Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    What next? Probably having solid hulls so the crews of starships can breath, if I know scott...
     
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  3. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

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    It occurs to me, that if there is no data about something specific, then we cant assume it exists and think of an effective attack to destroy it, right? Does this seem fair enough? So if there is no data to say this system exists, then we cant just assume it does, can we?

    Also, a question about SW space travel... There's typical speeds... like dogfight maneuvering speeds, and the smaller the ship, the faster and more maneuverable, right? And a small craft that can jump to hyperspace can cross distances faster than say an ISD, right?? So does this mean you have normal speed and hyperspeed or is there some in-between speeds too ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2009
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  5. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Star Wars sublight is the Ion Drive for the most part... and it's DEATHLY slow compared to Trek's Impulse. In Trek, ships at Impulse can move and maneuver at speeds approaching 80% the speed of light at maximum impulse, simply by creating a limited warp field to reduce their apparent mass. Standard maximum impulse is more along the lines of 50% the speed of light... far faster than even Luke was flying during the trench run in the Death Star, and he was booking.
     
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  7. ProphetofWisdom Almighty Tallest Registered Senior Member

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    Hmm... yes far faster then the X-wings who were fighting near a giant battlestation 160km in diameter and who didn't want to crash into said giant station or fly away from the fight. And then faster then Luke who need time to gain a lock even with the Force... hmm, yes, so because all those times we see SW ships moving slow on screen they can't move faster, but then we see all that close range ST combat to and they don't seem to zoom out of sight like they would.
    Maybe because they make the ships look like they move slow so you can see them? And then the Death Star seemed to move pretty fast for something its size.
     
  8. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

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    370
    That is not very helpful in determining if the SW weapons can keep up with warp drive. The reason this is brought up is because all the turbo laser cannons would need to track a target and rotate fast enough to get a shot off and if they cannot rotate fast enough, those weapons are useless. Any torpedo's launched would need to be warp-capable to catch a trek ship since they could just jump to warp and travel out of range.

    So my thought is that hyperspace is only useful for escape since it cant be used to travel through unmapped space and the wisest escape plan for trek ships would be into unmapped space, basically towards their own territory. I think the biggest disadvantage for these enormous SW ships is the same as trying to chase a harrier with an SR-71. Trek ships are fast enough to evade weapons fire but too slow to try to chase with a hyper drive.
     
  9. ProphetofWisdom Almighty Tallest Registered Senior Member

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    297
    Will I wasn't talking about Warp speed there since it was Impulse being used.
    But I agree Trek is going to give the Empire a beating.
    I have to say that my stance on SW firepower before has changed if we use only the movies, since the wank-a-tons appear to be the EU.
     
  10. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Well, if we allow even a slight progression of Technology, we know that Starfleet has developed, but not standardized, Quantum Slipstream drives... which allow near-instantaneous travel from one end of the galaxy to the other...
     
  11. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    370
    Yeah. I figure the SW vs ST is a good debate, and SW has some hard core brute strength, but if they lack maneuverability, then Trek can just dance around out of range and do random fly-bys until they find something effective. The smaller enemies could be be lured into groups and crippled a bunch at a time until there are few left and the strays picked off individually. However, if the shields on an ISD is as strong as they claim, then Fleet weapons would be like throwing nerf objects at it. So basically, it would be like a game of cat and mouse... with Trek unable to defeat SW but too quick to be caught by them.
     
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Hardly - remember, the shields in Trek have withstood such fun things as flying meters over the the surface of a star, flying to within a few kilometers of a pulsar (perhaps one of the most energetic objects in the known universe), and flying into, and then back out of, a black hole. The "Outrageous Okona" falsehood is just that, a falsehood. The entire incident was crafted by a being with ABSOLUTE control over energy and matter... meaning he made the ships systems react however he wanted, hence such a low power blast downing the shields - and they even state, it's not that the shields were overwhelmed - rather, they were scrambled and distorted, making it difficult to reassemble them.

    Treks shields have shown the ability to withstand impacts that have not only shattered, but almost vaporized a guided, artificially constructed asteroid made of much stronger materials than a standard asteroid, who's only purpose was to obliterate a planet. A handful of photon torpedoes all but obliterated it, and would have if it were a normal asteroid - the same object that rammed the ISD bridge tower and cleaved it off.

    And to think, Trek shields withstand impacts from photons on a regular basis... yeah, I'd wager Trek shields are equal to, if not far more powerful than, Wars shields.
     
  13. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    370
    Personally I'd rather it not come to withstanding an offensive attack, and then we don't have to worry about it. But looking at the weapons themselves:
    Trek's torpedos can catch ya unless u jump to hyperspace and then if you're that far gone, you're not a threat. But once a target is designated, even the smallest most maneuverable craft won't have a chance cuzz torps could just be programmed for proximity detonation.
    Phaser banks can fire in all directions and concentrate a sustained blast to precise diameter and power levels, configurable quickly enough even during battle. Wars weapons that fire from a barrel need to be aimed, so they need to track a target, be able to follow it, and fire at moving targets, which won't be effective without predicting the target's path and firing ahead of it. I think Fleet could come out of warp in range of a destroyer, fire a folley and jump to warp before SW weapons could swing into position to fire in their direction.

    A Destroyer's only hope would be to hyperspace the hell out of dodge or get pecked to death or worse. Especially with their hyperdrive's vulnerability, it would be best to 'GIT' while they can or get immobilized so they can't escape.
     
  14. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Thing is, they don't HAVE to come out of warp - they can fire torpedoes, fore and aft, while at warp. Warp Strafe ftw

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  15. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

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    Yeppers, I read that. Plus many episodes have them maneuvering and attacking while at warp.
     
  16. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Yeah, Warp Strafe for the win would work if ST weapons were even One hundredth as powerful as SW weapons. To give you a picture: It's like comparing .44M(ST) to 120mm APSDFSDU. The .44M rips the shreds out of the bullet proof vests(ST Shields and armor) however it simply cannot peirce the armor of a M1 tank(SW Shields and Armor)


    ST has some of the best Tactical minds in Sci-Fi, however they cannot hope to try to deal strategically with an enemy with the movement and speed capabilities of SW.

    Tactical speed, SW capital ships are slow. Of course their main jobs is simply smash their way through defenses and deliver massive firepower ant troops to target worlds supplying the enemy.

    Strategic speed: By ST's perception SW ships can move almost infinitely faster than them via hyperdrive. ST takes and estimate 70 years to cross 1/4 the galaxy with Warp. The Borg took nearly 6 months to reach Earth the first time. The Federation could detect them coming for weeks. Even the Voth would have taken some time to cross the entire Galaxy and they were the race with the fastest Transwarp. Now in SW it takes a mediocre vessel only a few days to travels from one end of the SW Galaxy to the other and it is 50% longer than our own.

    ST has no way of detecting a Hyperspace vessel until it breaks out of hyperspace. Since the vessel only needs to maintain a 2 times planetary radius distance from most worlds on Hyperspace Break out. That gives ST virtually no warning of an attack. This means only defenses on the planet or in wide orbit would even to enter battle. Now if SW sends the Death Star that means one destroyed planet sending a loud and clear message to every other world. The Empire is your only protection from annihilation.
     
  17. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Unfortunately you are assuming that SW would be engaging in fleet destruction. Best way to cripple a fleet, destroy it's supplies. Bases cannot move under except the direst of circumstances and even that nearly destroys them. Frieghters have the manuverbility of a cow stuck in mud. And don't get me started on planets.....

    With Sw strategic speed advantage they can strike all of these with zero warning. ST could signal for help, but in minutes the damage is already done. A Base wrecked, a frieghter captured, or a Planets captured/razed/destroyed.

    In the case of defending fleets these ships will soon find out that they can either dance and avoid fire, but watch their protectee get destroyed or they can try to draw fire by staying still and buying the protectee precious seconds.
     
  18. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Sorry, but since the 200 gigatons was created by OBSERVING canon material and was made into G canon by Lucas you have no say in what you think is the firepwer of SW vessels.


    It should be of note however that if we went by the strictest rule of canon for both gneres and discarded EU (despite it being considered part of Canon) that the Asteroid Vaporization scenes of ESB provide more than enough power to take care of the Warp engine specs given by Data in True Q. Since there is no way a vessel can have more than 100% efficency and tat Shields could not possibly be 100% of the total energy a ship has......
     
  19. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Oh god, this tired argument again?

    Scott, it's been disproven how many times? Our photon torpedoes put out enough power where ONE torpedo could obliterate an asteroid comparable to the one that CLEAVED an ISD's bridge tower off. It's been done, on screen, and we've seen both, on screen, highest cannon. End of story. Your shields could not withstand the impact of an asteroid to the bridge, and your ISD lost the bridge. The Intrepid class starship can obliterate any natural-form asteroid of similar size, and was able to all but vaporize an artificially made asteroid, designed specifically to be difficult to destroy and sent on a collision course with a planet.
     
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Mhm, and show me a SINGLE. FUCKING. SCREENSHOT. showing 200 gigaton weaponry...

    right.

    Meanwhile, I can show you HUNDREDS demonstrating sub-megaon weapons fire from your ships...

    And again, what makes you think the total power output of a ship has any effect on it's shield strength?

    Take a 4 inch thick steel plate and shoot it with an armor piercing round - what happens? It go right thru the plate. Now, angle a 2 inch thick steel plate so the bullet hits at a steep angle and fire again - this time, it ricochets off... woah, what a concept. The WEAKER plate was MORE EFFECTIVE.

    Trek shields are not simple "absorption" shields... they operate via Graviton generators... similar to the tractor beam. Thus, it's safe to assume that trek Shields work by deflecting/redirecting at least a PORTION of the energy, Absorbing another portion, and spreading the rest out among the grid.

    Oh, and you can't walk and/or fly thru Trek shields btw... unlike your silly shields.

    And by the "strictest rules of cannon", a single Defiant class starship has more firepower than a fleet of your best ISD's.
     
  21. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    Indeed...the Defiants' only limitation in a planetary bombardment is their relatively small area of effect. But one of em would get the job done

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    Last edited: Aug 10, 2009
  22. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

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    Well no, I wasn't assuming anything. I was contemplating a defense against a potential attack. First, before you jump the gun, you gotta take a look at the situation. There's nothing stated that SW has any data about the locations of any Trek worlds and vice versa. First thing either side needs to do is reconnaissance, but since you're contemplating attacking strategic locations, your first objective is to locate them.

    Meanwhile, we'll operate under the rule that "you gotte BRING ass to GET ass." So while your fleets are out in the Trek verse showing their hand, they'll be studied carefully to find their weaknesses. We'll gladly let you give us a ship so we can analyze everything about it. I don't believe Trek's strength lies in its weapons power or speed... it lies in their ability to analyze situations, strengths and weaknesses, etc, and to figure out how to deal with it. And we have some of the most technical and strategic minds to come up with logical assessments...

    So yeah, this overconfidence BS you SW fans seem to be cursed with, you amuse me with how straight-forward and half-assed your scenarios are: "We can go fast and blast stuff and the Federations weapons cant beat us!" That's so ridiculous. I don't think I've seen anyone mention capturing ships to research a damned thing... just shoot it all. I'm wondering now how this is worth a Trek fan's time. The obvious response to 'we're faster and more powerful' is 'we'll just take your technology.' If you claim we cant use this tactic, that's bullshit because you do not dictate to your opponent what the Borg cannot assimilate. That's like ST side dictating to you that the Force won't be affective on anyone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2009
  23. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Easy enough in SW. You send out hyperspace equip probe driods. These droids are programmed to make minijumps for as far as they scan and send back the required coordinates. Combine this with simple telescopic astronomy and advanced gravometric sensors and SW would have a reasonable map of the universe in a quick hurry. Contact with any number of races would grant them access to a glatic map, or at least general location of major planets.

    But you have a problem. John MCClane does the same thing in the Die Hard movies. He analyzes the enemiy and pulls them apart using their strenghts and weaknesses. However no one could possibly claim that someone like John McClane could go toe to toe with Megatron. There is a vast discrepicency in ability here.

    Okay, here's the deal. SW ships are that much more powerful. Hell even and X-wing is a credible threat vs a Borg Cube (along the sdame lines as a Sovereign class vessel) Why? becuase the SW usniverse has matured and completely reliable technologies. SW shields do not operate on frequencies. They are never flickering like ST shields are. SW vessels are heavily armored and even more heavily armed. SW capital vessels are built for war.

    As for SW taking ST technology, they don't need to, their own is vastly superior. Transporters are socially unacceptable as they basically kill a person and make a copy of them in a distant location. It might be picked up after the war as a way of moving frieght, but never living beings. Hell, SW even has replicators thought they are only used in construction and truly mass production. Why? Becuase in the SW universe they believe in a robust trade economy. Something that the common replicator seems to repress.


    Now, considering that a ISD can with one of it sixty Turbolasers completely destroy several GCS if they were in a row, I doubt a Borg cube is any threat to such a vessel. Capturing TIE fighters is a possibility, but those vessels lack shields, are thinly armored and possess the simplest of weapons of SW universe. Still thanks to their nuetronium impregnated hull they are immune to transporters. The only reason they work so well is that they are so numerous. Vessels with shields have shields on par or superior to a GCS, and yes that means A-wings and bigger. These shields as described before do not modulate, meaning no weakness for the borg to exploit. So how can they capture them? Simple they can't.
     
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