Intrinsic Value

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by wesmorris, Dec 7, 2007.

  1. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    I concur. We can never know what objective reality is or what it is like. We can only know that it exists.
    -The senses are imperfect.
    -The brain interprets data from the senses so that it becomes useful and discards data it doesn't need or can't process.
    -Person A cannot experience objective reality in exactly the same way as person B.
    -The subjective reality of person A is not exactly the same as the subjective reality of person B.
    -But the subjective reality of person A is similar to the subjective reality of person B.
    -In this way one can sketch a picture of what objective reality must be like. But we can never know if it's accurate or not. We can also conclude from this that person A build his subjective reality on the same objective reality as person B did.
    -Therefor objective reality exists and is 'how things really are' but is at the same time unknowable.
     
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  3. Gustav Banned Banned

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    yes
    at the initial nanosecond of waking there is a direct perception of self....a thought....any thought. the conceptualization is subsequent to that initial and direct perception

    "i" is a singular thought. one without elaboration. an undefined perception
    "exist" is the conceptualization of that thought. the imposition of an identity and the localization of said identity somewhere

    there is a process
    the genesis of gustav outlined it
    this outline contained the above

    it was neither affirmed nor denied by others
    comment please
    i dislike enduring delusions
     
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  5. Gustav Banned Banned

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    the "waking" state is up for grabs
    so is the "nanosecond"

    clumsy but sufficient i think
    refine if required

    the "self" too cos that implies identity
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
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  7. Gustav Banned Banned

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    a fragment of a thought
     
  8. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    If, then.

    You are dealing with potentialities here, not with certainties.
    The two shouldn't be confused.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  9. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    This can also be explained as identifying with consciousness (as in "I am conscious", "I am awake"), not necessarily of direct perception of self.
    When there is a strong identification with consciousness, the perception of individual thoughts can seem sharp.

    And also, while we can say "I am sitting", "I am reading", "I am not sitting", "I am not reading", we can only meaningfully say "I am conscious", but we cannot meaningfully say "I am not conscious". Consciousness seems to be a primary, so this is another reason why the identification with consciousness seems to be "who I really am", the "self".

    But if consciousness is our true self, then why aren't we aware of it 24/7?
    How can the self sleep? If it were a self, then it would have to be aware of itself 24/7, would it not?


    And this is crucial, I think - that the conceptualization is subsequent. If it is subsequent, then how can it be adequate? How can we know it is adequate?

    I don't think we can know something is adequate, unless we know that something to be adequate right on the spot, non-subsequent.
    Whatever is subsequent, is a narrative that might be true, that might be adequate, or not.


    I commented on it earlier -
    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1643856&postcount=187


    How do you know you are delusional?
    What are the mechanisms, criteria etc. that are employed in order to evaluate something to be a "delusion"?
     
  10. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    Do you meditate?

    I find that states similar to that of waking in the morning can be attained with concentration meditation.
     
  11. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    I've made no such assumption; I'd rather that each pair of terms be used separately, and not in the same context.

    Although there might be an "objective personal element". A version of the concept of "soul" might cover that.
     
  12. Gustav Banned Banned

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    dr spock cannot explain away my narrative derived thru introspection. i find that bogus, foolhardy and extremely condescending.

    my experience is written off as dynamics of child rearing. the formation of personality. check yourself green. my intellect is not biologically nor culturally determined. it is an exercise in free will.

    you assert introspection is for solving mundane problems. i hold it to be an examination of the thought process, eliminating all extraneous influences, resulting in a perception of thought at its initial stages

    if chocolate affects disposition, know that. take it into account and eliminate the bogus influence. that is not you.

    introspection is an an exercise in intellect thru free will
    cos i am not a fucking zombie
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  13. Gustav Banned Banned

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    meditation is the utilization of a rational and logical mode of thinking. it is hardly mystical
     
  14. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    Then you must be a god, a heavenly creature.


    That's not exactly what I said. I said For the most part, for me, introspection is about finding ways to solve my problems. Whatever metaphysical theories I entertain or develop in the process, is only circumstantial.
     
  15. Gustav Banned Banned

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    or conversely, you a zombie

    pardon
    my point still holds
     
  16. Gustav Banned Banned

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    what do you know of me, green?
    do a bio based on my posts
     
  17. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    Yessssscrutinyissssaterriblething!

    Oh, my precioussss!
    We've lost it! It abandoned us!
     
  18. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    Anyone asserting something like "my intellect is not biologically nor culturally determined. it is an exercise in free will" would pass for a god or a heavenly creature. In fact, this probably means most people.

    Thisss ssself, the preciousss!
    Almost everyone claims to have it, many people desperately want it, nobody can really prove it.


    I was just thinking the other day how little you disclose of yourself, actually.
    And whatever specifics you do name, seem to hang in the air, one wonders whether you really meant it, or how it is to fit with the way you present yourself here.

    A biography of you - I wouldn't attempt that, I don't know enough info for that.
     
  19. Gustav Banned Banned

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    that is simply not the case. most people say everything is relative. their determinants are externally imposed. sub fucking humans


    read up on godel. there is nothing mystical about this limitation


    do you then get the fucking point?
    you bravely do a number on me via dr spock and now confess ignorance. what foolhardy arrogance.
     
  20. Gustav Banned Banned

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    what the fuck do you mean by strong identification? semantical bullshit! i offered up some terms i utilized in order to show that i find it inadequate to describe the experience.

    self is a conceptualization. it is a developed thought. "i am conscious" is self referential thus redundant. as is "i am awake". useless semantical bullshit. one is too far gone into the thought process



    i repeat, the "waking" state is up for grabs. it is for mere convenience i adopt it. that and the fact that i do not know any better

    24/7? so there is no fucking "self" now? is that what you are implying? who the fuck is posting as "green"?

    dragging in dream states complicates. i could still say the same shit but that would require us to drag in an issue not fully understood. it really is fucking irrelevant. a thought remains a thought. awake or dreaming. why do you fucking drag up this shit?
    furthermore, fuck the mind/body duality and dynamics. the body itself is a mind altering substance. take it into account when attempting to formulate any theories of the mind. then dismiss!


    incoherent semantical bullshit. do you mean the initial perception is inadequate? my assertion is on very shaky ground. i mean, any perception requires a perceiver. does that not imply we must have a concept of this thing that perceives?

    ja, gustav meets godel


    you fucks decide. i have no reference points in my subjective experience. logic means nothing if axioms are bogus. thru our shared reality (sci fucking forums) other subjective experiences weigh in and find a goddamn common ground. a stinking fucking objective take on fucking shit!@^(*^
     
  21. Gustav Banned Banned

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    pardon the vitriolic rhetoric
    its a chemical thing
     
  22. Gustav Banned Banned

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    is granty still around?
     
  23. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    No, he said he'd leave.

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