According to the Bible people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death.

What is there reasoning behind this statement?


The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)



NUMBERS 15
32 When the Israelites were in the wilderness they found a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to the whole community. 34 They put him in custody, because there was no clear instruction about what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; the whole community must stone him with stones outside the camp.” 15:36 So the whole community took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the LORD commanded Moses.



http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

http://www.bluethread.com/workintanakh.htm


In the Quran, they are turned into apes who are despised and rejected [by other Jews], but only as an example and as a lesson




And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear God" But ye turned back thereafter: Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of God to you, ye had surely been among the lost. And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." So We made it an example to their own time and to their posterity, and a lesson to those who fear God. [2:63-66]

The reasoning behind the statement can be found in the statement itself. The Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between God and the people of Israel; breaking the Sabbath is, at least symbolically, equivalent to breaking the covenant between God and your people. Breaking such a covenant was considered a grave crime, which is why it became a capital offense.

So when was the practice rescinded and why? Why are people no longer put to death for breaking the Sabbath?

According to the Bible people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death.

What is there reasoning behind this statement?


The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

It could be this, in roundabout:

Sabbath day = spiritual practice (ie. remembering the Lord, and thereby becoming holy)

not keeping the Sabbath day = no spiritual practice

no spiritual practice = being godless, immoral, decreipt, unholy, entering hellish conditions of life



Why are people no longer put to death for breaking the Sabbath?

Perhaps because one or more of the above "equations" are not considred valid anymore.

Why would anyone ask about "the reasoning behind" anything written in the Bible?

The Bible is what believers may reason from, and unbelievers may reason about, but no one now is in any position to justify the Bible by reason. Or the Quran, for that matter. They are what they are.

So when was the practice rescinded and why? Historical circumstance is one thing, and the probable major factor (what day is the Sabbath, anyway?), but the best known part of the Bible that Christians use to deflect the bad PR that would come from killing people for working on this or that day is the Biblical story of one of Jesus's encounters with a local Imam, in which Jesus is berated for hand-hulling some grain for a snack on the Sabbath. He delivers one of his homilies, about how no one would leave their donkey in a pit on the Sabbath, or allow other bad things to happen, and common sense should trump clerical nitpicking over what God intended as a day of rest and respite; ending with a famous quote: "- the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath".

Why would anyone ask about "the reasoning behind" anything written in the Bible?

The Bible is what believers may reason from, and unbelievers may reason about, but no one now is in any position to justify the Bible by reason. Or the Quran, for that matter. They are what they are.
Historical circumstance is one thing, and the probable major factor (what day is the Sabbath, anyway?), but the best known part of the Bible that Christians use to deflect the bad PR that would come from killing people for working on this or that day is the Biblical story of one of Jesus's encounters with a local Imam, in which Jesus is berated for hand-hulling some grain for a snack on the Sabbath. He delivers one of his homilies, about how no one would leave their donkey in a pit on the Sabbath, or allow other bad things to happen, and common sense should trump clerical nitpicking over what God intended as a day of rest and respite; ending with a famous quote: "- the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath".

Inspite of this?

Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.
I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.

PR trumps the Lord?

PR trumps the Lord?

In the yes of many people, yes.

According to the Bible people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death.

What is there reasoning behind this statement?



You provided your own answer by quoting the scripture.

Anyone going against the commands of God is worthy of death.

Do you agree or not?



In the Quran, they are turned into apes who are despised and rejected [by other Jews], but only as an example and as a lesson

As a Christian i do not believe that quran is correct here.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So when was the practice rescinded and why? Why are people no longer put to death for breaking the Sabbath?

People are still under a death sentence for going against the will of God, The law is the same but the sentence is no longer carried out by the followers of God. The sentence is carried out by God at the final judgement. except where the guilty one has accepted the atonement of their sin that has been provided by God thought the Messiah Jesus. :)


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

What is the point of a death sentence in going against the will of God?

What exactly are you losing or gaining here?

What is the point of a death sentence in going against the will of God?

What exactly are you losing or gaining here?

Good point.

I am assuming it is because the Christian doctrine and practices are so impotent/incomplete that they cannot reinstate the person in goodness and devotion to God in this lifetime (again), after the person has committed a sin.

Anyone going against the commands of God is worthy of death.

What sort of death?

Death of the body, death of the soul, or by "death" you mean "eternal hell"?

S.A.M.

It's been a while since I made this point, and it usually comes up in politics, but one of the differences between Christian/post-Christian cultures and the Islamic world is that Christians just don't take their faith as seriously.

For instance, in the gay debate, we hear about lifestyle sins and how churches can't condone that, but given the number of Christian churches that openly and freely endorse the lifestyle sin of adultery in contravention of Christ's actual words, it's obvious that they're granting themselves some wiggle room.

Christian women are supposed to cover their heads and remain silent in church. That's not a big deal anymore, either.

And we've found money far more satisfying than certain other ... enticements. To the one, Liberia has a high concentration of Christians (40%), and not all of those have clean hands after the recent turmoil. To the other, Americans don't really get pissed off unless money is involved.

Christians just don't take the Bible seriously.

Christians just don't take the Bible seriously.

I understand, but thats not the question I am asking. Being despised or rejected by the community can be a motivation for going back to the covenant i.e. keeping the Shabbath. What is killing supposed to achieve?

iow, what is the point of a death sentence for breaking the covenant? What does it achieve?

christians not taking the bible seriously :p

What is the point of a death sentence in going against the will of God?

What exactly are you losing or gaining here?

Personally. Nothing.

I don't gain anything when someone is put to death. It's not about me and them it is about God and us.

In the OT God demonstrates the price of sin. The Law in its entirety showed both what sin was and also what the price of sin was.. Death.

Sin has it's serious consequence. That is learnt from the Law.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So if the price of sin is death, what does say that about mortality?

What about babies who die young?

Here is the simple answer Sam. The law was given to the jews by God through Moses. The jews are under the old testament law not the gentiles. The law wasn't given to the Gentiles was it?

The law wasn't given to the Gentiles was it?

where does it say that? Didn't Jesus say he came to uphold the laws?

where does it say that? Didn't Jesus say he came to uphold the laws?

You will find it in the old testament When moses was on the mount and God passed along the 10 comandment. It was certianly directed to the Jews. Yes Jesus did and he was Jew read the first part of the 15th chapter of acts for the answer to your questions about the old testament law. Let me know what you decide.

What sort of death?

Death of the body, death of the soul, or by "death" you mean "eternal hell"?

Well death of the body came when sin came in the world through the knowledge of good and evil.

The lake of fire is a kind of living death. it is called the second death. Far more serious than the first death

Revelation 21
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

So yeah i mean the second death.

Oh i did not answer the question you had earler about the point at which the followers of God where no longer called upon to put people to death. That was when Jesus came.


So if the price of sin is death, what does say that about mortality?

Not sure what point your getting at here? could you expand it a bit?



What about babies who die young?

They are innocent. i believe they are free from any judgement because they have no knowledge of good and evil.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Not sure what point your getting at here? could you expand it a bit?

If the price of sin is death, why does everybody die? Including the innocent?

where does it say that? Didn't Jesus say he came to uphold the laws?

Jesus came to fullfill the law was the claim.

If the price of sin is death, why does everybody die? Including the innocent?

Good question.

Well it is Gods will for us to be reconciled with Him and to exist with him in eternity. We cannot do that in the bodies we currently have. So i guess we all have to die.

But maybe the Physical death we see and experience is only a sign of the real Second death, the one in the Lake of Fire. Maybe physical death in itself is not the actual punishment. When you think about it, it is only a transition from once state of existence to another.

Yes very good question. i will have to ask about this :)


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Good question.

Well it is Gods will for us to be reconciled with Him and to exist with him in eternity. We cannot do that in the bodies we currently have. So i guess we all have to die.

But maybe the Physical death we see and experience is only a sign of the real Second death, the one in the Lake of Fire. Maybe physical death in itself is not the actual punishment. When you think about it, it is only a transition from once state of existence to another.

Yes very good question. i will have to ask about this :)


All Praise The Ancient Of Days



Thanks, I see your point about the second death. But I think the description of death for breaking the Sabbath seems to indicate the first one. Whcih would of course make following the Sabbath redundant for the one who died. Which makes me wonder why it would be applied

Thanks, I see your point about the second death. But I think the description of death for breaking the Sabbath seems to indicate the first one. Whcih would of course make following the Sabbath redundant for the one who died. Which makes me wonder why it would be applied

That stuff is irrelevant, do read the first part of the 15th chapter of acts and you will see what happened to all the old rules.

If one is breaking the sabbath according to the Jewish law, then tell me which day is it?

Yeah I read it (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+15&version=NIV), but I don't see what authority Peter and Paul have over Jesus

Yeah I read it (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+15&version=NIV), but I don't see what authority Peter and Paul have over Jesus

They established the new church and made the rules to guide it according to the authority invested in them as apostles of christ.

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Thats it SAM anymore rules than that, and I would have to question by who's authority do you speak?

Thanks, I see your point about the second death. But I think the description of death for breaking the Sabbath seems to indicate the first one. Whcih would of course make following the Sabbath redundant for the one who died. Which makes me wonder why it would be applied

I guess it was the ultimate sign to the Jewish community in general and down through their generations of the seriousness of Gods will. Also it is a message to us.

The will of God is a very serious issue with very serious ramifications


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I guess it was the ultimate sign to the Jewish community in general and down through their generations of the seriousness of Gods will. Also it is a message to us.

The will of God is a very serious issue with very serious ramifications


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

How is dying a serious ramification if innocent people die?

earth:

Who invested them with this authority?

What is food polluted by idols?

If one is breaking the sabbath according to the Jewish law, then tell me which day is it?

The sabbath is from friday sunset to saturday sunset.

The Biblical day goes from sundown to sundown.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

How is dying a serious ramification if innocent people die?

earth:

Who invested them with this authority?

The second death is the serious ramification. The first death is a shadow, a sign of the second death.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

The sabbath is from friday sunset to saturday sunset.

The Biblical day goes from sundown to sundown.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Correct answer, its not sunday, the law concerning the sabbath was done away with because after christ had risen from the dead sunday became the accept day of worship in the new christian church. Chirst did rise on sunday according to the teaching.

earth:

Who invested them with this authority?

What is food polluted by idols?

Supposedly Jesus invested them with this authority.

Food polluted by idols is the offering of the animal in sacrifice to a God. Jesus death made an end to sacrifical offerings. The point was not to get into the practice again.

Actually the word is vest authority. My mistake.

Jesus vested them with his authority.

Correct answer, its not sunday, the law concerning the sabbath was done away with because after christ had risen from the dead sunday became the accept day of worship in the new christian church. Chirst did rise on sunday according to the teaching.

No, Sunday sabbath was a creation of the cathoic church. Not Christianity. Jesus was not raised from the dead on Sunday He was raised from the dead just before the start of the Sabbath that was Saturday, just before sunset.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: i made a mistake that i have edited. I stated He was raised from the dead just before the end of the sabbath. i apologise for this, i have correct it to Just before the start of the weekly sabbath.

No, Sunday sabbath was a creation of the cathoic church. Not Christianity. Jesus was not raised from the dead on Sunday He was raised from the dead just before the end of the Sabbath that was Saturday, just before sunset.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Book says in the morning Mary in one story and Peter in another account went to the tomb and found it open and Jesus was not in it. That would mean sunday morning. Verse please to establish your version.

So when was the practice rescinded and why? Why are people no longer put to death for breaking the Sabbath?
We grew up, you fucking moron, and stopped basing all our ideals on some book that says "do this or else".

Is this what passes for "Intelligent conversation" around here now?

The reasoning behind the statement can be found in the statement itself. The Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between God and the people of Israel; breaking the Sabbath is, at least symbolically, equivalent to breaking the covenant between God and your people. Breaking such a covenant was considered a grave crime, which is why it became a capital offense.

Symbolically is the operative word.

What if you were working at helping a disabled person, or nursing sick people - would God rather you just leave them in a pile of their own shit and go home and pray?

iow, what is the point of a death sentence for breaking the covenant? What does it achieve?

You know, there's this bit in the Old Testament—and this is how specific it is—that says if two men get in a fight, and a woman grabs one of them by the balls, you are to cut her hand off.

Where the fuck did that come from? And what, really, is the point?

There's another bit where if you are dissatisfied with your wife, you take her to the rabbi, who poisons her, and if it doesn't kill her or cause her anguish, she is acquitted of being an unsatisfactory wife.

That's right up there with the ducking stool: If we kill her, she's innocent. If she lives, she's guilty.

What the hell is the point of that?

It has to do with superstition, and by that I don't mean the condemning context I use in relation to our contemporary religious freaks. (Did you ever notice that, even though we've gotten to the point in the U.S. where we can say "ass" on television, it's still the "God" part that is bleeped or silenced out of "goddamn"? And, yet, any rational scholar of theology will tell you that this is certainly not what the third commandment means.) In this case, we have to remember that human civilizations were emerging throughout the ancient period. Science? Knowledge? Philosophy? These operated in fits and starts—Greece, India, China, &c.—but didn't really take off in Europe until the Renaissance. If you read through the early and middle Christian philosophers, they perform some incredibly complex maneuvers with childishly simple concepts. It's actually impressive in its own right.

But the Old Testament standard for murder can come down, literally, to the difference between night and day. Religious philosophies—especially the Abramic usurpations—tend to develop intricate theories based on incomplete knowledge of objects and concepts sparsely understood if at all.

If you look at religion through a lens of psychology—e.g., Freud, Totem and Taboo (1913) and Moses and Monotheism (1938), or even Norman O. Brown's Life Against Death (1959)—religious philosophies are derived from the human psyche. While the religionist might suggest that we find certain things important because God made them important, the psychologist might counter that we invest those aspects in God because we find them important.

In that context, bizarre religious rules and customs reflect the state of mind of the people who devise and practice them. They are invested, originally, in the psyches of their inventors, and later transformed and re-invested in subsequent generations of faithful.

There was a time, for instance, when "ritual" seclusion after bodily functions, or prohibitions against tattoos made sense. Even sexual taboos. Really, when you're a suffering people wandering lost through the desert, hygenic septicism, extraneous infected wounds, and wasted seed and unintended pregnancies aren't the best things for the community. Try explaining that, though, in scientific and philosophical terms. Better yet, define intrafamily psychological matrices for ancient people according to contemporary perspectives, and you'll be seen as a spirit of evil.

And, yes, there is a point when ritual cleanliness and such are taken too far. Some American tribes virtually exiled their women during menstruation, but isn't there psychological value in that? Ew! It's bleeding! Sure, I might have come from one of those, but get that nasty thing out of here because I want to fuck it! Talk about neurosis.

But what you're looking at is a freeze-frame of history reinterpreted over and over by people who aren't so much unquestioning as they are inwardly focused. That is, they spend a lot of time figuring out how to please God without ever stopping to wonder if maybe, just maybe, God might have been fucking around with us on a few of those rules.

I was watching Star Blazers last night, including the episode where Wildstar and Conroy capture a Gamilon pilot. After a bunch of silly melodrama, including this great line about how boring outer space is, Captain Avatar finally releases the captive pilot. He's useless, has no real information to give. Avatar's rationale is simply that the Yamato has just enough food for its crew and journey, and cannot afford to sustain a prisoner. And then, in a classic turn, after Conroy leaves to escort the pilot back to his plane, Avatar tells Wildstar to make sure the guy has enough food to get wherever he's going.

The thing is that Avatar is correct factually. They do not have enough food to sustain a prisoner. Indeed, I think it's shortly after that, they stop at a strange planet looking for food.

So his choices are to either kill the prisoner or release him. And this is where the question arises.

In a former, earthbound day, a leader would have the prisoner executed. But Avatar is enlightened and civilized; he recognizes this mindless drone is not a cruel criminal, but nearly as much a victim of the Gamilon empire as the people of Earth.

Coming back to the real world, we're wrestling with some of those issues in our own time. Early in the Iraqi Bush Adventure, soldiers were filmed cheering as they killed a wounded, disarmed enemy lying in the street. Now, this is exactly the sort of savagery we attribute to our enemies. So what is this enlightened standard? How did the brutality of the Biblical era (e.g., the Amalekite genocide and God's repentance) become transformed into this strange institution we have today where compassion demands that we only kill people in certain ways? And how did we evolve to witness a broad, international push against killing people at all?

Then was then. Now is now. Some people alive now would rather have lived then, apparently.

The point of such strange customs is not one that makes sense to us in any visceral way. Intellectually, sure. I mean, I was eating at Chiang's in the U-District one night when I finally realized a legitimate purpose to eating lamb. If you're the Mongols breaking camp, do you take the lambs, who will slow down the journey, or leave them for potential enemies to find? Neither. You slaughter them and take what you can get. Sure as hell beats the modern custom of eating lamb because it's "sophisticated". I can understand either outlook on lamb intellectually, but I'm missing a visceral connection. I've never been a Mongol, or on the move like that. And I've never been part of those social strata that apparently need odd foods like lamb or veal or that stupid fish that poisons you to death if you don't cut and cook it right.

I would speculate, though, that the point of a death sentence had something to do with fear. Six of the ten commandments, under the Sanhedrin, carried the death penalty. And one that didn't? Well, the perp was supposed to have his hand cut off. These rules originated among a people steeped in superstition. They tied their fortune as a society, and as individuals, to adherence to what they believed God wanted. Psychologically, yes, it's a sublimation of primal bloodlust, and in that context, the point of it is whatever the people at the time thought the point was. Maybe they really believed God would harm them if they didn't kill someone for honoring the Sabbath. Or maybe they were just a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards. Given the fact that they were human, I'd say it's probably a mix of the two.

I forget who the original author is. I mean, it's traditional, but you know how that goes. Anyway, I picked it up years ago from Idries Shah's Tales of the Dervishes (New York: Penguin Arkana, 1993):


One day Jesus, the son of Mary, while a child, was fashioning small birds out of clay. Some other youngsters who could not do so ran oto the elders and told them, with many complaints. The elders said, "This work cannot be allowed on the Sabbath," for it was a Saturday.

Accordingly they went to the pool where the Son of Mary was sitting and asked him where his birds were. For an answer he pointed to the birds which had been fashioned: and they flew away.

"Making birds which fly is impossible, therefore it cannot be a breaking of the Sabbath," said one elder.

"I would learn this art," said another.

"This is no art, it is but deception," said a third.

So the Sabbath was not broken, the art could not be taught. As for deception, the elders as well as the children had deceived themselves, because they did not know what the object of the fashioning of the birds was.

The reason for doing no work on Saturday had been forgotten. The knowledge of what is a deception and what is not was imperfect to those elders. The beginning of art and the end of action was unknown to them ....

(Nine years (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=37490&postcount=1). It's been nine years since I pulled that one out. Damn. I'm not sure whether I'm impressed or frightened.)

Half a page, Tiassa?

Half a page, Tiassa?


Now you drink whiskey like it was water.
And you slug down NyQuil like it was a glass of lemonade.
You drink that rot-gut whiskey like it was water.
And you still drink that NyQuil—wake up woman!—cough syrup like a glass of lemonade.

You know, I regret the day I wrapped my
Skinny legs around your fat butt,
Because that was about 375 pounds of the
Biggest stinkin' mistake I sure ever made.

And one more thing honey:

Roberta ... roll over.
Honey, I got somethin' down here I want you to see,
Roberta ... wake up.
C'mon, honey, roll over.
'Cause I got somethin' down here—
I got somethin' down here I want you to see.

Oh my God!

Your white go-go boots are scuffin' up the linin' on the waterbed again.
And you gotta get your big,
Freaky,
Furry,
Frantic,
Look-so-fine-walkin'-down-the-street-like-
Two-great-big-watermelons-hooked-up-in-time-
To-the-paint-shaker-of-destiny-playing-the-
Drum-beat-to-Inna-Gadda-Da-Vida-in-those-
Wet-look-hot-pants-incoming-large-unidentified-object-on-the-street
Legs—mmm-mmm!—
Off of me.

Love is a beautiful thing.

(Rev. Billy C. Wirtz (http://drop.io/adrilankha/asset/rev-billy-c-wirtz-roberta))

Fuck you. I'll deal with that when I'm sober.

Reminds me of Cummings. Aren't sure why....I'll work through that tomorrow.

Impressed or frightened. I wouldn't have been either. Might have held on to something that long, might not. And if I had, might not have bothered to reiterate. Certainly no mind to elucidate. This place is flatulence.

Right. Cummings. Had to say what he had to say. Short 'n sweet. Thinking the only thing which gets in the way of you is you.
Same as everyone else. Only a matter of degree, yes?

According to the Bible people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death.

What is there reasoning behind this statement?

Myth and superstition, the same reasoning behind much of the Quran and every other scripture. Duh.

According to the Bible people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death.

What is there reasoning behind this statement?

Theocracy. Any executions from this law in the past 2,000 years? How about in Israel?


In the Quran, they are turned into apes who are despised and rejected [by other Jews], but only as an example and as a lesson

:rolleyes: A "lesson" for their supposed turning away from faith. Which, of course, was bollocks.

I would speculate, though, that the point of a death sentence had something to do with fear. Six of the ten commandments, under the Sanhedrin, carried the death penalty. And one that didn't? Well, the perp was supposed to have his hand cut off. These rules originated among a people steeped in superstition. They tied their fortune as a society, and as individuals, to adherence to what they believed God wanted. Psychologically, yes, it's a sublimation of primal bloodlust, and in that context, the point of it is whatever the people at the time thought the point was. Maybe they really believed God would harm them if they didn't kill someone for honoring the Sabbath. Or maybe they were just a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards. Given the fact that they were human, I'd say it's probably a mix of the two.


Yes, but fear of what? Dying? But why would death cause fear? Because you would meet your maker and he would what? Kill you? Or worse, not kill you? I mean, you're already dead, what's worse? Suffering but not dying after dying? Seems like there is a lesson unlearned there.

Why are people no longer put to death for breaking the Sabbath?

Because most people live in secular countries in which the religious authorities do not have the right to take life.

Exactly.

You mean they ignore the Lords commands? Because He's what? Misled? Off the mark? Clueless? Anachronistic? Not worth the bother? Incompatible with civilised society? All of the above?

Or the humans that wrote it were wrong? Or that they weigh more heavily the humanitarian precepts of their religion?

You mean they ignore the Lords commands? Because He's what? Misled? Off the mark? Clueless? Anachronistic? Not worth the bother? Incompatible with civilised society? All of the above?

I think religious people would like to follow "God's" words to the letter, but wiser and more reasonable minds have seemed to prevail (for now).

They only kill people for wise and reasonable reasons other than breaking the covenant with the Lord? Which changes what, exactly, besides the definition of wise and reasonable?

What is worse than breaking a covenant you made with the Lord?

I'm sure most Muslims would agree with that, which is why they like to stone rape victims to death.

I'm sure most Muslims would agree with that, which is why they like to stone rape victims to death.

Yeah they follow the non-Palestinian laws for some reason. The Quran does not prescribe stoning for anything.

The Quran does not prescribe stoning for anything.

It leaves it up to the perpetrator(s) to decide the means as well as the justification. How very efficient.

What is worse than breaking a covenant you made with the Lord?

So, you're asking what could possibly be worse than an eternity of hellfire?

It leaves it up to the perpetrator(s) to decide the means as well as the justification. How very efficient.

Yeah, pretty much. Also the punishment and the forgiveness, while maintaining forgiveness as the best of all options. There's much to be said for that. Wouldn't you agree?

So, you're asking what could possibly be worse than an eternity of hellfire?

Where does it say eternity of hellfire for breaking the Sabbath? It only says death

Yeah, pretty much. Also the punishment and the forgiveness, while maintaining forgiveness as the best of all options. There's much to be said for that. Wouldn't you agree?

There's a great many things to be said about... well, a great many things, Sam. I suppose that's the point, isn't it... not just what you find from a one-all-singular book of myths.

There's a great many things to be said about... well, a great many things, Sam. I suppose that's the point, isn't it... not just what you find from a one-all-singular book of myths.

Feel free to say it and we can compare notes.

Yeah they follow the non-Palestinian laws for some reason. The Quran does not prescribe stoning for anything.

What difference does that make? The Quran is not Islam in it's entirety any more than the Torah is Judaism.

Maybe a Torah Jew could explain?

There are obviously different schools of interpretation, the Talmud, and different sects- orthodox and reformed...

I will make it simple, despite your vindictive sourcing.

The key is the ordering.
(in simplicity here...)
The first commandment says to believe in the God who took Israel from Egypt, the second to confirm that he is one - and not to worship idols, the third to respect his name and not use it lightly, the fourth to keep the Sabbath.

The first time it's listed in Exodus 20:8 it says the reason is "This is a day of rest for God", the second time in Deuteronomy 5:12 it says "To recall your exodus from Egypt".

In a commentary on Rambam's Mishneh Torah, "Anyone who says that he believes in G-d but denies these [its] truths, is fooling himself. He may say that he believes in G-d, but what he really has done is to set up an idol and called it G-d. " - Kesef Mishneh, Lechem Mishneh, on Yad, Tshuvah 3:7

In another commentary it states "As creator, G-d's existence cannot depend on any of his creatures. Our definition therefore rejects any concept of G-d as an abstract ethical force or social convention" - Emunos VeDeyos 1:1, Yad, Yesodey HaTorah 1:1,5.

If a person says that he believes in a God, but does not believe that He is Creator, then he does not really believe in the Jewish concept of God. If that God gave you a commandment to enact, your enactment is recognition of his infinite knowledge.

Though if you were to mistakenly think that he's exited from action you're also recognizing this one fact - "G-d was telling us that He is involved in the affairs of man and has a profound interest in what we do" - Ramban ad loc., Sefer HaChinuch 25. Cf. Kazari 1:1, 2. So rootly in most basic terms the Sabbath is the recognition of God as the creator of all things.

Thus to disobey the Sabbath is to deny his providence, something worthy of death,

------

Why the punishment cannot be administered is simple. The last Sanhedrin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin#Dissolution) was dissolved around year 400. The Sanhedrin is the only court which can ordain a Rabbi properly, one who would be fit to administer punishments legally in Jewish law. Therefore no living man any long has jurisdiction to do punishments. They have rights to do marriages and divorces only because the documentation has been preserved. Judging is done on case to case basis, and therefore the Judge was to make decision as to whether or not the law was truly broken - we can't assume anyone living has that foresight.

It will not be until a Kingdom of Israel can reestablish a King, that will provide the neccessary authority to establish Sanhedrin that Judges can be appointed to carry out the laws. Not to mention there's another Jewish concept called "דִּינָא דְּמַלְכוּתָא דִּינָא" DINA DE-MALKHUTA DINA which roughly states that you must following the laws of the land in which you reside as long as it does not bring you do transgress a NEGATIVE commandment. The punishment of someone who transgresses the Sabbath is a positive one.

despite your vindictive sourcing

didn't mean anything by it. it was the first one that came up in google.

Thanks for your as always clear and comprehensive explanation.

Do you believe in the application of such a penalty?

Wouldn't it be unacceptable to most Jews today?

I think most Jews today are indoctrined with a Western mentality which has no system of punishments for your beliefs. Judaic law does believe people should be punished for believing in certain ideologies - that certain ideas are dangerous, and should be eliminated promptly. It also believes that doing so should be done with the upmost care, and death penalties were done very infrequently - ironically, less than Western society.

I personally believe that people who have certain philosophies should not be allowed to live, and that killing them for acting on their philosophies (no matter their apparent immediate impact) is acceptable. Which is why I've no apprehension to the idea of Sharia Laws being enacted, only disagreement to its laws. Most Jews who have similar philosophy when asked as to whether or not they would enact the laws if they could would respond roughly 'We would all most surely be dead at present'.

According to the Bible people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death.

I'll borrow the essence of my reply to that from LG. It gives me great pleasure to ask you to please define 'work'. For starters, the online dictionary has 13 meanings as a noun and 12 as a verb.

I think most Jews today are indoctrined with a Western mentality which has no system of punishments for your beliefs. Judaic law does believe people should be punished for believing in certain ideologies - that certain ideas are dangerous, and should be eliminated promptly. It also believes that doing so should be done with the upmost care, and death penalties were done very infrequently - ironically, less than Western society.

I personally believe that people who have certain philosophies should not be allowed to live, and that killing them for acting on their philosophies (no matter their apparent immediate impact) is acceptable. Which is why I've no apprehension to the idea of Sharia Laws being enacted, only disagreement to its laws. Most Jews who have similar philosophy when asked as to whether or not they would enact the laws if they could would respond roughly 'We would all most surely be dead at present'.

I disagree with all sharia laws that have no basis in the Qur'an, but I do agree that different societies have different needs as they develop and this is reflected in their legal systems. Most societies go through the same kind of cycles as they progress and regress and you can see this reflected in the social consensus that dominates.


I personally believe that people who have certain philosophies should not be allowed to live, and that killing them for acting on their philosophies (no matter their apparent immediate impact) is acceptable.

Thats one of the things I disagree with.

There's plenty of room for all philosophies.




I'll borrow the essence of my reply to that from LG. It gives me great pleasure to ask you to please define 'work'. For starters, the online dictionary has 13 meanings as a noun and 12 as a verb.

I was wondering if anyone would ever bring that up. Thats what I call an interesting loophole.:p

I was wondering if anyone would ever bring that up. Thats what I call an interesting loophole.:p

It's a genuine thread killer:D Can't even get rid of the more recent meanings just in case the word in the original verse is metaphorical. Giving birth is work, is it not?

It's a genuine thread killer:D Can't even get rid of the more recent meanings just in case the word in the original verse is metaphorical. Giving birth is work, is it not?

Technically even breathing is work, it uses ATP. :p

Technically even breathing is work, it uses ATP. :p

If the bible was a wicket then it has just been bowled. As I said, a real thread killer.

Not so much recent meanings but even if you were to take it literally or to mean doing labor for money(what I think it means here), then every other piece of scripture that's labelled as metaphoric is now suspect.

Jewish law has a presiding (and unchanging) prioritization of values.

The laws for what are considered "work" is derived from the building of the Tabernacle and carrying of the Tabernacle. It's done so because "work" is a poor translation. I think it's called a hekesh, the word used for "work" is used in places...and by seeing the different places its used you can determine it's proper definition. Thus "work" is defined by its use in the creation of the tabernacle. It appears in both places.

Is this what passes for "Intelligent conversation" around here now?

Yes. Yes it is.

If the bible was a wicket then it has just been bowled. As I said, a real thread killer.

Not so much recent meanings but even if you were to take it literally or to mean doing labor for money(what I think it means here), then every other piece of scripture that's labelled as metaphoric is now suspect.

But even if we were to redefine work in every generation the original query is still puzzling. Why would death be a punishment? Note that we are speaking of a time when death was commonplace and even noble. People discarded imperfect children or fed them to Moloch. The best warriors would consider martyrdom as the epoch of honour. Dying for the Lord should be positive, not negative.

Anyway, I see I will have to look at it a bit more. It doesn't gel with everything else going on at the time.


Jewish law has a presiding (and unchanging) prioritization of values.

The laws for what are considered "work" is derived from the building of the Tabernacle and carrying of the Tabernacle. It's done so because "work" is a poor translation. I think it's called a hekesh, the word used for "work" is used in places...and by seeing the different places its used you can determine it's proper definition. Thus "work" is defined by its use in the creation of the tabernacle. It appears in both places.

But I bet there are many commentaries on what "work" is, am I right?

But even if we were to redefine work in every generation the original query is still puzzling. Why would death be a punishment? Note that we are speaking of a time when death was commonplace and even noble. People discarded imperfect children or fed them to Moloch. The best warriors would consider martyrdom as the epoch of honour. Dying for the Lord should be positive, not negative.

Anyway, I see I will have to look at it a bit more. It doesn't gel with everything else going on at the time.

Sorry to sidetrack your discussions. LG has done it to me several times, I saw an opportunity, and the rest is history. Going golfing...bye

But I bet there are many commentaries on what "work" is, am I right?

All things considered work are derived from 39 principals.

1. Carrying
2. Burning
3. Extinguishing
4. Finishing
5. Writing
6. Erasing
7. Cooking
8. Washing
9. Sewing
10. Tearing
11. Knotting
12. Untying
13. Shaping
14. Plowing
15. Planting
16. Reaping
17. Harvesting
18. Threshing
19. Winnowing
20. Selecting
21. Sifting
22. Grinding
23. Kneading
24. Combing
25. Spinning
26. Dyeing
27. Chain-stitching
28. Warping
29. Weaving
30. Unraveling
31. Building
32. Demolishing
33. Trapping
34. Shearing
35. Slaughtering
36. Skinning
37. Tanning
38. Smoothing
39. Marking

All which were derived from the building of the Tabernacle in one way or another. The commentaries are simply explanations as to why that specific action is considered 'work'.

Who derived them? And why from the building of the Tabernacle? Whats the connection to the Sabbath?

Originally working 6 days a week and resting on the 7th was meant to be a good thing. This was brought about by the priest intending to prove a little help for those people doing the laborious tasks. The reason was if there wasn’t a day of rest then the people working in the fields would have been forced to work week after week without a day off. The laborers would have had to work day after day and never a day off.

The commandment to keep the Sabbath was intending to make the task masters keep the law. That law was informing the task masters that they would be put to death if they forced a laborer to work more than six days a week in the fields. Before the commandment was enacted some people were probably worked to death, actually. End of story.

Yes, but fear of what? Dying? But why would death cause fear?

No. Judaism does have its death-cult—in the anthropological context—and the redemptive dimension that has fueled Christianity emerged in the first century BCE, at the latest. But consider the periods of Jewish exile.

Aside from a basic, human fear of death, ancient Jews, like many peoples of prior eras, feared a basic formula in which the course of nature and society reflected God's favor or displeasure.

Plagues, invasions, natural disasters ... this sort of superstition most likely continues to this very day in some parts of the world. Huxley, in Jesting Pilate, wrote of seeing this old colonial cannon near a town in, I think, Malaysia. The metal was stained and corroded. It was near the road, and the site reasonably by the locals, some of whom held it in strange reverence. He observed, at one point, a young woman walk up to the cannon, climb onto it, and if she actually masturbated or whatever, Huxley wouldn't have said explicitly. As near as I can tell, she just spent some time straddling the barrel and rubbing herself against it. It's a local fertility ritual, apparently.

In a broader human context, how does humping a cannon bless you with divine fertility? How does sacrificing a bird at an altar bring God's blessing into your daily life?

In the (religious) beginning, people saw the supernatural in much, if not most or even all of life. There were gods for fire and rain, rivers and mountains. These were powerful symbols in early religious life. Over time, people refined their relationships with the various gods. By the time we get to Abramic monotheism, any number of formulae have been tried, and any number of results observed. IHVH developed in the context of everything else going on around the people and within their minds. God was relegated to this liminal space: not so near as the rocks or the rain, but neither so far as to be without consequence. The Greeks had achieved a curious monotheism with a God without consequence, but carried on a polytheistic mundane life; philosophically, the Jews had developed along a different course with different values assigned the variables. What they came up with was an intrusive monotheism that consolidated certain polytheistic notions into a single, all-powerful idea. But it was still involved—unlike the Aristotelean Unmoved Mover—with daily life.

And here we see the nexus point for fear. God doesn't have to kill you to let you know He's displeased. He can just, oh, I don't know, destroy your crops, kill your livestock, murder your family, and set a miserable disease upon you. And on a bet at that.

Then again, Job was the most faithful and reverent. Perhaps there is a lesson there, as well.

Originally working 6 days a week and resting on the 7th was meant to be a good thing. This was brought about by the priest intending to prove a little help for those people doing the laborious tasks. The reason was if there wasn’t a day of rest then the people working in the fields would have been forced to work week after week without a day off. The laborers would have had to work day after day and never a day off.

The commandment to keep the Sabbath was intending to make the task masters keep the law. That law was informing the task masters that they would be put to death if they forced a laborer to work more than six days a week in the fields. Before the commandment was enacted some people were probably worked to death, actually. End of story.

That makes sense. And I can see how it would be useful too.

Whats it based on?


God doesn't have to kill you to let you know He's displeased. He can just, oh, I don't know, destroy your crops, kill your livestock, murder your family, and set a miserable disease upon you. And on a bet at that.

Then again, Job was the most faithful and reverent. Perhaps there is a lesson there, as well.

The vagaries of blind faith?

That makes sense. And I can see how it would be useful too.

Whats it based on?

Common sense and the realization of the lack of compassion the task masters would have had during that time. The task master didn’t have any guide other then to get the work done. They were instructed not to muzzle the ox when threshing too. Another sign of compassion for an animal the task masters wouldn’t have had.

Who derived them? And why from the building of the Tabernacle? Whats the connection to the Sabbath?

The connection I stated a hekesh. The word basically means this. Let's say the word X is used 4 times in the Torah, each time in a different context. To acquire a definition of the word you must make it have the same properties in every instance without making word Y (another word in the same sentence as X) go against its definition it its other instances. And so on until every word perfectly is defined without conflict.

In this case, the Word-X was used in building the Tabernacle, as "And work was done on the Tabernacle...(then what work was done is explained)". Then later in the Torah it says "You shall not do work." So every thing action that had to be done directly to the Tabernacle for its construction is prohibited to do on the Sabbath.


And "Earth" seems to be making things up with no background, a common thread amongst Christian theologists.

Thats an interesting way of looking at it. Who derived this?

I personally believe that people who have certain philosophies should not be allowed to live, and that killing them for acting on their philosophies (no matter their apparent immediate impact) is acceptable.

This statement by you is not just a belief it is a judgement.
This one is coming back to you just as you pronounced it.

He said acting upon some philosophies, which I missed on first reading; I'd be more interested in knowing what they were but it would be contradictory to assert that everyone can hold and act on a philosophy and then condemn him for doing so.

He said acting upon some philosophies, which I missed on first reading; I'd be more interested in knowing what they were but it would be contradictory to assert that everyone can hold and act on a philosophy and then condemn him for doing so.

He judged himself and no one else. He found his judgement acceptable, too.

Doesn't the Bible say somewhere that it's ok to stone kids to death?

This statement by you is not just a belief it is a judgement.
This one is coming back to you just as you pronounced it.

Then please, proceed with haste in your attempt. If you disagree with the philosophy, you disagree with God.
Exodus: 17:16
וַיֹּאמֶר, כִּי-יָד עַל-כֵּס יָהּ, מִלְחָמָה לַהי, בַּעֲמָלֵק--מִדֹּר, דֹּר.
And he said: 'The hand upon the throne of the LORD: the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.'

and again in Deuteronomy 25:17-19
זָכוֹר, אֵת אֲשֶׁר-עָשָׂה לְךָ עֲמָלֵק, בַּדֶּרֶךְ, בְּצֵאתְכֶם מִמִּצְרָיִם.
אֲשֶׁר קָרְךָ בַּדֶּרֶךְ, וַיְזַנֵּב בְּךָ כָּל-הַנֶּחֱשָׁלִים אַחֲרֶיךָ--וְאַתָּה, עָיֵף וְיָגֵעַ; וְלֹא יָרֵא, אֱלקִָים.
וְהָיָה בְּהָנִיחַ הי אֱלֹהֶיךָ לְךָ מִכָּל-אֹיְבֶיךָ מִסָּבִיב, בָּאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר הי-אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לְךָ נַחֲלָה לְרִשְׁתָּהּ--תִּמְחֶה אֶת-זֵכֶר עֲמָלֵק, מִתַּחַת הַשָּׁמָיִם; לֹא, תִּשְׁכָּח.
Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way as ye came forth out of Egypt;
how he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, all that were enfeebled in thy rear, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.
Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget. {P}

It seems rather specific to me...


Thats an interesting way of looking at it. Who derived this?
There's no other way to derive law from the Torah. The Talmud lists the rules were given to the Great Assembly from Samson, and to Samson from Joshua, and Joshua from Moses, and moses from God.

Thanks, Cheski, for the discussion.

.......

Who are you to judge anybody because of their Philosophy? Thou shalt not judge, period.

Thanks, Cheski, for the discussion.
It's been most congenial.


Who are you to judge anybody because of their Philosophy? Thou shalt not judge, period.

I'm not Christian, and I didn't judge anyone on their philosophy. Those philosophies which are prohibited are listed not by me, but by the first 5 books. If you disagree with them, throw your first 5 books away...and all the prophets and Old Testament that follow if you wish...being that they're BASED on the first 5.

In fact I think you should if you disagree with them, and your book bag would be much lighter as well.

CheskiChips,
You can't weasel or deny or lie.

The question posed in the OP is answered clearly in Matthew 12. Jesus presents a number of arguments for why he believes it is acceptable to do some work on the Sabbath.

The vagaries of blind faith?

We call it blind faith now, because we think we know better. And in many things, we actually do.

I would go with blind or superstitious fear. Pascal's Wager long before anyone (e.g., Pascal) figured out the formulation.

It is hard to devise a useful analogy here because it's such a broad and complex phenomenon.

I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I have very great reason for that faith. Indeed, it transcends faith, and nearly becomes knowledge. There are two reasons the sun might not rise tomorrow:


(1) The sun will rise tomorrow, except some disaster will kill me today, so I won't see it.
(2) At some point later today, or early tomorrow morning, all physical law in the Universe will somehow deviate, causing the sun to randomly explode, or the Universe to end, or whatever.

One can say that my "faith" in the astronomers and physicists and mathematicians is mere faith, to be certain. But I'm .... certain ... that if there was so glaring an error in the theory, we would be seeing more and greater deviations in the results than we do.

But even if one insists on calling the physics of the sun a matter of faith, it is still a far cry to spending my life trying to please God in order to make sure He causes the sun to rise tomorrow. In fact, it is such a leap that I cannot measure the difference. I can't tell you how those people felt in millennia past. And that's where we get hung up trying to describe the fear that inspired old religious traditions.

In pre-history, someone figured out how to contain fire. There's a Monster Magnet lyric that goes, "Place the stones in a circle of twelve", and while the song is generally unrelated to Agni, as such, try to put yourself back at the roots of mystical thought. You see the volcano, or the lightning strike that brings a forest fire. How do you describe this? Yet at some point a brave Prometheus captures the fire. I'm thinking there had to be some informal experimentation. Maybe a couple camps burned down, a few people destroyed by a fire out of control. Now, in the present day, I'm pretty sure you could find a few physicists who could describe to you very nearly, if not all the way to, the particle processes involved in fire. And, remembering that as science emerged and its definitions refined, one definition of "life" we've left behind was vague enough to include fire as a living thing.

So in pre-history, you teach the child to place the stones in a circle. Why? How do you explain containing fire? Maybe it's an instinctive notion the first times it happens. Maybe it's the result of observation. The fire doesn't cross the stones. Perhaps the circle of twelve, or however-many stones, becomes institutionalized because that was how the clan or tribe built the fire pits for a couple of generations. But what emerged, at some point, was the idea of a capricious fire god that can be appeased, communicated with, appealed to, and that can destroy you.

Set that at one end of the spectrum.

At the other end, perhaps atheism. Or, if we wish to be metaphysical, a panentheistic variation in which God exists without consequence—e.g., "God is." History has witnessed a transformation of superstitions and gods that is only striking if we do not apply basic psychological principles in our analysis. The relationship between the divine and mundane has been a decaying balance: we move God farther away from us while seeking to maintain Its intrusion and influence in our lives. We may have reached a turning point for our current (e.g., Abramic) formula, as the godhead's influence wanes in our outlook.

Still, though, where on that spectrum, and where in time and space, did the idea you consider originate? I couldn't put those people on the couch even if I was a proper psychologist because they're dead. But some extrapolation would be possible as such so that we might have some idea of how any particular expression of God emerged.

Doesn't the Bible say somewhere that it's ok to stone kids to death?

It also says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

That would be Mrs. Garribaldi from my 6th grade class. I know she was without sin because she told us one day. And can you say the same? Sadly, we could not.

Ergo, Mrs. Garribaldi is a professional stoner.

But don't tell her I said that.

What is there reasoning behind this statement?

YWHA has always been a jackass about these things.



*YHWA in his whinny bitch voice*
"Worship me, Worship me. I'm the only One God. Me Me Me ME ME ME ME..."

*Satan*
"I can NOT take YOUR whinny shit any longer, I'm going down to live with the humans"

*Satan leaves slamming the cloud*

*YHWA*
"Oh, he likes his HUMAN'S huh, I'll show those fuckers a world of pain. Rule One. No working on Sabbath. Rule Two: .....

*Xenu*
"Well, it's getting late and I got to be getting back to Alpha Century - you know, Intergalactic Warlording stuff. Well, I had a lovely time. Please tell Satan I said hello and maybe I'll get time off work say in 2050ish? Bye...*

*Xenu prepares to leave*

*All the Angels*
"Hey, ah, Xenu, got any room in your DC Liner for us? Maybe a drop off over to Beta-Cenery-A5Y?

*Everyone leave the stage except YHWA*


*YWHA looks down on Earth, at Satan having fun with the Human Eve: her nice apple arse, her round firm bosom, smooth tan skin...*

*YWHA's eyes glow red.. alone he whispers to himself*

"Rule 37, No eating of the Tree of Live"

*YWHA smiles, his eyes glow brighter as he licks his lips....*


Like I said, YWHA has always been a little bitch. The Gods actually came back in the year 3067 and rescued the last of humanity from the evil YHWA ...and irony of ironies, put HIM in the eternal lake of fire. Yeah, they had to go back in time and rescue every single human that YWHA tortured to death. It was a logistical nightmare with the space-time continuum and all. ... ..

Inspite of this?
“
Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.
I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.
”
PR trumps the Lord? If you reread, note that the Jesus who said "the Sabbath was made for man" is the Lord, in the eyes of Christian believers.

Otherwise, I have to agree (reluctantly) with Muersalt - the Christians grew up. Somewhat. Others can do the same. Idolatries can die - even those involving books.

If there is a hell in existence, in reality, can anyone tell me where it is?

Sam,
iceaura’s post stating, Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for man" fits in very nicely with my common sense explanation that the Sabbath was invoked to give laborers a day off from those, thinking there is more work to do, task masters.

Book says in the morning Mary in one story and Peter in another account went to the tomb and found it open and Jesus was not in it. That would mean sunday morning. Verse please to establish your version.

I guess this is the verse you are refering to.

John 20
1 Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb

Ok now refer back to the statement i made and to which you agreed with was correct. That the sabbath day is from friday sunset to saturday sunset. Ok you still right with that?

No when does the first day of the week start in Bible days?

Sunday morning? NO

The first day of the week starts at sunset Saturday night. So with this you can see that Mary visited the tomb of Jesus and found the rock removed. thats why it says it was still Dark of cource it would be dark. And the referance to early in the day, that also sits well because early in the biblical day is just after sunset in the evening.

She could not go to the tomb and tend to his body beforhand because she could not do any work on the sabbath. So the first opportunity she got. Saturday just after sunset she runs of to the tomb.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Re: YWHA

Can I just make the point for the record that the proper tetragrammaton for God is either YHWH, YHVH, or IHVH?

If there is a hell in existence, in reality, can anyone tell me where it is?

Don't think anyone can. God might show you in the future.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Sam,
iceaura’s post stating, Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for man" fits in very nicely with my common sense explanation that the Sabbath was invoked to give laborers a day off from those, thinking there is more work to do, task masters.

If Jesus says, the Sabbath was made for man, is this not an endorsement of it?

If Jesus says, the Sabbath was made for man, is this not an endorsement of it?

Possibly the Sabbath is a protection for man from slave drivers.

Hmm well it doesn't work in graduate school :p

Don't think anyone can. God might show you in the future.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Are you threatening me in the name of your God, sure looks like it to me, through insinuation. Your God is going to show you, actually.

The only hell that is factual is in the center of our solar system.

You have saturated your mind with the words of a fool and “it” has made a fool out of you.

Hmm well it doesn't work in graduate school :p

Forget the Sabbath as way to get rid of people by thinking this should be a way for those people's God to kill them.

The Sabbath is irrelevant these days and the first part of Acts 15th chapter explains why.

Forget the Sabbath as way to get rid of people by thinking this should be a way for those people's God to kill them.

The Sabbath is irrelevant these days and the first part of Acts 15th chapter explains why.

Not to me it doesn't. I don't see how Peter and Paul "deciding" what the gentiles should do is more valid than God saying the Sabbath must be followed and Jesus endorsing it.

It like having the CEO send an order and the Vice President of the company endorsing him and then your manager tells you he's got the authority to tell you that you need not do it cos he's in charge of your division. I haven't heard any reasoning behind why they decided the Sabbath is not necessary, except that they want to make it easy. Make what easy? Following God?

Say what?

Not to me it doesn't. I don't see how Peter and Paul "deciding" what the gentiles should do is more valid than God saying the Sabbath must be followed and Jesus endorsing it.

It like having the CEO send an order and the Vice President of the company endorsing him and then your manager tells you he's got the authority to tell you that you need not do it cos he's in charge of your division. I haven't heard any reasoning behind why they decided the Sabbath is not necessary, except that they want to make it easy. Make what easy? Following God?

Say what?

Never fails, now your going to tell God what to do and how to think.

Never fails, now your going to tell God what to do and how to think.

Is that how you see it? I see it more like not confusing the middle man for the real deal.

Adstar,

earth - Matthew 28
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

Adstar - John 20
1 Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

Adstar - Ok now refer back to the statement i made and to which you agreed with was correct. That the sabbath day is from friday sunset to saturday sunset. Ok you still right with that?

Adstar - The first day of the week starts at sunset Saturday night. So with this you can see that Mary visited the tomb of Jesus and found the rock removed. thats why it says it was still Dark of cource it would be dark. And the referance to early in the day, that also sits well because early in the biblical day is just after sunset in the evening.

earth - Well, we can see Matthew 28:1 says, "Mary went to the tomb at dawn" and John 20:1 says "Mary went to the tomb early". The story teller would have been in good standing if he hadn‘t said anymore leaving it at (John 20:1) “went to the tomb early“. But he adds the words “while it was still dark” thereby screwing up and revealing a supernatural guide was not guiding the penman’s hand. Instead a story teller’s version repeating a story telling by writing it down in the gospel of John. I’ll show you why the gospel of John is nothing more than a repetition of story telling and not inspired by the holy spirit.

Adstar - The first day of the week starts at sunset Saturday night. So with this you can see that Mary visited the tomb of Jesus and found the rock removed. thats why it says it was still Dark of cource it would be dark. And the referance to early in the day, that also sits well because early in the biblical day is just after sunset in the evening.

earth - We have a question which version is correct, Matthew or John? Did Mary go to the tomb of Jesus when it was dark as written in John or at dawn as written in Matthew? You said “dark” and then built your hypothesis on that mistake. I’ll show you why it’s a mistake.

Jesus made a prediction he would rise on the third day.
Mark 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise
Mark 10:34
"They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again."
Luke 18:33
and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again."

Ok now refer back to the statement you made and to which I agreed with was correct. That the sabbath day is from friday sunset to saturday sunset.
Notice they understand a day correctly when keeping the Sabbath which is 24 hours.
Friday sunset to saturday sunset is one day.
Saturday sunset to Sunday sunset is two day.
Well, if we go with Sunday morning at dawn that isn’t three days and not keeping with Jesus prediction of him rising on the third day. Friday evening from the 6th hour until Sunday at dawn is not dead for three days. Jesus needs to be dead for three days to be in keeping with his prediction of rising on the third day. Notice they can understand a day correctly when keeping the Sabbath. The way peddlers of religion explain it is, Friday is one day, Saturday is two days and Sunday is the third day thereby we can calculate Sunday would make the third day. Here we find the gospel of John account saying, "Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark" as incorrect, and doesn't square with the peddlers of religion explanation or the account in the gospel of Matthew and your mistake. The problem with the peddlers explanation is Jesus should have been “dead” three days to be in keeping with his prediction. Using the peddlers explanation we have him “alive” part of those three days an not "dead". From Friday dawn including the time while he was on the cross until the 6th hour and then Sunday from dawn to the 6th hour Jesus wasn't dead.

Continuing with Sunday sunset to Monday sunset we have three days total. Notice they can understand a day when keeping the Sabbath. Jesus shouldn’t be up walking around until Monday the 6th hour to be in keeping with his prediction of rising on the third day. He could have risen anytime during the third day which would have been Monday the 6th hour to Tuesday the 6th hour. We have a bunch of story tellers fudging the numbers trying to stay within Jesus prediction of rising on the third day.

Adstar - She could not go to the tomb and tend to his body beforhand because she could not do any work on the sabbath. So the first opportunity she got. Saturday just after sunset she runs of to the tomb.

earth - By saying "she" I understand you meant Mary. Mary went to the tomb Sunday at sunrise to anoint Jesus body and wasn’t expecting to find Jesus tomb empty, because it wasn’t three days yet and she knew it. Surprise Jesus body wasn’t there! Did Jesus rise on the third day? What happened to his body then? Did someone steal it? There was guards placed at the tomb to prevent somebody from stealing supposedly.
Matthew 27:63-65 (New International Version)
63"Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' 64So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."
65"Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how."

Looks like someone got to Jesus body and stole it before he had a chance to fulfill his prediction of rising on the third day. Most likely the guards Pilate authorized to be placed at the tomb were bribed.
Matthew 28
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
Matthew is the only account mentioning the guards at all. Now the gospel of Matthew is in question because Jesus wasn’t suppose to be up and walking around until the third day which would have been Monday the 6th hour to Tuesday the 6th hour. The sabbath day is from friday sunset to saturday sunset.
Notice they understand a day correctly when keeping the Sabbath which is 24 hours. Jesus prediction of rising from the dead on the third day (dead for 3 days) came up short and someone stole his body beforehand. Or Jesus wasn’t actually dead when his body was placed in the tomb.

Christian: 'The Lord is risen!'
Jew: 'No, his disciples stole away his body.'
Christian: 'The guard at the tomb would have prevented any such theft.'
Jew: 'No, his disciples stole away his body while the guard slept.'
Christian: 'The chief priests bribed the guard to say this.'

Is that how you see it? I see it more like not confusing the middle man for the real deal.

Do you think Jehovah is God or the devil? I know you think Allah is God.

If there is a hell in existence, in reality, can anyone tell me where it is?Detroit.

Detroit.

Just down the road

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan

Does anyone think post #115 has made an end to resurrection city in Christendom? "IT" seems to be at least suspect. :cool:

Detroit.

Notice there are ways to draw response. :)

Just down the road

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan

You two, notice there are ways to draw response. :)

Moderation in religion has nothing underwriting it but the "unacknowledged neglect of the letter of devine law". The only reason anyone is 'moderate' in matters of faith these days is that he has assimilated some of the fruits of the last two thousand years of human thought (democratic politics, scientific advancement on every front, concern for human rights, and end to cultural and geographic isolations, etc.).

Sam Harris, The End of Faith

So when was the practice rescinded
When it became untenable to continue it, i.e. probably after the Romans sacked Jerusalem and the Jews had to abandon their traditional jurisprudence.


and why? Why are people no longer put to death for breaking the Sabbath?
The easy reason would be, because it was a retarded punishment.
The long reason involves the Jewish diaspora and the rise of anti-Semitic feeling in late Roman Christianity, which restricted the rights of Jews. First off, the Roman occupation of Judea and sack of Jerusalem in the late first century CE saw the end of an agreement between the Roman governors and the Jewish law courts to respect each others' rules and punishments, e.g. Rome would turn a blind eye to stoning adulterers, and the Jewish courts would turn in rebellious Jews to the Roman authorities. However, the Romans annexed the region and ended the agreement, and imposed Roman law entirely.

Many Jews fled and scattered across the Roman world, and some into Sarmatia and Arabia. When Christianity rose to prominence after the time of Constantine, laws were put in place that restricted to rights of Jews in the Empire, which became particularly harsh under Theodosius, who imposed Christianity as the Roman state religion. These laws further restricted their ability to have and utilise traditional Jewish courts. Come the Middle Ages, they became second-class citizens and were bereft of rights entirely.
By the time of Jewish Emancipation in Europe, attitudes towards human rights had changed in a huge way. Jews were allowed to have private courts separate from the main judicial system, and certain punishments were abandoned in practice. Either because of legal prohibitions against murder or because it had become seen as unethical.

So now that "the Sanhedrin" are back in Israel, will they reinstitute the punishment?

Probably not. Israel is a Western nation and follows Western ideas on human rights (mostly). They don't want to go looking like Saudi Arabia, now, do they?

PS) while I usually respect someone for practicing what they preach and following their claimed religion, etc...there are times when I respect someone even more for knowing that the world has changed and some parts of their religion are less relevant than other parts. This is one of those times. :D

"The Lord" is a fictitious being, is why. All three of these religions have their basis on the same ancient Sumerian superstitions. :cool:

I haven't heard any reasoning behind why they decided the Sabbath is not necessary, They? Different sects, different peoples, different times and reasons - mostly piecemeal, erosion rather than rejection.

Is that how you see it? I see it more like not confusing the middle man for the real deal. The entire scene is a play of middle men - including the Bible itself.

The "real deal" is not involved.

They? Different sects, different peoples, different times and reasons - mostly piecemeal, erosion rather than rejection.
The entire scene is a play of middle men - including the Bible itself.

The "real deal" is not involved.

They referring here to Peter and Paul

They referring here to Peter and Paul Well, "they" didn't decide the Sabbath was not necessary.

According to Acts 15 as I read it, apparently they decided what was and omitted the Sabbath.

Or is there another verse that I should be reading?

According to Acts 15 as I read it, apparently they decided what was and omitted the Sabbath. And yet among their followers the Sabbath remained.

Like who?

Originally Posted by SAM
According to Acts 15 as I read it, apparently they decided what was and omitted the Sabbath.


Originally Posted by iceaura
And yet among their followers the Sabbath remained.


Originally Posted by SAM
Like who?

iceaura, you’re right about that one. Peter and Paul were raised as Pharisees from time they were children. That viewpoint didn’t go away.

In this day and age I think we need to kill those who work on the sabbath even more than in the past. What better way to cull the religious herd than taking out their priests and what not?

Of course it will have to be sport hunting.

Adstar,

earth - Matthew 28
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

Adstar - John 20
1 Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

Adstar - Ok now refer back to the statement i made and to which you agreed with was correct. That the sabbath day is from friday sunset to saturday sunset. Ok you still right with that?

Adstar - The first day of the week starts at sunset Saturday night. So with this you can see that Mary visited the tomb of Jesus and found the rock removed. thats why it says it was still Dark of cource it would be dark. And the referance to early in the day, that also sits well because early in the biblical day is just after sunset in the evening.

earth - Well, we can see Matthew 28:1 says, "Mary went to the tomb at dawn" and John 20:1 says "Mary went to the tomb early". The story teller would have been in good standing if he hadn‘t said anymore leaving it at (John 20:1) “went to the tomb early“. But he adds the words “while it was still dark” thereby screwing up and revealing a supernatural guide was not guiding the penman’s hand. Instead a story teller’s version repeating a story telling by writing it down in the gospel of John. I’ll show you why the gospel of John is nothing more than a repetition of story telling and not inspired by the holy spirit.

Adstar - The first day of the week starts at sunset Saturday night. So with this you can see that Mary visited the tomb of Jesus and found the rock removed. thats why it says it was still Dark of course it would be dark. And the reference to early in the day, that also sits well because early in the biblical day is just after sunset in the evening.

earth - We have a question which version is correct, Matthew or John? Did Mary go to the tomb of Jesus when it was dark as written in John or at dawn as written in Matthew?

LOL You take Dawn to mean at sunrise. But dawn of the day means start of the day. And early in the day means the start of the day. We use the term now when we refer to the dawn of the space race or the dawn of an age.

See there is absolutely no contradiction between the two because Dawn of the day means the beginning of the day. Early in the day means the beginning of the day and the beginning of the day in the bible is at sunset. They went to the tomb just after the Sabbath as soon as the sun went down and discovered the rock had been moved, while is it still dark :D




Jesus made a prediction he would rise on the third day.
Mark 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise
Mark 10:34
"They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again."
Luke 18:33
and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again."

Ok now refer back to the statement you made and to which I agreed with was correct. That the sabbath day is from friday sunset to saturday sunset.
Notice they understand a day correctly when keeping the Sabbath which is 24 hours.
Friday sunset to saturday sunset is one day.
Saturday sunset to Sunday sunset is two day.
Well, if we go with Sunday morning at dawn that isn’t three days and not keeping with Jesus prediction of him rising on the third day.

Jesus never rose on the first day of the week. The scriptures do not say He did. When Mary when to the tomb ( just after sunset Saturday night) she discovered the rock had ALREADY been rolled away. That verse is not saying when Jesus was resurrected. It only states that Mary visited the tomb and found Jesus was not there.




Friday evening from the 6th hour until Sunday at dawn is not dead for three days. Jesus needs to be dead for three days to be in keeping with his prediction of rising on the third day. Notice they can understand a day correctly when keeping the Sabbath. The way peddlers of religion explain it is, Friday is one day, Saturday is two days and Sunday is the third day thereby we can calculate Sunday would make the third day.

The Bible does not state it that way. You have bought into the traditions of men ( catholic ones at that) Jesus was not executed on Friday He was executed on Wednesday and his body was placed in the earth before sunset because the next day was a high Sabbath. No not a weekly Sabbath but a special Sabbath.

John 19
31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

They celebrated the feast of unleavened bread during the week Jesus was executed. That was called a High Sabbath. Read about the Sabbaths in Lev 23

leviticus 23
1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.

((( Next verse here is the normal weekly Sabbath)))

3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

((( Now it goes on to describe the other special Sabbaths that the Jews where also to observe)))

4 ‘These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the LORD’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.

((( that means the day after the Passover was a Sabbath a holy convocation where no customary work was to be done Just like the weekly Sabbath)))

They wanted Jesus dead and buried before the start of the Sabbath, Not the Weekly Sabbath but the Sabbath of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that’s why that guard stabbed Jesus in his side.

If you want to read on in Leviticus 9 you will find more non weekly Sabbaths detailed they are:

The Feast of Firstfruits
The Feast of Weeks
The Feast of Trumpets
The Day of Atonement
The Feast of Tabernacles

non of these Sabbaths are linked to days of the week they are all linked to dates in the Jewish Calender.



Here we find the gospel of John account saying, "Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark" as incorrect, and doesn't square with the peddlers of religion explanation or the account in the gospel of Matthew and your mistake.

No mistake here. :D



The problem with the peddlers explanation is Jesus should have been “dead” three days to be in keeping with his prediction. Using the peddlers explanation we have him “alive” part of those three days an not "dead". From Friday dawn including the time while he was on the cross until the 6th hour and then Sunday from dawn to the 6th hour Jesus wasn't dead.

Jesus was in the earth 3 days and 3 nights. Just as the scriptures state.

I have not bothered with the next few points you made because they where all based on your firm but faulty belief that Jesus was executed on Friday.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Does anyone think post #115 has made an end to resurrection city in Christendom? "IT" seems to be at least suspect. :cool:

:D You have only used a strawman built for you by the traditions of men. Set up to be knocked down.

But you can never destroy the real Body of Christ.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

According to Acts 15 as I read it, apparently they decided what was and omitted the Sabbath. I doubt you are thinking of Acts 15, btw.

But there's little real point in discussing Biblical (or Quranic) stories or declarations as events in history. When and among whom and how was the Sabbath actually observed, when and among whom and how did it radically change or cease being observed - you can't get reliable answers to such questions from the Bible.

So now that "the Sanhedrin" are back in Israel, will they reinstitute the punishment?

Of course!

I was stabbed the other day just for blinking after the Sabbath. A handful of lawyers watched in horror, then scattered in all directions, their liberal inclinations dashed by the force of religious predestination.

*********

Of course!

I was stabbed the other day just for blinking after the Sabbath. A handful of lawyers watched in horror, then scattered in all directions, their liberal inclinations dashed by the force of religious predestination.

Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn5mrHS08hw

or this?


Axe-wielding ultra-Orthodox Jews went on a rampage in a Jerusalem neighbourhood, wounding a Palestinian taxi driver, destroying his vehicle and setting dumpsters on fire, police and witnesses said on Wednesday.

The violence took place overnight in Mea Sharim, a bastion of ultra-Orthodox Jews, known as Haredis.

Police "pulled out from the neighbourhood following violent riots in recent days," said spokesman Shmulik Ben Rubi.

Israeli media said several dozen young Haredis attacked a Palestinian driver and destroyed his vehicle with axes. Police said the man was lightly wounded.

"It was a lynching attempt," a witness who identified himself as a Haredi told radio, expressing outrage over the violence which he said he saw from his Mea Sharim apartment.

"The taxi driver could have been killed if he hadn't fled as an ambulance arrived."

Rubi said police opened an investigation even though the driver had not filed a claim so far.

He said police could not intervene in time as access roads to Mea Sharim were barricaded by Haredis following earlier rioting.

On Sunday night, eight police officers were injured during a Haredi riot in which hundreds of people took part.

Protests first erupted 10 weeks ago after a decision by secular Mayor Nir Barkat to open a car park on the Jewish sabbath, the Jew's holy day of rest that runs from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h7RLUyHxQ4tla-w39UbgTpyJM2GQ

Adstar
John 20
1 Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb

Ok now refer back to the statement i made and to which you agreed with was correct. That the sabbath day is from friday sunset to saturday sunset. Ok you still right with that?

The first day of the week starts at sunset Saturday night. So with this you can see that Mary visited the tomb of Jesus and found the rock removed. thats why it says it was still Dark of cource it would be dark. And the referance to early in the day, that also sits well because early in the biblical day is just after sunset in the evening.

She could not go to the tomb and tend to his body beforhand because she could not do any work on the sabbath. So the first opportunity she got. Saturday just after sunset she runs of to the tomb.




Adstar,
LOL You take Dawn to mean at sunrise. But dawn of the day means start of the day. And early in the day means the start of the day. We use the term now when we refer to the dawn of the space race or the dawn of an age.


Your "at dark" part of the verse your using for your argument doesn't make since and is an add-in after the original. The original was a "dawn" (mark 8:31) or in other words "daylight," and not dark. Mark is the oldest gospel of the four. Then after Mark along came John, it being the newer. Read this post half a dozen times and maybe it can somehow get past all the trash. Instead you don't have Jesus rising on the third day as a Worthy Credible story, instead, you have a 1 day "offering". Get lost you. Understand the word "offering" in context with the expression "Lamb as an offering". It seems when dealing with God and making an 'offering", one wouldn't try an "Underworthy" swindle. I'm speaking directly about the 3 day promise and the 1 day fact and the 2 day swindle. Not only do you support a swindle, you weasel too.

You have forgetten at the same time you're counting time. There is prediction by Jesus to be fulfilled, wherein, he is 3 days dead (Mark 8:31). We agree the sabbath day is from friday sunset to saturday sunset and within context of the meaning no more daylight. Notice they understand "a day" back then, by correctly numbering "a day", by keeping the Sabbath which is "one eveing to the next evening" in other words 24 hours. They can keep time well enough the know the meaning of "a day = 24 hours".

Here it is since I have to spell it out for you. You said on saturday night at dark Mary went to the tomb. That amount of time is only one day, from friday evening to saturday evening. Just before the start of the sabbath friday evening until saturday evening just after dark doesn't total to 3 days. According to the bible Jesus said he would be dead for three days, (mark 8:31.) You only calculated 1 day thus far. So Jesus missed his prediction of rising again on the third day, thereby disproving the fabricated lie wherein "He has risen". No complete fulfillment of his words to rise on the third day instead a coverup. Are you going to tell me now, that Jesus was raised early? And at the same time falsely claim his prophecy was completely fulfilled and didn't swindle your God?

Mark 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise
According to this verse you are in need of three days to credibly validate Jesus proprophecy of rising on the third day. You are missing 2 days in that failed prediction of rising on the third day. Friday evening to Saturday evening is only 1 day and not 3 days. Must have slipped your mind, since you said saturday evening Mary went to the tomb and when finding it empty went and told Peter. Those people back then understood that “a day” equaled “24 hours,” just as it is to us these days. That’s because it was their custom to keep the Sabbath once a week. They stayed home Friday evening to Saturday evening. This practice enabled those people back then to understand the meaning of a day which is 24 hours or in other words, one evening to the next evening is our understanding of 24 hours. So when you see it written in the bible referencing “a day,” understand that means 24 hours to us.


Matthew 28
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

I use a Dictionary.
dawn (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dawn?o=101753&qsrc=2871&l=dir): 1. the first appearance of daylight in the morning:

In context the meaning of the phrase was in the morning Mary got up and went at daylight.
There would be reasons for this and one is, no street lights.
You twist just like a peddler.

Daylight (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/daylight?o=101753) is dawn.
4. daybreak; dawn.

Sunrise: (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Sunrise?o=101753)
1. the rise or ascent of the sun above the horizon in the morning.
2. the atmospheric and scenic phenomena accompanying this.
3. the time when half the sun has risen above the horizon.
4. the open or beginning stage of any period.

Edit add: Notice "dawn" or "at dark" isn't listed in the dictionary definition of "sunrise" and not found in the biblical verses cited. You picked the word "sunrise" out of thin air. A twisting tool is "sunrise".

Your "at dark" part of the verse your using for your argument doesn't make since and is an add-in after the original. The original was a "dawn" (mark 8:31) or in other words "daylight," and not dark. Mark is the oldest gospel of the four. Read this post half a dozen times and maybe it can somehow get past all the trash. Instead you don't have Jesus rising on the third day as a Worthy Credible story, instead, you have a 1 day "offering". Get lost you. Understand the word "offering" in context with the expression "Lamb as an offering". It seems when dealing with God and making an 'offering", one wouldn't try an "Underworthy" swindle. I'm speaking directly about the 3 day promise and the 1 day fact and the 2 day swindle. Not only do you support a swindle, you weasel too.

You have forgetten at the same time you're counting time. There is prediction by Jesus to be fulfilled, wherein, he is 3 days dead (Mark 8:31). We agree the sabbath day is from friday sunset to saturday sunset and in context meaning no more daylight. Notice they understand "a day" back then, by correctly numbering "a day", by keeping the Sabbath which is "one eveing to the next evening" in other words 24 hours. They can keep time well enough the know the meaning of "a day".

Here it is since I have to spell it out for you. You said on saturday night at dark Mary went to the tomb. That amount of time is only one day, from friday evening to saturday evening. Just before the start of the sabbath friday evening until saturday evening just after dark doesn't total to 3 days.

You have not even read my whole post have you.

Jesus was not executed on Friday He was executed on Wednesday before sunset. He was in the earth from Wednesday night till the Sabbath So Wednesday, Thursday and Friday he rose on Saturday the Sabbath. Mary went to the tomb Saturday night just after the Sabbath was over and the rock was gone Jesus was already risen.



According to the bible Jesus said he would be dead for three days, (mark 8:31.) You only calculated 1 day thus far. So Jesus missed his prediction of rising again on the third day, thereby disproving the fabricated lie where in "He has risen". No complete fulfillment of his words to rise on the third day instead a coverup. Are you going to tell me now, that Jesus was raised early? And at the same time claim his prophecy was completely fulfilled and didn't swindle your God?

No i am going to tell you to go back and read my post properly and then you may learn something. Instead of being ultra determined to put forward a point that is now defunct. I do not support a Friday crucifixion or a Sunday resurrection.


Mark 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise
According to this verse you are in need of three days to credibly validate Jesus proprophecy of rising on the third day. You are missing 2 days in that failed prediction of rising on the third day. Friday evening to Saturday evening is only 1 day and not 3 days.

LOL yeah i know. How many times do i have to state my position before you read it?????????

Jesus was crucified on Wednesday and was resurrected on Saturday :D




Must have slipped your mind, since you said saturday evening Mary went to the tomb and when finding it empty went and told Peter. Those people back then understood that “a day” equaled “24 hours,” just as it is to us these days. That’s because it was their custom to keep the Sabbath once a week. They stayed home Friday evening to Saturday evening. This practice enabled those people back then to understand the meaning of a day which is 24 hours or in other words, one evening to the next evening is our understanding of 24 hours. So when you see it written in the bible referencing “a day,” understand that means 24 hours to us.

Blabb blabb babb, again and again and again.

YES I KNOW A DAY IS 24 hours in the Bible stop wasting your typing time endlessly repeating a point that we both agree on.



Matthew 28
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

I use a Dictionary.
dawn (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dawn?o=101753&qsrc=2871&l=dir): 1. the first appearance of daylight in the morning:

In context the meaning of the phrase was in the morning Mary got up and went a daylight.

Daylight (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/daylight?o=101753) is dawn. 4. daybreak; dawn.
Sunrise: (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Sunrise?o=101753)
1. the rise or ascent of the sun above the horizon in the morning.
2. the atmospheric and scenic phenomena accompanying this.
3. the time when half the sun has risen above the horizon.
4. the open or beginning stage of any period.


There would be reasons for this and one is, no street lights.
You twist just like a peddler.

LOL no mate i marvel at your brain lock. To the point of incredulous humour. Your so fixated on the Friday / Sunday thing and on putting forward you view that you cannot even read plain English of other posters.

You’re not contending with one who believes in the traditions of men. I am a bible believing Christian.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Post #141 has made an end to resurrection city beating the resurection lie told by Christendom. Post #141 exposes the God offal truth reavling those christian peddlers have even swindled God through their Lamb offering, by shorting him two days in the grave. You swindlers weren't thinking about what would be pleasureable to God.
That foundation of trumped up faith is nothing more than supersition and desire not to die. That resurection lie has collapsed.

The using a dictionary poorly to define their words or twist the meaning of their words speaks of Skullduggery.

Edit add:
Post #115 and #141 accomplishes the biblical approach to executing a take over. One can find this take over procedure in the gospel of Mark 3:27.

Mark 3:27
" But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house.

In this case it's a matter of honesty vs swindlers, flimflam men and snake oil peddlers. Jesus didn't rise. They were telling a lie. Now its goodby to that lie.

Post #141 has made an end to resurrection city beating the resurection lie told by Christendom. Post #141 exposes the God offal truth reaving those christian peddlers have even swindled God through their Lamb offering, by shorting him two days in the grave. You swindlers weren't thinking about what would be pleasureable to God.
That foundation of trumped up faith is nothing more than supersition and desire not to die. That resurection lie has collapsed.

The using a dictionary poorly to define their words or twist the meaning of their words speaks of Skullduggery.

:D ha ha ha ha ha

Some guys you just cannot talk to hey. :shrug:


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Some guys you just cannot talk to hey.

Uh, yeah. Had a chat with the mirror lately? :bugeye:



All Praise The Ancient Of Days


All Raise the Penchant of Daze

You have not even read my whole post have you.

Jesus was not executed on Friday He was executed on Wednesday before sunset.

If you know the day of the week, you must certainly know the exact date. What was the exact date?


I do not support a Friday crucifixion or a Sunday resurrection.

Would you support a Saturday animal sacrifice and BBQ?

The first day of the week starts at sunset Saturday night. So with this you can see that Mary visited the tomb of Jesus and found the rock removed. thats why it says it was still Dark of cource it would be dark. And the referance to early in the day, that also sits well because early in the biblical day is just after sunset in the evening.

She could not go to the tomb and tend to his body beforhand because she could not do any work on the sabbath. So the first opportunity she got. Saturday just after sunset she runs of to the tomb.




Originally Posted by Adstar
You have not even read my whole post have you.

Jesus was not executed on Friday He was executed on Wednesday before sunset.


Here I catch you juggling the days.
Concerning which day of the week Jesus was crucified, it was Friday. Jesus was crucified during preparation day (John 19:31). The preparation day was on Friday the day before the Sabbath. So your attempt at juggling the day Jesus died isn't going to work.

Luke 23:54 (New International Version)
54It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.
Meaning it was friday evening...............Pay attention here, you.

Mark 15:42
42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached,
Same as in Luke 23:54 it was friday evening. Saturday during daylight hours was normally referred to as the sabbath.

John 19:31
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
Clearly this verse states and confirmed using Luke 23:54 it was on friday, preparation day, the bodies were taken down.

Matthew 27:63
63"Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.'

Unless one has a motive to twist the writings in the bible, clearly preparation day is friday the day before the sabbath. And for most people this is the way it is understood.

Saying Jesus was executed on Wednesday is asinine. The preparation day was not wednesday. It was friday the day before the sabbath. They were prepping on friday for the sabbath rituals and traditions to be performed the next day on saturday. Saturday during daylight hours worshipping was done together in the temple, the sabbath. You're the one with the straw man argument, twisting things to stay alive. Luke 23:54 and John 19:31 shows that you are wrong when claiming Jesus was executed on wednesday. God was swindled out of two days in the grave, instead of three days he only got one. Jesus prediction of rising from the dead after three day didn't happen. Now peddlers of religion are stuck twisting the account and juggling the days.

The reason for the confusion is because those people back then were ignorant liars. The liars from the past got caught. Peddlers could acknowledge the found out about lies, instead they have to contort the account and fumble with the days. Religion's swindlers, flimflam men and snake oil peddlers aren’t expressing a straight forward account. That’s because there is a lacking of honesty among them.

When including the dispelling of the creation story we have peddlers on the run.

Posting #115, #141 and #147 finishes the execution concerning taking over in accordance with Mark 3:27. Changes are riding the wind.

Man wasn't made in the image of God, instead the computer ("it") is making an image of man.

Here I catch you juggling the days.
Concerning which day of the week Jesus was crucified, it was Friday. Jesus was crucified during preparation day (John 19:31). The preparation day was on Friday the day before the Sabbath. So your attempt at juggling the day Jesus died isn't going to work.

Luke 23:54 (New International Version)
54It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.
Meaning it was friday evening...............Pay attention here, you.

Mark 15:42
42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached,
Same as in Luke 23:54 it was friday evening. Saturday during daylight hours was normally referred to as the sabbath.

John 19:31
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
Clearly this verse states and confirmed using Luke 23:54 it was on friday, preparation day, the bodies were taken down.

Matthew 27:63
63"Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.'

Unless one has a motive to twist the writings in the bible, clearly preparation day is friday the day before the sabbath. And for most people this is the way it is understood.

Saying Jesus was executed on Wednesday is asinine. The preparation day was not wednesday. It was friday the day before the sabbath. They were prepping on friday for the sabbath rituals and traditions to be performed the next day on saturday. Saturday during daylight hours worshipping was done together in the temple, the sabbath. You're the one with the straw man argument, twisting things to stay alive. Luke 23:54 and John 19:31 shows that you are wrong when claiming Jesus was executed on wednesday. God was swindled out of two days in the grave, instead of three days he only got one. Jesus prediction of rising from the dead after three day didn't happen. Now peddlers of religion are stuck twisting the account and juggling the days.

The reason for the confusion is because those people back then were ignorant liars. The liars from the past got caught. Peddlers could acknowledge the found out about lies, instead they have to contort the account and fumble with the days. Religion's swindlers, flimflam men and snake oil peddlers aren’t expressing a straight forward account. That’s because there is a lacking of honesty among them.

When including the dispelling of the creation story we have peddlers on the run.

They had a Preparation Day before each Sabbath because they could not do any customary work on the Sabbaths, same for the Sabbaths that where not weekly Sabbaths. They also required a day of preparation.

For anyone who is not wilfully ignorant and wants to look this up. The day after the Jewish day of Passover is the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" and the first day of that Feast is a Sabbath irrespective of where it falls in the week.

As we know Jesus had the Passover meal just before He was arrested and executed. So it was not the weekly Sabbath that came after the Passover But the first day of the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" And that is a Sabbath a High Day.

And the Passover is in remembrance of the day when the Jews in Egypt covered their door posts and lintel with the blood of an unblemished Lamb so that during the night the Angel of the God would pass over their homes and not take the lives of their first born males as it passed through the land of Egypt taking the lives of the first born amongst the Egyptians.

So the shadow of the past was a sign of the Perfect Lamb of God, Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If you know the day of the week, you must certainly know the exact date. What was the exact date?

The 14th of Nissan which is the first month in the jewish calander.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

For anyone who is not wilfully ignorant and wants to look this up. The day after the Jewish day of Passover is the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" and the first day of that Feast is a Sabbath irrespective of where it falls in the week.

As we know Jesus had the Passover meal just before He was arrested and executed. So it was not the weekly Sabbath that came after the Passover But the first day of the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" And that is a Sabbath a High Day.


1. The seventh day (Saturday) Sabbath (http://biblelight.net/feasts.htm) - (Shabbat)
Lev 23:3, Num 28:9-10, Exo 20,8-11, Deut 5:12-15
A convocation day. No servile work done.
This is the only feast day mentioned that occurs more than once a year. Because it occurs on a weekly basis, it is separate and distinct from the yearly religious calendar (Lev. 23:37-38), the feasts of which all are a shadow or type of some event that would be their fulfillment, or antitype. The seventh day sabbath is a memorial to creation and the creator, established at creation. It was not a day that originated with the Jews, it preceded them, although it was celebrated as a feast day. When one of the feast days fell on the seventh day Sabbath, it was referred to as a high Sabbath day (John 19:31).

Well, well, now we know confirming again Jesus body was removed from the cross on friday evening, on preparation day, when the high sabbath was about to begin. That particular feast day fell on a seventh day (saturday) sabbath making it a high sabbath. And God is still lacking two days in the grave. You did say Jesus was raised saturday evening, did you not?


edit add as foot note:

2. Passover (Erev Pesah or Ta'anit Bechorim)

The 14th day of the 1st month (Abib / Nisan)
Exo 12, Exo 13:6-8, Lev 23:5, Deut 16:3-8, Num 28:16
Note: this was not a convocation day (no public gatherings)

The Jews consider this day to be the day before Passover (Pesah), which to them is the same as the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The type was the Passover in Egypt, with the blood of the lamb being smeared on the door posts. Jesus and the disciples ate the Passover meal (Matt 26:18-20) of unleavened bread and wine in the early hours of this day (Exo 12:18), which would have been our Thursday evening (the biblical day begins and ends at sunset). Jesus was crucified the afternoon of the 14th (Friday), at the time the Paschal lambs were being slain (Exo 12:6). Passover is a shadow or type of the sacrifice of Jesus (the antitype), the lamb of God, at the cross (1 Cor 5:7).

Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn5mrHS08hw

or this?

Curious. Pretty rare, though, you'll have to admit. Then again, they also reject Zionism, so they must have your support. ;)

You should learn the words to the song, adstar.
Cheap Trick Jack in the box (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r0HTV7WkQk)

You should learn the words to the song, adstar.
Cheap Trick Jack in the box (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r0HTV7WkQk)

Why so?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days