Vegetarianism Based On Animal Rights

Originally Posted by Norsefire
...the animals we commonly eat lack any sort of sapience or self awareness, I do not feel sorry for eating them. ”

Of course a animal dont know if its about to be killed... but i highly suspect it sinses "fear" as its bein treeted diferently on slaughter day... an any fear assoiated wit the slaughter is inhumane (much less the pane of bein killed inhumanely).!!!

Origionaly posted by Norsfire
“ Eating meat isn't immoral. ”

Isnt "moral" what each individual may or may not determine it to be.???

 

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Actually, in Syria we own a farm and I have spent time with farm animals. I've seen a sheep slaughtered right in front of my eyes.

And enjoyed it that night. Although, we're not quite as crude as some others; we pray for the animal before we eat it.

Also, at least according to the information I was reading into, all animals except for primates and a select other few lack sapience or self awareness

We don't have to do alot of things.

No, it isn't. What do you owe to the chickens? Wolves don't apologize. And don't give me that moral bullshit.

You're HUMAN. If ANY obligation, it's to Humanity.

Yes. And we're killing lesser creatures to eat. Sounds perfectly fine to me.

 

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Yes, because prayer is somehow justifies taking another life. Hmmm... reminds me of those Muslim extremists in Iraq that loved to hurl mortars at us.

Lesser creatures? They feel pain as well. They know when they are in danger. Just because they can't express to us in words doesn't mean they are lesser creatures. They bleed just like we do.

 

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That's not what I'm saying. I do not believe in prayer. I was merely pointing out that we are more grateful than other cultures.

Tell that to the lions, tigers, wolves, alligators............hum de dum, you get my point.

 

Actually, I don't. They are carnivores. We are omnivores. Humans can live without meat, and thus without killing for food; carnivors can't. And fact is humans have killed more animals than animals do! And there are more of them then there are of us. We don't NEED animal meat. Therefore there is no logical reason for us to continue kill them for food.

 

There's no logical reason to

- drink soda
- watch movies
- eat cheesecake

You're leaving out desire. Also, plenty of people have incorporated meats into their diet and they help immensely in their good health, protein, etc, especially lean meats

Quit the apologetics. It's tiring and disgusting; no offense.

 

I'm just pointing out that people don't need meat. If you like meat, what is stopping you from killing your dog or cat and eating them? Honest question.

 

Nothing. Although there's an emotional connection to your pet, for one, and second such meat is not appealing, at least to me.

People don't need alot of things. People don't need to even be free.

Eating meat is perfectly fine. It's quite absurd to deny yourself meat because of so-called "animal rights"; we're not the only animals that eat meat. We're just the only ones that think we have to apologize for it.......for whatever reason.

 

Sigh... OK... giving up. One last thing though... watch this and tell me if the way we treat those animals is morally acceptable.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4

 

Oh no, the chickens are uncomfortable.

I'm not through with the entire video yet so I'll get back to you; but honestly, survival of the fittest.

Also chickens descend from dinosaurs, still compassionate now?

Edit: I've finished seeing the video. If that's true, it does make me uncomfortable; more because of the animals being unable to do anything about it. I would probably feel less sorry for humans in that condition

OK, your point is accepted. But still, one can support treating animals well without necessarily never eating meat.

Free-range farm animals, which means they're given freedom and open space, and are able to eat when they want and, necessarily, what they want........in other words, they live comfortably, are more productive and hopefully becomes the norm for farming.

I support treating animals more humanely, but I'm not giving up meat.

 

Branch: Vegetarianism based on animal rights

I thought I would branch off from that thread, in the free thoughts subforum, to discuss a more specific issue

After seeing exactly what the animals [here in the US] go through, it is certainly appalling; in my native Syria, most farms are family farms and we do not treat animals this way at all, so I had no idea how exactly they were treated here. Although, then, we're discussing an entirely different issue: how we treat animals, and not necessarily whether or not we eat meat

I entirely support treating animals more humanely..........but I'm not going to give up eating meat. Yes, we should give them fresh air, and a certain degree of freedom to grow and interact as they please. i.e, treat them humanely. However, it's still morally permissable to eat them, in my opinion; of course it's ideal that the methods used would be painless

I simply want to point out the distinction between "I support more humane treatment" and "I'm never gonna eat meat". The latter is absurd, because no other creatures apologize for their eating of meat, and eating meat is eating, which isn't wrong

 

Didn't the branch vegetarians have a complex out near Waco?

Anyway I generally agree, boring as that may be.

 

OK. Finally we find middle ground! I'm happy. lol. Well, for some that give up meat it is as a protest to those who commit this animal abuse. Most vegetarians I know would gladly continue eating meat if the animals raised for food were treated humanely.

 

it doesn't stop a lot of people. it's quite common practice in asia. now, i'm not sure if they keep them as pets, but i know they do eat them. the aspect of not eating a pet is just centered around an emotional attachment. if you wanted to you could get emotionally attached to a pig or a cow too.

 

Okay, I'll have a go at it.

You're also not likely to find animals apologizing for killing, raping, or stealing from each other, or any number of other activities that are widely considered immoral by modern society. I fail to see how the actions of other animals are relevant to human morality. If the (non-human) animal kingdom is what you want to base your morality on, you must want to live in a very wild, brutal world.

Also, most predator animals don't have a choice anyway; their only options are to eat meat or starve. Humans can live perfectly well without eating meat. Eating meat is entirely a luxury for us. So basically, by eating meat you are saying that it's okay to kill animals so that you can derive pleasure. Not pleasure in their death per se, of course, but you don't mind that they have to die in order for you to partake in your enjoyment. Of course your situation might be different if you are a peasant farmer or something who genuinely needs to eat meat in order to survive, but the vast majority of us are not in that situation.

It has always struck me as somewhat strange that people are okay with killing an animal so that they can enjoy the unnecessary pleasure of eating it, but bothered by the prospect of it suffering first. Kind of like a hitman who doesn't have a problem with killing innocent people, so long as he gets to shoot them in the head so that they die cleanly and don't suffer. Obviously you have enough empathy with your victim that you don't want it to suffer, but you don't have enough empathy to actually avoid killing it for what are essentially recreational purposes. If you're bothered by it suffering, why aren't you bothered by needlessly killing it?

 

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Isnt "moral" what each individual may or may not determine it to be.???

But dont you have the final say in what you determine you'r morals to be.???

 

Hum de dum........I was in the farm for extended periods of time every time I visited. I did view the animals.

I also never said they weren't conscious; I said they weren't self aware or sapient.

They aren't sapient. They are sentient, but not sapient.

You're taking it to the extreme; you aren't permitting anybody to do ANYTHING if it "impacts" something else, to the point of absurdity. I want to eat. I want to eat meat. There is NOTHING wrong with that.

If they could, they wouldn't apologize.

This has nothing to do with "egotism"; you are taking this pacifism too far. You're alive, you hunt, you survive. You eat meat. Well, I do. Right and wrong has nothing to do with it.

This is absurd. I usually enjoy debating you but if you are going to repeat this nonsense I'm not wasting my time on this topic - our only obligation is the survival of the human species.

I mean, when you use antiseptic you're killing bacteria; when you eat veggies, you're killing something. When you eat meat, you're killing animals. What about cockroaches? Should we not kill them too? How about tapeworms?

James R, you are a human being; use your wisdom for the well being of all entities but not to the extent that you deny yourself indulgence.

I am entirely appalled by factory farming - however, although I would support a movement for the more humane treatment of [sentient] animals, there is a supreme difference between that, and simply denying meat altogether. Eating meat is not subject to morals.

If you don't want to eat meat because you don't like it, fine; but don't bring morality into this.

Further, it appears that you're arguing against meat consumption because it "kills", although that assumes killing is inherently wrong.

What if we raised animals that lacked a brain? Or, my point is, animals that lacked a "mind", because their brains would be removed/altered by drugs; i.e, raising "braindead" animals.

Then we're not "killing" anything.

 

The moral imperative to feed the population far exceeds the one to be pacifistic toward non-human species (and there isn't even one)

Yes, you will say "but we don't have to eat meat". We don't have to do alot of things. Human beings enjoy choice; and human comfort is first and foremost

And don't bring "egotism" into this; not everybody that wants to order a Big mac and fries at Mickey D's is an evil egotist

And who doesn't love juicy steak...

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