Just wondering if people think it would be okay for president Obama to rape a woman and then send her husband to Iraq on a suicide mission so he could have the rape victim all to himself. And if he admitted wrong doing and then claimed that god said that if he aborts the baby of the widowed rape victim, he is now forgiven, would you then consider president obama forgiven, and all in all a great holy man worthy of leading America for years to come?

... And yes I'm going somewhere with this one as well.

Just wondering if people think it would be okay for president Obama to rape a woman . . . .

Only if he was born in Kenya.

Just wondering if people think it would be okay for president Obama to rape a woman and then send her husband to Iraq on a suicide mission so he could have the rape victim all to himself. And if he admitted wrong doing and then claimed that god said that if he aborts the baby of the widowed rape victim, he is now forgiven, would you then consider president obama forgiven, and all in all a great holy man worthy of leading America for years to come?

... And yes I'm going somewhere with this one as well.
I feel you are about to beat a dead horse . This story sounds like King David and Bathsheba. I think that was the woman's name he saw bathing and had to have , He sent her husband into battle to be killed so he could

Bingo! I knew someone would get it.

But please explain why it is beating a dead horse.

I think it's interesting to re-tell the bible stories in a modern context. Kind of makes the immorality of it all a bit clearer to see.

Bingo! I knew someone would get it.

But please explain why it is beating a dead horse.

I think it's interesting to re-tell the bible stories in a modern context. Kind of makes the immorality of it all a bit clearer to see.

thats the same story of king Arthurs conception as well (at least in the version i saw). His father got merlin to make him look like Arthurs mothers wife then had him lured out into battle where he was killed. At the same time hes fucking her and she concives Arthur

Bingo! I knew someone would get it.

But please explain why it is beating a dead horse.

I think it's interesting to re-tell the bible stories in a modern context. Kind of makes the immorality of it all a bit clearer to see.

Because the story has been retold many many times with many many different characters. That is the meaning of beating a dead horse . Like a warn out shoe . I got one for you " Go rent the movie life of Brian and watch it

lol and of course we all know that if we don't teach our children about stories like that then they will grow up with no morals. The bible is just such a moral and loving book, without it our children will never know the situations in which they are allowed to rape and murder other people.

Life of brian didn't re-tell the David and Bathsheba story.

Life of brian didn't re-tell the David and Bathsheba story.

I know ! It tells a story that will help you straighten out your Brain though

I need to straighten out my brain... please tell me more. How can I think the same way as you?

Sorry but I've been a Christian and I've been an atheist, and I find that atheism is a much straighter way of thinking.

I need to straighten out my brain... please tell me more. How can I think the same way as you?

Sorry but I've been a Christian and I've been an atheist, and I find that atheism is a much straighter way of thinking.

Are you an Atheist then ? You have to read all my posts if you want to be like Me . Beware though . It has been said that I am hard to understand . Some may even call my rhetoric gibberish

Yes I am an atheist.

And gibberish is fine. I would not have come onto the religion part of this forum if I were not comfortable with hearing some gibberish.

Yes I am an atheist.

And gibberish is fine. I would not have come onto the religion part of this forum if I were not comfortable with hearing some gibberish.

why are you telling bible stories?

O.K. give it your best shot . Prove there is no God / or Gods . Prove there are no Demigods also.

I don't need to prove anything. By default everyone is an atheist. It's the default position of belief. Every christian was converted, they were by default atheist. Therefore all I need to do is try to show that the reasons for their conversion are unwarranted, for example converting because god is good and you are bad and need forgiveness. Well if god is in fact not good, the reason is removed and the default atheistic viewpoint should be restored to it's rightful place.

I really don't understand why a lot of christians say you have to show proof for atheism... it's a default position requiring no positive proof.

I don't need to prove anything. By default everyone is an atheist. It's the default position of belief. Every christian was converted, they were by default atheist. Therefore all I need to do is try to show that the reasons for their conversion are unwarranted, for example converting because god is good and you are bad and need forgiveness. Well if god is in fact not good, the reason is removed and the default atheistic viewpoint should be restored to it's rightful place.

I really don't understand why a lot of christians say you have to show proof for atheism... it's a default position requiring no positive proof.

Ha Ha Ha Ha you are one of those GGnod Hating Atheist . Wee got a hole thread going on that very subject . To Funny ,

lol and of course we all know that if we don't teach our children about stories like that then they will grow up with no morals. The bible is just such a moral and loving book, without it our children will never know the situations in which they are allowed to rape and murder other people.

What's your point?

Why think that David's line of action was the one that the Bible endorses?

I don't need to prove anything. By default everyone is an atheist. It's the default position of belief. Every christian was converted, they were by default atheist. Therefore all I need to do is try to show that the reasons for their conversion are unwarranted, for example converting because god is good and you are bad and need forgiveness. Well if god is in fact not good, the reason is removed and the default atheistic viewpoint should be restored to it's rightful place.

I really don't understand why a lot of christians say you have to show proof for atheism... it's a default position requiring no positive proof.
There are many people on this site that are theist and not christian. So if you think about that for a little bit it might inspire you to rethink your attack on Theism. Not just to just center on the Jesus lovers.

I don't hate god. Why would I hate something that doesn't exist?
It's belief in god that I hate.

But don't think that that is ill-informed hate. I did go to bible college and work in the church, etc...

There are many people on this site that are theist and not christian. So if you think about that for a little bit it might inspire you to rethink your attack on Theism. Not just to just center on the Jesus lovers.

One at a time.

Science requires proof .

The religious thought is Davids hands were covered with blood and that is why his son Solomon built the Great house of god and not David . David be bad by his act of sending Bathsheba's husband into battle to be killed anyway , so that ain't a good example . We all know King David be bad by analysis of the story

What's your point?

Why think that David's line of action was the one that the Bible endorses?

2 Sammuel 12:
Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.”

So David effectively gets away with murder and rape.

Can you imagine people allowing Obama to stay in power after raping and murdering a woman if he just claims god said that he is forgiven and the punishment paid will be the abortion of the raped womans child?

I don't think the punishment really fits the crime. Actually I don't think any logical person would believe that the punishment fits the crime.

And christians today sing psalms written by king david, as if he is some sort of holy role model. I can think of better role models that are in prison.

Science requires proof .

The religious thought is Davids hands were covered with blood and that is why his son Solomon built the Great house of god and not David . David be bad by his act of sending Bathsheba's husband into battle to be killed anyway , so that ain't a good example . We all know King David be bad by analysis of the story

There's a difference between positive and negative proof. Science can justify atheism by bringing down the alternative beliefs. Atheism does not add anything to the default position of belief/lack of belief so therefore has no claims that can be positively proven.

I write like this because people like William Lane Craig like to claim that atheism needs to do more than bring down the alternative beliefs. But atheism is the null hypothesis. By default if the evidence is not there the null hypothesis is retained.

2 Sammuel 12:
Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.”

So David effectively gets away with murder and rape.

Can you imagine people allowing Obama to stay in power after raping and murdering a woman if he just claims god said that he is forgiven and the punishment paid will be the abortion of the raped womans child?

I don't think the punishment really fits the crime. Actually I don't think any logical person would believe that the punishment fits the crime.

And christians today sing psalms written by king david, as if he is some sort of holy role model. I can think of better role models that are in prison.

You didn't answer my question:

Why think that David's line of action was the one that the Bible endorses?

The Bible doesn't endorse the line of action, it underpunishes it. Unjust punishment = unjust god.

Also David is referred to in the bible as holy and righteous. But I think anyone with any sense of morality could see that that is far from the truth.

Also David is referred to in the bible as holy and righteous. But I think anyone with any sense of morality could see that that is far from the truth.

So you seem to think that David should be judged by some things he did when he was young, and it should be completely disregarded what he did later?

Yes you should be punished for raping a woman and murdering her husband.

I think the courts will agree with me on that one.

It's funny that humanistic morality would dictate that david should have been put in jail for 20 years but god says that aborting a child is good enough.

Also here's a nice verse, I don't think David deserves the praise though.

1 Samuel 13:14
New International Version (NIV)

14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the LORD’s command.”

David, a man after gods own heart. And yet he is incredibly immoral, sociopath kind of material. I wonder if that says something about the christian god.

2 Sammuel 12:
Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.”

So David effectively gets away with murder and rape.

Can you imagine people allowing Obama to stay in power after raping and murdering a woman if he just claims god said that he is forgiven and the punishment paid will be the abortion of the raped womans child?

I don't think the punishment really fits the crime. Actually I don't think any logical person would believe that the punishment fits the crime.

And christians today sing psalms written by king david, as if he is some sort of holy role model. I can think of better role models that are in prison.

That is the Past and the way the ancients thought . Most Nations don't stone people anymore either . Law is still being developed today . Consider this . The laws today will seem like barbarism a 500 years from now . Moral judgment is a moving target . Just think if Abraham killed Isaac we might still kill one of our children today as to make our crops grow better

My point is that if it was right for god to do that before, and if unlike the development of society and human law, gods ways never change, then by rights it should be right for him to do the same now.

BTW this is one good reason why humans are better than the christian god.

The Bible doesn't endorse the line of action, it underpunishes it. Unjust punishment = unjust god.

You look at the past from the eyes of the future and your own spot in history . Hitler was the golden boy back in the Day . Did you know that ? Yeah Americans thought he was the greatest in his beginnings. Hell America almost went to socialism then. His racism did not seem to bother people so much . It was not until he started Killing that the world turned against Him . Lets Take Truman as an example . The bomb was he right or wrong for dropping the bomb ? You get a mixed answer still today . Your looking at the past from your future eyes . O.K. what is your stance on Obama bombing Lybia ?

My point is that if it was right for god to do that before, and if unlike the development of society and human law, gods ways never change, then by rights it should be right for him to do the same now.
You have not proved anything . You don't know your bible well enough either to realizes the attributes of god that don't change . Circumstance changes but the mercy of God don't . You missed important books of bible . The ones were God says to forgive .

Anyway you are still stuck on the Bible interpretation of a living God

BTW this is one good reason why humans are better than the christian god.

How did you reason that again . I didn't get it ? Cause he let David Kill ? Or because he didn't put laws in place to put David in prison for 20 years to life or stone him ? To be equal Ah yeah Humans are working on it . They are not there yet . You think cause we have collective laws we try to enforce ( were 33% of all people in jail are innocent that we are better than the christian god . O.K. then what ever

Just wondering if people think it would be okay for president Obama to rape a woman and then send her husband to Iraq on a suicide mission so he could have the rape victim all to himself. And if he admitted wrong doing and then claimed that god said that if he aborts the baby of the widowed rape victim, he is now forgiven, would you then consider president obama forgiven, and all in all a great holy man worthy of leading America for years to come?

... And yes I'm going somewhere with this one as well.

Yes of course. Not only could he rape and murder as he wished, he could enrol 50 other nations to do it - voluntarily and with no pressure - along with him. Which is why inspite of Abu Ghraib, inspite of hundreds and thousands of people killed or tortured, inspite of many thousands massacred, he is still free and respected as the President of the US and still raping, murdering and torturing as he desires, if not directly, then by proxy.

Yes of course. Not only could he rape and murder as he wished, he could enrol 50 other nations to do it - voluntarily and with no pressure - along with him. Which is why inspite of Abu Ghraib, inspite of hundreds and thousands of people killed or tortured, inspite of many thousands massacred, he is still free and respected as the President of the US and still raping, murdering and torturing as he desires, if not directly, then by proxy.

Ha Ha Ha Ha you are the Greatest Sara . I tip my hat

BTW this is one good reason why humans are better than the christian god.

Which humans? When?

My point is that if it was right for god to do that before, and if unlike the development of society and human law, gods ways never change, then by rights it should be right for him to do the same now.

What exactly does it mean that "God's ways never change"?


If we look just into the Bible, the range of attitudes and behaviors ascribed to God is quite vast. He immolates or drowns some, has others torn to shreds by beasts - and He forgives others and parts seas for them and such.
He certainly isn't described as a one-trick pony!

Can you imagine people allowing Obama to stay in power after raping and murdering a woman if he just claims god said that he is forgiven and the punishment paid will be the abortion of the raped womans child?

It's not clear how a modern-time president (with atheist leanings) can be meaningfully compared to an ancient king.



I don't think the punishment really fits the crime. Actually I don't think any logical person would believe that the punishment fits the crime.

Even modern, humanist countries differ vastly in the punishments they assign for crimes.
A crime that by US state laws would earn the offender the capital punishment, might, in some European countries, earn 20-30 years of prison sentence. In some European countries, the highest possible prison sentence is 30 years.
In some Far-East countries, a person can be sentenced to death for drug-related crimes. The same crime in Europe could get them as little as a few months in prison.

The punishment fitting the crime is a very relative term.



And christians today sing psalms written by king david, as if he is some sort of holy role model. I can think of better role models that are in prison.

There is repentance, and there is forgiveness.
Without them, we are stuck in misery.

I don't need to prove anything. By default everyone is an atheist.

Really? You have interviewed newborns? :o



Therefore all I need to do is try to show that the reasons for their conversion are unwarranted,

What you might actually be after are reasons for not being a Christian yourself.

Ha Ha Ha Ha you are the Greatest Sara . I tip my hat

The question wasn't well thought out. Politicians have diplomatic immunity. They are allowed to commit crimes and almost never held accountable for them, no matter how terrible the crimes may be, except by other politicians who stand to gain from punishing them and have the power to enforce such punishment.

Okay so everyones arguments are basically that rape and murder should be punished by the abortion of a widows unborn child a couple thousand years ago. But god was still merciful and loving back then. And the same god that aborts babies as a punishment for rape and murder, now wouldn't because he forgives the people that believe in him even though he is invisible, and those that don't will just burn in hell.

Yeah that sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Throw in a talking snake and some walking on water and you got yourself a sound and reasonable story to base your whole entire life on.

Yes of course. Not only could he rape and murder as he wished, he could enrol 50 other nations to do it - voluntarily and with no pressure - along with him. Which is why inspite of Abu Ghraib, inspite of hundreds and thousands of people killed or tortured, inspite of many thousands massacred, he is still free and respected as the President of the US and still raping, murdering and torturing as he desires, if not directly, then by proxy.

Mohammed killed and tortured thousands of people too, but people still revere him.

Mohammed killed and tortured thousands of people too, but people still revere him.

Good point. Why is someone that has been so horrible, worthy of praise?

It's exactly those deeds that were respected in the past. These things we are complaining about now were very impressive to ancient people, signs of god's power and wrath.

I should have said, why is someone that has been so horrible, STILL worthy of praise?

I think it's interesting to re-tell the bible stories in a modern context. Kind of makes the immorality of it all a bit clearer to see.
It may indeed show that JeHoVaH is a jerk, but it does nothing to show he doesn't exist.

It may indeed show that JeHoVaH is a jerk, but it does nothing to show he doesn't exist.

I agree.

I should have said, why is someone that has been so horrible, STILL worthy of praise?

Power in and of itself inspires worship, even if it is of the awe and respect kind.

So it's right to worship evil as long as it's powerful?

This isn't about moral right and wrong.
Power simply trumps everything else - it's in the nature of power.

The really interesting thing is that the sun used to be worshipped for that exact same reason.

Doesn't really seem like a good enough reason though does it?

Why not?
Power is overpowering.
Whether we like it or not, we are in awe of power.

The question is only whether we will intelligently embark on the search for the Most Powerful One, or whether we will settle for things that are powerful, but not the most powerful.

What makes you think the Most Powerful One desires to be worshipped?

What's your point?

What's your point?

It seemed obvious to me...


The really interesting thing is that the sun used to be worshipped for that exact same reason.

Doesn't really seem like a good enough reason though does it?

Does the sun desire to be worshipped?
I'd say probably not. I doubt the sun has any desires...


Why not?
Power is overpowering.
Whether we like it or not, we are in awe of power.

The question is only whether we will intelligently embark on the search for the Most Powerful One, or whether we will settle for things that are powerful, but not the most powerful.
So, does something more powerful desire/require worship?

Where are you driving with this question of whether the Most Powerful One desires to be worshipped?

Why do you think it is relevant whether the Most Powerful One desires to be worshipped or not?

Just trying to understand why people have a desire to worship something. I mean, it can be awe inspiring, magnificent, beautiful, mysterious... whatever. But I'm not sure I understand the worship concept.

If you consider it irrelevant, then we apologize for the interruption and now return you to your regular programming.

Good point. It is pointless to worship something that doesn't even know you are worshipping it because it isn't a sentient being (a.k.a: the sun).

I don't understand the link between 'it's powerful ... THEREFORE we should worship it'.

I don't think it's as straight forward as that.

Good point. It is pointless to worship something that doesn't even know you are worshipping it because it isn't a sentient being (a.k.a: the sun).

I don't understand the link between 'it's powerful ... THEREFORE we should worship it'.

I don't think it's as straight forward as that.

It's not "It's powerful ... THEREFORE we should worship it".

It is simply "It's powerful ... THEREFORE we worship it".

Power inspires awe. It's just the actual expression of this awe that may vary (anything from building temples to exclaiming "oh, this is so wonderful!").

I don't agree with your logic. I'm happy to leave it at that and let this thread die now.

Thanks.

Okay so everyones arguments are basically that rape and murder should be punished by the abortion of a widows unborn child a couple thousand years ago. But god was still merciful and loving back then. And the same god that aborts babies as a punishment for rape and murder, now wouldn't because he forgives the people that believe in him even though he is invisible, and those that don't will just burn in hell.

Yeah that sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Throw in a talking snake and some walking on water and you got yourself a sound and reasonable story to base your whole entire life on.

Be careful wad do say about Me snake now

I don't agree with your logic. I'm happy to leave it at that and let this thread die now.

Coward. :rolleyes:

Signal back up your logic with any sort of evidence and then I might consider it something other than a waste of time.

another anti-theist thread..
bigotry and prejudice and haters are alive and well..

just because a story is in the bible does not make it OK..alot of the stories are examples of how NOT to behave..

Yes exactly, don't behave like god because he is a prick.

Yes exactly, don't behave like god because he is a prick.

Why Why Why , I heard from Joe about this Guy and I want to know ?

O.K. don't listen to em , God is your friend . He tries his best , really he does