The more I think of it, the more I begin to wonder if the meek & listless Eastern Philosphies and religions will survive the onslaught of the loud and aggressive philosophies and religions, in which expansion is a key requirement. One key difference is that the religions do not call for propagation and the followers are too self-contented.

Atleast 15 Hindu men were killed over a period of a few months, in the city of Hyderabad by a group of 4 muslim youth. The reason?- religious hate. The modus operandi?- select an innocent guy waiting for a bus, offer him a lift in their car, and slit his throat on way. The gang was nabbed 4 days back. What surprises is that this is not even national news in the country! Not even a whimper. Imagine the same thing if it were the other way round- it would have created an international outcry!- The meek Hindu?

Way back in 1947- India is divided into India and Pakistan on a 'Religious' basis. Pakistan is an Islamic country and India, in all its greatness(!) chooses to be secular- and now, some of the islamic parts want to break off. Tolerance, the mantra!

Further way back- the country is ripped by invaders of all kinds; and the countrymen recite from the Karma siddhanta- the unfair aggressor would face the consequence by his own karma. So today thousands of temples lie under the basements of the religious places of other faiths. And a Hindu country never invaded any other, despite the scientific advancements they had in the old times.

The Bamiyan Buddhas, among the oldest and largest idols in the world, are pounded and pulverized in Afghanisthan, and here we chant "Budham saranam gachami"!

There is often a talk of adaptability of the religion; and an argument that since it has survived so far, it will never die. But won't it?

I think it will survive. It is content to be what it is. Its popularity willl shrink or increase over time. I do not think It would be lost. I do not think that all hindus would abandon there ways. Hide them mabye but abandon them...never. The religion it self might die out. As long as there are humans who seek truth its spirit will live on.

the mogul and english incursions that brought their respective religions are long gone. forcible conversions are a thing of the past. i imagine the 2 proselytizing religions are actively seeking converts but i would imagine the numbers to be negligible. i'll dig up some links on the web

this (http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/readersvoice/gocib.html) is a nationalistic/sky is falling type article that pretty much raises the same concers as you do ulti

The clash of civilizations will continue, indeed, will become more pronounced, unless Christianity and Islam give up their institutionalized religious bigotry and world-conquering ambitions. This is very unlikely as bigotry and imperialism are inherent within their belief systems. These systems have to be reformed but cannot be reformed because they are said to be the work of divine revelation. As the systems cannot be changed the adherents of the systems have to be weaned away from them. This has happened in Europe and to a lesser extent in America where Christianity has been abandoned for humanism and Vedantic spirituality. But this has not yet happened in the Islamic and Marxist worlds of Asia. (Swami Devananda Saraswati )

Hinduism is an adaptive religion which survived over centuries despite of onslaughts from all directions. Hindus see Muslims and Christians as followers of GOD called by different names. There is no restrictions on GOD that he should assume only one identity!. Believing that god is everywhere. But hinduism got polluted by some senseless practices. But spirit of the religion lives for ever.

lol

But would it be the responsibility of the followers of a faith to protect the faith?
... or is it ok to be indifferent and content?

Originally posted by UltiTruth
But would it be the responsibility of the followers of a faith to protect the faith?
... or is it ok to be indifferent and content?

It is like, 100 million is too big to change over.

There is no religious duty to protect their faith. But there is a duty to protect the "dharma". The righteousness. In case of Hinduism there is a general, subtler belief - God comes to the resque of Good and Correct the bad - by the avatars, reincarnation etc.

For that matter almost all religions are under threat from the cultural decay fast catching up in the world.

And fanaticism in any religion is no answer for security/protection.

Originally posted by UltiTruth
But would it be the responsibility of the followers of a faith to protect the faith?
... or is it ok to be indifferent and content?

take a look at hindutva politics. pretty fundamentalist type shit

Children of the Divine Mother, Bharat Mata, it is every Indian's sworn duty to serve and protect that great land, to ensure its continued and ongoing survival and prosperity. We have been left with a great inheritance - one which our forefathers for over a thousand years, fought hard to reclaim that we may never have to suffer being bound by the chains of slavery and oppression.

Today, our dear Mother, Maa Bharat, is fighting for survival. Countless separatist strikes from all sides threaten to tear Her apart limb from limb. The vile, insidious disease of corruption, spread by self-serving politicians is spreading its venomous juices slowly through Her body. The dagger of religious fundamentalism, in the guise of the "peaceful and tolerant" faith of Islam, is pointed directly at Her throat. For countless generations, Bharat Mata has sheltered Her children, protecting them, and showering them with Her limitless love. But now, in this, Her most desperate hour, She needs us. It is our turn to show Her that we, Her children, will not desert Her when She needs us most.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unlike the Jewish holocaust, the exact toll of the Hindu genocide suggested by the name Hindu Kush is not available. However the number is easily likely to be in millions. A few known historical figures can be used to justify this estimate. Encyclopaedia Britannica informs that in December 1398 AD, Timur Lane ordered the execution of at least 50,000 captives before the battle for Delhi,...and after the battle those inhabitants (of Delhi) not killed were removed (as slaves), while other references say that the number of captives butchered by Timur Lane's army was about 100,000. Later on Encyclopaedia Britannica mentions that the (secular?) Mughal Emperor Akbar 'ordered the massacre of about 30,000 (captured) Rajput Hindus on February 24, 1568 AD, after the battle for Chitod. Another reference indicates that this massacre of 30,000 Hindu peasants at Chitod is recorded by Abul Fazl, Akbar's court historian himself. These two 'one day' massacres are sufficient to provide a reference point for estimating the scale of Hindu genocide. The Afghan historian Khondamir records that during one of the many repeated invasions on the city of Herat in Western Afghanistan, 1,500,000 residents perished.

The Moghul rule of Bharat was characterised by mass genocide, destruction and desecration - atrocity after gruesome atrocity marked this era out as the darkest period of human history, and yet, the world is blissfully unaware that such a period ever existed. The darkest age of mankind is instead disguised as an era of artistic, musical and literary excellence, in which inter-cultural interaction and racial harmony were the order of the day. Countless millions of unimaginably cruel and horrific violations of not just human rights, but humanity itself, have been completely wiped clean and forgotten. It is of paramount importance that this situation is rectified immediately.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is essential that the dormant spirit of Hindutva which lies in each and every Hindu throughout the world is aroused. Hindus, intoxicated with the short-term benefits of the Western, get-rich-quick lifestyle, need to arise from their drunken stupor and assert themselves. The lion of Hindutva must once again roar throughout the world, for "Hindu jage to vishwa jagegaa" (When the Hindu rises, then the whole world will awaken).

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9089/

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fhinduunityhinduismhottopics

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_124344,00300001.htm

A married Hindu lady, Kanchan Mishra was abducted by Muslim gangsters and politicians, raped and still being kept in their harem! Several Hindus beheaded by Muslims in Kashmir! A 14-year old Hindu girl burnt by 3 Muslims for resisting rape! Another 12-year Hindu girl was raped by at least 15 men in Bangladesh! In Bangladesh itself, several Hindu girls were abducted, converted to Islam and married off to worthless Muslims! Thousands of Bangladeshi Hindus have abandoned their lands and fled to India! Several temples have been robbed and had their idols destroyed by Muslims in India itself! 3 innocent Hindu students were killed by Muslim Police officer in Bihar! A Hindu boy was throwned out of a moving train and killed by a Muslim army man! Several Hindus have been killed by Muslim gangster group in Andhra Pradesh! And many more such incidents!

And now, 10 Hindu girls are abducted from a wedding party by Muslims and raped in a nearby madrassa!

All of this happened just in the last 2-3 months! When will we see Muslims being made to pay for these crimes? Will our wish ever be fulfilled? Can anyone fulfill this wish of millions and millions of Hindus? Can anyone give us a reason to be proud to be born Hindu? Are there a lack of Muslims in India? Anyone will do! Even Muslim beggars! Can't we even do this and engrave with a knife on their backs that we did it to avenge the rape opf our sisters. We can't have a better place to put up such a message than on the backs of dead Muslims!

I'm tired and fed up that Hindus are always on the receiving end! We urgently need something to make us believe in our cause again! Anything will do. It's been bad news all the way for us during the last 3 months. ! We need armed militants, not politicians! We need warriors, not scientists!

More Hindus will be ready to give money and recommend friends to contribute if this money is to be used to protect Hindus. But few are thrilled with the idea of giving money for educating Hindus because they know it's not going to matter. Hindus need security and dignity, not academic qualifications! Can their qualifications prevent them from being killed or their sisters and mothers from being raped? Why waste more money educating Hindu boys & girls when we can't even protect them when they are grown up?

It's no longer a question of poverty. Any Hindu is at risk! Let's use our money to train Hindus to become warriors! They'll earn more respect from Hindus all over the world than they ever will by becoming politicians or scientists. Hindus are in desperate need of true-life heros. Aren't there any Hindu gangsters in India who can be paid to get these jobs done? We have have worked quite hard the last few months but nothing has been achieved!

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fhinduunityhinduismhottopics.showMessage?topicID=1 2698.topic

;)

Originally posted by everneo
It is like, 100 million is too big to change over.



It is a typographical error. It is 1000 million.

If we start quoting fanatical shits from sites, i think no religion / isms will look better.!..

Bye.


:)

Originally posted by spookz
take a look at hindutva politics. pretty fundamentalist type shit
Politics is another big story, but I am talking about the day to day life. The incident I mentioned above happened within a 2-km radius of where I live, and I could easily have been the one waiting for the bus!!! :eek:
And the reality is that different rules apply for the two faiths. If a car rams into you standing on road, and you find that the driver is from one faith, it is better to shut up, lest you be beaten and sliced, even if the driver is hardly 13 years of age. This is experience!
I too really wish that I could look at it as a lot of exaggeration as you can look at it!
And let me add that I am not a fanatic or anything- I visit and pray at churches and mosques too!

obviously i cannot comment on day to day life. i still prefer to look at the "big picture" ulti, if i implied that you were fanatical or prone to exaggeration, i apologise. this is the first time i am consciously taking a look at this issue so there is no way that i am aware of all the facts. a question. wasnt the bjp platform pretty much based on hindu nationalism?

No doubt about that! But did you realize that the voting of muslims has ALWAYS been based on religion, regardless of the candidate? Or that if the Hindu vote was really united in the height of passions, then no other party would have had any seats- which never happened. Or that the so called Hindu parties are staunchly opposed by the majority of other parties on religious issues, though they apparently would contain a majority of Hindus too? Did you look at the levels of minority-appeasement that happens?
And could the BJP take one single step on the passionate Babri masjid issue, in spite of all the promises? All this shows the level of moderation a regular Hindu has. And I believe, a majority wouldn't favour raking up the mandir-masjid issue once again.
Did you know that policemen who went for curtailing illegal power connections from the electricity poles were beaten blue and black in muslim dominated areas? Or that the majority of all criminals are from a single minority? And the first incident you mentioned about a married woman being held captive is a published story, though I haven't read about most others.
Tolerance and respect for religions is always great, but it cannot be one-sided every time. If almost every temple of the name that remains has a mosque on what once was its 'garbha-gudi', and the deity has shifted to accommodate the green structure, can heart-burn be avoided?

After successfully fighting the battle of trademark traditional produce like neem, karela, turmeric and basmati, India may have to fight for a bid being made to patent its spiritual tradition in the USA - meditation techniques practised in India since ages. It has been reported in August that applications have been filed in the United States to patent meditation methods like Kundalini and Nadabrakhma which have been practised by our sages and yogis over generations. ``Flawless, exceedingly sweet and beautiful, soul enchanting, uninterrupted flow of words manifests itself on all sides in them (devotees blessed with genius) who keep you. O Shakti (energy) of Shiva (universal consciousness), the destroyer of Kamadeva (Cupid), constantly in their mind,'' says Panchastavi, a highly esoteric work on Kundalini (3.12).

http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/20001227/fed27058.html

hmm! time to get proactive i guess!

Originally posted by UltiTruth
The more I think of it, the more I begin to wonder if the meek & listless Eastern Philosphies and religions will survive the onslaught of the loud and aggressive philosophies and religions, in which expansion is a key requirement. One key difference is that the religions do not call for propagation and the followers are too self-contented.

Atleast 15 Hindu men were killed over a period of a few months, in the city of Hyderabad by a group of 4 muslim youth. The reason?- religious hate. The modus operandi?- select an innocent guy waiting for a bus, offer him a lift in their car, and slit his throat on way. The gang was nabbed 4 days back. What surprises is that this is not even national news in the country! Not even a whimper. Imagine the same thing if it were the other way round- it would have created an international outcry!- The meek Hindu?

Way back in 1947- India is divided into India and Pakistan on a 'Religious' basis. Pakistan is an Islamic country and India, in all its greatness(!) chooses to be secular- and now, some of the islamic parts want to break off. Tolerance, the mantra!

Further way back- the country is ripped by invaders of all kinds; and the countrymen recite from the Karma siddhanta- the unfair aggressor would face the consequence by his own karma. So today thousands of temples lie under the basements of the religious places of other faiths. And a Hindu country never invaded any other, despite the scientific advancements they had in the old times.

The Bamiyan Buddhas, among the oldest and largest idols in the world, are pounded and pulverized in Afghanisthan, and here we chant "Budham saranam gachami"!

There is often a talk of adaptability of the religion; and an argument that since it has survived so far, it will never die. But won't it?

This is not about religion in the real sense, but a display of ignorance. By ignorance i mean bodily designation.

"Untill the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and utterly destroyed, everywhere will be war."

Bob Marley, from a speech given by Emporor Selasie 1st.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
This is not about religion in the real sense, but a display of ignorance. By ignorance i mean bodily designation.

Mind elaborating what you mean by this?

The core of the unreached people of our world live in a rectangular-shaped window! Often called "The Resistant Belt," the window extends from West Africa to East Asia, from ten degrees north to forty degrees north of the equator. If we are serious about providing a valid opportunity for every person to experience the truth and saving power of Jesus Christ, we cannot ignore the compelling reality of The 10/40 Window regions and its billions of impoverished souls.

The 10/40 Window confronts us with seven important realities: first, the historical and biblical significance; second, the least evangelized countries; third, the dominance of the three religious blocks; fourth, the preponderance of the poor; fifth, the unreached ethnolinguistic people groups; sixth, the least evangelized megacities; and seventh, the strongholds of Satan within the The 10/40 Window.

Historical Significance

Why do committed Christians need to focus on The 10/40 Window? First, because of the historical and biblical significance of this part of the world. Indeed the Bible begins with the account of Adam and Eve placed by God in the heart of what is now The 10/40 Window. God's plan expressed in Genesis 1:26 was that mankind would have dominion over the earth, subduing it fully. However, Adam and Eve sinned against God and forfeited their right to rule. Later, in man’s sinful rebellion, came the futile attempt to establish new dominion in the building of the great Tower of Babel. That effort, which also occurred in the center of The 10/40 Window, was an open defiance against God. Once again, as God had done in the flood, He reached forth His hand in judgment. The result was the introduction of different languages, the scattering of the earth’s people, and the formation of nations.

Ancient history was worked out in the territory marked by The 10/40 Window from the cradle of civilization in Mesopotamia across the Fertile Crescent to Egypt. Ancient empires came and went. The fate of God's people Israel rose and fell depending on their obedience to the covenant with their God. It was here that Christ was born, lived a perfect life, died sacrificially on the cross, and rose triumphantly over death. The church age was ushered in, and it was not until the second missionary journey of the apostle Paul toward the end of the biblical record that events of biblical history occurred outside of the territory identified as The 10/40 Window. Without question, this is an area of great historical and biblical importance.

Unevangelized Peoples

The second reason why committed Christians should focus on the 10/40 Window is because it is home to the majority of unevangelized people. The "unevangelized" are people who have minimal to no knowledge of the gospel and have had no valid opportunity to respond to it.

While it only constitutes one-third of the earth’s total land area, nearly two-thirds of the people in the world reside in The 10/40 Window. More astonishing is the fact that 97 percent of all the world’s unevangelized peoples live in The 10/40 Window. This leaves no doubt that the challenge of reaching the unreached must center on the core - The 10/40 Window.

If we take seriously the mandate to preach the gospel to every person, to make disciples of all peoples, and to be Christ’s witnesses to the ends of the earth, we must recognize the priority of concentrating our efforts on The 10/40 Window. No other area is so blatantly in need of the truth that salvation is only in Jesus Christ.

The Heart of Religions

A third reason we must focus on The 10/40 Window is that it is the heart of three of our worlds major religious blocks. The majority of those enslaved by Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism live within The 10/40 Window. The Muslim world, of over 700 million people, stretches in a wide band across the north of Africa to the middle east and even has some significant presence all throughout Asia. The middle of The 10/40 Window is overshadowed by the subcontinent of India and its over 700 million adherents to Hinduism. In Asia Buddhism dominates the lives of the people.

From its center in The 10/40 Window, Islam is reaching out energetically to all parts of the globe; in a similar strategy, we must penetrate the heart of Islam with the liberating truth of the gospel. We must do all in our power to show Muslims that the highest prophet described in the Koran is not Mohammed, but Jesus. And that He is not only the greatest prophet, but the Son of God Himself who died and was resurrected in order that millions of Muslims might be saved.

Overwhelmed by poverty and ravaged by disease, India is victimized more severely by the spiritual blindness of Hinduism. To a nation in which fatted cows roam freely among emaciated humans, we must proclaim the truth that Jesus came to give us life and give it abundantly.

With all of Southeast Asia, most of China and the Far East falling into the category of Buddhist, it is easy to see that this is the largest, most identifiable group in The 10/40 Window. The Buddhist world comprises more than 1 billion people who are in desperate need of Jesus Christ..

The World's Poor

The fourth reason to focus our attention on The 10/40 Window is that the poor are there. In fact, more than eight out of ten of the poorest of the poor--who on the average have a gross national product of under $500 per person per year live in The 10/40 Window. Although 2.4 billion of these people live within The 10/40 Window, only 8% of all missionaries work among them.

In the book Target Earth, Bryant L. Myers of World Vision and MARC wrote and article titled "Where Are the Poor and Lost?" Myers suggested that "the poor are lost, and the lost are poor." He arrived at this conclusion after observing that the majority of the unreached live in the poorest countries of the world.

When Christians gathered from 170 countries at Lausanne II in Manila in 1989, great concern was expressed for the materially poor of the world. In the second section of the Manila Manifesto, that concern was recorded with the following declaration: "We have again been confronted with Luke's emphasis that the Gospel is the Good News for the poor (Luke 4:18, 6:20, 7:22) and have asked ourselves what this means to the majority of the world's population who are destitute, suffering and oppressed. We have been reminded that the law, the prophets, and the wisdom books and the teaching and ministry of Jesus, all stress God's concern for the materially poor and our consequent duty to defend and care for them."

Committed Christians cannot ignore the reality that there is a remarkable overlap between the poorest countries of the world and the least evangelized countries of the world. In fact, 79 percent of the people who are poorest are also in the least evangelized countries of the world.

Megapeoples

The fifth reason we must address our concerns on The 10/40 Window is because it contains the largest spiritually bankrupt ethnolinguistic megapeoples (over one million). Over 90% of these people groups live in The 10/40 Window. To reach these people for Christ is often an infinitely more difficult task than that of smaller tribal groups. Some of these megagroups without Christ number in the tens of millions and comprise a foreboding, yet God-sized challenge to the Church.

Megacities

The sixth reason we must focus on The 10/40 Window is that it contains the overwhelming majority of the world’s least evangelized megacities—that is, those with a population of more than one million. Of the top 50 cities on this list, all 50 are in The 10/40 Window! This fact alone underscores the need for prioritizing our efforts to reach these great metroplexes with Christ’s love and truth.

Stronghold of Satan

Why do committed Christians need to focus on The 10/40 Window? Because it includes numerous strong-holds of Satan. The billions of people living in The 10/40 Window have suffered not only the ravages of poverty and disease, they have also been kept from the transforming power of the gospel. They are poignant examples of the truth expressed in 2 Corinthians 4:4, which states, "the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

We must not view this situation with a fatalistic attitude, for we have been granted power to intervene. In the same letter, the Apostle Paul declares, "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds" (2 Corinthians 10:3-4). Although Satan has established a territorial stronghold in The 10/40 Window, we must not concede one parcel of land nor one person. The gospel must advance!

In the fascinating passage of Daniel 10, we see the reality of territorial spiritual warfare unveiled. The angel who visited Daniel announced that he would have to return to battle the Prince of Persia. Apparently that battle and others like it still rage. Persia of old is Iran of today, and sits in the center of The 10/40 Window, still a stronghold of Satan.

It is evident that the forces of Satan have great power and will resist all attempts to be overcome. If we are to storm the enemy’s territory, we must put on the full armor of God and fight with the weapons of spiritual warfare described in Ephesians 6. To depend on anything else is utter foolishness.

All of this demands that we reevaluate our priorities. We must find the most innovative ways to reach the billions of people within The 10/40 Window with the love and truth of Jesus Christ. We must mobilize for a massive prayer focus on The 10/40 window with the body of Christ worldwide.

If we are to be faithful to Scripture, obedient to the mandate of Christ, unwavering in our commitment to plant churches within every people group by the year 2000, then we must get down to the core of the unreached—The 10/40 Window.

May God grant each of us boldness and wisdom and energy to do our part in taking on this great and eternally significant challenge! (Luis Bush)

In short, Buddhism is all but dead. In its huge organism the faint pulsations of life are still discernible, but its power of activity is gone. The spread of European civilization over the East will inevitably bring about its extinction. - Catholic Encyclopedia

Originally posted by UltiTruth
Mind elaborating what you mean by this?

In all bona-fide religous scriptures, the point comes to surrendering to God, this is the point of religion. As there are different types of mentalities within people, there are different ways one can come to the point of surrender to God, but essentially it is the same thing, hence different religions.
In all bona-fide religions there are rules and regulations one should adhere to if liberation is to be acheived, failure to do this means we must remain on the material platform as opposed to going back home to God. In the bible it says "the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life."
When act outside of the rules and regulations, we become responsible for our own well-being and thus have to struggle to attain temporary happiness. In our attempts at happiness, we at some point transgress the laws of nature, when we get bodily satisfaction we want more, we get more and we want more, we become lustfull, forget God, and lose sight of what the aim of life is.
This is ignorance.

When people murder there has to be some justification for it, sometimes its for revenge, passion, hatred on account that one is black, white, a woman, a man, through greed, envy, a jew, a hindu, a muslim, an american, a manchester united fan.......so many things.
I used to go into yahoo chatrooms, and the discourse between hindus and muslims at times were absolutely disgusting, althought they were hindus and muslims, they never discussed religion, they simply hurled insults at each other.
So how can you say it is because of religion, actual religion does not distinguish between hindus, muslims, christians or jews.

Love

Jan Ardena.

That was precisely my point. I respect all the religions and make an effort to understand them, but the hate that emanates from some of the followers of some faiths is too hard to bear!
I still am not clear if you are calling my post as "being out of ignorance"?! :rolleyes:

what jan says is pretty cool. what actually happens is not that cool. no doubt hurling slurs at each other is unproductive but i believe that if problems exists, people should be made aware of that. so back to the topic will hinduism survive? lets take a look at the destruction of temples by the moslem invaders.
the relevance here is that, hindus are trying to turn the mosques back in to temples. hence the strife.

SUMMING UP

Starting with Al-Bilădhurî who wrote in Arabic in the second half of the ninth century, and coming down to Syed Mahmudul Hasan who wrote in English in the fourth decade of the twentieth, we have cited from eighty histories spanning a period of more than twelve hundred years. Our citations mention sixty-one kings, sixty-three military commanders and fourteen sufis who destroyed Hindu temples in one hundred and fifty-four localities, big and small, spread from Khurasan in the West to Tripura in the East, and from Transoxiana in the North to Tamil Nadu in the South, over a period of eleven hundred years. In most cases the destruction of temples was followed by erection of mosques, madrasas and khănqăhs, etc., on the temple sites and, frequently, with temple materials. Allăh was thanked every time for enabling the iconoclast concerned to render service to the religion of Muhammad by means of this pious performance.

HINDU TEMPLES (http://www.bharatvani.org/books/htemples2/)

Originally posted by UltiTruth
I still am not clear if you are calling my post as "being out of ignorance"?! :rolleyes:

Of course not, i regard it as your point of veiw just as my reply was mine.
Ignorance means not knowing or being aware of ones real position as a soul and taking the phenomenal, temporal body to be the self.

Srimad Bhagavad Gita;

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param

Chapter 2, Verse 12.
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati

Chapter 2, Verse 13.
As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.

Study the BG, you will understand. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

Fortunately, I have the opportunity of reading the Bhagavad Gita in its original language, listen to it in the native tone, and can also recite a verse or two. (And incidentally, I started a Gita thread on this board! :) )

But since you have internalized the Gita and know you are indestructible, would you watch in peace if somebody attacks your house, beats you up and ransacks all the furniture?

Reality check, Jan!

Originally posted by UltiTruth
Fortunately, I have the opportunity of reading the Bhagavad Gita in its original language, listen to it in the native tone, and can also recite a verse or two. (And incidentally, I started a Gita thread on this board! :) )

But since you have internalized the Gita and know you are indestructible, would you watch in peace if somebody attacks your house, beats you up and ransacks all the furniture?

Reality check, Jan!

I too am fortunate enought to read BG in its original language and listen to it in native tone, and can recite a verse or two, so we have something in common.

What is the point of your question?
Could you please put me in the picture?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Lord Krishna gave permission to protect yourself only against agression and at the same time tried maximum to avoid bloodshed.

He also told He resides in every living/non-living being.



:)

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
What is the point of your question?
Could you please put me in the picture?

The whole point of this question (and the thread) is whether softer religions and their followers should take any proactive/aggressive steps to protect their faith and themselves against aggressions by the more vociferous/monotheistic ones.
Of course, resistance could be in a large number of ways.

Should these eastern religions practice traditions and culture in isolation...

Yes they should be more aggressive; however, wouldn't it be better to convert than murder...if murder is the only answer and the excuse just happens to be that he/she does not believe in there "Deity"...isolation...meditation; however, who really wants to be a monk all the time; probably just the monks? right...not that there anything wrong with that...priest, monk, guru...whatever you might call it...

ulti
did you notice how i morphed into a right wing hindu fundamentalist? lot of fun to be had!! check out the jesus in india thread!

:D

Originally posted by UltiTruth
The whole point of this question (and the thread) is whether softer religions and their followers should take any proactive/aggressive steps to protect their faith and themselves against aggressions by the more vociferous/monotheistic ones.
Of course, resistance could be in a large number of ways.

It depends on what you think "religion" is, my understanding of religion has very little to do with mundane physical life, but because we are superficially physical beings we interpret religion according to our understanding.
Religion is a set of rules and regulations designed to elavate man to the status of a fully conscious human being, i.e. to understand his true origin and the source of that origin. The scriptures, such as the bible and the Qur'an state these rules and regulations and how they should be applied at those times. The mistake the muslims and christians are making, imho, is that they are not applying themselves only to the rules and regulations in this time, as stated, but applying themselves to the methods, as prescribed in that time, now. This is why i think there is so much discontent.

Like any subject, if you do not see it (religion) through, you cannot in truth claim to be religous as set down in your scripture.

e.g. if i wanted to become a qualified doctor and therefore bona-fide, i would have to study for the required period, then take an exam, and if i passed the exam, then and only then can i be called, doctor.

Sooooo, your question is mis-directed, it should not be directed at "religion" as real religion is non-sectarian, it discriminates between different levels of consciousness as opposed to different organisations.

Reality check?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Panther
Should these eastern religions practice traditions and culture in isolation...
East is as far to the West as West is to the East!

wouldn't it be better to convert than murder...if murder is the only answer and the excuse just happens to be that he/she does not believe in there "Deity"...isolation...meditation
Hinduism neither converts not murders!

... however, who really wants to be a monk all the time; probably just the monks? right...not that there anything wrong with that...priest, monk, guru...whatever you might call it...
So you thought India had 700 million MONKS? Hindus are simple little humans, Panther! :D :D


Originally posted by spookz ulti
did you notice how i morphed into a right wing hindu fundamentalist? lot of fun to be had!! check out the jesus in india thread!
I was following the thread and also made a post, spookz! :D :D ;)
Poor Randalfo found an Indian Hindu on a conversion mission in LA, I guess! How did you enjoy being a Hindu and a rare aggressive one at that? ;)


Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Sooooo, your question is mis-directed, it should not be directed at "religion" as real religion is non- sectarian, it discriminates between different levels of consciousness as opposed to different organisations.
Reality check?
No conflict on your philosophy, Janardana, er... Jan Ardena.
Did I direct it on any religion? But you didn't answer me on my question. What would you do if somebody barges into your home? be a Gandhi or resist? And what would you expect a Hindu to do when he finds a part converted temple?- there are hundreds in India. (did you see spookz' link on temples? I have seen a few dozen temples myself!) Is or isn't faith-protection a part of one's karma- since you are just "nimiththa matra"? :)

Thanks

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UltiTruth
No conflict on your philosophy, Janardana, er... Jan Ardena.

Ah! You get it. :p
I was hoping somebody would.
What do you think?

Did I direct it on any religion?

“Atleast 15 Hindu men were killed over a period of a few months, in the city of Hyderabad by a group of 4 muslim youth. The reason?- religious hate.”

It would seem you did. :)

What would you do if somebody barges into your home? be a Gandhi or resist?

As I have no experience of this situation, it would be hard for me to say what I would do, but I am pretty sure my initial reaction would be one of fear, and anything can happen in that time-frame.
It would depend on the person, what state of mind would he/she be in, would I be able to detect any kind of rationale, would he be ranting and raving, would he be big or small, would he have a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, an HIV needle, would I be asleep, awake, on the toilet, in my studio……what? :(

You see, your question does not relate to mental speculation, for me to even begin answering your question I would have had to have had some similar experience, and even then my answer would only be speculation.

And what would you expect a Hindu to do when he finds a part converted temple?-

I wouldn't expect anything in the sense that it is outside my experience. I could say something based on government law, religious law, my law or opinion, but when emotions are so high and tempers flare into ungodly rages, when reason has left the building, my feeble, unexperienced solutions i think would only increase such anger. Also, hindus are not all the same, one may act this way and one may act another way.

Is or isn't faith-protection a part of one's karma-

What do you mean by “faith-protection”, when you have faith your consciousness is in someway protected, depending on the strength of such faith.
Are you talking about protection of physical manifestations such as body, family, society, nation and so on?
If so, these violations will always be there, in every aspect of society at virtually all times, they cannot be stopped, and they will seriously test ones faith, but I don't see how you can protect your faith by trying to stop these things.

since you are just "nimiththa matra"?

What does that mean? :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

I was talking about people who murder hindu's for religious reasons; not the opposite

I have full respect for Hindu's....and many other religions...

Very funny I kinda do see Hindu's as monks...all 700 million of them... Ha Ha...

Much Respect
Best of Life...
:p :p :p

actually dude a sizable percentage of that figure are clerks at your local 7-11/cornershop!

:D

Jan ,

You say you have read Geeta and you dont know what Nimith Matra is?...i am surprised seriously...:confused:



Btw.I didnt read the whole thread i confess.But Ulti,
we talked about the tenth Incarnation isnt it?this Tenth one is going to do just great Job i am sure.it will be one of the most powerful one i can assure you...



bye!

And remember,
MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH :D


BYE!

zion,
Guess that is right.
If religious ethnic cleansing for a thousand years could not destroy the philosophy, the spirit and not even the rituals, I guess that itself is divine!
It does pain sometimes, though! :(

Anyways :D :D

Panther:
Assuming you are an American, do you know that a third of all software engineers, a quarter of all doctors in the US, and a quarter of all NASA scientists are all Indian monks? :) (including the lady monk that died in Columbia! :( )


Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Ah! You get it.
I was hoping somebody would.

Easy one :)




Did I direct it on any religion?
“Atleast 15 Hindu men were killed over a period of a few months, in the city of Hyderabad by a group of 4 muslim youth. The reason?- religious hate.”
It would seem you did. :)

Wasn't that Religious Hate than Religion, Jan?




What would you do if somebody barges into your home? be a Gandhi or resist?
As I have no experience of this situation, it would be hard for me to say what I would do, but I am pretty sure my initial reaction would be one of fear, and anything can happen in that time-frame.
It would depend on the person, what state of mind would he/she be in, would I be able to detect any kind of rationale, would he be ranting and raving, would he be big or small, would he have a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, an HIV needle, would I be asleep, awake, on the toilet, in my studio……what?
You see, your question does not relate to mental speculation, for me to even begin answering your question I would have had to have had some similar experience, and even then my answer would only be speculation.

So you would ask the murderers for some time to ponder and then decide?- you mean think without the head upto the throat level?



And what would you expect a Hindu to do when he finds a part converted temple?-
I wouldn't expect anything in the sense that it is outside my experience. I could say something based on government law, religious law, my law or opinion, but when emotions are so high and tempers flare into ungodly rages, when reason has left the building, my feeble, unexperienced solutions i think would only increase such anger. Also, hindus are not all the same, one may act this way and one may act another way.

The question is not 'how they would', rather 'how they should'! (they never did anyway. Last month, an idol in a temple was destroyed. Did you hear that?- like you did about that dilapidated mosque being scaled a few years ago?)
So you would appoint a lawyer to study the country's laws? :p



Is or isn't faith-protection a part of one's karma-
What do you mean by “faith-protection”, when you have faith your consciousness is in someway protected, depending on the strength of such faith.
Are you talking about protection of physical manifestations such as body, family, society, nation and so on?
If so, these violations will always be there, in every aspect of society at virtually all times, they cannot be stopped, and they will seriously test ones faith, but I don't see how you can protect your faith by trying to stop these things.

The Gita says you only act, the motive being God's. So if you resist, even then you are only following the Supreme. No?

Reality Check, Jan!

UltiTruth.

Wasn't that Religious Hate than Religion, Jan?

Between hindu and muslim. ;)

So you would ask the murderers for some time to ponder and then decide?- you mean think without the head upto the throat level?

What a silly question, you never mentioned the intention of the intruder, that was the reason of all the possible scenarios, plus I mentioned nothing about dialouge.

Think without the head up to throat, what are you talking about? :confused:

The Gita says you only act, the motive being God's. So if you resist, even then you are only following the Supreme. No?

You’ve lost me here, what is this statement in relation to, and could you show me where it say we only act, and the motive is Gods, thanks.

Reality Check, Jan!

Errrrrrrrr……………..nope, this statement still means nothing to me, even the second time around, I’m afraid you’ll have to spell it out. :(

Zion, Jan ,

You say you have read Geeta and you dont know what Nimith Matra is?...i am surprised seriously...

There are a lot of things I don’t know, believe it or not sanskrit is not my first language. :p
I am interested in God, this is why I read Gita, I know some sanskrit verses by art, but I am not a sanskrit scholar. :(
But if you are prepared to inform me as to its meaning, then I will know what it means for future reference. :)


Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
[B]UltiTruth.

Wasn't that Religious Hate than Religion, Jan?

Between hindu and muslim
Correct, and not Hinduism and Islam



So you would ask the murderers for some time to ponder and then decide?- you mean think without the head upto the throat level?

What a silly question, you never mentioned the intention of the intruder, that was the reason of all the possible scenarios, plus I mentioned nothing about dialouge.

Rarely do intruders display their statement of Purpose! But anyway, would you grade the intruder based on his intention, before proceeding with a Plan of Action that fits into your overall strategy based on...?
Anyway, the intention is quoted by you elsewhere.



Think without the head up to throat, what are you talking about?
Did you follow the first part of the thread, Jan?



The Gita says you only act, the motive being God's. So if you resist, even then you are only following the Supreme. No?

...could you show me where it say we only act, and the motive is Gods, thanks.
What? Isn't this central to Gita? Jan!!!



Reality Check, Jan!
Errrrrrrrr……………..nope, this statement still means nothing to me, even the second time around, I’m afraid you’ll have to spell it out. :(
Philosophy...fine. How about reality, Jan?

Thanks

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UltiTruth
Correct, and not Hinduism and Islam

Then why mention their religions, why not say 2 people, and why was it a case of religious hatred?
Where in their religions does it instruct them to hate the opposing religions.

Rarely do intruders display their statement of Purpose!

So why did you use the term “murderer”?
Do you believe that every intruder has murder in mind?

But anyway, would you grade the intruder based on his intention,

If he was a murderer, I wouldn’t need to, would I? :rolleyes:

Anyway, the intention is quoted by you elsewhere.

No it isn’t. :rolleyes:

The Gita says you only act, the motive being God's. So if you resist, even then you are only following the Supreme. No?

...could you show me where it say we only act, and the motive is Gods, thanks.

What? Isn't this central to Gita? Jan!!!

What is “central” to the Gita is “abandon all varieties of religion and surrender unto Me” (Lord Krishna).
The point you have made refers to Gods devotees (bhaktas), it is they alone who act for the will of God thereby fulfilling His motive. The karmis, jnanis and yogis act at different levels to fulfil their own motives. If Arjuna did not surrender to Krishna, he also would have acted out of self-interest.

Philosophy...fine. How about reality, Jan?

The philosophy is there to help one know reality, and at each stage of realisation one becomes more aware, if and when one becomes aware, then one is forced to act according to ones knowledge.

Which part of what I said, was fantasy?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Then why mention their religions, why not say 2 people, and why was it a case of religious hatred?
You mean I should have said, "15 people were killed by 4 people- the reason: not known"?


Where in their religions does it instruct them to hate the opposing religions.
Are you sure no religion does that?


Anyway, the intention is quoted by you elsewhere.
No it isn’t. :rolleyes:
What about this, Jan?

“Atleast 15 Hindu men were killed over a period of a few months, in the city of Hyderabad by a group of 4 muslim youth. The reason?- religious hate.”
It would seem you did.


What is “central” to the Gita is “abandon all varieties of religion and surrender unto Me” (Lord Krishna).
Is this the only center? And my point isn't from Gita?


The point you have made refers to Gods devotees (bhaktas), it is they alone who act for the will of God thereby fulfilling His motive. The karmis, jnanis and yogis act at different levels to fulfil their own motives. If Arjuna did not surrender to Krishna, he also would have acted out of self-interest.
So can Bhaktas resist aggression? And why did Lord Krishna ask Arjuna to fight and not be tolerant?


The philosophy is there to help one know reality, and at each stage of realisation one becomes more aware, if and when one becomes aware, then one is forced to act according to ones knowledge.
So one may act? finally! :)


Which part of what I said, was fantasy?
The part that one should go philosophical and try to understand the true religion while being battered and taken advantage of!

Thanks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UltiTruth
You mean I should have said, "15 people were killed by 4 people- the reason: not known"?

Apart from reason not known, yes, the reason is due to ignorance of ones true position, therefore thinking oneself superior or inferior to another.

Are you sure no religion does that?

That is not an answer.

Is this the only center?

Yes.

And my point isn't from Gita?

Then what is it?

So can Bhaktas resist aggression?

Yes, because they see everything as the mercy of the Lord, this is obviously a very difficult position for ordinary persons, but not for bhaktas. However some bhaktas will not (kshtrya), due to their position in society, which is also bhakti if done in the service of the Lord.

And why did Lord Krishna ask Arjuna to fight and not be tolerant?

Because Arjuna was kashatrya, and by destroying the demonic kuru dynasty he would rid the earth of the overwhelming demonic population, allowing religious principles to be inaugurated for the coming age of kali. This was service to Krishna.

sva-dharmam api caveksya
na vikampitum arhasi
dharmyad dhi yuddhac chreyo 'nyat
ksatriyasya na vidyate

Considering your specific duty as a ksatriya, you should know that there is no better engagemeant for you than fighting on religious principles; and so there is no need for hesitation.

Lord Krishna says;

yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham

paritranaya sadhunam
vinasaya ca duskrtam
dharma-samsthapanarthaya
sambhavami yuge yuge

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself.
In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium.

[I]So one may act? finally!

We act from the moment consciousness enters into the fetus, according to Bhagavat Purana.
Acting is the evidence of consciousness/soul.

The part that one should go philosophical and try to understand the true religion while being battered and taken advantage of!

From that statement it is obvious you have misunderstood my replies.
Maybe you should refrain from trying to trip me up. ;)

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by UltiTruth
So one may act? finally! :)



there should be alternatives to state sanctioned violence against
minority anything. having peasants armed with pitch forks roaming the streets should not be an option.
lets hear some ideas. are there orgs working towards reconciliation?

Hi Jan,
Yes obviously your language is not Sanskrit.But please would you mind still using correct spellings on the board or may be verifying them before you say it here.Like for example You said Something about Kuru Dynasty,It Kaurav's and not Kurus.I'd be happy to correct you out.


thanks.
bye!

Originally posted by zion
Hi Jan,
Yes obviously your language is not Sanskrit.But please would you mind still using correct spellings on the board or may be verifying them before you say it here.Like for example You said Something about Kuru Dynasty,It Kaurav's and not Kurus.I'd be happy to correct you out.


thanks.
bye!

Thanks. ;)

Love

Jan Ardena.

Jan:

Are you sure no religion does that?[/I]
That is not an answer.
But the answer is an easy one, on a reality basis! And you need to face it.


Apart from reason not known, yes, the reason is due to ignorance of ones true position, therefore thinking oneself superior or inferior to another.
So you take no offence if the intruder is an ignorant- or better still a mad man?

Is this the only center?
Yes.
No
Sri Krishna in Gita says He is everything, and everything everyone does is as per his intentions. This is equally central.

So can Bhaktas resist aggression?
Yes, because they see everything as the mercy of the Lord, this is obviously a very difficult position for ordinary persons, but not for bhaktas. However some bhaktas will not (kshtrya), due to their position in society, which is also bhakti if done in the service of the Lord.
Kshatriya is a division based on duty, not birth in reality. And a bhaktha is not a special person- it means "devotee". So if I am a Kshatriya devotee, with a converted temple before my eyes, tell me what I am I supposed to do, Jan (and beyond the sweet philosophy, please)?

Because Arjuna was kashatrya, and by destroying the demonic kuru dynasty he would rid the earth of the overwhelming demonic population, allowing religious principles to be inaugurated for the coming age of kali.
...fighting on religious principles...
...a decline in religious practice...
...a predominant rise of irreligion...
...to deliver the pious...
...to reestablish the principles of religion...

"religious principles"???!!!- I thought Gita talked about Dharma in the sense of Justice, and Adharma in the sense of anarchy! Isn't Gita one layer above religion, Jan?
To the best of my knowledge, (and as zion pointed out similarly), kuru dynasty hardly has anything to with demonic population. Pandavas and Kauravas were cousins- the war was a family feud based on Dharma.

We act from the moment consciousness enters into the fetus, according to Bhagavat Purana.
Acting is the evidence of consciousness/soul.
You are really being literal, Jan. I am not talking of ACTING in movies either! :) :D

Maybe you should refrain from trying to trip me up. ;)
Do I need to do that? ;):D But don't get tripped off anyway (read the Gita if needed and be a "Sthitha Pragnya")! :p
spookz:
State sanctioned violence is never the answer. Fortunately, it was rarely resorted to, in my understanding. Nevertheless, awareness needs to grow. Few Hindus or Muslims know or even care to understand about history and to empathise.
For example, on the current temple issue, I am sure even a muslim would appreciate the plight that the Hindus went through in a certain part of time. If the leaders were not just loud vote-seekers, things would have been very different. Imagine the muslims themselves rebuilding the Ayodhya temple in place of the unused mosque, as a gesture of goodwill. That would provide enough charge for unity for the next 500 years, and make the Hindus permanently cease all further claims for any of the thousands of temples converted!
I remember one muslim leader was in favour of this. And Swamy Sankaracharya is also working for some acceptable solutions.
But for any of this to happen, I think monotheism, that automatically makes everyone else a traitor, is the biggest hassle!
Thanks

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UltiTruth
But the answer is an easy one,

Then tell me, and lets discuss it. :rolleyes:

on a reality basis! And you need to face it.

What reality would this be? :)

So you take no offence if the intruder is an ignorant- or better still a mad man?

Read my replies again. :(

No
Sri Krishna in Gita says He is everything, and everything everyone does is as per his intentions. This is equally central.

Now why don’t you give reference of your statement from the Gita regarding “everything everyone does is as per his intentions.” :)

Kshatriya is a division based on duty, not birth in reality.

Never the less, Arjuna was born a kshatriya.

And a bhaktha is not a special person- it means "devotee".

Bhakta is topsmost special person when they are Krishna devotees. :)

So if I am a Kshatriya devotee, with a converted temple before my eyes, tell me what I am I supposed to do, Jan (and beyond the sweet philosophy, please)?

What do you want me to tell you, I am not you, you will do whatever is in you heart and mind at the time. :p

"religious principles"???!!!- I thought Gita talked about Dharma in the sense of Justice, and Adharma in the sense of anarchy! Isn't Gita one layer above religion, Jan?

Dharma means religious principles and also ones eternal occupational position, i.e. rendering service to the Lord. To go against either is adharma.
How do you mean one layer above religion? :confused:

Love

Jan Ardena.

But the answer is an easy one,
Then tell me, and lets discuss it.
If you are telling me that you don't know any monotheistic religions that rule out the possibility of other religions/God/philosophy being true, I cannot help you- either you are too ignorant (which I know you aren't) or are feigning ignorance that I cannot do much about! :D
Anyways, I don't want this thread to be another 'My religion is "rightest"'- there are enough you can check out yourself!

Sri Krishna in Gita says He is everything, and everything everyone does is as per his intentions. This is equally central.
Now why don’t you give reference of your statement from the Gita regarding everything everyone does is as per his intentions.
Here:
O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)
I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of the creation, O Arjuna. Among the knowledge I am knowledge of the supreme Self. I am logic of the logician. (10.32)
I am the fraud of the gambler; I am the splendor of the splendid; I am victory (of the victorious); I am resolution (of the resolute); I am the goodness of the good. (10.36)
I am the origin or seed of all beings, O Arjuna. There is nothing, animate or inanimate, that can exist without Me. (See also 7.10 and 9.18) (10.39)

maya thathamidam sarvam jagadavyaktha moorthina
mathyani sarvabhoothani na chaham theshvavasthithaha

mathaha paratharam naanyathkiinchidasthi dhananjaya
mayi sarvamidam protham suthre manigana iva


And did you check out what "Nimitha matra" means, Jan? That answers your query in itself.
...and let me know if you need more on this.

So if I am a Kshatriya devotee, with a converted temple before my eyes, tell me what I am I supposed to do, Jan (and beyond the sweet philosophy, please)?
What do you want me to tell you, I am not you, you will do whatever is in you heart and mind at the time.
I asked you what I should, not what I would. Since you made some categorical statements on ignorance, I would like your opinion in the situation, of course sans pure phiolosphy again!

Dharma means religious principles
Source?

How do you mean one layer above religion?
Gita is not just religion. It is much more, of which religion would be a subset! And do I need to mention this to a Gita expert???!!! :p

The air is thick with ugliness and there's the unmistakable stench of fascism on the breeze.' (arundhati roy)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UltiTruth
If you are telling me that you don't know any monotheistic religions that rule out the possibility of other religions/God/philosophy being true, I cannot help you

When you say "other religions," are talking about the principles of that religion or peoples veiw of their religion?
If the latter of the two, then fine, I cannot argue with you, but if not, then my question still stands.

Anyways, I don't want this thread to be another 'My religion is "rightest"'- there are enough you can check out yourself!

Where did you get such an idea? :confused:

Now why don’t you give reference of your statement from the Gita regarding everything everyone does is as per his intentions.
[color=blue]Here:
O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)
I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of the creation, O Arjuna. Among the knowledge I am knowledge of the supreme Self. I am logic of the logician. (10.32)
I am the fraud of the gambler; I am the splendor of the splendid; I am victory (of the victorious); I am resolution (of the resolute); I am the goodness of the good. (10.36)
I am the origin or seed of all beings, O Arjuna. There is nothing, animate or inanimate, that can exist without Me. (See also 7.10 and 9.18) (10.39)

Where does it mention everyone does as per His intention, or how have you arrived at this conclusion based on the texts you have quoted??

And did you check out what "Nimitha matra" means, Jan? That answers your query in itself.
...and let me know if you need more on this.

No i haven't, please tell me. :rolleyes:

So if I am a Kshatriya devotee, with a converted temple before my eyes, tell me what I am I supposed to do, Jan (and beyond the sweet philosophy, please)?
What do you want me to tell you, I am not you, you will do whatever is in you heart and mind at the time.
I asked you what I should, not what I would. Since you made some categorical statements on ignorance, I would like your opinion in the situation, of course sans pure phiolosphy again!

Dharma means religious principles
[color=blue]Source?

There is no need of source, I will try and explain, dharma refers to the eternal and essential charictaristic of every object, e.g. the essential characteristic of sugar is its sweetness. The dharma of the living entity is one of an eternal relationship with God. Due to our forgetfulness we accept the temproral, illusive material energy as our all in all. Religious principles, sattva guna (mode of goodness) help us to remember our dharma, culminating in love of God, as these principles are not of man, but of God Himself, they are non-different from Him.

How do you mean one layer above religion?
[color=blue]Gita is not just religion. It is much more, of which religion would be a subset!

Who said it was a religion! But in the same breath the whole point of the Gita is that the living entity comes to the realisation that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Whole, God, (and what is the point of religion) and it is therefore in his interest to surrender to that Supreme Entity and abandon all other ideaologys.
Religious principles are not necasserily religion unless the disiplic succession has not been severed from God.

And do I need to mention this to a Gita expert???!!!

EZEE boy, I’m not your enemy. :p

Love

Jan Ardena.

So.. Ulti and Jana.. still both of u dodging each-other.. uhh.?

see u next week... lol..

EverNeo:
Yes, we need some fun on the Eastern philosophy board too. Don't we?

Jan:

Where does it mention everyone does as per His intention, or how have you arrived at this conclusion based on the texts you have quoted??
Either I am making assumptions or your don't see the obvious, Jan.
And I vote for the latter. And would love to see more votes!!! :p


EZEE boy, I’m not your enemy.
Of course, friend. And if I sounded any other way, I apologize. :(

Everneo,

So.. Ulti and Jana.. still both of u dodging each-other.. uhh.?

You are half right, there is some dodging going on, but none of it by me. :p

Either I am making assumptions or your don't see the obvious, Jan.
And I vote for the latter. And would love to see more votes!!!

So let me see if I have this right, you believe that "religion" show enmity toward other religions, based on mans view of religion?
If this is a correct assumption, then what do you regard as religion? :confused:

Of course, friend. And if I sounded any other way, I apologize.

I just got the feeling you were being condescending by refering to me as a "Gita expert" for which there was no need, but i do accept your apology. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Everneo,

So.. Ulti and Jana.. still both of u dodging each-other.. uhh.?

You are half right, there is some dodging going on, but none of it by me. :p
So now you are dodging everneo? :p



Either I am making assumptions or your don't see the obvious, Jan.
And I vote for the latter. And would love to see more votes!!!

So let me see if I have this right, you believe that "religion" show enmity toward other religions, based on mans view of religion
No



Of course, friend. And if I sounded any other way, I apologize.
I just got the feeling you were being condescending by refering to me as a "Gita expert" for which there was no need, but i do accept your apology. :)
Love
Jan Ardena. [/B]
Well, I thought you brought in the Gita bit into the thread and also advised to read it!?
And since you brought in the word "Condescending", weren't you the one who used the term "Ignorance" very early in the thread?
Greets

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UltiTruth
So let me see if I have this right, you believe that "religion" show enmity toward other religions, based on mans view of religion?

No

Nice conversation we nearly had there. :p

Well, I thought you brought in the Gita bit into the thread and also advised to read it!?

It still does not make me sound like I am an expert, it was a simple request.
Me personally, every time I read the Gita, sincerely, I learn something new, this learning ability is multiplied, when hearing it from a reliable source, it is something like, the more you know, the more you understand how little you know, this is my positon. :)

And since you brought in the word "Condescending", weren't you the one who used the term "Ignorance" very early in the thread?

Very nice propaganda, you have joined two words which I used, and used them to paint a bad picture, to me this shows that either a) you have not read my posts fully :rolleyes:, or b) it doesn’t matter what I say :p, you have made up your mind. :(

As far as my understanding of practical ignorance goes, we are all ignorant to some degree or other. ;)

Love

Jan Ardena.

Will the meek Hinduism survive?

I think so. It has for 7000 years though a little muddy in the process from Sanatana Dharma...but then again, Hinduism which gave us Vedas, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Gita...is not meek, may be the people are.

Oh kmguru,
nice to see you back, after a long time!
:)

Originally posted by kmguru
Will the meek Hinduism survive?

I think so. It has for 7000 years though a little muddy in the process from Sanatana Dharma...but then again, Hinduism which gave us Vedas, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Gita...is not meek, may be the people are.

What is hinduism?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Hinduism is the world's oldest surviving religion. What seperates hinduism from most other religions is that other religions lay great emphasis on converting people of other faiths to that religion. Christianity and Islam spring readily to mind here. Hinduism will never die out. It is a fallaccy to suppose that hindus are meek and tolerate sacrilage to their religion.

Virtous conduct is an important tenet of hinduism. Reincarnattion is something most hindus believe in. Trying to convert people of other faiths to their religion has been the philosophy of christianity and islam, something i completely disagree with. Hinduism is not nearly as much a religion as it is a way of life.

Take the Godhra riots for example. A group of muslims burnt a train compartment full of hindu priests. The chief minister of the state of Gujurat spread false propoganda with the result that many many uneducated hindus believed the muslims of Gujurat were trying to destroy their religion. What followed was a nations shame. Hindu mobs burning, pillaging, killing muslims and muslim settlements.

Like any devout people hindus take offense to any threat to their religion. They are definitley not as fanatical as muslims or as eager as christians to spread their faith but as far as religion is concerned, don't trifle with them.

There's a guy in Bihar, a state of India, who after the Godhra riots believed that muslims were trying to convert hindus to Islam. So, now he rides with a motorcyle gang of around 40 like minded guys and beats up and muslim he sees on the road.

Hinduism will always survive. Whether it spreads to other countries and flourishes couldn't concern us at all. In India, it will always survive and flourish.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by airavata
Hinduism is the world's oldest surviving religion.

With all due respect, what is the hindu religion, and why is the term "hinduism" not mentioned in any vedic literature.

The question i posed, "what is hinduism" was in response to KM's claim that hinduism has been around for 7,000 years, and i have been told that the term "hindu" has been around for only about 2,000 years, and that the root of todays hinduism comes from the original sanatana dharma which was expounded by the viashnav community, via disiplic sucsession, the root of which being Lord Shri Krishna/ Vishnu.

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 15, Verse 15.

Lord Krishna........."I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas I am to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas".

What seperates hinduism from most other religions is that other religions lay great emphasis on converting people of other faiths to that religion.

Is it not true that some hindus worship Lord Shiva, Ganesh, goddess Kali, Lakshmi devi, Lord Indra, the four Kumaras, some are seculists, some are atheist, some are buddhists and so on?
If that is the case, then would it not be hard to convert people to hinduism?

Reincarnattion is something most hindus believe in.

Why not all?

Hinduism is not nearly as much a religion as it is a way of life.

This, i agree.

Like any devout people hindus take offense to any threat to their religion.

You say "their religion" as though they have a central belief structure. I believe hindus, as any peoples, be it american, african, etc, would take offense to any threat, this is nature.

Hinduism will always survive.

I believe they will.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Welcome Airavata!

I am a new member in this forum and I have read thru a lot of threads relating to Hinduism and they are really good.

What I wanted to add to this thread (if it still alive) is that:

Hinduism as a philosphy will survive b'cos that is the only way things are going to progress - basically hinduism in itself gives everybody a chance to think freely as it is not bound by any "Religion" (note the quotes).

Hinduism as a religion will remain and not die out as it is pretty advanced compared to other religions. i.e. Hindu religion had time to fine tune over a vast period of time and reached almost perfect state. Of course some people have used it for their own misuse.
Tell me one religion that has not done the wrong things.

The most important part in the present times are this:
1. We have to be proud about being a Hindu.
2. Some christians think that one day Christianity will rule India :o . These people have got to be explained why they are so wrong.
3. Explain Hindu / Hinduism to the next generations and to this generation. You would be aghast to know that not many people in India know what is Hindu / Hinduism.

I am sure we can take extreme action and we should take in some cases.
I believe Lord Krishna was right in saying "Protect Dharma". If it has to be done, it has to be done. I have no sympathies for other religions but only sympathy for them.

-N

I have not been following this thread, but I do not agree the title of the thread, that suggests Hinduism is meek. I think over 1 billion people ascribe to this faith, and recently it is gaining acceptance and influence on western culture too(e.g. Matrix) so it most certainly isn't meek.

Hindu mysticism is also greatly appreciated amongst physicists. I personally find it's philosophy of Maya(illusion) reincarnation, higher levels of consciousness, the cyclic universe, the soul, the ether, multiple universes, extrasolar planets and extraterretrial life, and it's objective outlook of life, fascinating and astonishing. Hinduism was eons ahead of it's time and that is why it is becoming more accepted today, because it a religion of the future.

Not only will Hinduism survive, it is destined to flourish. I am sure you will not accept my view, but Hinduism is probably not a terrestrial religion, on the grounds that it is too pro-scientific; too civilized and intelligent; that it's doubtful, that 10,000+ years ago, stone-age man would think of something so rich and advanced, that it would even fascinate modern scientists.

I do not wish to sound like I am putting Hinduism on a pedestal, but the war-like, and overly deluded, Islam and Christianity, are much more like a religion man would devise.

I am not Hindu btw, so I have no reason to romanticize it, simply too make it look good.

crazymikey:
Great post crazymikey.

...but Hinduism is probably not a terrestrial religion, on the grounds that it is too pro-scientific; too civilized and intelligent; that it's doubtful, that 10,000+ years ago, stone-age man would think of something so rich and advanced, that it would even fascinate modern scientists.

Or could it be that we are assuming 10,000 years was stone age, everywhere on the earth?

In short, Buddhism is all but dead
No, its just that we're quiet. Buddhism is flourishing in the West. Buddhism can be understood as as offshoot of Hinduism, it was those parts of Hinduism that could be exported and understood in China, modified, of course, by Buddha's own insight. Aggressive religions will be hurt by their own aggression. Who said "the meek will inherit the earth"?. Their "softness" is their strength, nothing should be done apart from making them known and available. Walk into any Border's Books, and there will be thousands of books on eastern religion, buddhism, taoism, zen, shamanism, and yoga.

I think the question is, should they get political, and I think not. We should not adopt the values of the dominating, oppressive, patriarchal culture, it is an antidote to that. Anyway, who cares if they survive? The essential experience of enlightenment is universal, these eastern religions are simply methods, along with some mythology to spice it up.

The caste system is unique to India, perhaps this explains why Hunduism as such does not export well.

Thank you Ultitruth,

It's very possible that an advanced civilization existed at that time, although it would seem odd for it to be overwhelmingly advanced, while the rest of the world is still in the stone age. The fact that Hinduism speaks of extraterrestrial civilizations, it's called gods, and extrasolar planets, is a good indication, that there may really have been ET contact in the past and that would explain why Hinduism was so much more advanced.

The caste system is unique to India, perhaps this explains why Hunduism as such does not export well.

The caste system isn't an essential part of hinduism anymore. It did have its use in ancient times, whereby each person knew his/her own position in society. It has however, long since outlived its usefulness. Even though discrimination based on caste is banned in India, it's still being propogated by the so called upper class elite in order to maintain their social status. The caste system is quite pointless in this day and age, not to mention humiliating for the 'lower castes' - shudras.

Religious Class, Warrior Class, Working Class - Babylon 5 - set in a futuristic advanced society. Interesting!

The original -ism, Hinduism could morph and survive for a long long time....

ET - Come home. May be Atlantis was in the west at the time and got destroyed during the Mahabharat war! Something to speculate....

When West thought Earth is the center of the Universe and flat, the Hindus dreamed up other planets, advanced civilizations, space ships, replicators, advanced weapons etc. Makes you wonder....

No, its just that we're quiet. Buddhism is flourishing in the West. Buddhism can be understood as as offshoot of Hinduism, it was those parts of Hinduism that could be exported and understood in China, modified, of course, by Buddha's own insight.
Actually Buddha was born and did preach in India till his last. Buddha denounced ritualistic and theological part of hinduism and retained its philosophical aspect. We could find close resemblence between Advaitic vedanta and Buddhism.

When West thought Earth is the center of the Universe and flat, the Hindus dreamed up other planets, advanced civilizations, space ships, replicators, advanced weapons etc. Makes you wonder....

It sure does :D

The West has been handicapped (until recently) by lack of relationship with psychoactive plants. The Indian cultures had the mysterious soma, and were influenced by magic mushrooms. I think this is the origin of the worship of cows. Shrooms grow in cow shit.

Soma Juice was drunk by the gods to increase their strength I think, so it's believed.

sure, the gods ;)

"HINDUISM".....will never die....because its eternal rule that truth never dies. "HINDUISM" is more that around 6000 years old....and after so much of attack from all sides ...still 1/6th of humanity is hindu and that % is increasing everyday.....followers of this "universal truth" may increase or decrease but because "HINDUISM" is universal truth ....there is no question weather it will survive or not ....

Hinduism has one thing going for it and one thing going against it. The biggest thing going for it is that it is very flexable to a changing society. The hindu saying many paths one truth allows it the flexablity to reach a wide and diverse audiance and allows it to meld better as society changes over time.

The thing going against it today is geography. The largest concentrated population of Hindus is in India. India if you don't know is one of the most crowed aread on the earth today with a population of over one billion people constricted to an area about 1/3 the size of the US

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html#People

The population according to the link above says that hindus make up 81 % of the population.

Bangledesh

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bg.html#People
141 million


and pakastan


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html#People


which are primarly muslim, according to the CIA source above 83 % and 97 % respectivly annexed sections of the country takein a total area of about 25 % of the land with it.

While middle eastern muslims don't seem to live with other religions (I said middle eastern muslims not all muslims) very well making the split a long term peace project the hindu religion is concentrated into one geographical which keeps the religion from moving across the globe at a pace that other religions have enjoyed. Although 81 % of a billion is a lot of hindus and that may well make up for it.