Objective reality: How do we know it exists ?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Enmos, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    No, Enmos. Please don't take that guru role with me. You see the point I was making, please respond to that.
     
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  3. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    No, Enmos. Please show me how it backs up your assertion. I already explained the problem with it.
     
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  5. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    You're now arguing against a metaphysical theory because it is arrogant. And yes, it has done away with other selves, but not the self as you asserted.
     
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  7. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    Can you show us why? Also the point at least on my part, but perhaps also Greenberg's, of bring up solipsism is to point out the assumptions you are making. Solipsism is very hard to prove wrong. It would also be very hard to prove right. What it does do is point out that you are making assumptions that are very hard to prove, in fact I would say impossible, to prove. Some people call that faith.

    And pointing out that a universe that is a single self is weird - which seems to me to be your position - or arrogant hardly constitutes proof.

    The universe is weird, whatever its nature. And arrogance is irrelevent.
     
  8. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    I agree with that, but you obviously do not.
    I don't know what exactly was your point. Unless you are saying that because we can dream of anything, everything 'outside' could as well be in our head.
    I just can't fathom why you don't except my explanation of dreaming..
     
  9. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    One's own self is the only one one cannot "reason away".
     
  10. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    I truly don't see the problem. Can't you explain further what you meant ?
     
  11. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    That was sarcastic.
     
  12. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    Actually there are trends in modern science to do this. The self qualia. The illusion that one exists is an undercurrent philosophy out there. Also cases are made by both religious and scientific people that the notion of a self - here - that looks at things - there is false. This is replaced by ideas of phenomena. I just read a book by a physicist who was putting forward the idea that NOWS are the only things that exist. Not selves. Not objects. Simply Nows.
     
  13. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    What is so special about the self that remains ? Why can the others be done away with but not your own ?

    I don't think I am making assumptions that are very hard to prove. Most it (if not all) is mainstream science.

    How can the universe be weird ? In comparison to what ? It may be weird to us but that, again, is completely subjective.
     
  14. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Why not, what's so special about it ?
     
  15. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    First sentence makes an assertion about what some people believe. WE can't know objective reality exists. You disagree. To back this up you talk about the fallilbility of the sense. Your last sentence asserts that the sense can only sense a specific portion of reality. Except you did not prove this. What you showed was that IF the senses are reacting to a real, external, objective reality, we know the senses distort and select. At no point in any of this did you show that they actually are in any way in contact with objective reality. By admitting that they distort, you open the door for wondering how we can be sure they do not MAKE UP. That they are not creative functions rather than perceiving ones. again like in dreams. I think it is a weak argument and not well thought out. Fine. It's in an internet discussion forum. So, of course, we all do that. But that was what I was focusing on.

    objective reality exists
    the sense are fallible
    is an odd jump.
    And if you read the concluding sentence it seems part of some other argument, not one designed to show that senses are in fact registering something objective.
     
  16. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    Why is that necessary?
    Mainstream science has axioms that is accepts. It has not proved them. It starts, generally, with a kind of realism. Which is a specific philosophical stance.


    Precisely, so your thinking that solipsism is arrogant is completely irrelevent.
     
  17. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Did you not read this part ?

    The senses thing was just to start at the beginning (like I said before).


    By the way, if you continue this solipsism thing and keep arguing that the senses make up their own signals I won't be answering those posts. Sorry.. but that is just too far out. I was hoping to discuss how we can know objective reality exists, not what idiotic alternatives we can come up with.
     
  18. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    I don't understand that question in relation to my questions.

    Well yea maybe, but isn't any view ? That, then, is what I believe in.

    No I don't think it's arrogant.
     
  19. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    There are so many selves in this universe that for some people it can be logical to reason away all the other selves, sometimes.

    But in reality, there is only one God/life, who controls everybody. Everybody is that God, or self.

    When buddha realized that he was a no body, he did away with his self too... or so he thought.
     
  20. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    If solipsism is true there is no God.
     
  21. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, but it isn't true. It's only true for some people. Nothing is true, so everything can be true.
     
  22. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    You say it in a strange way but I think there is actually some common ground here. I never thought I would say that to you lol

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  23. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I did. It simply continues along the same line and ends up asserting that what we experience is subjective reality. Which is not objective reality. So I see nowhere in there arguments backing up that we are actually in contact with objective reality. In fact, especially given the last sentence, I see a potential argument that we cannot know, since we are left with subjective reality. Did you read what you wrote?


    Odd that an issue that has been discussed by philosophers for at least hundreds of years is simply idiotic to you. Second, duh, Enmos. If you can make a good argument AGAINST solipsism, you have taken strong steps to showing that we can know objective reality exists. Can't you see how solipsism is almost a necessary issue to raise given your topic. If we can't know there is an objective reality than what is it we are experiencing? One answer is solipsism.

    If solipsism is an idiotic idea you should be able to show why. I have seen no signs that you can do this. Calling it arrogant and now idiotic are not arguments and you know this.

    You could use solipsism to help make your case. Or you can make a post like the one above. No need to quit, you're fired.

    Why don't you just ask Myles to tell you how we know there is an objective reality? Let me clear the space so you two can hang out.

    Bye.
     

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