i don't get why the jews didn't follow jesus when he came along?

Maybe he didn't qualify as the Moshiach/Mashiach?

What does the Torah say about the Moshiach?

The Jews as a group demonstrated a consistent pattern of disobedience and disbelief in their relationship with YHWH. Testimony to this can be found throughout the Old Testament especially in the [believing and, in most cases, obedient] Prophets. The Jewish rejection of their Messiah [Cornerstone] was the capstone of that same pattern of unbelief. The reasons for their disobedience and disbelief are revealed to any who care to learn them by Jews who DID believe and obey...Those reasons can be found/ferreted out through a study of their writings found in the New Testament.

That said, redemption through their Messiah Jesus Christ is intended (and even now still available) for Jews and Gentiles alike, indeed this was The Father's plan all along.

i don't get why the jews didn't follow Jesus when he came along?
It is very easy , because the Jews believe in Moses who came hundreds of years before Jesus . So when someone new came with a new mythology they just ignored him . Good for them ......:) .

I think Its because Jesus was talking in parables.... The Jews thought Jesus was claiming to be God when he clearly was not.... Messiah was not God thus Jesus is not the Messiah.

The Christians ended up doing what the jews did.

Peace be unto you ;)

Yeah Jesus really didn't fit the bill. I'm struggling to recall religious studies that I took years ago here, but I believe the Jewish messiah was supposed to a) be a (human) descendant of King David, b) restore the Davidic throne, c) rebuild the temple.

We should also remember that (1) Jews used to proselytize and (2) Jews were the first Christians.

Photizo your post displays the religious-savy of a Southern Evangelist - with the uneducated claims to back it. Let's dissect all of its problems, then I will give a general overview answering scifes question.


The Jews as a group demonstrated a consistent pattern of disobedience and disbelief in their relationship with ****. Testimony to this can be found throughout the Old Testament especially in the [believing and, in most cases, obedient] Prophets.

If the Jews BCE disobedience landed them punishment, what's the punishment for Europeans animist savages? Your ancestors were far more ruthlessly unlawful - for example; most Jews could read - write - and understand law, most Greek lawyers were illiterate. The Jewish system was more just, and less corrupt.

Your very post displayed callous disregard for your supposed God's name, I think that's against one of your 10, right? Do you even know what these supposed 'disobediences' entailed? Well, in the second temple period I do - I'll give you a hint, they're not discussed in the prophets because there was no prophet at the time. If what caused the destruction of their temple was held upon the non-Jews, then we should expect a second flood any day now.

The majority of Israel's root indiscretions can be read of in the time of Judges, you know that 460 year period where there was only one book written?


The Jewish rejection of their Messiah [Cornerstone] was the capstone of that same pattern of unbelief.

Which part precisely did they reject? Was it the "Love your neighbor as yourself" which had been said by Beis Hillel oh...say...100 years before Jesus was supposedly born? Was it "remove the sty from your eye" that was said by the Rishonim compiled into a book later on from a named source who said it again...hundreds of years earlier? Was it his claim "None of your are righteous, not even one"? You know...the statement which was said by King Solomon (or David) in Psalms? Which statement did they clearly disobey?



The reasons for their disobedience and disbelief are revealed to any who care to learn them by Jews who DID believe and obey...Those reasons can be found/ferreted out through a study of their writings found in the New Testament.

Explain to me how a man who was born in one city in a country, when there were Jews all the way from France to Saudi Arabia...was supposed to be followed by them all? Also explain - how come Paul wrote down the New Testament and spread it a full 220 years after he supposedly died? That's right, for 220 years nobody thought anything or even knew of this man who was killed by the Romans. But miraculously he comes to Paul in his dreams - he writes it down, and suddenly every Jew was supposed to be held to it? Please, if the Messiah came to earth, don't you think God would have an effective way to inform them all...kind of like the one he described in....the prophets?



That said, redemption through their Messiah Jesus Christ is intended (and even now still available) for Jews and Gentiles alike, indeed this was The Father's plan all along.
It still blows my mind that a bunch of Europeans whose ancestors believed the Oak tree was their god all of the sudden feel that the "Old covenant" no longer applies to them. Let's say it magically doesn't - which part doesn't? Is the Sabbath no longer required? Is taking your Gods name in vein no longer binding? Is not believing in two gods still part of the deal? What about that sentence in the Tanakh that says "God is not a man"...does that not hold anymore either? You never did any of them - so...what's changed?

---

The basic answer is he didn't fulfill any of the prescribed events. The Jews didn't return to Israel after he came, the second temple wasn't built, there wasn't unending peace in the world, there wasn't pure clarity given to every human being. You know that "...and no sword will cross Israels land again" sentence in your bible...do you feel as if that's true today? So which is wrong, your bible - or you?

Maybe he didn't qualify as the Moshiach/Mashiach?

What does the Torah say about the Moshiach?

Alas! history rises from the darkest depths of doom...

We should also remember that (1) Jews used to proselytize and (2) Jews were the first Christians.
Jews were never the first Christians because a Jew believes in Moses and NOT Jesus .

If the Jews BCE disobedience landed them punishment, what's the punishment for Europeans animist savages?

Degrees of punishment will be based upon the the 'Light' given each culture. The Jews--above all people on earth--were chosen by YHWH to be His covenant people: Noblesse oblige.

Exactly - that's why we have 613+ laws, and you 10-.

It's not surprising that you didn't (couldn't) respond to the rest.

Statements like "That said, redemption through their Messiah Jesus Christ is intended (and even now still available) for Jews and Gentiles alike, indeed this was The Father's plan all along." make you sound like Ann Coulter, you shouldn't say them.

You are Jew CheskiChips?

Peace be unto you ;)

Exactly - that's why we have 613+ laws, and you 10-.

I'm a Christian. Distinct from either group, and no longer under either set of Laws. You however, are indeed under the Law. Gude ruck. The only thing you will gain from your efforts at obedience is the knowledge of how far your [weak] attempt falls short of the intended/DEMANDED 'target' i.e. Perfection.


It's not surprising that you didn't (couldn't) respond to the rest.

What's not surprizing is your reaction to my original post. It's spot on, ergo your tirade. I chose not to respond to the frenzied parrotings of an automaton: All you need to know is contained in my first reply.


Statements like "That said, redemption through their Messiah Jesus Christ is intended (and even now still available) for Jews and Gentiles alike, indeed this was The Father's plan all along." make you sound like Ann Coulter, you shouldn't say them.

More like the early Jewish evangelists. Coincidently they also were discouraged from testifying concerning the Jewish Good News by the 'religious' ausore-ah-tease. However--like them--In Christ, I choose to listen to, believe, and obey YHWH, my Father. Shalom.

I'm a Christian. Distinct from either group, and no longer under either set of Laws. You however, are indeed under the Law. Gude ruck. The only thing you will gain from your efforts at obedience is the knowledge of how far your [weak] attempt falls short of the intended/DEMANDED 'target' i.e. Perfection.



What's not surprizing is your reaction to my original post. It's spot on, ergo your tirade. I chose not to respond to the frenzied parrotings of an automaton: All you need to know is contained in my first reply.



More like the early Jewish evangelists. Coincidently they also were discouraged from testifying concerning the Jewish Good News by the 'religious' ausore-ah-tease. However--like them--In Christ, I choose to listen to, believe, and obey YHWH, my Father. Shalom.
You're a nothing. But excuse me for being a little uncomfortable when the first response to "What's the difference between Jews and Christians" is - "The Jews as a group demonstrated a consistent pattern of disobedience and disbelief in their relationship".

You see how my answer to his question is based on my beliefs, and not on yours? Your answer is "The Jews disobey" - the fact you've defined yourself by me is flattering.


You are Jew CheskiChips?

Peace be unto you ;)

Yes.

You're a nothing...the fact you've defined yourself by me is flattering.

Verily I say unto you, you have your reward.

We have a lot of diversity here at the forum.... Didn't know any jews here.

Shalom ;) (Peace be unto you)

i don't get why the jews didn't follow jesus when he came along?

They where probably looking for a military leader who would defeat the Roman occupiers and make Judah the centre of world power.

They did not understand Jesus because He was not the Messiah they thought He would be. He was not the kind of Messiah they wanted.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Verily I say unto you, you have your reward.

There's 4 or 5 here - used to be an Israeli, SpocksBeard.

I'm not sure, but I do know that there is a longstanding inferiority complex deeply rooted in the minds of modern day Jews due to Christians. They make them feel as though they only have half of a religion.

I'm not sure, but I do know that there is a longstanding inferiority complex deeply rooted in the minds of modern day Jews due to Christians. They make them feel as though they only have half of a religion.

???
Where?

There's only annoyance - we've been in Christian countries for 1600 years and they have miraculously managed to learn nothing about what we believe. Rather they've superimposed their theology on us, I remember being in school as a child and being told about transubstantiation and being ridiculed because I was the only person who thought it was an insane notion, yet 96% of the people around me believed it.

Do you understand what it's like being Jewish? "A man wrote about another man 220 after the first man died who was some how a living deity born of a virgin...and then for 1800 years they killed your ancestors over it and as recently as 60 years ago they slaughtered 6 million over the distinction."
Every day when you buy something someone remarks "Bet you're getting a good deal", or when you don't give money to a homeless person you get a bunch of snide remarks. Or simply walking near the Southern Baptists they call you a Christ killer - Passion of the Christ, great movie.

I was once working and a woman comes in and asks to see my horns, and I didn't feel shocked over it - it happens in the south a lot.

Is it inferiority, or annoyance?

lol

Peace be unto you ;)

There's only annoyance - we've been in Christian countries for 1600 years and they have miraculously managed to learn nothing about what we believe

This is true. Does anyone know what Hanukkah is about?


I was the only person who thought it was an insane notion, yet 96% of the people around me believed it.

Do you understand what it's like being Jewish?

Ha yes, I never thought of that, it must be strange when you are in a minority of people who don't believe what everyone else does.



We have a lot of diversity here at the forum.... Didn't know any jews here.

Shalom ;) (Peace be unto you)

Cheski is the only observant Jew here ie he is the only one here who believes in and knows the Torah. I was very happy when he joined, its rare to find one of these species.:D

There are some other Jews/Israelis but only Spock is one I know from Israel.

Do you understand what it's like being Jewish?

As well as you understand what it's like being not jewish.

I was born and raised in Long Island, NY. There are tons of jews down there, if you've ever been. Manhattan has its fair share too. I've probably had more dealings with jewish people than tons of people who are jewish or at least pretend to be.

I still remember as far back as elementary school, when the Jewish parents would call the principal because they didn't want Christmas songs being sung at school concerts. It was never the Hindus who protested, never the muslims, never the Taoists. Even the seculars loved those Christmas songs. It was only the jewish parents (and the kids they brainwashed to hate Christmas) who did.

Why do you think that is, Cheski?

I still remember as far back as elementary school, when the Jewish parents would call the principal because they didn't want Christmas songs being sung at school concerts. It was never the Hindus who protested, never the muslims, never the Taoists. Even the seculars loved those Christmas songs. It was only the jewish parents (and the kids they brainwashed to hate Christmas) who did.

Why do you think that is, Cheski?

There's just something about singing songs for a day which represents the birth of a man whose followers have caused hundreds of millions of people in your families death, that never caught on in the Jewish world.

Can I give you another hint? Idol worship, yeah, that's forbidden.


Here's a few excerpts from a Rabbi discussing the issue:
"Christmas celebrates the birth of the Christian god who came to rescue mankind from the “curse of the Torah.” It is a 24-hour declaration that Judaism is no longer valid."

December 25 is a day on which Jews have been shamed, tortured, and murdered.ncarnations of the most depraved pagan rituals ever practiced on earth.

The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).

Nicholas (Santa Clause) was born in Parara, Turkey in 270 CE and later became Bishop of Myra. He died in 345 CE on December 6th. He was only named a saint in the 19th century.
Nicholas was among the most senior bishops who convened the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE and created the New Testament. The text they produced portrayed Jews as “the children of the devil”[11] who sentenced Jesus to death.

Text: http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
Audio (more elaborate): http://audio.simpletoremember.com/misc/Real-Story-of-X-mas-and-New-Years-b.mp3


So you see....the Christmas Tree was pagan, the mistletoe - also pagan...the 'gift giving' actual a sacrifice to Saturn...Santa Clause? The remnants of an Anti-Semitic Catholic Bishop...and the Christian theme? The renunciation of Judaism.

Is it really that difficult to see why any self-respecting Jew might not want to celebrate the day - or for that matter, recognize it? The same author proposes Hitler day, if you make pretty songs and rituals to that - do we have to sing and dance to that one too?

I'm aware of Christmas' pagan roots.

However, what you are saying (or at least who you are quoting) only reinforces what I said.


"Christmas celebrates the birth of the Christian god who came to rescue mankind from the “curse of the Torah.” It is a 24-hour declaration that Judaism is no longer valid."


I'm not sure, but I do know that there is a longstanding inferiority complex deeply rooted in the minds of modern day Jews due to Christians. They make them feel as though they only have half of a religion.

There's an inferiority complex at work here that is causing Jews to view Christmas as a direct and deliberate attack upon their religion. Whether that idea is true, imagined, or exaggerated, they are still allowing their own insecurities about that holiday (and the religion it represents) affect them in an unhealthy way. Hardly anyone acts that way about Christmas except for militant jews. A lot of them aren't even that militant, though.

consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).
I always thought that was weird.

I'm aware of Christmas' pagan roots.

However, what you are saying (or at least who you are quoting) only reinforces what I said.





There's an inferiority complex at work here that is causing Jews to view Christmas as a direct and deliberate attack upon their religion. Whether that idea is true, imagined, or exaggerated, they are still allowing their own insecurities about that holiday (and the religion it represents) affect them in an unhealthy way. Hardly anyone acts that way about Christmas except for militant jews. A lot of them aren't even that militant, though.

It's a holiday about renouncing Judaism...I wouldn't expect a Muslim to celebrate a holiday renouncing Islam, and I wouldn't expect a Christian to celebrate a holiday celebrating renouncing Christianity.

If anything most of them probably feel like they're slightly better than you for not practicing pagan acts. Are you even serious? Jews should just be 'tolerant' and celebrate a holiday that renounces their religion...which...ironically...falls VERY close to Hannukah, a holiday about rejecting Hellenism and the idea that we should all just be 'tolerant'?

Cheski, you are acting as though renouncing judaism was the goal of Christmas. It was more of a side effect.

A disproportionate amount of the jews I've known over the years have carried a chip on their shoulder and/or had self-esteem issues related to this.

I also want to point out for everybody reading that I practice no religion. My mother was a Methodist of Scottish descent and my father a Lutheran born right in Germany. After having my brothers and me, my mother decided to convert to Catholicism and tried raising us that way. All of us including her are now non-practicing, secular people.

So I really have no religious stake in this issue and I'm coming at it with a very even-handed approach. However, I still recognize and enjoy Christmas. Christians don't have the monopoly on goodwill, and the roots of the holiday matter little to me. :cool:

Probably because people like you can't realize that celebrating a holiday that's antithetical to the 'coexistent' holiday of Hannukah is ridiculous. It stems from the fact that you don't know what Hannukah is. If you're so open minded, why don't you consider rejecting Hellenism for one year instead of Xmas?

There's no self-esteem issues, often, some children do feel a bit left out, seeing as we don't get debt-bearing gifts. It's also a tad bit agitating that people don't understand what "Rejecting Hellenism" means - paradoxically - every single Christmas (that's right, Christ - Mass) time people become increasingly angry at Jews killing their savior.

I remember one Christmas someone asked me if we mourned his birth.
I also remember one Easter someone asked me if we celebrated murdering him.

If you take (Anti-Semitic Comments + Celebration of Renouncing Judaism + Mass Ignorance of Hannukah + [Practically] Public School Requirement to Celebrate our destruction) that typically ='s a few annoyed yiddin.

---

Just because holidays don't mean anything to you, doesn't mean that's true to everyone. Look at the big Jewish holidays; Yom Kippur - day of atonement, Rosh HaShannah - Day of Judgement, Passover - day of freedom, Purim - day of re-accepting the Torah, Hannukah - day of renouncing Hellenism and Greek Culture, Tish B'Av - mourning destruction of temple.

You see, Jewish holidays represent real things, holidays mean something to Jews. When you ask us to celebrate a holiday which is rooted in our destruction we will automatically say no every time.
---
Here's something a secular might be able to understand. Say America was subjugated by China, and their values were imposed on us Americans. They then created a holiday celebrating the downfall of America...would you celebrate it?

Cheski: none of that stuff is real. Christianity, Judaism, Islam -- it's all derived from the same ancient Sumerian mythological crappola. Those three religions are all very closely tied in that all of them have the same basic roots. None of it's authentic, and all of it's a load of nonsense. If you're going to renounce one of them, you should renounce them all.

I think you should probably quit your religion. It is only a little less lame than Islam. Besides what's wrong with Hellenism? :cool:

You're right, my life's been a sham to this point. Thanks for point this out to me, finally I have a sense of clarity. I don't know if I would have ever snapped out of this haze without the assistance of atheists - what, with their superior intellect (http://www.rense.com/general78/jcontrol.htm), IQ's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence), and logical deduction. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky)

Notice a few interesting things...Secular Jews who turn out brilliant were almost all raised religious, their children on the other hand - typically average.

I prefer my method...I really do.

Cheski, that article you cite is stating that a higher intelligence is non-existent, meaning that the rumor was surreptitiously propogated by self-conscious jews who wanted a better image for themselves, similarly to the practice of circumcision.

Following your religion is not going to increase your intelligence, cheski. Religiosity is the meaningless factor here. The difference is cultural, not religious. The jews who brought their children directly from Europe and made their homes on Grand Concourse Ave, NY made it a priority in life to ardently aspire to seek higher education because of their belief that while money could be stripped from you, money-making capacity could not be.

You are not a part of that, and neither are any of the jewish kids today. Expressing a forced belief in your religion because you think it will make you intelligent won't change that.

Cheski, that article you cite is stating that a higher intelligence is probably non-existent, meaning that the rumor was surreptitiously propogated by self-conscious jews who wanted a better image for themselves, similarly to the practice of circumcision.

Following your religion is not going to increase your intelligence, cheski. Religiosity is the meaningless factor here. The difference is cultural, not religious. Those Jews who succeeded in life grew up in a very different time than you did, which is why the children of those Jews are typically average. The ones who migrated directly from Europe and established their homes on Grand Concourse Ave were inspired to ardently aspire to seek higher education in life because of their belief that while money could be stripped from you, money-making capacity could not be.

You are not a part of that, and neither are any of the jewish kids today.

Really? :(

Secular Jews who turn out brilliant were almost all raised religious, their children on the other hand - typically average.

Yes thats something I find interesting too, I think one should look beyond two generations [grandparents too can have an influence] to understand the effects of "lack of belief" on the individual. I would predict a lack of understanding beyond the literal and the obvious, based purely on my interactions here.

Really? :(


Yep, sorry. :cool:

I think one should look beyond two generations [grandparents too can have an influence] to understand the effects of "lack of belief" on the individual.

I do agree. There are much more apparent factors at work here than simply being more or less secular. Asian-Americans are even more secular than jews are, they don't recognize less holidays than anybody... and they are fitting into an increasingly higher economic bracket than jews.

That is because they have adopted education and money-making as cultural priorities for themselves.

i don't get why the jews didn't follow jesus when he came along?

Because they didn't believe he was the Messiah. That's their right, not subject to abrogation. Do you understand now?

Probably because people like you can't realize that celebrating a holiday that's antithetical to the 'coexistent' holiday of Hannukah is ridiculous. It stems from the fact that you don't know what Hannukah is. If you're so open minded, why don't you consider rejecting Hellenism for one year instead of Xmas?

There's no self-esteem issues, often, some children do feel a bit left out, seeing as we don't get debt-bearing gifts. It's also a tad bit agitating that people don't understand what "Rejecting Hellenism" means - paradoxically - every single Christmas (that's right, Christ - Mass) time people become increasingly angry at Jews killing their savior.

I remember one Christmas someone asked me if we mourned his birth.
I also remember one Easter someone asked me if we celebrated murdering him.

Good God.

Fucking idiocy. Whoever asked you should not be allowed to vote. Again. Ever.

It's doubly ironic of course in that Jesus' death was the entire bloody point. Ask those stupid fuckers if they get that. Refer them to this forum, to me. Idiots.

Cheski, that article you cite is stating that a higher intelligence is non-existent, meaning that the rumor was surreptitiously propogated by self-conscious jews who wanted a better image for themselves, similarly to the practice of circumcision.

Following your religion is not going to increase your intelligence, cheski. Religiosity is the meaningless factor here. The difference is cultural, not religious. The jews who brought their children directly from Europe and made their homes on Grand Concourse Ave, NY made it a priority in life to ardently aspire to seek higher education because of their belief that while money could be stripped from you, money-making capacity could not be.

You are not a part of that, and neither are any of the jewish kids today. Expressing a forced belief in your religion because you think it will make you intelligent won't change that.

well i like all people regardless of their backgrounds because i look at the individual. That said, there are cultures that buckle down and put their nose to the grindstone. Take tour Asian (chinese, Korean etc.) you tend to see those kids with there noses in the books and they arent too concerend with having fun.

well i like all people regardless of their backgrounds because i look at the individual. That said, there are cultures that buckle down and put their nose to the grindstone. Take tour Asian (chinese, Korean etc.) you tend to see those kids with there noses in the books and they arent too concerend with having fun.

Well for some of us, noses in books is fun!:p

it depends on the child.

Here's something a secular might be able to understand. Say America was subjugated by China, and their values were imposed on us Americans. They then created a holiday celebrating the downfall of America...would you celebrate it?

If you swap China with Europe and make it Columbus day (http://firstnationsurbansurvival.blogspot.com/2009/10/anti-columbus-day-tribute.html), sure, why not?:p

Maybe he didn't qualify as the Moshiach/Mashiach?

What does the Torah say about the Moshiach?

SAM is right.

Out of all the things Jesus may have done, I dont believe he fulfiled any part of the prophecy.

The major thing was uniting and bringing all the Jews back into Israel. At that time most Jews were already in Israel and were united.

The second is he would raise the dead on a sacred burial site I believe is called mound of olives (havent been in A LONG TIME), and even today it is an honor to be buried there.

And even then, after jesus came along his followers pretty much screwed Israel and the Jews over several times.

And when you think about it, it would be more appropriate for the Mossiah to come along now because the Jewish population is spread across the world.

i don't get why the jews didn't follow jesus when he came along?
*************
M*W: Perhaps they didn't see him as the messiah they expected. Perhaps Jesus didn't exist at all.

*************
M*W: Perhaps they didn't see him as the messiah they expected. Perhaps Jesus didn't exist at all.


Jesus was made into a legend. Myth is full of legends.
A current day legend is SuperMan.

Perhaps Jesus didn't exist at all.There is certainly no consensus of scholars on that question. I gather the existence of Mohammed is not certain either, although not nearly as doubtful as Jesus.

There is certainly no consensus of scholars on that question. I gather the existence of Mohammed is not certain either, although not nearly as doubtful as Jesus.
I believe there is enough proof that Both Jesus and Muhammad existed and lived a long life too . If we do not believe this piece of history then why do we bother with the rest of history ?!!!.

There is certainly no consensus of scholars on that question. I gather the existence of Mohammed is not certain either, although not nearly as doubtful as Jesus.

To me the existence is not as important as what they would be if the existed which is human beings just like us.

And just like everybody else that came along claiming to be the messiah or the like. They would have been delusional and/or fraudulent. Not children of god.

It's a holiday about renouncing Judaism...I wouldn't expect a Muslim to celebrate a holiday renouncing Islam, and I wouldn't expect a Christian to celebrate a holiday celebrating renouncing Christianity.I would dance in the streets if there were a holiday to renounce ALL religions.
Cheski, you are acting as though renouncing judaism was the goal of Christmas. It was more of a side effect.Renouncing Judaism was the goal of Christianity and Christmas is the celebration of the (alleged) birth (on the wrong date) of the (alleged) man who (allegedly) founded Christianity. That's hardly a stretch.
Cheski: none of that stuff is real. Christianity, Judaism, Islam -- it's all derived from the same ancient Sumerian mythological crappola. Those three religions are all very closely tied in that all of them have the same basic roots. None of it's authentic, and all of it's a load of nonsense.Well if you're going to get into it, ALL religions are nothing but a collection of archetypes, instinctive images that turn up in all cultures in all eras. They were accidentally programmed into our DNA by a mutation that happened to be carried by Mitochondrial Eve or Y-Chromosome Adam, so now we've all got it. Or maybe not all of us. My family seems to lack it, perhaps after a couple of hundred thousand years a new mutation has occurred.
Besides what's wrong with Hellenism?Hellenism at least has the original pantheon of multiple gods that shows up in every traditional religion. That is a much richer and more useful model of the human spirit than the pathetic Abrahamist one-dimensional model in which everything falls somewhere on a scale between "good" and "evil" and almost all the important figures have penises.

I would dance in the streets if there were a holiday to renounce ALL religions.


Hallelujah to that. :D

i don't get why the jews didn't follow jesus when he came along?

Lots of reasons, a lot of it is because the misunderstanding of the Old Testament. Also, they expected the savior of the universe to come in a little more splendor and glory, they expected the Messiah to conquer the Romans. He didn't, at least, not in the way they expected.

There's just something about singing songs for a day which represents the birth of a man whose followers have caused hundreds of millions of people in your families death, that never caught on in the Jewish world.

Followers of Jesus believe Him. Therefore no follower of Jesus could have killed any Jews because even if they looked upon the Jews as their enamies they would Love them and never seek to do them harm.

What the Jews have seen is not followers of Jesus seeking their suffering but followers of a false religion seeking to discourage Jews from coming to the realisation that Jesus is the Messiah.

It is very hard for a Jew to see Jesus as He is because of the many people who have done them harm in the name of Jesus. In the end that is satans wish too. That the Jews will never seek to know Jesus. So those who teach hatered for the Jews and encourage others to harm the Jews are allied to the one who seeks to keep the Word of God from them.




Can I give you another hint? Idol worship, yeah, that's forbidden.

Agreed.




Here's a few excerpts from a Rabbi discussing the issue:
"Christmas celebrates the birth of the Christian god who came to rescue mankind from the “curse of the Torah.” It is a 24-hour declaration that Judaism is no longer valid."

Jesus did not come to rescue man from the “curse of the Torah.” but to fulfil the Torah.




December 25 is a day on which Jews have been shamed, tortured, and murdered.ncarnations of the most depraved pagan rituals ever practiced on earth.

Yes. But december the 25th was never the birth date of Jesus.





The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).

Nicholas (Santa Clause) was born in Parara, Turkey in 270 CE and later became Bishop of Myra. He died in 345 CE on December 6th. He was only named a saint in the 19th century.



Yeah. The celebration of christmas on the 25th of december is pagan. Nothing new to me there. But this is a creation of that same false religion whom you believe is Christian but is not.




Nicholas was among the most senior bishops who convened the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE and created the New Testament. The text they produced portrayed Jews as “the children of the devil”[11] who sentenced Jesus to death.

Well if this is true then he was one of those who fell to the deception of constantine. Whose first act was to instruct His troops to mark their shields with a sign of the Christians and to fight and kill for him under that sign.

This was in direct rebellion against Jesus call to love ones enemy. The whole genesis of the catholic/orthodox church was built on this initial act of rebellion against the Word of Jesus.

Also they did not produce the "New Testament" all those rightings existed way before the days of constantine and their harlotry with him.




Is it really that difficult to see why any self-respecting Jew might not want to celebrate the day - or for that matter, recognize it? The same author proposes Hitler day, if you make pretty songs and rituals to that - do we have to sing and dance to that one too?

I understand. But irrespective of all the violence and added paganism and all the hatred. You still must look upon the message of Jesus as He gave it and decide do you accept Him or reject Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Probably because people like you can't realize that celebrating a holiday that's antithetical to the 'coexistent' holiday of Hannukah is ridiculous. It stems from the fact that you don't know what Hannukah is. If you're so open minded, why don't you consider rejecting Hellenism for one year instead of Xmas?

There's no self-esteem issues, often, some children do feel a bit left out, seeing as we don't get debt-bearing gifts. It's also a tad bit agitating that people don't understand what "Rejecting Hellenism" means - paradoxically - every single Christmas (that's right, Christ - Mass) time people become increasingly angry at Jews killing their savior.

I remember one Christmas someone asked me if we mourned his birth.
I also remember one Easter someone asked me if we celebrated murdering him.

If you take (Anti-Semitic Comments + Celebration of Renouncing Judaism + Mass Ignorance of Hannukah + [Practically] Public School Requirement to Celebrate our destruction) that typically ='s a few annoyed yiddin.

You seem to think that christians spend all their days thinking about Jews and the sole focus of their religion is a statement of anti-jewishness.

You must be so Jewish centric to think that everyone else's main focus in life is to be Anti-jewish.. Let me tell you that even when i was part of that religion (i used to be a catholic) i never thought much about the Jews at all and at christmas Jews where the last thing on my mind.

The World does not revolve around the Jews or Judaism. The centrepiece of all religions of the world is not their reaction to Judaism.



---

Just because holidays don't mean anything to you, doesn't mean that's true to everyone. Look at the big Jewish holidays; Yom Kippur - day of atonement, Rosh HaShannah - Day of Judgement, Passover - day of freedom, Purim - day of re-accepting the Torah, Hannukah - day of renouncing Hellenism and Greek Culture, Tish B'Av - mourning destruction of temple.

You see, Jewish holidays represent real things, holidays mean something to Jews. When you ask us to celebrate a holiday which is rooted in our destruction we will automatically say no every time.
---

The day is about the birth of Jesus. Once again not anything to do with the destruction of the Jews. Never forget that is was a pagan Roman army that destroyed the Temple and exiled the Jews from isreal. There where no Christians in that legion.




Here's something a secular might be able to understand. Say America was subjugated by China, and their values were imposed on us Americans. They then created a holiday celebrating the downfall of America...would you celebrate it?

False comparison. If the Jews where forced into accepting the values of catholicism / orthodoxy then there would be no Jews in existence today.

And i add.

I do not celebrate christmas. And while i do face some scorn for it. No attempt has ever been made by others to force me to celebrate christmas.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

As for the topic of "intelligance"

Peoples intelligence is not set in concrete at birth. Depending on the environment one grows up in ones inelegance can be increased or decreased within a range.

Cultures can change very rapidly in response to persecution or a sudden drop in social status. I live in Australia and it is a nation that has experienced a lot of immigration over the last 100 years. When people come to Australia they nearly always come suffering a drop in social status and wealth. The strong motivation in all immigrants is to regain their social status and material wealth. Therefore very often immigrant parents will adopt a changed culture with more emphasis on achieving a rise in social status and material wealth through scholastic achievement. So their children are motivated to study and exercise their mental capacities from an early age. Therefore increasing the IQ they end up having because their minds are exercised more vigorously then would have happened had the family remained in their nation of origin.

Persecution also can have the effect of increasing a peoples desire to obtain high achievement in study so as to allow them to quickly recover from the periodical bouts of persecution they experience. Often these episodes of persecution end in the loss of social status and material wealth. Therefore such a culture does well to place learning as a very high priority to help them overcome past episodes of persecution and to prepare for the next episode. If one builds up wealth in excess of ones needs at the present time then one can run with this movable wealth when the next episode of persecution happens.

The Jews have in times past in Europe been excluded from land ownership by law. As land has been a foundational basis of wealth for most peoples in history being excluded from land ownership forced them to become even more reliant on perusing professions and business as roads to material security. Both the professions and business require good education and sharp thinking to succeed.

It is not surprising that historically the Jewish people have succeeded in these areas. They had no choice but to succeed in these areas. The only alternative is to starve and die.

In Australia we see as immigrant communities become established and have recovered their social status and wealth in Australia their Children start to become more average in their scholastic abilities because the sense of urgency that their immigrant grand parents installed into their parents has been dissipated by the sense of security that material gain and social status brings to them.

For the Jewish however this sense of security is often not achieved, They may say to themselves, Yes i have wealth, Yes i have reached the top of my carrier field or Yes i am in the top 10% of the rich of this land. But in the back of their heads they are always waiting for the next time when they will be attacked and see all they have built stolen or smashed and burned to the ground. Therefore the Jewish community is compelled to remain in a permanent state of persecution induced scholastic achievement, Even when they are doing well and when most other communities relax and enjoy the fruits of their achievements the Jews will continue to be driven to higher achievement.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

i don't get why the jews didn't follow jesus when he came along?In addition to all of the other responses to this question which was asked in various forms, there is also another key issue which (perhaps only) I raised earlier in this discussion: It is not at all clear that Jesus was a real historical figure.

The account of Jesus's life, from the virgin birth to the loaves and fishes and all the way through to the resurrection, is a series of miracles. If ever there was an extraordinary assertion, the hypothesis that this person actually lived and this was the true story of his life is certainly one of the most extraordinary of all. By the Rule of Laplace (or Sagan's Law), an extraordinary assertion must be supported by extraordinary evidence before anyone is obliged to treat it with respect.

Of course there were no scientists in the modern sense of the word in those days and Laplace had not been born yet, but the Jews are a skeptical, quarrelsome, argumentative people (I'm not trash-talking them but merely quoting any dozen of the ones I know) who do not believe things they are told without evidence. They would have applied the Rule of Laplace to the story of Jesus. When the evidence was presented, rabbis would have argued over it for years and their discourse would be faithfully recorded in the Talmud.

The fact that someone as important as Jesus is not mentioned in the contemporary Hebrew-language Judaic literature is more than a little puzzling. The first citation is in Greek-language literature written many years after his death.

What are we to make of this? The only conclusion I can draw is that the Jews simply do not believe the story of Jesus. Either he was a totally fictional character or he was a mere mortal who had been blown out of proportion by hearsay. In either case, this was not the Messiah.

Therefore, to the precise question, "Why didn't the Jews follow Jesus when he came along," the precise answer may very well be, "Because Jesus did not actually come along," or alternately, "Jesus lacked the credentials required for the Jews to follow him."

The account of Jesus's life, from the virgin birth to the loaves and fishes and all the way through to the resurrection, is a series of miracles.

There is one basic assumption that I consider faulty here. Were any of these stories told in the lifetime of Jesus? Did they have anything to do with his rejection by the Jews?

To Adstar:

You've posted a bunch of nonsense without reading the thread.

1. I answered the OP
2. Someone asked about Xmas.
3. I responded to that question.
4. Someone else mentions that the difference is "Jews are disobedient"

I could address your comment point by point, but it would be without any success since your conceptual picture of the Torah is completely wrong. For example, you said, "Fulfills the Torah"...well...that doesn't make any sense. 'Sefer Torah' the name for the Torah - means, "Book that gives Law". There's nothing to fulfill, it's the law...period.

There are not many direct prophecies printed in the 5 books which constitute it, only one comes to mind - that's in Moshe's final addressing of the people when he says there will be "Another great prophet" which was Jeremiah, you can tell because its Hebrew is written like that of the Torah as opposed to the other prophets. The majority of the book constitutes "If you do this, I will do this" - "If you don't do this, I will do this" - "Do this, because I said so.". There are no prophecies - and therefore, nothing to be fulfilled.

What you meant to say was
It fulfilled the Tanakh - which was the prophets, judges, and other writings. Well...that's not true either - and that's why Jews reject Christianity, not because Christians were mean to them for 1600 years. What the Christians propose doesn't even make sense. It fulfilled almost none of the prophecies, it didn't change anything... Do you realize that Jews in the first temple period had higher life expectancy and higher quality of life than European Christians in the early Renaissance? How could a prophecy which promises that people will physically live forever decrease life expectancy when it came true? Any prophet who ever went against what the original Torah said was ignored - there's evidence and precedent for this, look in Jeremiah when the other prophets kept saying "No, everything is okay" while Jeremiah said "No...you're all screwed, get ready to be imprisoned." The words spoken by the supposed were spoken hundreds and thousands of years earlier, why is his reiteration of them prophetical - but their original says...wrong? Come on AdStar, if you're going to make an argument, learn what any of the things you're talking about are.

It actually reminds me of Christians in Israel...it's hilarious. Almost all Jews in Jerusalem despite how secular - know the Torah inside and out. These Christians go to Jerusalem and preach Christianity to them...and the Jews most secular people...hobos...'rebels'...all can cite exact verses which they can't respond to. The majority of them hardly even understand their own theology much less the theology that it 'surplanted'. The reason people can accept Christianity as the continuation of Judaism, is because they know nothing about Judaism, and often, Christianity for that matter.

???
Where?

There's only annoyance - we've been in Christian countries for 1600 years and they have miraculously managed to learn nothing about what we believe. Rather they've superimposed their theology on us, I remember being in school as a child and being told about transubstantiation and being ridiculed because I was the only person who thought it was an insane notion, yet 96% of the people around me believed it.

Do you understand what it's like being Jewish? "A man wrote about another man 220 after the first man died who was some how a living deity born of a virgin...and then for 1800 years they killed your ancestors over it and as recently as 60 years ago they slaughtered 6 million over the distinction."
Every day when you buy something someone remarks "Bet you're getting a good deal", or when you don't give money to a homeless person you get a bunch of snide remarks. Or simply walking near the Southern Baptists they call you a Christ killer - Passion of the Christ, great movie.

I was once working and a woman comes in and asks to see my horns, and I didn't feel shocked over it - it happens in the south a lot.

Is it inferiority, or annoyance?

evangelicals don't know shit about their own religion why would they know anything about someone elses.

It's a holiday about renouncing Judaism...I wouldn't expect a Muslim to celebrate a holiday renouncing Islam, and I wouldn't expect a Christian to celebrate a holiday celebrating renouncing Christianity.

If anything most of them probably feel like they're slightly better than you for not practicing pagan acts. Are you even serious? Jews should just be 'tolerant' and celebrate a holiday that renounces their religion...which...ironically...falls VERY close to Hannukah, a holiday about rejecting Hellenism and the idea that we should all just be 'tolerant'?

for someone who bitches about people not understanding your religion perhaps you should get your facts straight when criticing another faith that is not what christmas is about.



your comments that christmas is about rejecting Judaism are crazy. its about celebrating the birth of the messiah. the only reason christmas is at the time of year is it was used to convince germanic pagans to convert by adopting parts of Yule. to secondly christianity is fundementally based in Judaism while not a continuation of Judaism(that would be the jewish faith it self) but an off shoot that grew into a non jewish faith.

evangelicals don't know shit about their own religion why would they know anything about someone elses.
How many Evangelists were convicted of fraud ?. I guess no one is counting !.

for someone who bitches about people not understanding your religion perhaps you should get your facts straight when criticing another faith that is not what christmas is about.


I wasn't bitching, someone said it was rude to not sing Christmas songs.

The birth of the man who brought about a religion which was based in the rejection of another religion - hmm.

CheskiChips-

What did Jesus reject exactly? For it seems to me that the law was nullified by Paul NOT Jesus...

Peace be unto you ;)

CheskiChips-

What did Jesus reject exactly? For it seems to me that the law was nullified by Paul NOT Jesus...

Peace be unto you ;)

I actually agree. But if that's what the Christians believed then they would celebrate Paul's birthday,

The account of Jesus's life, from the virgin birth to the loaves and fishes and all the way through to the resurrection, is a series of miracles. If ever there was an extraordinary assertion, the hypothesis that this person actually lived and this was the true story of his life is certainly one of the most extraordinary of all. By the Rule of Laplace (or Sagan's Law), an extraordinary assertion must be supported by extraordinary evidence before anyone is obliged to treat it with respect.

Must? You are free to treat the account of His Life in any way you like, and we are under no obligation whatsoever to respect, recognize, lend credence to, or abide such rudimentary and inverted coping mechanisms which keep one in a state of perpetual ignorance.

We testify of Jesus’ miraculous Life, Death, and Resurrection sincerely and straightforwardly; there is no hidden agenda or intent to deceive…we simply make known to our fellow man the good news that Jesus Christ “has abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel”. ‘Grasping’ this FACT cannot be accomplished by approaching His Word with a skeptical midset, ‘testing’ It by ‘rules’ predicated upon doubt.

If you cannot be honest with yourself, the Honesty with which such statements are put forth (and in which, they find their Genesis) simply will not resonate within.

As He says: "He who has ears to hear let him hear."

I actually agree. But if that's what the Christians believed then they would celebrate Paul's birthday,

your a hypocrite you demand people respect your interpertation of judiasm and than you have attacked christianity with baseless bull shit.

I wasn't bitching, someone said it was rude to not sing Christmas songs.

The birth of the man who brought about a religion which was based in the rejection of another religion - hmm.

Christianity wasn't based on the rejection of Judaism. How in the hell did you come to the conclusion that christianity is based on the rejection of Judaism.

just because the evangelicals reject where their faith came from doesn't mean all christians do.

pjdude; you're total lack of comprehension, disrespectful attitude, and sheer ignorance of the world around you shocks me. I didn't attack anyone and no intelligent person would think I did.

Let's listen to Ann Coulter on the topic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wnPHFSdrME#t=2m58s.
Donny's face says it all.

I actually agree. But if that's what the Christians believed then they would celebrate Paul's birthday,

Ok I see your point...I think Paul has corrupted everything Jesus ever taught and changed his message to the point of no return..

For example when Jesus says that the law must remain until 'all is fulfilled' they interpret it as- Jesus was perfect (i.e completely followed the law)- means he has fulfilled it....

But any person who even thinks about this will find the Christian interpretation as stupid- or at least the interpretation of Paul which is the same as what Christians accept.

Law is created for a purpose- God (you have problem me using this?) didn't create the Law without a purpose- One of those purposes would be that following the Law (100%) would yield them perfect in the sight of God... But the purpose was for all of Humanity.... No one can come up and tell me that the Law was for a single person- the purpose of the Law was for the betterment of Humanity.

Has that purpose been fulfilled? No! When will it be fulfilled? When there is no human because as long as there is humanity there will be purpose to the Law.. That is why Jesus said that not one jot will pass away until all is fulfilled.

If someone can come up and tell me that the purpose of the Law has been fulfilled because of someone came and followed all of it- he is essentially telling me that the purpose of the law was to create only 1 perfect human and not for all of humanity- which I find as a ridiculous claim and in all of Judaism this was never the case.

Jesus 'fulfilled' it- but that is a personal fulfillment- but the purpose of the Law was for everyone- which is not fulfilled.

On a deeper reading we see that Jesus was talking about things 'coming to pass'- and he was talking about the complete OT- in other words there are prophecies in the OT that must be fulfilled which makes sense. All prophecies must come true before 'heaven and earth' pass away- this is common sense. Has everything in the OT come to pass? NO! So everything in it is still applicable- yes that includes the Ten Commandments :D

And he says it in different ways, basically stating the many things that must be fulfilled... Everything about "Me" the Messiah must be fulfilled.. Everything of the Teachings of Moses must be fulfilled... Everything (in general) in the OT must come to pass....

In no stretch of the mind can one say any of this has happened... Then you have Paul come along and take the easy way out and say - You're all free, lets all become lawless!

Peace be unto you ;)

I wasn't bitching, someone said it was rude to not sing Christmas songs.

The birth of the man who brought about a religion which was based in the rejection of another religion - hmm.

But it *is* rude. It's an expression of you not being able to recognize how secular a holiday Christmas is to the majority of the people singing those songs, and then basing your religious insecurities upon that. :cool:

Christianity wasn't based on the rejection of Judaism. How in the hell did you come to the conclusion that christianity is based on the rejection of Judaism.

just because the evangelicals reject where their faith came from doesn't mean all christians do.


I very much agree. As I mentioned earlier, I don't practice either religion. However, in no way do Christians celebrate the rejection of Judaism during Christmas or any other time of the year. If you have an open enough mind, then sit in on a mass somewhere. The chance that Jews will even be mentioned is exceedingly slim. They are far and away from the minds of most Christians.

Christians on the other hand, seem to be very much on the minds of Jews at all times. Again, it's that built-in, generational inferiority complex that Jews have developed and perpetuated among their children. Many Jews would like to say that that inferiority complex is enforced on them externally. However, it is not.

Stop saying I have an inferiority complex, I think I'm better than you - and I barely know you.

Stop saying I have an inferiority complex, I think I'm better than you - and I barely know you.

I don't believe you think that, cheski. You're jewish, and in this thread and you have exhibited all the signs and symptoms of the inferior-feeling breed of jew.


pjdude; you're total lack of comprehension, disrespectful attitude, and sheer ignorance of the world around you shocks me. I didn't attack anyone and no intelligent person would think I did.

Let's listen to Ann Coulter on the topic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wnPHFSdrME#t=2m58s.
Donny's face says it all.


Lol, "Christians are perfected jews." I love that. She says it because she knows it's a soft spot for jews. They internalize that stuff and view Christian ideas as insults. BTW, if you ever want to get a Jewish person angry, just refer to Jesus as "King of the Jews."

That's another one that gets them seriously (and amusingly) PO'ed. When that term was coined, it wasn't meant as a slight. That is how they view it, though. :cool:

ואתה השכל לאומוויסנדיק גוי

Lol, "Christians are perfected jews." I love that. She says it because she knows it's a soft spot for jews. They internalize that stuff and view Christian ideas as insults. BTW, if you ever want to get a Jewish person angry, just refer to Jesus as "King of the Jews."

That's another one that gets them seriously (and amusingly) PO'ed. When that term was coined, it wasn't meant as a slight. That is how they view it, though. :cool:

Well, it was meant as a slight against him, because they didn't feel that He was. Which, He wasn't. Eh, it's complicated. If you believe in Him, then he was.

pjdude; you're total lack of comprehension, disrespectful attitude, and sheer ignorance of the world around you shocks me. I didn't attack anyone and no intelligent person would think I did.

Let's listen to Ann Coulter on the topic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wnPHFSdrME#t=2m58s.
Donny's face says it all.
waah waah wahh the baby got called on his bullshit. Disresepectful is thinking you know more about other people than they do. I can comprehend fine and I'm not ignorant. though like most people on your side of the isle you project. for reading comp where did I say you attacked anyone I didn't I said you attacked christianity. you have been disrespectful to all who have tried to coorect you well ignorant view of christianity. rather than deal with facts you turned this thread into a rant on how people hate jews grow the fuck up.





and its your not you're which is a contraction for you are.

Stop saying I have an inferiority complex, I think I'm better than you - and I barely know you.

well that explains a lot of your world views.

You should try that argument with Sam, PJ.

waah waah wahh the baby got called on his bullshit. Disresepectful is thinking you know more about other people than they do. I can comprehend fine and I'm not ignorant. though like most people on your side of the isle you project. for reading comp where did I say you attacked anyone I didn't I said you attacked christianity. you have been disrespectful to all who have tried to coorect you well ignorant view of christianity. rather than deal with facts you turned this thread into a rant on how people hate jews grow the fuck up.





and its your not you're which is a contraction for you are.
Hey pjdude, could you be a little less coherent? You just follow me around from post to post spouting incoherences and non-sequitur's about everything. You post on my profile how I'm a bigot after I ignore you, say things like "that's why everyone hates Jews" and then claim to not be an anti-Semite. You harass fedr808, otheapd and make equally inane arguments with Spidergoat, and as far as I am aware you don't espouse such (unrelenting) inanity with anyone else. You come into a thread you know nothing about, as an atheist whose never read either parties testament thoroughly you still voice your irrelevant opinion. You ironically critique my misspelling while not using (nearly) a single capitalization. Further...you support Anne Coulter in espousing her garbage after she clearly supports the view I of Christianity I had previously projected. Well if I met you face to face - I would probably pop you in the jaw you moron. You can go to hell.

Hey pjdude, could you be a little less coherent? You never change. its perfectly coherent.
You just follow me around from post to post spouting incoherences and non-sequitur's about everything. You mean facts?
You post on my profile how I'm a bigot after I ignore you,??? you mean after you post on your profile saying I am being a dick and that I don't what a bigot is( i its someone like you who is prejudiced against peoiple do to race ethnicity religion gender age sexual orinatation) and really your going to whine about this after your have continuely trolled my vistor page by calling me pjfood. So I am not allowed to defend my self from your bullshit but you get to troll. well its consistent with your ussually double standard arguing.
say things like "that's why everyone hates Jews" and then claim to not be an anti-Semite. ITs not anti semitic to point out a reason and like most radical pro Israel people you've made anti semite into a meaning less phrase.
You harass fedr808, otheapd and make equally inane arguments with Spidergoat, harass?? if you mean refute bad arguments thatn yes and inane arguments sorry you have a problem I want the law to be followed in respect to Israel and am willing to argue that point but that's not inanity. inanity is thinking you know more about than they do od themselves.
and as far as I am aware you don't espouse such (unrelenting) inanity with anyone else. ?? than clearly you haven't been reading my posts. and their is nothing Inane about my posts. Just because you can't or won't understand them or hate that some one would dare attempt to correct falsehoods you utter doesn't make them lack meaning or sense.
You come into a thread you know nothing about, as an atheist whose never read either parties testament thoroughly you still voice your irrelevant opinion.I'm not an athiest. and your right I only a confirmed catholic who spent 12 years in sunday school, and went to christmas mass every year for 25 years(I'm 25 this year) but your right I don't know anything about christianity and you as a jew who hates chistianity and has appartently basing their opinion on evgelical christians and jewish scholars who base all they know about on them and not more mainstream not extreme christians know every thing about.
You ironically critique my misspelling while not using (nearly) a single capitalization. only reason I have done so is you have previosly made comments about my spelling and grammer.
Further...you support Anne Coulter in espousing her garbage after she clearly supports the view I of Christianity I had previously projected. I support ann coulter and her views?? what fucked up alternate reality are you from I despise coulter with a passion. One of the reasons for the comment you say I supports. and secondly getting info from coulter is stupid.
Well if I met you face to face - I would probably pop you in the jaw you moron. you probably would. you strike me as the type of person who would violently attack someone for being able to poke holes in your beliefs.
You can go to hell.can't don't believe in hell. I later in life rejected the abrahamic faiths, mainly for the inhernet violence and condoning violence you seem all to willing to embrace, for the neo pagan faiths.



now you childish, self abosrbed, and self rightous twit next time you want to rant and rave about something know what your talking about. You don't know shit about christmas, christianity, or me.

i don't get why the jews didn't follow jesus when he came along?

Uh. It WAS Jews and Gentiles that he taught, many Jews decided to keep their religion. Get your facts straight.

after your have continuely trolled my vistor page by calling me pjfood. So I am not allowed to defend my self from your bullshit but you get to troll.

But he's quite right: you don't understand what bigotry is. You sling it about in dearth of trying to understand what the other person is saying. It's not uncommon, I suppose, but neither is it commendable.

But he's quite right: you don't understand what bigotry is. You sling it about in dearth of trying to understand what the other person is saying. It's not uncommon, I suppose, but neither is it commendable.

No he's not. I understand what it means and yes i understand what people are saying. he's wrong and so are you. bigotry is prejudice against a person or people do to their race,ethnicity, religion, sex, sexual orinatation, age, and and/or nationality which both of you too show.

Uh. It WAS Jews and Gentiles that he taught, many Jews decided to keep their religion. Get your facts straight.

Strictly speaking he only taught Jews and considered himself one.

But it *is* rude. It's an expression of you not being able to recognize how secular a holiday Christmas is to the majority of the people singing those songs, and then basing your religious insecurities upon that. :cool:
Secular ?. How ?.
No religious festive is secular is it ?........:confused: .

Strictly speaking he only taught Jews and considered himself one.

Yes, but he did talk to the gentiles...

No he's not. I understand what it means and yes i understand what people are saying. he's wrong and so are you.

Illustrate your evidence, then. Or retract your libel.

Is your damnation of theists - well, only of Jews and Christians - bigotry? Have I attacked Islam, or Muslims, or anything other than conservative interpretations of Islam and their proponents? Try. Come on, it should be easy. 20 questions. Try it.

It amazes me that anyone claiming to such a death grip on reality should have such a tiny comprehension of other people, their actually documented arguments and beliefs.

Illustrate your evidence, then. Or retract your libel.libel? nice first is true second their no intent to malign your chracter


Is your damnation of theists - well, only of Jews and Christians - bigotry? Have I attacked Islam, or Muslims, or anything other than conservative interpretations of Islam and their proponents? Try. Come on, it should be easy. 20 questions. Try it. I have made my displeasure of other faiths including islam well known. and yes you have


It amazes me that anyone claiming to such a death grip on reality should have such a tiny comprehension of other people, their actually documented arguments and beliefs. your as bad as cheski waah waah you don't understand me or what I am saying and than you show your complete ignorance about the person your talking about.



Their is no point in engaging you any longer it just gives more chances to do what you do best troll and derail threads.

libel? nice first is true second their no intent to malign your chracter

All right, I confess. I confess that I have not the foggiest idea what this sentence is meant to convey.


I have made my displeasure of other faiths including islam well known. and yes you have

Both lies. Next.


Their is no point in engaging you any longer it just gives more chances to do what you do best troll and derail threads.

Nothing trolling about demanding an apology about maligning my character, or disputing your basic grasp of facts.

There is one basic assumption that I consider faulty here. Were any of these stories told in the lifetime of Jesus?We have no idea. They were written down after the end of his alleged lifetime.
Did they have anything to do with his rejection by the Jews?The Jews' rejection of the alleged person of Jesus is not documented. There are absolutely no records of his existence, of any of the events associated with it, or of anyone's reaction to it. The figure of Jesus only turns up in writings made after he is said to have died.

The most charitable interpretation of this gigantic vacuum is that it wasn't until after his death that people began to say, "Hey wait a minute, was that dude the Messiah?" And someone else replied, "You mean the guy whose mother was a virgin, the one whose corpse was reanimated? Wow, you could be right. It all fits together. How come we didn't think of that at the time?"

I guess there were so many virgin births and revived corpses in those days that this particular one didn't get any news coverage.

If you're saying that Jesus could have been an ordinary mortal and the stories of the virgin birth and the resurrection are fanciful apocrypha after the fact, then you're taking my second option, which is that Jesus may have been a real person but his story is exaggerated. As I said, this could be true. In that case the Jews would have erred on the side of skepticism and not believed it.

Biblical scholars say that most of the first Christians must have been Jews, based on the demographics stated and implied in the New Testament. However, the New Testament was not written until afterward. The only written accounts of the events upon which Christianity was founded are in its holy book, and they were not written until quite a few years afterward.
Must? You are free to treat the account of His Life in any way you like, and we are under no obligation whatsoever to respect, recognize, lend credence to, or abide such rudimentary and inverted coping mechanisms which keep one in a state of perpetual ignorance.This is a place of science and you are guests here whom we tolerate so long as you behave yourselves. Referring to people who adhere to the scientific method as "ignorant" is not a good way to have your invitation renewed. You have all the rest of the world's websites on which to discuss your fairytales as though they were true. This one is ours and we call fairytales metaphors.
We testify of Jesus’ miraculous Life, Death, and Resurrection sincerely and straightforwardly; there is no hidden agenda or intent to deceive…we simply make known to our fellow man the good news that Jesus Christ “has abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel”. ‘Grasping’ this FACT cannot be accomplished by approaching His Word with a skeptical midset, ‘testing’ It by ‘rules’ predicated upon doubt.In that case you have foresworn science so you have no business here. Every hypothesis must be supported by evidence and you just admitted that you have none. Nonetheless you are welcome to stay so long as you restrict your antiscientific banter to this one subforum, where the rules of SciForums are relaxed.

Nonetheless this exchange illustrates the usefulness of allowing religionists to speak here. This post has answered our question: There truly is no evidence for Jesus's life or any of the associated events, and that is why Jews (and many of the rest of us) don't believe the story, much less convert to the religion that is based upon it.