the targets they selected for 9/11 to see why Bin Laden hit Americ.

1) The 1st and 2nd planes targeted the World Trade Centre was because it represented to those hijackers the financial colonization of the mideast by America as each year $1 trillion is injected into the American economy from control of the mideast oilfields . This is at the expence of the Arabs who mostly live in 3rd world squalor whilst those trillions of dollars goes to benefit that nation of overfed fat bastards .

2 ) The 3rd plane targeted the Pentagon because this represents to those mideast nations the military instrument of terror that America weilds enthusiastically over that region . Those cowardly bastards in the American military employ without hesitation highly advanced and lethal military technology and applications on literally defenceless mideast nations or nations that don-t have adequate means of fighting back .

3 ) Now this 4th plane was shotdown as their is enough evidence to suggest now . The official story was that it was heading to Camp David , it wasnt it was heading for the CIA building , this follows a logical targeting sequence of American establishments of oppression in the mideast the CIA represents to those Hijackers the main American establishment that sets up corrupt regimes such as the Saudi royal family and Sadam Hussein to act as enforcers of market policy , suppressors of popular determination and protectors of economic policies on behalf of American business interests .

Skeptical
08-09-10, 10:23 PM
Brian

You can be truthful with us. So please feel free to confess. You don't like America very much, do you?

When you think about why Bin Laden attacked America, always remember that his first and main target is, and always has been, his fellow Muslims. He and Al Qaeda kill Muslims wholesale. Americans only retail.

So why did he attack America? The official story, as I read it, is from his Saudi Arabian beginnings. He apparently resented the American presense. Of course, hate builds hate, and he has, no doubt, come up with a million different rationalisations as to why Americans are evil.

Sad really. The most evil one is Bin Laden.

Buffalo Roam
08-09-10, 10:49 PM
Hate breeds hate, and aggression breeds aggression.

Hamas is not a 'nice' organisation. However, they came into existense in response to the equally nasty Israeli force, which should never have been given authority over the Palestinians, who are the people who lived in Palestine for 1400 years, before being invaded and occupied.

OK. We are not going to go back to a time with no Israelis. They are there to stay, wrong though it is. However, if the Israelis had any decency at all, they would be bending over backwards to recognise the rights of the Palestinians.

Instead, they are doing the opposite. In my opinion, this is the nasty side of denial. They are so determined to deny that they are in the wrong that they over-react. As a result, they behave like neo-Nazis.

If the Arabs of Palestine had any decency at all they would be bending over backwards to recognise the rights of the Israelis to live in Peace.

Instead, they are doing the opposite. In my opinion, this is the nasty side of denial. They are so determined to deny that they are in the wrong that they over-react, they behave like Nazis.

In point of fact one of the best selling books in Gaza is Mein Kampf, along with the rest of the Muslim World, only there it is Called My Jihad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1388161/Mein-Kampf-for-sale-in-Arabic.html

Mein Kampf for sale, in Arabic

By Sean O'Neill and John Steele
Published: 12:01AM GMT 19 Mar 2002

AN Arabic translation of Hitler's Mein Kampf which has become a bestseller in the Palestinian territories is now on sale in Britain.

Skeptical
08-09-10, 10:59 PM
Buffalo

You missed the point entirely.

Israel rightly is part of Palestine. Palestine belongs to the Palestinians who lived there without any Israelis for 1400 years. Israel came into existence because of military invasion and occupation.

Quite simply, Israel has no right to the land, and certainly have no right to claim authority over the people.

If that was done in your country, I have no doubt that you would be enormously angry, and filled with support for those who would oppose the invaders. If the Palestinians fight back against the oppressor, that is the natural response.

I suspect though, that you are a Christian. Christians tend to get all arse backwards in their attitude to Israel. That is because of a self serving set of writings in a book written by and for tribal stone age barbarians who never bathed and herded sheep for a living.

If you actually followed the teachings of Christ, you would be more accepting of the rightful aspirations of the Palestinian people. Christ taught charity, understanding and kindness. He most definitely did not teach cruelty and oppression. But then, the Israelis, like most so-called Christians, actually pay little heed to what Christ taught.

Buffalo Roam
08-09-10, 11:36 PM
Buffalo

You missed the point entirely.

Israel rightly is part of Palestine. Palestine belongs to the Palestinians who lived there without any Israelis for 1400 years. Israel came into existence because of military invasion and occupation.

Quite simply, Israel has no right to the land, and certainly have no right to claim authority over the people.

If that was done in your country, I have no doubt that you would be enormously angry, and filled with support for those who would oppose the invaders. If the Palestinians fight back against the oppressor, that is the natural response.

I suspect though, that you are a Christian. Christians tend to get all arse backwards in their attitude to Israel. That is because of a self serving set of writings in a book written by and for tribal stone age barbarians who never bathed and herded sheep for a living.

If you actually followed the teachings of Christ, you would be more accepting of the rightful aspirations of the Palestinian people. Christ taught charity, understanding and kindness. He most definitely did not teach cruelty and oppression. But then, the Israelis, like most so-called Christians, actually pay little heed to what Christ taught.

No it is you, who don't get the point, starting with the fact that Jews aren't Christians, they have never recognized Jesus, and there was never a state or nation called Palestine, or a people named as such, all a major stumbling block to your rational.

And again your anti Semitic, and anti Christianity are showing through.

What aspirations of the Palestinian People? the Destruction of the Jews? not a very Christian Ideal, the destruction of a race of People because they are not Muslim, won't recognize Mohammed as Allahs Prohpet, and are not going to stand still and be made Dhimmis again or pay the Jizya.

What Palestinian People? they were subjects of the Ottoman Empire, until the the Ottomans lost WWI and by treaty gave mandate of the lands to Britain, and then and only then were those lands formally called the Palestinian Mandate.

No, Israel came into being by U.N. Action, General Council Resolution 181 passed, 29 November 1947 by a vote of 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions.

Just as every other state in the area came into existence, from the British and French Mandates.

Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan.

The proposed plan was accepted by the leaders of the Jewish community in Palestine, through the Jewish Agency.[2][3] However, the plan was rejected by leaders of the Arab community (the Palestine Arab Higher Committee etc.),[4][2] who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League. In a communication to the United Nations Palestine Commission dated 19 January 1948, the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine stated that it was "determined [to] persist in rejection [to the] partition and in refusal [to] recognize UNO resolution [with] this respect and anything deriving therefrom".

2.^ a b Antony Best (2004). International history of the twentieth century and beyond.. London: Routledge. pp. 120. ISBN 0-4-5-20739.
3.^ Martin Gilbert (1998). Israel: A History. UK: Doubleday. pp. 149. ISBN 0-688-12362-7.
4.^ George Lenczowski (1962). The Middle East in World Affairs. Cornell University Press. pp. 396. ISBN 62-16343.
5.^ United Nations Palestine Commission communication from the representative of the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine (A/AC.21/6), 19 January 1948

Skeptical
08-10-10, 12:43 AM
Buffalo

For a start, I am not anti-semitic. I am, to a degree, anti-Israeli, but only because of the shocking way they treat the Palestinians.

I am not anti-christian. I am anti-religion, or more properly, I am pro-rational thought, which appears to have little to do with religion.

The aspirations of the Palestinian people I am talking about are the desire for sovereignty, for a nation of their own, for a chance to live without repression, to earn a good living and raise their families without persecution.

The fact that Palestine was once part of the Ottoman empire is of little relevance. So was much of Eastern Europe, and it is now made up of independent nations.

In the same way, the fact that the United Nations was a party to this terrible injustice makes it just as much of an injustice. The Palestinian people were invaded, and in many cases, tossed out of their homes and made to leave, becoming refugees, for no fault of their own.

Other states in the region were populated by local people, who stayed there. Israel was populated by Palestinians, many of whom were forced from their homes and made to leave. Instead, their homes were occupied by invaders - Jews who became Israelis.

Nothing you say alters the terrible fact that the land that became Israel was home to a people who had been there 1400 years and had that home stolen off them. The action was morally equivalent to robbery at gunpoint.

And you choose to support those who held the guns. What the parties did, all them, Jewish, American, British, French, and UN, was utterly despicable!

hypewaders
08-10-10, 01:06 AM
Mod Note: This discussion is drifting off topic. Further examination of the question of Israel/Palestine belongs in the thread I'm linking below, because al-Qaeda are not champions, but exploiters of the Palestinian cause. I'll delete any further posts here that center on Palestine/Israel.

One Thread To Rule Them All: Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=39119)

kathaksung
08-12-10, 12:57 PM
Bin Laden is an asset of the US intelligence. When US wants to hit Russia, Bin Laden became resistence, he led Mujahidden to fight against Russian. When Russia collapsed, and US wants to deal with oil rich countries, he became a false flag terrorist and justified the US "war on terror". At that time, they call his troops "Al Qaida".

Osama was an asset of CIA and was used to fight against Soviet Union in 80s. At that time Bin Laden's group was called as Majahideen. Qaida was used as a data base in communiction.

In early 90, when Soviet Union collapsed, US intelligence turned its resource on to Mid-east countries which are rich in oil resource, they revive the retired asset - Bin Laden. Bin Laden returned to Islamic world trying to provoke a conflict so that US could justify an interference and invasion.

On 2001, when US inside group had their puppet Bush to be the president, the war was ready. 911 was done to justify the war. To prevent people to link the "terror attack" with Islamic fannatic (Mujahedeen) and CIA, US intelligence then starts to use "Al Qaida" as "terrorist" group to justify the "war on terror". Since then, they blame every terror attack on "Al qaida". Al Qaida could be viewed as a group of special opratives commanded by US intelligence. Their mission is to activate false flag terror attack on civilians to justify US military action.

What Al Qaida did - bombing WTC, killing US civilians on 911, and bombing innocent civilians in Iraq, all targetted at ordinary people. It tarnished Islam as savage, inhuman, cruel. Who benefited? Who expanded the police power by Patriot Act? Who got fat budget? If you can answer these questions, then you know what is Al Qaida - a tool of US intelligence.