I saw a very interesting TV program yesterday. It was an interview with publisher of the magazine named „Evil”. When the question was asked: Why there in no any the magazines about pure right things in the market. She (the publisher is a woman) answered that the right is generally bored and that such magazine has no chance to be profitable. I was shocked, but I had to confirm: Yes, I like to see TV news about various disasters and if bigger disaster, bigger interesting, I like watch the news about corrupted politics and again: more corruption, more interesting, I like to talk with my friends about bad things which happened to the others. I see around that I’m not only one with such approach. Tell me why, we are such excited with the evil in this world.
Micah is searching our real enemy in this world and I can see that He is searching it somewhere outside. Haven’t you all got the impression that the evil can be some kind of dark music which playing on this world and that each of us is a member of the orchestra. One plays louder, the other plays silently, but almost every one of us plays this music. The question: If there is a conductor or not, isn’t a good question I think, because there is no music without an orchestra. I want to know what is the „string” in ourselves which is in resonance with this dark music. What is this???
I’m working on it now, but it’s very hard to catch it’s nature. I’d like to see it in full light, but it’s so slimy, that I see only it’s shadow. When I manage to do it I will tell you my conclusion.
Tell me your own impression. Maybe you are more lucky with it.

PS
I’m not interesting what is written in the Bible about it. I’m not interesting what is devil’s purpose. I’m not interesting what someone have to tell about it, what is required by his „mission” on this world……………
Tell me your own impression!


http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/ivan.gif

The Ravens Are Not What They Seem


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Oh, I love this. I want to know what everyone thinks EXCEPT the Christians. You're such an asshole, really. Ok Hilter, how about genetics? There is an answer for everything about us and our propensities in our genes. We know now more than ever that this is where all of the answers lie.

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Lori,
Ease up on the dude... he didn't say that he did not want to hear from christians...he said he wanted your own impression of it.. that's all...

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Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

No, Lori, that's not what he said. He said he doesn't want to know what the bible says, he wants to know "your own impression". You do have opinions of your own that aren't just regurgitation of bible quotes, right??

Ivan -

I think it boils down to simply "misery loves company". We are interested in hearing about other people's misfortunes because by comparison, our own lives seem better.

Lori,

Maybe you don’t see this, but you really hate me – I’m really disappointed.

PS
Where you have found that my previous Post Scriptum exclude all Christians from the discussion?
:confused:
http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/ivan.gif

The Ravens Are Not What They Seem


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Don't be silly, I don't hate you. I don't know you, and may I say that I really don't HATE anyone. I've found that there is only one person in my life that I haven't been able to find ONE good thing about, and fact is that I can't stand him long enough to ever stick around to find that ONE thing, but I'm sure that EVEN HE has ONE good thing about him. This is my point....what if MY (or anyone's) opinion happens to match what the Bible says? That's my problem out on this forum. Non-believers think that believers take everything on faith, and automatically regurgitate the Bible everytime an opinion is required, but that it's not really their opinion, just something that they were told to think. Well, that's not how I or my mind work. I form my own opinion first, then what do you know, every single time, it's backed up in the Bible. So Ivan, how do I answer your question if MY opinion is also backed up in the Bible? And why shouldn't my or anyone's opinions be "allowed" just because it is?

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Ivan, I like your analogy with the orchestra, Devils music indeed.

Without really studying the subject, but just going by my gut,I think the roots of our obsession with 'evil' can probably be traced to our very beginnings as a species and are probably grounded in our need to survive at all odds.
Let,s take some concepts of evil and see if we can trace them back to a scenario where they wouldn't necessarily have been considered as such if it's possible.

Let's take the biggie for starters, murder!
The species is young, self awareness just beginning, life is harsh!
Security is found in the family/clan/tribe, anything or anyone outside of this nuclear unit is considered a very real threat and rightly so. If a stranger attempts to enter the community he is either forced to leave or killed (murdered).They have heard about stray bands of men who wander around attacking villages and stealing the women, they cannot take chances, this is survival.
The tribe will talk about this incident, they will work out a plan of action for the next time a stranger or strangers come to their village, they will have a vested interest in not forgetting about it or any other incident like it and keeping it to the fore of their conciousness.

One of the barren and therefore single women in the tribe is highly sexed (got a diploma 'n everything!) ;) and likes to avail of herself to anyone who has a fancy. The rest of the women have a vested interest to be aware of this and to talk about it, because this woman and others like her are a real threat, they have to keep abreast of all the gossip in case they miss anything and lose out, gossip is self perpetuating, this is survival.

The tribe discovers tools and learn to make weapons, The men go out and hunt, sometimes they return with unique trophies which are kept by the leaders.Some of these trophies, weapons, tools and other material objects are deemed as possesing magical powers or properties which ensure the owner good fortune, they begin to get coveted by people of simple minds and simple means, they begin to get stolen.
Talk and awareness amongst the tribe shifts to stealing and the concept of crime is 'discovered'. It is in their vested interest to talk about it and not to forget about it, after all it may be their turn next,this is survival.

I know that these are greatly simplified examples but I think the point I'm trying to make which is in answer to your actual question, is that ultimately it is to our advantage to be constantly aware and concious of the evil that abounds throughout this Godforsaken world because this is what gives us our human (street) wisdom and without it we would swiftly be devoured by many and sundry.

Maybe the 'good' things aren't so commercially viable because they don't have any shock value, good things are supposed to happen anyway, we're all supposed to be or to do good so why should 'good' be newsworthy? besides, doing good and helping others is supposed to be a personal thing and not to be boasted about or even thought about afterwards.

But I don't think that all we ever talk or think about is bad or evil. Don't we ever talk or think about good friends, times, food, music, films, books, ideas, herb, deeds, proffessional specialists etc etc?

Do not be deceived by the music we are playing, the score isn't written, we are merely improvising within the mood of the times and although it sounds dark and ominous, everything can suddenly change with just one note!
http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Dave you are great.
Thanks to this forum I can warm myself at Mediterranean’s point of view (sent by tablariddim). You have to know that there is about minus 20 degree Centigrade outside my home, so my posts can also be very cold.

Lori,

Thank Goodness you also can discuss soberly!
I think I understand you position, but this time I keen on hearing from you what the answer you got when you asked yourselves about that special “string” which I mentioned about. If you haven’t got such “string” , or you don’t want to follow my request – it’s OK. But I think that in any cases this is the matter of a man (any), not a Christian or Muslim or Buddhism.

Tablariddim,

Hey, I feel that you may be right with the base of our obsession with evil – a little animal, which exists deep in our subconscious since our beginnings as a human beings. It looks reliably.
But in the other hand, I have a compelling impression that such “dark music” plays louder and louder. If you completely right, we have to observe the opposite effect (maybe my point of view is wrong and I have to move to Mediterranean see!).
But if we assume that my impression is common with other people – the question appears:
What feeds that animal?
Is this our modern advertisement techniques or the model of culture promoted by media? – maybe.
But whatsoever it is, the effect cased by it doesn’t look to me like merely improvising, easy to stop by one note. By me it looks like an avalanche, which is possible to stop only when each “rolling stone” can realised its actual situation and understands the value of its decision.
Give me more sun from your places and tell that I’m wrong.

http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/ivan.gif

The Ravens Are Not What They Seem


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You ask what the 'string' is. It is a part of us that enjoys the evil, dark, violent part of life. There is a war in us. Even Freud saw it. The Id vs the Ego, with the super ego to balance it. It is a part of us that wants what it wants when it wants it. To live in a society, it must be held in tight rein. It comes out in this almost pathological curiousity about disasters, bad news, and scandals. To decide to avoid all this stuff takes a choice, a choice to look for the good rather then the evil. "It is better to light one candle then curse the darkness" This is my choice.

<img src ="http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> No, no, no! <font color="red"> We feed on emotion! </font> Violence and destruction create strong emotions.

That's what we desire! We are carnivores who hunger for emotion and for the adrenaline which it might offer!

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It's all very large.



[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited January 24, 2000).]

Ivan,


Yes, I like to see TV news about various disasters and if bigger disaster, bigger interesting, I like watch the news about corrupted politics and again: more corruption, more interesting, I like to talk with my friends about bad things which happened to the others. I see around that I’m not only one with such approach. Tell me why, we are such excited with the evil in this world.

When I was growing up in an inner-city neighborhood, there were many times when I observed a "crowd" getting excited to see two people fist-fighting. While it seemed that everyone else was cheering and loving it, I was the one who could not stand the thought of seeing someone else getting hurt when I knew that there was something that I could do to prevent it. Contrary to what seemed to be the desire of the rest of the "audience," I would always be compelled to take the steps necessary to break-up the fist-fight. (I know, I can be such a party-pooper at times).

Ever since I can remember, my heart has always been saddened by such things as disasters and political corruption. I have a tendency to put myself in the other guy's shoes and I do not find the suffering of others to be entertaining in the least.

I am also not drawn to participate in gossip or idle speculation about the personal lives of others. I understand what you are saying because I have seen so many people drawn to such ways of socializing, however, it has always made me feel uncomfortable. Again, it's probably because I have a tendency to put myself in the other guy's shoes. If something bad happens to one of my friends, rather than speculating and talking about it with others, I find myself going directly to my friend in need to offer any help that I can.

When I was in my early twenties, most of my friends were into watching soap-operas, which I could not stand. Even the music annoyed me. Needless to say, I was "out of" many conversations. When I asked why my friends were so obsessed with watching them, one person said it was because "the lives of the soap-opera characters are so screwed-up, it makes you feel better about your own life." Well, I guess I'm different in that I already feel good about my own life?

Honestly, I cannot relate to why people are excited with evil in this world. For example, I, for one, will be much more "excited" when it is reported that a "cure" has been found for AIDS - as opposed to how it saddens me to know that such a deadly disease has taken the lives of so many around the world.

Different strokes... er, strings...

truestory,

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">Yes, the rainbow has many colors, and everyone has a favorite color.

"Ever since I can remember, my heart has always been saddened by such things as disasters and political corruption. I have a tendency to put myself in the other guy's shoes and I do not find the suffering of others to be entertaining in the least."

But it still stirs an emotional reaction within you?

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It's all very large.

Well, sure, Bowser, sadness is an emotion.

The question was, however, why do we "like" to see such things... My response is... I don't... and I don't seek out such things.

Ivan-I think a lot of people like to read about "evil" things because it makes them feel better by comparison. You know, "Yeah, I cut off that old lady who was trying to cross the street, but at least I'm not stomping on kittens for pornographic entertainment." (I apologize for that image. It's just an example of one of the most vile acts I can think of at this time of the morning.)

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

I was thinking about this last night, and I realized that, for me personally at least, it pretty much varies with what kind of mood I'm in.

If I'm angry at the world (which I find is happening less often nowadays) I tune into the weather station - a good hurricane or natural disaster always helps me up. It makes me feel like I'm not the only one blowing hot air and shaking the earth - kinda like Mother Nature Herself is having a temper tantrum with me. It usually calms me right down, because there before my very eyes is a demonstration on how destructive those emotions are - a much bigger and more obvious example than I would find in my own life, but relevant just the same.

If I'm depressed, I can't stand to watch the news - I empathize too much and it just starts to hurt even more. I have to watch out with depression, it's bitten me on the butt before.

If I'm happy, the news usually makes me want to go down and donate food or time at the local chow line. I want to share my enthusiasm and good will with those that aren't as lucky as I am in this life.

And of course, sometimes there is the news that warms your heart. The tragic death of a child bringing new life to several people - one received his liver, another his bone marrow, another his heart. The toddler finally rescued from a drain pipe. The missing elderly man located after wandering away from his home. This is really the kind of news I'd rather see. Even though bad news can teach a lesson, good news is a lot easier on the soul. :)

Ivan,
I think I may have just touched on parts of the answer in my thoughts.
Could it be mass communication?
the fragmentation of society?
the drive towards affluence?
the anonimity of big city life?

Imagine living around 150-250 years ago. You are probably illiterate so you can't read the few newspapers that do exist and you certainly can't read the bible or other great works of literature. Your education and social awareness is limited to your location which is probably a village or a small town. Maybe you work on a farm or in the fields, maybe you're a miner, or work hard with your hands, this is your lot in life and you tend to be grateful and accept it. Life is tough! but you always have the family or the community to fall back on. News are acquired late and distorted probably in the local coffee shop, most of the time they're not relevant to you.
To you, the big wide world beyond your immediate abode is just one big source of wonder which you're usually too tired to think about anyway.

Therefore, even though you have to work damn' hard physically, just to survive, the rest of your existence takes place in a relatively stable and close environment where you're on first name terms with virtually everyone in the community, where everybody celebrates together every time there's a marriage, a christening, a death.
Where local scandal and corruption is swept under the carpet for the sake of community pride, ignorance is bliss. You avoid dwelling on the evils of the world that you are aware of, because your own life is so tough and short in the first place and so it's actually more fun to dwell on happy news and experiences rather than the sadness of evil. You are also probably a devout church goer (as opposed to an empowered Christian)and that takes care of your spiritual needs, as your faith is blind and totally dependent on the local priest or minister whom you trust implicitly!

D'you agree with me so far in the main part?

Ok, well now just reverse everything I mentioned - ya get the picture?

We are now anonymous creatures living in concrete jungles, nothing is stable, not your job, not your marriage, not your future, nothing.
We have easy and unavoidable access to masses of media, transmitting their shock factor/schlock taste news and tall tales, almost as soon as they're made. Conditioning our brains to react to them almost as the new messiah. What the media says and shows is true, Hollywood depicts reality, everybody in politics/police is corrupt, all Catholic priests are paedophiles, the world may end soon (variety of dates and prophecies/theories available), your life is not complete unless it's got something called style, unless it's complicated by selfish greed and desires, we are ruining the ecology of the planet, we are changing the climate, we are bringing about our own demise drone drone drone everything's evil and horrible etc.

It always was horrible, it's just that we werent aware of it to the same artificial extent.
So now we all readily get into the groove of funk and blow our horns in anger and despair, cynical and frightened of so many things.
Occassionally though, through the dark noise we can seemingly hear hosts of angels who are singing a happy tune. All we gotta do is concentrate and maybe we can play along with the elusive sweet tune. It's hard because hardly anyone is telling us that the tune is there, we've got to find it for ourselves.

BTW, you're probably correct about the Meditteranean climate being condusive to feelings of wellbeing and optimism, but the savage song is being played here as well, as more and more as these countries begin to embrace everything bad that was ever created or nurtured in the firstworld, with all their hearts, minds and bodies.

http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

As a short answer to the topic ... perhaps a vague idea I've been toying with of late:

Put Goodness on a graph, if you will. And include Evil as well. Now, if we watch the relationship between the two as what's on what side of the line, is Goodness a straight line with jagged spurts of evil, is the straight line Evil, with jagged spurts of Goodness?

It's an illustration I use when discussing why people only notice when they're unhappy.

As such, I would theorize that Goodness, like happiness, is the straight line, and the spikes and anomalies are, like unhappiness, Evil.

We are obsessed with Evil because it deviates from normalcy. It is something different from the universal standard.

In that sense, we can flip over to Pseudo-Dionysius (or was it Maximus Confessor ...?) who wrote that the Devil (representing evil) has no real existence, and that this lack was the manifestation of evil; therefore, what is is good, according to its standard. The evil rises from what the product lacks in relation to that standard.

We cannot see the Evil that takes place, only its physical manifestations. The violence of a bullet tearing through a child's flesh must preceded by a choice of evil, either through an act of direct will (choosing to shoot at this person), or else indirectly, through a failure to account for the possibility of evil (a stray shot that shouldn't have been taken). The result of the evil is there to see, but who can speak of the Evil itself? I recently caught an article in IONS magazine where a philosophical writer asked "what is the mass of a thought"?

Who can describe what makes that inner Evil occur? But we all can describe its tangible, outward effects.

* * * * *

Lori--

Can we agree that there is a difference between, say, the Bible and the Encyclopedia Britannica?

Is there a difference in the intellectual process that leads you to claim that God is Love, as compared to the intellectual process of, say, determining the mass or composition of a star?

If you dislike the perception that Christians take everything on faith, then please, please, please include, as part of your logic something that isn't entirely subject to faith. I know you believe the Bible is fact, and therefore your observations of it are not faith, but assertions of fact, but quite frankly that's the whole problem with people of faith.

Start with something that is accessible to more than just faithful Christians; after all, what's the point of converting the saved? But when you engage those of diverse ideas, remember that you need to speak their language every once in a while.

Everything can, most certainly, begin and end with God, but that tells us nothing of God's will until we discern a little more of God's nature. I mean, my mother told me "It was a better thing" when my Grandmother died ... that "her suffering was ended and she was with God, now."

I agree, in many cases. But we rarely seem to apply that idea to larger tragedies. I'm sorry to ask, but is it possible that the perceived "Evil" of any number of high-school shooting tragedies in the last year might actually have occurred in accord with God's will? Yes, WE find the product evil. But how does God see it?

In other words, you may believe in God and that might actually be a fact. But is your interpretation of God anything more than faith?

If you resent this perceived limiting of your intellect, then demonstrate what exists beyond this mode of faith recital.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Hi Tablariddim,

I like to read you posts. They gives to me desired so much the different outlook for the world.

I agree with your presentation of possible man’s situation and awareness in the past and at present in almost 100%. Not full 100%, because I think that the man who lived 100-200 hundred years ago, had much bigger awareness of his live, than we can suspect.
Let me explain my theory.

The man in those times has a very simple overview of the world, he didn’t know any details about other cultures or religious. He wasn’t educated and wasn’t able to read even one book. Almost everything, what he had to learn in his adult live, was learned by personal experience. It is long way to learn anything, but everything what he realised was discovered only by himself. I repeat: his world was very simple, coupled from very few truth, but these truths were very stabile basis and they were coherent each other. In other words: his world was complete, so I thing he mostly had a satisfaction from his live.
At present, we have to acquire so huge quantities of information, that it is impossible to discover them by ourselves. We can get every desired information in ready to use shape : described, analysed, together conclusions. We can simply memorise them, or don’t forget where is right book or where is library located or finally remember how to use the internet. Unhappily, people have lost somewhere on their way, the know-how of personally discovered truths. We are waiting for someone who will give us the answers for all our questions together with basic ones like: What is the sense our of live? Is there a God or not? What I’m doing here? Can I sing loudly to myself where and when I like to do it?

I think, we lost something important on our way.

But it wasn’t my intention to start with a new topic. I’d like to come back to that “dark music”.
Maybe you are right that it’s normal, that it’s integral part of ourselves, (truestory is excluded) but awareness of it’s existence ruffles my peace. Do we have to accept that state – and forget about whole matter, or treats it on other way?
For me acceptation of that state is unacceptable. When I enjoys the evil and coincidentally don’t want to enjoy it, I get the message that there is something wrong in my mental structure. I feel uncomfortable with it.
I remember when I was a Christian ( Yes, I really was) :eek: I was trying to fill Jesus love, to love other people – simply say I was trying to be a good man at the Bible order ( I almost managed to be successful with it -in my mind). And finally I discovered that that “love” was only the cover needed hide my true relation to other people – contempt.
So basic on my experience, I know that minor signs on the mind surface can point something worse – deep in subconscious. By me the only way to change the state is to see my real motives in full light. I’m working on it.
As a contrary situation please remember how do you feel when you are playing with your children, singing with friends after some long drinks, swimming on clean warm lake (far away from the bank) or listening to your favourite music (sex is obviously the same situation) - Live is beautiful. We don’t need to hard work on love, the love comes to us in naturally way. We feel our strong connection with this world at these moments. It’s a pity that it is impossible to prolong these moment for the rest of our live. But thanks to these moments we know that our live can looks different. When I aware my approach to what I do when I’m so happy, I realise that there is no any other thinks or fillings – I’m one, together with my activity.
Maybe for you this is too far jumping conclusion (it’s late – I have no time explain it in details) , but in my opinion when we manage to reach consistence between our conscious and subconscious, then we reach the state with no barrel to enjoy with our live in every time.
First, what we have to do is to recognise our true motives of our activity – see that “string” in full light.

http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/ivan.gif

The Ravens Are Not What They Seem


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Well Ok Tiassa, I'll give it my best shot, but honestly, I don't see you guys offerring up much of an expanation yourselves. These are the kinds of questions that I've spent years and years pondering, and yes I'm sorry that isn't acceptable to you, but my conclusions led me straight to God and to His Son. I mean come on, we've been round and round out here about absolutes vs everything's relative. I'm glad someone mentioned "the line". I see that line for the first time in my life. Yeah, it's off in the distance sometimes, or a little fuzzy, but at least I'm EVEN AWARE of the fact that such a line exists and where to look for it. It's the path that Jesus Christ walks, and the one that you try to walk with Him if you so choose to. It's the ideal that I'm always blabbing about. That's the line. Do I cross it? Everyday, as far as I can tell, to some degree or another. That's what sin is. That's what causes all of the pain and violence and sufferring in this world. It all has to do with one's intentions. If you allow yourself to be driven by anger, hatred, jealousy, greed, lust, sloth, selfishness, then you get more pain and sufferring. If you choose to be driven by love, compassion, empathy, trust, selflessness, then you get paradise. Gee, does that remind you of anything? Why is it difficult for us to resist giving in to our emotions and weaknesses and pain? That's why I mentioned genetics. We are all obviously tempted by sin. Incredibly tempted. I think that the fall of man was a genetic alteration. One that allowed us to be tempted by Satan. Isn't that the most logical answer based upon what we know about genetics today? I'm sorry, you guys are going to hate this, but it's as simple as a little angel on one shoulder and a little devil on the other. And Jesus Christ is staring you straight in the eyes. Christianity doesn't have to be irreconcilable Tiassa. In fact, it's the only thing that makes any sense.

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Lori--

I will avoid certain commentary but not this less-than-subtle mention.

But that's most definitely beside the point.

I wanted to mention a little tidbit I picked up recently about Bogomil Heretical Christianity. Circa 10th century Byzantium, the Bogomils had a number of theories about the Devil, but they were unusual compared to how we tend to think of it. The Devil was everything from God's other son (both older and younger, depending on when in the Bogomil evolution you encounter the idea) to God's younger brother. But the essential story says: there is God, and then there is the universe we know, and in this universe, God's sons rule. The Devil built the world but could not breathe life into Man. Here, the story fragments again. One thread says the Devil wandered the Earth, eating what would become the unclean animals, and then vomited the mass into the clay Man. Another says that when the Devil blew breath into Man, it trickled out his right foot; so the Devil blew again, and the trickle this time became the Serpent; so the Devil asked God for help, and God--seeking to reinforce the ranks of angels lost to The Fall--agrees, and hence the Great Struggle.

Hey, genetics is more believable, no matter how ya cut it. But the Bogomil script would be a hell of a movie, eh? :)

--Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Ivan,

I believe it comes from the heart and Jesus confirmed this.

"A good person out of the store of goodness in his heart produces good, but an evil person out of a store of evil produces evil; for from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

It sounds like there is at least one person here who has a store of goodness in their heart.

Lori,

<HR>

<BLOCKQUOTE>
Why is it difficult for us to resist giving in to our emotions and weaknesses and pain? That's why I mentioned genetics. We are all obviously tempted by sin. Incredibly tempted. I think that the fall of man was a genetic alteration. One that allowed us to be tempted by Satan.
</BLOCKQUOTE>

<HR>

Now I see your point: The Nature removes from itself the species, which are genetically unaccepted, so the end of our world will come soon. – Interesting! :eek:
But what our physical body has to do with our conscious? Did I lose something with new achievements of genetics?
Tell me when the fall of a man was happened. Was it in case of Kain and Abel birth or recently? I can’t catch the relation between human’s history and your idea.
Where has our free will got to?
I’m interested in your answers.

<HR>

I think, I have found very interesting example for the nature of sin. The nature of sin could be similar to the nature of fear. We don’t know what is fear, but we are frightened. However matter with fear is simpler then with sin. We are frightened by something what is not recognized by us. Do you remember you first visit in a “fear cabinet” in lunapark (I don’t know how to call it in English exactly, but I’m sure you get it). Yes. We were frightened a lot. Now, let imagine that (first one) visit, but in case where every light in that “cabinet” is turned on. Did such “cabinet” be frightened? I don’t think so. This is nature of a fear – we are frightened by something until we recognize it, then the fear disappear and never come back.
Do a sin have similar nature to a fear? I think it’s possible.
How do you think – Is it possible to become free of sin if we recognize its nature?

<HR>
Christian,

I know that excerpt, I thought about it a lot, many years ago. And I want to ask you.
How do you think: do the contens of people’s hearts is stabile (stored goodness for example) or can be exchanged into evil in a moment?
I’m asking, because I know many examples of people which are normally very good person, full of kindness and love to others, but when they are in extremely hard situation, they seem to me a devil. Is it means, that in situations when we are fighting for our existence, our heart has nothing to say?
Let take into consideration,that that excerpt suggest that there in no any exception.

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I have just realized the another fact of sin and fear nature.
Please note, that they are "working" together very often. When we stop to afraid something, <FONT COLOR="green">we lose our interesting in doing wrong things.
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Originally posted by Ivan Kruk:
I have just realized the another fact of sin and fear nature.
Please note, that they are "working" together very often. When we stop to afraid something, <FONT COLOR="green">we lose our interesting in doing wrong things.
</FONT


Dear Ivan,
or vice versa.
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Tablariddim,

As I understand, you suggest, that I showed off my artless.
I don’t think it’s artless.
Let take an example – very close to where you live. I want to talk about “vendetta”. How do you think, what motives guide a man who have to kill another man, who have killed someone from family of the first one? Is it really conviction of his right or deep connection with tradition or something quite different: the fear of exclusion from his society?
Another example – less drastic. I’m. sure that almost every man has met during his live with the situation, where another guy claimed: If you don’t do it you are not a he-man. What happened then - we had to overcome our fear and did it – or in other words the fear of the lose of our manhood was stronger.
If you watch your live, you can find a lot of similar choices related to a fear. Some of them give us advantages – we growing up (mentally or physically). But most of them (mostly during adult live) case acts which are not so good.

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Ivan,

I think that people have varying degrees of goodness stored in their hearts.

I think that there has only been one purely good person that ever lived and He was God. None of the rest of us are perfectly good. I think the more that people keep Jesus Christ in their hearts the more goodness their hearts are filled with.

Like you I have also seen people who are mostly good who turn bad when things get really hard. I have also seen situations where I would have expected someone to react in a certain way (badly) like most people do and then they do something surprisingly good and loving instead.

I think our heart always has something to say. Whether it says something good or something evil depends on the amount of each stored in our hearts.

I think the more we allow Jesus Christ into our hearts the less room there is for evil.

Christian,

Just for you consideration: Put together the excerpt which you posted with another one: Mt 6 24-28 (about two guys who built their houses first on stone, the second on sand) and add you awareness of variability of people behavior.

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Dear Ivan,
I don't understand what you mean by artless and I wasn't implying anything either. What I meant was that if you can stop doing your evil, you can lose your fear as opposed to the way you put it.

What is vendetta? it is revenge based on pride. What is there to be afraid of in a vendetta? death, injury or incarceration.
Do vendettas cease on their own? no, they are self perpetuating.
Now if you were to say, 'I am not afraid of the vendetta against me and my family' or 'I am not afraid to wage a vendetta against another family' how does that get rid of the evil?
If on the other hand you are afraid of the consequences of vendetta and you decide you want no part of it, ie you give up the evil first.
Then there would be nothing to fear! http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif


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[This message has been edited by tablariddim (edited January 28, 2000).]

Tablaraddin,

Sorry for misunderstanding from my side. I'm not so good with catching nuances. Now I got your point.
But I have an impression, that such relation works only in one direction. A sin is a result of a fear, not vice versa
Thanks for "vendetta" explanation - I see that it was bad example.


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Yes Ivan. The excertp you pointed to talks about hearing Jesus and doing. The more we fill our hearts with Jesus the more we will hear His goodness and do good.

The less we have our hearts filled with Jesus the less we will hear him and the easier it will be for us to collapse in hard times.

Thanks.

Christian,



Originally posted by Ivan Kruk:
Christian,

Just for you consideration: Put together the excerpt which you posted with another one: Mt 6 24-28 (about two guys who built their houses first on stone, the second on sand) and add you awareness of variability of people behavior.



Maybe I was wrong with reference number. Mt 6 24-28 means (in my bible) last part of the sermon on the mountain, related to in Mathew's gospel. Pls check it again.

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Christian,

O.K., now I thing that you found the right excerpt. My previous post came from conclusion that it’s impossible to interpret that excerpt (one of the most famous in the gospel) in such cursorily way. To avoid future misunderstandings I attach below little bigger excerpt from the sermon on the mountain (I have found it in internet) – Matthew 7 16-27. The excerpt is bigger, because now, you don’t have to put together two different pieces of gospel – now everything is in one piece:

<FONT COLOR="navy">
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. </FONT>

It’s great, isn’t it?
Both you and I believe that Jesus gave us the word of truth ( a main different between us is that you believe in only one such person and I believe that the number of such person is little bid bigger) and both we know that Jesus said something like that (I cannot find right excerpt): “let your talk be: yes – yes, not –not, what else – it comes from evil”. So now, tell me where you found in Jesus speech any reference to intermediate states of man’s soul? I can’t find any.
If you fulfill His words, you are “good tree bringeth forth good fruit” in every situation nevertheless any circumstances - even that worst. In other words – you be able to remain pure after strongest storms. If you not such person, that means that your house stays on sand. I don’t know any person, who’s house stays on a rock – I’m not such person also.
Do you remember: <FONT COLOR="navy">
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and <BIG>
few</BIG> there be that find it. </FONT>
My conclusion is: Jesus said to us true words about much more better world, than we can imagine, world in which unconditional love to others is spontaneously – we don’t have to fight for such love, because “fight” is unknown in that world.
Simply say: People often create various mirages to fill better and to recognize themselves better, but they are not enough braved to became better.
I don’t want to say what is my idea how find a rock for my house. You know, everything can be found in Bible, for example this:

<FONT COLOR="navy">
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
</FONT>

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