Why should people believe in God?

Good question.

I've never heard a good answer.

As there is no purpose shown for the cosmos, or even if some people retreat to "can't possibly know", then we are still all free to make whatever meaning we choose out of our existence, as existence, in addition, must ever take priority over essence, but for SciForum discussions, since it is ever present, we having been thrust into it… and so it is that one can choose to believe in God for reasons of comfort.

Because they need something to belive in, they just can't believe in themselves. Nothing wrong with any belief as long as they don't make it a fact and keep fact and fiction seperate.

I think it would be better to say;

"Because they might need something to belive in, or they might not believe in themselves."

Why should people believe in God?
Just because we cannot see God through either a telescope or a microscope is no reason to assume that he does not exist.

Just because we cannot see God through either a telescope or a microscope is no reason to assume that he does not exist.

This is not the thrust of the question.


Why good will it do me to search and find God?
What benefit is there for me in believing in God?
What will I really lose if I don't believe in God?

Blaise Pascal had a good reason why you should:


Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal that, even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose. Pascal formulated his suggestion uniquely on the God of Jesus Christ as implied by the greater context of his Pensées, a posthumously published collection of notes made by Pascal in his last years as he worked on a treatise on Christian apologetics. However, some argue that Pascal's Wager also applies to gods of other religions and belief systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

This is not the thrust of the question.


Why good will it do me to search and find God?
What benefit is there for me in believing in God?
What will I really lose if I don't believe in God?
In short being unconditioned is a prerequisite for getting free from conditioned life - not meeting that grade simply means one will be decked with any of the millions of life in the pursuit of (ephemeral) desire

This is not the thrust of the question.


Why good will it do me to search and find God?
What benefit is there for me in believing in God?
What will I really lose if I don't believe in God?
1. According to CS Lewis, you will find joy, unlike any other joy you've experienced before on this earth. Any happiness, any enjoyable sensation, they will all fail to match the joy from one's connection with God. It isn't easily attained, and it requires faith and acts to maintain, but it is well worth it.

2. Aside from the spiritual benefits, will could constitute a whole other thread, let's focus on the more temporal aspects. First, there is a peace you receive. You have your faith in the Lord, and you trust that He will guide us, give us strength, and urge us to gain salvation. Additionally, you gain direction to your life. You now have what God asks of you as a compass in decision making. Whereas you may have done some immoral or less-than-noble action in the past out of self-interest, you will now act (God-willing) in accordance with what the Lord has commanded us to do. Lastly, you will join a community of believers who share similar interests, have faced similar struggles, and can help you, through prayer and action, when times are tough. However, I want to stress that NONE of these reasons are sufficient to 'justify' a belief in God. One must truly seek God for the right reasons - these are just things that happen as a result. For if you seek the temporal, you will not gain the eternal.

3. You won't really 'lose' anything in that sense. If you were a believer and stopped believing, you never actually lose anything (well, other than a loving relationship with God and the chances of salvation, but even that isn't lost forever). You can ignore it, try to run from it, denounce it, detest it, do whatever you want with it. But once you know and believe in the truth, it will always be the truth to you, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise.

Why should people believe in God?

There's no convincing reason that I know of why people should.

I don't feel any guilt over my own failure to believe, nor do I feel like I'm shirking my religious responsibilities or anything.

Of course, if I instead believed that God exists, then I'd probably respond that it's best to believe in important truths, especially ones that are as transcendentally important as God - when our very salvation depends on it. Or whatever it is that my tradition had taught me to think.

But I don't believe in God, so the 'why should' question is kind of a non-issue for me.

A similar question that I am intellectually engaged with is the -- 'why do people believe in God' question. There's no longer any suggestion that people are in any way obligated to believe in God. But the fact remains that throughout history most people have indeed believed in God, or in gods or spirits or heavenly powers of many sorts, and that's something that still needs to be explained.

That's why I'm interested in things like the emerging cognitive science of religion.

A similar question that I am intellectually engaged with is the -- 'why do people believe in God' question. There's no longer any suggestion that people are in any way obligated to believe in God. But the fact remains that throughout history most people have indeed believed in God, or in gods or spirits or heavenly powers of many sorts, and that's something that still needs to be explained.

I believe in God because the life, death and teaching of Jesus reflect the fact that everything we consider most precious on earth - truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love - converge in the reality of one loving Father in heaven. It's as simple as that! The alternative is a barren, empty, meaningless desert of futility...

There's no convincing reason that I know of why people should.

I don't feel any guilt over my own failure to believe, nor do I feel like I'm shirking my religious responsibilities or anything.

Of course, if I instead believed that God exists, then I'd probably respond that it's best to believe in important truths, especially ones that are as transcendentally important as God - when our very salvation depends on it. Or whatever it is that my tradition had taught me to think.

But I don't believe in God, so the 'why should' question is kind of a non-issue for me.

A similar question that I am intellectually engaged with is the -- 'why do people believe in God' question. There's no longer any suggestion that people are in any way obligated to believe in God. But the fact remains that throughout history most people have indeed believed in God, or in gods or spirits or heavenly powers of many sorts, and that's something that still needs to be explained.

That's why I'm interested in things like the emerging cognitive science of religion.

i think it's actually very simple and obvious. it's because of the conscious, emotional and cerebral aspects of life which can't be concretely seen at all times but experienced.

it's the essence of life is why people use terms like spirits. some need something more concrete so define it as a entity called god etc.

But I don't believe in God, so the 'why should' question is kind of a non-issue for me.

I suppose that you, however, do believe in justice, love, truthfulness, beauty, inquiry, ... and that you also feel some measure of necessity or obligation to believe in these things - right?


(According to some religious traditions, believing in these is an indirect belief in God, since God is understood as being the source of these things.)

Those are parts of human nature... I don't know why you need a personification for them...

Why should people believe in God?

I don't think believing is a choice, but if one makes the choice, then
the reason becomes the individuals.

jan.

I believe in God because the life, death and teaching of Jesus reflect the fact that everything we consider most precious on earth - truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love - converge in the reality of one loving Father in heaven. It's as simple as that! The alternative is a barren, empty, meaningless desert of futility...

People find those qualities without the teaching of Jesus, and would not
doubt find your analasys of the ''the alternative'' an insult to them.
Don't you think you're being quite arrogant?

jan.

I believe in karma. I believe in good actions and good reactions. I believe a religion can be centered around a set of good ethics that are true and unchangable over time.

I believe there is good and bad in the world and most of it is bad. But there is good in the world too and it's admirable to follow that path.

And I believe there is a God behind it all.

It is possible to consider that we are working our way towards immortal thought- to transferring or creating immortal machines that are our higher functions that live on for million of years. In this case we're all the Play-Dough that will ultimately become a permanent sentient prescence in the universe.

What would be better than being able to live a billion or more years and travel the universe in your thought machine?

I believe in karma. I believe in good actions and good reactions. I believe a religion can be centered around a set of good ethics that are true and unchangable over time.

I believe there is good and bad in the world and most of it is bad. But there is good in the world too and it's admirable to follow that path.

And I believe there is a God behind it all.

It is possible to consider that we are working our way towards immortal thought- to transferring or creating immortal machines that are our higher functions that live on for million of years. In this case we're all the Play-Dough that will ultimately become a permanent sentient prescence in the universe.

What would be better than being able to live a billion or more years and travel the universe in your thought machine?

Of course we could possibly do all that anyway without supernatural help.


Blaise Pascal had a good reason why you should:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

False dichotomy. Has a lot of assumptions, the main one being that the god is the christian one.

The Atheist's Wager is better, as it covers all bases, and only fails if you have a god that isn't benevolent, in which case you were probably in trouble anyway.

Of course we could possibly do all that anyway without supernatural help.



False dichotomy. Has a lot of assumptions, the main one being that the god is the christian one.

The Atheist's Wager is better, as it covers all bases, and only fails if you have a god that isn't benevolent, in which case you were probably in trouble anyway.

Yes i kinda agree. BUT you can use Pascal's Wager for something. Namely to find out which religion is the best one to choose game mechanically. The right religion to pick (as they all have the same chance of being right), would be the one with most to gain by believing it and most to loose by being non believer.

I don't think believing is a choice, but if one makes the choice, then
the reason becomes the individuals.

I don't understand this.

What do you mean by "then the reason becomes the individuals"?

For example saying "I believe in God for my own sake"?

Ever thought about the possibility that believers don't have a choice in "Belief".


Read my thread "Forced atheist, Forced Belief" and prove my theory wrong if you think belief is a simple choice.


Peace

Yes i kinda agree. BUT you can use Pascal's Wager for something. Namely to find out which religion is the best one to choose game mechanically. The right religion to pick (as they all have the same chance of being right), would be the one with most to gain by believing it and most to loose by being non believer.

Except that we cannot really calculate the gains and losses in advance, we can only make some estimations and predictions, and we must also somehow calculate the strain that such a "religious choice" would have on our life.

IRL, rationalizations/intellectualizations tend cause a lot of stress, people become neurotic from using defense mechanisms a lot.
We might somehow calculate which religious belief pays off the most, but unless that belief comes naturally to us, we will be under a lot of strain and will live in misery for the rest of our lives - thereby making it much more likely that we will sooner or later abandon the belief we have adopted based on such a calculation. Which brings us back to the beginning, but with less time, energy and opportunities available.

Except that we cannot really calculate the gains and losses in advance, we can only make some estimations and predictions, and we must also somehow calculate the strain that such a "religious choice" would have on our life.

IRL, rationalizations/intellectualizations tend cause a lot of stress, people become neurotic from using defense mechanisms a lot.
We might somehow calculate which religious belief pays off the most, but unless that belief comes naturally to us, we will be under a lot of strain and will live in misery for the rest of our lives - thereby making it much more likely that we will sooner or later abandon the belief we have adopted based on such a calculation. Which brings us back to the beginning, but with less time, energy and opportunities available.



Could you please add some input in my "forced Atheism" thread, you seem to understand the point im trying to make, maybe you can articulate to certain people in a way I cannot.


Peace.

I don't understand this.

What do you mean by "then the reason becomes the individuals"?

For example saying "I believe in God for my own sake"?

Yes.
Or;

because I don't want to go to hell
I want to go to heaven
I want to be a good person
I want liberation from this material world

ect...

jan.

I believe in God because the life, death and teaching of Jesus reflect the fact that everything we consider most precious on earth - truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love - converge in the reality of one loving Father in heaven. It's as simple as that! The alternative is a barren, empty, meaningless desert of futility...

I recognize truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love without god. How is that possible?

I recognize truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love without god. How is that possible?


Because you are a child of god you just haven't realized it yet ^_^.


Peace

Good question.

I've never heard a good answer.

how about; many people don't have a better reason to stay moral

Because you are a child of god you just haven't realized it yet ^_^.


Peace

Nope, try again. Is it only the monotheist god that can make this possible, or do all these gods (http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_myth_gods_index.htm) work too?

Nope, try again. Is it only the monotheist god that can make this possible, or do all these gods (http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_myth_gods_index.htm) work too?

The creator is the only god, just because you give some-thing a name and a back story doesn't make it a god.

The creator has many names but he isn't a divided house he is absolute in his rule/


Peace.

just because you give some-thing a name and a back story doesn't make it a god.
Agreed.
So how do you justify this:

The creator is the only god

The creator is the only god, just because you give some-thing a name and a back story doesn't make it a god.

The creator has many names but he isn't a divided house he is absolute in his rule/


Peace.

Why are you any more correct than the millions of polytheists before you? Just acknowledging the possibility of something doesn't mean you can know it's attributes.

Agreed.
So how do you justify this:



Ibelieve that many people have tried to use god's to explain things they don't understand, people create god's for near enough anything For example Greek culture and Japanese Shintoists for example there is a god for everything, even a god of local farming produce, sometimes family's even invent their own "personal god's"


I attribute God to the creation of everything without ant dicision, Strict un adultered Monotheist without any exceptions.

I do rexognize and understand your opposing position and that you can just say "Isn't that just another god but now he created everything instead of just one thing" I don't give this god an image though I don't claim to know anything about what he looks like, I Simply acknowledge his art and his creations and considermyselfone of his creations justlike a planet or a tree is.


Peace.

Since you recognise this argument:
[QUOTE]Isn't that just another god
Then why this particular one:


I attribute God to the creation of everything without ant dicision


I Simply acknowledge his art and his creations and considermyselfone of his creations justlike a planet or a tree is.
What do you mean "acknowledge"?

Why are you any more correct than the millions of polytheists before you? Just acknowledging the possibility of something doesn't mean you can know it's attributes.


Because I believe that god has sent down messengers and prophets, I also believe what certain prophets have said regarding god's thought on polytheism, he is not blind to what we do and he does have opinions and he objects to us associating partners with him because he says he is an undivided house and there is no debate that he is alpha and omega without competition.


Peace.

Because I believe that god has sent down messengers and prophets, I also believe what certain prophets have said regarding god's thought on polytheism
Why do you believe?


there is no debate that he is alpha and omega without competition.
Nonsense.

[QUOTE=EmptyForceOfChi;2729556]Since you recognise this argument:

Then why this particular one:




What do you mean "acknowledge"?



Because after studying all the scriptures and after my life experiences and also upon many days of meditations over years I have come to conclusions. I understand my conclusions are not your conclusions and the one I worship is not the one you worship.


By acknowledge I mean I have under-stood Beauty and what it is, I have given credit to the un -een creator for this artistic beauty, I have visual and vibrational confirmation of this artistic existence of the universe and it's orderly functions.

peace.

Why do you believe?


Nonsense.

I trust in the messages of the prophets and the wisdom they have all brought, Im not just talking about the middle eastern prophets either, am talking about every messenger who has come bearing words and pearls of wisdom tog uide humanity into being moral good people who stand by justice and good intentions.


I don't think I speak nonesense, maybe you do not feel what I say is true and you are your own man with your own mind If you do not believe what I say to be true then so be it.


Peace.

Yes i kinda agree. BUT you can use Pascal's Wager for something. Namely to find out which religion is the best one to choose game mechanically.

You are going to encounter a problem with "best" there. The Pascalian argument seems to be ignoring the question of whether or not a candidate object of worship is suitable, whether it really deserves our devotion. (More on that below.)

There's also going to be a problem with the idea of "choosing" a religion. Can we simply will ourselves to believe something as easily as all that? In Pascal's case, I don't think that he was really trying to create an argument that would convince anyone to convert. He was trying to justify the rationality of his own already-existing Christian faith.


The right religion to pick (as they all have the same chance of being right)

Do we really know that all religious beliefs have the same chance of being right? I don't think that it's true. Some religious systems are kind of generic (perhaps proposing an unknown "higher power" that may or may not be reflected very imperfectly in all religious traditions) while other religious systems stoutly claim the inerrancy of tremendously involved mythologies and make very specific and testable claims about origins, cosmology, the etiology of things like disease, and miraculous historical events of all kinds.


would be the one with most to gain by believing it and most to loose by being non believer.

A major problem with spinning things that way is that it favors the most crude and savage sorts of religion. According to this hard-Pascalian argument, it would be most rational for us to believe that unbelievers receive the most merciless and abominable tortures in hell for all of eternity without any hope of respite, because that sort of vision would give us the most to gain by believing whatever it takes in order to avoid it.

I think that we see that kind of 'hit'em-with-a-club' rhetorical strategy being used over and over again in the history of religion, in hopes of scaring people into faith.

Unfortunately, it also has the effect of reversing God and Satan, turning Satan into the most sympathetic figure in the myth. Satan knows that he's a created being, he knows from the very beginning that his rebellion is doomed to failure, but he nevertheless takes the moral stand and says "NO!!!", refusing to bend a knee and worship omnipotent evil.

That's tremendous nobility, a kind of nobility that God could never understand.

Yes.
Or;

because I don't want to go to hell
I want to go to heaven
I want to be a good person
I want liberation from this material world

ect...

Would you say that believing in God on the grounds of reasons is inferior to "just believing"?

By acknowledge I mean I have under-stood Beauty and what it is, I have given credit to the un -een creator for this artistic beauty, I have visual and vibrational confirmation of this artistic existence of the universe and it's orderly functions.
Vibrational? :wtf:


I trust in the messages of the prophets and the wisdom they have all brought, Im not just talking about the middle eastern prophets either, am talking about every messenger who has come bearing words and pearls of wisdom tog uide humanity into being moral good people who stand by justice and good intentions.
Trust?
The same sort trust you had when told that Mecca is the centre of the Earth?
Ah right: you chose Allah because of all the "prophets" of all the religions. :confused:

Would you say that believing in God on the grounds of reasons is inferior to "just believing"?

Not necessarily.
It depends on the circumstances.


jan.

Not necessarily.
It depends on the circumstances.

Can you give some examples?

Vibrational?

Get in touch with your inner groove!

Vibrational? :wtf:


Trust?
The same sort trust you had when told that Mecca is the centre of the Earth?
Ah right: you chose Allah because of all the "prophets" of all the religions. :confused:


Vibrational beauty yes, what comes to mind when I say this what do you think I am refering to?



Not quite the same trust no, Did you notice how quickly I dicarded my belief in that particular instance?, I wasn't bias to my stance I took you (An atheist) as the corrector of truths on that occasion, regardless of your position I learned something from you and im not ashamed of being corrected by you I take is as me learning not failing.


Peace.

Vibrational beauty yes, what comes to mind when I say this what do you think I am refering to?
I have no idea. Hence the "WTF?" comment.


Not quite the same trust no, Did you notice how quickly I dicarded my belief in that particular instance?, I wasn't bias to my stance I took you (An atheist) as the corrector of truths on that occasion, regardless of your position I learned something from you and im not ashamed of being corrected by you I take is as me learning not failing.
So what you're saying is that you're less inclined to question your beliefs/ check the background on this particular subject?

I have no idea. Hence the "WTF?" comment.


So what you're saying is that you're less inclined to question your beliefs/ check the background on this particular subject?



Sound.



I will check things whenever I am reminded to check them, I presented something foolishly and you proved the calculations to be false and I accepted they were false, what's the problem?


peace.

Sound.
And you found it easier to type "vibrational" than you did "sound"? Okay.


I will check things whenever I am reminded to check them, I presented something foolishly and you proved the calculations to be false and I accepted they were false, what's the problem?
You don't seem to check the rest of your beliefs as quickly...

And you found it easier to type "vibrational" than you did "sound"? Okay.


You don't seem to check the rest of your beliefs as quickly...


Who said I found it easier?, how do you know which belief I have and have not "checked" ?.


peace

Who said I found it easier?
So you were being deliberately obscure?


how do you know which belief I have and have not "checked" ?
Your belief in Allah. Which you have admitted you "just believe" and resort to insults when pressed on the subject.

So you were being deliberately obscure?


Your belief in Allah. Which you have admitted you "just believe" and resort to insults when pressed on the subject.


Are you being obscure when you use a slightly longer word instead of a shorter word that might exist?. I Chose to say Vibrational instead of "Sound based beauty" Do you really need to pick arguments with my choice of vocabulary?


My belief in god is based upon thousands of reasons not just one and I do not wish to explain every single reason why i bvelieve in god to somebody who is not asking for honest reasons, You don't want to consider what I say or to learn from my messages, you want to pick them apart and wage your personal war on god upon me his loyal servant.

I Chose to say Vibrational instead of "Sound based beauty" Do you really need to pick arguments with my choice of vocabulary?
Absolutely, since, as you have seen, the use of "vibrational" made your meaning unclear.


My belief in god is based upon thousands of reasons not just one and I do not wish to explain every single reason why i bvelieve in god to somebody who is not asking for honest reasons, You don't want to consider what I say or to learn from my messages, you want to pick them apart and wage your personal war on god upon me his loyal servant.
And you're assuming again.
In other words you're deciding why I'm asking - incorrectly - as well as, apparently, not being sure enough of your reasons to put them up for examination. Okay.

Absolutely, since, as you have seen, the use of "vibrational" made your meaning unclear.


And you're assuming again.
In other words you're deciding why I'm asking - incorrectly - as well as, apparently, not being sure enough of your reasons to put them up for examination. Okay.


Are you going give it a break yet? your an argument machine you don't want to discuss you want to argue.


Your basicaly trying to insinuate I don't have any logical right to worship god, and yes I said worship him because im not just a believer I Bow down to him in submission to his awesome greatness.


Peace.

Are you going give it a break yet? your an argument machine you don't want to discuss you want to argue.
More projection.


Your basicaly trying to insinuate I don't have any logical right to worship god
And again. Why so defensive?
Unsure?
Insecure?

and yes I said worship him because im not just a believer I Bow down to him in submission to his awesome greatness.

this almost sounds like you are joking. lol

Can you give some examples?

One may decide to believe in God because their boy/girlfriend is religious, but end up believing.

jan.

this almost sounds like you are joking. lol

Lol im not joking, maybe it brings a smile to your face though, which it should because god is great.


Allah Hu Akbar!

More projection.


And again. Why so defensive?
Unsure?
Insecure?



Ok then.

One may decide to believe in God because their boy/girlfriend is religious, but end up believing.

That is a strange situation.

That is a strange situation.

Maybe, but it happens in all kinds of situations.

jan.

No, I mean that the one who has the more worked-out personal belief system or adherence to a religious tradition also gets the upper hand in the relationship.
The lesser person is then effectively pushed out of the relationship, or remains in it as a mere puppet.

No, I mean that the one who has the more worked-out personal belief system or adherence to a religious tradition also gets the upper hand in the relationship.
The lesser person is then effectively pushed out of the relationship, or remains in it as a mere puppet.

The attraction for both parties change. What was before, is now no more.
At this junction decisions have to be made.

Two physically beautifull people may fall in love, all of a sudden ones beauty may be compramised due to illness, or accident. At that point, a reality of the relationship becomes tested. On what basis did they love each other?

jan.

The attraction for both parties change. What was before, is now no more.
At this junction decisions have to be made.

Two physically beautifull people may fall in love, all of a sudden ones beauty may be compramised due to illness, or accident. At that point, a reality of the relationship becomes tested. On what basis did they love each other?


Obviously, relationships begin, and end.
It just hurts to be the lesser one and not being able to do much about it.

In short being unconditioned is a prerequisite for getting free from conditioned life

This looks like a double bind.

:confused: