I didn't realize SL was from England - oops. I agree with you, Oxygen. People hold beliefs because they believe it is the best choice, and of course they want their child to believe what they think is best for them. It's natural. The more responsible parents, I think, will offer the alternative viewpoints to whatever beliefs they hold. It gives the child an opporunity to experience the variety of thought that's out there, and better equip her for what she will face in the real world.
Snakelord: I think the thing to be careful about is that your daughter doesn't get the impression that religious services or "worship" is some kind of mystical, intriguing "forbidden fruit". Because, if she is sheltered from all religious observances, then you'll probably find that when she is a teenager she will suddenly "discover" religion for herself, and may think it holds all the answers. The best innoculation against religion is to be forcibly exposed to it. And probably, exposure to more beliefs is better - especially incompatible ones. Perhaps ask the school to take all the kids to Jewish "worship" one day, then to Muslim worship the next day, then Hindu, then Pentecostal, etc.
Note that in England "public school" means what "private school" means in Australia and (I think) America.
Snakelord, you should alert the local authorities about what your school is doing. Because in the constitution there is something called seperation of church and state, and the school could get in huge trouble for violating this law.
Oh - dear .... When I first read your letter , I thought you lived in the US bible belt or in the Vatican State .... after looking at your profile I realised it is England. So I googled it : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4693129.stm http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_060614worship.shtml It is mandatory to worship daily - about 51 % christian worship and 49 % worshipping of other religions (in average) ... And it looks like, you are not the only one having a problem with it (link 2) I might not be the best advicer ( I am not an atheist) - but it seems that you have 2 choices : Either letting your daughter worship , with the other kids , and then "counter indoctrinate " her at home - letting her go in a school where all the other children worships except her, might let her feel left outside .... and forbidding her something, might have a lure in itself - some children feel attracted to forbidden things ...... with a little luck she might turn out all right .... Or you could try to find one of those non-faith schools mentioned in link 1 , where the teachers obviously don´t care about the law - so your daughter don´t have to worship ...... A third alternative would be to try to change the law ...... probably a big job ... perhaps the EU legislation or the laws of human rights , might provide you with a loop hole ..... Anyway good luck Snakelord - please remember one thing , children are more reselient than many people think - she might very well turn out to be an atheist even though she has to worship.... especially if you serve her the idea , that worshipping is something she has to do - every time she wants to do something else - then worshipping turns into something really booooring ... (the boomerang effect ) ......
Heyyyyy - just read link number one again : " Parents can withdraw their pupils from collective worship without giving a reason " Show your school that link - you are homefree , man :m: Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (I just skimmed through a lot of links before posting 2 of the best - I didn´t read it all , untill after posting them here)
I understand that and agree with you James - and while I have no quarrel with actual religious education this, to me, seems a bit too much and is quite worrying. I've asked the head teacher if I would be allowed to at least witness one of these daily prayer sessions to see exactly what goes on which might perhaps help ease my mind, but I did hear that they made the children stand up in assembly and say "dear god thank you for looking after us", (this was when she was 5). Personally I have a big problem with that and what I'm trying to do is find a fair middle ground - an area where people are not trying to indoctrinate my child, but my child can learn and at be exposed to religion from an educational point of view. I dunno.. Yeah, you're right.. I'd just rather this all be done at a time when she's that little bit older so she can question it. Perhaps that's just me being a worrying father, but 7 just seems wrong.
I'm shocked that it IS law in England for schools to incorporate religious worship. Living in a former British owned state myself, I imagine a similar law is written here but I had absolutely no problem here with any such law whether it exists or not. It was indeed mandatory that the school have a "religious instruction" or RI period once a week, however, students who did not "belong to a religion" as the teachers had put it, were encouraged to use this time as study time in the library. As for your daughter Snakelord...she should actually hold a position of power and privelege if I remember my childhood correctly. Her friends will regard her as a leader. Why? Because she got to SKIP boring old stuffy 'church'!! Many of my friends were like "wooww you got to skip, how cool!" or "whoa you're really lucky". As much as theists love to delude themselves and program their children, kids by and large do NOT like any sort of formal church regiment. At age 11/12/13 (which were my ages when RI was included in student curriculum), I never told my parents I skipped these periods. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Them being catholic and all...but the point being that I was the one that had the power to choose not to participate.
Home schooled anyone? I was doctrinated as a child, first catholic and on and on, untill I was 21 I was babtist by then, I suppose that I was not a core die hard religious person anyhow, the slide to atheism came easily. SL I think James gave the best advise, let her be exposed to as much religious rhetoric as posible, get active in school and make sure the kids are exposed to all sorts of different religious sects, this will defenetly make religious beliefs silly as they truly are! One god and thousand religions just doesn't make any sense, teach her history and show how these different sects are in constant war with each other, and how that has not changed. Dont understimate the mind of a child, you'd be surprised how much she will question each time, you "counter" educate her about religion rhetoric.
SnakeLord, I'm afraid that's not gonna happen. She is going to rebel against your totalitarian control, as she becomes a teenager, and do the things you didn't want her to do throughout her young life. As for indoctrination, you cannot avoid that. So a seven year old has no intelligence or sense of discrimination? Talk about victorian dad. Enter victorian dad. What if she decides she wants to be a christian or a muslim, what would you do about it? Whose isn't? You act as though you know what's what. For all you know she may be far more intelligent than you, but fearful of your intolerent disposition. The thing is, you don't know any better than she does, about the reality of life (outside your day to day struggle for a reassuring existence). Many people went to schools (in the past) with far stricter religious dicipline, in fact it was the norm, at one time, in the UK, yet the real idiots who wreak havoc, causing major concern and fear, in UK society, on a day to to day basis especially come the weekend, are people who are definately non-religious. Is it not a fact that students who recieved eduction via a faith school, are statistically superior to their secular counter-parts? Value is something you must glean, as far as I am concerned everything I say on these forums have some value. Then why don't you take her out of that establishment, and place her in a secular establishment, where they think like you? Jan.
In short, their selection procedure is more elitist. It means that they take on more capable students therefore have better results, not that they are better schools. They select better students, normally from more well-off families: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/faithschools.html#Better
KennyJC, He has an option, he can take her out of that school, and place her in a secular institute. All children in the UK have that freedom. No they don't. That is the problem with state education, the reason why UK students are increasingly becoming the dumbest in Europe, because they don't listen. They "aren't bovvered" The UK is an atheist country, there is no mainstrem media outlet, at all, which covers religion, other than to bash it. Not all priests actually believe in God, what-to-speak of devotion to God, just listen to the head of the church. No their not, that is , unless you can provide some kind of evidence to back up that statement, that is clap-trap. It most certainly not a part of British law (to my knowledge anyways), and if it is the policy of the particular school, then so be it, move to another one. I bet you find most of these in city-centres all over Britain on the weekends. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I'm sorry but that's nonsense, people generally spend their time working, and socialising in Britain, and tend to discuss religion when it comes on the telly. And you can guarentee that there in nothing positive, whatsoever, being beamed into the consciousness of brits. I don't, this is atheist country. You're not from the UK are you? Jan.
Then he should think himself lucky and shut up, or take his daughter out of that school. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Jan.
Why not teach religious education as I was taught in school? We didn't have to worship or practice any one faith but instead were given the chance to learn about several religions. In my primary school we had occasional visits from a local vicar, but again it was to educate us on the history of Christianity (not during lesson time), not indoctrinate us or ask us to pray. During the run up to Christmas we spent more time learning the nativity story, which in turn led to us reading certain passages from the Bible and reciting the Lords Prayer, but it was never taught as historical fact. For the record I'm an atheist.
I put it to you that you cannot remember your childhood. The majority of children dislike the regiment of church/temple. If we started a poll, and we truthfully answered it, I'll bet that the majority of us did not like those stuffy boring procedures. I find it hilarious that you even think that a rebellious teenager would become religious to SPITE an athiest parent. As for indoctrination, YES he can stop it. He can't stop exposure; however as a good dad, Snakelord can place religions in historical perspective, especially if the school(s) don't seem willing to. Snakelord does not strike me as a dad who'd pressure his daughter to remove herself from religion or even be belligerent toward his child about it. I imagine he is much more harsh on the school's administration. I gather that when the religious brainwashing goes on, all the child knows is dad has escorted her quietly from something that's very boring. Yay dad! This was what you call a lack of freedom of speech. Didn't Islamic fundamentalists ahem harass England recently? They count as religious to me. This is also what I like to call selective statistics. I'm sure this study was based on oh, 137 students. Or let's be reasonable...maybe 332. A more accurate study of this will include scores of thousands of SUCCESSFUL professionals and their alma maters. A statistically accurate study with a definitive answer would result in an (at least) 51% of ALL successful professionals coming from one or the other type of school. Other than that, extrapolating an answer from a few hundred students is statistically useless. Actually Snakelord, why don't you?
Totalitarian control? Lol, get a grip. Besides, your statement is irrelevant. She's more than free to rebel against my 'totalitarian control', my statement that I wont let others indoctrinate her still stands regardless to that. She gets the 'education' aspect just like every other child but without having to bow down and kiss godly testicles because someone else tells her to. You're really not paying attention, and nor do you seemingly know me well enough to have any say in anything. I want my daughter to do in life whatever she wants. What I feel on the matter is irrelevant - she is free to do whatever she wants. Of course right now she is 7 and so I have to make some decisions based on what I consider harmful and dangerous. If she turned round to me and said she wanted to pray then fine, she can go do it - be it to jesus, brahma or Lenny the leprechaun. She has expressed no interest in it, indeed has told me she doesn't believe in gods and whatnot - so what in the world makes you think I would have her school force her into it? My argument is not with the education it is with the forced worship - which is why, (to go back to my original post), I stopped her from going to church/synagogue and why I have issue with forced daily worship. I can try. Victorian dads were notorious for believing their kids had no intelligence? Lol. Anyway, you're being silly - and you know it, which is why you only quoted the first bit. It goes on to say "If someone makes her worship who is she to argue against it, publically stand up for her rights, or tell the teachers that worship of sky beings is for the deluded?" Now, kids can be intelligent, but that is not the point of what I was saying. Enough with the silliness please. Ah, so when "she" decides as opposed to the school deciding? Now you're perhaps starting to understand my argument. Congratulations. To answer the question she can do whatever she wants when she decides she wants to. The same right is not afforded to her school. When my daughter gets a dodgy burger or a broken toy she is not one to make a complaint, know her legal rights concerning returns etc. I on the other hand take the item back, get a refund - an exchange, a formal letter of apology, (and with banks it's usually a few nice bottles of wine). If the school tell her to do something she will do it - unaware of her legal rights to be excused or even her legal right to dispute the issue. Many people know nothing about the law and so when faced with court someone else does all the work for them while they write cheques and look apologetic. This is no different. I know the system, I know the law, I know how to stand up for the rights of those that are too young and inexperienced to do so. This includes saving my daughter from forced religious worship. If she then expresses an interest in going to this forced daily worship then it is no longer forced, but a personal choice and she can by all means go and pray to whatever sky being takes her fancy. As far as I can gather she much prefers to watch Pokemon or play ps2. And you act as though you know what's what with me and my girls. My daughter and I are pretty much inseparable - and while I afford her the freedom to do whatever she wants, I also have the responsibility to make certain decisions when I feel she cannot voice her opinions, wishes and rights. As far as the synagogue was concerned she didn't want to go anyway because they were forced to wear dresses - so while our motivation was different, the outcome was the same - she didn't go. Again she express absolutely no interest whatsoever in going to a church to praise god and so stayed at home. I'm not "intolerant" in any way whatsoever, but I will argue with those that feel they have the right to force my daughter into doing something. She's not a slave and her beliefs and focus of worship should be based upon her wants and beliefs instead of her schools or the governments. You'd be wise to spend some time reflecting upon what intolerance is, and how it is not a valid comment right here. Perhaps not but it isn't of relevance. I'm not stopping her from believing whatever she wants to believe, I am stopping her school from forcing her what to believe. Pay attention. 'Wrecking havoc' is entirely irrelevant to anything I have said. My girl can wreck havoc all she wants - its when someone tells her she must wreck havoc that I have a problem. It's a very simple concept, try to keep up. First I would urge extreme caution when using the word 'fact'. Secondly statistically superior in what way? In not wrecking havoc? Superior worshippers? Superior at water polo? What? I want her to get educated, just not force indoctrinated. The school I sent her to is not a religious one and I didn't realise or know that 'daily worship of a wholly christian nature' was on the agenda. I am currently looking at alternatives that provide the education without the indoctrination. ------- MY daughter will be the first person in history to provide some evidence? Yee hawww. To answer the statement: No.
Enterprise, There are lots of things we don't like. Even more hilarious than this point? Seriously though, what signigicance does the title "atheist" have within this context? Indoctrination is indoctrination, religious or otherwise. His perspective on religion, historical or otherwise, may not be correct. I can only go off his cyber character. He seems harsh, period. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Seriously, the best thing he can do is put his daughter into a nice secular school. Hmmm, how triumphant. I can't say, as I didn't know any of the participants. Any ideas as to why they harassed England? You may be right, but who really cares? Well go on snakelord, answer the person...why don't you? Jan.
I responded to your post before his and answered the question for both of you satisfactorily: "I want her to get educated, just not force indoctrinated. The school I sent her to is not a religious one and I didn't realise or know that 'daily worship of a wholly christian nature' was on the agenda. I am currently looking at alternatives that provide the education without the indoctrination." Last sentence might help. Your apology is accepted. It is. I'm quite certain that if satanic worship was forced in school you'd pull your child out of it and feel quite triumphant knowing that you've managed to save your daughter from.. if not forced indoctrination.. then at least complete idiocy and yet for some reason you rebuke me for doing the very same. The problem right now is that you want to attack me. You're not thinking about the issue, you're just thinking about the opportunity to condemn an atheist. You preach "intolerance", "victorian dad" and your dodgy 'facts' without actually caring or considering the actual issue. The attack only comes due to your bias. You are a christian, but I assure you that if your childs school was forcing your child to be an atheist you'd be going through the exact same motions as I. It's ok though, you'll never have to cross that bridge because the schools are not forcing your child to be an atheist. They are trying to force my child to be a christian. If you actually gave it a moments unbiased consideration you'd see the inherent problem in it.
